Muslims 'to outnumber traditional churchgoers'

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.

Yeah IceTea, excellent point, in Islam its only between you and the Creator of All, a direct one-to-one connection, you can repent, ask for forgiveness, pray and everything else without needing a third-party.

I dont think its fair to judge how Christians behave if you are not one, and same with muslims. At the end, both christians and muslims are humans who are not perfect.

I also agree with umkhalid, the number of followers doesnt indicate anything but a number. It wouldnt show anything more than a statistic it wouldnt explain the religion. Its the quality of the followers the count.

Originally Posted by STING

I put those videos there because thats not the Jesus (PBUH) we believe in, just as those pathetic cartoons indicate nothing but racism and disrespect. Also, as I expected, none of the Christians on this board actually felt angry, and thats what I have been trying to say! Sadly, thanks to the culture, media, tv and movies, Christians don't find it disrespectful when their own people make such stupid and pathetic videos of Jesus (PBUH)!

You keep on trying to indicate that I disrespect Jesus or Christianity, but believing in all prior Prophets is a corner stone of Islam, so you can't be any wrong.

I simply feel pity on Christians and feel anger towards those who create videos like those shared above. And this is how every Christian should feel!

Prophets and god-sent religions aren't something to joke about, draw cartoons of, make comedy shows upon and above all lie about! We had one Irani Muslim write a book about Islam and the Prophet full of idiocy and false information, now that man lives in UK, this is how it should be, discussing religions and prophets is one thing, but limits can't be crossed

You disrespected MY religion by putting those clips on here.

It's not very difficult to grab the essence of this one sentence, but if you are having difficulty, I'll explain it again.

Thanks to the mods who removed them from this thread.

Originally Posted by IceTea

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.

I have no barrier in communicating with God. I'm perfectly capable of immersing myself in prayer all alone, just like you.

Originally Posted by IceTea

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.

Hmm, well, I don't know what you mean by 'sprirituality'. Following a set of instructions can be very spiritual. But it can also mean going through the motions. It depends.

And I would say that a stairway is not a barrier, nor is a bridge. We believe that God lives in us, literally, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We call that "sanctifying grace". Can't get closer than that!

Originally Posted by IceTea

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.

in christianity,true love for God is not manifested just by praying five times. but doing good unto others. that's what jesus told us anyway. what we do unto others, good or bad, we are doing it with him.

I agree, praying five times a day may or may not bring you closer to God. If you are simply "going through the motions" because it becomes a habit then really how is that bringing you closer? You gotta "feel" it inside. Of course there are men and women who pray five times a day and feel God always....I think good deeds coupled with prayer means more. And you should do these good deeds simply for the sake of helping someone and not because it will give you an honored and beloved place in Heaven. For me, when people go around doing good because they think it will automatically give them front row tickets to God is being quite hypocritical...same as praying and only doing it for "habit" sake is being hypocritical also.....

I would much rather be a simple woman....who does good deeds because it is the right thing to do to help your fellow human being and sit in the back of a church than be the richest woman alive, sitting up front because she wishes to be seen for her "good works".....

Originally Posted by Thalia

You disrespected MY religion by putting those clips on here.

It's not very difficult to grab the essence of this one sentence, but if you are having difficulty, I'll explain it again.

Thanks to the mods who removed them from this thread.

Alright, then would you agree that all TV channels, including YouTube, disrespect your religion as they show that kind of videos?

Btw, have a look at the comments made in those videos, you will notice how pissed the Christians are after watching videos (NOT), and how much they protested against YouTube (NOT)

Let me share a comment made by a muslim to one of those videos:

hassanhashaam (3 days ago)

I am a Muslim but I am shocked to see this, If u can not respect the great personalities then please dont insult them. I beleive that Jesus is prophit of God but those who believe him as son of God will please stop this non-sense to prevent from his insult. Please

I wanna share some extremely disrespectful comments made by guys called "mike" or other supposedly Christian names, but since you find it disrespectful, I won't share it, but you can read them anyhow

great! we must be a greater religion than we thought.
every single mike, tom, john, peter....are christians. because they have christian names. logic.

ahmed is to muslim
peter is to christian.

^^

STING, what you don't understand is that this stuff goes on all over the place in every forum.

We have had years of experience of watching this kind of thing and far worse examples of it. From "Piss Christ" to "The Last Temptation of Christ" to the "DaVinci Code" to any number of other things.

We protest the more important of them, but there's always another one.

