The 12 Imams and ahl albait

[El Rey]

El Rey believes that the 2 things the Prophet PBUH left was the Quran and the Sunna, I believe no thats not the strong narration, the strong narration is the Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S. the house members or holds. I believe in 12 Imams after the Prophet SAAWW and the Imams should be appointed by God, the Prophet SAAWW delivers this Information, and the Imams should be on Earth till before End of the World

Please share with us why do you think that ahl albait is stronger than the known sunna ( ahadeeth ) and give us a brief direct explanation about those 12 Imams and how are they chosen by Allah.

[Jeff]

I am always curious...how does the concept of a religious guide and ruler guided by God (the Imam) fit into the concept of Prophethood?

A divine Imam sounds a LOT like a prophet...

How is it distinct?

[El Rey]

I am always curious...how does the concept of a religious guide and ruler guided by God (the Imam) fit into the concept of Prophethood?

A divine Imam sounds a LOT like a prophet...

How is it distinct?
Yah like the pope who's chosen by the spirit ;)

[freemind]

El Rey, I had a gr8 link for dis. Exactly how the sects and divisions happnd in Islam and what were the cause of the differences.
Will find n share

[El Rey]

Thanks for that but I already know the history of sects. I just wanted to discuss the 12 imams and ahl albait semi-prophethood that Abu Thar brought up.

[Aba_Thar]

salam all, i'll just choose to reply and focus on one party, cuz to be honest am not used to discuss with muslim, christian and an athiest at the same time, i will choose brother el rey, el rey i want only 1 narration bout sunnati that is considerd sahih and not weak or missing people in the root or sanad or mawdhu3 i want only sahih, and i will get my evidences once i am back, as am using a mobile right now.

[El Rey]

Am sure you have your evidence Aba Thar as others have and you'll say that it's kitab allah and 3atrati ( Ahl albait ) while the other sects will say sunnati ( My sunnah ). My question is what makes you say that ahl albait are better than other muslims in narrating the ahadeeth. Why no one of ahl albait was chosen after our proophet's :PBUH: death to be the Khalifa and what do you mean that the 12 imams are chosen by Allah and how is that?

And this is not a fight Aba Thar to focus on one party. It's an open discussion.

[Aba_Thar]

Am sure you have your evidence Aba Thar as others have and you'll say that it's kitab allah and 3atrati ( Ahl albait ) while the other sects will say sunnati ( My sunnah ). My question is what makes you say that ahl albait are better than other muslims in narrating the ahadeeth. Why no one of ahl albait was chosen after our proophet's :PBUH: death to be the Khalifa and what do you mean that the 12 imams are chosen by Allah and how is that?

And this is not a fight Aba Thar to focus on one party. It's an open discussion.

Well I'm claiming that the narration of the Quran and the Sunna doesnt have 1 Sahih Hadith in the Sunni books, all I have found was Weak, or Mawdhu3, or Mursal ya3nni not a full root. On the other hand I have found that Hadith that says hold into the Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S. in the Sunni books is considered a Mutwatir Hadith (which is stronger than Sahih or Right root) which means it has been approved by big Number of people, I have with me around 260 sources of this Hadith The Quran and AhlulBayt A.S.

Some of the strong Sources:
- Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of Ali in my copy Hadith No. 4425

- Al Hakim Al Naysaburi in his Book Al Mustadrak (Al Hakim collects hadiths based on what Bukhari and Muslim agree in their rules) Chapter of knowing the companions, Virues of Ali A.S., hadith No. 4576, 4577, same chapter but in Virtues of the family of the Prophet SAAWW Hadith No. 4711, same Chapter but in mentioned Zayd bin Al Arqam haidth No. 6272

- Ahmed Bin Hanbal in Misnad Abu Sa3eed Al Khudri, Hadith No. 10681, and I got other 12 Narrations from Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal

- I got also in Sahih Tirmithi, Sahih Al Nisa2i, Al Albani Book, Al Nawawi, Ibn Kuthair, total of 39 Scholars and number of 260 Hadiths.

The question is why is Hadith of the Quran and Sunnati is mentioned publicly more than The Quran and Ahlul Bayt A.S. even though there is no compare on which one has a higher value in correction, one is Mutawatir and the other is not even Sahih.

Fee Aman Allah, will get back soon regarding the other mentioned issues, I'd like to take my time in each point, cuz each point actually has alot to be said.

[Aba_Thar]

Regarding wether the Prophet mentioned there'll be 12 Imams or not, these narrations are from strong books, such as: Sahih Al Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmed Bin Hanbal, Sahih Al Tirmithi, Sunan Ibn Abi Dawood, Al Hakim in his Mustadrak Book (and I mentioned above Al Mustadrak has hadiths based on Al Bukhari and Muslim Rules), Al Thahabi in his book Siyar A3lam Al Nubala2, Ibn Hajar Al Saqalani in 3 different books, I got another 18 scholars, the total narrations that i got only is around 209 narrations that says there will be 12 Imams or leaders or Caliphs. I have never seen any sect agreeing on 12 since 1000 years till today except the Ja'fari Ithna'ashari only, all the Jafari Ithna'ashri agree on the same 12 Imams.

These are some of the hadiths:

Sahih Bukhari (http://www.englishsabla.com/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari) (1 out of 2 narrations):
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."[1] (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_note-0)

Sahih Muslim (http://www.englishsabla.com/wiki/Sahih_Muslim) (1 out of 6 narrations):
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."[2] (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_note-1)

Sunan Abu Dawood (http://www.englishsabla.com/wiki/Sunan_Abu_Dawood) (1 out of 2 narrations):
The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."[3] (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_note-2)

Sunan al-Tirmidhi (http://www.englishsabla.com/wiki/Sunan_al-Tirmidhi) (1 out of 1):
The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."[4] (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_note-3)

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal (http://www.englishsabla.com/wiki/Musnad_Ahmad_ibn_Hanbal) (1 out of 36)
Masrooq relates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel"" [5] (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_note-4)




in some narrations it says 12 like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Moosa A.S.



there is I have found which says 12 like the number of companions (7awary or hawary) Jesus A.S.
^ (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_ref-0) Sahih Bukhari : Vol. 9 Book 89 Hadith 329
^ (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_ref-1) Sahih Muslim : Book 020 : Number 4477, 4478, 4480, 4481, 4482, 4483
^ (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_ref-2) Sunan Ibn Abi Dawood : Book 36 : Number 4266
^ (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_ref-3) Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic) Chapter of Fitan,
2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)
^ (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/#cite_ref-4) Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 1, pg 398
Thats about the Number of Imams or Caliphs or Ameers after the Prophet SAAWW.

[El Rey]

I won't discuss the narration roots with you now. I may later if I saw it necessary but I want just to ask some questions regarding this:

About Ahla albait being stronger than the sunna. Can you please explain this further? You yourself are bringing the hadeeths ( Sunna ) as resources that ahl albait are stronger than the sunnah, don't you see it ironic?! Should we throw the sunna away and follow ahl albait? Where do ahl albait get their teachings from?

Could you explain more about ahl albait and how many are they and how are they recognized these days and are the Imams also considered ahl albait cos quraish doesn't necessarily means our prophet :PBUH: family.

Regarding the Imams. I won't go to the hadeeths as well but I want you to tell us about how is it? How do you know this is an Imam? Who assign him? And from our prophet :PBUH: death till now? How many Imams have we got? What's the period between every Imam and what's their description?

If as you say they are going to be from quraish, does this mean they would be Saudis?

[Aba_Thar]

My question is what makes you say that ahl albait are better than other muslims in narrating the ahadeeth.

Ibn Hajar in his book Al Sawa'ik Al Muhrika or Al 9awa3iq Al Mu7riqa Page 89, volume 11 narrates from Al Tabarani the same hadith that i mentioned al Al Thaqalayn The Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S., he says that the Prophet said:
" إني تارك فيكم ما إن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا : كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي ، فلا تقدموهم فتهلكوا ، ولا تقصروا عنهم فتهلكوا ، ولا تعلموهم فإنهم أعلم منكم "

The Red Highlighted font says : Do not pass them or you'll be perished, and do not be shortened towards them or you'll be perished, and dont try to teach them, they know more than you do"

[El Rey]

Regarding the red lines there is a stronger source that contradicts with it. It's the holy quran and you know the story of prophet Moses PBUH and the good man whom Allah gave knowledge. He taught Moses PBUH some lessons and he was just a man. A man teaching a prophet a lesson. So saying that don't teach them, they're more knowledgable than you contradicts with many things in Islam which is Knowledge about Islam is not just restricted to some specific people.

Anyways, you can go on to the other questions cos those which interest me more.

[Aba_Thar]

I won't discuss the narration roots with you now. I may later if I saw it necessary but I want just to ask some questions regarding this:

About Ahla albait being stronger than the sunna. Can you please explain this further? You yourself are bringing the hadeeths ( Sunna ) as resources that ahl albait are stronger than the sunnah, don't you see it ironic?! Should we throw the sunna away and follow ahl albait? Where do ahl albait get their teachings from?

Could you explain more about ahl albait and how many are they and how are they recognized these days and are the Imams also considered ahl albait cos quraish doesn't necessarily means our prophet :PBUH: family.

Regarding the Imams. I won't go to the hadeeths as well but I want you to tell us about how is it? How do you know this is an Imam? Who assign him? And from our prophet :PBUH: death till now? How many Imams have we got? What's the period between every Imam and what's their description?

If as you say they are going to be from quraish, does this mean they would be Saudis?


I'm bringing hadiths from ur sources, because it wont make sense to anyone if I bring up a hadith from my source and make u believe in it. So now we are settled that this the 2 hadiths I have mentioned is Mutawatir.

No you shouldn't throw the Sunna away, as all Muslims agree the Sunna (i.e. the hadiths) has right and has wrong (ex: some people who fear God narrated false hadith, or some people by mistake narrated wrong hadith) so in Sunna (Hadiths) again u go back to AhlulBayt A.S., and also in Tafseer Al Quran again holding into Ahlulbayt A.S. according to the Mutawatir Hadith Al Thaqalayn, no one can ever make hadith al Thaqalayn The Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S. false by root and also no one could claim that haidth the Quran and Sunnati has 1 Sahih Root, The Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S. hadith is Mutawatir, and so with the narration of 12 Imams. I want to know which other sect agreed all of them on 12 Caliphs or Imams? and who is holding into Ahlulbayt A.S. in terms of Fiqh, Aqeeda.. etc.?

bout Quraysh not necessary Prophet's SAAWW family, then who are the 12 Qurayshi's? some sect should agree on the 12.

bout who's the Imam after, the Prophet appointed and named them in the shia sources a famous hadith called Hadith Al Law7 Al Akhdhar The Green Board, and also the Imam appoints and tells the people the Imam after him. Starting from Imam Ali Bin Abi Talib A.S. ending by the 12th Imam Al Imam Al Mahdi AATF.

[Aba_Thar]

Regarding the red lines there is a stronger source that contradicts with it. It's the holy quran and you know the story of prophet Moses PBUH and the good man whom Allah gave knowledge. He taught Moses PBUH some lessons and he was just a man. A man teaching a prophet a lesson. So saying that don't teach them, they're more knowledgable than you contradicts with many things in Islam which is Knowledge about Islam is not just restricted to some specific people.

Anyways, you can go on to the other questions cos those which interest me more.

The man who taught Moses A.S. is called Al Khidr A.S. who is also still alive till today :)

[Aba_Thar]

Regarding the red lines there is a stronger source that contradicts with it. It's the holy quran and you know the story of prophet Moses PBUH and the good man whom Allah gave knowledge. He taught Moses PBUH some lessons and he was just a man. A man teaching a prophet a lesson. So saying that don't teach them, they're more knowledgable than you contradicts with many things in Islam which is Knowledge about Islam is not just restricted to some specific people.

Anyways, you can go on to the other questions cos those which interest me more.

It cannot be weak because its hadith al Thaqalayn, and I can mentioned other hadiths that can support the red line I mentioned, but I can go back to this later. The other thing that man u mentioned was sent by God, but there was no man sent by God to teach Ahlulbayt A.S. except Prophet Mohamad SAAWW.

[Aba_Thar]

The Safe Ship Narration - Hadith Al Safina by more than 10 Scholars and more than 57 sources supports the red font mentioned in Hadith Al thaqalayn by Ibn Hajar and Al Tabarani above.

The Narration:

My Ahlul-Bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked in it was SAVED, and whoever turned away from it was PERISHED.

مثل أهل بيتي مثل سفينة نوح من ركبها نجا ومن تخلف عنها هلك.

some of this hadith can be found in:

- Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Virtues of Companions, Virtues of Al Hassan A.S. and Al Hussain A.S., hadith No. 1360

- Ibn Hajar, Al Matalib Al Ulya, Book of Al Manaqib, Section of Ahlulbayt A.S. Virtues, Hadiths no. 4074, 4075

- 2 hadiths in Mustadrak Al Hakim, Book of Tafseer the tafseer of Surat Hood Hadith No. 3312, and Book of knowing Companions the Book of Virtues of the Family Of the Prophet SAAWW Hadith No. 4720.. Al Hakim Al Naysaburi comments on this hadith saying Sahih on Muslim Rules.

All those mentioned sources are narrated through Aba Thar Al Ghifari R.A.

I got more of this hadith, but I thought mentioning four strong sources with Correction or Tashih is enough.

Fee Aman Allah.

[Dark Project]

I am dying to elaborate but with respect of the author request that he only wants to address El Ray :) I am keeping my eyes wide open for a chance to participate ..

Aba Thar F.Y.I I am a muslim who do not believe in any sect ;)

[Aba_Thar]

I am dying to elaborate but with respect of the author request that he only wants to address El Ray :) I am keeping my eyes wide open for a chance to participate ..

Aba Thar F.Y.I I am a muslim who do not believe in any sect ;)

It's good to read different sects beleives I guess. :)

[Aba_Thar]

Here are some narrations by sunni scholars Al Hamweeni or Al 7amweeni Al Shafi'i or Shafi3i who is the teacher of the famous sunni scholar Al Thahabi, and also by al Al Qanduzy Al Hanafy or 7anafy.

I'll start with Al Qundoozi Al Hanafy, from his book Yanabi3 Al Mawwada, Section 94, in Manaqib, I'll translate it to eng, the Hadith is narrated through the Prophet's Companion called Jabir bin Abdullah Al Ansari R.A., Prophet Mohamad SAAWW: "O Jabir, My Guardians and Imams of Muslims after me first of them is Ali, then Al Hassan, then Al Hussain, then Ali bin Al Hussain, then Mohamad bin Ali known as Al Baqir, O Jabir you will see him, if you see him deliver him my Salam, the Jafar bin Mohamad, then Moosa bin Jafar, then Ali bin Moosa, then Mohamad bin Ali, then Ali bin Mohamad, then Al Hassan bin Ali, then Al Qa'im, his name matches my name and his nickname matches my nickname, Mohamad bin Al Hassan bin Ali, that who will God open on his hand the East and the West of the Earth, that who will dissapear from his Awliya2, and no one will be stuck to his Imamat, except those who Allah tested their heart faith"

P.S. this is my translation, the real narrations are here all of them r almost same:



1 - عن ينابيع المودة للقندوزي الحنفي ( الباب 94 ) . عن المناقب بسنده إلى جابر بن عبد الله قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : ( يا جابر إن أوصيائي وأئمة المسلمين من بعدي أولهم علي ، ثم الحسن ، ثم الحسين ثم علي بن الحسين ، ثم محمد بن علي المعروف بالباقر ستدركه يا جابر فإذا لقيته فاقرأه مني السلام ، ثم جعفر بن محمد ، ثم موسى بن جعفر ، ثم علي بن موسى ، ثم محمد بن علي ، ثم علي بن محمد ، ثم الحسن بن علي ، ثم القائم اسمه اسمي وكنيته كنيتي محمد بن الحسن بن علي ذاك الذي يفتح الله تبارك وتعالى على يديه مشارق الأرض ومغاربها ، ذاك الذي يغيب عن أوليائه غيبة لا يثبت على القول بإمامته إلا من امتحن الله قلبه للإيمان ) .



and also in Fara2id Al 9imtain or Simtain for Al Hamwini Al Shafi'i
2 - عن فرائد السمطين للحمويني الشافعي : بالإسناد إلى ابن عباس في حديث عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله جاء فيه : ( إن وصيي علي بن أبي طالب وبعده سبطاي الحسن والحسين تتلوه تسعة أئمة من صلب الحسين ) ثم قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( فإذا مضى الحسين فابنه علي ، فإذا مضى علي فابنه محمد ، فإذا مضى محمد فابنه جعفر ، فإذا مضى جعفر فابنه موسى ، فإذا مضى موسى فابنه علي ، فإذا مضى علي فابنه محمد ، فإذا مضى محمد فابنه علي ، فإذا مضى علي فابنه الحسن ، فإذا مضى الحسن فابنه الحجة محمد المهدي فهؤلاء اثنا عشر ) .


again almost same narration from Al Qundoozi Al Hanafi, Section 76 in Manaqib narrated also through Jabir bin Abdullah Al Ansari R.A.
3 - عن ينابيع المودة للقندوزي الحنفي : ( الباب 76 ) . عن المناقب بسنده عن جابر الأنصاري قال : دخل جندب بن جنادة على النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسأله عن مسائل ثم قال : أخبرني يا رسول الله عن أوصيائك بعدك لا لأتمسك بهم . قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( أوصيائي الاثنا عشر ) . قال : ( يا رسول الله سمهم لي ) . قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( أولهم سيد الأوصياء أبو الأئمة علي ، ثم إبناه الحسن والحسين فاستمسك بهم ولا يغرنك جهل الجاهلين ) . قال ابن جنادة : فمن بعد الحسين ؟ قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( إذا انقضت مدة الحسين فالإمام ابنه علي ويلقب بزين العابدين . فبعده ابنه محمد يلقب بالباقر . فبعده ابنه جعفر يدعى بالصادق . فبعده ابنه موسى يدعى بالكاظم . فبعده ابنه علي يدعى بالرضا . فبعده ابنه محمد يدعى بالتقي والزكي . فبعده ابنه علي يدعى بالنقي والهادي . فبعده ابنه الحسن يدعى بالعسكري . فبعده ابنه محمد يدعى بالمهدي والقائم والحجة ) .


Kifayat Al Athar for Abu Qasim Al Khazar
4 - عن كفاية الأثر لأبي القاسم الخزار :
بالإسناد عن الحسين بن علي عليه السلام قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لعلي عليه السلام : ( أنا أولى بالمؤمنين منهم بأنفسهم . ثم أنت يا علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعدك الحسن أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده الحسين أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده محمد أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده جعفر أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده موسى أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم ثم بعده علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده محمد أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده الحسن أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده الحجة بن الحسن أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . أئمة أبرار هم مع الحق والحق معهم .

[Dark Project]

Just a question here :) When the prophet was given a choice to be Prophet and a King Or Prophet worshiper he chose Prophet worshiper ! Therefore the way I read that the 12 Imams have to take over from the prophet is quite not understandable since like that it would be semi-Monarchy .
Secondly , Did he announce it officially that only his direct family should be Imams ?
Third ,why did he insist on AbuBakar to lead the paryers and he came out and prayed behind him ?
What we learned from different school of thoughts that the Prophet said " I am the city of knoweledge and Ali is the door ". It does not mean he and his children should take over till dooms day ..
Kindly explain ..

[Aba_Thar]

Just a question here :) When the prophet was given a choice to be Prophet and a King Or Prophet worshiper he chose Prophet worshiper ! Therefore the way I read that the 12 Imams have to take over from the prophet is quite not understandable since like that it would be semi-Monarchy .
Secondly , Did he announce it officially that only his direct family should be Imams ?
Third ,why did he insist on AbuBakar to lead the paryers and he came out and prayed behind him ?
What we learned from different school of thoughts that the Prophet said " I am the city of knoweledge and Ali is the door ". It does not mean he and his children should take over till dooms day ..
Kindly explain ..

This is the right narration from Sahih Bukhari
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=624&doc=0

in the end of the narration it clearly states that The Prophet SAAWW was the Imam in the prayer. More to add the First Caliph didnt narrate this narration in Saqifa Bani Sa3ida to prove that he has all the rights and full authority to be the Caliph after the Prophet SAAWW passed. Lets assume all what u have mentioned above is right. This narration doesnt states anything direct, whereas the narrations I have stated clearly says Hold into the Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S., Ahlulbayt are the Safe Ship, After me there'll be 12 Imams, and I got narration from Al Thahabi's teacher and Al Qunduzi and Kifayat Al Athar stating the names.

I'll add one more thing Hadith Al Ghadeer, I got 606 Sources of this hadith, and around 50 Scholars.

The Narration:

We were in the company of the Messenger of God, upon whom and whose household be blessing, on a journey when we stopped at Ghadir Khumm. He ordered the crier to call out: Assemble for prayer! So a spot under two trees was swept off for the Messenger of God, upon whom and whose household be blessing, where he performed the noon prayer. Thereupon, he took ‘Ali (may God be pleased with him) by hand and said: Don't you know that I have a great claim upon the believers than their own souls? To which they answered: Certainly yes! He said: Don't you know that I have a greater claim upon each believer than his own soul? To which they replied: Certainly yes! So he took ‘Ali by hand and said: For whoever has me as his master and guardian (mawla), ‘Ali is his master and guardian. O God! Befriend whoever befriends him and show enmity to whomever shows enmity to him! Thereafter, ‘Umar encountered him and said to him: May it be productive of enjoyment to you, O Ibn Abi Talib! You have entered upon the time of morning and evening as a master and guardian over every faithful man and woman

Some of the sources:
Sahih Al Bukhari 2 narrations, Al tarikh Al Kabeer, Part 1 & 4, pages no 375 and 193
38 narrations in Ahmed bin Hanbal, Al Tirmithi, Ibn Maja, Al Hakim, Al Nisa2i, Al haithami, Ibn Hajar etc (50 Scholars)

Fee Aman Allah

[Aba_Thar]

I'd like to add also that Al Hakim Al Hasakani in his book Shawahid Al Tanzeel, Al Siyooti, Ibn Asakir, Al Qundoozi, Al Bakri, Al Khawarizmi all of them say the following verse came after the Nabi said Hadith Al Ghadeer mentioned above ^:

اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي - [ المائدة : 3 ]

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. [Al Ma'ida 3]


The Narration same mentioned in the previous post, but adding the verse is added to it after the narration:

عن أبي سعيد الخدري : أن رسول الله (ص) إلى علي بغدير خم أمر بما كان تحت الشجرة أن يقم من الشوك وذلك يوم الخميس ثم دعا الناس إلى علي فأخذ بضبعه حتى نظر الناس إلى بياض إبطي رسول الله (ص) ثم لم ينصرف حتى نزلت : اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي ، فقال رسول الله (ص) : الله أكبر على إكمال الدين وإتمام النعمة ورضي الرب برسالتي وبالولاية لعلق من بعدي ، ثم قال : من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ، اللهم وال من والاه ، وعاد من عاداه ، وأنصر من نصره ، وأخذل من خذله

-Al Hakim Al Haskani in his book Shawahid Al Tanzil Part 1, Page 202 and 203 and 204 hadith 212 and 213
-Al Hakim Al Hasakani in his book Shawahid Al Tanzil Part 1, Page 207, 208, hadith 214 and 215
-Al Siyuti in his book Al Dur Al Manthur, Surat Al Ma'ida, Part 2, Page 298 (a different verse is mentioned but regarding the same hadith)
-Ibn Asakir in his book History of Damascus, Part 42, Page 232 and 33
-Al Qunduzi in his book Yanabi3 Al Mawwada, Part 1, Page 343, 346, and 359, and Part 2, page 249

Fee Aman Allah

[Aba_Thar]

Just a question here :) When the prophet was given a choice to be Prophet and a King Or Prophet worshiper he chose Prophet worshiper ! Therefore the way I read that the 12 Imams have to take over from the prophet is quite not understandable since like that it would be semi-Monarchy .
Secondly , Did he announce it officially that only his direct family should be Imams ?
Third ,why did he insist on AbuBakar to lead the paryers and he came out and prayed behind him ?
What we learned from different school of thoughts that the Prophet said " I am the city of knoweledge and Ali is the door ". It does not mean he and his children should take over till dooms day ..
Kindly explain ..

But where are the 12 Imams thats ur sect have agreed on? the hadith I brought up that there will be 12 Imams is Mutawatir, it cannot be weaken. I have brought up the Imams names as well from Al Shafi3i and Al 7anafi and Ibn Al Athir in my previous post, and yes the Prophet SAAWW announced it officially many times, the post that I have mentioned was one of the last sayings, but I got another official announcements too.

[Aba_Thar]

Surat Al Ma'ida Verse 55:

Your real allies are GOD and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they bow down

سورة المائدة آية 55

إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة وهم راكعون


Alot of narrations and tafseer state that person who gave the Zakat while bowing down is Ali bin Abi Talib A.S., and to be honest some people said no this aya goes for all the Mu'minin, but i'll paste some narrations that says this verse is stating Ali Bin Abi Talib A.S.


عن إبن عباس قال : خرج رسول الله (ص) إلى المسجد والناس يصلون بين راكع وساجد وقائم وقاعد وإذا مسكين يسأل فدخل رسول الله (ص) ، فقال : أعطاك أحد شيئاًً ؟ ، قال : نعم ، قال : من ؟ ، قال ذلك الرجل القائم قال على أي حال أعطاكه ؟ ، قال : وهو راكع قال : وذلك علي بن أبي طالب قال : فكبر رسول الله (ص) عند ذلك وهو يقول : من يتول الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا فإن حزب الله هم الغالبون

The explaination of the narration:

Ibn Abbas Narrates: Prophet Mohamad PBUH went to the mosque, there were people praying some of them are on Ruku3 position (Bowing down), and some of them are on Sujood Position. There was a Poor man asking for help (i.e. asking for Sadaqa), The Prophet SAAWW entered the Mosque and asked the Poor man, did anyone give you anything? he said yes, the Prophet SAAWW asked: who?, the Poor man replied: That man who's standing, the Prophet SAAWW asked: on what situation or position? the Poor man: while he was in Ruku3 position (Bowing Down), said: and that it Ali Bin Abi Talib A.S., then Rasool Allah recited Takbeer (Allah Akbar) and recited this verse in Quran:
"Those who ally themselves with GOD and His messenger, and those who believed, belong in the party of GOD; absolutely, they are the victors" Al Ma'ida 56.


those narrations can be found (not all on the same style)
- Ibn Kathir in his book Al Bidaya Wal Nihaya, Part 7, Page 394
- Tafseer Ibn Kathir, Al Ma'ida 55, Part 2, Page 74
- Tafseer Al Tabari, Part 6, Page 389, Al Ma'ida 55
- Al Tabari, Tafseer Jami3 Al Bayan, Surat Al Ma'ida
- Tafseer Al Qurtubi, Surat Al Ma'ida verse 55
- Tafseer Al Siyuti, in his book Al Dur Al Manthur, Part 2, Page 293, and 294
- Al Tabarani in his Book Al Mu3jam Al Kabeer and Al Mu3jam Al Awsat.

Again am repeating some narrations says it's all Mu'minin, and some narrations says it's only Ali Bin Abi Talib A.S. which makes more sense to the verse and the narration.

[Aba_Thar]

Narration: narrated by Prophet Mohamad SAAWW:
What do you want from Ali? What do you want from Ali? What do you want from Ali? Ali is from me and I'm from him, and he is waly (guardian) of every Mu'min after Me


((( ما تريدون من علي - ثلاثا - إن عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي ))).

Sahih Ibn Haban 15/373/6929 (Shu'aib Al Arna'ut comments Strong Hadith)

Al Hakim in his Book Al Mustadrak 3/143/4652 (Hakim says Root or sanad is Sahih or Right, and same comments Al Thahabi Sahih)

Sahih Al Jami3 Al Sagheer Hadith No 5598, and Sahih Silsilat Al Ahadith al Sahiha 2223, Albani comments Sahih

Ibn Hajar in his Book Al Isaba 4/569

Al Tirmithi has a strong Sanad or Root through Imran bin Al Hu9ain 2 / 297.

Fee Aman Allah

[El Rey]

I appreciate your effort Aba Thar but you still didn't answer my questions. How do you define an Imam? In the mean time how many Imams already came and how many left? Is it the mahdi who is left? And how do you trace someone to the prophet :PBUH: origin? Can I name myself Al Mahdi then be the next Imam? You said those Imams are appointed by God, how is that? And where do they get their teachings from? Isn't it the koran and sunna? Do they have a special sunnah for them? Must they be Shites? Or they can be Sunnis or maybe Ibadhis? Am interested to know the answers for these questions.

[Aba_Thar]

I appreciate your effort Aba Thar but you still didn't answer my questions.
salam alaikum brother el rey, dear i dont think thats true, actually i have answered most of ur Q's if not all, and i will answer ur new Q's as well inshalah, and i have proven to u the prophet's choice of Imam Ali A.s. which is God's choice, but u just answer 1 Q, who r the 12 agreed imams in the sunni sect since the 12 imams narration is Mutawatir?
Posted via Mobile Device

[El Rey]

Yes you did to some and thanks alot for that. Regarding the Imams and to be honest I don't believe in the 12 Imams thingy be it said by sunnis, shites or Ibadhis.


and i have proven to u the prophet's choice of Imam Ali A.s. which is God's choice

That's never a proof dear Aba Thar. Our prophet :PBUH: said alot about his companions and this doesn't mean they're chosen by Allah. Anyways, am just following your answers now and start the discussion with you regarding each answer. Now some shattered answers to get more answers from you is a start to clear my curiousity.

Please go on.

[Dark Project]

Well there are hadith that you should pray behind righteous Imam are you telling me that all Shiat Imam are righteous ?
do you believe in Al Abbas Dynasty ?

[Anti_XXX]

Just a Q . .


Is it true that Imams are better than the rest of prophets?


p.s: Prophet Mohammed not included to prophets.

[Aba_Thar]

That's never a proof dear Aba Thar. Our prophet :PBUH: said alot about his companions and this doesn't mean they're chosen by Allah.

Thats surprising, When the Prophet SAAWW said: ain't I waly of every Mu'min more than their Waly on them selves? then everyone answered yes, then the Prophet SAAWW replies: who considers me his Mawla, Then Ali A.S. is his Mawla. This isnt just a Good saying, this is a condition, whoever considers the Prophet SAAWW his Mawla over himself being his self Mawla then Ali A.S. is his Mawla. Anywayz if you wont want to believe it, its up to u, the narration is Mutawatir btw and over 10,000 companians witnessed it after the last Haj of the Prophet SAAWW. Same bout 12 Imams Mutawatir hadith if u want to reject, its up to u cuz everyone will be responsible on the the evidences presented infront of him the day of judgement. and as a conclusion I understand that u cant define who r the twelve Imams mentioned on the Sahih Books.

[Aba_Thar]

In the mean time how many Imams already came and how many left? Is it the mahdi who is left?

The 12th is there and yes AL Imam Al Mahdi AATF.

the proof that there should be an Imam every zaman or time are many, I'll note one verse and one hadith I think its enough:

الاسراء (آية:71) (javascript:showAya(17,71)):يوم ندعو كل اناس بامامهم فمن اوتي كتابه بيمينه فاولئك يقرؤون كتابهم ولا يظلمون فتيلا (javascript:showAya(17,71))
the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly


قال الرسول صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم :" من مات وليس في عنقه بيعة مات ميتة الجاهلية " هذا الحديث الذي رواه مسلم

Prophet Mohamad SAAWW: whoever dies without a Bay'a on his neck, he die death of Jahiliya.. Narrated by Muslim

or this narration
من مات ولم يعرف إمام زمانه مات ميتة جاهلية

I have an Imam this day that I Believe in. Do u have an Imam in this current day? plz let me know.

[El Rey]

Who is your imam this day? And please answer the rest of my questions stated here:


I appreciate your effort Aba Thar but you still didn't answer my questions. How do you define an Imam? In the mean time how many Imams already came and how many left? Is it the mahdi who is left? And how do you trace someone to the prophet :PBUH: origin? Can I name myself Al Mahdi then be the next Imam? You said those Imams are appointed by God, how is that? And where do they get their teachings from? Isn't it the koran and sunna? Do they have a special sunnah for them? Must they be Shites? Or they can be Sunnis or maybe Ibadhis? Am interested to know the answers for these questions.

[LORDMUS]

Just a Q . .


Is it true that Imams are better than the rest of prophets?


p.s: Prophet Mohammed not included to prophets.

Yea Thats what I hear people talking whenever it2na ashria is mentioned if I am not mistaken.
On Imam mehdis coming I found a great source (sh3a): http://www.shiaweb.org/books/haqiqa/pa27.html
Btw. check out the conflict:
يعتقد معظم أهل السنة أن الإمام المهدي عليه السلام سيولد في آخر الزمان بينما يعتقد الشيعة بأنه ولد في عام 255 ه* لأبيه الإمام الحسن العسكري وهو حادي عشر أئمة أهل البيت ، ولكن الله تعالى غيبه عن العيون لحكمة رآها ، ولا يزال حيا وسيظهره في آخر الزمان

Quoted from the link ^ above.
P.S: I apologize by bumming in like this.

[IceTea]

I have an Imam this day that I Believe in. Do u have an Imam in this current day? plz let me know.

Our Imam is what the Prophet PBUH left us (as stated in the hadeeth), the holy Quran and his sunnah.

[BrAiKi]

One of the things that make me scratch my head:
- Al Hassan and Al Hussien (Peace be upon them) had many sons from different wives. Yet, the remaining 12 Imams are from Al Hussien's family tree, to be specific, from his Persian wife.

God must've loved the persian wife's sons to choose them as Imams.:os

[Aba_Thar]

Our Imam is what the Prophet PBUH left us (as stated in the hadeeth), the holy Quran and his sunnah.

The hadith u mentioned is considered weak or Mursal or Mawdhu3 and there isnt a single strong source, the strong one is Quran and 3itrati AhlaBayti, 2nd how can u make a bay3a for Quran and Sunna? 3rd check this verse and tel me can the waliy amr be a Quran or Sunna? if not so who is the one today?

(( يا أيها الذين ءامنوا أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الأمر منكم ))
Surat Al nisa2 59

[Aba_Thar]

One of the things that make me scratch my head:
- Al Hassan and Al Hussien (Peace be upon them) had many sons from different wives. Yet, the remaining 12 Imams are from Al Hussien's family tree, to be specific, from his Persian wife.

God must've loved the persians wife's sons to choose them as Imams.:os

Dear brAiKi, I can use ur same style of racism or teasing or making fun of type of posting or communication by saying (better learn ur communication style from El Rey, see how Muhathab mashallah he is):

- The Prophet SAAWW said Salman is from us Ahlulbayt A.S. and was a Persian, but the Prophet included him.

- The Prophet killed something called racism by saying no difference between an Arabian and A3jami except the Taqwa.

_ I can say that Mu'awya's mother is Hind who ate liver of Sayedna Hamza A.S.

_ I can say that ur Scholars such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmithi, Ibn Maja, Nisa2i, Sijistani are Persians, and that Shia Scholars such as Al Kulayni and Al Mufid are arabian.

I dont like this way of communication but its easy to use it though, but I prefer as a muslim to use a way of communication that keeps my relationship with sunni brothers good surrounded with love and standing with them as 1 body against our enemies.

whats wrong with Persians? any problems with that? any thing racist is there bout them? please let us know? Yes God Love Persians who intend to listen to him, and hate Arabs that don't listen to him,anything wrong with what am saying?

[Aba_Thar]

Yea Thats what I hear people talking whenever it2na ashria is mentioned if I am not mistaken.
On Imam mehdis coming I found a great source (sh3a): http://www.shiaweb.org/books/haqiqa/pa27.html
Btw. check out the conflict:
يعتقد معظم أهل السنة أن الإمام المهدي عليه السلام سيولد في آخر الزمان بينما يعتقد الشيعة بأنه ولد في عام 255 ه* لأبيه الإمام الحسن العسكري وهو حادي عشر أئمة أهل البيت ، ولكن الله تعالى غيبه عن العيون لحكمة رآها ، ولا يزال حيا وسيظهره في آخر الزمان

Quoted from the link ^ above.
P.S: I apologize by bumming in like this.


Thanks for posting the book, it'll be good if other members readit, there r useful information. the part that u mentioned of 11 instead of 12 clearly looks like a mistake in the printing or something, cuz the book name is 7aqiqat al ithna 3ashariya, ya3nni his book is titeled as 12.

and lets assume we got a narration of 13 Imams or a saying of a scholar for example, we dont say that our books are called Sahih, our narrations go under inspecting and stuff and our rules and conditions doesnt says that whatever scholar says this is Sahih khalas the whole sect are strict into this particular point, our rules and regulations differ. Our sect have Ijma3 on 12 Imams, and there are Mutawatir narrations that they're 12 such as the narration of the Green Board.

[Aba_Thar]

Who is your imam this day? And please answer the rest of my questions stated here:

My current Imam is Imam Al Mahdi AATF, who is urs?

3azizi El Rey Inshallah i'll answer ur Q's min 3eni whenever I get a chance, i'll answer 1 or 2 Q's from the questions that u have mentioned, and u also answer my question in return

[Aba_Thar]

The Imams get all their teachings and preperations from the Prophet SAAWW. The Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet and the Imams A.S. are considered one of the Ma9adir Tashri3 (sources of Ahkam).

[BrAiKi]

No need to get all emotional on me, I am half Persian myself.

now you can kick the racism out of the table and answer the following questions which tackle my main point:

Why was Salman al Farsi (a Persian) was included among ahl al beit?
Why all of those who have Persian origins (Ammar bin Yasir) are considered among the good guys?
Why did the Imama follow only Al hussien (Peace be upon him ) Persian wife's sons?
How could Kesra (the king of Persian emipre) predict that his grandsons will lead Islam one day, given the fact that al Hussien's wife is from Kesra's family.
Why Omar ibn al khattab & Khalid ibn al waleed are hated the most from the Shia? Given the fact that under Omar ibn Al Khattab's rule, the Persian Empire was shattered and the land of Persia was conquerred under leadership of Khalid ibn al waleed?

Does that have anything to do with the fact that Shiaism is developed in Iraq & Persia?
Maybe, maybe not.
Or maybe as I mentioned above, God might have favored the Persians.

[Aba_Thar]

The Imams get all their teachings and preperations from the Prophet SAAWW. The Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet and the Imams A.S. are considered one of the Ma9adir Tashri3 (sources of Ahkam).

The Imams get all their teachings and preperations from the Prophet SAAWW. i.e. Imam Ali A.S. get his teachings from the Prophet SAAWW, Al Hassan and Al Hussain A.S. from Imam Ali A.S., Al Imam Al Sajjad from Al Imam Al Hussain A.S. etc. The Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet and the Imams A.S. are considered one of the Ma9adir Tashri3 (sources of Ahkam).

[Aba_Thar]

No need to get all emotional on me, I am half Persian myself.

now you can kick the racism out of the table and answer the following questions which tackle my main point:

Why was Salman al Farsi (a Persian) was included among ahl al beit?
Why all of those who have Persian origins (Ammar bin Yasir) are considered among the good guys?
Why did the Imama follow only Al hussien (Peace be upon him ) Persian wife's sons?
How could Kesra (the king of Persian emipre) predict that his grandsons will lead Islam one day, given the fact that al Hussien's wife is from Kesra's family.
Why Omar ibn al khattab & Khalid ibn al waleed are hated the most from the Shia? Given the fact that under Omar ibn Al Khattab's rule, the Persian Empire was shattered and the land of Persia was conquerred under leadership of Khalid ibn al waleed?

Does that have anything to do with the fact that Shiaism is developed in Iraq & Persia?
Maybe, maybe not.
Or maybe as I mentioned above, God might have favored the Persians.

