View Full Version : Islam: Should it Conquer and Rule Non-Muslims Against their Will?
We had a Muslim member--friend of mine actually and a nice guy--say on another thread that Islam is supposed to do this:
Go out and conquer non-Muslims and then give them a choice--
1. Convert willingly to Islam;
2. Pay the jizya;
3. Die.
:D
He says this is what the Prophet did and what early Islam did and it is what all Muslims should do.
The only problem is, today there is no unity and no Caliph. And no strict enforcement of Sharia law.
But when there is: back to the old plan! And Muslims should look forward to it.
What do you think? Is this doctrine of Offensive Jihad a correct picture of Islam and how it is supposed to treat the non-Muslim world?
Or is it a distortion of Islamic teaching?
marianna
19-07-10, 06:36 AM
I see it as a recipe for global catastrophe.
Islam: Should it Conquer and Rule Non-Muslims Against their Will?Quran/hadeth and most of all sunna makes that statement very clear.
amo_l_oman
19-07-10, 09:21 AM
no need, if it's purely for religious purpose
First of all Islam must not be imposed and anyway today's societies and people (included the Islamic ones), are so corrupted and far from religion that it would add up confusion only
From a political point of view, it would be enough if Arab Muslim rulers used their alliances with non Muslim countries in the interest of the Arabs and muslims
Two good options out of three isn't bad. :rolleyes:
Russo_turisto
19-07-10, 01:32 PM
Zomg Jeff who's the guy, I wanna know :D
Anyway, I fear that that used to be the way to handle People of the Book. But these might have included not only Jews and Christians, but other groups such as Zoroastrians etc. Can be a reason why Zoros weren't persecuted strongly in the early cent's of Islam.
Those who weren't among the lucky People of Book and the like, were given only two alternatives:
1. Conversion
2. Death
:XD:
Not so funny, is it..?
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Two good options out of three isn't bad. :rolleyes:
I'm surprised you of all people dodged the question! :p
yes it should and it will happen and we will start with the POPE.
Which option will you choose jeff?
Alhamask
19-07-10, 04:28 PM
It may be so according to your grossly misinformed friend but NOT so according to Islam.
Posted via Mobile Device
UmKhalid
19-07-10, 04:37 PM
Oh, Muslims.
Go watch MTV.
OK Jeff, here's my view:
The Islamic Umma is no longer in danger of being destroyed, it's here to stay. Across Africa and Asia, Islam is huge. The ideals and cultures of Islam and its history have spread to every corner of the globe. I even heard that aboriginal people in Mexico have begun to discover it...sub7aaan Allah.
There is no spiritual leader of the Muslims to declare a war on behalf of the Umma, just as you have pointed out. And for the second reason above, such a war would never be necessary again, at least not in the violent sense.
What you have instead is some countries where Muslims are a minority around the world, where they are expected to pay their taxes and obey the law. Then there are some countries where Muslims are the majority, where non-Muslims have to pay their taxes and obey the law.
In those latter countries, there is no jaziya: Basically because, for right or wrong, however much they may base some of their laws on Shari3a the financial system is quite secular: Muslims don't HAVE to pay zakat. Non-Muslims don't HAVE to pay jaziya instead; in fact there's no system for them to do so even if they wanted to.
Most non-Muslim countries allow Muslims to practice their faith freely, with the occasional disagreement between rights and secular legal responsibilities. And the reverse is also true. Most Western countries have mosques. Most Islamic countries have Churches. And there is no compulsion to attend either. Even in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam's most holy sites, it is not compulsory to be a Muslim, and people are able to practice other religions within the privacy of their own walls at least.
There are a lot of imperfections in the way people of different faiths rub along together in different countries. But overall. it's not too bad. We're not at war with anyone, and nobody has the authority to say otherwise and make it so - unless somebody declares war on us, and whatever hotheaded kids and conspiracy theorists say on this forum or anywhere else, nobody has. All the extremists achieve is trying to convince both sides to fight each other. That's not the work of Allah, that's the dude down below.
But of course there is a war in a sense: One of ideas. By definition, if you are a believer in something, then you see non-believers as wrong, whether you're Christian, Muslim or a rabid secularist. What we all want to do, on some level, is convince others to share our view. And so let it be so, through example, debate and making good use of tools like this, we might let a few people step into the light! By the same token, the headbangers might give a lot of people a false impression about us. And that works both ways.
But one final point, and as a Muslim it's important to say, whatever some misguided brothers and sisters might think: Islam is the ONLY mainstream religion that acknowledges truth in other faiths: We are told that although we disagree wtih them, Christians and Jews believe in the same God and have the same basic message. We are also told that all the peoples of the Earth are created different for a reason: So we can get to know each other and learn to get along.
A-salam 3alaikum. Peace be upon you. Islam 1.1
It's a very good answer, mimosa. Very good, very thoughtful, very detailed. And persuasive, at least to me.
Thank you! :)
I am wondering why you were hesitant to give it!
I often wonder why, if so many Muslims disagree with this vision, they don't pile onto those who threaten it and say it's the essence of Islamic dawah?
It may be so according to your grossly misinformed friend but NOT so according to Islam.
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I'm glad to hear you say so! :)
Which option will you choose jeff?
Me? Well I don't know in the sense that who knows how they would REALLY react to such a challenge! I hope I would be brave and true to myself and my God.
But I can say:
Inshallah, I would choose no alternative but reject all three. I would fight along with others who wished to fight. I would regard what I was fighting against as a kind of evil and that the duty of any GOOD PERSON would be to help in that fight.
