homosexuality and christianity

[Equality]

how come two gays can have a marriage ceremony in the church (the house of god) with the preist leading the ceremony and saying " you may now kiss the bride". what a none sense. is that christianity? whats going on?? why being gay is it almost compulsory to join the church of england or America for example?? thats the twisted version of christianity where priests and fathers are more like gays and peodophiles than a relegious church figure...how many stories do you hear about priests sexually assulting young boys? is that chritianity??

[FaHaD]

there u can not trust who is a gay and who is a real man.....

[el7ilwa]

I don't think it is christianity or church false but it is the government false like what happend in Germany??

[shamsery]

Can church lead such ceremony ? Is this facts? What happened to Germeny?

[Equality]

We need some ideas from our christian friends, to clerify this point. i hope some one can showus some thing

[shamsery]

I endorse your opinion.

[el7ilwa]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shamsery
Can church lead such ceremony ? Is this facts? What happened to Germeny? [/QUOT

In the germany the government allow the gays 2 married from each other like any normal couple & make celebrations just 2 solve the prb of gays increasing there??:lost:
So the government just wanna get ride of their prbs without any respect 4 the religion or church their!!!!!!!!

[shamsery]

I am initiating new thread in name of “Islam's Position on Homosexuality”. Please visit.

[Talius Brute]

The church doesn't allow gay marriages, not does it allow homosexuality.

Governments may do so, but they have nothing to do with religion.

[shamsery]

Dear samaki,
Mr. TB has protested. You blamed church that there were marriage ceremony of gays. You also pointed out that priest conducted it. In connection of ceremony Christianity also criticized. Now it’s your ethical obligation to proof your statement. Hope you will do it.

[sanwin25]

Shamsery, I think the pressure of too much posting is begininng to tell on you. You last few post make no sense.

[shamsery]

I shall be much careful. By the way ,what are those post please.

[Equality]

Salam,
Mr. shamsery please try to read all posts carefully to know exactly what we are aiming here, and look to my second post and your answer before just trying to prove your abilities in disscussion and trying to mistaken other members, however, since you agreed with what Tb said, and you like some proof from me, therefore i think this one might make both of you happy.

It seems some churches generally in europe legilize such disorder marriage, and some rethink about it and some reject it. disregarding the church accepts or not but sooner or later will be accepted, as long all government appreve it, . The main point i would like to add it here, that If the government and the church accept such marriage, it means, with high and true prediction, they will accept mariage human with animals in the near future.



Coming to Canada: Gay and Lesbian Marriage
The government sanctions Church marriages, the Church sanctions gay and lesbian marriages

by Deborah Levinson

The Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto (MCC Toronto) which is part of the United States based Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (UFMCC), will begin performing legal same-sex marriages in January 2001.

At an MCC Toronto church service held on December 3, 2000, Senior Pastor Rev. Brent Hawkes made the following announcement:

"MCC Toronto is proud to announce that beginning in January 2001 we will be issuing marriage licenses for same sex weddings. Until now, we felt restricted from acting on our beliefs by what we thought was a legal impediment regarding same sex weddings. Being called by God to marry same sex couples, we recently sought legal advice and as a result, we have changed our position on the legality of same sex marriages. In keeping with the ancient Christian tradition of banns of marriage we will now be issuing marriage licenses for same sex weddings. We believe we will be the first to issue these licenses anywhere in the world. As you may know, the issue of same sex marriage is currently before the courts and we are seeking to participate in those court proceedings and we have retained Douglas Elliott, of Elliott and Kim to act on our behalf."

Under current Ontario law, Section 5 of the Ontario Marriage Act, couples who wish to marry can either obtain a license from a local municipal clerk or they can have banns published in a church they regularly attend. Pursuant to that law Mr. Elliott has advised the church that it has the authority to follow ancient Christian tradition of publication of banns of marriage instead of requiring couples to obtain a marriage license. To date the municipal clerks in Ontario have declined to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples and while this refusal is the subject of a current court case in the Ontario Divisional Court, there seems to be no legal bar to using this alternative method.