First of all its not bout emtional, its bout ethics and how do u communicate with the other party, so people in ur life or work or wherever dont have anything against u.

2nd Ur Q's doesnt makes sense, looks like u r really upset with Persians, yakhi ur questions are like:

Why Bukhari is persian?
Why Muslim is Persian?
Why Nisa2i is Persian?
Why Ibn Maja is Persian?
why Tirmithi is Persian?
Why Aba Thar is Arab?
Why Salman is not Arab?
Why Al Miqdad is Arab?
Why Huthayfa is Arab?
why Abu Al Aswad is Arab?
Why Al Kulayni is Arab?
Why did God choose Imam Al Ridha's mother to be Egyption?
Why did God Choose Imam Al Sadiq A.S. to be the teacher of the sunni sect Imams such as Al Malki and Al Hanafi?
and also ur asking Why did the Prophet say so and so about Salman? ur questioning the Prophet SAAWW Why? ur Questioning God Why?

Sorry am not interested to answer those type of un academic questions and aslan ur way of communication is not like a person who is interested to share and exchange information, so I am not interested to waste my time sorry.

[BrAiKi]

My questions are not like the ones you have posted.
First you say that I'm racist and then you choose to label them as un-academic and can't answer them.
It's your wish, after all. I've debated with such people before.

It is worth mentioning that none of Shia (even among my friends) can have an answer for that and chose to call it a 'coincidence'.

[Aba_Thar]

My questions are not like the ones you have posted.
First you say that I'm racist and then you choose to label them as un-academic and can't answer them.
It's your wish, after all. I've debated with such people before.

It is worth mentioning that none of Shia (even among my friends) can have an answer for that and chose to call it a 'coincidence'.


So What if some people are Persians or from Persian Mothers? So What? Jews also dont like that our Prophet SAAWW is an Arab, the basic reply is: So What if he is an Arab? Arab mothers only deserve great born sons only? man thats so racist.

yeah sub7an allah ur questions are very tough sara7a, its hard for me to discover why Salman Al Mohamadi was created by God as a Persian and not an Arab :( even though I believe that the Prophet SAAWW said no difference between and arab and an ajam except Taqwa, but I dont know why Salman was Persian :XD: maybe ur friends werent as much educated and genius as u Sub7an Allah or maybe they were Persians :mmhmm: I think I'll lose the debate if I say that Bukhari wasn't a Persian? or Muslim? or Tirmithi? or Nisa2i? or Ibn Maja?

again am saying am not interested to answer those type of nationalities questions, unless u got a prove that all Arabs are better than all nationalities without any exceptions, or else plz am not interested.

[BrAiKi]

Again I am not asking it the same way you're putting it.
Let me bring it down to your level of mentality since you choose to think that these questions do not make sense.

Ali ibn Abi Talib, the father of Al Hassan and Al Hussien from his wife Fatima, peace be upon them all, are the first three Imams according to your belief, Al hassan and al hussien had many wives and many sons, YET only ONE line was chosen for Imama to carry it over, and that was from Al Hussien's Persian wife, as predicted by Kesra, the fallen king of Persia.
Were they really 12 divine Imams back then? Or was history re-written to favor them?

All people are the same in eyes of God, agreed.
But not all are the same in eyes of whoever re-wrote the history to HATE and CURSE whoever broke the Persian empire's back bone and to almost worship whoever had Persian origins, with the exception of Ali, Al Hassan and Al Hussien, peace be upon them all.

[Aba_Thar]

Again I am not asking it the same way you're putting it.
Let me bring it down to your level of mentality since you choose to think that these questions do not make sense.

Ali ibn Abi Talib, the father of Al Hassan and Al Hussien from his wife Fatima, peace be upon them all, are the first three Imams according to your belief, Al hassan and al hussien had many wives and many sons, YET only ONE line was chosen for Imama to carry it over, and that was from Al Hussien's Persian wife, as predicted by Kesra, the fallen king of Persia.
Were they really 12 divine Imams back then? Or was history re-written to favor them?

All people are the same in eyes of God, agreed.
But not all are the same in eyes of whoever re-wrote the history to HATE and CURSE whoever broke the Persian empire's back bone and to almost worship whoever had Persian origins, with the exception of Ali, Al Hassan and Al Hussien, peace be upon them all.

See, the 12 Imams were mentioned during days of Prophet SAAWW as u can see in the past narrations.

Was Bukhari's and Muslim back bone effected cuz of what happened to Kisra? and were they worshipped cuz they had persian origins?

Btw Arabs without Prophet Mohamad SAAWW would have been nothing, dont forget days of Jahiliya before the Prophet how they were burrying their daughters alive, Thanks God Allah has sent us Prophet Mohamad SAAWW otherwise how would our believes look like?

and the people you're trying to criticise, the sons of Al Hussain A.S. from his persian Mu'Mina wife starting with his son Ali bin Al Hussain A.S., during days of Haj, the Caliph Hisham bin Abd Al Malik was trying to make Tawaf and people werent giving him space cuz it was crouded, once Imam Ali bin Al Hussain A.S. came everyone made space to him (no on thought oohh his mother is persian like how some people here do), and the Caliph said who is he (he knows who is he)? then a person named al Farazdaq was next to him said this peom (and this peom goes to u from Farazdaq)

هذا الذي تعرف البطحاء وطأته
والبيت يعرفه والحل والحرم

هذا بن خير عباد الله كُـلُّهمُ
هذا التقي النقي الطاهرُ العلم

هذا بن فاطمةٍ انْ كنت جاهله
بجده انبياء الله قد ختموا

وليس قولك : منْ هذا؟بضائره
العرب تعرف من انكرت والعجمُ

كلتا يديه غياثٌ عـمَّ نفعهما
يستوكفان ولا يعروهما عـَدمُ

سهل الخليقة ،لاتخشى بوادره
يزينه اثنان: حِسنُ الخلقِ والشيمُ

حـمّال اثقال اقوام ٍ اذا امتدحوا
حلو الشمائل ،تحلو عنده نعمُ

ما قال: لا قط ،ْ الا في تشهده
لولا التشهّد كانت لاؤه نـعم

This is a gift from Al Farazdaw to anyone who has this type of thinking lke urs.
وليس قولك : منْ هذا؟بضائره
العرب تعرف من انكرت والعجم

Imam Al Sadiq A.S. who is the grandson of Imam Ali bin Al Hussain A.S. was the teacher of Al Maliki and Al Hanafi, do u consider that as an insult because of the Persian stuff?

P.S. some Prophets werent Arab

[Anti_XXX]

Do I have to be ' SoSo, Laila, Shaima . . . etc' to get my questions answered?

[Aba_Thar]

Again I am not asking it the same way you're putting it.
Let me bring it down to your level of mentality since you choose to think that these questions do not make sense.

Ali ibn Abi Talib, the father of Al Hassan and Al Hussien from his wife Fatima, peace be upon them all, are the first three Imams according to your belief, Al hassan and al hussien had many wives and many sons, YET only ONE line was chosen for Imama to carry it over, and that was from Al Hussien's Persian wife, as predicted by Kesra, the fallen king of Persia.
Were they really 12 divine Imams back then? Or was history re-written to favor them?

All people are the same in eyes of God, agreed.
But not all are the same in eyes of whoever re-wrote the history to HATE and CURSE whoever broke the Persian empire's back bone and to almost worship whoever had Persian origins, with the exception of Ali, Al Hassan and Al Hussien, peace be upon them all.

p.s again Al Ma2mun Al Abbasy who u believe was caliph of muslims his mother was a persian, and he shifted his government to persia, u have a prob with that?
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[Aba_Thar]

Why was Salman al Farsi (a Persian)

God might have favored the Persians.
And this is ur mentality level.
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[Aba_Thar]

braiki send me kisra's prediction from a book so i can look into it.
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[BrAiKi]

I can see that you have a good dodging skills and your attempts to put words in my mouth is not working, even when you quote some parts of my posts and leave some ;)..

This reminds me of a funny story I had with a shei3i friend, when I read a story about Ali ibn Abi Talib and the man who was a follower of Ali but got his arm amputated because he stole, and after that he went on his way with his arm. A bunch of men of ahl al fitna who hated Ali ibn Abi Talib saw him and were like: do you still love Ali ibn abi talib? He said: By Allah, I love him now more than I used to !
Ali ibn abi Talib heard of what happened and summoned the man, asked him if what he said was true, the man did not deny it. So then Ali took the cut arm and said bismillah and below on it and it went back to the man's arm as if it was not amputated.

This is the story that I asked my shei3i friend (and I'm sure you are aware of this story too) and I asked him if it's a true story. My shei3i friend was like NOOOOOOOOOOOO this story is not true at ALL!
I felt strange and brought the book to him to read the story, and then he was like O THIS story! but you said his ARM was amputated, while the story says his HAND (wrist) was amputated! and I KNOW this story.
Ironic isn't it?

Here's your request with the reference:


روى ابن عياش في المقتضب، عن الحسين بن علي بن سفيان البزوفري ، عن محمد بن علي بن الحسن البوشنجاني، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن سليمان، عن أبيه، عن النوشجان بن البودمردان، قال: لما جلى الفرس عن القادسية وبلغ يزدجرد بن شهريار ما كان من رستم وإدالة العرب عليه وظن أن رستم قد هلك والفرس جميعا وجاء مبادر وأخبره بيوم القادسية وانجلائها عن خمسين ألف قتيل، خرج يزدجرد هاربا في أهل بيته ووقف بباب الايوان، وقال: السلام عليك أيها الايوان ! ها أنا ذا منصرف عنك وراجع إليك، أنا أو رجل من ولدي لم يدن زمانه ولا آن أوانه.
قال سليمان الديلمي: فدخلت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام فسألته عن ذلك وقلت له: ما قوله: " أو رجل من ولدي "
فقال: "ذلك صاحبكم القائم بأمر الله عز وجل السادس من ولدي قد ولده يزدجرد فهو ولده". انتهى

Reference:
كتاب بحار الأنوار للمجلسي - الجزء 51 - الصفحة 164 - طبعة مؤسسة الوفاء - بيروت لبنان- الطبعة الثانية 1403هـ - 1983م.

Translation: The Arabic text in summary says that when Kesra, the persian king, was running away after Muslims won the Qadisiya war, he passed by his throne (or palace) door and said: "peace be upon you o door, I will be leaving now but I will be back, either myself or someone from my sons who was not born yet"

So has God favored the pagan persian and gave him the ability to predict who's going to lead Islam and that will be from his sons?
Or was it the Persian who made up this story in the favor of his Pagan grandfather.

I am not criticizing the Imams, all had their levels of knowledge and their place is in heaven Insha2allah, whether they came from al hussien's Persian wife or one of his other wives or al hassans wives.
I just reject the idea of having 12 specific Imams following a certain line from al hussien's Persian wife, and I think that it is simply a Persian lore.

[El Rey]

My current Imam is Imam Al Mahdi AATF, who is urs?

3azizi El Rey Inshallah i'll answer ur Q's min 3eni whenever I get a chance, i'll answer 1 or 2 Q's from the questions that u have mentioned, and u also answer my question in return

But Al Mahdi doesn't exist :os . How do you follow someone who still didn't show up? You yourself said the hadeeth that every nation got an Imam. But currently there is no Imam.

Take this:



قال الرسول صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم :" من مات وليس في عنقه بيعة مات ميتة الجاهلية " هذا الحديث الذي رواه مسلم

Prophet Mohamad SAAWW: whoever dies without a Bay'a on his neck, he die death of Jahiliya.. Narrated by Muslim

If you die before the showing up of al mahdi, does this mean you died the death of Jahilliyah?


Answering your question. I have no Imam. I believe in the koran and sunna and I take what I don't understand from the scholars who I believe are better than me. I take from Ibadhis, Sunnis and Shites as well then evaluate all and follow my heart. This is how it works with me. Besides, did the previous Imams leave anything like their own books and hadeeths? How do Shites consider them?

I really appreciate your efforts in answering my questions. Thanks again.

[BrAiKi]

^^ I hate to be the one who breaks it down for you, but al ethna 3ashariya believe that he existed and then hid somewhere and is still hiding there until his time comes.

In other words, he is immortal, temporarily by the will of God

[El Rey]

Does anyone know where he's hiding? At least to get some teaching from him :os . How can an Imam whose people need him hide like this? And immortal? No kedding. Should I qoute the verse from the holy quran that says no one is immortal? No even prophets?

[BrAiKi]

ohooo inta ma ta3raf 3ajab (you never knew that!)
This ability for al mahdi is nothing compared to the other imams' abilities.
But..
Let's wait for Aba Tharr to give us his opinion regarding this.

[Aba_Thar]

ohooo inta ma ta3raf 3ajab (you never knew that!)
This ability for al mahdi is nothing compared to the other imams' abilities.
But..
Let's wait for Aba Tharr to give us his opinion regarding this.

The Ability of living that was given by God Al Humdillah it wasnt only for Al Imam Al Mehdi AATF, it was also for Al Khidhr A.S. who is also today alive according to Sahih Muslim and Al Sahih Al Bukhari, Al hakim Al Naysaburi, Ibn Habban, Al Asfahani, Al Manaawi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar, Ibn 3askair, Al Thahabi, Al Siyu6i.
Sahih Muslim:



صحيح مسلم- الفتن وأشراط الساعة - في صفة الدجال .... - رقم الحديث : ( 5229 )


- حدثني : ‏ ‏عمرو الناقد ‏ ‏والحسن الحلواني ‏ ‏وعبد بن حميد ‏ ‏وألفاظهم متقاربة ‏ ‏والسياق ‏ ‏لعبد ‏ ‏قال : ، حدثني : ‏ ‏وقال الآخران ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏يعقوب وهو إبن إبراهيم بن سعد ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏صالح ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏إبن شهاب ‏ ‏أخبرني : ‏ ‏عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتبة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏أبا سعيد الخدري ‏ ‏قال : ‏ ، حدثنا : رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يوماًً حديثاًًًً طويلاًً ، عن ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏فكان فيما ، حدثنا : قال : ‏ ‏يأتي وهو محرم عليه : أن يدخل ‏ ‏نقاب ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏فينتهي إلى بعض ‏ ‏السباخ ‏ ‏التي ‏ ‏تلي ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏فيخرج إليه يومئذ رجل هو خير الناس ‏ ‏أو من خير الناس ‏ ‏فيقول له : أشهد أنك ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏الذي ، حدثنا : رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏حديثه فيقول ‏ ‏الدجال :‏ ‏أرأيتم إن قتلت هذا ثم أحييته أتشكون في الأمر فيقولون : لا ، قال : فيقتله ثم يحييه فيقول حين يحييه : والله ما كنت فيك قط أشد بصيرة مني الآن قال : فيريد ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏أن يقتله ‏ ‏فلا يسلط عليه ‏، ‏قال ‏أبو إسحق ‏: ‏يقال : إن هذا الرجل هو ‏ ‏الخضر ‏ ‏(ع) ‏، ‏وحدثني : ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عبد الرحمن الدارمي ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏أبو اليمان ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏شعيب ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏في هذا الإسناد ‏ ‏بمثله.

The narration basically says that in the end or last zaman Al Dajjal will kill and give life to someone. Abu Ishaq comments that person is named Al Khidr A.S.

Sahih Al Bukhari:



صحيح البخاري- الفتن - لا يدخل الدجال المدينة - رقم الحديث : ( 6599 )

- حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبو اليمان ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏شعيب ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏أخبرني : ‏ ‏عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتبة بن مسعود ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏أبا سعيد ‏ ‏قال : ‏ ، حدثنا : رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يوماًً حديثاًًًً طويلاًً ، عن ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏فكان فيما يحدثنا به أنه قال : ‏ ‏يأتي ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏وهو محرم عليه : أن يدخل ‏ ‏نقاب ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏فينزل بعض ‏ ‏السباخ ‏ ‏التي تلي ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏فيخرج إليه يومئذ رجل وهو خير الناس ‏ ‏أو من خيار الناس ‏، ‏فيقول : أشهد أنك ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏الذي ، حدثنا : رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏حديثه فيقول ‏ ‏الدجال ‏: ‏أرأيتم إن قتلت هذا ثم أحييته هل تشكون في الأمر فيقولون : لا فيقتله ثم يحييه فيقول : والله ما كنت فيك أشد بصيرة مني اليوم فيريد ‏ ‏الدجال ‏ ‏أن يقتله فلا يسلط عليه.



فتح الباري بشرح صحيح البخاري


قوله : ( فيقتله ثم يحييه ) :


- قال إبن العربي : وقد وقع في قصة الذي قتله الخضر أنه وضع يده في رأسه فأقتلعه ، وفي أخرى فأضجعه بالسكين فذبحه ....


قوله : ( فيريد الدجال أن يقتله فلا يسلط عليه ) ‏:


- ووقع في صحيح مسلم عقب رواية عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتبة ، قال أبو إسحاق : يقال : إن هذا الرجل هو الخضر كذا أطلق فظن القرطبي أن أبا إسحاق المذكور هو السبيعي أحد الثقات من التابعين ، ولم يصب في ظنه فإن السند المذكور لم يجر لأبي إسحاق فيه ذكر ، وإنما أبو إسحاق الذي قال : ذلك هو إبراهيم بن محمد بن سفيان الزاهد راوي صحيح مسلم عنه كما جزم به عياض ، والنووي وغيرهما ، وقد ذكر ذلك القرطبي في تذكرته أيضاًً قبل ، فكان قوله في الموضع الثاني السبيعي سبق قلم ....


- قال معمر : بلغني أن الذي يقتل الدجال الخضر ، وكذا أخرجه إبن حبإن من طريق عبد الرزاق ، عن معمر قال : كانوا يرون أنه الخضر ، وقال إبن العربي : سمعت من يقول : إن الذي يقتله الدجال هو الخضر ، وهذه دعوى لا برهان لها.


I think 2 Narrations are enough, Al Mahdi AATF is my Imam of this Zaman, El Rey if u dont want to have an Imam then no one will force u, but the verse and the narrations exist.

[El Rey]

How did you conclude that Al Mahdi is living this current time?! Basing on what? And why doesn't he show up? Why hiding? Afraid of what? And what are his descriptions?

[Aba_Thar]

Narration in Al Bukhari through Saeed bin Al Musayab:

Imam Mahdi AATF is from Fatima's Sons



البخاري - التاريخ الكبير - الجزء : ( 8 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 406 )

3497 - يونس بن أبي الفرات قال عبيد الله بن سعيد هو الإسكاف ، قال محمد بن بكر ، حدثنا : يونس أبو الفرات مولى لقريش وكان هاهنا ، عن عائذ ، عن أبي مراية قوله سمع قتادة ، عن سعيد بن المسيب : المهدي من ولد فاطمة.


another Narration in Sunan Ibn Abi Dawood that says the Prophet SAAWW said:

Al Mahdi AATF is from my 3itra from Fatima's sons


سنن أبي داود - باب - المهدي - الجزء : ( 2 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 310 ) رقم الحديث : ( 3735 )


‏- حدثنا : ‏ ‏أحمد بن إبراهيم ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏عبد الله بن جعفر الرقي ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبو المليح الحسن بن عمر ‏، عن ‏زياد بن بيان ‏، عن ‏علي بن نفيل ‏، عن ‏سعيد بن المسيب ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أم سلمة ‏ ‏قالت : ‏سمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يقول ‏: ‏المهدي من ‏عترتي ‏ ‏من ولد ‏ ‏فاطمة ‏قال عبد الله بن جعفر ‏: وسمعت ‏ ‏أبا المليح ‏ ‏يثني على ‏ ‏علي بن نفيل ‏ ‏ويذكر منه صلاحاً.

There are 36 similar to those 2 narrations in the following sources:

Ibn Maja
Al Tabarani
3 narrations Al Hakim
Al Albani, and he comments that this hadith is considered SAHIH
Al Mutaqi aL hINDI
Al Siyuiti
Al Ajluni
6 narrations from Naeem bin Hammad
4 Narrations from Al Dani
Abdullah bin 3uday
Al Muzi
2 narrations Al Thahabi
Al Tabari
7 Narrations Al Qunduzi Al Hanafi

[Aba_Thar]

How did you conclude that Al Mahdi is living this current time?! Basing on what? And why doesn't he show up? Why hiding? Afraid of what? And what are his descriptions?

Y is Al Khidhr A.S. is hidden too?

[El Rey]

Well, to be honest with you Aba Thar I don't even believe that Al Khidhr is alive. I mean even if he's this doesn't interest me, the question is why would it? However, this is not our topic, you brought narrations to prove his existence and still living. Where are your narrations about Al mahdi still living and existing? And why is he hiding? You said you follow koran and sunna and then the Imam. How do you follow someone who is not among us? Till now he's just a myth so how do you follow a myth and how can this myth teach you about your religion?

[Aba_Thar]

I can see that you have a good dodging skills and your attempts to put words in my mouth is not working, even when you quote some parts of my posts and leave some ;)..

This reminds me of a funny story I had with a shei3i friend, when I read a story about Ali ibn Abi Talib and the man who was a follower of Ali but got his arm amputated because he stole, and after that he went on his way with his arm. A bunch of men of ahl al fitna who hated Ali ibn Abi Talib saw him and were like: do you still love Ali ibn abi talib? He said: By Allah, I love him now more than I used to !
Ali ibn abi Talib heard of what happened and summoned the man, asked him if what he said was true, the man did not deny it. So then Ali took the cut arm and said bismillah and below on it and it went back to the man's arm as if it was not amputated.

This is the story that I asked my shei3i friend (and I'm sure you are aware of this story too) and I asked him if it's a true story. My shei3i friend was like NOOOOOOOOOOOO this story is not true at ALL!
I felt strange and brought the book to him to read the story, and then he was like O THIS story! but you said his ARM was amputated, while the story says his HAND (wrist) was amputated! and I KNOW this story.
Ironic isn't it?

Here's your request with the reference:

Reference:
كتاب بحار الأنوار للمجلسي - الجزء 51 - الصفحة 164 - طبعة مؤسسة الوفاء - بيروت لبنان- الطبعة الثانية 1403هـ - 1983م.

Translation: The Arabic text in summary says that when Kesra, the persian king, was running away after Muslims won the Qadisiya war, he passed by his throne (or palace) door and said: "peace be upon you o door, I will be leaving now but I will be back, either myself or someone from my sons who was not born yet"

So has God favored the pagan persian and gave him the ability to predict who's going to lead Islam and that will be from his sons?
Or was it the Persian who made up this story in the favor of his Pagan grandfather.

I am not criticizing the Imams, all had their levels of knowledge and their place is in heaven Insha2allah, whether they came from al hussien's Persian wife or one of his other wives or al hassans wives.
I just reject the idea of having 12 specific Imams following a certain line from al hussien's Persian wife, and I think that it is simply a Persian lore.


Where is the correction of the narration? Tashih?

[Aba_Thar]

I can see that you have a good dodging skills and your attempts to put words in my mouth is not working, even when you quote some parts of my posts and leave some ;)..

This reminds me of a funny story I had with a shei3i friend, when I read a story about Ali ibn Abi Talib and the man who was a follower of Ali but got his arm amputated because he stole, and after that he went on his way with his arm. A bunch of men of ahl al fitna who hated Ali ibn Abi Talib saw him and were like: do you still love Ali ibn abi talib? He said: By Allah, I love him now more than I used to !
Ali ibn abi Talib heard of what happened and summoned the man, asked him if what he said was true, the man did not deny it. So then Ali took the cut arm and said bismillah and below on it and it went back to the man's arm as if it was not amputated.

This is the story that I asked my shei3i friend (and I'm sure you are aware of this story too) and I asked him if it's a true story. My shei3i friend was like NOOOOOOOOOOOO this story is not true at ALL!
I felt strange and brought the book to him to read the story, and then he was like O THIS story! but you said his ARM was amputated, while the story says his HAND (wrist) was amputated! and I KNOW this story.
Ironic isn't it?

Here's your request with the reference:

Reference:
كتاب بحار الأنوار للمجلسي - الجزء 51 - الصفحة 164 - طبعة مؤسسة الوفاء - بيروت لبنان- الطبعة الثانية 1403هـ - 1983م.

Translation: The Arabic text in summary says that when Kesra, the persian king, was running away after Muslims won the Qadisiya war, he passed by his throne (or palace) door and said: "peace be upon you o door, I will be leaving now but I will be back, either myself or someone from my sons who was not born yet"

So has God favored the pagan persian and gave him the ability to predict who's going to lead Islam and that will be from his sons?
Or was it the Persian who made up this story in the favor of his Pagan grandfather.

I am not criticizing the Imams, all had their levels of knowledge and their place is in heaven Insha2allah, whether they came from al hussien's Persian wife or one of his other wives or al hassans wives.
I just reject the idea of having 12 specific Imams following a certain line from al hussien's Persian wife, and I think that it is simply a Persian lore.

First of all I dont think ur friends stories has anything to do with me, yanni if I tell u i got many balushi friend who converted to Shia I dont think this would meet ur interest.

2nd Where is the correction of the narration? Tashih? Bihar Al Anwar has over 80 Mujalad, and we never said there is a book called Sahih such as Sahih Al Bukhari except Quran is the 100% correct book

[Aba_Thar]

Well, to be honest with you Aba Thar I don't even believe that Al Khidhr is alive. I mean even if he's this doesn't interest me, the question is why would it? However, this is not our topic, you brought narrations to prove his existence and still living. Where are your narrations about Al mahdi still living and existing? And why is he hiding? You said you follow koran and sunna and then the Imam. How do you follow someone who is not among us? Till now he's just a myth so how do you follow a myth and how can this myth teach you about your religion?

ood keep on rejecting narrations from Sahih Muslim and Bukhari. Al Khidhr is our topic cuz u asked bout immortal.

[El Rey]

I rejected nothing. I haven't even discussed the narrations. My question was about Al Mahdi. Where did you get that he's living nowadays with us? Why he's invisible? I mean hiding? Do you have any narrations about HIM not Al Khidhr? And what are his dscriptions? Is he Iranian now? Ibadhi? Sunni? Or no one still knows?

[BrAiKi]

Oh I used that story because you're playing the same tape buddy.
You asked for the source I brought it for you.

Are you saying that this story is not true and it was made up?

On the other hand, for the sake of argument, let's say that Al khudur is immortal as per the Hadiths you mentioned.
How does that prove that Al Mahdi is an immortal hiding somewhere.

On a side note: I'd rather have no Imam than believing in a hidden one.

[Aba_Thar]

I rejected nothing. I haven't even discussed the narrations. My question was about Al Mahdi. Where did you get that he's living nowadays with us? Why he's invisible? I mean hiding? Do you have any narrations about HIM not Al Khidhr? And what are his dscriptions? Is he Iranian now? Ibadhi? Sunni? Or no one still knows?

not Iranian, from Fatima Al Zahra A.S. Sons. none of the Imams are Iranian.

[BrAiKi]

The rest of the Imams are from Al hussien and his persian wife's sons.
Not al Hassan, not al hussien's other wives, nope. Only the persian wive's seed. As predicted by the Pagan Kesra in the book I quoted.
:yes:

[Aba_Thar]

Oh I used that story because you're playing the same tape buddy.
You asked for the source I brought it for you.

Are you saying that this story is not true and it was made up?

On the other hand, for the sake of argument, let's say that Al khudur is immortal as per the Hadiths you mentioned.
How does that prove that Al Mahdi is an immortal hiding somewhere.

On a side note: I'd rather have no Imam than believing in a hidden one.

am not playing any game dear (u have a bad niyya towards me, I cant help it) I have the right to ask for Tashih cuz our conditions and rules differ from urs, and Bihar Al Anwar Book is over 80 Books, do u think I'll believe in all the 80 books without inspections?

Al Khidhir A.S. Immortal proves possibility of living by God's will, its not something strange.

I got 40 narrations from Sunni books that Al Imam Al Mahdi AATF is already born, and not to be born.

I'll start with Al Thahabi



الذهبي - العبر في خبر من غبر - الجزء : ( 3 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 31 )

- وفيها [ أي : في سنة 256 ه* ] ولد محمد بن الحسن بن علي الهادي بن محمد الجواد بن علي الرضا بن موسى الكاظم بن جعفر الصادق العلوي الحسيني ، أبو القاسم الذي تلقبه الرافضة الخلف الحجة ، وتلقبه بالمهدي ، والمنتظر ، وتلقبه بصاحب الزمان ، وهو خاتمة الإثني عشر.



الذهبي - سير أعلام النبلاء - الجزء : ( 13 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 119 ) - رقم الترجمة : ( 60 )

- المنتظر الشريف محمد بن الحسن العسكري بن علي الهادي بن محمد الجواد بن علي الرضا بن موسى الكاظم بن جعفر الصادق بن محمد الباقر بن زين العابدين علي بن الحسين الشهيد بن الإمام علي بن أبي طالب الحسيني خاتمة الإثني عشر سيداً.


Ibn Al Jozi:



السبط إبن الجوزي - تذكرة الخواص - رقم الصفحة : ( 204 ) - طبعة طهران

- محمد بن الحسن بن علي بن محمد بن علي بن موسى بن جعفر بن محمد بن علي بن الحسين بن علي بن أبي طالب ، وكنيته أبو عبد الله وأبو القاسم وهو الخلف الحجة صاحب الزمان القائم والمنتظر والتالي وهو آخر الأئمة ، وقال : ويقال له ذو الإسمين محمد وأبو القاسم قالوا : أمه أم ولد يقال لها : صقيل.

Ibn Hajar Al Haithami:


إبن حجر الهيثمي - الصواعق المحرقة - رقم الصفحة : ( 124 ) - طبعة مصر

- ولم يخلف غير ولده أبي القاسم محمد الحجة ، وعمره عند وفاة أبيه خمس سنين ، لكن أتاه الله فيها الحكمة ، ويسمى القائم المنتظر ، قيل : لأنه ستر بالمدينة وغاب ، فلم يعرف أين ذهب ، ومر في الآية الثانية عشر قول الرافضة فيه إنه المهدي ، وروي ذلك مبسوطاً ، فراجعه فإنه مهم.


Al Qunduzi Al Hanafi:


القندوزي الحنفي - ينابيع المودة - الجزء : ( 3 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 306 )


- .... ورجع الحسن إلى داره ، وتوفي (ر) ، ويقال : إنه مات بالسم ، ولم يخلف غير ولده أبي القاسم محمد الحجة ، وعمره عند وفاة أبيه خمس سنين ، لكن أتاه الله تعالى الحكمة ، ويسمى القائم المنتظر ، لأنه ستر وغاب فلم يعرف أين ذهب .... فالخبر المعلوم المحقق عند الثقات أن ولادة القائم (ع) كانت ليلة الخامس عشر من شعبان سنة خمس وخمسين ومائتين في بلدة سامراء عند القرآن الأصغر الذي كان في القوس ، وهو رابع القرآن الأكبر الذي كان في القوس ، وكان الطالع الدرجة الخامسة والعشرين من السرطان.

I think this is enough for now. Anyhow this thread was opened by El Rey cuz he was interested to know bout the 12 Imams, I have accepted to participate based on his interest, its not that I have opened it to challenge and to show up my muscles. What I want right now is that I want to open a new thread and end this one, and questions to be asked by me, and all of u can participate I dont mind bout a famous topic that I choose, do u agree? and again its cuz I want to know bout u guyz as well, answer me like how i did receive ur questions and answered most (I wont say most, maybe I didnt notice something Questions), and I hope the discussion that goes between us doesnt goes on personal issues or stuff like that, I want it to be based on exchanging information and understanding each other. Please let me know if It's possible to have that.

Fee Aman Allah.

[Aba_Thar]

The rest of the Imams are from Al hussien and his persian wife's sons.
Not al Hassan, not al hussien's other wives, nope. Only the persian wive's seed. As predicted by the Pagan Kesra in the book I quoted.
:yes:

Yes and one of them Is Al Imam Al Sadiq A.S. who was the teacher of Al Maliki and Al Hanafi the 2 Imams of Sunna. Al Maliki and Al Hanafi got their teachings from Persia as well based on Al Braiki's theory. and the book u mentioned is not an evidence on me I wont believe in over 80 Mujalad all of it non of the Shia would, its great how ur trying to force me to put an Image that u brought up an evidence against me.

[BrAiKi]

am not playing any game dear (u have a bad niyya towards me, I cant help it) I have the right to ask for Tashih cuz our conditions and rules differ from urs, and Bihar Al Anwar Book is over 80 Books, do u think I'll believe in all the 80 books without inspections?

I think it's very clear on who's got a bad niyya. You ask for something then beat around the bush and not answer the questions.
But hey it's alright, it's a very usual thing when it comes to al 2ethna 3ashariya (12 imams) topics.

Khuda Hafiz :XD:

[BrAiKi]

Well go back to your current scholars/sheikh's/asyaad/maraaji3 the next time you pay them 1/5th of your income and ask them about this narration and whether they believe in it or not.

[El Rey]

not Iranian, from Fatima Al Zahra A.S. Sons. none of the Imams are Iranian.

BUT WHY IS HE HIDING FOR GOD'S SAKE. And the rest of the questions please Aba Thar.


am not playing any game dear (u have a bad niyya towards me, I cant help it) I have the right to ask for Tashih cuz our conditions and rules differ from urs, and Bihar Al Anwar Book is over 80 Books, do u think I'll believe in all the 80 books without inspections?

Al Khidhir A.S. Immortal proves possibility of living by God's will, its not something strange.

I got 40 narrations from Sunni books that Al Imam Al Mahdi AATF is already born, and not to be born.

I'll start with Al Thahabi



الذهبي - العبر في خبر من غبر - الجزء : ( 3 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 31 )

- وفيها [ أي : في سنة 256 ه* ] ولد محمد بن الحسن بن علي الهادي بن محمد الجواد بن علي الرضا بن موسى الكاظم بن جعفر الصادق العلوي الحسيني ، أبو القاسم الذي تلقبه الرافضة الخلف الحجة ، وتلقبه بالمهدي ، والمنتظر ، وتلقبه بصاحب الزمان ، وهو خاتمة الإثني عشر.



الذهبي - سير أعلام النبلاء - الجزء : ( 13 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 119 ) - رقم الترجمة : ( 60 )

- المنتظر الشريف محمد بن الحسن العسكري بن علي الهادي بن محمد الجواد بن علي الرضا بن موسى الكاظم بن جعفر الصادق بن محمد الباقر بن زين العابدين علي بن الحسين الشهيد بن الإمام علي بن أبي طالب الحسيني خاتمة الإثني عشر سيداً.


Ibn Al Jozi:



السبط إبن الجوزي - تذكرة الخواص - رقم الصفحة : ( 204 ) - طبعة طهران

- محمد بن الحسن بن علي بن محمد بن علي بن موسى بن جعفر بن محمد بن علي بن الحسين بن علي بن أبي طالب ، وكنيته أبو عبد الله وأبو القاسم وهو الخلف الحجة صاحب الزمان القائم والمنتظر والتالي وهو آخر الأئمة ، وقال : ويقال له ذو الإسمين محمد وأبو القاسم قالوا : أمه أم ولد يقال لها : صقيل.

Ibn Hajar Al Haithami:


إبن حجر الهيثمي - الصواعق المحرقة - رقم الصفحة : ( 124 ) - طبعة مصر

- ولم يخلف غير ولده أبي القاسم محمد الحجة ، وعمره عند وفاة أبيه خمس سنين ، لكن أتاه الله فيها الحكمة ، ويسمى القائم المنتظر ، قيل : لأنه ستر بالمدينة وغاب ، فلم يعرف أين ذهب ، ومر في الآية الثانية عشر قول الرافضة فيه إنه المهدي ، وروي ذلك مبسوطاً ، فراجعه فإنه مهم.


Al Qunduzi Al Hanafi:


القندوزي الحنفي - ينابيع المودة - الجزء : ( 3 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 306 )


- .... ورجع الحسن إلى داره ، وتوفي (ر) ، ويقال : إنه مات بالسم ، ولم يخلف غير ولده أبي القاسم محمد الحجة ، وعمره عند وفاة أبيه خمس سنين ، لكن أتاه الله تعالى الحكمة ، ويسمى القائم المنتظر ، لأنه ستر وغاب فلم يعرف أين ذهب .... فالخبر المعلوم المحقق عند الثقات أن ولادة القائم (ع) كانت ليلة الخامس عشر من شعبان سنة خمس وخمسين ومائتين في بلدة سامراء عند القرآن الأصغر الذي كان في القوس ، وهو رابع القرآن الأكبر الذي كان في القوس ، وكان الطالع الدرجة الخامسة والعشرين من السرطان.

I think this is enough for now. Anyhow this thread was opened by El Rey cuz he was interested to know bout the 12 Imams, I have accepted to participate based on his interest, its not that I have opened it to challenge and to show up my muscles. What I want right now is that I want to open a new thread and end this one, and questions to be asked by me, and all of u can participate I dont mind bout a famous topic that I choose, do u agree? and again its cuz I want to know bout u guyz as well, answer me like how i did receive ur questions and answered most (I wont say most, maybe I didnt notice something Questions), and I hope the discussion that goes between us doesnt goes on personal issues or stuff like that, I want it to be based on exchanging information and understanding each other. Please let me know if It's possible to have that.

Fee Aman Allah.


Why open another thread. Let's first conclude this. We have just started :cute:.

By the way, you mentioned the name of Al Mahdi fully. This way we can track him by name. Ask in the hospitals or at least to ask about his father. When we know the name these days we know the person wherever he's. What do you think? And am serious walla.

[Aba_Thar]

BUT WHY IS HE HIDING FOR GOD'S SAKE. And the rest of the questions please Aba Thar.



Why open another thread. Let's first conclude this. We have just started :cute:.

By the way, you mentioned the name of Al Mahdi fully. This way we can track him by name. Ask in the hospitals or at least to ask about his father. When we know the name these days we know the person wherever he's. What do you think? And am serious walla.

Because its not becoming a meaningful dialogue anymore, the thread was started in a good way, and then in the middle it became teasing and making fun, whereas I'm answering most Q's like a GoalKeeper who's forced to answer, do u think when some people r making fun here, do u think ur seeking pleasure of God? I accepted this thread for God, but I dont see it worth continuing. I want to open a thread and c how my Questions r being asked without making fun without teasing. Regarding the hyding stuff that ur mentioning and hospital o madri aish, God gave u an example of Al Khidhr A.S. and Jesus A.S. who's alive and will return (Jesus A.S. soul isnt seperatedfrom his body), yet no one is questioning y they're live, u just add the 12 Imam narrations + Al Mahdi AATF from Fatima's sons + the narrations that Al Mahdi AATF is already born + narrations that the Prophet SAAWW says there is a time thAt Al Mahdi AATF comes + narrations that says that Jesus A.S. will pray behind Al Mahdi AATF (you'll get a conclusion). Anywayz if a new thread cannot be opened, I guess then I wont continue, my role here isnt only answering questions, I have clarified enough, if you're really interested to know more I can refer to you some books, but I'm not ready here to bear all the teasings, this is not my place.

Fee Aman Allah

[El Rey]

Am sorry if you got offended by my questions and assumptions but when you don't answer the Qs Aba Thar you force us to assume. I don't know why you're so upset about those kind of questions. My questions were crystal clear about Al Mahdi. Where are your narrations that he's born and hiding? Where is he hiding and why? You don't compare him with Jesus PBUH though Allah already said in the holy quran that Allah took Jesus's soul. Y3ni died. I asked some other questions that I didn't get an answer for them. Yes I was a bit sarcastic in my assumptons but at the same time those remarks were on topic and had a meaning.

Anyways, I appreciate your effort again and it's your choice to answer the questions or not and you can open another thread about it if you want but I assure you it will be just the same.