And if I were unable to fight but forced to live in such a situation, I hope I would have the courage not to submit. In other words, under those conditions, I hope I would have the courage to openly and publicly condemn the teachings and practices of those who were ruling me and call them to Christ.
That would be "choosing death", I guess.
"No one takes My Life from Me; I hand it over willingly". "No man has greater love than this: to lay down his life for his friend."
Jeff, I wasn't hesitant for any philosophical reason...just too busy for anything other than flippant one-liners. Anyway..back to work!
Two good options out of three isn't bad. :rolleyes::DHahaha nice one, but I will go 4 both...Jeff are u afraid 2 die?
I thought the Christians are eager 2 meet their Bblical Jesus...
What happened in ur case->>U have been playing the fields and ur not sure that jesus is capable of truly forgiving u...
Now where ur going 2 hide urself-wat a shame....
:D:D:D:cool:
:DHahaha nice one, but I will go 4 both...Jeff are u afraid 2 die?
I thought the Christians are eager 2 meet their Bblical Jesus...
What happened in ur case->>U have been playing the fields and ur not sure that jesus is capable of truly forgiving u...
Now where ur going 2 hide urself-wat a shame....
:D:D:D:cool:
I thought death was the option I chose? :D
I'm figuring you can only put it off so long anyway... ;)
I thought death was the option I chose? :D
I'm figuring you can only put it off so long anyway... ;):DY is this guy so afraid of Bin Laden than...:hyper::D:p
:DJeff that was ma tack-tick...FYI-We->>Muslims we know that death is not the end....There4->>We are not afraid 2 die...
Grazie mille...:D:D:D
:DY is this guy so afraid of Bin Laden than...:hyper::D:p
Pffft! Pffft!
Why are you guys so afraid of Israel then? :p
Pffft! Pffft!
Why are you guys so afraid of Israel then? :p:D Israel can-not even-defeat Hezbollah...
Ok Jeff peace...cuz now we are going out of thread...:D:p:cool:
We had a Muslim member--friend of mine actually and a nice guy--say on another thread that Islam is supposed to do this:
Go out and conquer non-Muslims and then give them a choice--
1. Convert willingly to Islam;
2. Pay the jizya;
3. Die.
:D
He says this is what the Prophet did and what early Islam did and it is what all Muslims should do.
The only problem is, today there is no unity and no Caliph. And no strict enforcement of Sharia law.
But when there is: back to the old plan! And Muslims should look forward to it.
What do you think? Is this doctrine of Offensive Jihad a correct picture of Islam and how it is supposed to treat the non-Muslim world?
Or is it a distortion of Islamic teaching?
Allah says in the Quran Surat al Nahal:
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]
There is no compulsion "Force" in religion. Like Allah says in the Quran: "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" [Al-Qur’an 2:256]
Islam means peace. Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).
Well, Islam is not a violent religion, it does not tell us to kill people just because they do not want to convert to islam. If islam was all about using their Sowrds and killing ppl than here are some good facts.
1. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians:Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian. Right?!
Okay! what about the 800 years that Muslims ruled Spain. Muslims who were in Spain, never ever used their sword to force the Spanish ppl to conver to Islam. Not like when the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims, the Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan " call of prayers".
marianna
20-07-10, 01:26 AM
Being that my ancestors are from spain the only thing I can imagine is to say this: Imagine if someone from a foreign land came to conquer your lands...how would you feel? Unfortunately things will happen.
aidsmonger911
20-07-10, 02:44 AM
Zeus is not pleased.
Consequences will never be the same.
Quran/hadeth and most of all sunna makes that statement very clear.
yes it should and it will happen and we will start with the POPE.
may be speaking the TRUTH hurts some but that is the TRUTH.
Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him said it very clearly:
"I was ordered (by Allah swt) to fight people until they pronounce shahada'' Bukhari
the main purpose of this fight is to SAVE people whom Allah swt wants to save from hellfire, because some unbelievers or so stubborn and arrogant and they just will not listen to the TRUTH till they see the sword on top of their heads, but Allah swt likes them to go to heaven and this will be the ONLY way to do it.
Jeff, I solute your friend who told you this;)
surely he is brave:).
Jihad4Truth
20-07-10, 07:04 AM
^^You can't be for real.
But tell me, why does Allah need his human followers to go out and force the non-believing humans to believe in him?
If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian. Right?!
:yes:That wat I call *standing point*...:super:
Okay! what about the 800 years that Muslims ruled Spain. Muslims who were in Spain, never ever used their sword to force the Spanish ppl to conver to Islam. Not like when the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims, the Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan " call of prayers".:yes:2 B honest people like Jeff make me sick smtimes->>The 4get wat, the Bible said...The Bible said that->> Jesus instructed his followers 2 purchase swords....
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)
I wonder if Peter fault 2 have the sword in the 1st place...:mmhmm:
Jesus did not tell him 2 buy it....right?
Peter wld not have used it 4 what Swords is naturally used 4->>Fights in defense and or offence...
Jesus not directly responsible 4 wat is ethically wrong, even though we c his finger prints all over it....and thats the reality that Jeff and others are now denying...:mmhmm::cool:
Wahey! The Salafi muppet show has arrived!
That's it, just pull one abbreviated, de-contextualised hadeeth out that you like and forget the whole Qur'An! That's the right thing to do isn't it? No?
Back to basics boys. Start with 1.1 above. And think of it as a quality meal: Eat some of the meat before you put your salt and pepper on it - you might find it's already perfect.
