The Signs of Judgment day & Freewill

[freemind]

The Prophet :PBUH: has left us with signs for the coming of the Judgement day. Now, most of these signs are based on human actions. Some of them are as listed below:


The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread (Bukhari & Muslim)
Killing, killing, killing (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
Women will conspire (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)


Source (http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html)
Also some are mentioned here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Last_Judgment#Minor_Signs)

Now my question is, if human actions were already known before hand, dosen't it mean these human actions are pre-decided ? But if human actions are pre-decided, then how do we have free will ?

I hope I made my question clear, if otherwise, let me know.

[El Rey]

I really don't understand why some people don't get the idea of free will. I don't know why they relate it with Allah's intervene in the human actions. It's not that complicated. In simple words it's like this:

We believe that Allah is omniscient. He created us and He's close to us than our own veins. He knows how we think, react and what's in our mind. Him being omniscient makes Him able to predict what we're going to do. This doesn't mean He intervened in our actions. He just knew it. He knew that you will open this thread but He didn't force you to open it, did He?

We humans can sometimes predict what others can do, what objects can make and how animals can act, we're just humans whose brains are limited. How about the omniscient?!

[MorphaKnight]

The simplest way to explain it is as if Life is a movie that God watched more than once. So, as an audience, He knows what the actors in that movie will do.

[freemind]

I really don't understand why some people don't get the idea of free will. I don't know why they relate it with Allah's intervene in the human actions. It's not that complicated. In simple words it's like this:

We believe that Allah is omniscient. He created us and He's close to us than our own veins. He knows how we think, react and what's in our mind. Him being omniscient makes Him able to predict what we're going to do. This doesn't mean He intervened in our actions. He just knew it. He knew that you will open this thread but He didn't force you to open it, did He?

We humans can sometimes predict what others can do, what objects can make and how animals can act, we're just humans whose brains are limited. How about the omniscient?!

Not that simple Rey. Human actions are always a result of what they have faced in life. Their experiences. And experiences comes for situations you see in life.
A child who has seen their parent fighting all their life will have a different perspective of marriage, and the same child who has had a happy childhood with happy parents has a different perspective of life. Our decisions at every point are based on the experiences we have had before. But these experiences/situations are not chosen by us.

So if I may conclude it this way, Decision come from situations. Situations are not chosen by us. Then how can we say decisions are chosen by us ?

[El Rey]

I agree that there are some external circumstances that might be out of our hands, but here comes the test Allah made for us humans. You don't expect to pass an exam without studying and passing some difficult questions and formulas. Paradise path is full of tests and difficulties. Besides, how come Allah Choose our actions while there are many disbelievers on HIm? There are many people who disobey Him? If I control you then you're supposed to do what I want hence I make you do so. Don't you see the contradiction?

Here are some verses from the holy quran about the free will though I don't know if you as agnostic will consider them but I just want to tell you what Allah Himself says about free will:

“Had Allah willed, He would have brought them all together to the guidance; if thy Lord had willed whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together.” (Yunus: 99)

“Had Allah willed, they were not idolaters; and We have not appointed thee a watcher over them neither art thou their guardian.” (Al-An`am: 107)

“Say: The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.” (Al-Kahf: 29)

Yes Allah Can make us all follow Him and this is not a difficult task for Him, yet He Made us special, He gave us a mind to think with, a heart to feel with and then a faith to follow and thus he preffered us to feel His knowledge, power and justness.

[IceTea]

Refer to the story mentioned in Surat Al-Khaf (the cave) between Prophet Mosa PBUH and the man to understand the concept of 'knowing' the future.

Allah swt knows the future (al-ghaib, or the unseen world) by his knowledge.

[freemind]

Sorry for the delay in replies, was caught up with work last few days.



“Had Allah willed, He would have brought them all together to the guidance; if thy Lord had willed whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together.” (Yunus: 99)

Yes Allah Can make us all follow Him and this is not a difficult task for Him, yet He Made us special, He gave us a mind to think with, a heart to feel with and then a faith to follow and thus he preffered us to feel His knowledge, power and justness.

That is something which has always baffled me, Allah is supposed to be all powerful, if he wants people to follow the right path, y not make people do it himself. Something like a voice from a the sky saying 'Islam is the right religion'. Sounds kiddish, but will be effective.
How can you blame a person, who is, lets say, born in the west, and brought up with the news everyday that Islam is the religion of terrorists and they just kill people. You know what his thinking about the religion would be, how do u even xpect a person to go n research about the religion and den follow it someday. Or take a kid, whose father died in the 9/11 attacks. or take a kid who has been molested by one of the figures of the church. Would he be ever give his full to Christianity again, thinking that the figures whom he is supposed to follow, are corrupted.
I am just giving you some examples of situations, that effect your 'so called' free will.

