Any Muslims joined in Draw Mohammed Day?

[UmKhalid]

20th of May (yesterday) was the Everybody Draw Mohammed Day. I'm wondering, did any Muslims join in?

If yes, what did you post? Please share.

If not, why not?

[Lacrymosa]

Who started this Day? :think:

[Abu Eliyas]

first time i know about this

[Jeff]

Ah, Noorah! :)

I didn't join. Didn't think of joining. Not a very good reason, I suppose.

I don't see anything wrong with drawing Mohammed. But I don't like to hurt my friends.

Also I suck at drawing! :D

Those are my reasons for not participating.

[marianna]

Not interested in drawing this but I did rather well and would often draw replications of biblical features depicted in the Sistine Chapel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel

[Lacrymosa]

I honestly would be honored to draw his bright and most beautiful face but I don't think it's a good idea.

I'd rather say "peace be upon him" all the time . Our drawings will not get us, or him anywhere. He will still be the greatest man who has ever lived on earth.... No one can deny that, even his own enemies. And now, in these very days....all the fuss about him proves that he's the greatest human being on earth.

:PBUH::PBUH::PBUH:

[UmKhalid]

:-) First of all, smiling at you all.

Well why I'm asking is because I thought it was a great thing having a whole day dedicated to that, going through the sketches, no Muslims joined in, which saddened me. Many Muslims saw it as an insulting idea to have an "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day", Pakistan blocked FB, Youtube, flickr, the internet (okay exaggerating ;-P) to prevent people from even seeing it.

But if Muslims joined in ... I mean I know most of the Muslims on here are sweethearts and have non-Muslim friends and relatives even. You won't go and 'curse the disbelievers' and pray hateful prayers against them. So if we had Muslims joining in as well it won't only be heart-opening for them to see that, but for us as Muslims, it would be a big step for... US! (not the United States ;-P)


We need to accept that there are people who really do think we're all a bunch of psychotic loons being driven by Religious thoughts that promote hatred and came to the conclusion that it's because of the person we follow and respect: The Prophet Mohammed ...

I wonder how they even came to that silly conclusion ...

Oh! Wait a minute!

Maybe ... ?

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/danish_cartoon_protest.jpg


We can say: "The Prophet Mohammed is peaceful. Islam is a religion of Peace."

And smile. And hug people.

But what we're doing is saying the exact same sentence with an angry expression on, sometimes even adding at the end: "And if you say otherwise we're going to frackin' blow you up."

[marianna]

As always you are one of the wisest members I know Um Khalid. And why I respect you so much as a person.

[UmKhalid]

Love that I'm your friend :-)

[marianna]

:) I think we have some similar viewpoints on how to understand and perceiving the bigger picture. You hit the point exactly as far as how I see things and how we all need to try to respect one another and also viewing this hot topic.

[UmKhalid]

I'm going to show you something later, about this.

I joined and posted a drawing. :-)

The responses were surprising to me.

I'll have to gather my thoughts and find a way to explain this, I learnt something beautiful from it.

[marianna]

Well, I respect you for your courage and yes, please let me know later, am interested.

[Jeff]

I'm lovin this....

Zaraba?

[LORDMUS]

Then again as long its not offensive it wouldn't matter although I personally wouldn't go onto to draw something life-like be it a living thing so to sketch prophet (pbuh) is parsecs away. Of course people would give you +ve feedback as to some it would please others it wouldn't again each their own because majority of religion or people who have no faith find it plain as water to draw a human while in Islam its a NO NO.I always wonder would the same ruling be applied for cartoonist?
My 2 cents.

[Jeff]

Wait and see! Wait and see! :)

Girl's a genius... :D

[Lacrymosa]

:-) First of all, smiling at you all.

Well why I'm asking is because I thought it was a great thing having a whole day dedicated to that, going through the sketches, no Muslims joined in, which saddened me. Many Muslims saw it as an insulting idea to have an "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day", Pakistan blocked FB, Youtube, flickr, the internet (okay exaggerating ;-P) to prevent people from even seeing it.

But if Muslims joined in ... I mean I know most of the Muslims on here are sweethearts and have non-Muslim friends and relatives even. You won't go and 'curse the disbelievers' and pray hateful prayers against them. So if we had Muslims joining in as well it won't only be heart-opening for them to see that, but for us as Muslims, it would be a big step for... US! (not the United States ;-P)




I think it'll be an honor to be able to truely draw him!

Truely: not the sarcastic drawings! :no:




We can say: "The Prophet Mohammed is peaceful. Islam is a religion of Peace."

And smile. And hug people.

But what we're doing is saying the exact same sentence with an angry expression on, sometimes even adding at the end: "And if you say otherwise we're going to frackin' blow you up."


That's what I always tell! The word "Islam" comes from the word "salam" which means peace. :yes:

[El Rey]

What a stupid idea.

[UmKhalid]

Hi El Rey! Stupid idea for Muslims to join in?

[UmKhalid]

Lordmus, yeah I understand your religious view on it, some religious studies and scholars found that it's fine to draw humans though because earlier it was about making idols - people were still new to montheism and it might've gotten them back to making idols and worshiping them. So the Prophet said: Okay, no Tasweer allowed. (Tasweer meaning 3D depiction.)

But things change - If you made a statue now, would you worship it?

But I'm going off-topic! :-D Sorry about that. But thanks for joining in the thread. Nice to meet you.

[El Rey]

Did you draw Prophet Mohammed PBUH, UmKhalid?!

[UmKhalid]

Lacrymosa,

Made me smile :-) ... I agree. Going through the sketches last night I saw some that made me shut my eyes and move on ... not very nice.

But some actually drew some nice stuff! Funny too. Like one who put a blank page, "Mohammed after having invisibility potion". So silly. But now I'm worried people would take it as me as a Muslim 'making fun of the prophet'. I'm not. The angry sketches yesterday weren't about the prophet either, I don't believe so, they were about showing Muslims who say "Death to those ..." that they CAN draw the prophet and there's nothing Muslims can do about it.

So, although hard for some to admit, if there were any insulting depictions, it was entirely Our fault.

It simply goes this way:

"Curse you you infidel may your wife be widowed and your children orphaned. We will cut your hands if you draw our Prophet!"

"Oh yeah? Well here's a sketch of your holy prophet as a pig."

"ALALALALLALA!!!!!!"

"Yeah, thought so."

[Jeff]

Golly, I'm going to sit on the sidelines for this one...

[Diabian]

sorry Noura... but there r much more acceptable ways of celebrating the prophet... ways that are less provoking and less controversial.
Its funny how you make it sound that just to please those non muslims who favor the drawing of the prophet, we should do join n draw with them... clearly Jeff is an example of those pleased by it.

Another way of celebrating the prophet is actually following his directions and teachings... not talk about celebrating him while listening to music and pleasing non-muslim critics.

btw... those non-muslims who want the drawings to be approved are the same who are critical of the way muslim girls should dress... critical of the way we support Palestine and condemn Israel... critical of the way we don't engage in promiscuity....etc.
Its really a matter of values.... and instead of saying; we should please those non-believers... how about convince them that its not part of our religion to draw paintings and characters of our prophet (let alone the comic drawings of him)... ya invest more time in researching this rather than pleasing your non-muslim 'artists'!!

[Jeff]

^^

Yeah, but Diab, you haven't found out what she did yet....jumping to conclusions.

[UmKhalid]

Diabian, it REALLY wasn't about "pleasing the disbelievers", didn't think of it that way, didn't even of THEM that way.

[El Rey]

What do you think about this verse UmKhalid:

140. Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-

[Diabian]

UmKhalid: This is what you said in one of your first replys that made Jeff give you a virtual standing ovation:


So if we had Muslims joining in as well it won't only be heart-opening for them to see that, but for us as Muslims, it would be a big step for... US! (not the United States ;-P)


We need to accept that there are people who really do think we're all a bunch of psychotic loons being driven by Religious thoughts that promote hatred and came to the conclusion that it's because of the person we follow and respect: The Prophet Mohammed ...

It screams THEM out loud!!


But never mind, UmKhalid.... Lets say if you know for 100% certainty that on Judgment day you will be punished by God and the prophet for drawing him, or even taking part in a way or another in the day... would you still do it?! I know its a theoretical question, but I hope you bare with me alil bit!

[FAITH86]

Well UmKhalid,

Let aside the fact that religiously it’s not a good idea to depict prophets. But I really can’t get behind it mostly for the following reason: I feel there are a lot better ways to show unity and strength – the very best is probably just to ignore these idiots who did the comic pictures (indeed, only react if the threat is credible, which most aren’t). We don’t need such a day…really…it saddens me (actually strokes me) the amount of sacrifices some pay on the cost of their core values; not as a Muslim only, but as a human being.

[Booth]

I'm not in the mood to judge right now, I want to see your drawing and your favorites...

[UmKhalid]

Diabian,

C'mon, B! :-D This is a discussion, you can doubt and ask about whatever you want. It's no problem. :-)

If I was 100% sure I would be seen as guilty for drawing the prophet :PBUH: or taking part in that day, no, I wouldn't join in.

But are you sure that God is 100% frowning down upon me right now? Maybe He's smiling, but I'm not 100% sure about that either. God sees things His own way.

As for Jeff, giving me a Virtual Standing Ovation ... I didn't ask for it. I don't want to get him under the spotlight but if he can explain WHY he agrees with what I say maybe it'd clear things out for both you and I.

I'm not PLEASING Jeff by saying this, if he is pleased, then alhamdulillah, but let's see why he's pleased. Hopefully he'll explain.

[UmKhalid]

El Rey,

I go by that verse. :-)

[Alex Belucci]

Nowadays there are days for everything lol!

[UmKhalid]

FAITH86,

We had two types of Muslims on that day: a type who rioted and cursed and just went ballistic about it, and another wiser group who ignored it. I'm glad you were from the other group.

Maybe depicting prophets isn't a 'good idea', but that's only one of the religious thoughts about it. It's a controversial topic among scholars. It's not an ultimate rule.

Remember البيروني Al Biruni? The Muslim philosopher/theologian/scientist/preacher/etc/etc...?

He depicted the prophet in his illustration titled "Al Athaar al Baaqiya"

*image removed*


You say "We don't need such a day", but we're talking about the 20th of May, it wasn't about whether we 'needed' that day or not. It happened. We either went apeshit about it, or ignored it. No alternative somewhere in the middle?

[Diabian]

Diabian,

C'mon, B! :-D This is a discussion, you can doubt and ask about whatever you want. It's no problem. :-)

If I was 100% sure I would be seen as guilty for drawing the prophet :PBUH: or taking part in that day, no, I wouldn't join in.

But are you sure that God is 100% frowning down upon me right now? Maybe He's smiling, but I'm not 100% sure about that either. God sees things His own way.

As for Jeff, giving me a Virtual Standing Ovation ... I didn't ask for it. I don't want to get him under the spotlight but if he can explain WHY he agrees with what I say maybe it'd clear things out for both you and I.

I'm not PLEASING Jeff by saying this, if he is pleased, then alhamdulillah, but let's see why he's pleased. Hopefully he'll explain.

Thanks for understanding UmKhalid..:)

Then... wouldn't you think that because you are not sure whether drawing the prophet is OK or punishable... maybe you should ask those major islamic scholars, clerics and teachers or pundits for what they think of this??

[Jeff]

UmK:

Well, I can't explain all about why I am so impressed.