Here they are folks, live and ready to jive: Living proof that the biggest enemy of Islam is within...
:D Nuh-I love Jesus but that was a point...I have 2 use in one way or others-Bcus Jeff think Islam-forced people 2 accept Islam @ the point of the sword......:cool:
:D Nuh-I love Jesus but that was a point...I have 2 use in one way or others-Bcus Jeff think Islam-forced people 2 accept Islam @ the point of the sword......:cool:
Now WHERE did you get that? :p
I didn't say this. CLOUDS said this. Clouds is a MUSLIM.
I asked how many people agree with him.
But instead of saying, Muslims like clouds make me sick, you say people like Jeff make me sick. :p
Why is that?
So far only Mimo is actually arguing with clouds..and omr who seems to agree with him. :yes: "the biggest enemy of Islam is within"
Is clouds' idea, "the biggest enemy of Islam"?
"the biggest enemy of Islam"?:DJeff, Jack, Jacquline,john and Muslim behave like animals, no offense->>and u can count me in->>But, hope 2 go out of Danger zone-very soon....Insha'Allah...
One thing 4 sure, I'm worring more about ma friend Jeff...
After Jesus he dont want 2bliving Mohammad was the last *messenger of God*...Nice day...:cool:
Russo_turisto
20-07-10, 12:06 PM
Manta, you seem to be skipping clouds' and omr's posts. Regarding your remark,
:D Nuh-I love Jesus but that was a point...I have 2 use in one way or others-Bcus Jeff think Islam-forced people 2 accept Islam @ the point of the sword......:cool:
havent Muslims been doing it all the time since the Hijra until a strong Muslim empire was created? and even after that...
We see a devout Muslim clouds "dragging hadith out of the context". Or..probably not. Can't blame Non-Muslims after that.
Manta, you seem to be skipping clouds' and omr's posts. Regarding your remark,
havent Muslims been doing it all the time since the Hijra until a strong Muslim empire was created? and even after that...
We see a devout Muslim clouds "dragging hadith out of the context". Or..probably not. Can't blame Non-Muslims after that.:DMa friend->Which Q->>Historical evidences prove that the majority who embraced Islam chose it willingly...Islam did not spread by sword, but bcus of its strong faith and that it appeals 2 every mind...
All Christians claim that Islam was spread by sword*Which is not true* -That wat I call->The western way of war-against islam...:D:D:D:cool:
UmKhalid
20-07-10, 01:08 PM
Alright what if I become Muslim and then decide I want out? For whatever reason?
nothing will happen to you cause you are not important.
Alex Belucci
20-07-10, 01:18 PM
Alright what if I become Muslim and then decide I want out? For whatever reason?
Then comes the end of life lool :6:!
UmKhalid
20-07-10, 01:26 PM
nothing will happen to you cause you are not important.
Ouch?
Doesn't matter, Clouds will kill me if I leave Islam, he loves me and cares about my afterlife.
Mantis, I wasn't talking about you...you're just a piss-taker, different category and one which I also join regularly! I'm talking about the other headbangers who dirty all our faces wtih their horrible, noisy, hate-filled and ignorant world-view...
amo_l_oman
20-07-10, 02:53 PM
Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him said it very clearly:
"I was ordered (by Allah swt) to fight people until they pronounce shahada'' Bukhari
Give the con...text, then apply to today's situation if you can :cool:
I don’t believe that Muslims need to fight and force ppl into converting to Islam. Muslims, no better that Islam is far more stronger than any other religion out there, and its self-assured. It does not need to use force to attract others to it.
Allah SW says: “"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29) Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth. "We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended." (17:105) "Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth."(27:79)
The Ethical (Moral) and logical (Intellectual ) advantage of the Islam religion comparing it to all other religion, Islam has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam.
Islam is the fasts growing religion on earth , and that’s not a myth!
Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says, "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."
Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Representatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighborhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."
Yes, something is defiantly right about Islam religion and that's why it has attracted so many people throughout its 1400 years of history.
Exactly Neena. As Muslims we know that the Qur'An has basically three types of Aya: The type that is recounting the history of Creation, the prophets and other information defining the nature of Allah and Islam. The second type gives direct instructions to the Muslims in all times on how to observe Islam. And the third type gave responses or instructions to the early Muslims on what to do in response to things that happened during the time of the Prophet :PBUH:
Some people like to mix up the second and third type, and even worse with the a7adith, to justify their extreme, hate-filled views. This is despite the obvious message in the Qur'An, repeated time and again as you have, that killing is wrong, making war is wrong, other beliefs and peoples are to be treated well, and that as you quoted, there is no compulsion in religion.
It's a shame George Dubya Bush felt the need to declare a "war on terror". We as Muslims should have declared one, a war of words an education to our own people, much earlier on.
Seeking peace and understanding is GOOD. Seeking war and hate is BAD. The Qur'An could not be clearer. If we follow our faith in its simple, clear message, then the way to spread Islam is by good example, not the disgusting acts that some perpetrate in our name.
amo_l_oman
20-07-10, 03:41 PM
Sheikh al Ouda wrote more specifically on jihad but his reasoning can be aplied also here
http://thelastingmiracle.com/eng/article.aspx?id=35&cat=106
I see it as a recipe for global catastrophe.
It's not dissimilar to what your own country has been doing for the past decade:
Do as we tell you and implement our form of 'democracy' or
1. We'll set up sanctions against you
2. We'll launch air strikes against you
3. We'll invade you, make you subservient to us and RAPE your nation of its natural resources
^Because its people like you who are blinded by their stupidity,people like you must be forced even if its for your own good. I have decided that i will start with you J4T aka karam.