[Aba_Thar]

My Conclusion


Am sorry if you got offended by my questions and assumptions but when you don't answer the Qs Aba Thar you force us to assume. I don't know why you're so upset about those kind of questions. My questions were crystal clear about Al Mahdi. Where are your narrations that he's born and hiding? Where is he hiding and why? You don't compare him with Jesus PBUH though Allah already said in the holy quran that Allah took Jesus's soul. Y3ni died. I asked some other questions that I didn't get an answer for them. Yes I was a bit sarcastic in my assumptons but at the same time those remarks were on topic and had a meaning.

Anyways, I appreciate your effort again and it's your choice to answer the questions or not and you can open another thread about it if you want but I assure you it will be just the same.

Salam Alaikum El Rey, bout that Al Imam Al Mahdi AATF is born or not? u can go back to post #70 and recheck dear.

Bout Jesus A.S. I appologize there is some mistake from my side regarding this, I have double checked on Tafasir, and found actually there are different tafseers of this verse:

Al Imran 55
إذ قال الله يا عيسى إني متوفيك ورافعك إلي ومطهرك من الذين كفروا وجاعل الذين اتبعوك فوق الذين كفروا إلى يوم القيامة ثم إلي مرجعكم فأحكم بينكم فيما كنتم فيه

for ex. Al Jalalin says: was raised up from Dunia without death, Ibn Kathir narrates more than an opinion, such as: some ppl said death, some say 3 hours, some say sleep death.. Anywayz what I mean is I rechecked and found it was Al Jalalin who said it wasnt death.

Regrading the reason of Al Ghayba of Imam Al Mahdi AATF. Actually to be honest the answer isnt like a small sentence, I need to type u a search, but I can refer to ready searches or book of the reasons of Al Ghayba or u can watch or download a program called Al U6ru7a Al Mawhdawiya if u were serious bout wanting to know the reasons of Al Ghayba, but I want to highlight one thing, both Sunna and Shia agree that there is Al Mahdi AATF for sure, believing in Al Mahdi AATF is a part of the religion and both agree that Al Mahdi AATF and Jesus A.S. will be together and have the same Goals, and so Al Khidhr A.S. will reappear as I posted before. I have mentioned in my previous post that Jesus A.S. according to Sunni sources will pray behind Al Mahdi AATF and I didnt post the source, so I have to post the source here from Al Hafidh Al Siyu6i and Ibn Hajar:

يقول الحافظ السيوطي في

[الحاوي للفتاوى]: «هذا من أعجب العجب، فإنّ صلاة عيسى

خلف المهدي ثابتة في عدّة أحاديث صحيحة بإخبار رسول

اللّه، وهو الصادق المصدّق الذي لا يخلف خبره».

Book Al Hawi Lil Fatawi 2 / 167


and Ibn Hajar in 9awa3iq Mu7riqa page 167 some comments that this hadith is Mutawatir.

This narration can also be found in
Musnad Ahmed, Musnad Al Mukthirin, Musnad jabir bin Abdullah R.A, hadith 14426
Ibn Hajar in Fat7 Al Bari, part 6, Page 358
Muntakhab Kanz Al Ummal, Part 6, page 30
Ghayat Al Ma2mul, Part 5, Page 365
Yanabi3 AL Mawadda Page 449
Al Mala7im Wal Fitan, section 83
There are alot more.

I think this is my last post regarding this topic, there was one question I guess left from u El Rey u said in one of ur posts can u be Al Mahdi? refer to the narrations of Jesus A.S. praying and c is that person that the Prophet SAAWW talked bout in many narrations can it be u? and other thing is that u r just born not more than 30 or 40 or 50 yrs ago, and the big signs didnt yet show up, as muslims agree that Al Mahdi AATF will appear or some say born after some signs take place. One more narration to add regarding this questions also:



صحيح البخاري - نزول عيسى إبن مريم (ع) - أحاديث الأنبياء - رقم الحديث : ( 3193 )


‏- حدثنا : ‏ ‏إبن بكير ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏الليث ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏إبن شهاب ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏مولى ‏ ‏أبي قتادة الأنصاري ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏أبا هريرة ‏ ‏قال :

‏قال رسول الله ‏‏(ص) ‏: ‏كيف أنتم إذا نزل ‏ ‏إبن مريم ‏ ‏فيكم وإمامكم منكم

ask ur self again: this person that the Prophet SAAWW talked bout in many narrations, can it be just a normal person? or should be a great leader?

One last verse to support the existence of a guide person every zaman:

الرعد (7) :ويقول الذين كفروا لولا انزل عليه ايه من ربه انما انت منذر ولكل قوم هاد
[7] And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.



السيوطي - الدر المنثور - الجزء : ( 4 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 45 )


- وأخرج إبن جرير وإبن مردويه وأبو نعيم في المعرفة والديلمي وإبن عساكر وإبن النجار قال : لما نزلت : إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد ، وضع رسول الله (ص) يده على صدره فقال : أنا المنذر وأومأ بيده إلي : منكب علي (ر) فقال : أنت الهادى يا علي بك يهتدى المهتدون من بعدى.




إبن عساكر- تاريخ مدينة دمشق - الجزء : ( 42 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 359 )


- أخبرنا : أبو العز بن كادش ، أنا : أبو الطيب طاهر بن عبد الله ، أنا : علي بن عمر بن محمد الحربي ، نا : أحمد بن الحسن بن عبد الجبار ، نا : عثمان بن أبي شيبة ، نا : المطلب بن زياد ، عن السدي ، عن عبد خير ، عن علي في قول الله عز وجل : إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد ، قال رسول الله (ص) المنذر ، والهادي علي.



الحاكم الحسكاني - شواهد التنزيل - الجزء : ( 1 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 381 )


- عن إبن عباس قال : لما نزلت : إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد ، قال رسول الله (ص) : أنا المنذر وعلي الهادي من بعدي وضرب بيده إليّ صدر علي ، فقال : أنت الهادي بعدي يا علي بك يهتدي المهتدون.


And Ofcourse the Guide should guide them to the right path and not half right and half wrong or totally wrong.

Anywayz I think I have covered as much Q's as I can, and I'll be honest it wasnt few questions, it was alot thats y I tried my best to cover most, not in niyya in challenging, I did it cuz I think these posts is Qurbatan Ila Allah Ta3ala, and also passing some information and receiving information. I Think thats it for me in this thread, and thanks El Rey for giving me ur time, even though I c its better when u discuss stuff bout religion with Muslim Brothers or Christians or Budhi or whoever try to avoid sarcastic style (I think it means Sukhriya) of conversation or kind of making joke of the other party, cuz this wont be a useful discussion and the other party wont want to listen and will take it as a personal discussion and the whole discussion will be considered a waste of time, even though ur part or religion is the right path, with these jokes the other party will be misguided. Anyhow thanks alot for opening this thread, and sorry If I said anything that u didnt like, please accept my Apology. I'll let u know once am ready for the next thread, or we might be on the same side supporting our religion.

Fee Aman Allah.

[Reluctant]

Lots of good questions were raised in this thread.

El Rey, I would like to go through these questions as well, for my own benefit too.

InshaAllah, if you could tell me the one issue that's on your mind now, we can focus on one at a time and not flood the thread with information, and we can approach it through a reasonable manner.

I am Shia and have done a lot of research, but feel I can present more personalized findings and reasoning. Please let me know if you'd like to speak about it...and what topic you'd like to specifically focus on.

May Allah reward you with good, Aba_Thar.

Assalaamu aleykum

[Aba_Thar]

I remembered 2 things that I was suppose to answer before concluding this thread:

El Rey I didnt say that Quran comes first then Sunna then Ahlulbayt A.S., i said Quran and Sunna are considered Ma9adir tashri3, but not all the Sunna will guide us to the right path, Its the Quran and Ahlulbayt A.S. according to hadith al Thaqalain the Mutawatir one.

Regarding the narration that Al braiki posted, this is the tadh3eef or weakness for it from more than a source, this is the narration:

روى ابن عياش في المقتضب، عن الحسين بن علي بن سفيان البزوفري ، عن محمد بن علي بن الحسن البوشنجاني، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن سليمان، عن أبيه، عن النوشجان بن البودمردان، قال: لما جلى الفرس عن القادسية وبلغ يزدجرد بن شهريار ما كان من رستم وإدالة العرب عليه وظن أن رستم قد هلك والفرس جميعا وجاء مبادر وأخبره بيوم القادسية وانجلائها عن خمسين ألف قتيل، خرج يزدجرد هاربا في أهل بيته ووقف بباب الايوان، وقال: السلام عليك أيها الايوان ! ها أنا ذا منصرف عنك وراجع إليك، أنا أو رجل من ولدي لم يدن زمانه ولا آن أوانه.
قال سليمان الديلمي: فدخلت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام فسألته عن ذلك وقلت له: ما قوله: " أو رجل من ولدي "
فقال: "ذلك صاحبكم القائم بأمر الله عز وجل السادس من ولدي قد ولده يزدجرد فهو ولده". انتهى

The hadith is considered very weak because of Mohamad bin Sulaiman Al Dailami and his father Sulaiman Al Dailami.

those r the sources of his weakness:

قال المحقق السيد الخوئي في ( معجم رجال الحديث ) : ولا شك في انصراف محمد بن سليمان إلى البصري الديلمي، فإنه المعروف المشهور ( 1 ).

قال النجاشي: محمد بن سليمان بن عبد الله الديلمي، ضعيف جداً، لا يُعوَّل عليه في شيء ( 2 ).

وقال في ترجمة أبيه: سليمان بن عبد الله الديلمي أبو محمد... وقيل: كان غالياً كذَّاباً، وكذلك ابنه محمد، لا يُعمل بما انفردا به من الرواية ( 3 ).

وقال الشيخ في رجاله : له كتاب، يُرمى بالغلو ( 4 ).

وقال العلامة في رجاله : ضعيف جداً لا يعوَّل عليه في شيء ( 5 ).


المصادر :

1 ) معجم رجال الحديث 16/134.
( 2 ) رجال النجاشي 2/269.
( 3 ) نفس المصدر 1/412.
( 4 ) رجال الطوسي، ص 343.
( 5 ) رجال العلامة، ص 255.

Weakened by Al Sayed Al Khu'i, Al Najashi, Al Toosi, Al Alaama.

Thanks alot Al Baa7ith.

Fee Aman Allah

[El Rey]

Thanks alot Aba Thar for giving me some of your precious time and your reserach and honest desire to answer my questions. And sorry if I indirectly offended you, just to tell you that I mean no insult but discussion though sometimes I carry some sarcastic posts as a friendly tickle.


Lots of good questions were raised in this thread.

El Rey, I would like to go through these questions as well, for my own benefit too.

InshaAllah, if you could tell me the one issue that's on your mind now, we can focus on one at a time and not flood the thread with information, and we can approach it through a reasonable manner.

I am Shia and have done a lot of research, but feel I can present more personalized findings and reasoning. Please let me know if you'd like to speak about it...and what topic you'd like to specifically focus on.

May Allah reward you with good, Aba_Thar.

Assalaamu aleykum

Thanks baa7ith, then we can continue from here. I will drop the all imams subject for now and may come back to them in general later on but leave only one question regarding this and it's Braiki's question. Why all of them from the Persian wife of Al hussain RAA?

My questions now are regarding al mahdi since we're still here.

You guys say he's already born. How is he born? A normal birth or something miraculous? Is he alive? And in what shape? I mean human with flesh or something like a spirit only or what? And what's the proof of his birth? Did anyone see him? How does he look like? And what's the purpose of him being hiding?


These till now. I have others but I will leave them for later and as some answers will come am sure other questions will pop out of them.

Thanks in advance

[Reluctant]

Assalaamu aleykum El Rey.

I know that we have narrations about the reasoning for why the imaams went from al-Hassan, to al-Hussein, and then to his children. However, one of the ways in which an imaam is recognized, in our teachings, is that he is known for his piety and knowledge among the people.

'Ali ibn Hussein ibn Abi Talib, Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Baqir, Ja'far ibn Muhammad al-Saadiq, and Musa ibn Ja'far al-Ridha are all accepted among Sunnis as being very learned fuqaha...and they are all father-son from the line of al-Hussein. The same cannot be said of the children of al-Hassan. The family line of al-Hussein enjoys many learned and distinguished scholars, all father and son, which is unique. However, there are other points which can be expounded upon, inshaAllah.

I approached Shia Islam through fiqh. I saw that there was a lot of ikhtilaaf within the Sunni madhabs, and I was seeking to find the sunnah of the Prophet. How has the sunnah been preserved and how can we practice Islam with surety today? As I researched fiqh, I studied various sects and their conceptions of how the sunnah has been preserved. I joined ES because it is the only place where I could find information on Ibadhis in English.

As I continued to study fiqh, I had researched Shia Islam in general, but then I came across the fiqh of Ja'far al-Saadiq in Sunni books. There are two books that are well known for understanding early Islamic fiqh--the Musannafs of 'Abd al-Razzaq al-Sanaani and Abu Bakr ibn Abi Shaybah. These are encyclopedias which contain the fiqh views of the sahaba, tabi'een, and other early Islamic scholars--all with isnads, and for basically every issue of Islamic practice you could imagine. It helps to study them when seeking to understand early Islamic jurisprudence and its trends and formulation.

Through these Musannafs, I actually found the narrations of those people who the Shias consider to be imaams--mainly Muhammad ibn Ali ibn al-Hussein ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, and his son Ja'far (the 5th and 6th Shia imams). Through their narrations, I could see that being from such a line of eminent scholars, they were in a very good rational position to know the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). The knowledge of Imam 'Ali in terms of fiqh can be seen from Sunni narrations, and it was clear that Imam al-Baqir and Imam Ja'far spoke routinely about the fiqh of Imam 'Ali and considered it to be synonymous with the sunnah of the Prophet. Moreover, through these books, I could see that these figures taught a conception of fiqh which was codified by Shias. Overtime, I studied their narrations more, and I came to the conclusion that the sunnah of the Prophet was preserved through the ahlul bayt, and these imaams, and that to follow these imaams, we must follow the teachings of "Twelver Shias," who claim to follow them and have codified their teachings in-full.

So, my decision to be a Shia was based on trying to find and follow the sunnah of the Prophet with surety. Following the ahlul bayt is the means by which, in my mind, one follows the Prophet. Although the imaams had many roles, including ideally leading the ummah in terms of political and religious affairs, they also, in our minds, taught and preserved the true sunnah and the true Islamic teachings, which from my research, the Sunnis had not preserved, due to their ikhtilaaf on wide-ranging issues.

So, for me, I came to see the truth of Shia Islam through fiqh, and I did not have a problem subsequently accepting the aqeedah. I have come to more see the predominance of aqeedah over fiqh, however, I still hold that fiqh is important, and I feel that fiqh has led me to the correct aqeedah.

One such example which shows Imam Ja'far's true views is this narration:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ ، قَالَ : نَا حَاتِمُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ ، عَنْ جَعْفَرٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ , وَمُسْلِمِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ , أَنَّ عَلِيَّ بْنَ حُسَيْنٍ كَانَ يُؤَذِّنُ ، فَإِذَا بَلَغَ حَيَّ عَلَى الْفَلَاحِ ، قَالَ : حَيَّ عَلَى خَيْرِ الْعَمَلِ ، وَيَقُولُ : " هُوَ الْأَذَانُ الْأَوَّلُ

http://www.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?hflag=1&bk_no=96&pid=359126

I trust you can read Arabic.

This phrase in the adhaan has also been reported authentically from Ibn 'Umar. However, this was said by 'Ali ibn al-Hussein, and transmitted by the ahlul bayt. Moreover, I did a tahqeeq of the narrations from Haatim ibn Ismaa'il to Imaam Ja'far ibn Muhammad and discovered many more of his teachings which he imparted to his students and those around him, which in my eyes prove that he knew the sunnah very well, and taught a conception of Islam that has been uniquely preserved by twelver Shias. We consider him to have preserved the sunnah, and he hinted at this, such as in this narration, and we follow him and his family, in order that we may know the Prophet's sunnah.

So, given that I have surety that the ahlul bayt 'alayhim salaam preserved the Prophet's sunnah, and I have researched this so extensively, I am not bothered by issues of aqeedah--because I can see that the aqeedah has been confirmed through fiqh. So, while I recognize the importance of questions surrounding Imam al-Mahdi, I have not researched it as much as I should, but do not have a problem accepting it because I have researched fiqh so extensively and strongly believe that the imaams preserved the sunnah, and that to follow the imaams, we can follow them in full by following the teachings that have been codified by Shias.

So, I'm sorry I cannot answer your questions, as aqeedah in this area is not my strong point, but I hope someone else can.

If you have any questions surrounding the ahlul bayt, and how they preserved, practiced, and taught the sunnah of the Prophet, please let me know. And in the mean time I will research your questions--as I have come across narrations about them.

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

[El Rey]

Thanks baa7ith. For a while I got enthusiastic that my questions would be answered but I understand your situation.

[Mimi]

Sorry for not going through all the posts here.




You guys say he's already born. How is he born? A normal birth or something miraculous? Is he alive? And in what shape? I mean human with flesh or something like a spirit only or what? And what's the proof of his birth? Did anyone see him? How does he look like? And what's the purpose of him being hiding?



Maybe they mean Al-Husein Al-Leheedy (http://www.almahdy.net) He claims to be AlMahdi and he says in one of his books that his daughter (Fatima) will mary Jesus. He and his companions speak well, but I could doubt it for two simple reasons: he's ugly, and has no manners.

[El Rey]

Sunnis and Shites have different views on al mahdi. Marry Jesus. For sure? Now that would be a combination. Anyways, thanks for your help I mean trying to help Eloquor. I have lots of questions on mind regarding this subject.

[BrAiKi]

Thanks baa7ith for your input. I very much respect you and your posts because you do not beat around the bush and are straight forward when it comes to answering questions.

I don't agree with the statement that the aqeedah has been confirmed through fiqh. But that's how you feel about it and I totally respect that.
My request is to get an indepth knowledge with the 'aqeeda part of the twelver shia section. Because, once upon a time, I was a seeker myself and I found lots of contradictions and during my research I concluded that the twelver Shia section at some point started to promote the Persian's rule & their heritage, adding lots of bidaa' (innovations) in my opinion.

I am an Abathi by birth but I chose to become a Sunni, not that Sunna are flawless, because basically no section is flawless, but in my opinion, a flaw in fiqh (which is a result of an ijtihaad, an opinion of a certain scholar) is not as significant as a flaw in 'aqeeda

[El Rey]

So you believe in al mahdi too, right? :D

[Reluctant]

Thanks baa7ith. For a while I got enthusiastic that my questions would be answered but I understand your situation.

Well, El Rey, no offense, but it's sort of upon you to find answers to these things.

I am sure that by Googling some things in Arabic you would be able to find some very good answers. If you want answers, you can find them. If you need genuine help locating sources which can explain these concepts, I will provide you with some leads. Or, if you are serious, you could join an Arabic Shia forum and ask there.

Early Shia scholars wrote books dedicated to the concept of Imam al-Mahdi and the "al-ghayba."

If you are a native Arabic speaker, there is no reason why you should not be researching on your own. No offense, but talking about these in-depth Islamic things and researching, on an English forum, not even dedicated to Islam, when you are a native Arab...is strange. I am not Arab and I have learned Arabic and struggled to read information and gain knowledge. I cannot read everything. As an Arabic speaker, you have no excuse. I suggest going to the sources themselves. There is not much you will be able to benefit from in English...and an English forum is not where you are going to find the information you need.

So, with all due respect, if you want to learn, I suggest researching on your own. If you're really interested, I'm not sure why you didn't do that in the first place.

Wa assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

[BrAiKi]

The mahdi in Sunna is totally different than the one is Shia.
But nope I don't believe in him nor the second coming of the Messiah.

[Mimi]

So you believe in al mahdi too, right? :D

Ibadhis dont believe in him walla eish? :mmhmm:

[El Rey]

Well, El Rey, no offense, but it's sort of upon you to find answers to these things.

I am sure that by Googling some things in Arabic you would be able to find some very good answers. If you want answers, you can find them. If you need genuine help locating sources which can explain these concepts, I will provide you with some leads. Or, if you are serious, you could join an Arabic Shia forum and ask there.

Early Shia scholars wrote books dedicated to the concept of Imam al-Mahdi and the "al-ghayba."

If you are a native Arabic speaker, there is no reason why you should not be researching on your own. No offense, but talking about these in-depth Islamic things and researching, on an English forum, not even dedicated to Islam, when you are a native Arab...is strange. I am not Arab and I have learned Arabic and struggled to read information and gain knowledge. I cannot read everything. As an Arabic speaker, you have no excuse. I suggest going to the sources themselves. There is not much you will be able to benefit from in English...and an English forum is not where you are going to find the information you need.

So, with all due respect, if you want to learn, I suggest researching on your own. If you're really interested, I'm not sure why you didn't do that in the first place.

Wa assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

I really salut you for your effort in searching and learning the language. Allah will reward you for this. For me, yes I read about the Shites mahdi and how they see him and nothing really convinced me. He's the son of a woman who was a hostage and saw Jesus in her dream? Why Jesus? Why not the prophet PBUH? And him being born till now and being invisible and all those stuff? But sorry nothign I grasped. I don't join forums to be honest with you and I don't like discussing with people where when you disagree you're anti- and thus you're an enemy. I saw many forums where all they talk is just casting swears at each sect and you learn nothing. Here I opened this thread cos a qoute from Aba Thar took my attention as you see in the first post of mine and since I felt he understands very well his sect I thought to gain some information regarding this.

Braiki, that's good for you :D

[El Rey]

Ibadhis dont believe in him walla eish? :mmhmm:

No they don't

[Mimi]

^ wow O.o Interesting though...

[Reluctant]

Well, El Rey, I converted to Islam and did all the research on my own, and slowly learned Arabic because there were concepts I wanted to study further and information about things that interested me that wasn't available in English. Furthermore, I sensed shortcomings in Sunni Islam and researched all sects until I arrived at what I believed to be the truth.

So, if you really have a drive to learn, you can research and come to your own understanding of the issues.

Some of the sources specifically dedicated to this are:

Kitaab al-Ghaybah by Sheikh al-Tusi, and al-Nu'mani, and Ikmal al-Deen by Sheikh al-Sadouq. Googling anything about Imaam al-Mahdi should lead to some good results. Furthermore, if you come across a narration, you can Google it, and generally find out if it's saheeh or not.

However, you don't have to join a forum. If you are interested, you can research it on your own, and you have no hindrances in the knowledge you can reach because you speak Arabic, and all of the sources are online.

Wa assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

[Reluctant]

I really salut you for your effort in searching and learning the language. Allah will reward you for this.

Thank you, El Rey. May Allah bless you and reward you too and give us knowledge. Ameen.

[Al-Uqul]

Salam Im a Musta3ali Ismaili shia

If beleivng in imam is obligatory for Jannah then We Win you lose

and if it is not and then we win aswel because it will be no diffrent then us beleiving in Santa claus or easter bunny(though hidden imam is reality)

[Al-Uqul]

the Imam hidden is like the Same Way al-khidhr, and Ilyas are hidden

and the Hidden imam went to hiding as a Child
this is possible and likely since allah stated

Bismillah al-rahman Alraheem

'O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might,' And We gave him the appointment (of prophethood) in his CHILDHOOD." (Quran 19:12 )


But she(Mary) pointed to the baby. They said: 'How can we talk to one who is a CHILD in the cradle?' He said: 'I am indeed a servant of Allah. He HAS GIVEN me Scripture and ASSIGNED me a prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I be, and has enjoined on me Prayer and Zakat as long as I live.'" (Quran 19:29-31)

Here is some Examples from the Science :

they are known as prodigies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_prodigy

heres one prodigy who was a surgeoun at age 7 http://www.oddee.com/item_96629.aspx

John Stuart Mill (1806-73), a 19th-century English philosopher and economist, advocated utilitarian reforms in his many writings and as member of Parliament. A child prodigy, Mill had mastered Greek by the age of 7 and studied economics at the age of 13. His works express his social thought with great clarity and thoroughness. (The Bettmann Archive).

The French thinker, mathematician, and scientist Blaise Pascal (1623-62) has been credited not only with imaginative and subtle work in geometry and other branches of mathematics, but with profoundly influencing later generations of theologians and philosophers. A prodigy in mathematics, Pascal had mastered Euclid's Elements by the age of 12. Pascal invented and sold the first calculating machine (1645).

Wolfgang was the greatest musical child prodigy who ever lived. He began composing minuets at the age of 5 and symphonies at 9.

Beethoven's own talent was such that at the age of 12 he was already an assistant to the organist Christian Gottlob Neefe, with whom he studied.

Sarah Caldwell, born Maryville, Mo., Mar. 6, 1924, is a conductor and producer. A child prodigy in both mathematics and music, before reaching the age of ten.



:cute:

[Al-Uqul]

Concerning Why The Secluded imam doesn’t appear now :

1. A very easy answer would be: This is Allah's Will. His Will is based on His infinite wisdom. The appearance of Imam al-Mahdi solely depends on the decision of Allah. He knows best how to act. The question might be as naive as asking: Why some people are black and some are white? Why some are beautiful while others are not? This is Allah's decree.

2. A better answer (which also answers why some are beautiful and others are not, etc.) would be: IT IS A TEST. Allah could send all people to paradise directly. But He didn't, because He wanted to TEST us. (The test of Allah is actually a test that proves the facts for ourselves as witness, otherwise Allah has the foreknowledge of everything). Only those who are obedient to Allah deserve paradise. Now, Allah is testing us that how we react in the sinful environment. If somebody preserve himself in today's world has much more reward than if he does that at the time when Imam al-Mahdi appears, because at that time the environment will be absolutely healthy and it will be much easier to preserve oneself. This was just one aspect, however. Remember that ONLY Imam al-Mahdi will have an opportunity to conquer the whole world. Even our Prophet (PBUH&HF) could not do that. So the difficult test was for all era and was not just for us.

3. Imam al-Mahdi (AS) will come as soon as people become ready for him. People throughout the history were NEVER ready. They killed prophets, and Imams one after the other. However Allah continued to send prophets till He finally sent Prophet Muhammad who brought the last message at the time when the evolution of the mind of human being reached its maturity, and thus Allah provided them with the most complete and final religion. After that there was no need to send a new message. Thus He sent Guides (Imams) who preserved and explained the message during the time of tribulation, for people. They also did that, and we are proud that we have had Imams like Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (AS) who explained all aspects of Jurisprudence, etc. He had a golden opportunity of teaching during the clashes between the Umayad and the Abbasids. During that short period when the tyrants of both sides were busy with each other, the Imam was teaching Jurisprudence and theology in classes with as much as 5000 students. (No need to mention that Abu Hanifa was one of his students). Now the time is for action. But unfortunately the majority of people were/are reluctant to follow the right path, and instead, they opposed and killed the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt, and treated them in the same way that their ancestors treated the prophets. (Even Prophet Muhammad said: "No Prophet was ever annoyed as much as me"). The situation will continue till such time when people REALIZE that they need a divinely appointed Imam who rule over them since they can't solve their problems by themselves. When this happens universally, and when people BECOME FRUSTRATED AND DISAPPOINTED from any type of "ism" (way of life, ideology), and when all raise their hands for help, then people are then ready for him. They will not kill him like they did with the others, nor do they treat him unjustly. They will rather accept him. Of course, this will not happen till people of the word undergo much heavier afflictions, world-wide wars, mass destructions by satanic powers (such as Dajjal and Sufyani) which are not difficult to foresee in a near future.

4. Imam al-Mahdi will come when all types of ideologies are tested and they fail. At that time people will understand that they do not have any more solution and they will accept the solution of Imam al-Mahdi easily. For instance, look at communism which came to practice in Russia 100 years ago. People of the world at that time thought that this would be the best way of life which guarantees the prosperity of mankind. But to their surprise, it crashed recently from within itself showing that this solution is failed in practice. Now some people think that Capitalism may solve their problems completely. This system is also about to crash, because the whole system is based on interest (Riba). The situation has reached to the point that people of the USA have the heaviest debt in the world. The studies even show that People here will never be able to pay their debt in full. And this was just from economy point of view. People also suffer from other type of corruption, lust, and lack of spiritualities, etc. Such system is subject to crash sooner or later, one way or another. And when all type of ways of life showed their deficiency IN PRACTICE, people will, then, HONOR THE TRUTH

[Al-Uqul]

Also we Cannot See Malaika(angels)Jinn or allah(SWT)Yet Still We should beleive in them
shaytan and Demons are invisible too............


We should simarly follow Imam Al-Mastoor(hidden imam)

[Al-Uqul]

We as Believing Muslims, believe Allah when He states in the Quran that Satan, the accursed, is still alive even though he was born before Adam and that he watches us from where we CANNOT SEE him by the leave of Allah!!!

I Remember Hearing a Story That Sahl al-Khurasani Came To The 5th imam jafar Al sadiq and Asked O son of the Messenger
of Allah!

You are of the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt. What prevents you from
getting your right (i.e., the rule) while you find more than one
hundred thousand Shi'a who are ready to fight for you?" The Imam (AS)
asked him to sit down, and then ordered to turn on the oven that was
in the house. After the oven became very hot and turned red, the Imam
(AS) said: "O Khurasani step into the oven and sit in it."
The

Khurasani said: "My master, O son of the Messenger of Allah! Do not
punish me by fire and make it easy for me." At this time, Harun al-
Makki (RA) entered the room, and after the greetings exchanged, the
Imam (AS) told him to put down his shoes and to sit down inside the
oven. He did so and the Imam (AS) started talking to Sahl about
Khurasan as if nothing has happened.

After some time, the Imam (AS)
said: "O Khurasani stand up and look inside the oven." Sahl looked
into the oven and saw Harun sitting cross-legged inside the fire. Then
Imam al-Sadiq (AS) asked Harun to come out of oven and he came out
healthy with no burn or injury. At this time, the Imam (AS) asked
Sahl: "How many individuals do you know in Khurasan like this man?"

Sahl replied: "By Allah, not even one." The Imam (AS) confirmed his
saying and said, "We do not rise at this time when we do not even have
five helpers (like him). We know better about the proper time." (al-
Bihar, v47, p123, Hadith #172; also in Manaqib by Ibn Shahr Ashub)

[Al-Uqul]

Moreover, scientifically speaking, there are no objections whatsoever to the extended life span assertion. A group of scientists conducted a series of experiments at the Rockefeller Institute in New York in 1912 on certain "parts" of plants, animals, and humans. These scientists included Dr. Alex Carl, Dr. Jack Lope, and Dr. Warren Lewis and his wife, among others. Among the experiments conducted was one that directly treated the nerves, muscles, hearts, skin, and kidneys of human beings. These organs were not connected to a human body; they were independent organs that were perhaps donated for the experiment. It was concluded by the scientists that these "parts or organs" CAN continue to live almost indefinitely as long as they are nourished properly, and as long as they are shielded from external negative interactions like microbes and other obstacles that might inhibit the growth of these organs; furthermore, the assertion was made that the cells would continue to grow normally under the above conditions, and that the growth is directly related to the nourishment provided. Again, aging had no effect on these organs, and they grew every year without any signs of deterioration. The scientists concluded that these organs will continue to grow as long as the patience of the scientists themselves is not exhausted, causing them to abandon the nourishment process.

[BrAiKi]

Salam Im a Musta3ali Ismaili shia

If beleivng in imam is obligatory for Jannah then We Win you lose

and if it is not and then we win aswel because it will be no diffrent then us beleiving in Santa claus or easter bunny(though hidden imam is reality)

So let me get this straight..
A person will go to Hell no matter how much he prays, fasts, and does all the pillars of Islam. Just because he doesn't believe in a person who's immortal, hid when he was a child and is not willing to show himself, a person who's not even mentioned in the Holy Quraan given the importance he has?

Do you believe that Allah is Just or not?

[BrAiKi]

Also we Cannot See Malaika(angels)Jinn or allah(SWT)Yet Still We should beleive in them
shaytan and Demons are invisible too............


We should simarly follow Imam Al-Mastoor(hidden imam)

But these are not human beings, while Imam al mahdi is a human being, unless you believe otherwise.

[BrAiKi]

2. A better answer (which also answers why some are beautiful and others are not, etc.) would be: IT IS A TEST. Allah could send all people to paradise directly. But He didn't, because He wanted to TEST us. (The test of Allah is actually a test that proves the facts for ourselves as witness, otherwise Allah has the foreknowledge of everything). Only those who are obedient to Allah deserve paradise. Now, Allah is testing us that how we react in the sinful environment. If somebody preserve himself in today's world has much more reward than if he does that at the time when Imam al-Mahdi appears, because at that time the environment will be absolutely healthy and it will be much easier to preserve oneself. This was just one aspect, however. Remember that ONLY Imam al-Mahdi will have an opportunity to conquer the whole world. Even our Prophet (PBUH&HF) could not do that. So the difficult test was for all era and was not just for us.

Now this is an interesting one. What I understand from that is Imam Al Mahdi is better than Prophet Mohammed?

[BrAiKi]

One last question..
Where is Khurasaan?

[El Rey]

Aba Thar brought verses about the prophet Issa PBUH and you're bringing about prophet Yahya PBUH hmm and you compare a hidden man with the angels? I mean man are you kedding?


We as Believing Muslims, believe Allah when He states in the Quran that Satan, the accursed, is still alive even though he was born before Adam and that he watches us from where we CANNOT SEE him by the leave of Allah!!!

I Remember Hearing a Story That Sahl al-Khurasani Came To The 5th imam jafar Al sadiq and Asked O son of the Messenger
of Allah!

You are of the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt. What prevents you from
getting your right (i.e., the rule) while you find more than one
hundred thousand Shi'a who are ready to fight for you?" The Imam (AS)
asked him to sit down, and then ordered to turn on the oven that was
in the house. After the oven became very hot and turned red, the Imam
(AS) said: "O Khurasani step into the oven and sit in it."
The

Khurasani said: "My master, O son of the Messenger of Allah! Do not
punish me by fire and make it easy for me." At this time, Harun al-
Makki (RA) entered the room, and after the greetings exchanged, the
Imam (AS) told him to put down his shoes and to sit down inside the
oven. He did so and the Imam (AS) started talking to Sahl about
Khurasan as if nothing has happened.

After some time, the Imam (AS)
said: "O Khurasani stand up and look inside the oven." Sahl looked
into the oven and saw Harun sitting cross-legged inside the fire. Then
Imam al-Sadiq (AS) asked Harun to come out of oven and he came out
healthy with no burn or injury. At this time, the Imam (AS) asked
Sahl: "How many individuals do you know in Khurasan like this man?"

Sahl replied: "By Allah, not even one." The Imam (AS) confirmed his
saying and said, "We do not rise at this time when we do not even have
five helpers (like him). We know better about the proper time." (al-
Bihar, v47, p123, Hadith #172; also in Manaqib by Ibn Shahr Ashub)

Don't tell me you believe this story and don't bring me the verse about prophet Ibrahim PBUH when Allah saved him from the fire.

Braiki khurasan is in Iran. Does this tell something? :D

[ghalia]

"
Allah, who brought prophet hood to an end with Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), decreed that he should be followed by his vicegerents who would carry out the task of leadership and succession after the termination of Prophethood. These are the twelve Imams, whose number was textually fixed by the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) in a number of authentic traditions* which are unanimously accepted by the Muslims."

Imam Ali bin Abi Talib - al-Murtadha (AS)
Imam Hassan bin Ali - al-Mujtaba (AS)
Imam Hussain bin Ali - al-Shaheed (AS)
Imam Ali bin Hussain - al-Sajjad (AS)
Imam Muhammad bin Ali - al-Baqir (AS)
Imam Jaffer bin Muhammad (AS) - al-Sadiq (AS)
Imam Musa bin Jaffer - al-Kadhim (AS)
Imam Ali bin Musa - al-Ridha (AS)
Imam Muhammad bin Ali - al-Taqi (AS)
Imam Ali bin Muhammad- al-Naqi (AS)
Imam Hassan bin Ali- al-Askari (AS)
Imam Muhammad bin Hassan- al-Mahdi (AS)
(May peace be upon Muhammad (S.A.W.) and His Vicegerents (A.S.)


Imam Al-Mahdi, is still living and will appear before the end of time..


Imam Ali narrates that Prophet Muhammad (pbuthem both) said: Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression.


Prophet Muhammad said: The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima. (Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)


Rasullah said: A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them. (Sahih Muslim)

No one can fully understand the reason for the occultation of Imam Mahdi (ajtf) but some explainations bought forward are:

1. The benefit of being tested and purified, this is a test for the beleiver.
2. The benefit of being relieved from having to pay allegiance to unjust rulers.
3. The benefit of being immune from murder. "

( anyway , ill post more details l8tr, its really late here )

[ns8t]

what is age of mahdi the twelve imam? and while he is alive and hiding how is his medical concerns addressed?

[BrAiKi]

And I thought the Holy Quraan clearly states that the message of islam is completed during the days of Prophet Mohammed.

[shark307]

"
Allah, who brought prophet hood to an end with Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), decreed that he should be followed by his vicegerents who would carry out the task of leadership and succession after the termination of Prophethood. These are the twelve Imams, whose number was textually fixed by the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) in a number of authentic traditions* which are unanimously accepted by the Muslims."

Imam Ali bin Abi Talib - al-Murtadha (AS)
Imam Hassan bin Ali - al-Mujtaba (AS)
Imam Hussain bin Ali - al-Shaheed (AS)
Imam Ali bin Hussain - al-Sajjad (AS)
Imam Muhammad bin Ali - al-Baqir (AS)
Imam Jaffer bin Muhammad (AS) - al-Sadiq (AS)
Imam Musa bin Jaffer - al-Kadhim (AS)
Imam Ali bin Musa - al-Ridha (AS)
Imam Muhammad bin Ali - al-Taqi (AS)
Imam Ali bin Muhammad- al-Naqi (AS)
Imam Hassan bin Ali- al-Askari (AS)
Imam Muhammad bin Hassan- al-Mahdi (AS)
(May peace be upon Muhammad (S.A.W.) and His Vicegerents (A.S.)


Imam Al-Mahdi, is still living and will appear before the end of time..


Imam Ali narrates that Prophet Muhammad (pbuthem both) said: Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression.


Prophet Muhammad said: The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima. (Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)


Rasullah said: A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them. (Sahih Muslim)

No one can fully understand the reason for the occultation of Imam Mahdi (ajtf) but some explainations bought forward are:

1. The benefit of being tested and purified, this is a test for the beleiver.
2. The benefit of being relieved from having to pay allegiance to unjust rulers.
3. The benefit of being immune from murder. "

( anyway , ill post more details l8tr, its really late here )


What I dont understand is that God gave us many examples and evidences, yet we dont want to open our eyes and heart, for example people who are asking about that how come Al Mahdi is alive? well God already gave you examples such as Prophet Ilyas and Al Kidr, so the question should be how come all the 3 are alive not just how come Al Mahdi is alive, they got knowledge Inspired by God through different channels, like how Mary and Mother of Moses were Inspired.

When it comes to that Imam Ali bin Abi Talib was gave some Ghayb knowledge, they start calling Shia Mushrik, Mughali, over Exaggeration, yet when Muslim bin Hajjaj tells us that Huthayfa bin Al Yamman knows al Gayb or Amro bin Aktab or any companion, thats totally OK, if Omar wrestles the Jin its ok nothing is wrong with that. Y? because its not Ahl Al Bait so its OK! when it comes to Ahl Al Bait it should be wrong or over exaggeration.

When evidences are presented, then couple of people say yeah we're praying, fasting so its ok, well guess what? Iblees was also worshipping God and was a high level worshipper, he just did one thing, only one thing, rejecting Prophet Adam, God didnt accept all his amal just for one thing which was rejecting a holy character.