Our decisions are a result of our brain, and according to me, it takes these decision based on your previous experiences and the only other influential factor here, i think, would be the genes. If you look at it from a very micro level, thinking how every decision is made by you, and what if you had seen different circumstances, would you still have made that decision, you will understand what I mean.

[BrAiKi]

It's a complicated issue that needs to be seen from different angles.

I think each of us has a free will although the path is already drawn for you, but the fact that you don't know what will happen to you makes it your choice to take the path you'd be taking.

God's knowldge of how you will end up does not affect your choices, because he and only he knows about it.

Otherwise it won't be fair for those who were made to live a sinful life and eventually end up in Hell. (Although it was their choice to sin!)

blekh! it's complicated!

[E-Sensation]

These kind of questions had always stopped me to think. The truth is I don't really know the answers when it comes to fate. I actually support your question here, freemind.

I mean, I as a muslim, don't really know, I just believe in fate.. Lack of knowledge perhaps.. but I really don't know and would like to be enlightened about this.

When I say I have my own free will, then how come all the dicisions I will make today or tommorow are already written in a book and known by Allah(swt).. If it's already written, then how come I have a choice? If Allah(swt) already know the choices I will make, and I have to believe that He knows, then how come I have free will?

I do believe that Allah(swt) knows our future, our dicisions, and everything else because my religion asks me to believe and that is enough reason for me. But this just brings me to wonder, why when someone make a sin, Allah(swt) become angry at him/her when He already knew that this sin was going to happen. Or doesn't He?

I promise to do an extensive research about fate at least to find the answers I am looking for but in the mean time, if someone got an answer, let's hear it please. :)

[freemind]

Thanks Braiki and Esensation. You guys atleast understood the confusion :D

I am also researching on this topic, and that is why I started this thread, to know more public opinions on this. If anyone has any further insight, please share ..

[El Rey]

Sorry for the delay in replies, was caught up with work last few days.



That is something which has always baffled me, Allah is supposed to be all powerful, if he wants people to follow the right path, y not make people do it himself. Something like a voice from a the sky saying 'Islam is the right religion'. Sounds kiddish, but will be effective.
How can you blame a person, who is, lets say, born in the west, and brought up with the news everyday that Islam is the religion of terrorists and they just kill people. You know what his thinking about the religion would be, how do u even xpect a person to go n research about the religion and den follow it someday. Or take a kid, whose father died in the 9/11 attacks. or take a kid who has been molested by one of the figures of the church. Would he be ever give his full to Christianity again, thinking that the figures whom he is supposed to follow, are corrupted.
I am just giving you some examples of situations, that effect your 'so called' free will.

Our decisions are a result of our brain, and according to me, it takes these decision based on your previous experiences and the only other influential factor here, i think, would be the genes. If you look at it from a very micro level, thinking how every decision is made by you, and what if you had seen different circumstances, would you still have made that decision, you will understand what I mean.

I can climb a high mountain and shout Islam is the true religion if this will convince you :D

About having a stereotype about a specific religion and its effect in pushing someone away of this religion, I may agree that this might happen. But since when we base our judgements on something basing on others actions?! When you want to judge something you judge what it says directly not what its embracer does. However, I understand your point.

[Mimi]

Sorry for the delay in replies, was caught up with work last few days.



That is something which has always baffled me, Allah is supposed to be all powerful, if he wants people to follow the right path, y not make people do it himself. Something like a voice from a the sky saying 'Islam is the right religion'. Sounds kiddish, but will be effective.
How can you blame a person, who is, lets say, born in the west, and brought up with the news everyday that Islam is the religion of terrorists and they just kill people. You know what his thinking about the religion would be, how do u even xpect a person to go n research about the religion and den follow it someday. Or take a kid, whose father died in the 9/11 attacks. or take a kid who has been molested by one of the figures of the church. Would he be ever give his full to Christianity again, thinking that the figures whom he is supposed to follow, are corrupted.
I am just giving you some examples of situations, that effect your 'so called' free will.

Our decisions are a result of our brain, and according to me, it takes these decision based on your previous experiences and the only other influential factor here, i think, would be the genes. If you look at it from a very micro level, thinking how every decision is made by you, and what if you had seen different circumstances, would you still have made that decision, you will understand what I mean.

1. Allah did tell us He is the God and Islam is the right religion in the Quran and the Sunna. Is there any other god who did the same?