But one thing that impresses me is daring thought and risk taking.

For example, the response to FAITH.

Instead of just saying, "All images of the prophet are wrong because that's what everyone around me is saying", you are willing to question that and to point out Muslim scholars who disagreed and even drew Mohammed themselves.

There might be a danger in that. But there is another danger also in just going along with the idea of Islam that is all around you... Instead of being religious, that could be just giving in to social pressure.

So it might be a risk to do something daring like you did. But it's ALSO a risk to just look around you and do what everyone else is doing.

Seems to me that you had a daring original approach which you haven't yet fully explained. And that your motivation was to reach out to people and try to understand them rather than hunkering down in defensive mode: "They are so BAD! We are so GOOD!"

Floor back to you... :)

[Diabian]

^ hey jeff... cut the crap. The Biruni was not a religious scholar... he was a scientist (physics, chemist...etc). In addition, your virtual standing ovation came long before Umkhalid's reply to Faith.

Just admit it... you are for anything against Islam... and thing secular... anything atheist when it comes to Islam ;)

[UmKhalid]

There are SO many views to the thread but only a few members stuck around to reply, thanks for bearing with us Diabian and still engaging here, so cool of you. :-)

About Al-Biruni, well, he was also a theologian, an Islamic scholar and a preacher of Islam. But even so, he wasn't the only one to draw the prophet. Even today, people of the Shiite sect depict Ahlul-Bait, they don't find it forbidden.


Annnd something I have to say regarding Jeff's response, I am also discussing it with him through private messages and have explained my views to him before my response to FAITH86, so he's speaking out of knowledge of what I am trying to deliver.

I've known Jeff for quite a long time, years, never have I seen him side with something on or off sabla just to 'go against Islam'... he's really not like that, at ALL. :-)

[Jeff]

^ hey jeff... cut the crap. The Biruni was not a religious scholar... he was a scientist (physics, chemist...etc). In addition, your virtual standing ovation came long before Umkhalid's reply to Faith.

Just admit it... you are for anything against Islam... and thing secular... anything atheist when it comes to Islam ;)

Well, I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. I don't think it's the impression I give most people

In any case, that's not true about atheism and secularism. I'll take Islam over them any day. That's one of the reasons I argue so fiercely with many of the Westerners here. And why Jack red reps me! :D

[FAITH86]

I'm a famous financial analyst and I can come up with my own fatawi, keen to follow? :)

My take:
There's a famous hadeeth "أفتى قلبك ولو افتوك" or "افتي نفسك ولو أفتوك الناس". I don't think anyone of you guys believe in the breastfeeding fatwa that Egyptian scholar came up with, do you?
Same goes here, by using common sense it doesn't sound right, let alone the fact that majority [maybe all I'm afraid] agrees that it's not right to depict prophets AT ALL...out of respect.

PS: I never heard of any scholar who said it's OK to depict prophers. But it would be interesting to read some anyways

[Jeff]

I'm a famous financial analyst and I can come up with my own fatawi, anyone keen to follow? :)



:p Hahaha!

I will follow you anywhere, Faith! :)

Very funny! (And now I know the plural of fatwa! :) )

[FAITH86]

^ Hmm how about I draw you Jeff? :p

I will be back with some interesting [hopefully] stuff. Got to rest now. :super:

[Cherry]

No I didn't join in nor did I think twice about the whole issue in the first place. Um Khalid, It would be interesting to see what you drew though.

I'm not against Muslims joining. If they did and were able to draw something without depicting the prophet himself :pbuh: then it's good. Bravo to them in fact.

[marianna]

I am just happy with the open dialogue. That says allot.

[Jeff]

^^

Yes. :)

[Jeff]

^ Hmm how about I draw you Jeff? :p

I will be back with some interesting [hopefully] stuff. Got to rest now. :super:

Sure! You lead and draw me after you.... :p

[Markov]

20th of May (yesterday) was the Everybody Draw Mohammed Day. I'm wondering, did any Muslims join in?


You meant draw Prophet Mohamed(pbuh) Day?

[Diabian]

There are SO many views to the thread but only a few members stuck around to reply, thanks for bearing with us Diabian and still engaging here, so cool of you. :-)

About Al-Biruni, well, he was also a theologian, an Islamic scholar and a preacher of Islam. But even so, he wasn't the only one to draw the prophet. Even today, people of the Shiite sect depict Ahlul-Bait, they don't find it forbidden.


Annnd something I have to say regarding Jeff's response, I am also discussing it with him through private messages and have explained my views to him before my response to FAITH86, so he's speaking out of knowledge of what I am trying to deliver.

I've known Jeff for quite a long time, years, never have I seen him side with something on or off sabla just to 'go against Islam'... he's really not like that, at ALL. :-)

OK UmKhalid... regardless of the Jeff issue now...

As you said, because of the fact that we are not 100% that God will punish us for drawing the prophet... and given that the majority of religious scholars, apart from shi3a ones, do not approve the drawing of the prophet... doesn't it make sense for us, the muslims, to avoid drawing the prophet just to avoid the risk?!
If not... then what do understand from this hadeeth:

لنعمان بن بشير الذي رواه الشيخان عن النبي أنه قال : " الحلال بين والحرام بين وبين ذلك أمور مشتبهات لا يدري كثير من الناس أمن الحلال هي أم من الحرام فمن تركها استبراءا لدينه وعرضه فقد سلم ومن واقع شيئا منها يوشك أن يواقع الحرام كما أن من يرعى حول الحمى ( وهو مكان محدود يحجزه السلطان لترعى فيه أنعامه وحدها ويحجر على غيرها أن تنال منه شيئا أوشك أن يواقعه .. ألا وإن لكل ملك حمى ألا وإن حمى الله محارمه .. "

Doesn't the word mushtabahat include drawing the prophet?? and hence, we should avoid it?

[Jeff]

^^

I think there are two questions in there....

1. Can you ever disagree with the majority opinion of scholars if you think you have a serious reason?

But there is another question:

2. Even if YOU go along with the majority, do you treat the minority with respect and tolerance? Or do you simply condemn them?

A person can say, "I would never draw the Prophet, but I recognize that some do. I think it's safer for me to go with the majority. But I don't hate the minority. Maybe they are right!"

Scholars are people too. They can be right because of their expertise. But they also can be affected by their cultural surroundings and the go along with everyone else attitude.

Then there is always the question, "What do you mean by 'drawing the prophet'? What is that exactly?" And also, "Do I treat non-Muslims who do what some Muslims also do with respect and friendship? Do I try to build bridges to them? Or do I simply, flatly oppose them and treat them with harshness?"

[FAITH86]

FAITH86,

We had two types of Muslims on that day: a type who rioted and cursed and just went ballistic about it, and another wiser group who ignored it. I'm glad you were from the other group.



Something I wanted to share here, for you and Jeff. Tried to translate a part from my sister's blog [Spot]...since you brought up the point of ignoring such things:


ذكرتني حركة هذا الجاهل منشئ الصفحة بقصة من قصص جحا – طيب الله ثراه وذكراه!- عندما أراد يوما أن يلفت إنتباه الملأ إليه، فـ"عمل عملته" (اكرمكم الله) على ملابسه وفي المسجد فهم الملأ بضربه وتقريعه، وعاد لفعله هذا وتجاوزه لنشر النجاسة في المسجد فما كان منهم إلا أن فعلوا به كما فعلوا أول مرة، وهكذا تفاعل الناس بإسلوب زاد المشكلة تعقيدا والوساخة إنتشارا! هذا بالضبط ما يحدث الآن، ففلان ينادي اخاه لمشاهدة وشتم صاحب الصفحة واخاه يخبر إبن عمه... والبلد كله لا يفعل شيئا سوى المتابعة والمناهضة بإسلوب قديم جدا!


This reminds me of one of the famous stories of Juha. When he once wanted to draw the attention of the public to him, so he basically "shit in the mosque" in the mosque and everyone started beating and swearing at him. So he did it once more, then kept on doing it every day...to the extent that the his dirt became all over the mosque. So the people around him kept on reacting the same exact way every time he did it which made the whole situation much more complicated and his dirt became widespread.

This is exactly what is happening now, X calls his brother to watch or join in the insulting groups,
the brother tells the cousin,
the cousin tells his friend and so on...
Eventually,the entire society does not do anything but reacting in the same ignorant traditional way.

Long story short: let the ignorants do whatever they want. And simply IGNORE. Spreading their stupidites make them win more than 90% of the game, which is not really smart.


إن إنسانا تعرى من ادميته واخلاقه وتجاوز حده بهذا الشكل لن يردعه رادع من أن يعاود الكرة

A human who gives away his humanity and his morals and crosses his limits this way will never hesitat to do it again


فلنتعلم فن التجاهل تعلما جماعيا، إذا كان رب العزة يخاطب نبيه (صلى الله عليه وسلم) في القول: (وأعرض عن المشركين * إنا كفيناك المستهزئين) (الحجر 94-96) وهم مشركين! فلم نولي اهتماما لشخص نفى ذاته وجاهر بكفره؟!


And let's learn the art of ignoring...Allah SWT said to his prophet PBUH:
"Therefore expound openly what thou art commanded, and turn away from those who join false gods with Allah. For sufficient are We unto thee against those who scoff"

[Jeff]

^^

A very thought provoking post...

But I talk too much. I think I'm gonna wait and let UmK get in her two cents.

[Diabian]

Jeff, I my self do many things that are not compliant with what the majority of muslims do... but only in matters that won't offend or insult the majority of "people" around me (am talkin abt scholars).... and the same applies to why the majority in the west will not accept Nazis minority; its because their thoughts and beliefs offends the majority.

The fact that drawing the prophet (specially in mockery way) DOES in fact insult and offend the majority of muslims... hence to respect the society and to avoid conflicts, we are suppose to avoid that. Am not saying don't do it in your house... thats between you and God, but at least don't provoke the society by insulting them this way!

Again; from a religious point of view... my question is still up for UmK.

[UmKhalid]

I VERY much agree with Diabian and Faith.

Faith,

You're right about ignoring, it IS a better way to go, I think if all Muslims just ignored the Danish cartoons from the start none of this would've even happened. So I agree. You're right. Your sister is right.

Who will listen, though? That's the problem. Some people would think you, your sister and I are cowards and irreligious for not "standing up to defend the prophet" - but they see themselves as being very religious shouting and rioting in the streets calling death upon those non-Muslims who did join. They don't see it as "rioting" though, they see it as being "Defenders of the Prophet".

[UmKhalid]

Diabian

Hmm... I'm not sure if I know how to explain it from a Religious point linking it with Scholars. I don't think I would call a scholar just to say: Okay, look, I have this idea...

We have brains too, they're human, we're human, maybe they know more about the "religious reasoning" behind a certain thing than the average Muslim does, but it doesn't mean we have to take their advice on every single thing, like the hadith Faith shared: "Take a fatwa from your heart, even if others give you fatwas, and they will."



The fact that drawing the prophet (specially in mockery way) DOES in fact insult and offend the majority of muslims...

Yeah, that's true. I think it's a simple thing people didn't realize when they posted some not-so-nice sketches that day: If you insult someone we love, naturally we WOULD get upset.

But how to deliver that to them? Most Muslims as seen on TV just went: "We're going to fracking kill you".

[Diabian]

UmK....