[BrAiKi]

You're mixing up stuff Shark, nobody doesn't like ahl al bait, we all love them and pray upon them in every single prayer.
But when it reaches al mughalah (exaggeration) that is not acceptable.
I agree there are stories that claim miracles (or supernatural powers) that were performed by the companions of Prophet Mohammed. But most of these if not all are REJECTED because they simply do not make any sense and are considered mughalah (exaggeration).

Exaggeration in the twelvers Shia reached a level of comparing Al Mahdi to Prophet Mohammed, or even giving him powers or authorities that were not given to Prophet Mohammed.

So same question goes again, is Al Mahdi better than Prophet Mohammed? then whats the point of having Prophet Mohammed as the last and the best of the prophets?

Iblees's story is irrelevant and is not much of an example. Iblees knew the truth yet he rejected an order from God.
We on the other hand, do not have the mahdi mentioned in the Holy Quraan, given how important he is. Therefore the rejection is not the same.

If I was born and raised being told that a man is hiding in my closet, then I would grow up with it and it would make sense to me. Even when I open my closet and see that nobody is there.

[Manta]

And I thought the Holy Quraan clearly states that the message of islam is completed during the days of Prophet Mohammed.:cool:I second that as well....:cool:

[shark307]

You're mixing up stuff Shark, nobody doesn't like ahl al bait, we all love them and pray upon them in every single prayer.
But when it reaches al mughalah (exaggeration) that is not acceptable.
I agree there are stories that claim miracles (or supernatural powers) that were performed by the companions of Prophet Mohammed. But most of these if not all are REJECTED because they simply do not make any sense and are considered mughalah (exaggeration).

Exaggeration in the twelvers Shia reached a level of comparing Al Mahdi to Prophet Mohammed, or even giving him powers or authorities that were not given to Prophet Mohammed.

So same question goes again, is Al Mahdi better than Prophet Mohammed? then whats the point of having Prophet Mohammed as the last and the best of the prophets?

Iblees's story is irrelevant and is not much of an example. Iblees knew the truth yet he rejected an order from God.
We on the other hand, do not have the mahdi mentioned in the Holy Quraan, given how important he is. Therefore the rejection is not the same.

If I was born and raised being told that a man is hiding in my closet, then I would grow up with it and it would make sense to me. Even when I open my closet and see that nobody is there.

I dont think any of the Shia says that Imam Mahdi is better than the prophet, you have explained Imam Mahdi's Role as being better (which not even a single Shia believe), for example Prophet Noah had a much longer age than Prophet Mohamad PBUH, that ofcourse doesnt means he is better, another example Imam Hussain's Grandfather is better than the Prophet's grandfather, that doesnt says Imam Hussain is better. Having a different or unique role doesnt gives a result that one is better than another its just a different role. But lets look at the other side, Abu Bakr and Omar correcting the Prophet PBUH like for example the story of the woman hitting drums then abu bakr enters and says mazamir shaytan in Prophet's house, this is what I call saying abu Bakr is better than prophet, or that Jibril comes supporting Omar's Idea instead of the Prophet's, or that Iblees runs away when he see's Omar, yet the Prophet la samah allah shaytan throws words in his ears or has been black magiced. Be honest and say which one is worse, correcting the Prophet and what I have mentioned? or that the Prophet has different roles than other Prophets and Imams?

the point where Iblees rejected Prophet Adam, ofcourse if there was no proof then logically God is mercy and will forgive. Same thing bout Imam Mahdi and other Imams, if there was no evidence presented to u well God is mercy and Inshallah forgives, but there were evidences from Quran and Hadiths that cannot be rejected, well then its like Iblees's situation rejecting the truth and he knows its the truth.

Last point you've mentioned raised being told that there is a hidden Imam, werent u raised and told that there is Al Kidr and Prophet Ilyas will reappear too? or that Al Dajjal can have heaven on one hand and hell on one hand who represents evilness, but Imam Mahdi who represents the right path cannot have that because that would be over exaggurating for the right side, but for evil no its ok Dajjal is evil and can have these type of powers, God gave al Dajjal Special power is logical and didnt give Al Mahdi cuz its illogical to give? Give me a break!

[BrAiKi]

You said it yourself. PROPHET Noah lived more than PROPHET mohammed (PBUH).
Different prophets have different abilities as per the Holy Quraan. That's nothing new.
But do not compare it with Al Mahdi who is not even mentioned in the Holy Quraan regardless of how big his role is.


I was born and raised as an Ibathi and Ibathis do not even believe (or have a say on) the coming back of the Messiah/Alkhudr/Iliyas nor Al Dajjal. Therefore I don't really have that feeling of having the Messiah coming back, not as much as I'd love to.
Actually as far as I remember, I thought it's the Bible that mentions something about an Iliyas (Eliah in the Bible I believe).

So you say that there are evidences from the Holy Quraan and Hadeeth, putting Hadiths aside, please quote me the verse that clearly mentions the coming of Al Mahdi, that he will overrule the world and I will convert to become a twelver Shia at once!

PS: I want verses from the Holy Quraan not from the Mus`haf of Fatima (AS)

[Dark Project]

Aba Thar , Just for my curiosity what percantage do Shia reprsent in Islam ?

[shark307]

You said it yourself. PROPHET Noah lived more than PROPHET mohammed (PBUH).
Different prophets have different abilities as per the Holy Quraan. That's nothing new.
But do not compare it with Al Mahdi who is not even mentioned in the Holy Quraan regardless of how big his role is.


I was born and raised as an Ibathi and Ibathis do not even believe (or have a say on) the coming back of the Messiah/Alkhudr/Iliyas nor Al Dajjal. Therefore I don't really have that feeling of having the Messiah coming back, not as much as I'd love to.
Actually as far as I remember, I thought it's the Bible that mentions something about an Iliyas (Eliah in the Bible I believe).

So you say that there are evidences from the Holy Quraan and Hadeeth, putting Hadiths aside, please quote me the verse that clearly mentions the coming of Al Mahdi, that he will overrule the world and I will convert to become a twelver Shia at once!

PS: I want verses from the Holy Quraan not from the Mus`haf of Fatima (AS)

Are you sure that everything is mentioned in the Quran? isnt there a verse that says whatever the Prophet gives you take it, and whatever ordered you not to do then dont do? where did this rule come from that every part of religion comes from Quran? who created this rule? I think only Wahabism created this rule which came out of no where and no proof. If you want everything from Quran, then try to bring how many Raka of each prayer from the Quran? Can you? Can you bring Haj preforming details from Quran Only? So this rule of whoever created it of that all religion should be taken from Quran is wrong, even the Quran says you should take from the Prophet PBUH. Hence this concludes that if the Prophet mentions anything bout Imam Mehdi or Al Kidr or Cursed Al Dajjal by qualified hadiths through its roots and hadiths regulations, then no one has the right to deny the hadith just because it doesnt matches his taste. So no we can never put hadiths on a side, never ever, not all Quran verses doesnt needs explainations. Quran it self says that there are ayat Muhkama and Mutashabah, and that there is Taweel for verses and no one knows this Taweel except God and Rasikhun in Ilm. Dont tell me we are the Rasikhun in Ilm? I am sure we are not. So we should forget the idea of having the Quran without explaination, that cannot be, and the Quran refuses it.

And why not to mention Imam Mehdi having such roles? Wasnt Al Kidr the one who showed the 3 well known by all lessons to Prophet Moses? Did the muslims agree on that Al Kidr is a Prophet? Answer is No, big group of Muslims went that he is Waliy. And if you're not convinced bout Al Mahdi Role, what to do if Sunna and Shia Qualified Books gave him a big role such as distributing peace, adl, qist, and rightness and removes all type of dhulm and jawr. This is mentioned in Sunni books which was told by the Prophet according to the Sunni books and also Shia. So what can we do if its mentioned in many hadiths from qualified books? What can we do if its mentioned that the Prophet said that Al Mahdi will have a big role? if it doesnt matches our taste that means we have to deny it? thats the solution?

The point that you stated that Imam Mehdi not being mentioned in the Quran, Are you sure? not necessary stating by name is the only way Quran points to characters, thats not true. Dont u say that Abu Bakr is mentioned in Ayat Al Ghar? was his name mentioned? no, it mentioned him in signs as you believe. Imam Ali and Imam Al Mehdi were mentioned by signs too, even though some group think that there is an aya or 2. Any how the signs ayat are alot actually. Examples:

Siru Fiha Ayaman Wa Layali Aminin. (bottom line of hadith and not exact)Imam Sadiq asked Abu Hanifa: Where is this place Siru Fiha Ayaman Wa Layali Aminin? Abu Hanfi said its between Makka and Madina, Imam Sadiq replied so why are there Haji's when they go to Haj they get robbed between Makka and Madina? is it safa between Makka and Madina? Then Imam Sadiq said this is our country of Imam Mehdi. Think between you and your self, where is this place Siru fiha Ayaman Wa Layali Aminin? where?

More Examples: the ayyat that already have been posted by the guyz in this thread of that the Prophet is munthir and every Qawm should have a Hadi. The Aya of when everyone is called by his Imam in day of judgement.

another aya: Wa Ashraqat Al Ardh Bi Noor Ahlilha.

Wa Laqad katabna fil zabour min ba3d al thikr An Al Ardh Yarith ha 3ibadiya Al Salihin.

Huwa Allathi Arsal Rasulahu Bil Huda Wa Deen Al Haq Li Yudh Hirahu Ala Al Deen Kulih Wa Law Karih Al Mushrikun.
Does Islam now have the highest population in its religion? the answer is Not yet, but a day will come In Sha Allah.


Nabi Ilyas mentioned in the Quran is Fil Aakhirin:

((وَإِنَّ إِلْياسَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ * إِذْ قالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَلا تَتَّقُونَ * أَتَدْعُونَ بَعْلاً وَتَذَرُونَ أَحْسَنَ الْخالِقِينَ * اللَّهَ رَبَّكُمْ وَرَبَّ آبائِكُمُ الأَْوَّلِينَ * فَكَذَّبُوهُ فَإِنَّهُمْ لَمُحْضَرُونَ * إِلاَّ عِبادَ اللَّهِ الْمُخْلَصِينَ * وَتَرَكْنا عَلَيْهِ فِي الآْخِرِينَ * سَلامٌ عَلى إِلْ‏ياسِينَ * إِنَّا كَذلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ * إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ))

Q Again: Is Omar better than the Prophet when Satan runs away from Omar, but la samah allah throws words on prophet ears and black magic?

[BrAiKi]

Abu Baker being the companion of Prophet Mohammed who is mentioned as "sahibihi" (his companion) is not a person who we almost idolize, therefore him being mentioned in the Holy Quraan by signs is not really a huge matter. Some of you guys believe that it's not him who was mentioned. It doesn't matter if it's him or not because he's not a person who will lead the world one day and God would give him what he never gave Prophet Mohammed, and if a person doesnt believe that "sahibihi" refers to abu baker, that doesn't make him a better or a worse muslim.
Your Mahdi on the other hand has it all. So why is he not mentioned? Pin point in the verses you provided that mention him. Because None of the verses mention him.

Your game of comparison is really illogical. What proves that a person have all the abilities if a Prophet had an ability that is mentioned in the Quraan?
Regarding Al Khudhur; his name is not mentioned in the Holy Quraan, that's why it is not a sure thing that his name is Khudhur, neither the fact that he was a prophet or not. Scholars have different says in it.
And, most importantly, whether his name was al khudhur or not, was a prophet or not, believing that or not does not make a muslim a better muslim.
Your mahdi, on the other hand, is an Imam and according to you guys whoever doesn't believe in him will burn in Hell no matter how much he prays and fasts and does all the Pillars of Islam. While a believer in al Mahdi will go to heaven even if he doesn't do the pillars of Islam and is not a good person at ALL.

Allah is Just, but the kind of belief that I mentioned above is not fair at all, in case it was true.


On a side note:
What is the significance of having the message of Islam being complete at the days of Prophet Mohammed and him being the last prophet if the 12 Imams are still fit into the picture?
Unless you believe that Islam was not complete during the days of Prophet mohammed.

[BrAiKi]

Q Again: Is Omar better than the Prophet when Satan runs away from Omar, but la samah allah throws words on prophet ears and black magic?
No he is not, that is why such stories are rejected by many of the scholars.

Do you believe that Satan threw words into the ears of Prophet Mohammed? Because I do not.


So let me get you straight. Wa tarakna 3aleehi fil 'akhereen means that he will be back at the end of times? Is that what you believe?

[BrAiKi]

another aya: Wa Ashraqat Al Ardh Bi Noor Ahlilha.

Now this is one interesting Ayah. Is it from Mus`haf of Fatima (AS) or is it from The Holy Quraan?
If it's from Mus`haf Fatima, then my apologies I don't accept it because it a fabricated false book.

If it's from the Holy Quraan then please Quote it for me with the reference.

[Srour King]

I prefer using my logic.There is only one GOD and MUHAMMAD is his last messenger.The rest is a collection of the views of followers like me.

[BrAiKi]

^ Thank you, and that's exactly my point, as simple as that.

[shark307]

Abu Baker being the companion of Prophet Mohammed who is mentioned as "sahibihi" (his companion) is not a person who we almost idolize, therefore him being mentioned in the Holy Quraan by signs is not really a huge matter. Some of you guys believe that it's not him who was mentioned. It doesn't matter if it's him or not because he's not a person who will lead the world one day and God would give him what he never gave Prophet Mohammed, and if a person doesnt believe that "sahibihi" refers to abu baker, that doesn't make him a better or a worse muslim.
Your Mahdi on the other hand has it all. So why is he not mentioned? Pin point in the verses you provided that mention him. Because None of the verses mention him.

Your game of comparison is really illogical. What proves that a person have all the abilities if a Prophet had an ability that is mentioned in the Quraan?
Regarding Al Khudhur; his name is not mentioned in the Holy Quraan, that's why it is not a sure thing that his name is Khudhur, neither the fact that he was a prophet or not. Scholars have different says in it.
And, most importantly, whether his name was al khudhur or not, was a prophet or not, believing that or not does not make a muslim a better muslim.
Your mahdi, on the other hand, is an Imam and according to you guys whoever doesn't believe in him will burn in Hell no matter how much he prays and fasts and does all the Pillars of Islam. While a believer in al Mahdi will go to heaven even if he doesn't do the pillars of Islam and is not a good person at ALL.

Allah is Just, but the kind of belief that I mentioned above is not fair at all, in case it was true.


On a side note:
What is the significance of having the message of Islam being complete at the days of Prophet Mohammed and him being the last prophet if the 12 Imams are still fit into the picture?
Unless you believe that Islam was not complete during the days of Prophet mohammed.

Not every person goes to hell, no our theory doesnt matches the Wahabism by saying all muslims in hell except them, we believe a person who has seen evidences and proves and knows that its proves yet purposley denies the proves "Ju7ood", this person deseves to be punished, but a person who tried his best and couldnt reach the truth, this person is logivcal considered innocent, or a person who is not well educated hence his knowledge wouldnt help him reach the truth.

If you think that Mushaf Fatima is our Quran as most of Wahabi's try to advertise it this way, then bring us a "Hard Copy" of Mushaf Fatima from Any Plenty Shia Mosques, or any Shia House, or any Shia Book Shop? Bring a hard copy if you can, dont tell me all the mosques and houses are empty of it, comeon? is that true? no hard copies in Shia Mosques or houses?

or if you think that its not logical for an angel to communicate with Fatima Al Zahra, then Mohamad bin Ismail Al Bukhari and Muslim bin Hajjaj say that Omar was talked by angels!

If you dont believe in 12 Imams or hadith al ghadeer, then ask your self why hadith al ghadir is mentioned in many books which cannot be rejected because as I understand over 6,000 companion witnessed this hadith? why is the hadith of 12 Imams is mentioned in many books?

If you'll say again that we just have to follow the Quran, I dont want to remind you that the Quran says:

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ

I dont want to remind you also that the prayers Raka are not mentioned?

P.S. it's kinda weird how you are easily rejecting Bukhari and Muslim Books just because it doesnt matches your taste. You dont believe in Bukhari and Muslim Books all of it or what?

[BrAiKi]

Before we move on to the next points, I'd like you to end some of the points we had before, without having to use the principle of 'taqqiya':

you skipped this one:

another aya: Wa Ashraqat Al Ardh Bi Noor Ahlilha.
please provide the verse.

Plus, do you believe that the message of Islam was incomplete during the days of Prophet Mohammed?

and finally:

So let me get you straight. Wa tarakna 3aleehi fil 'akhereen means that he will be back at the end of times? Is that what you believe?

[shark307]

Before we move on to the next points, I'd like you to end some of the points we had before, without having to use the principle of 'taqqiya':

you skipped this one:

please provide the verse.

Plus, do you believe that the message of Islam was incomplete during the days of Prophet Mohammed?

and finally:

Noor Rabiha I meant, typing mistake and thanks anyways. Al Zmr 69.

about the Taqiya you're talking bout, Muslim and Bukhari say that the Prophet did it. Other scholars say that Ibn Abbas talked about Taqqiya. Other sunni scholars in their qualified books say that Ammar bin Yasir has used Taqqiya with mushrikin and mentioned Hubbal's name. There is a quran verse where there was a Mumin from Aal Fir3on Yaktum Imanah Hyding his faith to protect him self from getting killed. Taqqiya is not faking your religion in a dicussion as what you think, Taqqiya is protecting your self from getting killed, and there are many examples.

Yes we and Sunni Qualified Books believe that the religion was completed after the Prophet announced hadith Al Ghadir and the 12 Imams after coming back from the last haj.

about the Quran verse, if i mention a tafseer or hadith, you will say I dont believe in hadith, I just believe in Quran, I believe that Maghrib prayers is 3 Rakaa through Quran, so would it matter to you if I mention it?

I am waiting for the hard copy of Mushaf Fatima.

[BrAiKi]

I never claimed to have the Mushaf of Fatima, So why you ask me for the Mus`haf of Fatima while it's you guys who claim of it's existence and that Al Mahdi has it and he will be back with it?
Having said that, this questions whether Islam's message was complete or not during the time of Prophet Mohammed. So my question regarding this, how could Islam be complete while Mahdi is hiding with the Mus'haf of Fatima?

I don't even care what's written on it and for the sake of my title I wouldn't want to share what I really think of it. Me mentioning Mus`haf of Fatima is just for the purpose of you acknowledging its existence, and that's more than enough for me. And I gotta give it to you, you're actually the first Shia who admits its existence to me.

The reason why I mentioned the Mabdaa' of Taqqiya is because your brethren always use it. Believe it or not, I know many Shia who denied the existence of Mus'haf of Fatima, and you may want to refer to the story that I had with my She`i friend as a good example of the version of Taqqiya that I've experienced from our Shia brothers.

You mentioned the story of Iliyas in the Holy Quraan being referred to as "wa tarakna 'aleehi fil 'akhereen" as a proof to support that Iliyas is coming back at the end of times. Is this correct or not?

Regarding the Sahihs; The only book that is not flawed and has all the truths in it is the Holy Quraan and no book can be compared to its truthfulness and correctness, I believe we both agree on this. Plus it's the only common book that we share with our Shia brothers, therefore it's the only common ground that we have.

I am not saying that Sunna/Ibathis are flawless sections. Nope, they all got their parts where men interfered with the ahkaam, but that all falls under the Fiqh, very slight differences in 'aqeeda. Whereas the twelvers Shia section has a totally different 'aqeeda given the 12 Imams and Mus`haf of Fatima and Al Mahdi. And God knows what else is there that we haven't tackled yet.

Regarding the Wahabis, as much as I dislike their teachings, but they do not label you a Kaffir unless you assign partners to God, Pray to other than God, or claim that the Throne of God is @ the Imam's feet! Astaghfur Allah! What makes a Muslim remain a muslim if he claims or believes that the Throne of God is at the 12 Imams' feet? Idolizing a mere man/men is blasphemy by definition in Islam!

Whereas for the Twelvers Shia, a Sunni who prays and fasts and does all the Pillars of Islam yet does not believe in the Wilayah will go to Hell and a Shia who is of no good and doesn't do any of the Pillars of Islam yet believes in the Wilaya will go to heaven.

[Dark Project]

Aba Thar , Just for my curiosity what percantage do Shia reprsent in Islam ?

Helloooooo any one to answer and I heard that you have many sects too !!

[freemind]

Helloooooo any one to answer and I heard that you have many sects too !!

On the whole Muslims comprise of 90% Sunni and 10% Shia's
These are further divided into another infinite sects.

Source (http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islamic_sects.htm)

[shark307]

I never claimed to have the Mushaf of Fatima, So why you ask me for the Mus`haf of Fatima while it's you guys who claim of it's existence and that Al Mahdi has it and he will be back with it?
Having said that, this questions whether Islam's message was complete or not during the time of Prophet Mohammed. So my question regarding this, how could Islam be complete while Mahdi is hiding with the Mus'haf of Fatima?

I don't even care what's written on it and for the sake of my title I wouldn't want to share what I really think of it. Me mentioning Mus`haf of Fatima is just for the purpose of you acknowledging its existence, and that's more than enough for me. And I gotta give it to you, you're actually the first Shia who admits its existence to me.

The reason why I mentioned the Mabdaa' of Taqqiya is because your brethren always use it. Believe it or not, I know many Shia who denied the existence of Mus'haf of Fatima, and you may want to refer to the story that I had with my She`i friend as a good example of the version of Taqqiya that I've experienced from our Shia brothers.

You mentioned the story of Iliyas in the Holy Quraan being referred to as "wa tarakna 'aleehi fil 'akhereen" as a proof to support that Iliyas is coming back at the end of times. Is this correct or not?

Regarding the Sahihs; The only book that is not flawed and has all the truths in it is the Holy Quraan and no book can be compared to its truthfulness and correctness, I believe we both agree on this. Plus it's the only common book that we share with our Shia brothers, therefore it's the only common ground that we have.

I am not saying that Sunna/Ibathis are flawless sections. Nope, they all got their parts where men interfered with the ahkaam, but that all falls under the Fiqh, very slight differences in 'aqeeda. Whereas the twelvers Shia section has a totally different 'aqeeda given the 12 Imams and Mus`haf of Fatima and Al Mahdi. And God knows what else is there that we haven't tackled yet.

Regarding the Wahabis, as much as I dislike their teachings, but they do not label you a Kaffir unless you assign partners to God, Pray to other than God, or claim that the Throne of God is @ the Imam's feet! Astaghfur Allah! What makes a Muslim remain a muslim if he claims or believes that the Throne of God is at the 12 Imams' feet? Idolizing a mere man/men is blasphemy by definition in Islam!

Whereas for the Twelvers Shia, a Sunni who prays and fasts and does all the Pillars of Islam yet does not believe in the Wilayah will go to Hell and a Shia who is of no good and doesn't do any of the Pillars of Islam yet believes in the Wilaya will go to heaven.


Braiki:
If it's from Mus`haf Fatima, then my apologies I don't accept it because it a fabricated false book.

then Braiki goes:
I never claimed to have the Mushaf of Fatima, So why you ask me for the Mus`haf of Fatima


again I'm saying Mushaf Fatima is not a Quran, any bunch of papers is called Mushaf.

واذا الصحف نشرت (http://javascript<b></b>:showAya(81,10))

or you can check Lisan Al Arab Book in google, download it and look up for the same word:

و الـمُصْحَفُ و الـمِصْحَفُ: الـجامع للصُّحُف الـمكتوبة بـين الدَّفَّتَـيْنِ كأَنه أُصْحِفَ، والكسر والفتـح فـيه لغة، قال أَبو عبـيد: تميم تكسرها وقـيس تضمها .

I can write a book and call is Mushaf under my name, and no I'm not the first shia admits it, we dont deny its existence, but non shia claim having it in Mosques or Home, but some people made advertisements (I dont want to mention their names) that Shia's are hyding Mushaf Fatima in their house hehehe.

About the Taqqiya, its either you dont understand, or that you dont want to understand, let me teach you whats Taqqiya:

وقال رجل مؤمن من ال فرعون يكتم ايمانه اتقتلون رجلا ان يقول ربي الله وقد جاءكم بالبينات من ربكم وان يك كاذبا (http://javascript<b></b>:showAya(40,28))فعليه كذبه وان يك صادقا يصبكم بعض الذي يعدكم ان الله لا يهدي من هو مسرف كذاب

^ This is called Taqqiya and God described him as Mumin.

from your qualified books:

عن إبن عبيدة بن محمد بن عمار بن ياسر ، عن أبيه قال : أخذ المشركون عمار بن ياسر فلم يتركوه حتى سب النبي (ص) وذكر آلهتهم بخير ثم تركوه ، فلما أتى رسول الله (ص) قال : ما وراءك قال : شر يا رسول الله ما تركت حتى نلت منك وذكرت آلهتهم بخير قال : كيف تجد قلبك
قال : مطمئن بالإيمان قال : إن عادوا فعد

^ again this is called Taqiya, protecting your self from getting killed, and not what you have purposley or unpurposley understood. If you didnt understand after this then there is no hope for you to understand what is Taqqiya and you can continue like how others continued advertising about shia.

about Quran tafseer, whatever hadith or tafsir you get you always deny it if you dont like it even if the big scholars believe in it.

about the hadith that you mentioned, if you want to play games if posting un qualified hadiths, then I can also post not un qualified but qualified ahadith from qualified books bout what ur saying ashtaghfur allah bout God.

حدثنا : ‏ ‏عمر بن حفص ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏الأعمش ‏ ‏سمعت ‏ ‏أبا صالح ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبي هريرة ‏ ‏(ر) ‏ ‏قال : ‏قال النبي ‏‏(ص) : ‏يقول الله تعالى ‏: ‏أنا عند ظن عبدي بي وأنا معه إذا ذكرني فإن ذكرني في نفسه ذكرته في نفسي ، وإن ذكرني في ملأ ذكرته في ملأ خير منهم وإن تقرب إلي بشبر تقربت إليه ذراعاً وإن تقرب إلي ذراعاً تقربت إليه ‏ ‏باعاً ‏، ‏وإن أتاني يمشي أتيته هرولة

Astaghfur Allah Harwala wal iyath billah?

[shark307]

On the whole Muslims comprise of 90% Sunni and 10% Shia's
These are further divided into another infinite sects.

Source (http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islamic_sects.htm)


http://www.islam4u.com/almojib_show.php?rid=796

[BrAiKi]

Dude, before you go like a lose cannon, seriously, why would I be the one who provides the Mus`haf of Fatima while you're the one who believes in its existence?
Don't you believe that it's hidden with Al Mahdi and he is to come back with it? Yes or No?

I know what is the definition of Taqqiya in Islam, so stop pretending that you don't get the point because I was showing you an example of your brethren's definition of 'Taqqiya'.




about Quran tafseer, whatever hadith or tafsir you get you always deny it if you dont like it even if the big scholars believe in it.

That's not the issue, I asked you a straight question and you avoid to answer, you either admit that you've made a mistake in saying that "wa tarakna 'aleehi fil akhirin" means that he will be back at the end of times OR you may confirm that this is your belief, as my belief is not an issue and has nothing to do with answering that question.

Regarding the Unqualified Hadeeth, If your teachings of saying that the Throne of God is at Imam's feet was weak then it wouldn't be in recorded lectures. You may go ahead and you tube it.
Or you know what, so that you won't be beating around the bush in this issue too, I'll bring up the video for you:
Blasphemy-1
Blasphemy-2
(mind the pool picture in the second video xD)
Now to get this clear, Do you also believe that the Throne of God is at the feet of the Imams?
No need to dodge this question too, a simple Yes/No answer will do :)

Regarding the Hadeeth you mentioned. There is something in Arabic that is called mujaaz, that is figuratively speaking. Just like when the Holy Quraan speaks of the Hand of God, it doesn't necessarily mean that God has hands like human beings do, and where the Hadeeth is obviously coming from.

Now please let's have a constructive discussion without beating around the bush and answer the questions I post regarding your very own belief.

[shark307]

Dude, before you go like a lose cannon, seriously, why would I be the one who provides the Mus`haf of Fatima while you're the one who believes in its existence?
Don't you believe that it's hidden with Al Mahdi and he is to come back with it? Yes or No?

I know what is the definition of Taqqiya in Islam, so stop pretending that you don't get the point because I was showing you an example of your brethren's definition of 'Taqqiya'.




That's not the issue, I asked you a straight question and you avoid to answer, you either admit that you've made a mistake in saying that "wa tarakna 'aleehi fil akhirin" means that he will be back at the end of times OR you may confirm that this is your belief, as my belief is not an issue and has nothing to do with answering that question.

Regarding the Unqualified Hadeeth, If your teachings of saying that the Throne of God is at Imam's feet was weak then it wouldn't be in recorded lectures. You may go ahead and you tube it.
Or you know what, so that you won't be beating around the bush in this issue too, I'll bring up the video for you:
Blasphemy-1
Blasphemy-2
(mind the pool picture in the second video xD)
Now to get this clear, Do you also believe that the Throne of God is at the feet of the Imams?
No need to dodge this question too, a simple Yes/No answer will do :)

Regarding the Hadeeth you mentioned. There is something in Arabic that is called mujaaz, that is figuratively speaking. Just like when the Holy Quraan speaks of the Hand of God, it doesn't necessarily mean that God has hands like human beings do, and where the Hadeeth is obviously coming from.

Now please let's have a constructive discussion without beating around the bush and answer the questions I post regarding your very own belief.

Even If I answer the ayaa tafseer, you will easily deny like how you did in the previous posts, whats the point of spending my time on something you will not accept? I'd rather keep it for my self, and I'm not forced to answer you anyway.

about the video posted, first of all I dont agree to be honest with Sheikh Hussain Al Fehaid's Manhaj, and a sheikh or sayed who gives speach is not an evidence, a Sheikh or Sayed makes a search and delivers it in the minbar, If you find it surrounded with evidences and convincing you can take it, if not, why not reject it? No shia claims that whatever is said in the minbar to be considered as an evidence. If you want video of sheikhs giving speahes from here and there, then this video is considered evidence on u, from many sheikhs:





the video link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQOrHSIHkK0


about Ta3beer Majazi, even though you got no proof it was ta3beer majazi, try now to say that this hadith is ta3beer majazi:

حدثنا : ‏ ‏عبد الله بن مسلمة ‏، عن ‏ ‏مالك ، عن ‏ ‏إبن شهاب ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏وأبي عبد الله الأغر ، عن ‏ ‏أبي هريرة ‏ ‏(ر) ‏ ‏أن رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏قال : ينزل ربنا تبارك وتعالى كل ليلة إلى السماء الدنيا حين يبقى ثلث الليل الآخر يقول ‏: ‏من يدعوني فإستجيب له من يسألني فأعطيه من يستغفرني فإغفر له.

I think about Taqqiya my point is done, I have explained it enough, and how its used logically to prevent from getting killed.

[BrAiKi]

Even If I answer the ayaa tafseer, you will easily deny like how you did in the previous posts, whats the point of spending my time on something you will not accept? I'd rather keep it for my self, and I'm not forced to answer you anyway.

lol i didnt push to bring up that ayah with its tafseer in the first place, you willingly shared it. And now when i ask you to confirm you run away. You see, keep living in that denial because when God asks you about it nobody will help you not even the people you idolize.
The second hadith is figuratively speaking too. It doesnt take a genius to tell that. Unless its a non-arabic speaker.
Since you don't really want to spend your time in comfirming what you introduced and keep beating around the bush then I wouldnt waste my time on you and your contradicting thoughts neither.
Have a good day and i hope one day you will be true to yourself and wake youself up from your denial.

[El Rey]

[QUOTE=El Rey;1512652]....

salawaaat :XD:

Great discussion Braiki. I don't have the time to discuss all th epoints in here but I may come later.

My point to shark that Shites exagerate alot in idolizing Ali RAA and his family like Al Hussain. And this is absolutely wrong in Islam and we don't hate them we love those persons for who they're but with limits.

[Manta]

I prefer using my logic.There is only one GOD and MUHAMMAD is his last messenger.The rest is a collection of the views of followers like me.:cool:I second that as well...:cool:

[Filly_Stiffler]

EDITED !!


im coming back later to this thread...

[jack]

Is that guy still hiding in that well?

[shark307]

....

salawaaat :XD:


Great discussion Braiki. I don't have the time to discuss all th epoints in here but I may come later.

My point to shark that Shites exagerate alot in idolizing Ali RAA and his family like Al Hussain. And this is absolutely wrong in Islam and we don't hate them we love those persons for who they're but with limits.


Guess what?! THE CITY EXISTS!! if you have just typed in google.com fatima city in portugal you would have got the results instead of speeding up to post this video, to have unrelated topic, I can post videos too btw:

http://www.freewebs.com/islamic-site/miracles/fatima-city.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1tima,_Portugal
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/portugal/fatima-map

[shark307]

....

salawaaat :XD:


Great discussion Braiki. I don't have the time to discuss all th epoints in here but I may come later.

My point to shark that Shites exagerate alot in idolizing Ali RAA and his family like Al Hussain. And this is absolutely wrong in Islam and we don't hate them we love those persons for who they're but with limits.

and this is a reply of your video by a video, lets c how much do you love Imam Ali

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz9P1CJ5gPo

حدثنا : ‏ ‏قتيبة بن سعيد ‏ ‏ومحمد بن عباد ‏ ‏وتقارباً في اللفظ ‏ ‏قالا ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حاتم وهو إبن إسماعيل ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏بكير بن مسمار ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد بن أبي وقاص ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال : ‏أمر ‏ ‏معاوية بن أبي سفيان ‏ ‏سعداًً ‏، ‏فقال : ما منعك أن تسب ‏ ‏أبا التراب ‏، ‏فقال : أما ما ذكرت ثلاثاًً قالهن له رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏فلن أسبه لأن تكون لي واحدة منهن أحب إلي : من ‏ ‏حمر النعم ‏ سمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يقول له ‏ ‏خلفه ‏ ‏في بعض مغازيه ، فقال له ‏ ‏علي ‏ ‏يا رسول الله ‏ ‏خلفتني ‏ ‏مع النساء والصبيان ، فقال له رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏أما ‏ ‏ترضى أن تكون مني بمنزلة ‏ ‏هارون ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏إلاّ أنه لا نبوة بعدي ، وسمعته يقول يوم ‏ ‏خيبر : ‏لأعطين الراية رجلاًًً يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله ، قال : فتطاولنا لها ، فقال : إدعوا لي ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏فأتي به ‏ ‏أرمد ، ‏فبصق في عينه ودفع الراية إليه ففتح الله عليه ولما نزلت هذه الآية ‏: فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ‏دعا رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏وفاطمة ‏ ‏وحسناًً ‏ ‏وحسيناًًً ‏، ‏فقال : اللهم هؤلاء أهلي


حدثنا : ‏ ‏علي بن محمد ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏أبو معاوية ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏موسى بن مسلم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏إبن سابط وهو عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏سعد بن أبي وقاص ، قال : قدم ‏ ‏معاوية ‏ ‏في بعض حجاته فدخل عليه ‏ ‏سعد ‏ ‏فذكروا ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏فنال منه فغضب ‏ ‏سعد ‏، ‏وقال : تقول هذا لرجل سمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يقول : من كنت ‏ ‏مولاه ‏ ‏فعلي ‏ ‏مولاه ‏ ‏وسمعته يقول : أنت مني بمنزلة ‏ ‏هارون ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏إلاّ أنه لا نبي بعدي ، وسمعته يقول : لأعطين الراية اليوم رجلاًًً يحب الله ورسوله.

[BrAiKi]

^^ Point being is? Please elaborate.

I know this will end up in you avoiding and dodging questions once more, but heck, I will still get into it again.

[BrAiKi]

City of Fatima exists, but does that mean the story is true?
For God's sake. Does that story have any relation to logic?
God gave you brains to use it not to repeat anything you've been brainwashed to say!

[Reluctant]

Assalaamu aleykum BrAiKi. As a convert to Shia Islam, and having studied our ahadeeth, I can say that the "Mushaf Fatima" plays no role in how we view, approach, and practice Islam. Honestly I cannot recall any narration from the imaams which speaks about this mushaf. Not to say such narrations don't exist--however, having studied fiqh, it plays absolutely no role in how the imaams taught Islam.

A much more important and pertinent book to understand is the "Kitaab 'Ali."

This was a book of fiqh that 'Ali ibn Abi Taalib wrote which was dictated to him from the Prophet (pbuh). It contains a lot of fiqh and ahadeeth, and was inherited by the ahl al-bait. Given that it is demonstrable from Sunni ahadeeth that 'Ali ibn Abi Taalib was the most learned of the sahaba in terms of fiqh, and given the ikhtilaaf in the Sunni madhabs concerning fiqh, I feel that access to such a book would be very beneficial. There are only two references to this book in Sunni sources, however, it can be confirmed that Ja'far al-Saadiq had this book. How do we find out the complete contents of this book? Is it lost to history? If we are Sunnis we would have to think so. However, it is referenced many times in Shia ahadeeth and this is one way in which we preserved the sunnah and true Islamic teachings.

Here are the Sunni references:

8761 عبد الرزاق عن بن عيينة عن جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه قال في كتاب علي الجراد والحيتان ذكي

http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B5%D9%86%D9%81_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%86% D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A/%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%86% D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%83

Note, this is Ja'far al-Sadiq, from his father, Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Baqir.

This is the other reference:

أخبرنا سعيد بن سالم عن ابن جريج عن عطاء قال : في كتاب علي رضي الله عنه من لم يجد نعلين ووجد خفين فليلبسهما قلت : أتتيقن بأنه كتاب علي ؟ قال : ما أشك أنه كتابه ؟ قال : وليس فيه فليقطعهما

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=31&ID=1149

Here is an example of a Shia narration about it:

محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن ابن اُذينة عن محمد بن مسلم قال : أقرأني أبو جعفر ( عليه السلام ) ، صحيفة الفرائض ، التي هي إملاء رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) ، وخط علي ( عليه السلام ) بيده ، فقرأت فيها : امرأة ماتت ، وتركت زوجها وأبويها ، فللزوج النصف ثلاثة أسهم ، وللام الثلث (1) سهمان ، وللاب السدس سهم

There are many, many more.

It can be proven from Sunni books that Imam 'Ali had a book of fiqh, and that it was eventually inherited by Ja'far al-Sadiq, from which he narrated and taught fiqh. Given the ikhtilaaf among the Sunnis, and the status of Imaam 'Ali, and the claim that fiqh was written down from the Prophet (pbuh), I feel it would be prudent to know the contents of this book. And to do that, you have to follow Ja'far al-Sadiq...and to know his teachings in-full, you need to be a Shia.

In the Musannafs of Abd al-Razzaq and Ibn Abi Shaybah there are many narrations from Muhammad al-Baqir and Ja'far al-Sadiq, and it is demonstrable that they taught a conception of Islam and fiqh which has been inherited in-full by the Shia today.

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ ، قَالَ : نَا حَاتِمُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ ، عَنْ جَعْفَرٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ , وَمُسْلِمِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ , أَنَّ عَلِيَّ بْنَ حُسَيْنٍ كَانَ يُؤَذِّنُ ، فَإِذَا بَلَغَ حَيَّ عَلَى الْفَلَاحِ ، قَالَ : حَيَّ عَلَى خَيْرِ الْعَمَلِ ، وَيَقُولُ : " هُوَ الْأَذَانُ الْأَوَّلُ

http://www.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?hflag=1&bk_no=96&pid=359126

و هذا حديث من جعفر الصادق الحجة علينا حتى يوم القيامة
و الحمد لله رب العالمين

Wa assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

[BrAiKi]

I was never aware of Kitaab 'Ali, but taking your word for it, I do not see any problem with Kitaab 'Ali since it's all fiqh ruling. As I mentioned above, Fiqh part in all sections are different, because it's all ijtihaad's of scholars that the Prophet himself encouraged Muslims to.
But when it comes to 'Aqeeda part, there should not be an ijtihaad in 'Aqeeda, nothing should be added to 'Aqeeda by Ijtihaad, because that falls under the unknown and we have no say over it, unlike Fiqh, and this is the reason why Sunna and Ibathis have only slight differences in 'Aqeeda.