2. I also have thought of it before. If we know Islam is the right religion then it is unjust that someone is born far from Islam, and s/he has a wrong idea about it, so i was asking myself why it is like this until I figured it out in a verse:


"وَلَوْ عَلِمَ اللّهُ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا لَّأَسْمَعَهُمْ وَلَوْ أَسْمَعَهُمْ لَتَوَلَّواْ وَّهُم مُّعْرِضُونَ"

"If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: (As it is), if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined (Faith)."
(8:23)


3. Why God didnt let all of us be good? Why not study the names of God a little bit? God created us and everything because He is the Creator (alKhaaliq). If He didnt create us then how can He be the Creator, who would see He is the Creator? He also is the Forgiver (alGhaffaar). If He didnt create us, whom could he forgive? If He didnt create us sinful, who could he forgive? He also is the Giver of Dishounor (alMuthil), if all of us were good and ask for forgiveness, then whom could He give dishounor on the Day of Judgement? :p

He is the Mighty (alAziiz), the Majestic (alMutakabbir!).

[freemind]

I can climb a high mountain and shout Islam is the true religion if this will convince you :D

LOL .. u can try that, if your voice from the mountain reaches each and every human in the world, in a language they understand, I will be convinced :D



About having a stereotype about a specific religion and its effect in pushing someone away of this religion, I may agree that this might happen. But since when we base our judgements on something basing on others actions?! When you want to judge something you judge what it says directly not what its embracer does. However, I understand your point.

that's the irony Rey, our judgments are always based on other actions. Either our's or other's actions. That is what I have been trying to convey in the entire thread.

[freemind]

"وَلَوْ عَلِمَ اللّهُ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا لَّأَسْمَعَهُمْ وَلَوْ أَسْمَعَهُمْ لَتَوَلَّواْ وَّهُم مُّعْرِضُونَ"

"If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: (As it is), if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined (Faith)."
(8:23)

If Allah already knows who will listen to Him and who wont, who will be faithful and who wont, they why go through the entire process of sending them to earth, then they disbelieve, and then they are sent to hell.
Just send them directly to hell.

[Mimi]

If Allah already knows who will listen to Him and who wont, who will be faithful and who wont, they why go through the entire process of sending them to earth, then they disbelieve, and then they are sent to hell.
Just send them directly to hell.

What do you think the purpose of point #3 I stated there is?

[freemind]

What do you think the purpose of point #3 I stated there is?

Thats even more funny Eloquor, let me re-quote that for you :



Why God didnt let all of us be good? Why not study the names of God a little bit? God created us and everything because He is the Creator (alKhaaliq). If He didnt create us then how can He be the Creator, who would see He is the Creator? He also is the Forgiver (alGhaffaar). If He didnt create us, whom could he forgive? If He didnt create us sinful, who could he forgive? He also is the Giver of Dishounor (alMuthil), if all of us were good and ask for forgiveness, then whom could He give dishounor on the Day of Judgement?
So you are saying, he created us sinful, so that he would have some1 to forgive. He created some of us bad, so that he could dishonour them on the day of judgment

R U KIDDING ME !

[Aba_Thar]

These kind of questions had always stopped me to think. The truth is I don't really know the answers when it comes to fate. I actually support your question here, freemind.

I mean, I as a muslim, don't really know, I just believe in fate.. Lack of knowledge perhaps.. but I really don't know and would like to be enlightened about this.

When I say I have my own free will, then how come all the dicisions I will make today or tommorow are already written in a book and known by Allah(swt).. If it's already written, then how come I have a choice? If Allah(swt) already know the choices I will make, and I have to believe that He knows, then how come I have free will?

I do believe that Allah(swt) knows our future, our dicisions, and everything else because my religion asks me to believe and that is enough reason for me. But this just brings me to wonder, why when someone make a sin, Allah(swt) become angry at him/her when He already knew that this sin was going to happen. Or doesn't He?

I promise to do an extensive research about fate at least to find the answers I am looking for but in the mean time, if someone got an answer, let's hear it please. :)

Salam Alaikum Brother E-Sensation,

I have heard a nice example regarding this topic it made sense to me, dont know if it would make sense to u. The Example:

A man lost his hand in a war or accident, then they fixed his hand with an electronic or machine kind of hand, now the power of this hand is fully from the battrey only. If this man killed someone, who gets blamed? the battrey? or the man? same thing here, got gave us energy and power, but when we commit a crime la sama7 allah, who should get blamed?

When u start ur search I think one of the important questions that should be searched: هل الإنسان مخير أم مسير؟ Is a Human being forced to do something? or doing it by his own choice?

Fee Aman Allah.

[Mimi]

Thats even more funny Eloquor, let me re-quote that for you :

So you are saying, he created us sinful, so that he would have some1 to forgive. He created some of us bad, so that he could dishonour them on the day of judgment

R U KIDDING ME !

So it is a joke. Is that your argument?