Sure... there are other ways of expressing objection to the drawings... I personally didn't even boycott the Danish products when they did what they did.... But you really think those who drew the prophet are willing to listen to us?!
Most of them are comedians and entertaining atheists who couldn't care less about religion... and are sponsored and paid by religious figures who will take sides with atheists just to provoke muslims. People like Jeff, as much as religious as he sounds, if he was rich enough, he wouldn't spare a penny to promote the drawing of the prophet by atheists just to take a piss at muslims!!
For example, when the writers in South Park drew te prophet Mohamed... the first people to praise them were the right-wing conservative media personals like Glenn Beck and Bill O'reilly (both Catholic icons of Fox News) and Rush Limbaugh.... But when Comedy central announced a cartoon abt Jesus for the coming season... Fox News came first to stand against it along with William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Civil and Religious Rights!!

This just shows what kind of hypocrisy we are dealing with here... And sadly enough there are people who will sympathize with their insults!!

Anyways... I think its better to avoid the mushtabahat, including drawing the prophet (let alone drawing him in a mocking way)... and there is no use in insulting the whole society because of a cartoon!!

[STING]

Why is it that so many among us have the urge and keenness to satisfy our foreign friends? Is it inferiority complex? Or is it lack of understanding of self? Or maybe its just continuation of slavery through virtual services? It could also most likely be the unconscious happiness experienced when admired by aliens, which always multiplies with unhappy souls.

Handful number of non Muslims have taken on the mission to disrespect Prophet Muhammad PBUH through cartoons. I have mentioned before that no attention whatsoever should be given to these people because that is exactly what they want.

Their actions add no value to humanity and if anything, more should be done to educate people about one of the greatest teachers of mankind. People who insult someone who they call God, how do you expect them to respect a foreign Prophet?

Whether drawing is Halal or Haram, whether drawings were insulting or encouraging, I ask what is the purpose? What idle and sick minds would devote their time to such unproductive activities?

And if anything at all is to be done to exchange feelings and ideas, which is good for humanity, then Muslims should start insulting and drawing cartoons about things that they feel close to; not to insult, but to help them understand how it feel. Besides, why draw anything to prove to anyone how we are?

If you have the skills, then many good topics to draw on as a Muslim:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:D8W7fYz7-QbARM:http://shabot6000.com/blog/uploaded_images/2006/hi5hitler.gif
http://godisgoofy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/pedophile_priest_cartoon2.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KMJlfU5vYb4/SVA-gokiM0I/AAAAAAAAClM/WuLVrmEgAuI/s400/Misuse_of_anti_Semitism_2_by_Latuff2.jpg
https://zone.artizans.com/images/previews/COH1111.pwv.jpg
http://turtlethoughts.typepad.com/.a/6a01156f684b88970c01156fa6d358970c-800wi
http://www.historiography-project.com/iran/iran-Images/0.jpg

Do not ask me to indulge if you don't indulge. Do not ask me to be intolerant about my faith if you have no faith. Do not ask me to change if you cannot change.

[Jeff]

^^

Yeah but STING don't you see?

The reason for Draw Mohammed Day was because many Westerners felt that YOU insulted US!

For generations, we have been able to draw whoever we wanted! Historical figures, national figures, religious figures. Anybody!

If we hurt somebody's feelings, that was THEIR problem!

This was OUR culture.

And suddenly we woke up to find that there was ONE figure--somebody who didn't have much value to most of us--that a group of people were telling us we could NOT draw...without facing death or the threat of it.

So the reaction from many Westerners was:

"Who the HELL do you think you ARE? To tell us that we can't think and act about this guy as we think best? In OUR countries?

"Why should we have to follow YOUR rules? Why should we respect YOUR prophet? Why can't we simply do what we always have done and say and draw what WE think is appropriate?"

Draw Mohammed Day was not about "insulting Mohammed". It was about saying to you folks, "WE get to decide WHO WE DRAW and HOW! NOT YOU!"

In fact, Draw Mohammed Day was not about Muslims at all. It was about US. About us Westerners.

Will we be people who will be frightened into adopting other people's standards? Standards we don't believe in? Or will we be people who will insist on following our own standards?

In other words, it's not just WE who have to try to understand YOUR feelings. It is also YOU who have to try to understand OURS.

I think a lot of you don't get that. I think UmK DID.

Let me just add that though I support the right of people to do this day and draw what they like and though I understand why they did it, I still didn't particularly like it and certainly didn't participate in it or encourage it.

Out of VOLUNTARY respect for my friends and what they hold dear.

[Jeff]

UmK....

sponsored and paid by religious figures who will take sides with atheists just to provoke muslims. People like Jeff, as much as religious as he sounds, if he was rich enough, he wouldn't spare a penny to promote the drawing of the prophet by atheists just to take a piss at muslims!!


Now where do you GET that? :D

I don't need to be rich to draw Mohammed or to encourage others to do so.

But *I* didn't participate in the day, nor did I encourage ANYONE to do so! :D

Nor have I ever insulted your religion, publicly or privately, or encouraged anyone else to do so! :p

I have ALWAYS sided with Muslims against atheists and secularists...just ask Russo! I drive him crazy with it.

You have some bee in your bonnet about me; I don't know what it is! :p

[Diabian]

^^

Yeah but STING don't you see?

The reason for Draw Mohammed Day was because many Westerners felt that YOU insulted US!

For generations, we have been able to draw whoever we wanted! Historical figures, national figures, religious figures. Anybody!

If we hurt somebody's feelings, that was THEIR problem!

This was OUR culture.

And suddenly we woke up to find that there was ONE figure--somebody who didn't have much value to most of us--that a group of people were telling us we could NOT draw...without facing death or the threat of it.

So the reaction from many Westerners was:

"Who the HELL do you think you ARE? To tell us that we can't think and act about this guy as we think best? In OUR countries?

"Why should we have to follow YOUR rules? Why should we respect YOUR prophet? Why can't we simply do what we always have done and say and draw what WE think is appropriate?"

Draw Mohammed Day was not about "insulting Mohammed". It was about saying to you folks, "WE get to decide WHO WE DRAW and HOW! NOT YOU!"

In fact, Draw Mohammed Day was not about Muslims at all. It was about US. About us Westerners.

Will we be people who will be frightened into adopting other people's standards? Standards we don't believe in? Or will we be people who will insist on following our own standards?

In other words, it's not just WE who have to try to understand YOUR feelings. It is also YOU who have to try to understand OURS.

I think a lot of you don't get that. I think UmK DID.

Let me just add that though I support the right of people to do this day and draw what they like and though I understand why they did it, I still didn't particularly like it and certainly didn't participate in it or encourage it.

Out of VOLUNTARY respect for my friends and what they hold dear.

I hope UmK reads whats among the lines (bayn el su6ooor :D)... Thanks for coming clear; you were not taking side UmK for her support of drawing the prophet because this is could be OK in her religion... you were doing it to add support to the westerners who said "Why should we respect YOUR prophet"..
For that reason they, including Jeff, will never ever want to listen to what we have to say :)

Thanks Jeff... I knew constant pounding can unmask your poisoned-honey identity.

[STING]

Thanks Jeff... I knew constant pounding can unmask your poisoned-honey identity.

LoL at "constant pounding" :D!

Jeff, I feel like reporting you to Vatican for brainwashing young Omani girls, but I wont because I know the Pope will protect you like he protected the pedophile priests :hyper:.

LoL, just kidding. I know what you mean Jeff, but lets stop this pathetic condescending attitude. We are all equal. Lets have peace and love. Let us work as humans for a better world. Let us be productive to improve humanity and all life on the planet.

Writing long posts about drawings that insult some and have no effect on others is childish. Its not worth discussion.

P.S. Hope you had a good birthday Brother ;)

[Russo_turisto]

^^

The reason for Draw Mohammed Day was because many Westerners felt that YOU insulted US!

For generations, we have been able to draw whoever we wanted! Historical figures, national figures, religious figures. Anybody!

If we hurt somebody's feelings, that was THEIR problem!

This was OUR culture.

And suddenly we woke up to find that there was ONE figure--somebody who didn't have much value to most of us--that a group of people were telling us we could NOT draw...without facing death or the threat of it.

So the reaction from many Westerners was:

"Who the HELL do you think you ARE? To tell us that we can't think and act about this guy as we think best? In OUR countries?

"Why should we have to follow YOUR rules? Why should we respect YOUR prophet? Why can't we simply do what we always have done and say and draw what WE think is appropriate?"

Draw Mohammed Day was not about "insulting Mohammed". It was about saying to you folks, "WE get to decide WHO WE DRAW and HOW! NOT YOU!"

In fact, Draw Mohammed Day was not about Muslims at all. It was about US. About us Westerners.

Will we be people who will be frightened into adopting other people's standards? Standards we don't believe in? Or will we be people who will insist on following our own standards?

In other words, it's not just WE who have to try to understand YOUR feelings. It is also YOU who have to try to understand OURS.

I think a lot of you don't get that. I think UmK DID.


For a second, I thought I was reading a post by Thalia - so frank it was :D
It's really nice to see you coming to terms with self-respect instead of trying to be sugary sweet to all.

There's no crime in defending your values when you're home.
Freedom of speech and press has been part of Western identity for hundreds of years - and it's really strange to see newcomers demanding that a newspaper or an artist be shut up, let alone killing someone.

Islam should be subject to questioning like any other religion or secular concept in the world. There's no justification for placing a taboo on it.

On the other hand, I agree that the best reaction would have been ignoring the cartoon.. or.. settling somewhere else if you don't like the conditions in the kaffir Sweden/Denmark.

UmK, I wanted to say that I admire your attitude... for your apparent desire for all sides to see what it's like walking in the others' shoes. :)

[STING]

UmK, I wanted to say that I admire your attitude... for your apparent desire for all sides to see what it's like walking in the others' shoes. :)

Wow UmK, what a honor! You're so lucky. More reasons to feel good. Being admired by a someone who has turned from Christianity to Islam, then to Atheism, then to Judaism, then Zionism, then back to Christianity and now Atheism again, I think, all in 3 years :mmhmm:

[Bimzoori]

Islam should be subject to questioning like any other religion or secular concept in the world. There's no justification for placing a taboo on it.



Questioned by illustrating the Prophet PBUH in the worst ways possible? what sort of questioning is that? A very uncivilized one...

Islam has always been under the spotlight and has always been criticized and challenged by non-Muslims and we do no object to a mature and civilized questioning of our faith. Scholars in the west are used to that and are always ready to debate and answer back. They have kept the lines of communication open. Those depictions do not add any value to the on-going discussions nor are they an expression of freedom of speech. They are merely an expression of hatred with an intention to insult and has only resulted in bitterness from our end.

What I find most disturbing is that non-Muslims in our countries are received with open arms, hospitality and utmost respect. No where in our newspapers will you ever find us mock other religions whether by depictions or by words. We live and work amongst Christians, Sikhs and Hindus and never disrespect their faith in such manners. If we discuss, we discuss maturely and with facts.

[STING]

In fact, Draw Mohammed Day was not about Muslims at all. It was about US. About us Westerners.

....

I think a lot of you don't get that. I think UmK DID.

Out of VOLUNTARY respect for my friends and what they hold dear.

BTW Jeff, just to clarify, if you read my post again, whether in this thread or other ones, I have no problem with some American, British, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, Australian, Mexican or Catholic drawing paintings of Prophet Muhammad or anybody else.