On the other hand, The Mus`haf of Fatima is basically what the Angel Jibrael used to reveal to Fatima. That Mus'haf somehow has disappeared and will only come back with the coming of Al Mahdi.

Now this raises the questions, is Islam incomplete given that this Mus`haf is missing and will only be complete with the coming back of Al Mahdi? If Yes then that contradicts with the declaration of the Holy Quraan. If not, then what is the significance of this Mus'haf? Why is Al Mahdi holding up to it and will not share it until he comes back to us?

I, as all Sunna (and Ibathis too) respect who the Shia consider the 12 Imams just like we respect all the other sahaaba and tabi'een and tabi' el tabi'een, but idolizing these 12 imams and saying that they are divine, better than the prophets or the Throne of God is at their feet and other things that I don't know just yet is what makes a jealous Muslim on his religion stop such nonesense and say this is wrong! And this is what I am doing here.

As a matter of fact, we believe the 12 Imams themselves would reject such ideologies & beliefs. Just like how we believe that Jesus Christ will reject the belief of making him a God.

[Reluctant]

I, as all Sunna (and Ibathis too) respect who the Shia consider the 12 Imams just like we respect all the other sahaaba and tabi'een and tabi' el tabi'een, but idolizing these 12 imams and saying that they are divine, better than the prophets or the Throne of God is at their feet and other things that I don't know just yet is what makes a jealous Muslim on his religion stop such nonesense and say this is wrong! And this is what I am doing here.


Shia Islam doesn't teach this. The imaams were the most learned scholars of their generations, and were ideally supposed to lead the ummah in religious and political affairs. They were not "divine," astaghfirAllah. Although, they are proofs upon us in how to practice Islam, and they were the most learned scholars, and were appointed by Allah. So, it is incumbent upon us to follow them to know how to practice Islam properly.

3 - أحمد بن محمد ومحمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، عن محمد بن إسماعيل قال: سمعت أبا الحسن (عليه السلام) يقول: الائمة علماء صادقون مفهمون محدثون.

http://www.alhikmeh.com/arabic/mktba/hadith/alkafi01/09.htm

[BrAiKi]

How do you know that? Have you ever been to the Holy Qumm?
that's not what is being preached everyday in Shia lectures Baa7ith.
Some say that Al Hussien is inside the Throne.
Some say that the Imams will Judge people on the judgment day, by the will of God.
Some say that Ali will be the one who judges and decides who goes to hell and heaven.
Some say that the Throne of God is at the Imams feet!
Some say that the Imams control the wind and all nature powers are under their grip.
And the list goes on and on and on..
Finally, the majority if not all say that Al Mahdi is an immortal who is still alive since approx. 400 Hijri and is still hiding.

That doesn't sound like they were just "Honest Scholars, Preachers and Teachers" as Ali's Hadeeth says.
Since you understand a bit of Arabic, I suggest you sit with an honest and I emphasize HONEST Shia who would tell you what they really think of the 12 Imams and what is their level.

[Reluctant]

That doesn't sound like they were just "Honest Scholars, Preachers and Teachers" as Ali's Hadeeth says.
Since you understand a bit of Arabic, I suggest you sit with an honest and I emphasize HONEST Shia who would tell you what they really think of the 12 Imams and what is their level.

The hadeeth I posted is saheeh.

Anyone researching religion knows that you must study the teachings themselves, not contemporary practices, or the words of people without source attribution.

I hate to engage in this game, because this is just so common sense. However, I will furnish some examples. How many Shias follow these teachings?

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: البسوا البياض فإنه أطيب وأطهر وكفنوا فيه موتاكم

No Shia follows this.

كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يكره السواد إلا في ثلاث: الخف والعمامة والكساء

No Shia follows this.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن حماد بن عثمان، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: إن أبي قال لي ذات يوم في مرضه: يابني أدخل اناسا من قريش من أهل المدينة حتى اشهدهم، قال: فأدخلت عليه اناسا منهم فقال: ياجعفر إذا أنا مت فغسلني وكفني وارفع قبري أربع أصابع ورشه بالماء فلما خرجوا قلت: ياأبة لو أمرتني بهذا لصنعته ولم ترد أن أدخل عليك قوما تشهدهم؟ فقال: يابني أردت أن لا تنازع

‎محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن علي بن الحسن بن فضال ، عن محمد بن عبدالله بن زرارة ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن حماد بن عثمان ، عن عبيدالله الحلبي ومحمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : أمرني أبي أن أجعل ارتفاع قبره أربع أصابع مفرجات ، وذكر أن إلرشّ بالماء حسن ، وقال : توضأ إذا أدخلت الميت القبر .

Shias have contradicted this, and defend it today.

So, just study religion from its primary sources...regardless of which religion it is.

[BrAiKi]

Okay, what do the same sources say about Al Mahdi and his attributes?

[BrAiKi]

So to get this straight, are you telling me that the sources of Shia reject the belief of having the 12 Imaams being divine (as in not normal human beings) and that they will judge people in the judgment day and that they have super natural powers and miracles, and that this whole world was created just for the 12 imaams?

If these sources do reject these beliefs then from where did our Shia brothers come up with it? You may help answering that question since you're a convert and I am assuming that you have converted by being convinced from your own researches.

[Reluctant]

Okay, what does the same sources say about Al Mahdi and his attributes?

Honestly, I am not sure. As I said...I approached Shia Islam through a different means...through fiqh. And I see the importance of fiqh in a unique way, which I can expound upon if you wish.

The general belief of Imam al-Mahdi is that he was born, he is now in "al-ghaybah," and that he will return. I don't know that much about it because I see so much evidence for Shia Islam in other ways--such as Ja'far al-Sadiq having the Kitaab 'Ali, and numerous other things. We can all approach and relate to religion in different ways. Through history, through fiqh, through aqeedah, etc. and whichever way we approach it, although we might not be very knowledgeable about the other aspects, they then fall into place. However, I will study Imam al-Mahdi more given the good questions in this thread.

As I posted earlier, there are many works written by early scholars which discuss Imam al-Mahdi and the ghaybah. And I believe that through other research I have done, to follow the sunnah of the Prophet, you must follow the ahlul bayt. And to follow them in-full you must be a Shia. So, although I believe in Imam al-Mahdi, the truth of Shi'ism is confirmed in my own way, and I know much more about other aspects of Shia Islam, and I know that Imam al-Mahdi must be true because I know these other aspects to be true. However, of course there are corroborating aspects of Imam al-Mahdi, etc. It's just that I don't know this subject as well as others. However, of course there is evidence. Such as this from Musnad Ahmad:

حَدَّثَنَا ‫حَسَنُ بْنُ مُوسَى ‬، حَدَّثَنَا ‫حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ ‬، عَنِ ‫الْمُجَالِدِ ‬، عَنِ ‫الشَّعْبِيِّ ‬، عَنْ ‫مَسْرُوقٍ ‬، قَالَ : كُنَّا جُلُوسًا عِنْدَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ ، وَهُوَ يُقْرِئُنَا الْقُرْآنَ ، فَقَالَ لَهُ رَجُلٌ : يَا أَبَا عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ ، هَلْ سَأَلْتُمْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، كَمْ تَمْلِكُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةُ مِنْ خَلِيفَةٍ ؟ فَقَالَ ‫عَبْدُ اللَّهِ ‬: مَا سَأَلَنِي عَنْهَا أَحَدٌ مُنْذُ قَدِمْتُ الْعِرَاقَ قَبْلَكَ ، ثُمَّ قَالَ : نَعَمْ ، وَلَقَدْ سَأَلْنَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَالَ : " اثْنَا عَشَرَ ، ‫كَعِدَّةِ نُقَبَاءِ ‬بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ

This narration is not fully saheeh, however, regardless, it has some important implications which we can discuss if you wish.

So, given I know it can be proven that the imaams taught a unique conception of Islam, and that their teachings have been preserved in-full with the Shia, I do not have a problem accepting the aqeedah, despite not being as learned in this area as in others.

However, given that you speak Arabic, it would be best to research on your own and come to your own conclusions. However, my confidence in Shia Islam is not built upon having researched Imam al-Mahdi, although I do accept it because of many other factors.

We all approach religion and understand its truth through different means, however, it is important to study primary sources themselves.

[Reluctant]

So to get this straight, are you telling me that the sources of Shia reject the belief of having the 12 Imaams being divine (as in not normal human beings) and that they will judge people in the judgment day and that they have super natural powers and miracles, and that this whole world was created just for the 12 imaams?

If these sources do reject these beliefs then from where did our Shia brothers come up with it? You may help answering that question since you're a convert and I am assuming that you have converted by being convinced from your own researches.

What do you mean divine? Shia Islam does not teach this in any way. They were human beings...just as the Prophet (pbuh) was. Although they were rightly guided and should be followed.

I do not know about miracles...there are some narrations which indicate they did perform some miracles, by the permission of Allah, however the narrations I have specifically read in this regard are da'eef. Although, if it's by the permission of Allah, this does not contradict tawheed. Although, I am not aware of any positive proof in this regard.

We believe that following the ahlul bayt is a pillar of eman. Believing that Imam 'Ali was designated by the Prophet Muhammad to be his successor is a pillar of belief, in our opinion. And thus, to be considered a "mu'min," in-full, one must believe this.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن ابيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن زرارة والفضيل بن يسار، وبكير بن أعين ومحمد بن مسلم وبريد بن معاوية وأبي الجارود جميعا عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: أمر الله عزوجل رسوله بولاية علي وأنزل عليه " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة " وفرض ولاية أولي الامر، فلم يدروا ما هي، فأمر الله محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله أن يفسر لهم الولاية، كما فسر لهم الصلاة، والزكاة والصوم والحج، فلما أتاه ذلك من الله، ضاق بذلك صدر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وتخوف أن يرتدوا عن دينهم وأن يكذبوه فضاق صدره وراجع ربه عزوجل فأوحى الله عزوجل إليه " يا أيها الرسول بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس(3) " فصدع بأمر الله تعالى ذكره فقام بولاية علي عليه السلام يوم غدير خم، فنادى الصلاة جامعة(4) وأمر الناس أن يبلغ الشاهد الغائب.
- قال عمر بن اذنية: قالوا جميعا غير أبي الجارود - وقال أبوجعفر عليه السلام: وكانت الفريضة تنزل بعد الفريضة الاخرى وكانت الولاية آخر الفرائض، فأنزل الله عزوجل " اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي(5) " قال أبوجعفر عليه السلام: يقول الله عزوجل: لا انزل عليكم بعد هذه فريضة، قد أكملت لكم الفرائض.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل ابن زياد أبي سعيد، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال سألت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام عن قول الله عزوجل: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم(2) " فقال: نزلت في علي بن أبي طالب والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام: فقلت له: إن الناس يقولون: فما له لم يسم عليا وأهل بيته عليهم السلام في كتاب الله عز و جل؟ قال: فقال: قولوا لهم: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نزلت عليه الصلاة ولم يسم الله لهم ثلاثا ولا أربعا، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت عليه الزكاة ولم يسم لهم من كل أربعين درهما درهم، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزل الحج فلم يقل لهم: طوفوا اسبوعا حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول واولي الامر منكم " - ونزلت في علي والحسن والحسين - فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: في علي: من كنت مولاه، فعلي مولاه

We believe that following the Prophet and his ahlul bayt, remembering them, loving and associating with them, are all acts of worship. So, it could be likely that on the Day of Judgment, since wilayah of the ahl al-bayt is from the arkaan of eman, that there will be some significance with intercession, etc. I do not know the specifics of it, however, it is not difficult to understand it with all of these factors in mind.

Wa assalaamu aleykum

[BrAiKi]

I see your point. I have been studying different sections since I was a teenager myself, before I got my interest in other religions and expanding my readings/researches to them too.
I also have come across that Hadeeth that you have shared. As a matter of fact there is a smiliar passage about the same in the Bible as well. But nor the hadeeth or the Passage specify the 12 Imam's line coming from Al Hussien, and among his sons, the line of Imams extends through his Persian wife.

What I have come up with during my researches is that whatever happened has happened. Starting from the death of Prophet Mohammed, having the 3 Caliphates being elected and then it came to Ali (AS). Whether Ali was better than Abu Baker and Omar in Religion, that does not make him a better Caliphate. As the Quraan tells us in the story of Taloot that Taloot was a king, yet there was a prophet who used to guide them. So a knowledgeable and a holy man does not neccessarily mean that he should be the leader.
However, bay'aa took place and it was set on Abu Baker first, and then Omar, and then Othman and then Ali. That was what the majority of Muslim during the bay'aa saw as the best, and that is applying Al Shooraa principle. During the time of Abu Baker, there were wars of Murtadeen and that was the biggest threat to Islam, yet he succeeded in fighting that. So I think God will reward him for that because he didn't do it for himself, he did it for Islam.
Same goes to Omar who conquered the land of Persia.
So I don't think cursing these two (as it is seen being done and said by Shia) is right given what they have contributed to Islam.

Just that I don't drift away from my main point. I think none of the conflicts took place and the idea of the 12 Imaams being who they are recognized as today, has been introduced long after their death.
I also believe that whoever introduced this has also introduced the huge influence of the Persians in the Shia section.
- That is why whoever of Persian origins is not considered among the companions who "rebelled" after the death of Prophet Mohammed.
- That's why Al Hassan is not mentioned as much as Al Hussien in all the prayers. Because history says that he wanted Al sulh (settlement) with Bani Ummaya.
- That's why among Al Hassan and Al Hussien's many sons, ONLY those from Al Hussien's Persian wife take the Imama and it goes all the way to Al Mahdi.
- This coincides with Kesra (the pagan persian emperor AND the father of Al Hussien's wife) prediction that someone will take the lead from his sons.
- That's why it's written in some of the books that I read that Prophet Mohammed spoke highly of Kesra and saying that he is just and wise, while we all know what he did to the messenger that was sent by Prophet Mohammed and the Prophets Duaa' against him.
- That is why Omar ibn Al Khattab is the most hated one among the companions, as he is the one who conquerred Persia under lead of the Khalid ibn al waleed, the latter is hated too from the Shia.

And many more points that I can't recall right now.
This is my approach and it all fits in place to my conclusions that Shia section and its history is highly influenced by the Persians.

[Jeff]

Ahlul bayt?

What is that?

[BrAiKi]

These are from the house of Prophet Mohammed, when we pray upon prophet mohammed, we pray upon his Ahl Al Bayt.

lol Jeff you dialed the wrong number, buddy.

[Reluctant]

Thanks for your feedback BrAiKi.

However, given my research, I clearly see the teachings of Shia Islam as coming from the Imaams, as can be seen in Sunni books.

Umar is not hated because of conquering Persia. Umar is hated because he misguided Muslims and did not have the knowledge of religion in order to aptly rule. Through his ignorance, he brought about negative effects which impacted the lives of Muslims in negative ways.

Such as this:

4399 حدثنا عثمان بن أبي شيبة حدثنا جرير عن الأعمش عن أبي ظبيان عن ابن عباس قال أتي عمر بمجنونة قد زنت فاستشار فيها أناسا فأمر بها عمر أن ترجم مر بها على علي بن أبي طالب رضوان الله عليه فقال ما شأن هذه قالوا مجنونة بني فلان زنت فأمر بها عمر أن ترجم قال فقال ارجعوا بها ثم أتاه فقال يا أمير المؤمنين أما علمت أن القلم قد رفع عن ثلاثة عن المجنون حتى يبرأ وعن النائم حتى يستيقظ وعن الصبي حتى يعقل قال بلى قال فما بال هذه ترجم قال لا شيء قال فأرسلها قال فأرسلها قال فجعل يكبر .

تحقيق الألباني :
صحيح ، الإرواء ( 2 / 5 )

http://islamport.com/d/1/alb/1/54/511.html?zoom_highlightsub=%22%C7%E1%E3%C4%E3%E4%E D%E4+%C3%E3%C7+%DA%E1%E3%CA+%C3%E4+%C7%E1%DE%E1%E3 +%DE%CF+%D1%DD%DA%22

There are many more examples. Had Imaam 'Ali not stopped 'Umar, terrible things would have happened. There are many more examples of 'Umar's ignorance in matters of religion. Also, his akhlaaq was not very good. He hit women and whipped the sahaba. He even pushed Abu Hurayrah down and made him cry. Is this the behavior of a good Muslim? We wish to follow 'Ali, who passed judgment and ruled upon the shariah and the akhlaq of the Prophet (pbuh).

Now the first one I met was Umar. He asked: What are these sandals, Abu Huraira? I replied: These are the sandals of the Messenger of Allah with which he has sent me to gladden anyone I meet who testifies that there is no god but Allah, being assured of it in his heart, with the announcement that he would go to Paradise. Thereupon 'Umar struck me on the breast and I fell on my back. He then said: Go back, Abu Huraira, So I returned to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), and was about to break into tears.

http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0050#0050

There are many examples. We are the followers of the Prophet, and Imam 'Ali, and his family. We support them and are on their side. They are the inheritors of the sunnah and practiced it with surety, not with speculation.

لا مرية أن الشيعة هم أصحاب علي و الحسن و الحسين و علي بن الحسين و محمد بن علي و جعفر بن محمد و موسى بن جعفر حتى المهدي

However, as I said, fiqh is very important, and the imaams taught a unique conception of fiqh. Fiqh is important because it dictates how we view, relate to, and practice Islam.

This is from the Musannaf of Abd al-Razzaq:

7696 - قال وأخبرني جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه أن عليا كان يتحرى ليلة القدر ليلة تسع عشرة وإحدى وعشرين وثلاث وعشرين

What is the significance of assigning three different dates to Lailah al-Qadr? Why did Ja'far al-Saadiq teach this? You can only understand the significance of this through then coming to Shia teachings:

عن زرارة قال: قال أبوعبدالله (ع): التقدير في ليلة تسع عشرة والابرام في ليلة إحدى وعشرين والامضاء في ليلة ثلاث وعشرين

There is more to this. However, Shia fiqh and aqeedah can be demonstratively proven to have come from those who we consider to be imaams. It did not come from a foreign source. Moreover, as a Sunni, one is unable to understand these narrations--they just remain unknowns.

BarakAllah feekum.

Assalaamu aleykum

[Jeff]

Braiki:

Isn't it true that Shiism didn't take root in Persia until like the 1400s?

Seems like the Shahs brought it in from outside recently.

[BrAiKi]

Baa7ith: although I dont really want to take the discussion about umar further. But as I mentioned above, he might have had less knowledge than Ali in religion, but the majority of muslims saw him fit for a leader more than Ali and the rest of candidates. There is an example of that in the Quraan. Point being: someone with knowledge in religion doesnt necessarily mean that he's a better leader. There are many incidents which ali had corrected umar in. As a matter of fact, it was umar who said "law la ali, la halaka umar" meaning: if it wasnt for ali, umar would have been doomed.
Umar being the Calipha doesnt make him flawless and not making any mistakes. He was a human being who got corrected in many instances by his other companion(s) including Ali.
under him being a leader. Islam spread the most in many parts of the world and under no other Calipha did Islam spread the same way. So I think it is only fair to mention the good things about him as well.

My apologies i may have made typing errors. Its because i am using my phone

[Reluctant]

Good points BrAiKi.

Wa assalaamu aleykum

[Reluctant]

I just wanted to add this BrAiKi, in case there are any misconceptions. Shias respect the sahaba. We cannot match them in their deeds and status, and it's best to not bring them up in any negative way. It's inappropriate when we look at our deeds compared to their status. However, at the same time, we do support the ahlul bayt and disavow those who oppressed them and those who changed the sunnah. So, while it's best to not speak about it, we also have to do so in some cases to highlight the things which took place.

These are both Shia hadeeths:

والولاية لامير المؤمنين عليه السلام والذين مضوا على منهاج نبيهم ( ص ) ولم يغيروا ولم يبدلوا مثل سلمان الفارسي وأبي ذر الغفاري والمقداد بن الاسود وعمار بن ياسر وحذيفة اليماني وأبي الهيثم بن التيهان وسهل بن حنيف وعبادة بن الصامت وأبي أيوب الانصاري وخزيمة بن ثابت ذي الشهادتين وأبي سعيد الخدري وأمثالهم رضي الله عنهم ورحمة الله عليهم

http://dl.islamicdoc.com/Multimedia/fbook/362/00362001.htm

علي بن ابراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حنان بن سدير، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن حنان بن سدير، عن أبيه قال: سألت أبا جعفر (ع) عنهما (3) فقال: يا أبا الفضل ما تسألني عنهما فوالله ما مات منا ميت قط إلا ساخطا عليهما وما منا اليوم إلا ساخطا عليهما يوصي بذلك البير منا الصغير، إنهما ظلمانا حقنا ومنعانا فيئنا وكانا أول من ركب أعناقنا وبثقا علينا بثقا (4) في الاسلام لا يسكر ابدا حتى يقوم قائمنا أو يتكلم متكلمنا (5).
ثم قال: أما والله لو قد قام قائمنا [أ] وتكلم متكلمنا لابدى من امورهما ما كان يكتم ولكتم من امورهما ما كان يظهر والله ما أسست من بلية ولا قضية تجري علينا أهل البيت إلا هما أسسا أولها فعليمهما لعنة الله والملائكة والناس أجمعين.

http://www.alhikmeh.com/arabic/mktba/hadith/alkafi08/07.htm

Wa assalaamu aleykum

[Reluctant]

Part of being knowledgeable about a subject, BrAiKi, is that you should be able to convincingly argue for the truth of both sides. Islamic literature contains enough ambiguities for someone to be able to do this. That is why Sunnis and Shias keep on going around and around.

If you were a lawyer hired to defend Sunni Islam on one day, and Shia Islam on the next, you should be able to convince the respective juries of their truths, and the falsehoods of the other.

All of the points above, I can easily refute. I could easily turn around and argue against everything I just said, and then argue against that, many times over. This level of understanding isn't difficult to obtain and I think any Muslim should be able to do so. : )

[Reluctant]

Assalaamu aleykum BrAiKi. This will be my last post in this thread for the time being, however, given that we discussed intercession...I came across a narration tonight in Sunni books which I felt is pertinent to share. It is in Sunan Tirmidhi and Musnad Ahmad (note the isnaad):

حدثنا ‏ ‏نصر بن علي الجهضمي ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن جعفر بن محمد بن علي ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏أخي ‏ ‏موسى بن جعفر بن محمد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏ جعفر بن محمد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏محمد بن علي ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏علي بن الحسين ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏جده ‏ ‏علي بن أبي طالب ‏
أن رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أخذ بيد ‏ ‏حسن ‏ ‏وحسين ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏من أحبني وأحب هذين وأباهما وأمهما كان معي في درجتي يوم القيامة ‏

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=2&ID=61328&SearchText=%CC%DA%DD%D1%20%C8%E4%20%E3%CD%E3%CF&SearchType=root&Scope=0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8&Offset=0&SearchLevel=Allword

Verily Rasool Allah took the hands of Hassan and Hussein and said, "Whoever loves me and loves these two, and their father, and their mother, will be with me on my level on the day of judgment."

I know that Shia narrations speak about these aspects more and in more expansive and explanatory terms...however, clearly this type of love and centrality of the ahlul bayt is what is communicated in Shia Islam. This is more of a centrality and love than the aqeedah found in Sunni Islam.

Wa assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

[El Rey]

and this is a reply of your video by a video, lets c how much do you love Imam Ali

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz9P1CJ5gPo

حدثنا : ‏ ‏قتيبة بن سعيد ‏ ‏ومحمد بن عباد ‏ ‏وتقارباً في اللفظ ‏ ‏قالا ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حاتم وهو إبن إسماعيل ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏بكير بن مسمار ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد بن أبي وقاص ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال : ‏أمر ‏ ‏معاوية بن أبي سفيان ‏ ‏سعداًً ‏، ‏فقال : ما منعك أن تسب ‏ ‏أبا التراب ‏، ‏فقال : أما ما ذكرت ثلاثاًً قالهن له رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏فلن أسبه لأن تكون لي واحدة منهن أحب إلي : من ‏ ‏حمر النعم ‏ سمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يقول له ‏ ‏خلفه ‏ ‏في بعض مغازيه ، فقال له ‏ ‏علي ‏ ‏يا رسول الله ‏ ‏خلفتني ‏ ‏مع النساء والصبيان ، فقال له رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏أما ‏ ‏ترضى أن تكون مني بمنزلة ‏ ‏هارون ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏إلاّ أنه لا نبوة بعدي ، وسمعته يقول يوم ‏ ‏خيبر : ‏لأعطين الراية رجلاًًً يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله ، قال : فتطاولنا لها ، فقال : إدعوا لي ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏فأتي به ‏ ‏أرمد ، ‏فبصق في عينه ودفع الراية إليه ففتح الله عليه ولما نزلت هذه الآية ‏: فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ‏دعا رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏وفاطمة ‏ ‏وحسناًً ‏ ‏وحسيناًًً ‏، ‏فقال : اللهم هؤلاء أهلي


حدثنا : ‏ ‏علي بن محمد ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏أبو معاوية ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏موسى بن مسلم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏إبن سابط وهو عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏سعد بن أبي وقاص ، قال : قدم ‏ ‏معاوية ‏ ‏في بعض حجاته فدخل عليه ‏ ‏سعد ‏ ‏فذكروا ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏فنال منه فغضب ‏ ‏سعد ‏، ‏وقال : تقول هذا لرجل سمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يقول : من كنت ‏ ‏مولاه ‏ ‏فعلي ‏ ‏مولاه ‏ ‏وسمعته يقول : أنت مني بمنزلة ‏ ‏هارون ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏إلاّ أنه لا نبي بعدي ، وسمعته يقول : لأعطين الراية اليوم رجلاًًً يحب الله ورسوله.

Why do you interpret the video I put with me not loving Imam Ali. Haven't you read my just previous post? What I mean by that video is the exagerations you guys believe in. You take everything to the extreme and to the extent the mind doesn't even believe in. And when our prophet PBUH said that Ali to me is like Haoun to Mozes PBUH this doesn't mean that he should be in his place after his death otherwise we'll see Haroun in Mozes place after he passed away which didn't happen.

You are interpreting this and no offence exactly the same when the Christians interpreted the phrase Isa PBUH said to his apostles ; All this time and you still haven't recognised me?" they interpreted this that he's God and till now they're worshipping him. Worshipping a mere man. I see Shites doing the same. They're idolizing persons and mostly worship them. Asking for help from them, Ya 3ali ( Oh Ali ) and go to karbala for bilgirim. And some Shites believe that Ali should've been the prophet and some say if not for Ali, Allah woudn't have created heaven and many more that reaches mostly to shirk.

regarding our main topic which is the Imams and cpecifically Al Mahdi, what do you think about this Shark?

...

[El Rey]

I just wanted to add this BrAiKi, in case there are any misconceptions. Shias respect the sahaba. We cannot match them in their deeds and status, and it's best to not bring them up in any negative way. It's inappropriate when we look at our deeds compared to their status. However, at the same time, we do support the ahlul bayt and disavow those who oppressed them and those who changed the sunnah. So, while it's best to not speak about it, we also have to do so in some cases to highlight the things which took place.


Are you sure they do?

...

..

..

..

And this is what our prophet PBUH said:

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ وَأَبِي سَعِيدٍ رَضِيَ الله عَنْهُمَا قَالَا: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: "لَا تَسُبُّوا أَصْحَابِي لَا تَسُبُّوا أَصْحَابِي فَوَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَوْ أَنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ أَنْفَقَ مِثْلَ أُحُدٍ ذَهَبًا مَا أَدْرَكَ مُدَّ أَحَدِهِمْ وَلَا نَصِيفَهُ"
( Don't curse my companions. No matter how much you spend for Islam you will never even reach half what they did for Islam )

[El Rey]

Thanks for your feedback BrAiKi.

However, given my research, I clearly see the teachings of Shia Islam as coming from the Imaams, as can be seen in Sunni books.

Umar is not hated because of conquering Persia. Umar is hated because he misguided Muslims and did not have the knowledge of religion in order to aptly rule. Through his ignorance, he brought about negative effects which impacted the lives of Muslims in negative ways.



Wow baa7ith this is really shocking coming from you. Do you know that Allah agreed with Umar and disagreed with our prophet PBUH in some occasions? Does this mean that our prophet PBUH misguided muslims with his ignorance?

I mean do you know what our prophet said about Umar RAA?

[Reluctant]

Are you sure they do?


Throughout this entire topic, El Rey, you have demonstrated to everyone that you don't speak a word of Arabic. Or else you would have understood the hadeeth that I posted...it's pretty clear (it's part of a longer narration you have to read in-full):

والولاية لامير المؤمنين عليه السلام والذين مضوا على منهاج نبيهم ( ص ) ولم يغيروا ولم يبدلوا مثل سلمان الفارسي وأبي ذر الغفاري والمقداد بن الاسود وعمار بن ياسر وحذيفة اليماني وأبي الهيثم بن التيهان وسهل بن حنيف وعبادة بن الصامت وأبي أيوب الانصاري وخزيمة بن ثابت ذي الشهادتين وأبي سعيد الخدري وأمثالهم رضي الله عنهم ورحمة الله عليهم

Frankly I think it's bizarre that we are discussing intricate Islamic topics, whose material only exists in Arabic, among Arabic speakers, in English. I have an excuse because I'm a native English speaker.

I responded enough to correct some false assumptions about Shia Islam and and hopefully pique people's interests and give them some good research leads, if they really wish to research. However, you have shown in this thread that you don't have the basic skills to do simple research on a subject, much less to then engage the subject in an unbiased fashion. Regardless of me being a Shia, I don't care what anyone else believes. I have come to my own conclusions through my own research. I certainly don't hold animosity towards any human and I don't hold any religion in contempt. Judging religions based on contemporary practices and misrepresenting different ways of life without doing basic research...have never been something I have done or understand. The only thing I ask, regardless of what worldview you hold or way of life you follow...is that you understand and have knowledge of why you believe what you do. One should lead an introspective life and question their actions and assumptions and live their life with knowledge.

ES is not the venue for in-depth Islamic topics to be debated amongst Arabic speakers. I hope I provided enough information to set the record straight on some topics--and I think I did. However, other than that, I will not be participating in this thread anymore. I just don't see the point of engaging in this topic on ES. In my opinion, ES is for fun and lighthearted topics and I think it's asinine to debate such in-depth Islamic issues...with Arabic speakers...in English...on ES. It's just bizarre. Anyone who can't realize that...is bizarre.


Do you know that Allah agreed with Umar and disagreed with our prophet PBUH in some occasions?

And, no, I didn't realize that.

May Allah give us all knowledge.

Salaam.

[BrAiKi]

Baaa7ith i see your point and I see where you are coming from. If what shared was true regarding that Shia teachings do not idolize the Imaams and ahl al bait. Then the Sunna's love for ahl al bait is exactly the same. Except that we think that all of the sons of Ali plus al hassan and al hussiens sons (with no persian wife exception) are all good people who will go to heaven in sha allah with no birth line exception.

[Cherry]

^ Baa7ith your discussion here in English - among Arabic speakers is very beneficial... It may be bizarre but useful all the same. Some of us, like myself - prefer discussions in English rather than Arabic. I'm sure there are many others who don't speak arabic who'd also appreciate the same.

[BrAiKi]

I second cherry. I appreciate your efforts and in sha allah fe mizaan hasanatik (God will reward your efforts)

[Reluctant]

Baaa7ith i see your point and I see where you are coming from. If what shared was true regarding that Shia teachings do not idolize the Imaams and ahl al bait. Then the Sunna's love for ahl al bait is exactly the same. Except that we think that all of the sons of Ali plus al hassan and al hussiens sons (with no persian wife exception) are all good people who will go to heaven in sha allah with no birth line exception.

Allahumma ameen BrAiKi. May we always research and seek to find the truth. Ameen.


^ Baa7ith your discussion here in English - among Arabic speakers is very beneficial... It may be bizarre but useful all the same. Some of us, like myself - prefer discussions in English rather than Arabic. I'm sure there are many others who don't speak arabic who'd also appreciate the same.

Thanks for letting me know, Cherry. I am sad that I wasn't able to present information in a more lucid and all-encompassing manner. However, I hope my responses were pertinent to the topic at hand and that they will be beneficial to people. BarakAllah feekum.

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah

[El Rey]

Throughout this entire topic, El Rey, you have demonstrated to everyone that you don't speak a word of Arabic. Or else you would have understood the hadeeth that I posted...it's pretty clear (it's part of a longer narration you have to read in-full):

والولاية لامير المؤمنين عليه السلام والذين مضوا على منهاج نبيهم ( ص ) ولم يغيروا ولم يبدلوا مثل سلمان الفارسي وأبي ذر الغفاري والمقداد بن الاسود وعمار بن ياسر وحذيفة اليماني وأبي الهيثم بن التيهان وسهل بن حنيف وعبادة بن الصامت وأبي أيوب الانصاري وخزيمة بن ثابت ذي الشهادتين وأبي سعيد الخدري وأمثالهم رضي الله عنهم ورحمة الله عليهم

Frankly I think it's bizarre that we are discussing intricate Islamic topics, whose material only exists in Arabic, among Arabic speakers, in English. I have an excuse because I'm a native English speaker.

I responded enough to correct some false assumptions about Shia Islam and and hopefully pique people's interests and give them some good research leads, if they really wish to research. However, you have shown in this thread that you don't have the basic skills to do simple research on a subject, much less to then engage the subject in an unbiased fashion. Regardless of me being a Shia, I don't care what anyone else believes. I have come to my own conclusions through my own research. I certainly don't hold animosity towards any human and I don't hold any religion in contempt. Judging religions based on contemporary practices and misrepresenting different ways of life without doing basic research...have never been something I have done or understand. The only thing I ask, regardless of what worldview you hold or way of life you follow...is that you understand and have knowledge of why you believe what you do. One should lead an introspective life and question their actions and assumptions and live their life with knowledge.

ES is not the venue for in-depth Islamic topics to be debated amongst Arabic speakers. I hope I provided enough information to set the record straight on some topics--and I think I did. However, other than that, I will not be participating in this thread anymore. I just don't see the point of engaging in this topic on ES. In my opinion, ES is for fun and lighthearted topics and I think it's asinine to debate such in-depth Islamic issues...with Arabic speakers...in English...on ES. It's just bizarre. Anyone who can't realize that...is bizarre.



And, no, I didn't realize that.

May Allah give us all knowledge.

Salaam.

I don't really get why you're so pissed about my posts. I don't see any insult in it and we're just discussing no matter what language we use. We use English here cos this is ENGLISH sabla. And regarding this:


والولاية لامير المؤمنين عليه السلام والذين مضوا على منهاج نبيهم ( ص ) ولم يغيروا ولم يبدلوا مثل سلمان الفارسي وأبي ذر الغفاري والمقداد بن الاسود وعمار بن ياسر وحذيفة اليماني وأبي الهيثم بن التيهان وسهل بن حنيف وعبادة بن الصامت وأبي أيوب الانصاري وخزيمة بن ثابت ذي الشهادتين وأبي سعيد الخدري وأمثالهم رضي الله عنهم ورحمة الله عليهم

Why don't I see the Caliphes names in here? Anyways, no need to get upset about this we're just discussing and you have the choice to participate or not. And again, I appreciat your efforts.

[El Rey]

However, you have shown in this thread that you don't have the basic skills to do simple research on a subject, much less to then engage the subject in an unbiased fashion. .


Wow baa7ith this is really shocking coming from you. Do you know that Allah agreed with Umar and disagreed with our prophet PBUH in some occasions? Does this mean that our prophet PBUH misguided muslims with his ignorance?

I mean do you know what our prophet said about Umar RAA?


And, no, I didn't realize that.

May Allah give us all knowledge.

Salaam.

Isn't this ironic as well?!

[Reluctant]

One last note, since it is not a matter of fiqh, but a matter of tawheed.

I honestly didn't know that people actually thought that Shias believe the imaams are divine--or that the Jibraeel accidentally descended on the Prophet instead of 'Ali. You hear of random things now and then...but for someone to actually bring this up, it's really off base and weird. I don't know how anyone could come to believe this having actually put any time into researching the topic from primary sources. During Islamic history, such people existed. However, their ideas were denounced by the imaams. In Shia ahadeeth, some narrators are rejected because they held ideas which constituted "ghulu." As one final note, I will post a few things concerning this...just so it is said:

عن الرضا ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث ـ قال : من زعم أن الله يفعل أفعالنا ثم يعذبنا عليها ، فقد قال بالجبر ، ومن زعم أن الله فوض أمر الخلق والرزق إلى حججه ، فقد قال بالتفويض ، والقائل بالجبر كافر ، والقائل بالتفويض مشرك .

From Imaam al-Ridhaa who said: One who claims that Allah does our acts then punishes us upon them, then he has believed in jabr (compulsion). And one who claims that Allah delegated the command of creation and sustenance to His hujjah (the imaam), then he has believed in tafwid. And the one who believes in jabr is an unbeliever. And the one who believes in tafwid is an idolater.

And here is one of the duaas which Imaam al-Ridaa used to say:

وكان الرضا - عليه السلام - يقول في دعائه:
اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الحول والقوة، فلا حول ولا قوة إلا بك.
اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين ادعوا لنا ما ليس لنا بحق.
اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا.
اللهم لك الخلق ومنك الأمر، وإياك نعبد وإياك نستعين.
اللهم أنت خالقنا وخالق آبائنا الأولين وآبائنا الآخرين.
اللهم لا تليق الربوبية إلا بك، ولا تصلح الإلهية إلا لك، فالعن النصارى الذين صغروا عظمتك، والعن المضاهين لقولهم من بريتك.
اللهم إنا عبيدك وأبناء عبيدك، لا نملك لأنفسنا ضرا ولا نفعا ولا موتا ولا حياة ولا نشورا.
اللهم من زعم أننا أرباب فنحن إليك منه براء، ومن زعم أن إلينا الخلق وعلينا الرزق فنحن إليك منه براء كبراءة عيسى - عليه السلام - من النصارى.
اللهم إنا لم ندعهم إلى ما يزعمون، فلا تؤاخذنا بما يقولون واغفر لنا ما يزعمون.
رب لا تذر على الأرض من الكافرين ديارا * إنك إن تذرهم يضلوا عبادك ولا يلدوا إلا فاجرا كفار

And Imam 'Ali ar-Rida, upon whom be peace, used to say in his supplications:

Oh Allah, I seek absolution from Thee in respect of Thy Strength and Power. There is neither strength nor power save in Thee.

Oh Allah, I declare myself before Thee as having nothing to do with those who assert in respect of us things which we ourselves do not know.

Oh Allah, to Thee belongs creation and Thou possesses the power of command; Thee alone do we worship and from Thee do we seek help"

Oh Allah, Thou art our Creator, and the Creator of our ancestors, near and remote.

Oh Allah, none deserves lordship save Thee; and divinity befits none except to Thee. So curse the Christians who belittled Thy greatness, and curse those who declare Thee to resemble Thy Creature.

Oh Allah, verily we are Thy slaves and the sons of Thy slaves. We have no power over ourselves in respect of profit, loss, death, life or resurrection.

Oh Allah, he who asserts that we are lords, we seek absolution from Thee in respect of him.