CONVERT OR DIE
where is the second option Omr? ie pay the Jizya?, after all they are the people of the book.
come on give them a chance.:)
LORDMUS
20-07-10, 06:52 PM
^Because its people like you who are blinded by their stupidity,people like you must be forced even if its for your own good. I have decided that i will start with you J4T aka karam.
CONVERT OR DIE
Hahah what a stand off!
btw. look who's talking a jatt person which I believe are "sikh" and carry along with them a sword/dagger?Apologies if I am mistaken :rolleyes:
Jihad4Truth
20-07-10, 06:54 PM
^Because its people like you who are blinded by their stupidity,people like you must be forced even if its for your own good. I have decided that i will start with you J4T aka karam.
CONVERT OR DIE
So.......you're going to kill me to save me.
I see.
And they wonder why we have a war against terrorists.
LORDMUS
20-07-10, 06:59 PM
It sickens me and is distasteful but no matter what faith you belong from these humans seek blood more than anything.Now be it Islam the black sheep of the community but in reality the religion itself "the quran" clearly tells of the value of this thing called "life" which we humans blindly,for our own personal gain destroy.
It's been happening and will happen right till the end of this creation (for those who believe in an end) *sigh* in all the difference lies that we Muslims take it to be the responsibility of the supreme judge of all (and other judeo-rooted religion)to overlook it while same can't be said of the Atheists.Which makes me wonder andf till this day nobody has ever given me a sounding statement as to if I were an Atheist then there is nothing bounding me into following what a bunch of people come up with "constitution" or anything.... It's my life now be the killing of innocent drive of my life.. why stop me ?o.0 What If I don't care of the others... why should I care?The term human secularism(which is what much of this atheism is based upon) brings me crying of laughter.
Sorry If I deviated this topic. Had to let it go off.
Humans =/ lool.... now where is my pink planet....
http://static.thestudentroom.co.uk/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Ouch?
Doesn't matter, Clouds will kill me if I leave Islam, he loves me and cares about my afterlife.
what is this UmJeff grow up no flareting in sabla!!!!!
So.......you're going to kill me to save me.
I see.
And they wonder why we have a war against terrorists.
no boy, i'm going to convert you to save you.
The killing part is when you dont convert.
aidsmonger911
21-07-10, 05:40 PM
No, it shouldn't and we should all get along.
Jihad4Truth
21-07-10, 06:19 PM
no boy, i'm going to convert you to save you.
The killing part is when you dont convert.
You and the Talibhan are going to do this?
LORDMUS
21-07-10, 06:23 PM
You and the Talibhan are going to do this?
Taliban* ROFL Are you being sarcastic? much of fox news lately? get over it ... Taliban has nothing to do with "Islam".It's all a propaganda as a result of the political instability sowed over a period of time.You got various factions of Taliban now. Which particular one are you speaking of? ROFL...
Irrationality makes any human pathetic be he/she a Muslim,Christian,Jew,Hindu,Shinto,Buddhist.
Taliban* ROFL Are you being sarcastic? much of fox news lately? get over it ... Taliban has nothing to do with "Islam".It's all a propaganda as a result of the political instability sowed over a period of time.You got various factions of Taliban now. Which particular one are you speaking of? ROFL...
Irrationality makes any human pathetic be he/she a Muslim,Christian,Jew,Hindu,Shinto,Buddhist.
Well the fact of the matter is that lots of Muslims support the Taliban. Taliban means 'scholars'. They started in the mosques and went from there.
Whether they are 'true Islam' or irrational you can argue with them about. But they make shahada, read the Quran, study fiqh, and believe they are following Mohammed.
Like Mimo says, they are "within". You can fight them and disagree with them. But you can't ignore them. They aren't going to be wished away.
Alhamask
21-07-10, 07:56 PM
I would choose no alternative but reject all three.
Even if it were 100 options or thousand or greater than that, it remains unislamic so as long as the motive is Forcing people to Islam, there is no doubt about that.
Posted via Mobile Device
LORDMUS
21-07-10, 08:20 PM
Well the fact of the matter is that lots of Muslims support the Taliban. Taliban means 'scholars'. They started in the mosques and went from there.
Whether they are 'true Islam' or irrational you can argue with them about. But they make shahada, read the Quran, study fiqh, and believe they are following Mohammed.
Like Mimo says, they are "within". You can fight them and disagree with them. But you can't ignore them. They aren't going to be wished away.
But is it reasonable to blame others for this? would it be right to label each or every christ follower of Pedophilia? Just because of the mishandling of the "authority" given to a bunch what appears to be men/women of high morality.Leaving virtual world aside I have never come across any Pakistani/Afghani to be supportive against the so called " Students"/ Knowledge seekers.Those who did get entangled within this web suffered mental trauma later when they realized to what good was their struggle.As for the current Taliban folks they all seek $$$ it's a sort of Chinatown but on a mega scale.
It all boils down to the foreign intrusion within the Muslim world and the weakening of their own faith.Where you get called "Black"/Yellow,Ajnabee,Mutajanis... this is far from the reality far from what our prophet (pbuh) had struggled for.That's why people like me await for the Caliph to return. ;)
Jihad4Truth
21-07-10, 09:26 PM
Taliban* ROFL Are you being sarcastic? much of fox news lately? get over it ... Taliban has nothing to do with "Islam".It's all a propaganda as a result of the political instability sowed over a period of time.You got various factions of Taliban now. Which particular one are you speaking of? ROFL...