The problem isn't this or that particular YouTube. The problem is a loss of the sense of Holiness in the secularized West, a hatred of the very idea of religion and of God.

Our hands are full with trying for years and years to get a handle on basic things like abortion and the fact that kids are not even allowed to acknowledge God publicly in our schools.

I'm GLAD that Muslims want to protest these kinds of things and I think we ought to join together more instead of quarrelling with each other.

Posting links to offensive videos seems to be a strange way of protesting, what say you Jeff ?

Originally Posted by Jeff

^^

STING, what you don't understand is that this stuff goes on all over the place in every forum.

We have had years of experience of watching this kind of thing and far worse examples of it. From "Piss Christ" to "The Last Temptation of Christ" to the "DaVinci Code" to any number of other things.

We protest the more important of them, but there's always another one.

The problem isn't this or that particular YouTube. The problem is a loss of the sense of Holiness in the secularized West, a hatred of the very idea of religion and of God.

Our hands are full with trying for years and years to get a handle on basic things like abortion and the fact that kids are not even allowed to acknowledge God publicly in our schools.

I'm GLAD that Muslims want to protest these kinds of things and I think we ought to join together more instead of quarrelling with each other.

Brother Jeff, I am not the one quarreling, and you can see that, but to solve a problem, we must first accept that a problem exists, and some members here are blaming me for disrespecting Christianity and Jesus (PBUH), which I am doing the opposite of!

You agree that this non-sense and worst exists in the secular West, but then we have so many secular Muslims countries don't we? Besides, not running a country based on religious teachings doesn't mean we go on and disrespect religious figures.

As a Muslim, I am proud of how we boycotted the Danes after their pathetic cartoons although they live all the way in Europe, but thats how we show our love to our Prophet, and thats how we stick to our religion!

And I challenge you to find a single disrespectful image, article, video, cartoon or anything like that of Jesus (PBUH) published in any Islamic country in any way!

In fact, Jesus or any other Prophet, even Moses (PBUH).

Trust me, if I find a guy dressed the way he is dress, acting the way he is acting, roaming around singing on streets in Muscat, I will make sure he is put in jail and sued well and made an example of other with that kind of sick minds!

I would like to think that there are still good Christians in the West...yes there are those who are atheists or who could care less about any type of religion but I like to believe in the common good of humankind. Typically in the West there is the separation of church and state. Our society...laws are not immersed in some ways as seen in Islamic countries. For me it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Brother STING:

I think that's a great attitude and a great start.

But part of disrespecting is asking people, "Do you feel I have disrespected you?"

Because sometimes we do it without meaning to, we don't realize it.

I agree that it is rare for Muslims to disrespect the figure of Jesus, because they revere him also.

But I think it sometimes happens that Muslims disrespect other aspects of our religions that they do not revere but that we consider to be holy.

I agree in a general way that Muslim culture and tradition cultivates a deep respect for even other people's ideas of what is holy...heck, I've even seen Muslims come to our churches to pray in front of statues...that might be confused from your point of view, but it certainly shows that they have a respect even for other people's ideas of what is holy.

When I said we should work together, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about people in general. And I'm talking to Christians as much as I'm talking to Muslims.

We need to work together so that Western countries can begin to recapture a respect for the Holy. And that will be good for everybody in the world. It will be good for everybody, no matter which religion is true.

Originally Posted by marianna

I would like to think that there are still good Christians in the West...yes there are those who are atheists or who could care less about any type of religion but I like to believe in the common good of humankind. Typically in the West there is the separation of church and state. Our society...laws are not immersed in some ways as seen in Islamic countries. For me it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Marianna, I totally agree with you, 100%! But all am saying is separation of religion from government does not mean we could allow for people gone astray to start making jokes of Jesus (someone you call God) publicly! There should be limits right? There should be regulations right?

Christians in general sadly have lost their way, and even the ones who still follow their religion, fail to stop others from mocking their God!

The Danes and others have been publishing cartoons and movies to disrespect our Prophet (PBUH), isn't it easy for us to disrespect the figure of Jesus (PBUH) or others?

Its not about government, its about the people! We as Muslim don't and will not accept any insult to any Prophet or religion, so why is it that Christians have decided to accept it?

When Jesus comes back, we Muslims would be the first to support him, what would the Christians say when he asks why none protested disrespect against him and laughed on him? You would say we don't mix government with religion?

Originally Posted by Jeff

Brother STING:

I think that's a great attitude and a great start.