Here is one final narration, about Imaam 'Ali and what he did when some people said that he was divine. Followed by the commentary of Sheikh al-Sadouq, an early Shia scholar, against the ghulat:

وقال أبوجعفر عليه السلام: (أن عليا عليه السلام لما فرغ من أهل البصرة أتاه سبعون رجلا من الزط فسلموا عليه وكلموه بلسانهم، ثم قال لهم: إني لست كما قلتم إنا عبدالله مخلوق، قال: فأبوا عليه وقالوا لعنهم الله: لا بل أنت أنت هو، فقال لهم: لئن لم ترجعوا عما قلتم ولم تتوبوا إلى الله عزوجل لاقتلنكم، قال: فأبوا عليه أن يتوبوا ويرجعوا قال: فأمر عليه السلام أن تحفر لهم آبار فحفرت، ثم خرق بعضها إلى بعض، ثم قذف بهم فيها، ثم جن رؤوسها، ثم ألهب في بئر منها نارا وليس فيها أحد منهم فدخل فيها الدخان عليهم فماتوا)).

قال مصنف هذا الكتاب رحمة الله: إن الغلاة لعنهم الله يقولون: لو لم يكن علي ربا لما عذبهم بالنار، فيقال لهم: لو كان ربا لما أحتاج إلى حفر الآبار وخرق بعضها إلى بعض وتغطية رؤوسها ولكان يحدث نارا في أجسادهم فتلهب بهم فتحرقهم، ولكنه لما كان عبدا مخلوقا حفر الآبار وفعل ما فعل حتى أقام حكم الله فيهم وقتلهم ولو كان من يعذب بالنار ويقيم الحد بها ربا لكان من عذب بغير النار ليس برب، وقد وجدنا الله تعالى عذب قوما بالغرق، وآخرين بالريح وآخرين بالطوفان، وآخرين بالجراد والقمل والضفادع والدم، وآخرين بحجارة من سجيل، وإنما عذبهم أمير المؤمنين عليه الصلاة والسلام على قولهم بربوبيته بالنار دون غيرها لعلة فيها حكمة بالغة وهي أن الله تعالى ذكره حرم النار على أهل توحيده، فقال علي عليه السلام: لو كنت ربكم ما أحرقتكم وقد قلتم بربوبيتي، ولكنكم إستوجبتم مني بظلمكم ضد ما إستوجبه الموحدون من ربهم عزوجل، وأنا قسيم ناره بإذنه، فإن شئت عجلتها لكم، وإن شئت أخرتها فمأواكم النار هي مولاكم أي هي أولى بكم وبئس المصير، ولست لكم بمولى، وإنما أقامهم أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام في قولهم بربوبيته مقام من عبد من دون الله عز وجل صنما.

Assalaamu aleykum

[El Rey]

One last note, since it is not a matter of fiqh, but a matter of tawheed.

I honestly didn't know that people actually thought that Shias believe the imaams are divine--or that the Jibraeel accidentally descended on the Prophet instead of 'Ali. You hear of random things now and then...but for someone to actually bring this up, it's really off base and weird. I don't know how anyone could come to believe this having actually put any time into researching the topic from primary sources. During Islamic history, such people existed. However, their ideas were denounced by the imaams. In Shia ahadeeth, some narrators are rejected because they held ideas which constituted "ghulu." As one final note, I will post a few things concerning this...just so it is said

And this is what we're discussing in here . El guhlu in idolizing persons. The idea of a hiding Imam who has super powers but no one ever seen. The one who is going to safe the humanity from evil and those who don't believe in him are going to hell. This is our topic baa7ith.

[Reluctant]

Do you know that Allah agreed with Umar and disagreed with our prophet PBUH in some occasions?


Isn't this ironic as well?!

It was a nice way of saying, El Rey...that clearly this idea is inane. I don't accept such a preposterous assertion.

Salaam.

[El Rey]

What do you mean? I really didn't get your point!

[BrAiKi]

You see baa7ith, you have studied the sources and so far I can say that there isn't much difference between your belief and Sunna, 'aqeeda wise. Whereas others like shark obviously is living among Shia and is practicing it, going to lectures and getting affected by what is said in these lectures. You can read his posts and see the ghulu in his posts. Why would a mere human being be immortal and get to lead the whole world, quoting shark : Something that even the prophet didnt get". If imaams are compared to prophets then there is absolutely no significance of having Prophet Mohmmed as the last prophet!

[Reluctant]

And this is what we're discussing in here . El guhlu in idolizing persons. The idea of a hiding Imam who has super powers but no one ever seen. The one who is going to safe the humanity from evil and those who don't believe in him are going to hell. This is our topic baa7ith.

As I said, El Rey, for everything I believe, I can also argue against it. I could argue both sides in court. I feel that anyone who knows a subject matter in-depth can do the same.

All I ask is that you argue with knowledge.

[shark307]

Why do you interpret the video I put with me not loving Imam Ali. Haven't you read my just previous post? What I mean by that video is the exagerations you guys believe in. You take everything to the extreme and to the extent the mind doesn't even believe in. And when our prophet PBUH said that Ali to me is like Haoun to Mozes PBUH this doesn't mean that he should be in his place after his death otherwise we'll see Haroun in Mozes place after he passed away which didn't happen.

You are interpreting this and no offence exactly the same when the Christians interpreted the phrase Isa PBUH said to his apostles ; All this time and you still haven't recognised me?" they interpreted this that he's God and till now they're worshipping him. Worshipping a mere man. I see Shites doing the same. They're idolizing persons and mostly worship them. Asking for help from them, Ya 3ali ( Oh Ali ) and go to karbala for bilgirim. And some Shites believe that Ali should've been the prophet and some say if not for Ali, Allah woudn't have created heaven and many more that reaches mostly to shirk.

regarding our main topic which is the Imams and cpecifically Al Mahdi, what do you think about this Shark?

...

Regarding the video that you have posted of Othman Al Khamis, with all my respect to Maqamak Al Karim, but Othman Al Khamis is one of the biggest liers (its not that he lies unpurposley), there is one of his audio clips he says him self (I gave the other shia party a page no. from my own source just like that. I'll paste u his lies first regarding the hadiths he has mentioned in your video to know how lier this person is, and this person I dont consider him sunni, not at all, I consider him Wahabi.

روى الكليني قدس سره في الكافي عن الحسين بن محمد الأشعري، عن معلى بن محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عبد الله قال: خرج عن أبي محمد ( ع ) حين قتل الزبيري لعنه الله : هذا

جزاء من اجترأ على الله في أوليائه، يزعم أنه يقتلني وليس لي عقب، فكيف رأى قدرة الله فيه، وولد له ولد سماه (م ح م د) في سنة ست وخمسين ومائتين ( 4 ).


كما روى الشيخ الكليني قدس سره في الكافي أيضاً عن علي بن محمد، عن محمد بن علي بن بلال قال: خرج إلي من أبي محمد قبل مضيه بسنتين يخبرني بالخلف من بعده، ثم خرج إلى من قبل مضيه بثلاثة أيام يخبرني بالخلف من بعده ( 5 ).


وروى أيضاً في الكافي بسند صحيح، عن محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن إسحاق، عن أبي هاشم الجعفري قال: قلت لأبي محمد ع ) : جلالتك تمنعني من مسألتك، فتأذن لي أن أسألك؟ فقال: سل. قلت: يا سيدي هل لك ولد؟ فقال: نعم. فقلت: فإن حدَثَ بك حدثٌ فأين أسأل عنه؟ فقال: بالمدينة ( 1 ).


( 4 ) كتاب الكافي 1/329.
( 5 ) كتاب الكافي 1/328.


Q: Where is the lady that he has mentioned? and is it one narration that I have pasted?


Here are some of his videos, where no one would accept his purposed lies:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq0a65n2NM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lldbwD4F24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJxdJObL1KU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaFcZUQWFEI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QueZX2G5Lvk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCD8tA5OY80




regarding Ya Ali post, I'll leave it to the respected sunni scholar regarding saying YA MUHAMAD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fC5Z2wYMm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwLAfxwz7A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQaKIxnrFRA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd5sRETDyBM&feature=related


El Rey, please try to see the difference between Sunni's believes the Wahabi's believes, dont take ur religion from Wahabi's and Wahabi's characters are well known.




الحاكم الحسكاني
- شواهد التنزيل -الجزء : ( 2 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 264 )

896 - حدثنيه أبو الحسن المصباحي حدثنا أبو القاسم علي بن أحمد بن واصل حدثنا عبد الله بن محمد بن عثمان حدثنا يعقوب بن إسحاق من ولد عباد بن العوام حدثنا يحيى بن عبد الحميد عن شريك ، عن الاعمش قال : حدثني أبو المتوكل الناجي . عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال : قال رسول الله (ص) : أذا كان يوم القيامة قال الله تعالى لمحمد وعلي : أدخلا الجنة من أحبكما وأدخلا النار من أبغضكما ، فيجلس علي على شفير جهنم فيقول لها : هذا لي وهذا لك ، وهو قوله : ألقيا في جهنم كل كفار عنيد .

[BrAiKi]

Oh you didn't just post that Hadeeth.
:XD:
So Ali DOES decide who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven.
If this isn't Ghulu, then I don't know what is.
Baa7ith, I really hope you're still following this thread.

What is the role of God then if He's not the one who decides that?
If Ali was in the same level as Prophet Mohammed, then what is the significance of having Prophet Mohammed as the last prophet?

[Reluctant]

Oh you didn't just post that Hadeeth.
:XD:
So Ali DOES decide who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven.
If this isn't Ghulu, then I don't know what is.
Baa7ith, I really hope you're still following this thread.

What is the role of God then if He's not the one who decides that?
If Ali was in the same level as Prophet Mohammed, then what is the significance of having Prophet Mohammed as the last prophet?

That's a Sunni hadeeth, BrAiKi. ^^ Although it is said to be, "موضوع."

There are others like it:

حدثنا عبد الله حدثنى أبى حدثنا عفان حدثنا حماد بن سلمة حدثنا محمد بن إسحاق عن محمد بن إبراهيم التيمى عن سلمة بن أبى الطفيل عن على بن أبى طالب أن النبى -صلى الله عليه وسلم- قال له « يا على إن لك كنزا من الجنة وإنك ذو قرنيها فلا تتبع النظرة النظرة فإنما لك الأولى وليست لك الآخرة
الذهبي قي التلخيص : صحيح

http://islamport.com/d/1/mtn/1/88/3237.html?zoom_highlightsub=%22%D0%E6+%DE%D1%E4%ED %E5%C7%22

"Ya 'Ali, yours is a treasure in jannah, and you are the possessor of its horns (its two ends)."

Could this mean that belief in the wilayah of 'Ali will determine who can go to jannah?

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم الحسن والحسين سيدا شباب أهل الجنة وأبوهما خير منهما

http://arabic.islamicweb.com/books/albani.asp?id=2093

"Hassan and Hussein are the masters of the youth of jannah, and their father is better than them."

Not only will Imam 'Ali be in jannah, but his status will be greater than those who are the master's of a certain segment of jannah. His status in jannah will be very high.

Ghulu is in relation to a person's conception of the divine. If someone attributes divine attributes to a human, this is ghulu. We deny that Imam 'Ali was divine. He was a human, but he was rightly guided in terms of religious affairs, and we believe the Prophet designated him to be his successor during his life.

As I said before, in our belief, wilayah to Imam 'Ali and his family is from the arkaan of eman. So, it is not difficult to comprehend given Imam 'Ali's status that belief in his wilayah will play a significant role on the day of judgment. However, as to how people will be physically judged and if 'Ali will play a part in that, I don't know. However, we believe that belief in the wilayah of 'Ali will play a part in that, as Rasool Allah said to hold tightly to the Qur'an and his ahl al-bait.

[BrAiKi]

Although some say that the author of this book is Sunni, but it does not belong to Sunna nor that they use it in their references because it contains ahadeeth mawdhoo'a.
Here's what is said about Al Hiskani, the Author of that book:


الحاكم الحسكاني مؤلف " شواهد التنزيل" شيعي لكنه ليس رافضياً ، وقد نسبه الرافضة إليهم ولا يُسلّم لهم بذلك
قال آقا بزرالطهراني في كتابه الذريعة إلى تصانيف الشيعة ج 4 ص 194 :
(الحاكم الحسكاني مؤلف " شواهد التنزيل " " وهو الشيخ الحاكم أبو القاسم عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن أحمد بن محمد بن أحمد بن محمد بن حسكان القرشى العامري النيسابوري المنسوب إلى جده حسكان كغضبان كما ترجمه كذلك الذهبي في تذكرة الحفاظ ( ج 3 - ص 390 ) وذكر أنه الحاكم المعروف بابن الحداد من ذرية عبد الله بن عامر الذى افتتح خراسان زمن عثمان ، وذكر أنه كان معمرا عالى الاسناد صنف وجمع وحدث عن جده وعن أبى عبد الله الحاكم بن البيع النيسابوري ( المتوفى 405 ) إلى أن قال وقد اكثر عنه عبد الغافر بن اسماعيل الفارسى ( المولود 451 والمتوفى 529 ) وذكره في تاريخه لكنه لم اجد فيه وفاته ، / صفحة 195 / وقد توفى بعد تسعين وأربعماية ، ووجدت له مجلسا يدل على تشيعه).


ويقول محقق كتاب تفسير فرات الكوفي في المقدمة
ص13الطبعة الاولى 1410 ه*. - 1990 م طهران

وهذا الكتاب لم يكن بمتناول أحد من العلماء والاعلام فيما نعرف
إلى زمن العلامة المجلسي
رحمه الله سوى الحاكم أبي القاسم عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن أحمد الحسكاني
الحافظ صاحب الكتاب النفيس شواهد التنزيل حيث كان عنده هذا الكتاب بالكامل
وهو يكثر النقل عنه في
كتابه وأيضا ينقل بسنده إلى فرات إضافة إلى النقل المباشر وقد كان
لدى الحاكم الحسكاني أصولا وكتبا أخرى هي غير موجودة اليوم مثل
التفسير العتيق وتفسير العياشي بكامله مسندا


It's a book that is usually used by Shia to prove to Sunna a certain point, just like what Shark did in an early post.
But as you said, the hadeeth is mawdoo'. It is a known fact in Sunna that Ali is just a companion of the Prophet and his cousin too, regardless of the level of knowledge that he had, Karram Allahu Wajhah.

What I also read about it is that this book "Shawahid Al Tanzeel" is quotes a lot from "Furaat Al Kofi" and the latter is written by a Shia.

[shark307]

Oh you didn't just post that Hadeeth.
:XD:
So Ali DOES decide who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven.
If this isn't Ghulu, then I don't know what is.
Baa7ith, I really hope you're still following this thread.

What is the role of God then if He's not the one who decides that?
If Ali was in the same level as Prophet Mohammed, then what is the significance of having Prophet Mohammed as the last prophet?




إقرار أحمد بن حنبل بهذا الحديث (علي قسيم الجنة والنار)


- وقد سئل أحمد ، عن حديث قسيم النار فلم يضعفه، ولم يخدش فيه ، ولا جرح راويه ، بل ثبته وإتجه إلى تأويله وبيان معناه.


وكذلك أبو حنيفة لم يضعف لحديث ، ولم يعاتب الأعمش على روايته حديثاًًًً ضعيفاًًً ، وإنما اللوم والعتاب والإستنابة كانت على نشر حديث في فضل علي أمير المؤمنين (ع).


قال : محمد بن منصور الطوسي : كنا عند أحمد بن حنبل ، فقال له رجل : يا أبا عبدالله ، ما تقول في هذا الحديث الذي روى : أن علياًً قال : أنا قسيم النار ؟؟.
فقال : ما تنكرون من ذا ؟! اليس روينا أن النبي (ص) قال لعلي : لا يحبك إلاّ مؤمن ، ولا يبغضك إلاّ منافق؟.
قلنا : بلى.
قال : فأين المؤمن ؟.
قلنا : في الجنة.
قال : فأين المنافق ؟.
قلنا : في النار.
قال : فعلي قسيم الجنة والنار.


المصدر :


- طبقات الحنابلة : 320 رقم : ( 448 ).
- المنهج الأحمد في طبقات أصحاب أحمد - الجزء : ( 1 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 130 ).
- كفاية الطالب - الكنجي - رقم الصفحة : ( 22 ).



صحيح مسلم - من الإيمان - الدليل على أن حب الأنصار وعلي (ر



‏ حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبوبكر بن أبي شيبة ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏وكيع ‏ ‏وأبو معاوية ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏الأعمش ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏، وحدثنا : ‏ ‏يحيى بن يحيى ‏ ‏واللفظ له ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏أبو معاوية ‏ ‏، عن ‏الأعمش ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏عدي بن ثابت ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏زر ‏ ‏قال : قال علي ‏: والذي فلق الحبة وبرأ النسمة إنه لعهد النبي الأمي ‏(ص) ‏‏إلي ‏ ‏أن لا يحبني إلاّ مؤمن ، ولا يبغضني إلاّ منافق



If God assigns angels to bring up our souls, and have many roles during day of judgement, so what if Prophet Mohamad is assigned for this role? I dont c anything wrong with it, cuz he wont do anything without God's will in the end or against it la samah allah. Ahmed bin Hanbal Imam Al Hanabila has no problem with the hadith.


Regarding the point you have mentioned about Kisra predicting bout his kingdom and stuff, dear when I went throught the posts in the thread, there is someone already has pointed you out that the hadith is considered very weak through 2 people not just one, and you didnt clarify your point about what makes this hadith strong, so why are you bringing up something that has been proven to you already thats its wrong? this means whenever you will always point this hadith to every single shia and you already know thats its weak according to Shia (which isn't called Amana 3ilmiya, knowledge honesty, i.e. you're saying something which you already know is not believed by the other party).

[BrAiKi]

Again I'll repeat that Ahl al Beit have a special level as we pray upon them in every prayer, but still that doesn't give anybody the right for Ghulu in their levels. Ali had a better knowledge and that is mentioned by Umar himself as I said in an early post. But that doesn't make him a better leader as the ones who had al bay'aa back then.

Opening the door for Ghulu results in what is happening today with our Shia Brothers, they compare Ali to God. Saying that the Throne of God is at the Imaam's feet, having Ali or the Imaams to judge on the judgment day, or saying that the Throne of God has "Al Hussien" written on it. Or even saying that in a certain incident, when a man was swearing at Ali, two hands came out from the grave of Prophet Mohammed and what was written them was "How can you curse Ali and he is the one who CREATED you"

That is the Ghulu that I am talking about, and it is the result of such thoughts.

[BrAiKi]

إقرار أحمد بن حنبل بهذا الحديث (علي قسيم الجنة والنار)


- وقد سئل أحمد ، عن حديث قسيم النار فلم يضعفه، ولم يخدش فيه ، ولا جرح راويه ، بل ثبته وإتجه إلى تأويله وبيان معناه.


وكذلك أبو حنيفة لم يضعف لحديث ، ولم يعاتب الأعمش على روايته حديثاًًًً ضعيفاًًً ، وإنما اللوم والعتاب والإستنابة كانت على نشر حديث في فضل علي أمير المؤمنين (ع).


قال : محمد بن منصور الطوسي : كنا عند أحمد بن حنبل ، فقال له رجل : يا أبا عبدالله ، ما تقول في هذا الحديث الذي روى : أن علياًً قال : أنا قسيم النار ؟؟.
فقال : ما تنكرون من ذا ؟! اليس روينا أن النبي (ص) قال لعلي : لا يحبك إلاّ مؤمن ، ولا يبغضك إلاّ منافق؟.
قلنا : بلى.
قال : فأين المؤمن ؟.
قلنا : في الجنة.
قال : فأين المنافق ؟.
قلنا : في النار.
قال : فعلي قسيم الجنة والنار.


المصدر :


- طبقات الحنابلة : 320 رقم : ( 448 ).
- المنهج الأحمد في طبقات أصحاب أحمد - الجزء : ( 1 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 130 ).
- كفاية الطالب - الكنجي - رقم الصفحة : ( 22 ).



صحيح مسلم - من الإيمان - الدليل على أن حب الأنصار وعلي (ر



‏ حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبوبكر بن أبي شيبة ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏وكيع ‏ ‏وأبو معاوية ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏الأعمش ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏، وحدثنا : ‏ ‏يحيى بن يحيى ‏ ‏واللفظ له ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏أبو معاوية ‏ ‏، عن ‏الأعمش ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏عدي بن ثابت ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏زر ‏ ‏قال : قال علي ‏: والذي فلق الحبة وبرأ النسمة إنه لعهد النبي الأمي ‏(ص) ‏‏إلي ‏ ‏أن لا يحبني إلاّ مؤمن ، ولا يبغضني إلاّ منافق



If God assigns angels to bring up our souls, and have many roles during day of judgement, so what if Prophet Mohamad is assigned for this role? I dont c anything wrong with it, cuz he wont do anything without God's will in the end or against it la samah allah. Ahmed bin Hanbal Imam Al Hanabila has no problem with the hadith.


Regarding the point you have mentioned about Kisra predicting bout his kingdom and stuff, dear when I went throught the posts in the thread, there is someone already has pointed you out that the hadith is considered very weak through 2 people not just one, and you didnt clarify your point about what makes this hadith strong, so why are you bringing up something that has been proven to you already thats its wrong? this means whenever you will always point this hadith to every single shia and you already know thats its weak according to Shia (which isn't called Amana 3ilmiya, knowledge honesty, i.e. you're saying something which you already know is not believed by the other party).

Sigh...
This is just like when you ask me about the Mus'haf of Fatima.
Kesra's stroy:Why would I have to prove it being strong or not if it's in your books? If it was why why is there still people babbling about it and repeating it in Iran's lectures? Because that's where I first heard it. Anyhow, it is nevertheless written and in my opinion that is one of the influences of the Persians in Shiaism. It's good that you don't agree with the story though. :)

Regarding the Angels:You my friend are using the same argument again and again. These are the jobs of the Angels and that is why they are called Angels. Whereas Ali and the Imaams and the prophet are only human beings and comparing them to Angels is invalid. Just like when you compared a prophet's ability to an Imaam in an early post.

Logic logic and logic my friend. Your way of argument has nothing to do with logic!
An Angel doing a certain job does not make an Imaam do it too!
A prophet performing a certain miracle does not make an Imaam perform it too!
You get my drift?

[shark307]

Again I'll repeat that Ahl al Beit have a special level as we pray upon them in every prayer, but still that doesn't give anybody the right for Ghulu in their levels. Ali had a better knowledge and that is mentioned by Umar himself as I said in an early post. But that doesn't make him a better leader as the ones who had al bay'aa back then.

Opening the door for Ghulu results in what is happening today with our Shia Brothers, they compare Ali to God. Saying that the Throne of God is at the Imaam's feet, having Ali or the Imaams to judge on the judgment day, or saying that the Throne of God has "Al Hussien" written on it. Or even saying that in a certain incident, when a man was swearing at Ali, two hands came out from the grave of Prophet Mohammed and what was written them was "How can you curse Ali and he is the one who CREATED you"

That is the Ghulu that I am talking about, and it is the result of such thoughts.

You know that the Gulu ur mentioning are not accepted by most of Shia as you claim you got Shia friends, do they worship Imam Ali Wal Iyath Billah? I'll give you a shortcut, most shia's dont believe in what ur mentioning regarding Imam Ali's creating wal 3iyath billah, dear this is not the way to read different sects believes, you dont run behind the advertisements and behind the weak or mawdhu3 hadith. You have to read the approved and qualified sources, the corrected hadiths in terms of sanad, matn, diraya and other hadiths rules. If your reading is based on things you hear from here and there, you can find this in every religion or sect in google or youtube or wherever. For example you have heard a person speaking bout something that not majority approve this hadith, or found a hadith that is not approved not you present it as an evidence. Based on your way, I can do the same thing and say Al Bukhari narrates his hadith from Mughira bin Shuba who was swearing at Imam Ali ok? now based on this I cannot claim that all Sunna wal iyath billah hate Imam Ali because Al Bukhari narrates his hadith from Mughira bin Shuba, there are Sunna who dont agree on what Mugheera bin Shuba was doing and not accepting it.

[shark307]

[QUOTE=BrAiKi;1513666]Sigh...
This is just like when you ask me about the Mus'haf of Fatima.
Kesra's stroy:Why would I have to prove it being strong or not if it's in your books? If it was why why is there still people babbling about it and repeating it in Iran's lectures? Because that's where I first heard it. Anyhow, it is nevertheless written and in my opinion that is one of the influences of the Persians in Shiaism. It's good that you don't agree with the story though. :)
[QUOTE]

Ofcourse I dont believe in it, and not a single shia. Most of those stories boout Shia's are brought up by Wahabi, sometimes it doesnt exists, sometimes its weak hadiths, sometimes they cut parts from hadith sometimes etc. You have to bring up a strong hadith cuz thats considered a logical evidence, you know how many narrators are there? you know that not all narrators are in same situation? some are liers, some they forget, some are true speaking and not too much forgetting, so logically its not right to use it as an evidence. When someone gives u hadith al ghadir as an evidence, he will tell you well its approved by ur side as over 6000 companion witnessed this hadith.. etc.

[QUOTE=BrAiKi;1513666]Regarding the Angels:You my friend are using the same argument again and again. These are the jobs of the Angels and that is why they are called Angels. Whereas Ali and the Imaams and the prophet are only human beings and comparing them to Angels is invalid. Just like when you compared a prophet's ability to an Imaam in an early post.

Logic logic and logic my friend. Your way of argument has nothing to do with logic!
An Angel doing a certain job does not make an Imaam do it too!
A prophet performing a certain miracle does not make an Imaam perform it too!
You get my drift?[QUOTE]

You weren't given the job descriptions of the Prophets and the Imams, to know what roles suits them or not, our job is to receive orders from them, not to control what they're doing by God's will. If Ahmed Bin Hanbal tells you that he hadith logically has nothing wrong with it, because of hadith La Yu7ibuni Ila Mumin, so Ahmed bin Hanbal already made it clear to you, plus that you and I dont know whats the role of the Prophet and Wulat of Allah during day of judgement, so we cannot assume that so and so role doesnt suits them and reject the hadith just cuz we dont understand it, whereas ahmed bin hanbal tells you logically there is nothing wrong with it if we look at other narrations that makes the so called hadith logic. Now we had this discussion, a fair person will highlight the points by the other party and starts researching based on fairness, and so I will highlight points raised by you and others and also research, y not? I might learn something new from you and reach to some results, and you might learn something from us and reach to some results.

[shark307]

To clarify, we should research not only imama section, we should first focus on Tawhid teachings on every sect, for example abadhi and shia both as a whole agree that God is not Jism or body wal iyath billah, then comes nubuwa after the long research on Tawhid, shia believe that the prophet Pbuh is fully ma3m9um not just in terms of religion but everything, unlike sunna they believe that the prophet Pbuh is only ma39um in terms of religion, thats a long search too, then comes search of imama, then comes search of theory of fairness of all companians and the caliph syrtem were they all appointed the same way by shura or not. i.e. not just jumping into any topic

[BrAiKi]

Ofcourse I dont believe in it, and not a single shia. Most of those stories boout Shia's are brought up by Wahabi, sometimes it doesnt exists, sometimes its weak hadiths, sometimes they cut parts from hadith sometimes etc. You have to bring up a strong hadith cuz thats considered a logical evidence, you know how many narrators are there? you know that not all narrators are in same situation? some are liers, some they forget, some are true speaking and not too much forgetting, so logically its not right to use it as an evidence. When someone gives u hadith al ghadir as an evidence, he will tell you well its approved by ur side as over 6000 companion witnessed this hadith.. etc.
You might not believe it, but not a single Shia does? For God's sake then what was in the video that I brought? It was a lecture by a Shia and athe attendees were Shia. You can't say that not a single Shia believes that.



Ofcourse I dont believe in it, and not a single shia. Most of those stories boout Shia's are brought up by Wahabi, sometimes it doesnt exists, sometimes its weak hadiths, sometimes they cut parts from hadith sometimes etc. You have to bring up a strong hadith cuz thats considered a logical evidence, you know how many narrators are there? you know that not all narrators are in same situation? some are liers, some they forget, some are true speaking and not too much forgetting, so logically its not right to use it as an evidence. When someone gives u hadith al ghadir as an evidence, he will tell you well its approved by ur side as over 6000 companion witnessed this hadith.. etc.

You weren't given the job descriptions of the Prophets and the Imams, to know what roles suits them or not, our job is to receive orders from them, not to control what they're doing by God's will. If Ahmed Bin Hanbal tells you that he hadith logically has nothing wrong with it, because of hadith La Yu7ibuni Ila Mumin, so Ahmed bin Hanbal already made it clear to you, plus that you and I dont know whats the role of the Prophet and Wulat of Allah during day of judgement, so we cannot assume that so and so role doesnt suits them and reject the hadith just cuz we dont understand it, whereas ahmed bin hanbal tells you logically there is nothing wrong with it if we look at other narrations that makes the so called hadith logic. Now we had this discussion, a fair person will highlight the points by the other party and starts researching based on fairness, and so I will highlight points raised by you and others and also research, y not? I might learn something new from you and reach to some results, and you might learn something from us and reach to some results.


You were not given the full job description of the Prophets and the Imaams neither. If God decides to give them that ability in the Judgment day, so be it. But that doesn't give us the right to say that He will given that there is no proof. God might give the same ability to Umar as well if he wills it doesn't it? But that does not give anyone the right to say so. God might give you that ability too, if he wills it. But that does not give you the right to claim so if God hasn't declared it.
I hope you get my point.

Leave what is unkown for God and we may not speak about it because we do not know.
Who has seen the Throne of God to claim that al Hussien's name is wriiten on it? Nobody.
You might not have these in your sources, or you may have them but I fail to provide that from your sources. But Mentioning such things in lectures must have come from a certain point. Otherwise why are there so many scholars who claim such things about Al Hussien.
Even you have compared al Mahdi to Prophet Mohammed, saying that he will be given something that Prophet Mohammed himself didn't have.
Isn't that Ghulu too?
Or are you going to tell me that none of the Shia believes that as well?

[El Rey]

As I said, El Rey, for everything I believe, I can also argue against it. I could argue both sides in court. I feel that anyone who knows a subject matter in-depth can do the same.

All I ask is that you argue with knowledge.

So you're saying that my questions and argument are basing on no knowledge? Just coming from my head? I believe each question I asked is based on some research on the Shites sect and you know that.



[RIGHT]El Rey, please try to see the difference between Sunni's believes the Wahabi's believes, dont take ur religion from Wahabi's and Wahabi's characters are well known.

I already said I don't believe in sects. Am just a muslim taking what convinces my by the holy koran and our prophet's :PBUH: sunna. Nothing else. I can take from shia as well as others sects when I see them as logical and Islamically acceptable. But what do you think of the videos I posted regarding the shias cursing the prophet's companions RAA?! And how do you personally and as a sheei see the Caliphes? Like Umar let's say?




896 - حدثنيه أبو الحسن المصباحي حدثنا أبو القاسم علي بن أحمد بن واصل حدثنا عبد الله بن محمد بن عثمان حدثنا يعقوب بن إسحاق من ولد عباد بن العوام حدثنا يحيى بن عبد الحميد عن شريك ، عن الاعمش قال : حدثني أبو المتوكل الناجي . عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال : قال رسول الله (ص) : أذا كان يوم القيامة قال الله تعالى لمحمد وعلي : أدخلا الجنة من أحبكما وأدخلا النار من أبغضكما ، فيجلس علي على شفير جهنم فيقول لها : هذا لي وهذا لك ، وهو قوله : ألقيا في جهنم كل كفار عنيد .[/COLOR][/CENTER]

Astaghfir Allah :os .

So now going to heaven or hell depends on Ali's decision. Is this what you believe in?!

[shark307]

You might not believe it, but not a single Shia does? For God's sake then what was in the video that I brought? It was a lecture by a Shia and athe attendees were Shia. You can't say that not a single Shia believes that.



You were not given the full job description of the Prophets and the Imaams neither. If God decides to give them that ability in the Judgment day, so be it. But that doesn't give us the right to say that He will given that there is no proof. God might give the same ability to Umar as well if he wills it doesn't it? But that does not give anyone the right to say so. God might give you that ability too, if he wills it. But that does not give you the right to claim so if God hasn't declared it.
I hope you get my point.

Leave what is unkown for God and we may not speak about it because we do not know.
Who has seen the Throne of God to claim that al Hussien's name is wriiten on it? Nobody.
You might not have these in your sources, or you may have them but I fail to provide that from your sources. But Mentioning such things in lectures must have come from a certain point. Otherwise why are there so many scholars who claim such things about Al Hussien.
Even you have compared al Mahdi to Prophet Mohammed, saying that he will be given something that Prophet Mohammed himself didn't have.
Isn't that Ghulu too?
Or are you going to tell me that none of the Shia believes that as well?

Yes majority dont believe in it, and if you judge on speakers on Minbar, its agreed between maraji3 (if not all then most) that speakers of Minbar dont represent the whole sect, every speaker presents different knowledge, different evidences, different arguments, and in aqeeda a person is not suppose to follow like fiqh praying 4 Rakaa and no need to ask why is it 4, whereas aqeeda is based on evidences. In my point of view and dicussions, I see that every or most people whenever they attend any lecture they dont take the whole lecture, they take some points.

About the job description, yes I wasnt given the job description too and u werent, but the hadith of Ahmed bin Hanbal is between me and you, some job explainations by hadith and quran were given to us not all, so i'm claiming whatever is given, but you're denying whatever is given even if it was qualified by Ahmed bin Hanbal Imam of Hanabila, if you want to claim that Umar has a role you need an evidence like how I have presented an evidence that Prophet Mohamad PBUH and Imam Ali have roles. Hadiths are important to explain your religion and quran in details, as I mentioned such as rakkaat of prayers, haj details, aqeeda etc. otherwise a person would be lost, anyone can come up explaining verse of Quran by whatever matches his interests or understandings. thats why we believe in hadith al thaqalayn that we should hold into the Quran and Ahl Al Bait, as they are the right explainers of the Quran.

I come back again and I hope I dont come back again to this roles, having different roles doesnt means better, Prophet Noah was given an age of over 950 years, Prophet Yousuf was given position of the 2nd person in Egypt, Prophet Sulaiman was given Kingdom, so we cannot again claim that having different roles makes a person better than other. To me what is considered ghuluw is what El Rey mentioned that Jibril supports Umar over Prophet Mohamad PBUH, now if a Shia said that but changing Umar's name to Imam Ali, What would have happened? but ofcourse we never claim that Imam Ali teaches the Prophet wal iyath billah, Imam Ali is the student of Prophet. Plus if the Prophet gives roles to Al Mahdi from sunni qualified sources and many hadiths, you cannot claim that shia are making ghuluw where its mentioned in sunni sources.

I see the best thing for your own benefit (you might accept it or reject it, but its for your own good) I invite you to spend some time reading on Tawhid, Nubuwa, Imama, and fairness of Companions theory from differents sects point of view, then you'll have a better idea bout what really each sects believes in.

if you look at how did Islam reach us after Prophet Mohamad, Shia start from Imam Ali, and sunna start from Abu Bakr then going down to the other 3 caliphs. Afterthat shia received it from Al Hassan then Al Hussain, sunna received it from Muawya (thats the time hadiths were started, as it was not allowed to write hadiths during first 2 caliphs). As a summary our sources are all based on Ahl Al Bait bani Hashims, and the sunni source started from Prophet then 4 caliphs then Bani Umaya for a long time (and during that time Imam Ali was cursed and sweared at for more than 30 years, such as Mughira bin Shuba and Muawya, Imran bin Hattan :( and hadiths were controlled by Bani Ummaya), then going down to Abasis, this is a point that should be thought about as well.

[shark307]

So you're saying that my questions and argument are basing on no knowledge? Just coming from my head? I believe each question I asked is based on some research on the Shites sect and you know that.



I already said I don't believe in sects. Am just a muslim taking what convinces my by the holy koran and our prophet's :PBUH: sunna. Nothing else. I can take from shia as well as others sects when I see them as logical and Islamically acceptable. But what do you think of the videos I posted regarding the shias cursing the prophet's companions RAA?! And how do you personally and as a sheei see the Caliphes? Like Umar let's say?



Astaghfir Allah :os .

So now going to heaven or hell depends on Ali's decision. Is this what you believe in?!

I dont believe in cursing caliphs publicley, as some big maraji3 say it's 7aram Nayl from rumuz Ahl Al Sunna publicley, I believe in saying God curses whoever made itha2 from Mohamad wa Aal Mohamad.

إن الذين يؤذون الله ورسوله لعنهم الله في الدنيا والآخرة وأعد لهم عذابا مهينا

I see that Imam Ali was madhlum, and based on my research his relationship didnt seem good with the 3 caliphs, I believe in useful researches regarding the caliphs (ba7th mawdhu3i) through the qualified hadiths bout so and so happened from so and so character based on so and so qualified hadith or aya.

[BrAiKi]

_ ما جاء في تاريخ دمشق(301/42):
من طريق أبي حامد الحضرمي نا محمد بن منصور الطوسي قال سمعت أحمد بن حنبل وقد سأله رجل عن قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم (علي قسيم النار) فقال هذا حديث مضطرب طريقه عن الأعمش ولكن الحديث الذي ليس عليه لبس قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم (يا علي لا يحبك إلا مؤمن ولا يبغضك إلا منافق)
وقال الله عز وجل: إن المنافقين في الدرك الأسفل من النار
فمن أبغض عليا رضي الله عنه فهو في الدرك الأسفل من النار

2_ ما جاء في السنة للخلال(510/3):
تحت باب التغليظ على من كتب الأحاديث التي فيها طعن على أصحاب رسول الله
"أخبرني موسى بن حمدون قال ثنا حنبل قال سمعت أبا عبدالله يقول كان سلام بن أبي مطيع أخذ كتاب أبي عوانة الذي فيه ذكر أصحاب النبي فأحرق أحاديث الأعمش تلك

وأخبرني محمد بن علي قال ثنا مهنى قال سألت أحمد قلت حدثني خالد بن خداش قال قال سلام وأخبرني محمد بن علي قال ثنا يحيى قال سمعت خالد بن خداش قال جاء سلام بن أبي مطيع إلى أبي عوانة فقال هات هذه البدع التي قد جئتنا بها من الكوفة قال فأخرج إليه أبو عوانة كتبه فألقاها في التنور فسألت خالدا ما كان فيها قال حديث الأعمش عن سالم بن أبي الجعد عن ثوبان قال قال رسول الله استقيموا لقريش وأشباهه قلت لخالد وأيش ؟ قال حديث علي أنا قسيم النار قلت لخالد حدثكم به أبو عوانة عن الأعمش قال نعم

وكلام أحمد في قصة سلام مع أبي عوانة كثير مشهور


Ahmed Bin Hanbal did not approve that Hadeeth in the way you make it sound. I googled it and I saw that our Shia brothers use it a lot to argue and prove that this was Hadeeth was approved by him.

There is a difference between approving the Hadeeth that says "None but believers love Ali and None but Disbelievers hate Ali" and the other Hadeeth that says Ali will get to decide who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven.
Ahmad bin Hanbal approved the first Hadeeth, but not the latter.
And everybody loved Ali from Al Sahaba and acknowledged his position. It is only that back then they saw Abu Bakr fit for Chilapha, and he got ELECTED for that. Then came Umar, and he got ELECTED for that. Then Othman. and he got ELECTED for that. Then Ali, and he got ELECTED for that too.
It was the free will Al Sahaba back then because they clearly saw the difference between a leader and a knowledgeable person in religion.
Plus I do not really think that Ali did not have a good relationship with the 3 Calipha's who were succeeding him. Umar in many situations was corrected by Ali and if there was a tension between them he wouldn't have said "If it's not for Ali, Umar would have been doomed".

I believe the Shia stories regarding the Caliphate being taken by other than Ali unfairly are made up few hundered years after they all passed away. and it was made up by Ahl Al Fitna Wal Nifaaq.