Irrationality makes any human pathetic be he/she a Muslim,Christian,Jew,Hindu,Shinto,Buddhist.
Get over it? Omr just threatened to kill me if I don't convert to Islam and I wonder how he thinks he is going to do that, so I ask if he will need the talibhan or perhaps al queda to do that. After all he sounds like an extremist /terrorist to me.
And you ignore that and get offended instead?
LORDMUS
21-07-10, 09:36 PM
Get over it? Omr just threatened to kill me if I don't convert to Islam and I wonder how he thinks he is going to do that, so I ask if he will need the talibhan or perhaps al queda to do that. After all he sounds like an extremist /terrorist to me.
And you ignore that and get offended instead?
No. Not quite maybe I should have color fonted my post again? How about now... get it? *hint* read the pink bit.When did I ignore? which point to be exact?
:)
One must be delude or retarded enough to believe into what a terrorist has to say.For arguments sake say OMR is an extremist,radical to you... would his views reflect what religion of his has to say or rather scriptures based upon what it makes him the follower ?
Wait are you implying every single Muslim is a terrorist?
LOL? It wouldn't surprise me.... I have met many nutters across be they Muslims/ non-Muslims.
marianna
21-07-10, 09:37 PM
If someone tried that with me I have a whole tribe of people in Puerto Rico that would put such thoughts rightly in their place.
LORDMUS
21-07-10, 09:39 PM
Taliban* ROFL Are you being sarcastic? much of fox news lately? get over it ... Taliban has nothing to do with "Islam".It's all a propaganda as a result of the political instability sowed over a period of time.You got various factions of Taliban now. Which particular one are you speaking of? ROFL...
Irrationality makes any human pathetic be he/she a Muslim,Christian,Jew,Hindu,Shinto,Buddhist.
Here Jihad4T ..... Make you sure you have your browser ZOOMED IN on my marked bit.
Jihad4Truth
21-07-10, 10:23 PM
No. Not quite maybe I should have color fonted my post again? How about now... get it? *hint* read the pink bit.When did I ignore? which point to be exact?
:)
One must be delude or retarded enough to believe into what a terrorist has to say.For arguments sake say OMR is an extremist,radical to you... would his views reflect what religion of his has to say or rather scriptures based upon what it makes him the follower ?
Wait are you implying every single Muslim is a terrorist?
LOL? It wouldn't surprise me.... I have met many nutters across be they Muslims/ non-Muslims.
Not at all, but you certainly took it that way.
Look how personal you took something that had nothing to do with you.
Isn't that amazing! Talk about being irrational.
It's like you do not want us to talk about the problem of extremists and terrorists because you take it personally for some reason.
Why do you take it personally?
Two good options out of three isn't bad. :rolleyes:You were flit with this answer but I have no doubt you were serious.
You're not stupid and you can read. So can I.
LORDMUS
22-07-10, 01:29 AM
Not at all, but you certainly took it that way.
Look how personal you took something that had nothing to do with you.
Isn't that amazing! Talk about being irrational.
It's like you do not want us to talk about the problem of extremists and terrorists because you take it personally for some reason.
Why do you take it personally?
Again wrong. How many times have I face palmed over your posts(countless). This shows how much you know of Islam for a moment stop looking at what Muslims do and check on what the scripture has to say.
What do you mean by personal? Ever heard of a word called "Ummah" in Arabic? Google upon it.
Of course it's personal because that's what your post openly suggested earlier.
Shall I color them again for you ? personally? wtf would I take terrorism as a personal issue? the hell did it do to me? or does it has to do with Islam.
Dude get over it... or just make it clear that you hate "Islam"/Islamophobe and no matter how much one persuades .You pretend to be lifeless (without backing up your snaily remarks) as a stone.Of course Islam is something which every "following" Muslim takes personally. It's a way of life....
Got any issues with my post. Create up a thread and do pm me! Of all the posts I made on this thread no where did I state of my support to terrorism.
Jihad4Truth
22-07-10, 01:57 AM
If you admit to taking it personally, then how am I wrong?
Also if I clarified that what you misinterpreted was not what I meant, then again how am I wrong?
Those are rhetorical questions, no need to answer.
But let me get this straight:
You do not want anyone talking about terrorists or extremists because it offends you personally?
Yes or No?
But is it reasonable to blame others for this? would it be right to label each or every christ follower of Pedophilia? Just because of the mishandling of the "authority" given to a bunch what appears to be men/women of high morality.Leaving virtual world aside I have never come across any Pakistani/Afghani to be supportive against the so called " Students"/ Knowledge seekers.Those who did get entangled within this web suffered mental trauma later when they realized to what good was their struggle.As for the current Taliban folks they all seek $$$ it's a sort of Chinatown but on a mega scale.
It all boils down to the foreign intrusion within the Muslim world and the weakening of their own faith.Where you get called "Black"/Yellow,Ajnabee,Mutajanis... this is far from the reality far from what our prophet (pbuh) had struggled for.That's why people like me await for the Caliph to return. ;)
No, I think you mixing two things up.
First, no I don't blame all Muslims for the actions of some. Not at all. I LOVE my Muslim friends. I would be furious if somebody blamed them for the actions of terrorists.
But second, I think it's silly and pointless to point OUTSIDE the Umma for the actions and beliefs of those INSIDE. Not only have I met and talked to Muslim supporters of the Taliban, but I talk to Omanis all the time who talk about "my Salafist cousin" who supports the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. You can find plenty of these people online too.