In fact, you can draw one really insulting one right here and shove it up in some esteemed location. I don't care. Muslims should not care.

I agree about Muslim response; they are way over the line and at many times childish and stupid. Check the thread about 'head-butting Swedish cartoonist'.

My post was about 3 very clear and simple things:

1. This whole issue of cartoons is silly and a waste of time for all humans involved

2. Muslim members should be free thinkers. They can turn into insect worshipers for all I care, but through free thinking. Being influenced by others or reacting to Draw Prophets Day to send mysterious messages in silly and waste of time

3. Non Muslims, who get hurt, insulted or angered, however the reaction, when someone quests their believes or the actions of their Bishops and Pope on factual, real and contemporary matter, should not come here and advise Muslims about Islam. If you were an Atheist, it would be make sense to question faith in God or anger over insults of Prophets, but you appear to me as a die-hard Catholic.

Influencing teenagers and those unsure of their culture, religion and origins over the internet, and those with weak personalities and naive perspective of life, is easy and maybe entertaining. But its not productive and doesn't add-up, if you know what I mean.

[STING]

What I find most disturbing is that non-Muslims in our countries are received with open arms, hospitality and utmost respect. No where in our newspapers will you ever find us mock other religions whether by depictions or by words. We live and work amongst Christians, Sikhs and Hindus and never disrespect their faith in such manners. If we discuss, we discuss maturely and with facts.

Exhibit A: English Sabla

[Diabian]

^ I agree with Sting. We shouldn't react violently to the offense made by the rednecks... but we, as muslims, shouldn't be joining them in their effort to draw the prophet either... because its one of the mushtabahat (if not haram), and because this will definitely offend more muslims!!

[STING]

^ I agree with Sting. We shouldn't react violently to the offense made by the rednecks... but we, as muslims, shouldn't be joining them in their effort to draw the prophet either... because its one of the mushtabahat (if not haram), and because this will definitely offend more muslims!!

LoL @ Red Necks :XD:

But seriously, let us forget about Mushtabahat and all. If Muslims themselves come up some event or activity that might be controversial, no issue, its result of free thinking.

But its just silly, childish, stupid and slave-like behavior to entertain, give attention and response to some "rednecks"!

[FAITH86]

Mrs. Kamakazy,

Can't admire you enough. Good to see you posting again. You just said it all! :super:

[Diabian]

For a second, I thought I was reading a post by Thalia - so frank it was :D
It's really nice to see you coming to terms with self-respect instead of trying to be sugary sweet to all.

There's no crime in defending your values when you're home.
Freedom of speech and press has been part of Western identity for hundreds of years - and it's really strange to see newcomers demanding that a newspaper or an artist be shut up, let alone killing someone.

Islam should be subject to questioning like any other religion or secular concept in the world. There's no justification for placing a taboo on it.

On the other hand, I agree that the best reaction would have been ignoring the cartoon.. or.. settling somewhere else if you don't like the conditions in the kaffir Sweden/Denmark.

UmK, I wanted to say that I admire your attitude... for your apparent desire for all sides to see what it's like walking in the others' shoes. :)
Couldn't agree more :)

[Russo_turisto]

Questioned by illustrating the Prophet PBUH in the worst ways possible? what sort of questioning is that? A very uncivilized one...

Islam has always been under the spotlight and has always been criticized and challenged by non-Muslims and we do no object to a mature and civilized questioning of our faith. Scholars in the west are used to that and are always ready to debate and answer back. They have kept the lines of communication open. Those depictions do not add any value to the on-going discussions nor are they an expression of freedom of speech. They are merely an expression of hatred with an intention to insult and has only resulted in bitterness from our end.

What I find most disturbing is that non-Muslims in our countries are received with open arms, hospitality and utmost respect. No where in our newspapers will you ever find us mock other religions whether by depictions or by words. We live and work amongst Christians, Sikhs and Hindus and never disrespect their faith in such manners. If we discuss, we discuss maturely and with facts.

I agree, if a picture lacks any idea and its aim is just to mock, I guess it's rather a shame than a manifestation of free speech.

But had it received just ZERO reaction from ALL of Muslims (as if that's possible) and had the hooting and cursing and threating reaction for the provocation been less predictable, IT would ve been frowned upon and laughed at even in the West.

Unfortunately, it was almost welcomed by both Muslims and Islamophobes because the former did exactly what the latter expected.. according to their vision of Muslims.

As for the mature discussion, I didn't notice much going on here. Basically any topic in the religions sabla reduces to laughing off the Trinity if it receives much worthy contribution from Christian members.. I wonder if that's different in real life.

As Jeff said, in the Western press (unlike yours) there's a long tradition of questioning and caricaturing various figures... no one's protected from that and that's what they hold for a value. Fair enough, in my opinion.

[STING]

As for the mature discussion, I didn't notice much going on here. Basically any topic in the religions sabla reduces to laughing off the Trinity if it receives much worthy contribution from Christian members.. I wonder if that's different in real life.

Oh a Christian again. Way to go!


As Jeff said, in the Western press (unlike yours) there's a long tradition of questioning and caricaturing various figures... no one's protected from that and that's what they hold for a value. Fair enough, in my opinion.

So weird whenever something even mentions Holocaust the "Western Press" start shitting left and right. Forget cartoons and media, in West, even Academics get jailed for researching on holocaust. I know a certain "moody" member in Sabla who gets very sensitive when Hitler's positive traits are discussed.

Press is free and mature if its discussing things about others, but collapses on itself when "sensitive" issues are discussed?

This is hypocrisy:

Holocaust Denial Punishment by Country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_law_aga_hol_den_pen_for_vio_min-holocaust-denial-penalties-violation-minimum)

[Diabian]

^ Russo... Dunno if you're aware of this, but Prophet Mohammed was featured in 2001 in South Park cartoon on comedy central... and no reaction was made by the muslim community what so ever. The fact that this time the right wing media heavily promoted the cartoon, and because it followed the "Danish terrorist cartoon of the prophet"... this causes a build-up of negative reactions... and just caused what it caused.... the western media was asking for it..

[STING]

^ I will dedicate my life to Western media if they print one small article about possibility of Holocaust figures being inaccurate, as researchers found in universities but were shut up and punished.

Western media is a joke. All those who follow it blindly are jokes. All media is like that, in fact.

In another thread, I asked Marianna why she hated Ahmedinejad so overwhelmingly, she told me its because her Iranian friend told her stories! In reality, she has not idea she is unconsciously being fed shit by media in her country.

[Diabian]

^ Sadly it is the media. Or else, I wonder why people like Jeff and Jack will never question why is it necessary for America to pay Israel billions and billions of $$$ frm tax payers money even 20 years after the end of the cold war. The right wing media made it a norm, a tradition, a must, a God-assigned job to pay those hundreds of billions to Israel while millions and millions of Americans are losing their homes, education and health (well before Obama-Health-Care).. The media makes them believe that Israel is as important, if not more, as Texas to the USA !! And they'll accept it even though its from their own pocket money!!

[FAITH86]

^ reminds me of a song by outlandish, the lyrics goes like:

Yet do u know the truth of where ya money goes
Do u let the media deceive your mind
Is this a truth that nobody knows
Has our world gone all blind

American do ya realize
That the taxes that u pay
Feed the forces that traumatize
My every living day

The truth is in outlandish songs :p :hyper:

[Russo_turisto]

^ Russo... Dunno if you're aware of this, but Prophet Mohammed was featured in 2001 in South Park cartoon on comedy central... and no reaction was made by the muslim community what so ever. The fact that this time the right wing media heavily promoted the cartoon, and because it followed the "Danish terrorist cartoon of the prophet"... this causes a build-up of negative reactions... and just caused what it caused.... the western media was asking for it..

Umm year 2001? Almost a decade ago? I can imagine your feelings caused by a patheric cartoon if you STILL remember it..:p

I watched Bruno last summer, the full uncensored version, so even though I was about to throw up several times, I managed to laugh my *** off bcuz Cohen scoffed at basically every group of "different" people and fans of political correctness alike.. and it doesn't really matter whether a media is "rightist" or "leftist", can it be that you're somehow too concerned about Western or, more specifically, American LOCAL media and politics?

it's just that life would be easier if everyone minded their own business...

[delta619]

^Word!!!! !! :D!!!

[Jeff]

STINGO:

Thanks for your kind and generous response.

I think I will leave it at that. :)

[marianna]

I guess my Iranian friend who was born and bred in Tehran is telling a pack of lies. Hmmm....not!

[Jeff]

^ Sadly it is the media. Or else, I wonder why people like Jeff and Jack will never question why is it necessary for America to pay Israel billions and billions of $$$ frm tax payers money even 20 years after the end of the cold war. The right wing media made it a norm, a tradition, a must, a God-assigned job to pay those hundreds of billions to Israel while millions and millions of Americans are losing their homes, education and health (well before Obama-Health-Care).. The media makes them believe that Israel is as important, if not more, as Texas to the USA !! And they'll accept it even though its from their own pocket money!!

Israel? :o

[UmKhalid]

Group hug!

[Jeff]

I guess my Iranian friend who was born and bred there is telling a pack of lies. Hmmm....not!

Iran?.. :o

[marianna]

Yes Um Khalid..we need it in this forum as of late. Everyone is getting too nasty. :yuk:

[Jeff]

Group hug!

Even for Poisoned Honey? :angel:

[marianna]

Yes, my friend is Iranian. AND a Republican (which is the only argument we have)...because I am a moderate Democrat but am going off topic.

[BrAiKi]

Coming from Umkhalid, I find that very weird.
It's like IceTea's asking us to respect all religions no matter what they believe in :os
But hey, I didn't join. I only came to know about it through this thread.
But having such an event would surely mean that more people know of Prophet Mohammed.

[Jeff]

Coming from Umkhalid, I find that very weird.
It's like IceTea's asking us to respect all religions no matter what they believe in :os


Funny because Icey said that very thing to me just yesterday after handing me a bouquet of roses and asking me to pray for him!

[omr]

jeff,
Do you think that drawing our prophet as a terrorist was fair to all Muslims? if the west felt that it’s their right to do so even if it hurts Muslims around the world then you should also admit that Osama had the right to bomb new York even if it meant killing innocent people. You all had to prove a point by drawing pictures of our prophet and Osama has to prove a point by killing Americans, so then why is he wrong and you are right, after all you all had to prove something even if it meant hurting or killing others.
What westerners need to understand is that there are limits in excising your right to everything otherwise there won’t be any law. All I’m saying here is you have the right to do whatever you want but do you do everything that comes across your mind even if it hurts your family/friends?

Now my question for you jeff is do you support people portraying our prophet as a pig?

[FAITH86]

Sorry guys but am against the idea of offending each other and treating each other disrespectfully, I understand where each came from...but let's discuss things in a more mature way.

"Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you" - Al Araf

"فبما رحمة من الله لنت لهم ولو كنت فضا غليظ القلب لانفضوا من حولك"
سورة الأعراف

[BrAiKi]

Diabian..
Consider this a Notice for the poor level of your discussion.
Similar attitude will leave us with no option but to issue you a warning, and that might eventually result in a ban.