[El Rey]

that's the irony Rey, our judgments are always based on other actions. Either our's or other's actions. That is what I have been trying to convey in the entire thread.

But is this right?

[freemind]

But is this right?

hence the discussion :D

[Rozan]

We choose our paths and actions by ourselves. The fact that God has known our moves already doesn't mean that these moves are predetermined! Knowing about something doesn't mean predetermining/pre-deciding that thing. Hope you get what I mean. :)

[freemind]

The fact that God has known our moves already doesn't mean that these moves are predetermined!

Isn't that Ironic ? If someone knows what is going to happen, dosen't it mean it is pre-decided ?

[Booth]

Knowing an action will happen doesn't affect the action itself, and whatever consequences of it I know Spain is playing against Portugal, but I don't know which will win.

God Made us eat and drink, he know we will it at this time this. But God knowing that will not affect my brain's choice of food. So there's a decree of fate and there's the choice we make.

[freemind]

Knowing an action will happen doesn't affect the action itself, and whatever consequences of it I know Spain is playing against Portugal, but I don't know which will win.

God Made us eat and drink, he know we will it at this time this. But God knowing that will not affect my brain's choice of food. So there's a decree of fate and there's the choice we make.

I agree, we know Spain is playing Portugal, but we don't know who will win. But God knows. Infact he knows that Villa, Fabregas and Ronaldo will score in the match (assuming) and at what minute. But then dosen't this become like a giant script, which is just being enacted by us. There is no choice, when the result is pre-decided.

God knows what we are going to eat at what time, what good we are going to do, what bad we are going to do.
Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that. How does that make sense ?

[Aba_Thar]

I agree, we know Spain is playing Portugal, but we don't know who will win. But God knows. Infact he knows that Villa, Fabregas and Ronaldo will score in the match (assuming) and at what minute. But then dosen't this become like a giant script, which is just being enacted by us. There is no choice, when the result is pre-decided.

God knows what we are going to eat at what time, what good we are going to do, what bad we are going to do.
Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that. How does that make sense ?

Lets assume Ma3ath Allah that God doesnt knows our actions? won't that make him kinda shorten? wont that make people still complain "How God is God and doesnt knows our actions?"

رضا الناس غاية لا تدرك

[freemind]

Lets assume Ma3ath Allah that God doesnt knows our actions? won't that make him kinda shorten? wont that make people still complain "How God is God and doesnt knows our actions?"

رضا الناس غاية لا تدرك

Aba Thar, but if the above fact is correct then the question I asked b4 is very valid


Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that How does that make sense ?

Its a logical question, don't you think?

[Mimi]

Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that. How does that make sense ?

This question is logical to an extent depending on how much you know and how you understand some things.

I myself had this question, but it doesn't make ANY sense to me now, and it wouldn't to you (if you understood sth!) when you take what I said there seriously and study the names of God. Read the introduction of a book called محمد رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم by Said Hawwa. He speaks logic.

And i have a question, freemind, do you know the difference between alqadar and alqaDaa2? or maybe my question should have been, do you know why there's alqadar AND alqaDaa2 in Islam?

[Soulless]

Now my question is, if human actions were already known before hand, dosen't it mean these human actions are pre-decided ? But if human actions are pre-decided, then how do we have free will ?

I hope I made my question clear, if otherwise, let me know.

Your question was clear and i'v went through the same phase , i mean when i read Sorat Al Kahaf / The Cave , verse number 74 , 80 , 81

74. Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"

80. "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).

81. "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.

am talking about the young boy who was slayed by al Khudor 3laih al salam , god already knew he was gonna grow up as a bad guy so he asked al khudor to slay him , but what i feel that this young boy was not given a chance to choose his path and his life was ended too early , which made me ask my self are our action decided by us or they are predecided by allah ?

[Angel_Eyes]

The simplest way to explain it is as if Life is a movie that God watched more than once. So, as an audience, He knows what the actors in that movie will do.

I agree with this.

[Soulless]

^ yeah indeed because god is some thing beyond our comprehension.

[Manta]

It's a complicated issue that needs to be seen from different angles.

I think each of us has a free will although the path is already drawn for you, but the fact that you don't know what will happen to you makes it your choice to take the path you'd be taking.

God's knowldge of how you will end up does not affect your choices, because he and only he knows about it.
Otherwise it won't be fair for those who were made to live a sinful life and eventually end up in Hell. (Although it was their choice to sin!)

blekh! it's complicated!:yes::yes::yes:

[freemind]

Your question was clear and i'v went through the same phase , i mean when i read Sorat Al Kahaf / The Cave , verse number 74 , 80 , 81

74. Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"

80. "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).