Long before "foreign intrusion" in the ME, Wahhabi "reformers" from central Arabia stormed Karbala and burned it, massacring thousands of people...all in the name of the Quran. There have always been such movements among Muslims...whether they were the "true Islam" or not.
So no, I don't blame all Muslims. But I don't blame foreigners either.
I blame SOME Muslims...the Muslims who think that way and who support the actions of those who act that way.
On this thread, here you are arguing with ME, a foreigner, when you SHOULD be arguing with clouds. Try telling HIM that he believes what he believes about Islam because of "foreigners". :p
Those are the people you should be blaming and arguing with.
Clouds talked about offensive jihad. I put up a thread to see who agrees and who disagrees with him. And I'm very happy with those like yourself who disagree! :)
LORDMUS
22-07-10, 02:05 AM
If you admit to taking it personally, then how am I wrong?
Also if I clarified that what you misinterpreted was not what I meant, then again how am I wrong?
Those are rhetorical questions, no need to answer.
But let me get this straight:
You do not want anyone talking about terrorists or extremists because it offends you personally?
Yes or No?
And what does my want and not's has anything to do with this topic?
I am really losing my patience here... I find it hurting when Islam is LINKED with terrorism.Now it's not all the non-Muslims to blame but there are black sheep's in every society.As for your question: This is an Online forum and I am just a regular member it doesn't effin bother me....
But what I do hate is when people let their whims do the talk....
Such people should taste the pain for themselves instead of acting as a "key board warrior".
~Each their own~
Yeah, the Salafi Muppet Show is in full flow...don't interrupt or you'll go straight to hell! Haha...or not. The enemy within rears its head and listen to the sound of the faithful..oops...what sound? *tumbleweed blows across the room*
Jack, you can read...good...but you don't seem to have read my reply then? Oh well..as Voltaire said "prejudices are what fools use for reason..."
LORDMUS
22-07-10, 10:44 PM
No, I think you mixing two things up.
First, no I don't blame all Muslims for the actions of some. Not at all. I LOVE my Muslim friends. I would be furious if somebody blamed them for the actions of terrorists.
But second, I think it's silly and pointless to point OUTSIDE the Umma for the actions and beliefs of those INSIDE. Not only have I met and talked to Muslim supporters of the Taliban, but I talk to Omanis all the time who talk about "my Salafist cousin" who supports the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. You can find plenty of these people online too.
Long before "foreign intrusion" in the ME, Wahhabi "reformers" from central Arabia stormed Karbala and burned it, massacring thousands of people...all in the name of the Quran. There have always been such movements among Muslims...whether they were the "true Islam" or not.
So no, I don't blame all Muslims. But I don't blame foreigners either.
I blame SOME Muslims...the Muslims who think that way and who support the actions of those who act that way.
On this thread, here you are arguing with ME, a foreigner, when you SHOULD be arguing with clouds. Try telling HIM that he believes what he believes about Islam because of "foreigners". :p
Those are the people you should be blaming and arguing with.
Clouds talked about offensive jihad. I put up a thread to see who agrees and who disagrees with him. And I'm very happy with those like yourself who disagree! :)
It seems both of us are on the same path then.
Sorry but who is clouds? I have never come across his/her posts yet.
It seems both of us are on the same path then.
Sorry but who is clouds? I have never come across his/her posts yet.
He is on this thread and the Syria covering thread.
Pygmalion
23-07-10, 12:56 AM
Not exactly... Your friend might have depended on a wahabi source which is so emphatic on the idea of Islamic global domination...
The jizyah is sometimes mistranslated as a head tax which was not... Islam obliged the capable men of its adherents to fight and participate in jihad, it wasn't an option. Nonmuslims who did not accept Islam had to jizyah instead of jihad, so that is why they were called Ahl al-thimmah or the people of trust or convent, since they were paying jizyah in exchange of safety and security to be offered by the Muslim state.
Monks and priests did not have to pay jizyah, because had Islam enforced jihad on nonmuslims, monks wouldn't have had to participate because they were not supposed to leave their worship houses and so Islam wouldn't oblige them to participate and accordingly they did not have to pay jizyah in exchange of the safety and I ,as a Muslim, I see the ultimate tolerance in that.
Moreover, when the strong nonmuslims men got old and couldn't afford jizyah, they were entitled to pity cash from the Muslim treasury just like other Muslims, as equal citizens of the Muslim state. The jizeah was a substitute for jihad, not for Conversion to Islam.
In the time of Abu obidah, when he occupied Damascus, he offered the three options. But after three days he had to retract because the Roman were approaching with a much larger army, so Abu Obaidah had to return the jizyah because he did not stay long enough to fulfill the covent by offering the protection in exchange.
Nowadays, since conscription is a must for all, jizyah is no longer obligatory since all citizens have to serve their terms, according to sh. Yusuf Al Qaradawi.
Moreover, the theory of the caliphate differs from a sect to another. Most Sunnis think that there must be a leader at large and from the tribe of Qurasih who was called a caliph to supremely lead the ummah which I think an idea that was promoted and advocated by the Abbasids to not only legitimize their rule but even enshrine it, not that I am second guessing Sunni scholars, but during that time there were so many theories about who should rule and of course on theory to survive which was the one that lined up with the ambitions of the then rulers and it was they view to be adopted in the conquered lands. Ibadhis for example, believe that any Muslim who has the physical, religious and scholastic requirements can lead the ummah, he doesn't have to be from quraish or even an Arab. Moreover, if a monarch is pious enough and just, that will even waive the need for a caliph, since the ultimate goal is to secure the nation socially and politically, overthrowing a monarch with the above mentioned qualities will just do otherwise.