To date, no church has offered to marry same-sex couples by publishing banns of marriage. Historically, banns of marriage consist of a verbal announcement of the couple's intent to marry during a church service in accordance with that church's practice. Generally this has been each Sunday for three consecutive Sundays preceding the wedding. The church then issues the marriage certificate following the wedding ceremony.

So far Rev. Hawkes is very pleased with the response to the announcement, "We were delighted with the overwhelming response of our congregation and several couples have already expressed interest in being married in our church."

We'll have to watch this scenario play out. While Canada has been very progressive on the issues of equal rights for gays and lesbians there will no doubt be attempts to bar gays and lesbians from this marriage method.

In Pride,
Deborah



Dutch Legislators Approve Full Marriage Rights for Gays
The New York Times, Page A4
Wednesday, September 13, 2000

THE HAGUE, Sept. 12 (AP) -- Lawmakers in the Netherlands, long among the gay-rights vanguard, approved a bill today to convert the country's registered same-sex partnerships into full-fledged marriages, complete with divorce guidelines and wider adoption rights for gays.

Supporters say the legislation will give Dutch gays rights beyond those offered in any other country.

Lawmakers thumped their desks in approval when the bill passed by a vote of 109 to 33, and some of the scores of witnesses in the packed public gallery applauded and embraced.

Parliament had discussed the bill last week. Only a few small Christian parties had voiced opposition, although there was an emotional and often heated three-day debate. The bill gained speedy approval today.

"I'm very happy," said Mark Wagenbuur, 34, who came with his partner to watch the vote. "What happened today represents changes in our society."

Mr. Wagenbuur said he and his partner would now formally wed, but their immediate problem is, "We don't know who should ask whom."

In Norway and Sweden, gay couples can already register their partnerships, and Denmark was the first country to allow gay marriages, in 1989.

Two years ago, the Netherlands enacted a law allowing same-sex couples to register as partners and to claim pensions, social security and inheritances. But the new legislation goes further, creating full equality, the measure's supporters said.

Same-sex couples will be able to marry at city hall and to adopt Dutch children. They will be able to divorce through the court system, like heterosexual couples.

Boris Dittrich, a member of the centrist Democrats 66 party and a proponent of the plan, said the law "acknowledges that a person's sex is not of importance for marriage." He spoke during what he called "the most moving debate" of his parliamentary career.

"We will be able to call it what it is and that's marriage," said Henk Krol, a gay-rights advocate and magazine editor.

The law is expected to take effect early next year. Mr. Krol said he plans to convert his own partnership status to marriage as soon as it does.

Displaying unusual solidarity, all three parliamentary factions in the governing coalition--the left-of-center Labor Party, the Liberal VVD and the smaller Democrats 66--backed the proposal.

Even a few members of the biggest opposition party, the largely traditional Christian Democratic Alliance, have expressed support.

Kees van der Straaij of the Reformed Political Party, an opponent, said "the historical understanding of marriage is torn from its roots."

Gay marriages have not been recognized by the dominant Protestant or Roman Catholic churches, but a few breakaway churches have sent encouraging letters to legislators.

The Remonstrant Brethren, which broke form the Protestant church in 1619, accepted gay marriages in 1986.

The Remonstrants and a group called the Old Catholic Church are the best-known supporters of gay rights here.

While gays will enjoy new liberties in the Netherlands, they may run into trouble when they travel in countries where homosexuality remains illegal.

The Foreign Affairs Ministry has proposed offering legal assistance to Dutch citizens in such cases.



Anglican Church may recognize gay marriage: Bishop

July 11, 2001

LONDON, ONT. - Gays and Lesbians may one day be able to marry in the Anglican Church. Michael Ingham, the bishop for the diocese of Vancouver, predicts it will happen in some churches sooner rather than later.

At a national meeting in Ontario, Ingham apologized to the gay community and told the other Anglican clergy he was sorry for the mistreatment of gays and lesbians by the church.

Ingham says the homosexual community has felt alienated. "It's been very difficult for us to reach out to the gay and lesbian community in the Vancouver area with a message of hope, because, they point out to us, they're still excluded from complete membership."

The apology surprised Doug Elliot, a lawyer for the organization Equality for Gays and Lesbians Everywhere (EGALE).