[Cherry]

jeff,
Do you think that drawing our prophet as a terrorist was fair to all Muslims? if the west felt that it’s their right to do so even if it hurts Muslims around the world then you should also admit that Osama had the right to bomb new York even if it meant killing innocent people. You all had to prove a point by drawing pictures of our prophet and Osama has to prove a point by killing Americans, so then why is he wrong and you are right, after all you all had to prove something even if it meant hurting or killing others.
What westerners need to understand is that there are limits in excising your right to everything otherwise there won’t be any law. All I’m saying here is you have the right to do whatever you want but do you do everything that comes across your mind even if it hurts your family/friends?

Now my question for you jeff is do you support people portraying our prophet as a pig?

I agree with omr.
There are limits to everything... if we made a 'honor hitler day' it would come with the same reactions, or even a 'hate blacks day' there would be demonstrations everywhere to stop it. Everyone has something they wouldn't want to be made fun of. Everyone. Be it religion, family, a race whatever.
The only difference is you accept your religion to be made fun of, while we do not. We may accept that holocaust figures are fake, you do not. You get my point...

Think outside the box.

This is not freedom of speech, it's contradiction. And what happened to respect anyways?

So anyway they made a day to draw our prophet - now what? We should've joined? Participated? I think not. Most of us ignored and I guess like UmK, she tried to turn something negative into a good thing. Was she wrong or right?
I actually don't care... maybe she thought she could have one good image amongst other nasty ones... maybe. Is it islamic? - it's not for me to say, but I would've just ignored the whole thing.

[marianna]

For me, as a patroit I believe burning of the American flag is totally disgusting. I hate it because it's the symbol of my country. However, people are free here in the USA and around the world to burn it BECAUSE it is free speech. Imagine if the USA were to retaliate every time someone burned our flag. Sometimes we have to ignore ignorance.

[freemind]

For me, as a patroit I believe burning of the American flag is totally disgusting. I hate it because it's the symbol of my country. However, people are free here in the USA and around the world to burn it BECAUSE it is free speech. Imagine if the USA were to retaliate every time someone burned our flag. Sometimes we have to ignore ignorance.

hmmm valid point ..

[Jeff]

jeff,
Do you think that drawing our prophet as a terrorist was fair to all Muslims? if the west felt that it’s their right to do so even if it hurts Muslims around the world then you should also admit that Osama had the right to bomb new York even if it meant killing innocent people. You all had to prove a point by drawing pictures of our prophet and Osama has to prove a point by killing Americans, so then why is he wrong and you are right, after all you all had to prove something even if it meant hurting or killing others.
What westerners need to understand is that there are limits in excising your right to everything otherwise there won’t be any law. All I’m saying here is you have the right to do whatever you want but do you do everything that comes across your mind even if it hurts your family/friends?

Now my question for you jeff is do you support people portraying our prophet as a pig?

I don't want to drag this thread too much into what *I* think. Because this is really about something SUPER COOL that happened to UmK...and she will tell you about it.

But in brief, it depends what you mean by "support".

Do I think it's a good idea? Would I have it in MY newspaper? Would I applaud and encourage someone to do it?

No, certainly not. I would discourage them.

Do I think people have the right to draw Mohammed any way they wish, free from death threats?

Yes, I do.

This applies to what I hold as holy too. One artist famously put Jesus on the crucifix into a glass of his own urine and photographed it. "Piss Christ" it is called.

I find that HORRIBLY offensive. Makes me shudder.

I don't "support" him doing that or encourage it. But he has the right to do it and to distribute it. If I don't like it, I can just look at something else!

Look at the cartoons which are offensive to my religion that my friend STING posted. Do I like them? No. Do I approve of them? No. Do they offend me? Yes! :D

Do I want to stop him from expressing his opinion by posting them? NO! :D

Should we try to be respectful of each other's beliefs and not insult their religions? Yes, I think so. Should we kill those who offend us or try to stop them from expressing what they think? No, I don't think so.

And I don't agree that if people have the right to write or draw their opinions, then they also have the right to kill to express their opinions.

[Jeff]

I agree with omr.
There are limits to everything... if we made a 'honor hitler day' it would come with the same reactions, or even a 'hate blacks day' there would be demonstrations everywhere to stop it. Everyone has something they wouldn't want to be made fun of. Everyone. Be it religion, family, a race whatever.
The only difference is you accept your religion to be made fun of, while we do not. We may accept that holocaust figures are fake, you do not. You get my point...

Think outside the box.

This is not freedom of speech, it's contradiction. And what happened to respect anyways?

So anyway they made a day to draw our prophet - now what? We should've joined? Participated? I think not. Most of us ignored and I guess like UmK, she tried to turn something negative into a good thing. Was she wrong or right?
I actually don't care... maybe she thought she could have one good image amongst other nasty ones... maybe. Is it islamic? - it's not for me to say, but I would've just ignored the whole thing.

I agree with a lot of this....but I don't agree with the conclusion.

I mean, I agree that we shouldn't try to offend each other in deep ways.

Where I disagree is on the "try to stop it" part.

The thing is, We DO get things like Honor Hitler Day and Hate Blacks Day. Nobody stops it. Nobody protests it. Because everyone ignores it!

There is a famous case years ago in which the Neo Nazis wanted to march through a Jewish neighborhood full of Holocaust survivors near Chicago.

The courts couldn't stop them! They had to give them a permit. And Jewish lawyers who hated them went to court to defend their right to march!

You think those old people with numbers tatooed on their arms who watched all their relatives die in the death camps didn't suffer watching people march by their houses chanting support for Hitler? They did. "Offense" is too small a word.

So this is our Western tradition of free speech. You get to offend EVERYBODY. And they have to put up with it. This is how we sort ideas out.

In the end, that Nazi march just made it clear how dumb and disgusting Hitler's ideas were. It made that much more clear than if the march had been stopped.

[clouds]

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4010/boycottfacebook1.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/boycottfacebook1.jpg/)


fb is a 100% JEWISH site which promotes haterate and mockery of Islam symbols this is a call to all muslims to boycott it I already deactivated my account with them they have an appalling pages and scumbag groups in their site which attack Islam, allah swt and the Prophet peace be upon him in disgusting manners.

well done to Pakistan for officially boycotting fb the ONLY muslim country to do so

umKhalid did you become nuts to actually participate in the appalling depiction picture day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I advise you visit a psychiatric definitely something wrong with you!!!

[Muggle]

^lol.
You'll find all kinds of offensive groups. I doubt Mark Zuckerberg (the creator) started facebook to 'promote hatred and mockery of Islam'.
If you don't like a group simply ignore it or report it.
If your logic is applied then we should quit the internet altogether.

[Cherry]

I agree with a lot of this....but I don't agree with the conclusion.

I mean, I agree that we shouldn't try to offend each other in deep ways.

Where I disagree is on the "try to stop it" part.

The thing is, We DO get things like Honor Hitler Day and Hate Blacks Day. Nobody stops it. Nobody protests it. Because everyone ignores it!

There is a famous case years ago in which the Neo Nazis wanted to march through a Jewish neighborhood full of Holocaust survivors near Chicago.

The courts couldn't stop them! They had to give them a permit. And Jewish lawyers who hated them went to court to defend their right to march!

You think those old people with numbers tatooed on their arms who watched all their relatives die in the death camps didn't suffer watching people march by their houses chanting support for Hitler? They did. "Offense" is too small a word.

So this is our Western tradition of free speech. You get to offend EVERYBODY. And they have to put up with it. This is how we sort ideas out.

In the end, that Nazi march just made it clear how dumb and disgusting Hitler's ideas were. It made that much more clear than if the march had been stopped.


I'm sorry but what you westerns consider freedom of speech, I'd say it's more like igniting hatred...

But that is the problem with the west. People are free to do what they want and to tell the world about it too. Like Gay rights - they also want freedom of speech too, and whatever else they label it under. Tomorrow pedophiles would be free to have sex which children...' hey freedom of speech' if they both consent to it what's everyone else's problem.. right? Freedom freedom freedom... to what end Jeff? Where's the limit is what I'm trying to ask?!?!
I feel the west is going in a direction with this whole 'freedom' thing, to a point they won't be able to control it anymore

[marianna]

The thing is, with freedom of speech there WILL be issues like what we are discussing here. The US Constitution states that in addition to free speech people are free to practice whatever religion they choose which ALSO includes the veil, mosques, etc....Freedom of speech also means being able to voice your opinions against the government if you don't like them. There is good and bad in every single thing on this planet.

[Russo_turisto]

I'm sorry but what you westerns consider freedom of speech, I'd say it's more like igniting hatred...

But that is the problem with the west. People are free to do what they want and to tell the world about it too. Like Gay rights - they also want freedom of speech too, and whatever else they label it under. Tomorrow pedophiles would be free to have sex which children...' hey freedom of speech' if they both consent to it what's everyone else's problem.. right? Freedom freedom freedom... to what end Jeff? Where's the limit is what I'm trying to ask?!?!
I feel the west is going in a direction with this whole 'freedom' thing, to a point they won't be able to control it anymore

lawl at the gay 2 paedophile comparison. :D but you know, I don't think control over citizens is exactly what the Western states want. If it were so, there would be no diversity or plurality there. Maybe they should hold it though before their societies become way too diverse to sustain themselves...
Posted via Mobile Device

[marianna]

Indeed...we could end up like certain countries where plurality is pretty much frowned upon.....I don't like these cartoons. I don't like Jesus portrayed in a negative light but sometimes with freedom we have the good along with the bad. it's all about perspective. Not everyone is going to respect every single thing you believe in just like you won't. (And by you am including the entire world population).

[DarK PrincesS]

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4010/boycottfacebook1.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/boycottfacebook1.jpg/)


fb is a 100% JEWISH site which promotes haterate and mockery of Islam symbols this is a call to all muslims to boycott it I already deactivated my account with them they have an appalling pages and scumbag groups in their site which attack Islam, allah swt and the Prophet peace be upon him in disgusting manners.

well done to Pakistan for officially boycotting fb the ONLY muslim country to do so

umKhalid did you become nuts to actually participate in the appalling depiction picture day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I advise you visit a psychiatric definitely something wrong with you!!!


Uhhhh, the world doesn't revolve around us, and people don't do stuff thinking " oooooh lets make a whole website to promote islam mockery"
:rolleyes:

[Jeff]

I'm sorry but what you westerns consider freedom of speech, I'd say it's more like igniting hatred...

But that is the problem with the west. People are free to do what they want and to tell the world about it too. Like Gay rights - they also want freedom of speech too, and whatever else they label it under. Tomorrow pedophiles would be free to have sex which children...' hey freedom of speech' if they both consent to it what's everyone else's problem.. right? Freedom freedom freedom... to what end Jeff? Where's the limit is what I'm trying to ask?!?!
I feel the west is going in a direction with this whole 'freedom' thing, to a point they won't be able to control it anymore

Well, I don't mind people arguing that there SHOULDN'T be freedom of speech.

The only thing I would ask is that you guys ALSO try to understand why we have it and why it's so important to us.

If you ask us to understand your traditions, why should you not also try to understand ours?

Isn't that fair?

Okay, you say "igniting hatred". I get that. It's a valid point.

But we would say: So many kinds of speech do that!

Suppose you say something nasty about George Bush and his cousin hates you for it. Does that mean you have to stop?

Suppose STING puts up a cartoon about the Pope and a Catholic hates him for it. Does that mean they can kill him?

Because if you criticize Bush or STING mocks the Pope, you are really expressing your opinion, aren't you? Do you have a right to think Bush is bad and say so? Does STING have a right to say the Pope is bad?

