What do you think about this hadith?

[Reluctant]

I want to know what people think about this hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari. :) Does it contradict science? Why or why not?

3235 ـ حدثنا محمد بن يوسف، حدثنا سفيان، عن الأعمش، عن إبراهيم التيمي، عن أبيه، عن أبي ذر ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قال قال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لأبي ذر حين غربت الشمس ‏"‏ تدري أين تذهب ‏"‏‏.‏ قلت الله ورسوله أعلم‏.‏ قال ‏"‏ فإنها تذهب حتى تسجد تحت العرش، فتستأذن فيؤذن لها، ويوشك أن تسجد فلا يقبل منها، وتستأذن فلا يؤذن لها، يقال لها ارجعي من حيث جئت‏.‏ فتطلع من مغربها، فذلك قوله تعالى ‏{‏والشمس تجري لمستقر لها ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم ‏}‏‏"‏‏.‏

http://www.al-eman.com/hadeeth/viewchp.asp?BID=13&CID=121#s2
http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=54&translator=1&start=0&number=421

Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

However, we know that the sun does not go anywhere. The sun does not rise and set, it's the movement of the earth around the sun which is responsible for what we perceive as sunset. The sun is always shining somewhere on earth. If you travel on an airplane in a certain direction, the sun will stay in the same location, while it is obviously getting darker at the place where you took off. The sun doesn't prostrate under a throne and then rise again...it doesn't change location. And...if the sun were to rise in the west, this would mean that the earth would have to change, not the sun. However, the hadith says the sun will be the one that will be ordered to rise.

Of course one can come up with rationalizations, but do you feel its wording and emphasis on the motion of the sun contradicts science? Why or why not?

[BrAiKi]

I say it doesn't make sense, if it literally means what it says.
But that's my own opinion.

[Jeff]

I've seen several ahadith that say stuff like this. Non-scientific sorts of things.

Why not say that those who collected the ahadith were human and collected some boners? Human science is human science. The ahadith are founded on scholarship, which may be good or great but is imperfect.

[BrAiKi]

That might be the case Jeff. Since it doesn't sound like its figuratively speaking.
Ahadeeth are not to be taken for granted to be 100% correct even if it's from what is classified as "sahih" (a correct authentic hadeeth). Because many of them would make sense in the time they were declared as "correct" but future proves otherwise.

[Jeff]

That sounds healthy to me, Braiki. Although I can't really judge, not being a Muslim.

But no one has ever answered that for me.

Quran is Quran. It's from God, according to you.

But the ahadith are not from God. They are from men. Men make mistakes.

Do you want to say God guarded Bukhari and those he relied on to make his work perfect?

If not, then the sahih judgment is provisional.

If you read Bukhari carefully you see all kinds of interesting things.

For example, he often includes multiple versions of ahadith with different wording, one right after another.

Obviously, they relate to the same saying. But the wording and sometimes the idea even is a bit different.

Many Muslims today seem to be doing critical thinking about the ahadith. And that's a good thing. It creates problems...thinking always does.

But when faced with something like this or the seven heavens and the stars as lamps or dunking a flies wing in your drink as a cure, you gotta do some careful examination.

[Neena]

I want to know what people think about this hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari. :) Does it contradict science? Why or why not?

3235 ـ حدثنا محمد بن يوسف، حدثنا سفيان، عن الأعمش، عن إبراهيم التيمي، عن أبيه، عن أبي ذر ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قال قال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لأبي ذر حين غربت الشمس ‏"‏ تدري أين تذهب ‏"‏‏.‏ قلت الله ورسوله أعلم‏.‏ قال ‏"‏ فإنها تذهب حتى تسجد تحت العرش، فتستأذن فيؤذن لها، ويوشك أن تسجد فلا يقبل منها، وتستأذن فلا يؤذن لها، يقال لها ارجعي من حيث جئت‏.‏ فتطلع من مغربها، فذلك قوله تعالى ‏{‏والشمس تجري لمستقر لها ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم ‏}‏‏"‏‏.‏

http://www.al-eman.com/hadeeth/viewchp.asp?BID=13&CID=121#s2
http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=54&translator=1&start=0&number=421

Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

However, we know that the sun does not go anywhere. The sun does not rise and set, it's the movement of the earth around the sun which is responsible for what we perceive as sunset. The sun is always shining somewhere on earth. If you travel on an airplane in a certain direction, the sun will stay in the same location, while it is obviously getting darker at the place where you took off. The sun doesn't prostrate under a throne and then rise again...it doesn't change location. And...if the sun were to rise in the west, this would mean that the earth would have to change, not the sun. However, the hadith says the sun will be the one that will be ordered to rise.

Of course one can come up with rationalizations, but do you feel its wording and emphasis on the motion of the sun contradicts science? Why or why not?

I guess the real issue of the above hadith it says that the sun sets and rises and during it doing that it prostrates under the Throne and than one day it will be commanded by Allah to rise from its setting place.

After that, the major sign of the Judgment day will occur, where all ppl will witness this and than they will believe.

Was looking about other comments on this hadith, and there are many talks about it, as there are times the Quran would talk about this, which in reality it does not occur, like the moon being appointed stages, the stars setting and so on.

[Alex Belucci]

As Braiki's first post, makes no sense it if literally meant what it said!

[Alhamask]

However, we know that the sun does not go anywhere. The sun does not rise and set,

That’s what we know so far & will we ever conquer all knowledge??......''Of Knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you." (Quran, Al-Israa, 17:85)

According to the Quran (Al-Anbiyaa 21:33) the Sun follows its own Orbit.

Fix that Hadeeth after any of the following Ayaat (keeping in mind Al-Imran 3:7) and then it all makes sense:

Ar-Ra’ad 13:2 or

Luqman 31:29 or

Fatir 35:13 or

Az-Zumar 29:5

[jack]

This hadeth has obviously been proven to be false.

Really no more to say about it.

[Lacrymosa]

I don't think it is meant literally.

[clouds]

According to an authentic hadith of Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet, peace be upon him, asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

The significance of Syedna Abu Dhar’s statement (may God be pleased with him), “Allah and His Apostle know better”, should not be underestimated. It does not mean that Syedna Abu Dhar (may God be pleased with him) or the Arabs of the 7th century had no idea where the Sun went after setting. Rather, it was routine with the Companions to answer any question of the Prophet, peace be upon him, with these words even if they knew the answer, the only exception being when they realized that the Prophet, peace be upon him, was specifically demanding for an answer. This was because they knew what was meant by the term adab (i.e. love and reverence) of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). In this context, I am reminded of Shakespeare’s Taming of the Shrew, where Petruchio tames his spoiled wife to such an extent that when he points at the Sun and says that it is the Moon, she agrees with him, and when he says that it is not the Moon but the Sun indeed, she again agrees with him. I wish we too could learn such adab.

The phrase, “It goes (i.e. travels)” cannot be forced to mean that it travels around a fixed earth. Such an inference can be made if the words had been, “It goes on around the earth”. In the hadith, however, the phrase “It goes” simply means that it goes on in whatever orbit has been assigned to it.

The Sun prostrates when it reaches the Throne, yet in our scientific observation, the Sun is never seen to prostrate to any Throne. Instead, it is observed to be orbiting the center of our galaxy at a speed of about 800,000 kilometers per hour. The reason for our inability to observe the prostration of the Sun is that the Throne lies in the Unseen (the Gha'ib). The laws of physics hold true only in the physical universe (the Seen). The laws of the metaphysical universe (the Unseen) are known only to Almighty God or to whom He gives special sanction. It is not for us to speculate on the Unseen. Note also the following Qur’anic verses:

And to God prostate all things that are in the Heavens and all things that are in the Earth, of the live moving creatures and the angels, and they are not proud [i.e. they worship their Lord with humility] (16:49)

See you not that to God prostrates whoever is in the Heavens and whoever is on the Earth, and the Sun, and the Moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the live moving creatures, and many of humankind? But there are many [people] on whom the Punishment is justified. And whomsoever God disgraces, none can honor him. Verily! God does what He wills. (22:18)

And the herbs [or stars] and the trees both prostrate (55:6)

The manner in which all of the non-human creation prostrate to God is not observable to us through scientific methods because it is a matter of the Unseen that was shown only to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Likewise, the prostration of the Sun is just as unobservable as the prostration of the trees and mountains.

This hadith is very important in that it underscores the fact that a Muslim is by definition one who believes in the Unseen:

Those who believe in the Unseen (Qur’an:2,3)

A Prophet is by definition one who brings news from the Unseen (nabi, the Arabic word for prophet, means ‘one who brings news’); a believer is one who listens to this news and believes in the truthfulness of the news-bringer, salla Allah o alaihe wa aaalehi wa sallam.

Braiki and Bahith I would like to remind you of this verse:

{‏إِنَّمَا كَانَ قَوْلَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذَا دُعُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ

لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَهُمْ أَنْ يَقُولُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ‏‏{ [النور،51]



"The saying of the faithful believers

when they are called to Allah (His

Words-the Qur'an) and His Messenger

(PBUH) to judge between them is only

that they say: 'We hear and we obey.'

And such are the successful (who will

live for ever in Aj-Jannah)." (Qur'an 24: 51-52)

[Reluctant]

Thank you for that clouds, jazakAllah khair.

[Ghazzali]

Of course one can come up with rationalizations, but do you feel its wording and emphasis on the motion of the sun contradicts science? Why or why not?

ِYou're avjar7 from ShiaChat isn't? Maybe this answer will satisfy you:


Therefore, there's many ways to understand the hadiths. However, it is clear that the Prophet http://www.shiachat.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/pbuh.gif and Islam are the truth. And as the Prophet http://www.shiachat.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/pbuh.gif said, he only speaks the truth. Thus, even if we don't reject these narrations, we know by applying these standards that we should not take them scientifically literally, and if we do accept them, relegate their meanings to that which does not contradict fact. And through this religion and science will not conflict, and Shias can progress and research science knowing that Islam and scientific truth can never be in conflict with each other. From this first narration, it shows that Shi'ism always has a built-in mechanism for progress that others do not have. http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234974557-earthquakes/

This has been said about ahadith found in Twelver Shi`a books that whales are the cause of "earthquakes".

[Russo_turisto]

The sun does have a trajectory of its own -- the Ecliptic, so I wouldn't discard this hadeeth as lacking any sense, even though its second part seems quite far from scientific truth, we all know that East and West, like right and left, are relative.

[LORDMUS]

Hm.. Whats the big deal? A primitive question indeed.Star just like any other celestial object are subject to their own along with other driving forces. Which are gravitational.So I see nothing wrong with the above hadeeth mentioned rather it tells us of it having an orbit " a fixed line of recurring movement" o.0
"Binary stars".... also it's all known that our solar system is about 14 light years away from the equatorial symmetry.Yes even a galaxy has equator.
=)
Again much of the Narration of the holy prophet ( <3 pbuh) are not taken literally.

[Jihad4Truth]

Of course one can come up with rationalizations, but do you feel its wording and emphasis on the motion of the sun contradicts science? Why or why not?

Because back in the old days, 1000 plus years ago, humans did not understand how the world works.

They thought the Earth was flat. The universe revolved around the Earth. Etc etc.

So humans made up religion and other fantastic stories to explain that which they did not understand, and to wield power over the dumb masses.

And unfortunately, most people today still believe in it, because the social pressure to believe in religion is more powerful than their own cognitive reasoning which knows better.