[Reluctant]

Wanted to post two saheeh narrations from Shia books. As some people have misconceptions about what Shia Islam teaches. These are from Rijal al-Kashee:

172- حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن علي بن مهزيار، عن فضالة بن أيوب الأزدي، عن أبان بن عثمان، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول لعن الله عبد الله بن سبإ إنه ادعى الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) و كان و الله أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) عبدا لله طائعا، الويل لمن كذب علينا و إن قوما يقولون فينا ما لا نقوله في أنفسنا، نبرأ إلى الله منهم نبرأ إلى الله منهم.

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-rejal/rejal_kashi2/1.html

I heard Abu 'Abd Allaah (Ja'far al-Sadiq) saying:

"Allah curse 'Abd Allah ibn Sabaa, he claimed divinity/lordship for Ameer al-Mu'mineen (Imam 'Ali). But, by Allah, Ameer al-Mu'mineen was the voluntary slave of Allah. Woe to him who lies upon us, for there are people who say about us what we do not say about ourselves, we disassociate/clear ourselves to Allah from them, we disassociate ourselves to Allah from them."

173- و بهذا الإسناد، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، عن ابن أبي عمير. و أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن أبيه و الحسين بن سعيد، عن ابن أبي عمير عن هشام بن سالم، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، قال : قال علي بن الحسين (عليه السلام) لعن الله من كذب علينا، إني ذكرت عبد الله بن سبإ فقامت كل شعرة في جسدي، لقد ادعى أمرا عظيما ما له لعنه الله، كان علي (عليه السلام) و الله عبدا لله صالحا، أخو رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ما نال الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته لله و لرسوله، و ما نال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته.

'Ali ibn al-Hussein said:

"Allah curse those who lie upon us. I bring to mind 'Abd Allah ibn Sabaa and each hair on my body stands up, he has claimed something great, Allah curse him. 'Ali was, by Allah, a righteous slave of Allah, the brother of Rasool Allah. He did not earn esteem from Allah except with the obedience to Allah and His Messenger. And (similarly) the Messenger of Allah did not earn the esteem from Allah except with his obedience (to Allah).

[BrAiKi]

Why aren't those who idolize the 12 Imaams in masses & lectures stopped then by proving this hadeeth to them?

To me, saying that the throne of God's level is at the 12 imaam's feet sounds worse than saying that they are God-like. Because that is insulting God too. Were these scholars and the attendees not aware of this hadeeth and saying something that is basically leading to putting them among those whom Ali ibn Al Hussien had cursed?

Maybe, maybe not.

I think you will never get the whole image of what I am talking about until you live in Holy Qumm for a while baa7ith to see the inconsistencies between you what give us written in books and what is actually practiced by the majority of Shia.

[Reluctant]

I think you will never get the whole image of what I am talking about until you live in Holy Qumm for a while baa7ith to see the inconsistencies between you what give us written in books and what is actually practiced by the majority of Shia.

Assalaamu aleykum.

Hope you're doing well, BraAiKi.

I could not care less what anyone believes if it doesn't have proof behind it. The teachings are all that matter. That's all someone should care about.

These narrations are saheeh. The imaams are not divine. If you wish to bring the narrations you are concerned about, we can discuss them. But, I have never heard, "The throne of God's is at the 12 imaam's feet." And if such a narration exists, and is saheeh, it would have to be contextualized and interpreted with the other saheeh evidence in mind.

I have brought saheeh proof about the role and identity of the imaams in Shia Islam. If you have some questions, post the narrations that concern you and we can look at them.

Nothing matters except the teachings themselves. Not any contemporary practice or statements without proof. This is the only way in which we should evaluate religion.

[shark307]

Why aren't those who idolize the 12 Imaams in masses & lectures stopped then by proving this hadeeth to them?

To me, saying that the throne of God's level is at the 12 imaam's feet sounds worse than saying that they are God-like. Because that is insulting God too. Were these scholars and the attendees not aware of this hadeeth and saying something that is basically leading to putting them among those whom Ali ibn Al Hussien had cursed?

Maybe, maybe not.

I think you will never get the whole image of what I am talking about until you live in Holy Qumm for a while baa7ith to see the inconsistencies between you what give us written in books and what is actually practiced by the majority of Shia.

What is practiced by majority of Shia please?

What is there is Qumm that is so different from other places such as Najaf?
Schools of Scholars? Shrine of Imam Ridha's sister? alot of Scholars?

Did you live in Holy Qumm to advise someone else to live and look around?

If some Shia commit mistakes isnt it wrong to say majority of Shia do so?

if alot of Muslims lie and the Quran and Hadiths reject lying, is it fair for a non muslim to say dont look at their source just look at muslims behaviors?

If alot of Muslims go clubbing and drinking, that says that it's not haram?

When a non Muslim converts to Muslim he should see the trusted sources of Islam, not the behaviors of Muslims nowadays otherwise he'll be misguided like how you were misguided of shia.

[BrAiKi]

Shark03 calm down cheif. I have only mentioned Qumm because it is the only place that I am aware is classified as 'holy' in Iran ;) and since those lectures take place in Iran. That's why I have suggested that.

I told you before and again I'll tell you; difference in fiqh is always there even in the same section. But difference in 'aqeeda is slightly different from one section to another, except when it comes to our Shia brothers. I can conclude from baa7ith's ahadeeth and arguments that his way of practicing Shiaism does not have ghulu in it, unlike the other Shia members who are Shia by birth. But hey, that's just my opinion.

What is practiced by Shia that is not mentioned in your sahih ahadeeths:

- Beating yourself in the memorial of Al Hussien, injuring your head, chest and back with chains while weeping for his death.
- Muta'a marriage.
- Cursing of Omar, Abu Bakr & Aisha (RAA)
and to bring something that was posted in this thread by yourslef; the fact that Al Mahdi will be given previliges that Prophet Mohammed himself didn't have.

But of course, you can always prove me wrong and that these things are supproted by your sources of ahadeeth.

[shark307]

I can conclude from baa7ith's ahadeeth and arguments that his way of practicing Shiaism does not have ghulu in it

The Person who has Ghulu is the person who says that a normal person corrects the Prophet PBUh many times.

What is practiced by Shia that is not mentioned in your sahih ahadeeths:

- Beating yourself in the memorial of Al Hussien

Aisha was practicitng the same on the Prophet's death

injuring your head, chest and back with chains

This is a fiqh issue which isnt an agreed point between Shia Scholars.

while weeping for his death.

The Prophet PBUh cried on Imam Hussain before his death, and after his death according to Um Salama.


- Muta'a marriage.

Atleast it has been proved that it exists in Quran and Sihah even after the Prophet PBUH death and atleast there are 2 types of marriages only, unlike Zawaj Friends, Summer, Winter, Urfi, Misyar, Zawaj Niyat Talaq.. etc.


and to bring something that was posted in this thread by yourslef; the fact that Al Mahdi will be given previliges that Prophet Mohammed himself didn't have.

You keep repeating the same points even after getting answers which you couldnt reply on, which results in Mafi Fayda from answering you, because it'll lead to no where because the same points will be repeated again and again. (i.e. Iflas)

But of course, you can always prove me wrong and that these things are supproted by your sources of ahadeeth.

Al Humdillah We did.

[BrAiKi]

You see shark, debating with you is pointless because your answers are not supported.
For the sake of argument, let's say Aisha did beat her chest after the prophet's death. How does that prove or support shia doing the same? Or do you guys take your practices from Aisha now? I thought she was cursed.

So muta'a marriage was proved in the Quraan? Is that how you see Islam?
baa7ith, do you confirm that as being proved in the Quraan as well?
Gosh if I had that in my belief I would've stopped being a muslim long time ago, because that doesn't sound like God's judgment to me.

I don't want to get deeper in this and deviate from the topic, but Shark, really, when you want to prove something you do not say "Aisha did that" or "Umar did that". Nor saying "but the Quraan mentions that a prophet did it, therefore the 12 imaams do it too". Because that, my friend, does not prove anything.

[Reluctant]

So muta'a marriage was proved in the Quraan? Is that how you see Islam?
baa7ith, do you confirm that as being proved in the Quraan as well?


Assalaamu aleykum.

Whether you believe it to be right or wrong, everything that Shias believe can be proven to have a precedence from the early Muslims. There is nothing that Shias believe which does not have a precedence in the fiqh views of the sahaba or tabi'een. Shias believe in the tafseer of Ibn 'Abbas.

عبد الرزاق ، عن ابن جريج قال : أخبرني عطاء أنه سمع ابن عباس ، يراها الآن حلالا ، وأخبرني أنه كان يقرأ : " فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى أجل فآتوهن أجورهن " ، وقال ابن عباس في حرف إلى أجل . قال عطاء : وأخبرني من شئت ، عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال : " لقد كان أحدنا يستمتع بملء القدح سويقا " . وقال صفوان : هذا ابن عباس يفتي بالزنا فقال ابن عباس : " إني لا أفتي بالزنا أفنسي صفوان أم أراكة فوالله إن ابنها لمن ذلك أفزنا هو ؟ " قال : " واستمتع بها رجل من بني جمح

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=73&ID=1637&idfrom=13380&idto=13407&bookid=73&startno=2

عبد الرزاق ، عن ابن جريج ، عن عطاء قال : لأول من سمعت منه المتعة صفوان بن يعلى قال : أخبرني ، عن يعلى ، أن معاوية [ ص: 497 ] استمتع بامرأة بالطائف فأنكرت ذلك عليه ، فدخلنا على ابن عباس فذكر له بعضنا ، فقال له : " نعم " . فلم يقر في نفسي حتى قدم جابر بن عبد الله ، فجئناه في منزله فسأله القوم عن أشياء ، ثم ذكروا له المتعة ، فقال : " نعم ، استمتعنا على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وأبي بكر ، وعمر ، حتى إذا كان في آخر خلافة عمر ، استمتع عمرو بن حريث بامرأة - سماها جابر فنسيتها - فحملت المرأة فبلغ ذلك عمر فدعاها فسألها ، فقالت : نعم قال : من أشهد ؟ قال : عطاء لا أدري قالت : أمي أم وليها قال : فهلا غيرهما قال : خشي أن يكون دغلا ، الآخر ، قال عطاء ، وسمعت ابن عباس يقول : " يرحم الله عمر ما كانت المتعة إلا رخصة من الله عز وجل رحم بها أمة محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم فلولا نهيه عنها ما احتاج إلى الزنا إلا شقي " قال : كأني والله أسمع قوله : إلا شقي - عطاء القائل - قال عطاء : " فهي التي في سورة النساء : فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى كذا وكذا من الأجل على كذا وكذا ليس بتشاور " قال : " بدا لهما أن يتراضيا بعد الأجل وأن يتفرقا ، فنعم ، وليس بنكاح " .

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=73&ID=1637&idfrom=13380&idto=13407&bookid=73&startno=1

[shark307]

I will prove to you that you dont know what you're posting or dont have idea bout it but still you're debating bout it.


.. And everybody loved Ali from Al Sahaba and acknowledged his position. It is only that back then they saw Abu Bakr fit for Chilapha, and he got ELECTED for that. Then came Umar, and he got ELECTED for that. Then Othman. and he got ELECTED for that. Then Ali, and he got ELECTED for that too.

First of all not all of them got elected as what you're trying to make us understand.

I think I should highlight each caliphate choosings seperatley:

Abu Bakr: through Saqeefa of Bani Sa'ida directly after the Prophet PBUH passed away where there were some of Muhajirin and Ansar (and non of Bani Hashim was there, as Bani Hashim were busy washing the Prophet's PBUH body, Bani Hashim were suprised bout what happened after they finished washing)

Umar: Umar was appointed directly by Abu Bakr.

Othman: Umar has elected 6 candidates, out of those 6, one should be caliphate, and if they didnt agree some or all have to be killed (anyhow there are alot of details in this story, which I think its better for every person to check by himself).

Imam Ali: After Othman was killed by some companions such as Abu Bakr's son known as Mohamad, and 3amro Ibn Al 7amaq Al Khuza3i (you can research bout him and the other mantioned names), Abdul Rahman bin 3udes Al Balawy (One of the members of Bay3a of under the tree), afterthat the companions came and made the bay3a for Imam Ali (anyhow shia believe that Imam Ali was an Imam after the Prophet PBUH passed away, and the bay3a that happened to him was just for Khilafa Dhahiriya and not Imam and guider of Umma).

Now if you compare all the 4 situations, you wont find a single matching way, and not all of it was shura, whereas you mentioned that all of them were elected.

and you're actually surprised that zawaj mut3a is mentioned in Quran, and you'll leave islam if it was so, here you can read baa7ith's post (again you're debating bout somehting which you dont have a clue bout), same bout covering hair topic what Jeff pointed out bout ur way of convincing.

[BrAiKi]

Shark thinks that I do not know anything about religion. Well I'll be damned then :XD:

Cheif, that 'unfair' appointment of the Caliphate is according to how your history puts it only. Enough said.
I am not really bothered to get off topic in that regard because at the end you will play the usual song for us before you mysteriously disappear.

Baa7ith. Drinking Alcohol was also allowed in Islam and that got into steps until it became fully forbidden. This is the same case as the Muta'a marriage. It is not Omar (whom the Shia blame for almost EVERYTHING when it comes to their excuse in corruption in religion) but it was Prophet Mohammed.
Something that is worth of mentioning is that none of Shia friends claimed that it was true, they all said that Muta'a marriage is baseless according to Shia, but now that I see the sources that prove so, it makes me think maybe they were using 'taqqiya' while debating at that time, too!
As a matter of fact:
Zaydiya Shia do not approve of Muta'a Marriage.
Abathis do not approve of it.
And finally Sunna do not approve of it.

Religion aside, it is common sense, God gave us brains (which some members here refuse to utilize it) What good might come from Muta'a marriage? I see reports in Bahrain of how muta'a marriage messes up the society over there. Does God give a rule that messes up the society? If that how anyone believes then it's up to them.



رؤية الزيدية
يخالفون الشيعة الإثنا عشرية في زواج المتعة ويستنكرونه، والشيعة الزيدية يقولون كالجمهور بتحريم نكاح المتعة ويؤكدون أن ابن عباس رجع عن تحليله، وقد وضح علماء الزيدية وجهة نظرهم حول بطلان استحلال زواج المتعة في كتاب الأحكام في الحلال والحرام" للهادي (1/444)

رؤية الإباضية
ترفض الإباضية زواج المتعة.

رؤية أهل السنة والجماعة
ترى المذاهب الفقهية الأربع لأهل السنة أنها كانت حلالا فنسخت وحرمت ثم أحلت يوم فتح مكة ثم حرمت مرة أخرى [8]

ويستدلون بذلك على أحاديث منها:

عن الربيع بن سبرة الجهني أن أباه حدثه أنه كان مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: " يا أيها الناس إني قد كنت أذنت لكم في الاستمتاع من النساء وإن الله قد حرم ذلك إلى يوم القيامة فمن كان عنده منهن شيء فليخل سبيله ولا تأخذوا مما آتيتموهن شيئاً ". رواه مسلم (1406).
ويعتبر أهل السنة أن الاستدلال بالقرآن على مشروعية نكاح المتعة لا يصح لأن الموضع الوحيد فيه الذي يحتجون به عليه، لفظ متشابه وليس قطعي الدلالة محكماً، كما أن استحلال الفروج في الإسلام مسألة عظيمة جداً لا يصح التساهل فيها أبداً بحيث يقبل فيها من الأدلة ما تشابه. ويعتبرون أنه لا يوجد نص واحد في القرآن صريح الدلالة على نكاح المتعة، لذا فيقولون بعدم مشروعيته لأنه اتباع للمتشابه.[9]

يأتي تفسيرهم للآية أنها لم تذكر إلا نوعين من النكاح، أولا: ملك اليمين، ثانيا: هذا المعبر عنه (بالاستمتاع)، فإذا كان المقصود بالثاني هو نكاح المتعة فمعنى ذلك أن الزواج الدائم لا ذكر له في هذا الآيات وهذا غير معقول فلا بد من حمل اللفظ عليه دون غيره.


إن القرآن لما انتقل إلى ذكر ملك اليمين انتقل من الأصعب إلى الأسهل فقال (فمن لم يستطع طولاً أن ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات فمن ما ملكت أيمانكم [10])، وليس أصعب من نكاح الإماء إلا الزواج الدائم بالحرائر، فإن نكاح المتعة أسهل أنواع الأنكحة فليس هو المقصود بالآية.
ما ذكر في القرآن من شروط لهذا النكاح في قوله: (أن تبتغوا بأموالكم محصنين غير مسافحين [11])، ونكاح المتعة ليس القصد منه إلا سفح الماء وقضاء الشهوة وليس فيه إحصان أو حفظ للمرأة لا نفسياً ولا جسدياً ولا أسرياً، وكذلك الرجل.
[عدل] بعض الأدلة على تحريم زواج المتعة عند أهل السنة والجماعة
يرى أهل السنة والجماعة حرمة زواج المتعة، وهنا نسرد بعض التفصيل نقلا عن كتاب شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية "منهاج السنة النبوية في الرد على الرافضة والقدرية".

أولا : عدم وجود نص صريح في القرآن بحل زواج المتعة [12]
وأما متعة النساء المتنازع فيها، فليس في الاية نص صريح بحلها فإن الله قال: "وأحل لكم ما وراء ذلكم أن تبتغوا بأموالكم محصنين غير مسافحين فما استمتعتم به منهن فاتوهن أجورهن فريضة ولا جناح عليكم فيما تراضيتم به من بعد الفريضة إن الله كان عليما حكيما ومن لم يستطع منكم طولا أن ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات".[6]
فقول الله تعالى: "فما استمتعتم به منهن [6]" يتناول كل من دخل بها من النساء، فإنه أمر بأن يعطى جميع الصداق بخلاف المطلقة قبل الدخول التي لم يستمتع بها فإنها لا تستحق إلا نصفه وهذا كقول الله تعالى: "وكيف تأخذونه وقد أفضى بعضكم إلى بعض وأخذن منكم ميثاقا غليظا [13]" فجعل الإفضاء مع العقد موجبا لاستقرار الصداق يبين ذلك أنه ليس لتخصيص النكاح المؤقت بإعطاء الأجر فيه دون النكاح المؤبد معنى بل إعطاء الصداق كاملا في المؤبد أولى فلا بد أن تدل الاية على المؤبد إما بطريق التخصيص وإما بطريق العموم يدل على ذلك أنه ذكر بعد هذا نكاح الإماء فعلم أن ما ذكر كان في نكاح الحرائر مطلقا.
فإن قيل ففي قراءة طائفة من السلف "فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى أجل مسمى"، قيل أولا: ليست هذه القراءة متواترة وغايتها أن تكون كأخبار الآحاد ونحن لا ننكر أن المتعة أحلت في أول الإسلام لكن الكلام في دلالة القرآن على ذلك، الثاني: أن يقال هذا الحرف إن كان نزل فلا ريب أنه ليس ثابتا من القراءة المشهورة فيكون منسوخا ويكون نزوله لما كانت المتعة مباحة فلما حرمت نسخ هذا الحرف ويكون الأمر بالإيتاء في الوقت تنبيها على الإيتاء في النكاح المطلق، وغاية ما يقال إنهما قراءتان وكلاهما حق والأمر بالإيتاء في الاستمتاع إلى أجل مسمى واجب إذا كان ذلك حلالا، وإنما يكون ذلك إذا كان الاستمتاع إلى أجل مسمى حلالا، وهذا كان في أول الإسلام. فليس في الاية ما يدل على أن الاستمتاع بها إلى أجل مسمى حلال، فإنه لم يقل "وأحل لكم أن تستمتعوا بهن إلى أجل مسمى" بل قال: "فما استمتعتم به منهن فاتوهن أجورهن" فهذا يتناول ما وقع من الاستمتاع سواء كان حلالا أو كان في وطء شبهة، ولهذا يجب المهر في النكاح الفاسد بالسنة والاتفاق والمتمتع إذا إعتقد حل المتعة وفعلها فعليه المهر، وأما الاستمتاع المحرم فلم تتناوله الايه فإنه لو استمتع بالمرأة من غير عقد مع مطاوعتها لكان زنا ولا مهر فيه وإن كانت مستكرهة ففيه نزاع مشهور.
ثانيا: زواج المتعة حرمه محمد وليس عمر بن الخطاب [12]
وأما ما ذكره عالم شيعي يرد عليه شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية من نهي عمر عن متعة النساء، فقد ثبت عن النبي أنه حرم متعة النساء بعد الإحلال هكذا رواه الثقات في الصحيحين وغيرهما عن الزهري عن عبد الله والحسن ابنى محمد بن الحنفية عن أبيهما محمد بن الحنفية عن علي بن أبي طالب أنه قال لابن عباس لما أباح المتعة إنك إمرؤ تائه إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حرم المتعة ولحوم الحمر الأهلية عام خيبر، رواه عن الزهري أعلم أهل زمانه بالسنة وأحفظهم لها أئمة الإسلام في زمنهم مثل مالك بن أنس وسفيان بن عيينة وغيرهما ممن اتفق المسلمون على علمهم وعدلهم وحفظهم، ولم يختلف أهل العلم بالحديث في أن هذا حديث صحيح متلقى بالقبول ليس في أهل العلم من طعن فيه.
وكذلك ثبت في الصحيح أن الرسول حرمها في غزاة الفتح إلى يوم القيامة.
وقد تنازع رواة حديث علي، هل قوله عام خيبر توقيت لتحريم الحمر فقط أو له ولتحريم المتعة، فالأول قول ابن عيينة وغيره قالوا إنما حرمت عام الفتح، ومن قال بالاخر قال إنها حرمت ثم أحلت ثم حرمت، وادعت طائفة ثالثة أنها أحلت بعد ذلك ثم حرمت في حجة الوداع.
ثالثا : المسمتع بها ليست زوجة ولا ملك يمين، فإن الله إنما أباح في كتابه الزوجة وملك اليمين، بينما المتمتع بها ليست واحدة منهما. [14]
أما كونها ليست مملوكة فظاهر.
وأما كونها ليست زوجة فلانتفاء لوازم النكاح فيها، فإن من لوازم النكاح كونه سببا للتوارث وثبوت عدة الوفاة فيه والطلاق الثلاث وتنصيف المهر بالطلاق قبل الدخول وغير ذلك من اللوازم.
فإنها لو كانت زوجة لتوارثا ولوجبت عليها عدة الوفاة ولحقها الطلاق الثلاث فإن هذه أحكام الزوجة في كتاب الله، فلما انتفى عنها لوازم النكاح دل على انتفاء النكاح فإن انتفاء اللازم يقتضي انتفاء الملزوم والله إنما أباح في كتابه الأزواج وملك اليمين وحرم ما زاد على ذلك بقول الله تعالى : "والذين هم لفروجهم حافظون إلا على أزواجهم أو ما ملكت أيمانهن فأنهم غير ملومين فمن ابتغى وراء ذلك فأولئك هم العادون [15] ". والمسمتع بها بعد التحريم ليست زوجة ولا ملك يمين فتكون حراما بنص القران


N.B: In summary ; this quote in Arabic demonstrates the disapproval of Muta'a Marriage, and some of the sections in Islam's disapprovals of that too.

[Reluctant]

Salaam BrAiKi. You can believe whatever you want. Whatever conclusions in any area of life you come to, I wish you happiness. But, just try to understand the other side. Especially about an academic subject such as Islamic jurisprudence...this is an area of research. Sunnis and Shias both have a lot of evidence behind them. Every Shia view can be proven to have been held by at least one of the scholars from the sahaba or tabi'een. There's nothing foreign about Shia fiqh.

The view that mut'ah was banned by 'Umar is what Ibn 'Abbas himself said.

سمعت ابن عباس يقول : " يرحم الله عمر ما كانت المتعة إلا رخصة من الله عز وجل رحم بها أمة محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم فلولا نهيه عنها ما احتاج إلى الزنا إلا شقي

"I heard Ibn Abbas say: Allah forgive Umar, mut'ah was not but a concession from Allah, a mercy upon the ummah of Muhammad. Had it not been prohibited by him, no one would commit adultery except a wretched person."

This is saheeh, it is from one of the earliest fiqh sources in Islamic history--the Musannaf of 'Abd al-Razzaq. This isnaad is famous and very authentic...the isnaad is through the students of Ibn 'Abbas, who also practiced mut'ah.

Just try to understand the other side, BrAiKi. I understand yours. At the least, just try to study issues and research both sides. Study the Sunni hadeeths about the prohibition of mut'ah, look at their narrators, see if they make sense, etc. Just try to develop an objective understanding of issues.

Mut'ah was never like alcohol, the situations aren't synonymous, even according to Sunnis. The worst part of this thread is just the ignorance. Even if you don't agree, at least you can understand the rationale of the other side, from an impartial perspective. I understand the Sunni view of issues, I understand the Shia view. You should try to do the same. I'm not even talking about religion, dude. About anything in life. The point now isn't about if it's right or wrong, I'm not addressing this. Just try to get your facts straight and come to a comprehensive understanding of the issue from all sides, as it does not seem you know the dynamics of the issue from the Sunni side as well.

[shark307]

Salaam BrAiKi. You can believe whatever you want. Whatever conclusions in any area of life you come to, I wish you happiness. But, just try to understand the other side. Especially about an academic subject such as Islamic jurisprudence...this is an area of research. Sunnis and Shias both have a lot of evidence behind them. Every Shia view can be proven to have been held by at least one of the scholars from the sahaba or tabi'een. There's nothing foreign about Shia fiqh.

The view that mut'ah was banned by 'Umar is what Ibn 'Abbas himself said.

سمعت ابن عباس يقول : " يرحم الله عمر ما كانت المتعة إلا رخصة من الله عز وجل رحم بها أمة محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم فلولا نهيه عنها ما احتاج إلى الزنا إلا شقي

"I heard Ibn Abbas say: Allah forgive Umar, mut'ah was not but a concession from Allah, a mercy upon the ummah of Muhammad. Had it not been prohibited by him, no one would commit adultery except a wretched person."

This is saheeh, it is from one of the earliest fiqh sources in Islamic history--the Musannaf of 'Abd al-Razzaq. This isnaad is famous and very authentic...the isnaad is through the students of Ibn 'Abbas, who also practiced mut'ah.

Just try to understand the other side, BrAiKi. I understand yours. At the least, just try to study issues and research both sides. Study the Sunni hadeeths about the prohibition of mut'ah, look at their narrators, see if they make sense, etc. Just try to develop an objective understanding of issues.

Mut'ah was never like alcohol, the situations aren't synonymous, even according to Sunnis. The worst part of this thread is just the ignorance. Even if you don't agree, at least you can understand the rationale of the other side, from an impartial perspective. I understand the Sunni view of issues, I understand the Shia view. You should try to do the same. I'm not even talking about religion, dude. About anything in life. The point now isn't about if it's right or wrong, I'm not addressing this. Just try to get your facts straight and come to a comprehensive understanding of the issue from all sides, as it does not seem you know the dynamics of the issue from the Sunni side as well.

Excellent and Logical clarification, Well Said.

I'd like to add 2 hadiths from Sahih Muslim bout the same you mentioned above from a different angle.



‏- حدثني ‏ ‏محمد بن رافع ‏ ‏، حدثنا : ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏، ‏أخبرنا :‏ ‏إبن جريج ‏، ‏أخبرني :‏ ‏أبو الزبير ‏ ‏قال : سمعت ‏ ‏جابر بن عبد الله ‏يقولا ‏: كنا ‏‏نستمتع ‏بالقبضة ‏ ‏من التمر والدقيق الأيام على عهد رسول الله ‏(ص) ‏ ‏وأبي بكر ‏ ‏حتى نهى عنه ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏في شأن ‏ ‏عمرو بن حريث .



- حدثنا : ‏ ‏حامد بن عمر البكراوي ‏، حدثنا : ‏عبد الواحد يعني إبن زياد ‏، عن ‏عاصم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبي نضرة ‏قال : ‏كنت عند ‏ ‏جابر بن عبد الله ‏ ‏فأتاه آت فقال : ‏ ‏إبن عباس ‏ ‏وإبن الزبير ‏ ‏إختلفا في ‏المتعتين ‏‏فقال ‏جابر ‏ : ‏فعلناهما مع رسول الله (ص) ‏ ‏ثم نهانا عنهما ‏عمر ‏فلم نعد لهما.



also I'd like to add that Muta is so different from Al Cohol (those 2 examples dont match), Al Cohol isnt something that was brought up by Islam and then banned, it was something that Islam started banding by stages according to sunnis. but Muta is something that didnt exist then it was brought up by the Prophet PBUH (that means whoever says its wal iyath billah Zina or mess up, should question how come Islam brings up a messing up stuff for some time? it shouldnt bring it up from the beggining?)

[Neena]

Okay, lets go back to the prophets last speech which he gave which Dated and delivered in : 632 A.C., 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat.
"On that day, he had advised all the Muslim few things and on that day he as well told them : “O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.”

Saying that, it gives us a very clear statement and the prophet has left us the Quran, and his Sunnah, and those are the 2 things that we have to follow, and nothing else.

Do you know how many Companion of the Prophet [pbuh] were? If I am not mistaken around 64, all the way from Khalifa Abu Baker, till Zaid Ibn Thabit.

Its well known that Abu Baker el sedik was the closest person to the prophet “PBUH” and not only has the prophet spoke to him in his Hadiths, but he was mentioned so many times in the quran.

Anyway, I honestly don’t understand why would you say that 12 Imam somehow are suppose to be appointed by Allah? ? They are not prophets to start with, and no one was really appointed by god accept the prophets, and ofcourse as we know because of Abu Baker being the closest and best friend of the Prophet, Allah SWT, has granted him the best of best, after the prophets death, and in the after life.

Just to clarify things here, the Shea’s believe on the 12 Imam’s and they believe that they were suppose to be given the Khalifa’s? and they don’t believe in Khalifa Abu Baker?! Is that right?!

[shark307]

Cheif, that 'unfair' appointment of the Caliphate is according to how your history puts it only. Enough said.
I am not really bothered to get off topic in that regard because at the end you will play the usual song for us before you mysteriously disappear.

First of all my point wasnt bout 'unfair'. My point was that all the 4 became Calpihs not in the same way i.e. not the Shura system, and non of them matches the other in the way of becoming the Caliph, and if you do not agree, then prove me wrong and prove me that all the 4 were elected through Shura system, and it was my way of putting the history only.

Sometimes people got work and engaged with some stuff which forces them to dissapear and come when they find the right time for it.

[shark307]

Okay, lets go back to the prophets last speech which he gave which Dated and delivered in : 632 A.C., 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat.
"On that day, he had advised all the Muslim few things and on that day he as well told them : “O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.”


Did you check the root of this hadith? is it authenticated? or Book of God and Ahlulbayt is considered much more authenticated?

[Neena]

Did you check the root of this hadith? is it authenticated? or Book of God and Ahlulbayt is considered much more authenticated?

If i am not mistaken Shark, that particulre Hadith that I am so sure its highly authenticated. I have heard it being read over the TV in some Religion talk show, and in some lectures that I attended before at the mosque etc...

Plus I read this hadith before sometime online, and its a saheeh hadith.

Can someone else colaborate more.

[Neena]

Okay let me try and understand something here, what is the argument here excatly? Is it on who should have been given the Khalifa, or the 12 Imam "like the she'a proclaim" they should have been chosen by God?!

I am starting to miss the point of this thread already!

[shark307]

If i am not mistaken Shark, that particulre Hadith that I am so sure its highly authenticated. I have heard it being read over the TV in some Religion talk show, and in some lectures that I attended before at the mosque etc...

Plus I read this hadith before sometime online, and its a saheeh hadith.

Can someone else colaborate more.

the sources you mentioned is not considered an evidence, this hadith can barley have one authenticated source, most are missed roots or cut.

Whereas the powerful root hadith and highly authenticated is not being mentioned on TV cuz it has ahlulbayt in it.

this hadith is from Sahih Muslim and this hadith has over 250 sources unlike book of God and Sunnati hadith which barley can have one authenticated source:

وحدثنا : ‏ ‏محمد بن بكار بن الريان ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حسان يعني إبن إبراهيم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏سعيد بن مسروق ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏يزيد بن حيان ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏زيد بن أرقم ‏ ‏، عن النبي ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏وساق الحديث ‏ ‏بنحوه بمعنى حديث ‏ ‏زهير ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبوبكر بن أبي شيبة ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏محمد بن فضيل ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏، وحدثنا : ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏جرير ‏ ‏كلاهما ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبي حيان ‏ ‏بهذا الإسناد ‏ ‏نحو حديث ‏ ‏إسماعيل ‏ ‏وزاد في حديث ‏ ‏جرير ‏ ‏كتاب الله فيه الهدى والنور من إستمسك به وأخذ به كان على الهدى ومن أخطأه ضل ‏، حدثنا : ‏ ‏محمد بن بكار بن الريان ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حسان يعني إبن إبراهيم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏سعيد وهو إبن مسروق ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏يزيد بن حيان ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏زيد بن أرقم ‏ ‏قال : ‏دخلنا عليه فقلنا له : لقد رأيت خيراًًً لقد صاحبت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏وصليت خلفه وساق الحديث بنحو حديث ‏ ‏أبي حيان ‏ ‏غير أنه قال : ألا وإني تارك فيكم ‏ ‏ثقلين ‏‏أحدهما كتاب الله عز وجل هو حبل الله من أتبعه كان على الهدى ومن تركه كان على ضلالة وفيه ، فقلنا : من أهل بيته نساؤه ، قال : لا وأيم الله إن المرأة تكون مع الرجل ‏العصر ‏من الدهر ، ثم يطلقها فترجع إلى أبيها وقومها أهل بيته أصله ‏ ‏وعصبته ‏ ‏الذين حرموا الصدقة بعده


You can try researching roots of hadith of Book of God and Sunnati, and also hadith Book of God and Ahlulbayt and compare which of the 2 hadiths is suppose to be broadcasted.

[shark307]

Okay let me try and understand something here, what is the argument here excatly? Is it on who should have been given the Khalifa, or the 12 Imam "like the she'a proclaim" they should have been chosen by God?!

I am starting to miss the point of this thread already!

Actually the thread was started by El Rey and Aba Thar with the hadiths of 12 Imams, and the questions changed the topic many times.

[BrAiKi]

You see Baa7ith, you're telling me that the hadith you provided is sahih, and according to Sunna's, this practice was forbidden by Prophet Mohammed not Umar. And that hadith is claimed to be sahih too.

وأما ما ذكره عالم شيعي يرد عليه شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية من نهي عمر عن متعة النساء، فقد ثبت عن النبي أنه حرم متعة النساء بعد الإحلال هكذا رواه الثقات في الصحيحين وغيرهما عن الزهري عن عبد الله والحسن ابنى محمد بن الحنفية عن أبيهما محمد بن الحنفية عن علي بن أبي طالب أنه قال لابن عباس لما أباح المتعة إنك إمرؤ تائه إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حرم المتعة ولحوم الحمر الأهلية عام خيبر، رواه عن الزهري أعلم أهل زمانه بالسنة وأحفظهم لها أئمة الإسلام في زمنهم مثل مالك بن أنس وسفيان بن عيينة وغيرهما ممن اتفق المسلمون على علمهم وعدلهم وحفظهم، ولم يختلف أهل العلم بالحديث في أن هذا حديث صحيح متلقى بالقبول ليس في أهل العلم من طعن فيه.
وكذلك ثبت في الصحيح أن الرسول حرمها في غزاة الفتح إلى يوم القيامة.
وقد تنازع رواة حديث علي، هل قوله عام خيبر توقيت لتحريم الحمر فقط أو له ولتحريم المتعة، فالأول قول ابن عيينة وغيره قالوا إنما حرمت عام الفتح، ومن قال بالاخر قال إنها حرمت ثم أحلت ثم حرمت، وادعت طائفة ثالثة أنها أحلت بعد ذلك ثم حرمت في حجة الوداع.


Now, not only Sunna have that forbidden according to their sources, the zaidiya Shia and Ibadhies do too. Basically, the majority of Islamic sections disapprove it. Doesn't that tell you anything?

Putting the sources aside, since this is a fiqh issue and not 'aqeeda, it is basic common sense. The practice of Muta'a marriage is just not right, even an athiest can tell this, mind you a religious person. The aftermath of Muta'a marriage can be seen in Bahrain and in Iran. Not only that, this opens other issues too. Some Shia Scholars go deeper into the muta'a and recommend having it in 'groups' rather than 1-on-1. I am quite sure that there aren't any Shia sources to support this fatwa. But the door has been opened to one bida'a (innovation) and that leads to one another.
God said in the Qura'an:


وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا لِتَسْكُنُوا إِلَيْهَا

and that is the main point of marriage, not for having sex for a short period of time.
But of course, at the end of the day, I am not here to change your belief. If you choose to believe it is part of what Islam has brought to world, so be it.

This is my last post in this regard as I have already deviated from the topic.

[Reluctant]

You see Baa7ith, you're telling me that the hadith you provided is sahih, and according to Sunna's, this practice was forbidden by Prophet Mohammed not Umar. And that hadith is claimed to be sahih too.

رواه الثقات في الصحيحين وغيرهما عن الزهري


Exactly. Which is why you should research the topic and actually try to understand it in all its facets. I don't care what conclusion you come to...that wasn't the point of my post. I'm not trying to convince you of what to believe. I am simply trying to demonstrate that every aspect of Shia fiqh has a basis among the fiqh of early Islam. Fiqh is a research-based discipline. It is about analysis and impartiality.

If you want a starting point, research the underlined person and his role in the Sunni ahadeeth about the prohibition of mut'ah. I don't care what conclusion you come to, I just wish you argued with knowledge and had an impartial attitude towards research.

[Lacrymosa]

Thanks for that but I already know the history of sects. I just wanted to discuss the 12 imams and ahl albait semi-prophethood that Abu Thar brought up.

I have never thought of Imams or ahl albait. :hmm: I just know Allah and his prophet:PBUH:. :sunsmile: Imams and ahl albait should not be a big deal and also, I have never heard of them. :think:

[Neena]

well Shark, if you believe the hadith I posted was false, not saheeh whatever u would want to call it, than I guess you can prove me wrong, as far as I am concern, its a SAHEEH Hadith!

12 Imam to be chosen by ALLAH, that does not make any sense, they are not prophets to be chosen by god.

PPL stick to the topic, u want to talk about anything else, open a thread!

[shark307]

well Shark, if you believe the hadith I posted was false, not saheeh whatever u would want to call it, than I guess you can prove me wrong, as far as I am concern, its a SAHEEH Hadith!

12 Imam to be chosen by ALLAH, that does not make any sense, they are not prophets to be chosen by god.

PPL stick to the topic, u want to talk about anything else, open a thread!

you didnt ask for alot.

This hadith has 4 main ways.

2 through Mustadrak, 1 through Khateeb Baghdadi, 1 through Abu Al Shaikh.

Mustadrak one has Ikrimi on it who is considered a lier.

Mustadrak two has Salih bin Moosa Al Talhi, who is dissaproved by many scholars such as Bukhari, Nisai, Abu Naeem and Abu Hatim.

Khateeb Baghdadi his hadith has Saif bin Omar Al Tamimi a famous lier too, who is dissaproved by Abu Hatim, Ibn Hatim, Dar Al Qutni, Al Hakim, Abu Naeem.

Abu Al Shaikh hadith has Hisham bin Salman in its root, again dissaproved by many such as Al Nisai, Ibn Masoud, Dar Al Qatni.

those are the 4 main ways which are all dissaproved (the rest doesnt have roots in them), and if new scholars (Mutakhrin) come and say its Sahih, there is no use if the old scholars (Mutqadmin) dont approve it.


But hadith Book of God and Ahlulbayt is not just Saheeh, its considered the highest level which has been delivered by huge number of companions.