So OUR TRADITION says that expressing what you think is true is good for everybody. And if some people get hurt or insulted, the problem lies with them. They have to learn to control it.

If you ask somebody not to mock Mohammed or you protest a newspaper that publishes a nasty cartoon, I support that.

The problem comes when people start threatening and killing or demanding that the laws be changed to fit their ideas.

In the United States, our Constitution gives people the right to mock anyone or anybody. Or to praise them.

We have had that rule for more than 200 years. Since our country began.

So, do you seriously think we should change it for the sake of people across the world who disagree? :)

We don't single you out. The rules apply to me and my religion just as much as they do to you and yours. People mock my religion all the time. And I live with it!

So, all I'm asking is to try to see it our way too.

[Diabian]

For me, as a patroit I believe burning of the American flag is totally disgusting. I hate it because it's the symbol of my country. However, people are free here in the USA and around the world to burn it BECAUSE it is free speech. Imagine if the USA were to retaliate every time someone burned our flag. Sometimes we have to ignore ignorance.

Mariana.... Its not only people overseas who burn your flag... in fact, Glenn Beck (the face of the republican media and right wing) and Elena Kegan (your new supreme courst pick) they both are against a constitutional ban on flag burning.. because its a way to express anger towards a government policy!!

so please... please... ya?!

[LORDMUS]

Mariana.... Its not only people overseas who burn your flag... in fact, Glenn Beck (the face of the republican media and right wing) and Elena Kegan (your new supreme courst pick) they both are against a constitutional ban on flag burning.. because its a way to express anger towards a government policy!!

so please... please... ya?!

Him and O'riley are the X-rated factor on inernetz. LOL they both give me bad time controlling my laughter at times I wet myself.
Oh god.... LOL.. I swear I can picture them two right now... while on one hand bill has ego issues and glenn? lol eats too much to keep his mouth saturate enough for the democrats to "ahm" over it.

[Cherry]

Well, I don't mind people arguing that there SHOULDN'T be freedom of speech.

The only thing I would ask is that you guys ALSO try to understand why we have it and why it's so important to us.

If you ask us to understand your traditions, why should you not also try to understand ours?

Isn't that fair?

Okay, you say "igniting hatred". I get that. It's a valid point.

But we would say: So many kinds of speech do that!

Suppose you say something nasty about George Bush and his cousin hates you for it. Does that mean you have to stop?

Suppose STING puts up a cartoon about the Pope and a Catholic hates him for it. Does that mean they can kill him?

Because if you criticize Bush or STING mocks the Pope, you are really expressing your opinion, aren't you? Do you have a right to think Bush is bad and say so? Does STING have a right to say the Pope is bad?

So OUR TRADITION says that expressing what you think is true is good for everybody. And if some people get hurt or insulted, the problem lies with them. They have to learn to control it.

If you ask somebody not to mock Mohammed or you protest a newspaper that publishes a nasty cartoon, I support that.

The problem comes when people start threatening and killing or demanding that the laws be changed to fit their ideas.

In the United States, our Constitution gives people the right to mock anyone or anybody. Or to praise them.

We have had that rule for more than 200 years. Since our country began.

So, do you seriously think we should change it for the sake of people across the world who disagree? :)

We don't single you out. The rules apply to me and my religion just as much as they do to you and yours. People mock my religion all the time. And I live with it!

So, all I'm asking is to try to see it our way too.

Jeff I am seeing it your way, all I'm saying is this 'freedom' is being abused now..it initially meant well, but all people are doing is causing trouble for themselves. The way freedom was implemented was wrong to begin with. Because we are not free. In reality we are not.
There are rules, there are laws, I don't need to break this down to you Jeff.

If I insult one person it's different than so many people summoning eachother on a particular day to humiliate a certain religion. It's childish, senseless and just stupid. If your freedom of speech supports this, then for every action there's a reaction. Definitely... if your religion gets offended and you can't do anything about it, it's because you yourself let it happen. It's the same as having a child and letting the child insult you - their father. You let them do it once, twice - then it becomes the norm. The next thing you know it's the kid's right to swear at their parents. Oh wait. It is freedom of speech isn't it?


So, do you seriously think we should change it for the sake of people across the world who disagree? :)

I don't expect you to change Jeff. I mean your country or the west. I am stating that it's being abused, and if your country/the west are smart enough, they'd stop provoking others. We're living in a global world. Your next door neighbour isn't who it used to be. Just like how we, in the gulf are adapting to international standards, so should you.

[omr]

Jeff
i got you point, just keep it short the next time instead of repeating the same things over and over. Man you are a true American, for a minute you sounded like bush himself.

You know If you had a religion then only you would understand what i was trying to say.

[Diabian]

I read this somewhere... and lets see how Jeff justifies it:)

When you attack Black people, they call it racism.
When you attack Jewish people, they call it anti-semitism.
When you attack women, they call it sexism.
When you attack homosexuality, they call it intolerance.
When you attack your Country, they call it treason.
When you attack the Pope, they call it the new holocaust.
When you attack priests abused children, they call it collective violent hate.
But when you attack the Prophet Mohammad, they call it "freedom of speech" !

[Diabian]

Him and O'riley are the X-rated factor on inernetz. LOL they both give me bad time controlling my laughter at times I wet myself.
Oh god.... LOL.. I swear I can picture them two right now... while on one hand bill has ego issues and glenn? lol eats too much to keep his mouth saturate enough for the democrats to "ahm" over it.

Those two goons know they are just putting on a show... they know they're fooling people.. thats all.

[delta619]

I read this somewhere... and lets see how Jeff justifies it:)

When you attack Black people, they call it racism.
When you attack Jewish people, they call it anti-semitism.
When you attack women, they call it sexism.
When you attack homosexuality, they call it intolerance.
When you attack your Country, they call it treason.
When you attack the Pope, they call it the new holocaust.
When you attack priests abused children, they call it collective violent hate.
But when you attack the Prophet Mohammad, they call it "freedom of speech" !

i read this somewhere on this forum and on facebook...

also the last line for your info can also be interpreted as following:
But when you attack Jesus, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack the Hindu gods, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack Microsoft, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack Oprah, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack Jackson, they call it "freedom of speech"


:rolleyes: any comments???

[Diabian]

^ seriously... ever seen anyone attacking jesus?! on this forum??? dont lie..

And please don't try to change the subject... its about Prophet Mohammed and drawing him... so if you wana talk about other issues, get your own topic.

[Jeff]

Jeff
i got you point, just keep it short the next time instead of repeating the same things over and over. Man you are a true American, for a minute you sounded like bush himself.

You know If you had a religion then only you would understand what i was trying to say.

I am a very serious Catholic and I *DO* get what you are saying.

[delta619]

@Diabian: y u bringing up forum? do u live in the forum?? or in the real world??

and i have read incidents fyi!!

[marianna]

I guess if one were to look at the Trinity and how Christians view Jesus as being part of that and mocking our beliefs those actions can be seen by Christians as an attack on Jesus but then again this forum as become very nasty of late and distasteful in how we are treating one another.

[Jeff]

I read this somewhere... and lets see how Jeff justifies it:)

When you attack Black people, they call it racism.
When you attack Jewish people, they call it anti-semitism.
When you attack women, they call it sexism.
When you attack homosexuality, they call it intolerance.
When you attack your Country, they call it treason.
When you attack the Pope, they call it the new holocaust.
When you attack priests abused children, they call it collective violent hate.
But when you attack the Prophet Mohammad, they call it "freedom of speech" !

I think it misses the point.

I am not advocating attacking your religion. I discourage it.

But I defend people's right to attack your religion and mine, both.

It is ALLOWED to attack all those things, you know.

You can attack black people, you can attack your country. And others can respond by saying, You bad person, shame on you!

The Ku Klux Klan can march in America and call for a return to slavery. And they do! No one can stop them. And if you threaten them seriously or if you attack them, you go to jail.

We all defend their right to do that.

I criticize them, but I defend their right to say what they want.

[Diabian]

i read this somewhere on this forum and on facebook...

also the last line for your info can also be interpreted as following:
But when you attack Jesus, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack the Hindu gods, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack Microsoft, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack Oprah, they call it "freedom of speech"

But when you attack Jackson, they call it "freedom of speech"


:rolleyes: any comments???

Nop... am living on facebook :rn:

[UmKhalid]

Oh dear, thread progressed!

Putting aside the off-topics about pedophilia and Israel and Pepsi, there are things we should try to Understand.

1-They do not see the prophet :PBUH: as “The Prophet”, they see him as: “An Arab guy”.

2- They have the right to mock Any Thing They Want. It’s something they’re brought up on. Nothing is holy if they don’t choose it to be. A Christian American can make fun of Islam, a Muslim American can make fun of Christianity – no one is going to kill the other over it.


Now is it Correct? Is this how we as humans should treat each other? That’s something else. Freedom should come with morals. BUT! If someone didn’t have that feeling towards others, should the reaction to that be: Kill him?

They’re not Evil. They actually feel threatened, they feel that one of their basic rights might be taken away because of a dangerous group (us). That’s how they see it. And in order to fight back, they decided they’re not going to just allow “those Muslims” to deny them the right to express themselves as they want, but will fight back … and hence: “Draw Mohammed Day”.

They didn’t sit down one day and just go: You know what, we really feel like making all Muslims go apeshit, let's insult them Muslims by making fun of their respected figure.

Or maybe they did since it's actually fun seeing us go apeshit, right?

But anyway, try to understand that.

And also before being upset again, go read Delta's post, he raised some interesting points we keep forgetting about ourselves - we're not perfect.

[delta619]

@Diabian: your question has been answered by Marianna. Any more silly things to state??? and wow thats your response after getting cornered? lol shows your intellect!!!

@UmKhalid: i tip my hat to your posts. its very interesting. and yes we humans can never be perfect. perfection is sought but seldom achieved.

[Threadlike]

^lol.
You'll find all kinds of offensive groups. I doubt Mark Zuckerberg (the creator) started facebook to 'promote hatred and mockery of Islam'.
If you don't like a group simply ignore it or report it.
If your logic is applied then we should quit the internet altogether.

Yes we should do that.
Then we'd find people in the television trying to mock us...CROSS-CONTINENT MOCKERY! Boycott them too!
Then if we meet someone in the street trying to mock us, we BOYCOTT THEM TOO! In fact, my vote is for every Muslim to just lock himself up to prevent himself from hearing or seeing any mockery of any kind and prevent himself from having any civil discussion with anyone!

Right, switching sarcasm mode off.

What UmK was trying to say is so painful that almost nobody here is trying to at least take the time to understand it. I think her idea is: The reason the Western artists keep on painting these cartoons is because we send them the wrong image. Not the media, not the papers, not the internet, US. Whether or not you should be concerned with sending the right image is subject to the answer of whether or not you want the message of Islam to spread. Islam is not in a popularity contest, but it is in a dawah contest. Like any religion, Islam calls its followers to call people to join in and see the Truth. And people are not going to join in or at the least respect you if you're not willing to listen to them; even if what they say might seem 'insulting'.

One last thing that's kind of off-topic: I seriously don't get why so many people like to pick on Jeff and marianna on threads like this. These two are about the nicest two people on the freakin' forum and nobody bothers to actually acknowledge the amount of patience they take to respond so politely to all the offenses thrown their way.