On the political views, you need to be very careful about the source. Muslims in the climax of their power accepted collective jizyah from some nonmuslim states during the climax of the Muslim power. If Islam is to seek global domination, they would have just occupied those states and would get what was mush more than the jizyah.
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Pygmalion
23-07-10, 01:41 AM
1. Sorry for the so many spelling mistakes, I am not at a real computer.
2. In politics and relegion, I read the starting post and jump to replying, most often I don't find it important to read and sometimes it is important to not read.
3. To both Muslims and Christians, I don't think it is wise to match Quran to Bible, Mohammed to Jesus, Companions to Disciples or maybe Mecca to the Vatican. These elements match only in their titles but not necessarily on how their roles. If you don't yet have the full image, then visit a website were Muslims debate with themselves or Christians with themselves. Most of our fight and debates come from failing to make the distinction. The prophet Mohammed is a statesman in addition to his religious post and the Quran is a book of constitution in addition to it's role as a religious scripture.
Is it right for a religion to play that role, is another question out of the current scope. But when talking about the political facet of Islam, then you rather sort it along with capitalism and communism instead of Christianity and Judaism. I am not sure if I am clear on this, but believe me, it will make a big difference and you will understand things more. I am trying to provide a key element to how to handle it and avoid wasting your time.
In Islam, there is so much debate on caliphism and politics, just imagine the debate among different capitalist parties or communist parties... Something like that. If you get deeper you will find the topic ramifying even further within the one sect, just like how views can differ within the so and so party in a socialist country for example. Taliban and Usamah bin Laden have the theories of their own, they have an agenda for which they have justifications and some interpretations of Quran that sometimes are so different from the interpretation of the rest. Here I tend to follow my commonsense about the interpretation as well as about the agenda and the theory of the Muslim state.
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Thanks, interesting posts! The first one, Pygmo.
Just wondered how many people agreed with clouds' understanding. :)
LORDMUS
23-07-10, 02:52 AM
Thanks, interesting posts! The first one, Pygmo.
Just wondered how many people agreed with clouds' understanding. :)
You do get people who hold such view in every religion.People who take their religion to a depth that it lets them suffocate.I am saying this as I have come across such people over other "forums" where I am much more active.
Also from what I have heard about the usage of the term "Wahabi" is that it's used in a de-meaning and mocking manner to the name of Allah.Some even go to an extent of not using "Smilies" as it reflects human emotion.
.........
.... Shouldn't he/she be intrugued on the purpose of having a face ?
Haroundb
24-07-10, 04:02 AM
Go out and conquer non-Muslims and then give them a choice--
1. Convert willingly to Islam;
2. Pay the jizya;
3. Die.
:D
The options:
1. Convert willingly to Islam;
This one is clear no need for explanation.
2. Pay the jizya;
It is same as Zakat which Muslims pay, and if you ask yourself: "They aren't Muslims to pay what is equal to Zakat" I would tell you that, true but they are now literary living in an area which is fully under Islamic authority.
They pay Jizya for Muslims to protect them not to buy chocolate with it. And so if the Islamic regime who is ruling at that time was unable to protect them, then according to the rules of Jiziay they will be eligable to get a refund.
So this Jizya isn't a form of suppression to pay jizya but it is the 'fee' to get them protected against any aggression because of their inability to protect themselves. We all know that an army needs weapons and have huge expenses, so if they are able to defend themselves then they are not forced to pay Jizya but then they have to get their soldiers to pledge under the flag of Islam (as an alliance with Muslims) since Muslims where ruling this area.
So if both cases isn't possible (they can't pay and they don't have strong men who can contribute) they are excluded from paying the Jizya.
Now if they are able to pay money for their protection, and they are able to protect themselves without any support and still they don't want to pay Jizya nor they want to be on the side of Muslims, then it is war against them! WHY? because what else they would be? With enemies of course!
That time war against Islam was running, and so it wasn't a 'News' to anyone to hear that a tribe has refused to pay Jizya and they decided to fight back!
So it is like that:
Muslims Conquer a land --> (either) --> Join Islam --> Fight as Muslims (or) --> Pay Jizya --> (or) --> Refuse to be Allied with Muslims ---> Muslims fight them *Naturally get defeated*---> Pay Jizya by force (War is running) ---> ...etc.
Till the whole land is cleared from tyranny of those who rule their people and block them from (Getting To Know) Islam. So it wasn't a pleasant event for the leaders of these pagan tribes that a new Religion which called Islam is going to make them equal to their slaves.
So actually Islam is freeing people from their false bounds as it was the time not to hide and not to stay low because nothing now is hidden and everyone should see and learn then think and decide. Paying Jizya is something to give a man time to "think it out". So paying Jizya is a "Privilege " to non-Muslims to get protected without being exposed to the dangers of war and death.
A Good Question:
Why would the option of joining Islam is to be only "Willingly"?
Isn't it much easier to force people to join Islam or else "die"? That wasn't the case because joining Islam isn't something you do because you have to, but something you do because you like and comfortable to do.
Conclusion is, Jizya isn't a fine you pay for your mistake, (as narrow minded people think), it is a contribution for a service that is provided for Non-Muslims who live in an Islamic regime. We pay taxes for everything; roads, hospitals, tanks and jet fighters, electricity , water ...etc. You can't say I will not pay...Right?! Same thing goes for Jizya, what would happen if you refuse to pay your taxes? What if the whole town agreed not to pay their taxes? Aren't this a declare of War against the system?