But part of disrespecting is asking people, "Do you feel I have disrespected you?"

I only posted those videos to prove to that the figure of Jesus (PBUH) has become a joke in the West! If someone felt its disrespectful, then I apologize, but I find it extremely hypocritical for one to protest me sharing the video to show my anger against those who disrespect Jesus (PBUH) by making and then laughing on such videos, but find it normal when their fellow American TV Channels and Websites publicly make such video it and expose millions around the world to it!

Originally Posted by STING

I only posted those videos to prove to that the figure of Jesus (PBUH) has become a joke in the West! If someone felt its disrespectful, then I apologize, but I find it extremely hypocritical for one to protest me sharing the video to show my anger against those who disrespect Jesus (PBUH) by making and then laughing on such videos, but find it normal when their fellow American TV Channels and Websites publicly make such video it and expose millions around the world to it!

law of the country in the west is not tied to religion.
there are many christians in the west, but not everybody is a christian.

^^

I agree with a lot of this STING, but I don't agree that we are blameworthy for "failing to stop" mockery of religion. How would we do it? There just aren't enough of us and we don't have enough power in our societies.

And it's an enormous problem.

But there is something else, too.

Christians in a very deep way expect that they will be mocked and spit on and hunted and killed. And that everything about us and what we hold to be holy will be cursed and trodden underfoot.

And that this is precisely the road to Triumph. If you saw the movie, "The Passion of the Christ" you can get some sense of what I am talking about. It is precisely in being mocked and spat on and tortured and crucified that Christ triumphs.

They say, "You said You were a King! We'll see what kind of a King You are!" And they make a crown for Him out of thorns and stick it on His head and put a silly reed in His hand for a sceptre and spit at Him and beat Him. And the Roman governor scourges Him bloody and takes Him out on a balcony and shows Him to the crowd:

"Ecce Homo!"

he says.

"Behold the Man!"

And we behold Him just like that and reproduce this image of mockery, which is an image of Glory and we call it just that: an "Ecce Homo" a "Behold the Man"


Ecce Homo

And as He is being tortured to death and mocked by the taunting crowd, He prays, "Forgive them, Father, for they don't understand what they are doing."

Well, we want to stop the mockery. But if we can't, then God will use it to bring a greater good. And so we can glory in that, too.

Originally Posted by STING

I only posted those videos to prove to that the figure of Jesus (PBUH) has become a joke in the West! If someone felt its disrespectful, then I apologize, but I find it extremely hypocritical for one to protest me sharing the video to show my anger against those who disrespect Jesus (PBUH) by making and then laughing on such videos, but find it normal when their fellow American TV Channels and Websites publicly make such video it and expose millions around the world to it!

No, no, I defended you, remember!

I understood your point.

But I'm just saying that if you think about it, some people do express their opinions in a way which seems disrespectful. *I* don't mind, but some people do.

I saw a comment in a discussion board saying, "The Bible is a mess!" and another one saying, "Probably they put this in the Bible so they could abuse boys"...things like that.

Well, for me, that's what people think and this a Muslim forum...I don't mind.

But you can see how people might find the manner of speech offensive.

I'm not complaining, but I am saying that ALL of us would do better to try to constantly remember how it feels to the other guy and how it impacts on his understanding of the Holy.

Because I think the reason why there is a Muslim tradition of respect for other religions--even if Muslims think they are wrong, even if they are doing 'shirk', the worst of all sins--is that you have to first RESPECT the idea of the Holy and then develop it.

So you don't mock other people's understanding of the Holy even if it is wrong. Good principle, don't you agree?

Originally Posted by minerva

law of the country in the west is not tied to religion.
there are many christians in the west, but not everybody is a christian.

I know that minerva, but that justifies the such disrespectful videos and images? Why don't the Christians show anger and protest? Only because someone stops believing in Christianity it doesn't mean he/she could start laughing on Jesus and making funny videos!

Originally Posted by Jeff

I saw a comment in a discussion board saying, "The Bible is a mess!" and another one saying, "Probably they put this in the Bible so they could abuse boys"...things like that.

I have seen posts saying The Holy Qur'an orders the killing and murder of non-Muslims, and many other disrespectful and insulting posts.

I will be honest, I find many things in the Bible that I don't agree with or understand, many thins that contradict other things in the Bible! But thats not the point, and I don't mean to disrespect.

You have been the only member who actually explained logically and helped me a lot understand Christianity!