[Jeff]

Cherry:

You know, I sympathize with what you are saying a lot. As far as voluntary behavior goes, I agree with you.

And things like racist talk here are very small and hardly noticed, but that's not because of the law or because of people threatening death. It's just because of the social attitude.

I think what you miss though is that for us, the right to mock religion is not a new development. And it's not something at the fringe of free speech. It's right there at the core of it.

The more important something is, the more important the right to criticize it--even in harsh terms--becomes.

Since ideas about God and our place in the world are super important, it's super important to be able to say exactly what we think about anybody who comes along and says, "I am a Messenger of God!"

The way we see it, if we have the right to praise him, we must equally have the right to blame him.

NO ONE MUST BE ALLOWED TO TELL US WHO TO HONOR. HONOR MUST BE THE FREE GIFT OF THE HEART.

The thing is, this goes against the grain in most traditional societies. So I understand the Muslims' reactions.

To tell the truth, I am not so worried about all these things. I think we are in the process of learning how to live with each other. And I think after a few decades, we will work it out.

And in the meantime, I will respect my Muslim friends and their prophet freely and from my heart! :)

[Diabian]

@Diabian: your question has been answered by Marianna. Any more silly things to state??? and wow thats your response after getting cornered? lol shows your intellect!!!

@UmKhalid: i tip my hat to your posts. its very interesting. and yes we humans can never be perfect. perfection is sought but seldom achieved.

Delta... U mentioned forum and facebook first!! wht r u talkin abt ?!!!! bt am sure u will never ever find a muslim who attacks jesus... and i said later on this forum because its an example. But heck... even if ur real life, never a muslim would attack jesus. so there u go.. u got my answer... but please dont change the subject of this topic again.

[Jeff]

Yes we should do that.
Then we'd find people in the television trying to mock us...CROSS-CONTINENT MOCKERY! Boycott them too!
Then if we meet someone in the street trying to mock us, we BOYCOTT THEM TOO! In fact, my vote is for every Muslim to just lock himself up to prevent himself from hearing or seeing any mockery of any kind and prevent himself from having any civil discussion with anyone!

Right, switching sarcasm mode off.

What UmK was trying to say is so painful that almost nobody here is trying to at least take the time to understand it. I think her idea is: The reason the Western artists keep on painting these cartoons is because we send them the wrong image. Not the media, not the papers, not the internet, US. Whether or not you should be concerned with sending the right image is subject to the answer of whether or not you want the message of Islam to spread. Islam is not in a popularity contest, but it is in a dawah contest. Like any religion, Islam calls its followers to call people to join in and see the Truth. And people are not going to join in or at the least respect you if you're not willing to listen to them; even if what they say might seem 'insulting'.

One last thing that's kind of off-topic: I seriously don't get why so many people like to pick on Jeff and marianna on threads like this. These two are about the nicest two people on the freakin' forum and nobody bothers to actually acknowledge the amount of patience they take to respond so politely to all the offenses thrown their way.

Aww, look at all the other freakin nice people, like you and UmK and Cherry and Lacrymosa and so many others! :)

Seriously though, yeah, I like what you said about dawah. It's not a tribal popularity contest and people make religion like that.

As far as people giving me a hard time, you know, that's the same issue! :D People insult or mock what I believe or how I am. Sometimes it hurts! :D But how should I respond?

But trying to kill them? By getting insulted?

No! Because in the end, the things that hurt or bother me are probably the things I need to hear most. That's what I can learn from.

Besides, they are saying what they think! I WANT TO HEAR WHAT THEY TRULY THINK!

How can I love them if I don't?

[Jeff]

Delta... U mentioned forum and facebook first!! wht r u talkin abt ?!!!! bt am sure u will never ever find a muslim who attacks jesus... and i said later on this forum because its an example. But heck... even if ur real life, never a muslim would attack jesus. so there u go.. u got my answer... but please dont change the subject of this topic again.

Well, but I have seen Jesus attacked by non-Muslims here.

And I have seen the Christian idea of Jesus mocked by Muslims here.

And of course, Jesus is mocked in the West much more than Mohammed is.

[Diabian]

Aww, look at all the other freakin nice people, like you and UmK and Cherry and Lacrymosa and so many others! :)

Seriously though, yeah, I like what you said about dawah. It's not a tribal popularity contest and people make religion like that.

As far as people giving me a hard time, you know, that's the same issue! :D People insult or mock what I believe or how I am. Sometimes it hurts! :D But how should I respond?

But trying to kill them? By getting insulted?

No! Because in the end, the things that hurt or bother me are probably the things I need to hear most. That's what I can learn from.

Besides, they are saying what they think! I WANT TO HEAR WHAT THEY TRULY THINK!

How can I love them if I don't?

Jeff... you are not saying that only muslims are the people who attack and kill others who they don't agree with them, are you??

[Diabian]

Well, but I have seen Jesus attacked by non-Muslims here.

And I have seen the Christian idea of Jesus mocked by Muslims here.

And of course, Jesus is mocked in the West much more than Mohammed is.

In conclusion, you will never find a muslim ATTACKING JESUS... Thank you very much for confirming.

[UmKhalid]

Please. Muslims. Stop pointing back.

People other than us have also done mistakes, but if we just point at them we're never going to realize ours, we should stop acting like the victim here.

[Diabian]

^ they are the one drawing. They are the ones mocking our prophet. They are the ones saying that they feel victimized by muslims for not letting them draw and mock our prophet. We cannot defend our prophet.. we cannot criticize their actions.. we are told that we should draw too or just shut up!! And you are telling us that we should stop acting like victims here?! wow...

[delta619]

Delta... U mentioned forum and facebook first!! wht r u talkin abt ?!!!! bt am sure u will never ever find a muslim who attacks jesus... and i said later on this forum because its an example. But heck... even if ur real life, never a muslim would attack jesus. so there u go.. u got my answer... but please dont change the subject of this topic again.

you shouldn't copy any material of someones without giving them their credit mate.... but besides i was just quoting what you stated and added a twist. and again remove your rose tinted specs and go and read up... there have been many threads attacking Christianity beliefs, trinity and Jesus at times.

I'm just enlightening you thus i dont think i'm off topic... thanks for your concern you are such a gem *yawn*!!

[UmKhalid]

So we're all acting like bloody victims ... what about WE stop first?

[Diabian]

you shouldn't copy any material of someones without giving them their credit mate.... but besides i was just quoting what you stated and added a twist. and again remove your rose tinted specs and go and read up... there have been many threads attacking Christianity beliefs, trinity and Jesus at times.

I'm just enlightening you thus i dont think i'm off topic... thanks for your concern you are such a gem *yawn*!!

I quote Joe Wilson "you lie".. no "muslim" "attacked Jesus" before...ever... surely not on this forum.

[delta619]

^always a pleasure chatting folks having tunnel vision frame of mind!!

have to rep UmKhalid's posts!!

[Diabian]

So we're all acting like bloody victims ... what about WE stop first?

No one was acting victim UmK. You know shi3a don't mind drawing the prophet (yes even Mohammad pbuh)... but I was still against it... using my own mind based on two points: mushtabahat + don't offend majority of muslims.

I was not the one who talked about 'who the hell you are to tell me not to insult your prophet' !! I was not the one who talked about being 'threatened to be killed' .... non of the muslim members did...There you have your victim...

[Jeff]

No one was acting victim UmK. You know shi3a don't mind drawing the prophet (yes even Mohammad pbuh)... but I was still against it... using my own mind based on two points: mushtabahat + don't offend majority of muslims.

I was not the one who talked about 'who the hell you are to tell me not to insult your prophet' !! I was not the one who talked about being 'threatened to be killed' .... non of the muslim members did...There you have your victim...

I think her point is saying, "How dare you do this to us? You are insulting us!" is playing victim.

She is saying, look at the origin. It didn't start with people waking up one day and saying, "Let's make Muslims mad. Let's hurt their feelings".

[aidsmonger911]

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4010/boycottfacebook1.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/boycottfacebook1.jpg/)


fb is a 100% JEWISH site which promotes haterate and mockery of Islam symbols this is a call to all muslims to boycott it I already deactivated my account with them they have an appalling pages and scumbag groups in their site which attack Islam, allah swt and the Prophet peace be upon him in disgusting manners.

well done to Pakistan for officially boycotting fb the ONLY muslim country to do so

umKhalid did you become nuts to actually participate in the appalling depiction picture day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I advise you visit a psychiatric definitely something wrong with you!!!

☻/ This is Mohammed, copy & paste him on
/▌ every comment you see so he can
/ \ take over YouTube.

[UmKhalid]

Stick figure is waving at you, clouds. ;-)

[Jeff]

^^

Actually this brings up a very interesting point:

What IS "drawing Mohammed"?

Is that "drawing Mohammed"?

If that's drawing Mohammed then the empty page with the title "Mohammed after invisibility potion" is drawing Mohammed.

All anyone needs to do is point at anything and say, "Mohammed!"

Pretty soon, all they have to do is point at anything and wink and nod.

Where does it end?

[freemind]

^^

Actually this brings up a very interesting point:

What IS "drawing Mohammed"?

Is that "drawing Mohammed"?

If that's drawing Mohammed then the empty page with the title "Mohammed after invisibility potion" is drawing Mohammed.

All anyone needs to do is point at anything and say, "Mohammed!"

Pretty soon, all they have to do is point at anything and wink and nod.

Where does it end?

lol .. imagine coming 2 such a situation ... wink .. nod .. headbutt :D

[UmKhalid]

On the Draw Mohammed Day FB page, there were actually very decent drawings, sketches attributed to the prophet. Some drew a handsome Arab man.

Sure, some were R-rated-awful, but not all. What about those? The decent ones? Are they still 'insulting'?

What about the stick figure up there posted by aidsmonger911? Is that insulting?

I seriously can't see you all keeping up with the "I am offended" mode when someone points at a cupcake and goes: That's Mohammed. Can you?

[Jeff]

On the Draw Mohammed Day FB page, there were actually very decent drawings, sketches attributed to the prophet. Some drew a handsome Arab man.

Sure, some were R-rated-awful, but not all. What about those? The decent ones? Are they still 'insulting'?

What about the stick figure up there posted by aidsmonger911? Is that insulting?

I seriously can't see you all keeping up with the "I am offended" mode when someone points at a cupcake and goes: That's Mohammed. Can you?

This is why I am optimistic in the end.

I think all the talking about getting insulted and where to draw the line, is getting people used to talking about these things.

It's going to take a while, but you can't keep getting furious with ever person who points at cupcakes.

Eventually, people will learn to live with the fact that some people love Mohammed and others detest him, and that's just a normal part of life.

[aidsmonger911]

For your viewing pleasure!

☻/ This is Jesus, copy & paste him on
/▌ every comment you see so he eat food.
/ \

☻/ This is Buddha, copy & paste him on
/▌ every comment you see so he can share coke with Moses.
/ \

☻/ This is Mohammed, copy & paste him on
/▌ every comment you see so he can eat cheese pizza.
/ \

☻/ This is Moses, copy & paste him on
/▌ every comment you see so he can do coke.
/ \

Am I missing any religious figures? Please do let me know I should have represented all the world major religions in this post. Infidels, heretics, blasphemers, idolaters, blah blah blah.