3. Die.
I don't know anything about it. I didn't read in the history of Muslims conquering lands that a man refused to join Islam or pay Jizya have been executed or beheaded! Really from where you got that piece of information?
Thanks.
Alhamask
24-07-10, 04:44 AM
@Haroundb, Some tyranical rulers of the past did Conquer non Muslim lands and forced them to Islam. Some went as far as forcing some of the greater Imams to spread their levels of understanding within the lands of Muslims. As a result, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik and a great deal of many others had to undergo a lot of torture when they fiercely resisted such a move. This is well documented history. But is it the fault of Islam?? No! Similarly, we cannot blame Christianity for the suffering and pain inflicted on Muslims and Serphadic Jews in Andalusia by some Christians.
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^^
So good to see you back, Haroun! :)
Look, the heart of the question is not the three options.
The heart of the question is:
Who are you to be conquering us and giving us options at all?
I mean, I guess there are understandings of jizya that are perfectly nice and reasonable like yours. Though there are also understandings like that of Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Quran commentators, that say that the PURPOSE of jizya is to humiliate and belittle and communicate to non-Muslims their inferiority.
But when we are talking about OFFENSIVE jihad, we are talking about going out and conquering countries which have not attacked or threatened you, solely because non-Muslims have no right to rule anyplace and Muslims have the duty to rule over them if they can.
I think you can see that most non-Muslims are going to find the idea of OFFENSIVE jihad, well....offensive. :D
Conquering a country because it is non-Muslim and offering it those three choices--even if you leave aside the question of what jizya really means--is going to be a problem for those of us who don't accept Islam. Naturally! :)
Alhamsk:
Could you give me some references for those facts? I find them VERY interesting. Thanks! :)
Pygmalion
24-07-10, 11:17 AM
Also from what I have heard about the usage of the term "Wahabi" is that it's used in a de-meaning and mocking manner to the name of Allah.?
My lord,
Wahabi is a term used by non-wahabi Sunni to distinguish their views for the wahabi ones, it is amazing how they themselves dislike the distinction and insist on that their way is the Sunni way. They should be proud of being related to Aallah, al wahab. Also, why do we call sodomy in Arabic? Loaat right? Is int that even more demeaning to the prophet Loat? I hate that name, I would rather call it Sadoomiah after the vanished town of Sadoom.
They explicitly derogatory terms like khwaraj for ibadhis and rawafith for Shia and they refuse wahabi for themselves, Why are they so touch about it? They came up with all kind of names like matreediah jamiah jahimyah and ashairah to label people left and right.
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I think they prefer to call themselves "Salafis". Either way the hate preached by many of them is a bigger threat to the Umma than a billion armed Zionists could ever be. The sooner we recognise that and clean up our own house the better. But all the time we are turning "sheikhs" into priests and bishops, preaching war instead of peace, and putting anyone with a loud voice as intermediaries between us and our duties as Muslims, we will be weak and punished for it.
Haroundb
24-07-10, 04:11 PM
^^
Who are you to be conquering us and giving us options at all?
Thanks brother Jeff, yah.. Was busy lately :)
Don't say "Who are you..." If you don't know who are Muslims then read throw history and you will know who are we!" The rule of conquering is just applicable when Muslims are in their strength to endure leadership, so it is not now for sure! But you can always go and check with your sources where did Islam reach in far Spain and China! Islam at that time was No.1 and there were no other force or empire that were able to defeat Muslims in any battle they have fought!
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I mean, I guess there are understandings of jizya that are perfectly nice and reasonable like yours. Though there are also understandings like that of Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Quran commentators, that say that the PURPOSE of jizya is to humiliate and belittle and communicate to non-Muslims their inferiority.
From where you got that? Actually I feel sad for those who don't know the Arabic language and keep opening the dictionary to get something to chew and spread the hatred among non-Muslims.
Brother Jeff, it is very clear that Allah says that no one to be forced to Islam, so how logically does that come along with the idea of humiliating those who refuse to join Islam?
I don't blame you when you say "Who are you to be conquering us and giving us options at all?" but I am sure that your body would have shivered when the word "Muslims" is to be pronounced infront of you 1000 years ago!
Yessssssssss it is history, but I am just replying to "Who are you" statement.
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Actuly we shouldn't forget that One reason for the rapid Muslim success with their conquest was the generous surrender terms that they offered the people, which contrasted with the harsh conditions imposed by the previous Visigoth rulers.
read... BBC - Religions.
Life for non-Muslims in Islamic Spain
Jews and Christians did retain some freedom under Muslim rule, providing they obeyed certain rules. Although these rules would now be considered completely unacceptable, they were not much of a burden by the standards of the time, and in many ways the non-Muslims of Islamic Spain (at least before 1050) were treated better than conquered peoples might have expected during that period of history.
they were not forced to live in ghettoes or other special locations
they were not slaves
they were not prevented from following their faith
they were not forced to convert or die under Muslim rule
they were not banned from any particular ways of earning a living; they often took on jobs shunned by Muslims;
these included unpleasant work such as tanning and butchery
but also pleasant jobs such as banking and dealing in gold and silver
they could work in the civil service of the Islamic rulers
Jews and Christians were able to contribute to society and culture
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml)
I am very proud of my ancestor Muslims who were really leaders in all meaning of the word. Those people were men of honor, they love their God, and Prophets and really going for the good of humanity. Sad that they are all now ashes!
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