81. "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.

am talking about the young boy who was slayed by al Khudor 3laih al salam , god already knew he was gonna grow up as a bad guy so he asked al khudor to slay him , but what i feel that this young boy was not given a chance to choose his path and his life was ended too early , which made me ask my self are our action decided by us or they are predecided by allah ?


Exactly my point Soulless. Thanks for stating it from another angle, through some examples from Quran.

[freemind]

The simplest way to explain it is as if Life is a movie that God watched more than once. So, as an audience, He knows what the actors in that movie will do.


I agree with this.

If life is a movie, are we following a fixed script ?

[E-Sensation]

Okay back after some research. :)

Some of the interesting thoughts I read was pointing to the thought that the question: "do we have free will or not?" is actually wrong to ask. The reason is that when you ask this question, you only expect these two answers:

1. Yes we are. Which is not totally true because we didn't come to this life by our own free will. And further.. we still didn't do everything we wished for in this life...I mean, sometimes we wish for so many things but they don't happen, and sometimes we don't wish for anything but they still happen. So how can we say we have free will? This makes this answer wrong.

2. No, we don't have free will. This answer is wrong as well because if we don't have freewill then how come God will judge us upon our deeds?

And logically speaking, When the two probabilities of answering a true or false question are both wrong, then the question itself is wrong.

To be continued...

[Aba_Thar]

If life is a movie, are we following a fixed script ?

God knowing our deeds is something, and God forcing us to do is something totally different which we should differentiate.

God's hidden knowledge is actually a blessing to his slaves or 3ibad, because that what motivates each person to work on his deads, and look forward to target a good conclusion. Again it wouldnt make sense that our creator doesnt knows the future, where it makes sense that our creator knows the future but he gave us the power of choice, thats y you can see that some people might have a bad beggining such as disbelieving in God, but then they end up as believers and the other way around. We should differentiate between knowledge of God, and God forcing us to do stuff.

[E-Sensation]

In the holy Qur'an, there is a verse that clearly states the following(in meaning): "Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise." _ Sourat Al Insan (30)

"وَمَا تَشَآءُونَ إِلَّآ أَن يَشَآءَ ٱللَّهُ*ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمً۬ا"

In this verse specifically, Allah(swt) tells us that we can have a will, but this will of ours can't happen until He wishes for it to happen. Meaning, when we do something, it is because He allowed us to do it otherwise it won't have happened. Or if we wished for something and He didn't allow it, it will not happen no matter what.

A good example I found about this is, two men were on a plane. One is a muslim and the other was non-muslim. The non muslim asked the muslim when are we going to reach our destination? The muslim said Insha' Allah after one hour. The non muslim laughed and said, why do you say Insha' Allah? He said because if Allah didn't wish for us to reach after one hour we won't. The non-muslim refused to accept the idea untill they reached to the airplane of their destination. Then the pilot said that they can't land because of fog and landing is not allowed and they have to land in another airport.

Hence why we muslims say "Insha' Allah" when we wish to do anything. Because we believe that if Allah didn't allow what we are willing to do, we will never be able to do it. In other words, we have limited freedom of will and this freedom of will is connected to Allah's wish only. We don't have a total free of will nor are we not free at all.

[Aba_Thar]

In the holy Qur'an, there is a verse that clearly states the following(in meaning): "Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise." _ Sourat Al Insan (30)

"وَمَا تَشَآءُونَ إِلَّآ أَن يَشَآءَ ٱللَّهُ*ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمً۬ا"

In this verse specifically, Allah(swt) tells us that we can have a will, but this will of ours can't happen until He wishes for it to happen. Meaning, when we do something, it is because He allowed us to do it otherwise it won't have happened. Or if we wished for something and He didn't allow it, it will not happen no matter what.

A good example I found about this is, two men were on a plane. One is a muslim and the other was non-muslim. The non muslim asked the muslim when are we going to reach our destination? The muslim said Insha' Allah after one hour. The non muslim laughed and said, why do you say Insha' Allah? He said because if Allah didn't wish for us to reach after one hour we won't. The non-muslim refused to accept the idea untill they reached to the airplane of their destination. Then the pilot said that they can't land because of fog and landing is not allowed and they have to land in another airport.

Hence why we muslims say "Insha' Allah" when we wish to do anything. Because we believe that if Allah didn't allow what we are willing to do, we will never be able to do it. In other words, we have limited freedom of will and this freedom of will is connected to Allah's wish only. We don't have a total free of will nor are we not free at all.

well said E-sensation, I have another example to add:

A man who lost his hand, and a machine type of hand is added to him which works through electricity or battrey, when this hand does bad deeds for example, the electricity or the battrey doesnt gets blaimed, the electricity or the battrey just supported the hand with power, but not forcing it to do some kind of action.