Elliot says the apology is a significant step. "It gives us hope for the future," he said. "It would be wonderful if the Christian churches and the gay and lesbian community could be reconciled."

Ingham says that reconciliation may not be far off in some parts of the country. He says he believes it will happen "eventually, everywhere."

Elliot says it would send an important message to the rest of society as well. "That homosexuality is not a sin. That gays and lesbians are capable of loving and responsible relationships like everyone else."

Ingham says the Church's move may have an impact on a lawsuit in Ontario as well.

Two homosexual couples were married last January in a small church in Toronto, but the federal and provincial governments are refusing to recognize it as legal. Elliot is their lawyer.

He says if the Anglican Church recognizes gay and lesbian marriages, the provincial and federal governments should too.

[Equality]

THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH IN DENMARK AND HOMOSEXUALITY

The Danish Parliament changed laws in 1973 covering inheritance and tax laws to give same-sex couples equality with married couples. On 1989-OCT-1, gays and lesbians a new law became effective that allowed them to register their partnerships. As of late 1995, there were 1449 gay and 634 lesbian partnerships registered. Their subsequent divorce rate is slightly lower than for married couples.

The Bishops of the Church of Denmark established a commission of bishops to study the biblical and theological context of homosexual partnerships, and to recommend whether the church should formally bless these partnerships with a ritual or other means.

In 1997-JAN, about 100 conservative pastors and leaders from the right wing of the Danish Church met to create an alternative commission to fight recognition within the church of gay and lesbian partnerships. Pastor Flemming Baatz Kristensen, a member of the new commission, said: "In case the church accepts registered partnership it is sending out a signal meaning that it legitimates two kinds of married life, and then the church has deserted its foundation."

The original commission of bishops issued their report in 1997-MAY. They concluded: "As a consequence of changes in the family patterns, marriage is not any longer dominating as a frame around common life."
"The registered partnership does not constitute any threat against marriage".
"Marriage and registered partnership are dissimilar, one of the reasons being that marriage is a relation between woman and man while registered partnership is a relation between two persons of the same sex".
"It is reasonable that the individual member of the church expects a service by the church, not merely in general but also in specific important situations during life."
"There is not in principle anything hindering the introduction of new rituals; the Church of Denmark has, however, a well-founded tradition for showing great reticence."
"A ritual for blessing of partnership will...cause strife and alarm many people."
"The committee has found neither theological nor general moral objections to homosexual practice that are tenable."
"A blessing might take the following shapes: blessing in connection with pastoral care.
blessing in church according to a free ritual.
blessing as intercessory prayer in connection with the common prayer.
blessing in church in accordance with a fixed ritual."

"...the committee does not find that there are in principle reasons speaking against the introduction of a ritual for blessing of registered partnership."
"To many people it is something strange and offensive, and some will see it as irreconcilable with their conscience. It must, therefore, be decisive that no pastor can be ordered to perform a blessing of registered partnership."


The commission submitted three outlines of how a ritual for blessing of registered partnership could be prepared.

By an unanimous vote on 1997-OCT-27, the Bishops of the State Lutheran Church approved of the blessing of homosexual partnerships within their congregations. Gay and lesbian couples throughout Denmark can now have their marriages sealed as part of the regular church service. The bishops of Aarhus and of Roskilde promoted a new church ritual that would allow gays and lesbians to contract their partnership in church. But the proposal was voted down by the rest of the bishops. There has been considerable opposition to a gay/lesbian church ritual by parish councils and pastors; they feel that it would place homosexual partnership on a par with heterosexual marriage.


The Church of Denmark's Council on Inter-Church Relations commented:

"In the summary of the bishops' discussion it is stated that they 'stand by marriage as God's good plan for the common life between man and woman and as a frame around family life and the upbringing of children. We stand by the view on marriage that is expressed in the Biblical writings and our traditions as a church. This view on marriage is not affected because some people live in registered partnerships. The registered partnership does not get its motivation or identity from marriage but from the wish of the persons concerned and their own responsible decision to live their life joined to a person of the same sex"...a pastor... should in each case seek guidance from the bishop concerning under which form such a service or prayers may be conducted."