But the point here isn't about others disrespecting Jesus or Christianity, its about Christians (or who stopped being Christians) disrespecting and Jesus and Christians in a country with mostly Christians! In a country where the politicians use the Bible to swear in their offices! In a country where judges use Bibles to swear in courts...etc

not all politicians swear on the bible. they get given a choice.

Well, you know I learn a lot from you, too, STING. I've admired you ever since we discussed pornography in the Bible way back when Liberty was running free!

Okay, but my point is: it ISN'T Christians, it is people whose ancestors may have been Christians at most.

My mother laughs at that kind of stuff. But what am I going to say to her? She's not a Christian. And she doesn't understand the concept of the Holy.

Shall I smack her face? Shall I spit on her? Shall I storm out of the house and refuse to eat dinner with her?

It's not as easy as you think.

Originally Posted by minerva

not all politicians swear on the bible. they get given a choice.

Really? Whats the proportion of those who swear on the bible and those who swear on other books? I know some MPs in UK who swore at the Qur'an, never knew US had some too!

Originally Posted by Jeff

My mother laughs at that kind of stuff. But what am I going to say to her? She's not a Christian. And she doesn't understand the concept of the Holy.

Shall I smack her face? Shall I spit on her? Shall I storm out of the house and refuse to eat dinner with her?

It's not as easy as you think.

No you definitely shouldn't do that, but what do you do Jeff?

Anyhow, I am happy to see we all at least agree on that Jesus is publicly laughed at and disrespected in West, I hope this changes soon, so the general people learn to respect figures such as Jesus (PBUH)

Most politicians swear on the Bible, even if they don't take it seriously, just for image reasons. But all they do is put their hand on it, they don't invoke it.

The representative from Michigan, I forget his name, swore on the Quran. But he didn't invoke it.

But in any case, what do you do if you are a politician? How do you stop mockery?

If you get your friends to pass a law saying, "Prophets cannot be mocked", it will be challenged in court. And it will be struck down by the Supreme Court.

Because it's in our Constitution that freedom of speech cannot be abridged by Congress.

There's no mockery exception.

You would have to change the Constitution. That means getting a two thirds vote in both chambers of Congress and then get adopted by three quarters of the states. That's not going to happen. Too much resistance, even from religious people, who don't think the law ought to be forcing people not to mock.

Originally Posted by STING

No you definitely shouldn't do that, but what do you do Jeff?

Anyhow, I am happy to see we all at least agree on that Jesus is publicly laughed at and disrespected in West, I hope this changes soon, so the general people learn to respect figures such as Jesus (PBUH)

And this is one reason why I welcome Muslim help and why I see Muslim immigration to the West as a good thing.

Though it may have some disadvantages, I think in the end, it is good for both of us.

I think one of the reasons for which religion and state are not mixed is because we do have people from all over the world who come to live here who are not Christians and to invoke one major religion as being THE LAW and all people have to abide by it would create problems.

Early history why US has separation of church and state:

Quotation:
"When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun


Early immigrants to the American colonies were motivated largely by the desire to worship freely in their own fashion, particularly after the English Civil War, but also religious wars and disputes in France and Germany.[2] They included a large number of nonconformists such as the Puritans and the Pilgrims, as well as Catholics (in Baltimore). Despite a common background, the groups' views on broader religious toleration were mixed. While some notable examples such as Roger Williams of Rhode Island and William Penn ensured the protection of religious minorities within their colonies, others such as the Plymouth Colony and Massachusetts Bay Colony had established churches. The Dutch colony of the New Netherlands had also established the Dutch Reformed Church and outlawed all other worship, although enforcement by the Dutch West India Company in the last years of the colony was sparse. Part of the reason for establishment was financial: the established Church was responsible for poor relief, and dissenting churches would therefore have a significant advantage.

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The principal religion in western hemisphere has been Christianity since the 16th century; it continues to be the choice of about 75% of the U.S. and Canadian adult populations. But, "religion" in the U.S. involves much more than Christian Churches; it includes:

Churches, circles, groves, gurdwaras, mosques, synagogues, temples, etc., and the organizations of which they are a part.

Solitary practitioners of an organized religion.

People who consider themselves religious, but are not affiliated with any specific group.

Humanists, secularists, Agnostics, Atheists, etc. all of whom have specific religious beliefs. Although some would consider them non-religious, if you ask an Agnostic what their religion is, they will probably reply "Agnostic."


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat..._United_States