If 12 Imams doesnt makes sense for you, that doesnt necessarley says that the Prophet didnt appoint them, and if you check the thread from the beggining you'll be able to locate the sources of the 12 Imams hadith which cannot be dissaproved by anyone. Moreover some people found its not logical that a poor man can be a Prophet, rather than that its logical that a Prophet should be a rich man, but their logic or sense didnt change anything.

[shark307]

I have never thought of Imams or ahl albait. :hmm: I just know Allah and his prophet:PBUH:. :sunsmile: Imams and ahl albait should not be a big deal and also, I have never heard of them. :think:

A human being learns new things daily, for every new information a person feels thats its his first time hearing it, but that doesnt means its not acceptable, this is called learning.


and if Ahlulbayt is not a big deal for you, I think the Quran and the Prophet PBUh totally disagree with you.

Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you."

قل لا أسألكم عليه أجرا إلا المودة في القربى



Then whoever disputes with you concerning him ('Isâ (Jesus)) after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, (i.e. 'Isâ (Jesus)) being a slave of Allâh, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allâh upon those who lie."

Our sons = Al Hassan and Al Hussain
our women = Only Fatima Al Zahra Only
Ourselves = Imam Ali bin Abi Talib

Where's your prove shark?

All Tafaseer, if not all then most, this is pasted from Ibn Kathir (part of it as its long, if u dont trust my copy paste u can search for it by your self):



فمن حاجك فيه من بعد ما جاءك من العلم فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ونساءنا ونساءكم وأنفسنا وأنفسكم ثم نبتهل فنجعل لعنة الله على الكاذبين

لأن الزهري قال : كان أهل نجران أول من أدى الجزية إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وآية الجزية إنما أنزلت بعد الفتح وهي قوله تعالى قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر الآية وقال أبو بكر بن مردويه : حدثنا سليمان بن أحمد حدثنا أحمد بن داود المكي حدثنا بشر بن مهران حدثنا محمد بن دينار عن داود بن أبي هند عن الشعبي عن جابر قال : قدم على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم العاقب والطيب فدعاهما إلى الملاعنة فواعداه على أن يلاعناه الغداة قال : فغدا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأخذ بيد علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين ثم أرسل إليهما فأبيا أن يجيبا وأقرا له بالخراج قال : فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم " والذي بعثني بالحق لو قالا : لا لأمطر عليهم الوادي نارا " قال جابر : وفيهم نزلت " ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ونساءنا ونساءكم وأنفسنا وأنفسكم " قال جابر " أنفسنا وأنفسكم " رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وعلي بن أبي طالب" وأبناءنا " الحسن والحسين " ونساءنا " فاطمة.


So Ahl Al Bait is not a big deal?

[Lacrymosa]

Astaghfirullah! -_-


Can I get this verse in Arabic please? :think:


Then whoever disputes with you concerning him ('Isâ (Jesus)) after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, (i.e. 'Isâ (Jesus)) being a slave of Allâh, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allâh upon those who lie."

[shark307]

Astaghfirullah! -_-


Can I get this verse in Arabic please? :think:

It's already there with the blue font

فمن حاجك فيه من بعد ما جاءك من العلم فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ونساءنا ونساءكم وأنفسنا وأنفسكم ثم نبتهل فنجعل لعنة الله على الكاذبين

This ayaa is well known as Ayat Al Mubahala




صحيح مسلم - فضائل الصحابة - من فضائل علي ع


- حدثنا : ‏ ‏قتيبة بن سعيد ‏ ‏ومحمد بن عباد ‏ ‏وتقارباً في اللفظ ‏ ‏قالا ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حاتم وهو إبن إسماعيل ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏بكير بن مسمار ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد بن أبي وقاص ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال : ‏أمر ‏ ‏معاوية بن أبي سفيان ‏ ‏سعداًً ‏، ‏فقال : ما منعك أن تسب ‏ ‏أبا التراب ‏، ‏فقال : أما ما ذكرت ثلاثاًً قالهن له رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏فلن أسبه لأن تكون لي واحدة منهن أحب إلي : من ‏ ‏حمر النعم ‏ ‏سمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏يقول له ‏ ‏خلفه ‏ ‏في بعض مغازيه : فقال له ‏ ‏علي ‏: ‏يا رسول الله ‏ ‏خلفتني ‏ ‏مع النساء والصبيان ، فقال له رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏: ‏أما ‏ ‏ترضى أن تكون مني بمنزلة ‏ ‏هارون ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏إلاّ أنه لا نبوة بعدي ، وسمعته يقول يوم ‏ ‏خيبر :‏ ‏لأعطين الراية رجلاًًً يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله ، قال : فتطاولنا لها ، فقال : إدعوا لي ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏فأتي به ‏ ‏أرمد ، ‏فبصق في عينه ودفع الراية إليه ففتح الله عليه ، ولما نزلت هذه الآية ‏: ‏فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ‏ ، دعا رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏علياًً ‏ ‏وفاطمة ‏ ‏وحسناًً ‏ ‏وحسيناًًً ‏(ع) ، ‏فقال : اللهم هؤلاء أهلي.




مسند أحمد - مسند العشرة .. - مسند أبي إسحاق


‏- حدثنا : ‏ ‏قتيبة بن سعيد ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حاتم بن إسماعيل ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏بكير بن مسمار ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال : ‏أسمعت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏يقول له وخلفه في بعض مغازيه : فقال علي ‏: ‏أتخلفني مع النساء والصبيان ، قال : يا ‏ ‏علي ‏ ‏أما ‏ ‏ترضى أن تكون مني بمنزلة ‏ ‏هارون ‏ ‏من ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏إلاّ أنه لا نبوة بعدي ، وسمعته يقول يوم ‏ ‏خيبر ‏: ‏لأعطين ‏ ‏الراية ‏ ‏رجلاًًً يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله ‏ ‏فتطاولنا ‏ ‏لها ، فقال : إدعوا لي ‏ ‏علياًًً ‏ ‏فأتي به ‏ ‏أرمد ، ‏فبصق في عينه ودفع الراية إليه ففتح الله عليه ، ولما نزلت هذه الآية :‏ ‏ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ‏، ‏دعا رسول الله ‏ ‏(ص)‏ ‏علياًًً ‏ ‏وفاطمة ‏ ‏وحسناًً ‏ ‏وحسيناًًً (ع) ‏، ‏فقال : اللهم هؤلاء أهلي





الحاكم - معرفة علوم الحديث - ذكر النوع السابع من علوم الحديث


حدثنا : علي بن عبد الرحمن بن عيسى الدهقان بالكوفة ، قال : ، حدثنا : الحسين بن الحكم الحبري ، قال : ، ثنا : الحسن بن الحسين العرني قال : ، ثنا : حبان بن علي العنزي ، عن الكلبي ، عن أبي صالح ، عن إبن عباس في قوله عز وجل : فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ونساءنا ونساءكم ، إلى قوله : الكاذبين ، نزلت على رسول الله (ص) وعلي (ع) : نفسه ، ونساءنا ونساءكم : في فاطمة (ع) ، وأبناءنا وأبناءكم : في حسن وحسين (ع) ، والدعاء على الكاذبين ، نزلت في العاقب والسيد وعبد المسيح وأصحابهم ، قال الحاكم : وقد تواترت الأخبار في التفاسير ، عن عبد الله بن عباس ، وغيره أن رسول الله (ص) أخذ يوم المباهلة بيد علي ، وحسن ، وحسين (ع) وجعلوا فاطمة (ع) وراءهم ، ثم قال : هؤلاء أبناؤنا وأنفسنا ونساؤنا ، فهلموا أنفسكم وأبناءكم ونساءكم ثم نبتهل فنجعل لعنة الله على الكاذبين.


أبناءنا = الحسن والحسين
نساؤنا = فاطمة الزهراء
أنفسنا = علي بن أبي طالب
(علي نفس النبي ص بتعبير هذه الآية)

[Lacrymosa]

Thank you! And what is their importance? :think: --- It's not something I believe in, but I'm curious.

[Reluctant]

I have never thought of Imams or ahl albait. :hmm: I just know Allah and his prophet:PBUH:. :sunsmile: Imams and ahl albait should not be a big deal and also, I have never heard of them. :think:


Thank you! And what is their importance? :think: --- It's not something I believe in, but I'm curious.

Assalaamu aleykum Lacrymosa. The first three people who Shias consider to be imaams are 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, and his sons al-Hassan and al-Hussein--the grandsons of the Prophet (pbuh). They were alive during the Prophet's life and the Prophet spoke a lot about them, so it's important to know what he said about them. Here are some things which might pique your interest and get you to want to research more about them.

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم الحسن والحسين سيدا شباب أهل الجنة وأبوهما خير منهما

http://arabic.islamicweb.com/books/albani.asp?id=2093

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said: Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein are the masters of the youth of jannah, and their father is better than them."

Not only will Imam 'Ali be in jannah, but his status will be greater than those who are the master's of a certain segment of jannah. His status in jannah will be very high. And, his sons will have a very high status.

ِAlso, Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet, was the wife of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, and the mother of al-Hassan and al-Hussein. In Saheeh al-Bukhari, it says that she will be the master of the women of jannah:

3667 ـ فقالت ما كنت لأفشي سر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى قبض النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فسألتها فقالت أسر إلى ‏"‏ إن جبريل كان يعارضني القرآن كل سنة مرة، وإنه عارضني العام مرتين، ولا أراه إلا حضر أجلي، وإنك أول أهل بيتي لحاقا بي ‏"‏‏.‏ فبكيت فقال ‏"‏ أما ترضين أن تكوني سيدة نساء أهل الجنة ـ أو نساء المؤمنين ‏"‏‏.‏ فضحكت لذلك‏.‏

http://www.al-eman.com/hadeeth/viewchp.asp?BID=13&CID=126#s2

So, if she is the master of the women of jannah, it would be pertinent to understand her significance, and the significance of the ahl al-bait in Islam, if this high status is afforded to them.

This is one thing which might make you want to understand their significance in Islam.

Wa assalaamu aleykum

[Lacrymosa]

OK thank you baa7ith. :) They are being good people does not mean we have to praise them. :yes:

[shark307]

Thanks alot ba7ith for your post. Anyhow I'll continue with the importance of Ahl al bayt.

I'll start with loving and hating Ahl al bait. Hating Ahl Al Bait La Samah Allah makes a person Nasibi, i.e. these below hadiths which i will post shows that whoever hates Ahl Al Bait no place for him in heaven:

ما أخرجه الحاكم النيسابوري في المستدرك 3/162 عن أبي سعيد الخدري، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: والذي نفسي بيده لا يبغضنا أهل البيت أحد إلا أدخله النار.
قال الحاكم : هذا حديث صحيح على شرط مسلم ولم يخرجاه.

وأخرجه ابن حبان في صحيحه 15/435 وقال المعلق: إسناده حسن.
وقد جعله ابن حبان في صحيحه تحت عنوان : ذكر إيجاب الخلود في النار لمبغض أهل بيت المصطفى (ص).
ومنها: ما أخرجه الحاكم في المستدرك 3/161، عن عبد الله بن عباس رضي الله عنهما، أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم قال: يا بني عبد المطلب إني سألت الله لكم ثلاثاً.... إلى أن قال: فلو أن رجلاً صفن بين الركن والمقام، فصلى وصام ثم لقي الله وهو مبغض لآل بيت محمد دخل النار.

قال الحاكم: هذا حديث حسن صحيح على شرط مسلم ولم يخرجاه. ووافقه الذهبي.
وأخرج الإمام أحمد في فضائل الصحابة 2/661 بسنده عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: من أبغضنا أهل البيت فهو منافق.

Here we have seen how important it is to not hate Ahl Al Bait, now lets have a look from Quran how important it is not just to love Ahl Al Bait and keep quite, but to show also how you love them, this is the verse:

ذلك الذي يبشر الله عباده الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات قل لا أسألكم عليه أجرا إلا المودة في القربى ومن يقترف حسنة نزد له فيها حسنا إن الله غفور شكور

That is (the Paradise) whereof Allâh gives glad tidings to His slaves who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds. Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you." And whoever earns a good righteous deed, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (the deeds of those who are obedient to Him).

The word Mawwada is not love only, but it means showing the love.

This is about showing love towards Ahl Al Bait.

[shark307]

I'll continue my post about the importance of Ahl Al Bait.

There is a hadith by the Prophet PBUH where he says:
"أوتينا جوامع الكلم"

i.e. the Prophet PBUH if he says a small sentence, this small sentence has alot of meanings. For example the Prophet PBUH says: صوموا تصحوا i.e. Fasting is healthy or fast for becoming healthy. Now if a person thinks about this hadith deepley he can not just write a page but a book, showing all the relationship between health and fasting.

This was an example, now there is an authenticated hadith that the Prophet PBUH says:

علي مع القرآن والقرآن مع علي لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض
i.e. Ali is with the Quran and Quran is with Ali, they'll never be seperated till the reach a place in day of judgement called al Hawdh

If a person thinks deepley about this hadith, there are alot of outcomes.

The Quran is a book that doesnt comes with Baa6il or wrongness out of it, according to this hadith that makes Ali too because Quran is with Ali and Ali is with the Quran. Ali is the speaking Quran. Quran is Haq therefore Ali is Haq..etc.

Thats it about "أوتينا جوامع الكلم"

[Lacrymosa]

Pfff, you better prioritize prophet Mohammed to be haq, not Ali... :o

[shark307]

Pfff, you better prioritize prophet Mohammed to be haq, not Ali... :o

I dont understand what does that have to do with Priortizing Porphet Mohamad PBUH. No one is claiming that La Samah Allah Imam Ali says something then Jibril supports his saying on Prophet Mohamad PBUH, nor we say that Imam Ali teaches Prophet Mohamad PBUH, we say that Imam Ali is the student of Prophet Mohamad PBUH, and It takes alot to understand that, as its narrated that Imam Ali said: I'm a servant of Prophet Mohamad PBUH أنا عبد من عبيد محمد

Check thess hadiths:



مستدرك الحاكم - كتاب معرفة الصحابة (ر) - ذكر إسلام أمير المؤمنين علي (ع)


أخبرنا : أحمد بن كامل القاضي ، ثنا : أبو قلابة ، ثنا : أبو عتاب سهيل بن حماد ، ثنا : المختار بن نافع التميمي ، ثنا : أبو حيان التيمي ، عن أبيه ، عن علي (ر) قال : قال رسول الله (ص) : رحم الله علياًً اللهم أدر الحق معه حيث دار




إبن حجر - المطالب العالية - كتاب المناقب


وقال أبو يعلى : ، ثنا : محمد بن عباد ، ثنا : أبو سعيد ، عن صدقة بن الربيع ، عن عمارة بن غزية ، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي سعيد ، عن أبيه ، قال : كنت عند بيت النبي (ص) في نفر من المهاجرين والأنصار ، فخرج علينا رسول الله (ص) ، فقال : ألا أخبركم بخياركم ؟ ، قالوا : بلى ، قال : فإن خياركم الموفون المطيبون ، إن الله يحب الخفي التقي قال : ومر علي بن أبي طالب ، فقال : الحق مع ذا ، الحق مع ذا ، وحديثه (ر) في قصة بنت حمزة (ر) تقدم في الحضانة.




الهيثمي - مجمع الزوائد - الجزء : ( 7 ) - رقم الصفحة : ( 235 )


وعن محمد بن إبراهيم التيمى أن فلاناً دخل المدينة حاجاً فأتاه الناس يسلمون عليه فدخل سعد فسلم فقال : وهذا لم يعنا على حقنا على باطل غيرنا قال : فسكت عنه فقال مالك : لا تتكلم ، فقال : هاجت فتنة وطلمة فقال لبعيرى : إخ إخ فأنخت حتى إنجلت فقال رجل : إني قرأت كتاب الله من أوله إلى آخره فلم أر فيه إخ إخ فقال : أما إذ قلت ذاك فإني سمعت رسول الله (ص) : يقول : علي مع الحق أو الحق مع علي حيث كان ، قال : من سمع ذلك قال : قاله في بيت أم سلمة قال : فأرسل إلى أم سلمة فسألها ، فقالت : قد قاله رسول الله (ص) في بيتي ، فقال : الرجل لسعد ما كنت عندي قط ألوم منك الآن فقال : ولم قال : لو سمعت هذا من النبي (ص) لم أزل خادماً لعلى حتى أموت



I hope the sayings of the Prophet PBUH is clear, When Prophet Mohamad PBUH says Ali is Haq, The Prophet PBUH doesnt says he is not Haq La Samah Allah :cute:
إثبات الشيء لا ينفي ما عداه

[Lacrymosa]

:o


Imam Ali said: I'm a servant of Prophet Mohamad PBUH أنا عبد من عبيد محمد

sigh tsk tsk tsk! no one is a slave to any human, no matter how important he is. :o We are all slaves of Allah.

[Lacrymosa]

But thanks Shark for clearing up what you believe. :cute:

[shark307]

But thanks Shark for clearing up what you believe. :cute:

I accept myself as a servant of Prophet Mohamad PBUH, I dont see anything wrong with that, I'll be proud actually If Prophet Mohamad PBUH accepts me as his servant.

Your welcome :) It wasnt only my believe but I supported it with hadiths and verses.

[Neena]

If 12 Imams doesnt makes sense for you, that doesnt necessarley says that the Prophet didnt appoint them, and if you check the thread from the beggining you'll be able to locate the sources of the 12 Imams hadith which cannot be dissaproved by anyone. Moreover some people found its not logical that a poor man can be a Prophet, rather than that its logical that a Prophet should be a rich man, but their logic or sense didnt change anything.

Excuse me, I will rephrase my previous post, looks like you were not reading right, rather beside the lines!

I did not say I don’t believe about the 12 IMAMA, I have a very good knowledge on them as I read about this before, What I SAID was, I DO NOT believe that the 12 Imam’s were chosen from ALLAH, Appointed by Allah, they are not Prophets’ to be appointed by god! “ Got my point?!

Believe the Imam’s is something, and not believing on how they are appointed is a totally different thing!

[Neena]

you didnt ask for alot.

This hadith has 4 main ways.

2 through Mustadrak, 1 through Khateeb Baghdadi, 1 through Abu Al Shaikh.

Mustadrak one has Ikrimi on it who is considered a lier.

Mustadrak two has Salih bin Moosa Al Talhi, who is dissaproved by many scholars such as Bukhari, Nisai, Abu Naeem and Abu Hatim.

Khateeb Baghdadi his hadith has Saif bin Omar Al Tamimi a famous lier too, who is dissaproved by Abu Hatim, Ibn Hatim, Dar Al Qutni, Al Hakim, Abu Naeem.

Abu Al Shaikh hadith has Hisham bin Salman in its root, again dissaproved by many such as Al Nisai, Ibn Masoud, Dar Al Qatni.

those are the 4 main ways which are all dissaproved (the rest doesnt have roots in them), and if new scholars (Mutakhrin) come and say its Sahih, there is no use if the old scholars (Mutqadmin) dont approve it.


But hadith Book of God and Ahlulbayt is not just Saheeh, its considered the highest level which has been delivered by huge number of companions.



The Farewell Sermon is mentioned in almost all books of Hadith. Sahih Al-Bukhari refers to the sermon and quotes part of it. Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal has given the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Musnad. Ahmad al-Tabarsi and Sayyid ibn Tawus mention the Shia versions of the sermon, which are narrated through Muhammad al-Baqir. Take from this link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farewell_Sermon

So, Sunnes's have their say, so do the Shia's!

[shark307]

Excuse me, I will rephrase my previous post, looks like you were not reading right, rather beside the lines!

I did not say I don’t believe about the 12 IMAMA, I have a very good knowledge on them as I read about this before, What I SAID was, I DO NOT believe that the 12 Imam’s were chosen from ALLAH, Appointed by Allah, they are not Prophets’ to be appointed by god! “ Got my point?!

Believe the Imam’s is something, and not believing on how they are appointed is a totally different thing!


the Quran says that the prophet's sayings are inspirations wa7y, so when he says that there will be 12 imams, it's not his opinion, it's what God wants.

about Hadith al thaqalain, I think it's enough to say that sunnati can barley have an authenticated version, and the ahl al bayt versions have alooopt of authenticated hadiths till it was classified Tawator which means it can never be rejected, the other version is not even mentioned in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim, so y taking unauthenticated and leaving tawator?

[BrAiKi]

the Quran says that the prophet's sayings are inspirations wa7y, so when he says that there will be 12 imams, it's not his opinion, it's what God wants.

So now the 12 Imaams were appointed by a declaration from the prophet?
Show me the hadith says appoints all of them by names please.

[shark307]

in Sahih Muslim this part of the speach can be found

صحيح مسلم - فضائل الصحابة - من فضائل علي بن أبي طالب (ر)
وحدثنا : ‏ ‏محمد بن بكار بن الريان ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حسان يعني إبن إبراهيم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏سعيد بن مسروق ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏يزيد بن حيان ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏زيد بن أرقم ‏ ‏، عن النبي ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏وساق الحديث ‏ ‏بنحوه بمعنى حديث ‏ ‏زهير ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبوبكر بن أبي شيبة ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏محمد بن فضيل ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏، وحدثنا : ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ، أخبرنا : ‏ ‏جرير ‏ ‏كلاهما ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبي حيان ‏ ‏بهذا الإسناد ‏ ‏نحو حديث ‏ ‏إسماعيل ‏ ‏وزاد في حديث ‏ ‏جرير ‏ ‏كتاب الله فيه الهدى والنور من إستمسك به وأخذ به كان على الهدى ومن أخطأه ضل ‏، حدثنا : ‏ ‏محمد بن بكار بن الريان ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏حسان يعني إبن إبراهيم ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏سعيد وهو إبن مسروق ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏يزيد بن حيان ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏زيد بن أرقم ‏ ‏قال : ‏دخلنا عليه فقلنا له : لقد رأيت خيراًًً لقد صاحبت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏وصليت خلفه وساق الحديث بنحو حديث ‏ ‏أبي حيان ‏ ‏غير أنه قال : ألا وإني تارك فيكم ‏ ‏ثقلين ‏‏أحدهما كتاب الله عز وجل هو حبل الله من أتبعه كان على الهدى ومن تركه كان على ضلالة وفيه ، فقلنا : من أهل بيته نساؤه ، قال : لا وأيم الله إن المرأة تكون مع الرجل ‏العصر ‏من الدهر ، ثم يطلقها فترجع إلى أبيها وقومها أهل بيته أصله ‏ ‏وعصبته ‏ ‏الذين حرموا الصدقة بعده.


Ahmed Bin Hanbal part of the speach:


مسند أحمد - باقي مسند المكثرين - مسند أبي سعيد الخدري (ر)


- حدثنا : عبد الله ، حدثنا : أبي ، حدثنا : ‏‏أسود بن عامر ‏، أخبرنا : ‏أبو إسرائيل يعني إسماعيل بن أبي إسحاق الملائي ‏‏، عن ‏‏عطية ‏‏، عن ‏ ‏أبي سعيد ‏قال : ‏قال رسول الله ‏(ص) :‏ إني تارك فيكم ‏ ‏الثقلين ‏، ‏أحدهما أكبر من الآخر ، كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء إلى الأرض ‏، ‏وعترتي ‏ ‏أهل بيتي ، وأنهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا علي الحوض.


Tirmithi part of the speach



سنن الترمذي - المناقب عن رسول الله - مناقب أهل بيت النبي (ص)


- حدثنا : ‏ ‏نصر بن عبد الرحمن الكوفي ‏ ، حدثنا : ‏ ‏زيد بن الحسن هو الأنماطي ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏جعفر بن محمد ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏جابر بن عبد الله ‏ ‏قال : ‏رأيت رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏في حجته يوم ‏ ‏عرفة ‏ ‏وهو على ناقته القصواء يخطب فسمعته يقول : يا أيها الناس إني قد ‏ ‏تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا ، كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي



Nisayi Version:



النسائي - السنن الكبرى - الجزء : ( 5 )
أخبرنا : محمد بن المثنى قال : ، حدثني : يحيى بن حماد قال : ، حدثنا : أبو عوانة ، عن سليمان قال : ، حدثنا : حبيب بن أبي ثابت ، عن أبي الطفيل ، عن زيد بن أرقم ، قال : لما رجع رسول الله (ص) ، عن حجة الوداع ونزل غدير خم أمر بدوحات فقممن ، ثم قال : كإني قد دعيت فأجبت إني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين ، أحدهما أكبر من الآخر ، كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي فإنظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما فإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض ، ثم قال : إن الله مولاي وأنا ولي كل مؤمن ، ثم أخذ بيد علي ، فقال : من كنت وليه فهذا وليه اللهم وال من والاه ، وعاد من عاداه ، فقلت لزيد سمعته من رسول الله (ص) ، فقال : ما كان في الدوحات أحد إلاّّ رآه بعينيه وسمعه بإذنيه.



Albani also says its authenticated

Hakim Naisaburi version




الحاكم النيسابوري - المستدرك - كتاب معرفة الصحاب - ومن مناقب أمير

حدثنا : أبو الحسين محمد بن أحمد بن تميم الحنظلي ببغداد ، ثنا : أبو قلابة عبد الملك بن محمد الرقاشى ، ثنا : يحيى إبن حماد وحدثني : أبوبكر محمد بن أحمد بن بالويه ، وأبوبكر أحمد بن جعفر البزار قالا ، ثنا : عبد الله بن أحمد إبن حنبل حدثني أبي ، ثنا : يحيى بن حماد وثنا أبو نصر أحمد بن سهل الفقيه ببخارى ، ثنا : صالح بن محمد الحافظ البغدادي ، ثنا : خلف بن سالم المخرمى ، ثنا : يحيى بن حماد ، ثنا : أبو عوانة ، عن سليمان الأعمش ، قال : ، ثنا : حبيب بن أبي ثابت ، عن أبي الطفيل ، عن زيد بن أرقم (ر) قال : لما رجع رسول الله (ص) من حجة الوداع ونزل غدير خم أمر بدوحات فقممن ، فقال : كإني قد دعيت فأجبت إني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين ، أحدهما أكبر من الآخر ، كتاب الله تعالى وعترتي ، فإنظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما فأنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض ، ثم قال : إن الله عز وجل مولاى وأنا مولى كل مؤمن ، ثم أخذ بيد علي (ر) ، فقال : من كنت مولاه فهذا وليه اللهم وال من والاه ، وعاد من عاداه

Al Haithami Version:



الهيثمي - مجمع الزوائد - الجزء : ( 1 )

وعن زيد بن ثابت ، عن رسول الله (ص) قال : إني تركت فيكم خليفتين كتاب الله وأهل بيتي ، وأنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا على الحوض



Those are some of the sunni versions of th hadith, nothing has to do with the shia version.

[shark307]

So now the 12 Imaams were appointed by a declaration from the prophet?
Show me the hadith says appoints all of them by names please.

recheck the thread, someone has already mentioned. It's not so Now, the Prophet PBUH sayings are inpirations. Prophet Mohamad PBUH wont say something that God didn't inform him to. the root goes God -> Jibril -> Prophet Mohamad PBUH.

[Neena]

recheck the thread, someone has already mentioned. It's not so Now, the Prophet PBUH sayings are inpirations. Prophet Mohamad PBUH wont say something that God didn't inform him to. the root goes God -> Jibril -> Prophet Mohamad PBUH.


Would it be fair to assume that you fall under the She'a group? If so, could you please tell us, who are the Ahl Bait ? list them for me please.

[BrAiKi]

There isn't a hadith about prophet mohammed that gives the names of those 12 imaams and appoint them as imaams in this thread.
Nor a Quraanic verse for that matter.

[shark307]

There isn't a hadith about prophet mohammed that gives the names of those 12 imaams and appoint them as imaams in this thread.
Nor a Quraanic verse for that matter.

3 sources have been mentioned.

[BrAiKi]

No source has been mentioned that tells a hadith from Prophet Mohammed nor God appointing the 12 imaams with their names.
It seems that they were picked amongest the many sons from Prophet Mohammed's grandchildren.

It's amazing how some people are deeply living in denial. :no:

[shark307]

No source has been mentioned that tells a hadith from Prophet Mohammed nor God appointing the 12 imaams with their names.
It seems that they were picked amongest the many sons from Prophet Mohammed's grandchildren.

It's amazing how some people are deeply living in denial. :no:

and If I show you the 3 sources? you'll be in denial then? :no: you didn't search well. one of their name is Shafi3i and the hadith is through Ibn Abbas through Prophet Mohamad PBUH, just to prove to you the 3 sources exist in this thread but you dont want to search with care, the rest is on you to search properly, and dont say no source has been mentioned when you dont know.

"It seems that they were picked amongest the many sons from Prophet Mohammed's grandchildren."

I can say it seems that not all many Caliphates were chosen in Shura system.

"It's amazing how some people are deeply living in denial. :no:"

try to have some substantive posts.

[Neena]

Shark : you have still not answerd my question!!!

[shark307]

Shark : you have still not answerd my question!!!

It needs a new thread.

[BrAiKi]

There no Hadith that mentions all 12 Imaams by names. And you can't prove that they were.
The conclusion would be that the Imaams were simply picked out.
Just.like.that.
:D

While we are on the subject. According to Shia, how was an Imaam known that he was one? Were there any 'signs' like those of Prophet Mohammed? Or did they perform any miracles?

[shark307]

I wont say I have quoted this for Braiki, I'm quoting this for other from Abu Thar's post which was on the first page to show that Braiki doesnt knows how to search the 1st page out of 8 pages, even though I have asked him twice to search but he didnt care enough, therefore I wont waste my time with Braiki because:

1- he doesnt searches properly whats being provided to him. check baa7ith's post in the previous page: Salaam BrAiKi. You can believe whatever you want. Whatever conclusions in any area of life you come to, I wish you happiness. But, just try to understand the other side. Especially about an academic subject such as Islamic jurisprudence...this is an area of research. Sunnis and Shias both have a lot of evidence behind them. Every Shia view can be proven to have been held by at least one of the scholars from the sahaba or tabi'een. There's nothing foreign about Shia fiqh.

2- all he wants to do is to show that he knows what he is talking bout (even thought he doesnt). check this quote from Jeff in covering hair thread: Whenever Braiki's hadith is cited--that I have seen--there is only the reference to Abu Daud given...as if that were the primary authority. That's because Abu Daud is the BEST authority...and he rates the hadith 'weak'.

also check: What puzzles me is that plenty of people like yourself who are very bold and willing to question lots of stuff regard this as some kind of fixed in stone absolute....and I'm trying to understand why.

3- some of the posts are Racism.

4- alot of Posts arent Substantive at all.

5- Ignoring other party's posts and evidences.

6- Not respecting the other party, or his believes.

7- If a hadith or something is proven to him wrong, he doesnt replies with another prove, but he keeps repeating the same thing that was already been proven to him wrong!

Anyhow everyone this was post #19 by abu thar in the first page which Braiki couldnt locate twice! Sorry after all this I dont want to waste my time with Braiki, as there is no point of it.


Here are some narrations by sunni scholars Al Hamweeni or Al 7amweeni Al Shafi'i or Shafi3i who is the teacher of the famous sunni scholar Al Thahabi, and also by al Al Qanduzy Al Hanafy or 7anafy.

I'll start with Al Qundoozi Al Hanafy, from his book Yanabi3 Al Mawwada, Section 94, in Manaqib, I'll translate it to eng, the Hadith is narrated through the Prophet's Companion called Jabir bin Abdullah Al Ansari R.A., Prophet Mohamad SAAWW: "O Jabir, My Guardians and Imams of Muslims after me first of them is Ali, then Al Hassan, then Al Hussain, then Ali bin Al Hussain, then Mohamad bin Ali known as Al Baqir, O Jabir you will see him, if you see him deliver him my Salam, the Jafar bin Mohamad, then Moosa bin Jafar, then Ali bin Moosa, then Mohamad bin Ali, then Ali bin Mohamad, then Al Hassan bin Ali, then Al Qa'im, his name matches my name and his nickname matches my nickname, Mohamad bin Al Hassan bin Ali, that who will God open on his hand the East and the West of the Earth, that who will dissapear from his Awliya2, and no one will be stuck to his Imamat, except those who Allah tested their heart faith"

P.S. this is my translation, the real narrations are here all of them r almost same:



1 - عن ينابيع المودة للقندوزي الحنفي ( الباب 94 ) . عن المناقب بسنده إلى جابر بن عبد الله قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : ( يا جابر إن أوصيائي وأئمة المسلمين من بعدي أولهم علي ، ثم الحسن ، ثم الحسين ثم علي بن الحسين ، ثم محمد بن علي المعروف بالباقر ستدركه يا جابر فإذا لقيته فاقرأه مني السلام ، ثم جعفر بن محمد ، ثم موسى بن جعفر ، ثم علي بن موسى ، ثم محمد بن علي ، ثم علي بن محمد ، ثم الحسن بن علي ، ثم القائم اسمه اسمي وكنيته كنيتي محمد بن الحسن بن علي ذاك الذي يفتح الله تبارك وتعالى على يديه مشارق الأرض ومغاربها ، ذاك الذي يغيب عن أوليائه غيبة لا يثبت على القول بإمامته إلا من امتحن الله قلبه للإيمان ) .



and also in Fara2id Al 9imtain or Simtain for Al Hamwini Al Shafi'i
2 - عن فرائد السمطين للحمويني الشافعي : بالإسناد إلى ابن عباس في حديث عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله جاء فيه : ( إن وصيي علي بن أبي طالب وبعده سبطاي الحسن والحسين تتلوه تسعة أئمة من صلب الحسين ) ثم قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( فإذا مضى الحسين فابنه علي ، فإذا مضى علي فابنه محمد ، فإذا مضى محمد فابنه جعفر ، فإذا مضى جعفر فابنه موسى ، فإذا مضى موسى فابنه علي ، فإذا مضى علي فابنه محمد ، فإذا مضى محمد فابنه علي ، فإذا مضى علي فابنه الحسن ، فإذا مضى الحسن فابنه الحجة محمد المهدي فهؤلاء اثنا عشر ) .


again almost same narration from Al Qundoozi Al Hanafi, Section 76 in Manaqib narrated also through Jabir bin Abdullah Al Ansari R.A.
3 - عن ينابيع المودة للقندوزي الحنفي : ( الباب 76 ) . عن المناقب بسنده عن جابر الأنصاري قال : دخل جندب بن جنادة على النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسأله عن مسائل ثم قال : أخبرني يا رسول الله عن أوصيائك بعدك لا لأتمسك بهم . قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( أوصيائي الاثنا عشر ) . قال : ( يا رسول الله سمهم لي ) . قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( أولهم سيد الأوصياء أبو الأئمة علي ، ثم إبناه الحسن والحسين فاستمسك بهم ولا يغرنك جهل الجاهلين ) . قال ابن جنادة : فمن بعد الحسين ؟ قال صلى الله عليه وآله : ( إذا انقضت مدة الحسين فالإمام ابنه علي ويلقب بزين العابدين . فبعده ابنه محمد يلقب بالباقر . فبعده ابنه جعفر يدعى بالصادق . فبعده ابنه موسى يدعى بالكاظم . فبعده ابنه علي يدعى بالرضا . فبعده ابنه محمد يدعى بالتقي والزكي . فبعده ابنه علي يدعى بالنقي والهادي . فبعده ابنه الحسن يدعى بالعسكري . فبعده ابنه محمد يدعى بالمهدي والقائم والحجة ) .


Kifayat Al Athar for Abu Qasim Al Khazar
4 - عن كفاية الأثر لأبي القاسم الخزار :


بالإسناد عن الحسين بن علي عليه السلام قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لعلي عليه السلام : ( أنا أولى بالمؤمنين منهم بأنفسهم . ثم أنت يا علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعدك الحسن أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده الحسين أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده محمد أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده جعفر أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده موسى أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم ثم بعده علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده محمد أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده الحسن أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . ثم بعده الحجة بن الحسن أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم . أئمة أبرار هم مع الحق والحق معهم .

[BrAiKi]

Lol you make it sound like your on a stage to turn people against me. That's just pathetic. I can delete that post because it has nothing to do with the topic.
However, it doesn't take a genius to tell who has been beating around the bush when questions are asked.
I don't blame you though, that's taqqiya at its best ;)

[Ghazzali]

I am always curious...how does the concept of a religious guide and ruler guided by God (the Imam) fit into the concept of Prophethood?

A divine Imam sounds a LOT like a prophet...

How is it distinct?

Spot on. Actually there are narrations in their books which alludes to that; the Imams also receive revelations but the differences is in "which way they receive the revelation".

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْأَحْوَلِ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الرَّسُولِ وَ النَّبِيِّ وَ الْمُحَدَّثِ قَالَ الرَّسُولُ الَّذِي يَأْتِيهِ جَبْرَئِيلُ قُبُلًا فَيَرَاهُ وَ يُكَلِّمُهُ فَهَذَا الرَّسُولُ وَ أَمَّا النَّبِيُّ فَهُوَ الَّذِي يَرَى فِي مَنَامِهِ نَحْوَ رُؤْيَا إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ نَحْوَ مَا كَانَ رَأَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص مِنْ أَسْبَابِ النُّبُوَّةِ قَبْلَ الْوَحْيِ حَتَّى أَتَاهُ جَبْرَئِيلُ ع مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ بِالرِّسَالَةِ وَ كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ ص حِينَ جُمِعَ لَهُ النُّبُوَّةُ وَ جَاءَتْهُ الرِّسَالَةُ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ يَجِيئُهُ بِهَا جَبْرَئِيلُ وَ يُكَلِّمُهُ بِهَا قُبُلًا وَ مِنَ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ مَنْ جُمِعَ لَهُ النُّبُوَّةُ وَ يَرَى فِي مَنَامِهِ وَ يَأْتِيهِ الرُّوحُ وَ يُكَلِّمُهُ وَ يُحَدِّثُهُ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَنْ يَكُونَ يَرَى فِي الْيَقَظَةِ وَ أَمَّا الْمُحَدَّثُ فَهُوَ الَّذِي يُحَدَّثُ فَيَسْمَعُ وَ لَا يُعَايِنُ وَ لَا يَرَى فِي مَنَامِهِ
“I asked abu Ja‘far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the messenger, the prophet and al-Muhaddath (one to whom Divine guidance is reported). The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said, ‘A messenger is one to whom Jibril (Gabriel) comes openly. He sees him (the angel) and speaks to him. Such person is a messenger. A prophet is one who sees in his dream something like the dream of Abraham (peace be upon him). (Of such dreams) is the dream of the Messenger of Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about reasons and signs of prophecy before the coming of revelation. (He would experience such dreams) until Jibril came from Allah to inform him that he was to be a messenger. In the case of Prophet Muhammad, recipient of divine supreme covenant, when prophecy was established in him then Jibril brought him the message that he was to be a messenger. Jibril would come and speak to him openly. Certain prophets, in whom prophecy had been established, saw in their dreams, the spirit who would come to them, speak and report to them but they would not see the spirit when awake. “Al-Muhaddath is one to whom matters of Divine guidance are reported and he hears the reporting but does not see (the angel) openly or in his dream.’”


Source:
Al-Kulaynee, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 176, hadeeth # 3
Grading:
Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
--> Mir'aat Al-'Uqool, vol. 2, pg. 289
Bahboodee said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
--> SaHeeH Al-Kaafee, vol. 1, pg. 25

(this is from a Shi`a self on another forum)

[Neena]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
I am always curious...how does the concept of a religious guide and ruler guided by God (the Imam) fit into the concept of Prophethood?

A divine Imam sounds a LOT like a prophet...

How is it distinct?


Imam and Prohpet are 2 different things. The sanctions on Shea believe so that Imam's are chosen By god, just like the way the prophets are chosen.

Where the sunni's have a different view on this and they believe that an Imam/leader is chosen by a group or ppl, Commitee etc..

Anyway I will elaborate more later on let me do more research!