[freemind]

In the holy Qur'an, there is a verse that clearly states the following(in meaning): "Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise." _ Sourat Al Insan (30)

"وَمَا تَشَآءُونَ إِلَّآ أَن يَشَآءَ ٱللَّهُ*ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمً۬ا"

In this verse specifically, Allah(swt) tells us that we can have a will, but this will of ours can't happen until He wishes for it to happen. Meaning, when we do something, it is because He allowed us to do it otherwise it won't have happened. Or if we wished for something and He didn't allow it, it will not happen no matter what.

A good example I found about this is, two men were on a plane. One is a muslim and the other was non-muslim. The non muslim asked the muslim when are we going to reach our destination? The muslim said Insha' Allah after one hour. The non muslim laughed and said, why do you say Insha' Allah? He said because if Allah didn't wish for us to reach after one hour we won't. The non-muslim refused to accept the idea untill they reached to the airplane of their destination. Then the pilot said that they can't land because of fog and landing is not allowed and they have to land in another airport.

Hence why we muslims say "Insha' Allah" when we wish to do anything. Because we believe that if Allah didn't allow what we are willing to do, we will never be able to do it. In other words, we have limited freedom of will and this freedom of will is connected to Allah's wish only. We don't have a total free of will nor are we not free at all.

E-Sensation, there is a bit of confusion here. What you are talking about are the circumstances/situation. The situations we face in life are never chosen by us, that is a fact. Either it happens randomly, or planned by God, I dont know. But not the point of discussion. Like in your example above, appearance of fog changing the landing location, or road accident where some1 else comes crashing into you, these are situations you cannot decide.
What we are talking about here, is the free will of the person to take his own decisions. Like in the above example, due to fog, the pilot has a decision to either land immediately or proceed with the normal schedule, both having only 50% of survival chances. That decision taken by the pilot, is it actually his decision taken on the spot, or is it a pre-written script, pre-decided that fog will happen and pilot will taken this so n so decision. That is the question here.
We are talking about the human's actions here, not the situations he faces. I hope it is clear.

And there is nothing like 'Limited Freedom of will' Either there is free will or no free will. Restricted free will means no free will.

[freemind]

well said E-sensation, I have another example to add:

A man who lost his hand, and a machine type of hand is added to him which works through electricity or battrey, when this hand does bad deeds for example, the electricity or the battrey doesnt gets blaimed, the electricity or the battrey just supported the hand with power, but not forcing it to do some kind of action.

Yes Aba Thar, I agree, blaming electricity for the supported hand's bad deeds is like blaming food if human does something wrong.
Just twisting your example, if the programmer who programmed the robotic hand, has made a mistake (or purposely) by wrongly programming the robotic hand. And the if the man (using the hand) ends up killing some1 (even though that was not his intention, but bcoz robotic hand was faulty), who's to blame, the man or the programmer ?

[Aba_Thar]

Yes Aba Thar, I agree, blaming electricity for the supported hand's bad deeds is like blaming food if human does something wrong.
Just twisting your example, if the programmer who programmed the robotic hand, has made a mistake (or purposely) by wrongly programming the robotic hand. And the if the man (using the hand) ends up killing some1 (even though that was not his intention, but bcoz robotic hand was faulty), who's to blame, the man or the programmer ?

But your example doesnt gets implemented here, because this example puts God Wal 3iyath Billah as he was the one forced our action which is logically un acceptable, whereas the example I provided says that the battrey or electricity just gives you power, and its you who decide which action to be taken.

Actually I think this thread would take us more into discussing Qadar and Qadha2.

[freemind]

But your example doesnt gets implemented here, because this example puts God Wal 3iyath Billah as he was the one forced our action which is logically un acceptable, whereas the example I provided says that the battrey or electricity just gives you power, and its you who decide which action to be taken.

Actually I think this thread would take us more into discussing Qadar and Qadha2.

No Aba Thar, in my example i compare God to the programmer because its God who has designed us and created us, similar to the programmer who has created and designed the robotic hand.
The battery or electricity is just the source that keeps it running. Its like how we take in food, which gives us energy to keep our bodies going.

If you read the post in the light of above comparisons I think it makes sense.


Yes Aba Thar, I agree, blaming electricity for the supported hand's bad deeds is like blaming food if human does something wrong.
Just twisting your example, if the programmer who programmed the robotic hand, has made a mistake (or purposely) by wrongly programming the robotic hand. And the if the man (using the hand) ends up killing some1 (even though that was not his intention, but bcoz robotic hand was faulty), who's to blame, the man or the programmer ?

[Booth]

I agree, we know Spain is playing Portugal, but we don't know who will win. But God knows. Infact he knows that Villa, Fabregas and Ronaldo will score in the match (assuming) and at what minute. But then dosen't this become like a giant script, which is just being enacted by us. There is no choice, when the result is pre-decided.