Germany approves 'gay marriage'



The first ceremony is not expected until June

By Rob Broomby in Berlin
The upper chamber of the German parliament, the Bundesrat, has approved a limited form of gay marriage.

But the parliament, which has a veto on all legislation connected to tax and financial matters, voted down some sections of the new law.

Campaigners say these proposals would have ended tax discrimination against gay and lesbian couples.



Relationships will have legal recognition

The law comes into effect on 1 January, but the first register office ceremony is not expected until June at the earliest.

It will be left to the federal state to decide where the registration takes place.

In ultra-conservative regions such as Bavaria, authorities have suggested that gay and lesbian couples might tie the knot at district council offices, which handle everyday business including vehicle registration.

'Attack on marriage'Members of the Bavaria-based CSU (Christian Social Union) have called the new rules the greatest attack on the institution of marriage in decades.

Under the regulations, couples can take the same surname, share household insurance and act as the next of kin in key medical decisions.

Financial provisions

The relationships will have legal recognition, and the rules will extend to foreigners.

But the right to adopt children was excluded.

The Bundesrat also voted down key financial provisions which would have ended discrimination on the basis of sexuality over income and inheritance tax laws.

The legislation envisaged new obligations as well as rights for gay couples. One was the requirement to support an unemployed partner, however the Bundesrat voted this down.

Holland and the US state of Vermont have already approved laws giving gay marriages the same legal status as heterosexual marriages, while Canada is debating similar proposals.


Church rethinks stance on gays



Gay rights groups have welcomed the teachings

A rethinking of religious teachings on homosexuality is set to send shockwaves through the church.
A new catechism, written by one of the Church of England's most senior figures Canon Edward Norman, suggests homosexuality has been "divinely ordered".

The work, An Anglican Catechism, was commissioned by the Archbishop of York, Dr David Hope.

Members of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement (LGCM) have welcomed the section on homosexuality and say it is a significant step forward.

'Extremely welcome'

Canon Norman states in the catechism: "The Church continues to classify homosexuality as an intrinsically disordered condition ('against nature'), yet significant numbers of Christians are, and actually always have been, themselves homoesexual."

Richard Kirker, General Secretary of the LGCM, said:" The section on homosexuality is an extremely welcome breath of fresh air.

"It reminds other figures in the church, and society generally, just how much further the church has to move on this issue before homosexuals are not dscriminated against by the church.

"This could send shockwaves through the church, because of who it has been written by."



Dr David Hope has endorsed the work

Canon Norman said the issue takes up a very small part of the text, which tackles a wide range of issues.

He said: "I have not written this to be controversial.

"The House of Bishops and the General Synod are split down the middle on this issue and I don't seek to exacerbate a split.

"What I have written is designed to clarify exactly what the church teaches on the issue."

The Archbishop of York has endorsed the work and written a foreword for it.

In the text, the theologian argues that sexual acts condemned in the past were not necessarily specifically homosexual.

Canon Edward Norman states:"[Rather] certain types of depraved behaviour and excessive indulgence which, where they are found in heterosexual liaisons, are equally to be rejected by those seeking the sanctification of their whole persons."

The book is to be launched on Thursday in London.

[Talius Brute]

What the hell is the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches ?

Just because some mad Americans decide to form a breakaway church doesn't mean they are Christians,
likewise the Aglican faith which was founded by a king who wanted to divorce his wife and wasn't allowed to by the pope.
If I set up an Islamic sect the believed that heaven was to be gained by eating lots of ice-cream I may have a few followers but I certainly wouldn't be a Muslim just because I called myself one.
The same for these Christians: just because they say they are Christians doesn't mean that they are.

[shamsery]

Dear samaki,
A/S.
With due respect, where you found that I agreed with Mr.TB.
In your second post of the thread, you sought opinion from the Christian friends and I endorsed you. Mr.TB did not agree with you and in his post he mentioned that “The church doesn't allow gay marriages, not does it allow homosexuality”.

I requested you to prove that your statement is correct.

Honestly I was not equipped with the information /data, which you have. It was my conviction that without sufficient data you cannot initiate such a thread. I just remind your moral obligation as you co-partner.
I have gone through the whole thread and your posting.Good Job.
Thanks.