God knows what we are going to eat at what time, what good we are going to do, what bad we are going to do.
Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that. How does that make sense ?

There is a choice as long as you do not know what the pre-decided action is.

As long as God's knowledge doesn't affect our mind's and heart's actions, there is free will and choices. God knows I'm writing this post, and what I'll write on it but that doesn't change me from writing what I feel I should write.

And Villa SCORED! :color:

[freemind]

There is a choice as long as you do not know what the pre-decided action is.

No buthy, thats wrong. If anything is pre-decided, then there is no choice. Since you do not know what is going to happen, you feel you made the choice. But if it was predecided Villa was going to score, he would anywyas.
You have a choice, if you have the power to change what is pre-decided.


And Villa SCORED! :color:Villa is the man :D Spain all the way !! :D

[Booth]

No buthy, thats wrong. If anything is pre-decided, then there is no choice. Since you do not know what is going to happen, you feel you made the choice. But if it was predecided Villa was going to score, he would anywyas.
You have a choice, if you have the power to change what is pre-decided.
Yes there is, you're the one to make the choice, while God withholds the knowledge of that choice and the consequences of it. Villa doesn't know he was going to score, no one but God knows that... Which means down here nothing made any effect on his choices, it is Villa's choice to do this and that... God knows it, but it doesn't have any affect on it.

You have a bowl of chicken soup and another of corn soup.. You have the choice to choose one of them, your free to choose any! It was your personal decision to check X soup using you own mind and consciousness; yet God know us better (He created us) so he knew what our choice was going to be.

Allah won't choose our choices for us, he just knows what choice we will make. So I'll rephrase it, it's not Pre-Decides<---

It's Pre-written. Pre-Known... Pre-whatever... The Decision and choice is in our hands.



Villa is the man :D Spain all the way !! :D

;)

What's the point of life, humanity, judgment and sins if it's not in our hands...

[freemind]

Yes there is, you're the one to make the choice, while God withholds the knowledge of that choice and the consequences of it. Villa doesn't know he was going to score, no one but God knows that... Which means down here nothing made any effect on his choices, it is Villa's choice to do this and that... God knows it, but it doesn't have any affect on it.

You have a bowl of chicken soup and another of corn soup.. You have the choice to choose one of them, your free to choose any! It was your personal decision to check X soup using you own mind and consciousness; yet God know us better (He created us) so he knew what our choice was going to be.

Allah won't choose our choices for us, he just knows what choice we will make. So I'll rephrase it, it's not Pre-Decides<---

It's Pre-written. Pre-Known... Pre-whatever... The Decision and choice is in our hands.

Maybe you are right, God knows everything, what choices we are going to make, but since we don't know it, it dosen't affect our choice.

I have another question though, I asked this b4 in this thread, I guess you might be able to answer. Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. He knows the positives and negatives we are going to spread. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that.


What's the point of life, humanity, judgment and sins if it's not in our hands...
I say what is the point of judgement and sins, if Allah already knows everything before we are born.

[Aba_Thar]

No Aba Thar, in my example i compare God to the programmer because its God who has designed us and created us, similar to the programmer who has created and designed the robotic hand.
The battery or electricity is just the source that keeps it running. Its like how we take in food, which gives us energy to keep our bodies going.

If you read the post in the light of above comparisons I think it makes sense.

I think we cannot agree as everyone wants to stick to his example, but the example you provided says that the programmer makes mistake (even though I dont agree that life is programmed or a script which we r forced to follow, but even ur example again puts God in a bad image, as God never makes mistake in the first place, 2nd thing is that its not a script that u should follow, its God knowing whats our choice, which suits his completeness). The electricity example is what matches our believe because God gave us power of choice, like how the electricity gave the robotic hand the power to do the actions and be responsible for its action, so if the hand does a mistake its considered the person's mistake and not the electricity, but if we put it ur way of programming, that is just a totally different example, which we dont believe in, and as a conclusion it wouldnt make sense that a programmed person gets judged and that is far away from God's fairness.

[Booth]

Maybe you are right, God knows everything, what choices we are going to make, but since we don't know it, it dosen't affect our choice.
Exactly.



*Let me turn this crappy rap song first*



I have another question though, I asked this b4 in this thread, I guess you might be able to answer. [B]Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. He knows the positives and negatives we are going to spread. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that.

First of all, that is a very good question. You think too much, I did that and then decided to stop. :P

You see, if you believe in free will, freemind. You should have no problem knowing that our decisions in life must be judged by something higher, something so far away from what a human mind can reach.

Here's what happens:
- God creates us, he knows us more than we know ourselves.
- We do good things and bad things, things that we did by our choice.
- Since our actions were made by our choice -Even if God knows them- we got our chance in life, we did what we did.
- We are then judged by the actions and choices we have done.



I say what is the point of judgement and sins, if Allah already knows everything before we are born.
We get a chance, and then a choice, and then we're judged based on our choices.

[Aba_Thar]

I have another question though, I asked this b4 in this thread, I guess you might be able to answer. Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. He knows the positives and negatives we are going to spread. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that.

because not just me but everyone wants to witness why did I deserve heaven 'INSHALLAH', a person entering hell would say I object i want to witness my actions and choices. (thats a logical answer, not through aya or hadith). As what buthy_13 said whats better than having a chance to be judged based on your actions and not on God's knowledge only, that shows how mercy God is and we thank God for it.

[Booth]

If there was no judgment there would be no life. No one would care what deeds they make, no hope, nothing.

[Neena]

WILL’ is “the mental power that a person decides or visualize himself as deciding upon and initiating his actions”[1]. When we ask the question, “Do we have free WILL?”, the answer depends very much upon what we mean by “free” in this context. If we ask, ‘Is our WILL free from compulsion ( Pressure)?’, the answer is ‘YES’ but if we ask, ‘Is our WILL free from causation ?’, the answer is ‘NO’.

“A man is free from compulsion when he is not restrained by forces or persons outside of himself. He is free when he can follow his own desires, his own WILL, regardless of how that WILL may itself have come to be what it is.

According to the Quran, man is (born) free to aim at definite ends, free to choose between alternatives, free to choose good from evil and free to act in accordance with his WILL.

The Quran says, “Do whatever you will”[ Fussilat3]; “there is absolutely no compulsion in the Deen”[Bakara4]; “the Truth [has come] from your Sustainer: let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it.”[Al Kehf5]; “Verily, We have shown him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will)”[ Mursalat 6]


Another verse talks about the samething! :

"And do not follow (blindly) any information of which you have no (direct) knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception, you must verify it for yourself. (In the Court of your Lord,) you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning."[17:36]

وَلَا تَقۡفُ مَا لَيۡسَ لَكَ بِهِۦ عِلۡمٌ*ۚ إِنَّ ٱلسَّمۡعَ وَٱلۡبَصَرَ وَٱلۡفُؤَادَ كُلُّ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ كَانَ عَنۡهُ مَسۡـُٔولاً۬
Al Isra ( 36 )


As you see, God has created us, given us the brain, and tauhgt us right from wrong, and its only up to us to choose, if we want to do the right thing, or the bad!

[Neena]

If there was no judgment there would be no life. No one would care what deeds they make, no hope, nothing.

True: and that is why Allah said in the below verses:

Allah says in the Quran that if human beings had not been endowed with freedom of choice, all those who dwell on earth would have been made to believe (in that which Allah asks them to believe).

But this was not Allah’s way. He says, "And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?" (Yunes 99).

(signifying that people are under no compulsion by the Almighty to believe or disbelieve and that they should not be compelled in this regard by other people.)

“None can attain faith except in accordance with Allah’s law”, Allah Says in the quran: " It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allah. He hath set uncleanness upon those who have no sense." [ Yunes 100].

People believe or disbelieve according to Allah’s law of universal causation. Human WILL is absolutely free from compulsion but not free from causation.

وَلَوۡ شَآءَ رَبُّكَ لَأَمَنَ مَن فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ ڪُلُّهُمۡ جَمِيعًا*ۚ أَفَأَنتَ تُكۡرِهُ ٱلنَّاسَ حَتَّىٰ يَكُونُواْ مُؤۡمِنِينَ (٩٩) وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفۡسٍ أَن تُؤۡمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذۡنِ ٱللَّهِ*ۚ وَيَجۡعَلُ ٱلرِّجۡسَ عَلَى ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يَعۡقِلُونَ (١٠٠) Yunes

[E-Sensation]

Before we are born, God knows the good deeds and the sins we are going to commit. He knows the positives and negatives we are going to spread. Then why sent us on earth, to do what He already knows and then decide Heaven/Hell for us, based on that.

If you don't mind me answering you with another question..

Can I say that Allah wrote for me to go steal or go kill someone so I must go and do it?

Of course no I can't ..because I don't know what is written for me only Him knows. This is why I will take responsibility for my deeds. Allah brought us on earth to test us if we are going to follow His rules or not and accordingly we will be judged.

[Geya]

there is many signs of Judgment day!!! many many signs, we liv life and wait

[amo_l_oman]

If Allah already knows who will listen to Him and who wont, who will be faithful and who wont, they why go through the entire process of sending them to earth, then they disbelieve, and then they are sent to hell.
Just send them directly to hell.

He doesn't enjoy to send people to hell