The absurdity is that all of these people, holy or not, were still men. They lived, breathed, bled, sweat, cried, and all the like - just like you and I. Oh and guess what at the core of all their major philosophies they said one thing "be nice to each other". That's it, that's the deeper meaning - respect people of the book, treat others as you want to be treated, live a good and just life etc etc etc. Not behead him because he drew a stick figure - somewhere someone missed the point.

Oh and on a final note, learn2history, the ban on drawing Mohammed is from within the past 400 years. Plus, learn to be sectarian as Shi'a are alright with depictions of Mohammed.

[STING]

@Diabian: y u bringing up forum? do u live in the forum?? or in the real world??

and i have read incidents fyi!!

I don't know about your understanding of Muslims and Islam, but if any Muslim attacks Jesus PBUH, he cannot be called a Muslim. Any prophet is holy and Muslims believe in them and respect them.

Please do share stories of Muslim artists, politicians and on insulting or attacking Jesus or anything other religious character. It would be interesting.

[STING]

I seriously can't see you all keeping up with the "I am offended" mode when someone points at a cupcake and goes: That's Mohammed. Can you?

Who is saying they were offended by any of the drawing, even the insulting and abusive ones? I personally feel not a single Muslim should be insulted by any such drawings.

But insulting or not, what is the benefit of such a day? Did you participate? Did it add value to anybody?

Also, how would you feel if I make a Draw UmK Day on facebook where people can draw decent and X-Rated cartoons of you. Are you OK with that?

[Jeff]

Re: Aids Man 9/11

Well, I think his comment is provocative and meant to be.

But it seems to me that if Muslims read it and ask themselves, "Is the trying to insult the Prophet? Is he trying to insult us?" they will see that the real answer is: No.

He is trying to push past things that are less important and to get to things that are really important.

This is what the thread is about:

What are "they" trying to do and how should we respond?

In order to know the answer, you have to be patient enough to see really what they are trying to do.

You can't say "Understand us!" without also being willing to try to understand them.

[UmKhalid]

STING,

You should've watched the news, you should've read all those decrees that came out from the Pakistani government, the FB groups with hundreds of thousands of Muslims cursing against it ... No one is "Saying" ... it's all there to see. People went crazy.

You ignored, Faith ignored, others too ... great. But people who ignored weren't as loud as people who didn't.

[Jeff]

Who is saying they were offended by any of the drawing, even the insulting and abusive ones? I personally feel not a single Muslim should be insulted by any such drawings.

But insulting or not, what is the benefit of such a day? Did you participate? Did it add value to anybody?

Also, how would you feel if I make a Draw UmK Day on facebook where people can draw decent and X-Rated cartoons of you. Are you OK with that?

Mmm, it's not a question of being happy about Draw Mohammed day.

I was not even happy about it.

It's a question of trying to understand it and then decide what to do about it.

I mean it all depends, right?

I wouldn't be happy about UmK being drawn in a disrespectful way. But part of that is that she is alive on earth and she is innocent and it would hurt her.

So I am also not happy when people insult your prophet, because my friends get hurt about it. I don't care about Mohammed's feelings, I imagine he either doesn't know or else he can handle it just fine.

But we can't stop Draw Mohammed day. So UmK is asking: Why is it REALLY here? And what should our response be?

[aidsmonger911]

So...

The root of the issue is cultural identity being tied to Islam when the two are separate beasts. Further, it's one sect speaking on behalf of all when they don't really represent Islam as a whole. What's happened is that you have one side that decides to yell louder than the other while Sufi's and Shi'a are just indifferent to the whole thing. Further, if you wanted to get technical those who are screaming about beheading those who draw the prophet are probably Whabbist if you got down an analyzed their beliefs. These are the same guys that firebombed and or murdered film makers and cartoonists. This isn't representative of you as a whole but they have taken on the mantle of "Islam" and are now representing the religion as a whole.

Whabbists yelling louder than the rest of Islam is fundamentally a bad thing for Islam and for the world as a whole. Oh wait, aren't they calling themselves Salifists now. This is the flavor of Islam being spread from Saudi Arabia to the world. Odds are if you have a Koran it's a Cairo text printed in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Which means it's been interjected with interpretations from that particular flavor of Islam. Culture, is mixed with religion and you get these hybrids that argue for a theocratic state set in 700 AD. It's a step backwards for Islam, women and the world.

What Islamic cultural identity needs is another Gamal Abdel Nasser and a secular Islamic states. Culture and religion are not interchangeable terms, they share aspects of each other but they do not define one and other. When the state is infused with religion as law you get the problem of interpretation which leads to all sorts of horrible things (see Whabbism or Salifists in Saudi Arabia).

Also... hugs2u.

[Jeff]

^^

A man who knows what the Cairo text is. Not bad.

[marianna]

Smart new member. :)

[Jeff]

Smart new member. :)

GREAT new member....

Let's hope we can persuade him to stay JUST inside the rules and not get banned...

A lot of freedom here by ME standards but it's not total.

And this guy is definitely worth keeping around.

[Manta]

What a stupid idea.:yes:I second that as well....:yes:

[STING]

STING,

You should've watched the news, you should've read all those decrees that came out from the Pakistani government, the FB groups with hundreds of thousands of Muslims cursing against it ... No one is "Saying" ... it's all there to see. People went crazy.

You ignored, Faith ignored, others too ... great. But people who ignored weren't as loud as people who didn't.

Yes they did. I didn't ignore. I mentioned how stupid the reactions were. I was even extremely disappointed by the reaction of students and how they attacked the cartoonist in Sweden.

Nevertheless, I equally am disappointed by the idea of entertaining some good for nothing morons with loads of time to draw cartoons and gauge the reaction of others. And I am reacting to this here, as I reacted against Muslims in other threads.

Are you telling us your only intention is help reactive Muslims be less reaction to this idea? And you feel this can be done by joining the event?

You don't think there are better ways? I personally have spoken to and convinced at least 10 people about changing their attitude towards the issue and not going with the flow of emotional reaction.

But sorry, I will not entertain "red necks", as my friend Diab puts it, just because I don't like how Muslims react.

This is like I will accept existence of Israel because I don't like who current Palestinian leaders are. It makes no sense. If you're disappointed by Muslim reaction to the issue, talk about that and take action against it.

Don't entertain the ones who are seeking attention, especially sense serious hypocrisy in their whole case exists. How come when Iran organized an even to research Holocaust, the same Western world were outraged?

[Manta]

Questioned by illustrating the Prophet PBUH in the worst ways possible? what sort of questioning is that? A very uncivilized one...

Islam has always been under the spotlight and has always been criticized and challenged by non-Muslims and we do no object to a mature and civilized questioning of our faith. Scholars in the west are used to that and are always ready to debate and answer back. They have kept the lines of communication open. Those depictions do not add any value to the on-going discussions nor are they an expression of freedom of speech. They are merely an expression of hatred with an intention to insult and has only resulted in bitterness from our end.

What I find most disturbing is that non-Muslims in our countries are received with open arms, hospitality and utmost respect. No where in our newspapers will you ever find us mock other religions whether by depictions or by words. We live and work amongst Christians, Sikhs and Hindus and never disrespect their faith in such manners. If we discuss, we discuss maturely and with facts.:cool:Very good point from a very wise woman...Big up 2 u...:cool::super:

[STING]

But we can't stop Draw Mohammed day. So UmK is asking: Why is it REALLY here? And what should our response be?

OK Mr. Spokesperson Jeff :p:

Well, I have talked about in detail in how our response should be here:

HEAD BUTT THREAD (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1494477&postcount=4)

More posts in same thread.

Now, ask your client how is entertaining red-necks and other childish brains by joining their "event" would be helpful to anybody?

[UmKhalid]

STING,

I don't get why you still think I'm "entertaining westerners"! Have I not cleared my views out yet? I am not against your approach, ignoring is good, should've started that way - but didn't. And this isn't the general approach, either.

I don't like pointing at things like this, but when we refer to them as "red necks" in that degrading way, what makes us think WE should be respected?

[aidsmonger911]

Enlightened Sting,

I drew Mohammed here, did you see him? He's on page 5 for reference.

Also, don't make the assumption that everyone participating was a "Redneck" as you so eloquently put it. I didn't partake but I support those that support freedom of speech.

Now, if you understood your own history you'd see that this is a relatively new phenomenon the idea of "not drawing Mohammed" for Sunni's, not Shiites. I suppose I don't need to educate an enlightened person like yourself on the difference between the two, oh and let's not forget Sufi's either. I'm sure you understand the historical and theological implications of the differences between the three?

Do you even know your own history? Do you even know the history of the Koran and its various iterations? Actually it's not in the Koran it was a Fatwa to not draw Mohammed, that emerged I want to say in the 1700's. Fatwa is the work of and interpretation of a man. Man is flawed and interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

However, you already knew all of this because you are an enlightened scholar of both Islam and History. So I'm just repeating what you already knew! I know when I'm in the presence of an intellectual genius so I humbly bow before you.

I look forward to your discounting any discussion other than your emotion driven response as that of "Rednecks". Do you even understand that term or are you just assuming that's slang for westerners?

Once again, I, redneck and all, humbly bow before your intellectual genius!:PBUH:

[freemind]

STING,

I don't like pointing at things like this, but when we refer to them as "red necks" in that degrading way, what makes us think WE should be respected?

this is where we define hypocrisy
ppl want respect frm every1 .. but they can insult any1 they want. Nice attitude

[STING]

STING,

I don't get why you still think I'm "entertaining westerners"! Have I not cleared my views out yet? I am not against your approach, ignoring is good, should've started that way - but didn't. And this isn't the general approach, either.

I don't like pointing at things like this, but when we refer to them as "red necks" in that degrading way, what makes us think WE should be respected?

UmK, how can you say we didn't? Check this forum. In the head-butt thread, almost all members agree with my post that condemned the Muslim reaction to cartoons.

How many people stopped using facebook among ES members? I am not saying you're entertaining, but by giving attention you actually are.

If you start the same thread in a forum where majority of Muslims angry and boycotting facebook, youtube and burning their keyboards, I will join you and help change their childish reaction, but ES members are not like that, right?

As for 'red neck' issue, I seriously don't know who are participating in drawing the Prophet. I never bothered even checking the website. It adds no value to me. And also, its a term introduced by Diab, so all credit to him. But I see no problem in calling some idiot who spends his time drawing someone disrespectfully for whatever reason a moron and a perhaps, if from American Wild, a red neck LoL.

Just as I won't respect angry and stupid Muslim reaction, I will not respect childish and unproductive non-Muslim actions.

[aidsmonger911]

this is where we define hypocrisy
ppl want respect frm every1 .. but they can insult any1 they want. Nice attitude

Hypocrisy does not know gender, religion, race, or culture.

It simply gets exuded like feces from individuals on a daily basis.

[STING]

Do you even know your own history? Do you even know the history of the Koran and its various iterations? Actually it's not in the Koran it was a Fatwa to not draw Mohammed, that emerged I want to say in the 1700's. Fatwa is the work of and interpretation of a man. Man is flawed and interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

...

Once again, I, redneck and all, humbly bow before your intellectual genius!:PBUH:

For the record, I have no problem with artists drawing the Prophet. Muslim artists did it in the past. But people who insultingly draw anybody respected and who added value to mankind, are seriously misguided.

And why on earth you consider yourself as a red neck? That is just degrading and I think you need Dr. Phil.

[Jeff]

UmKhalid:


Last sentence nails it!

I think a lot of STING's attitude is great.

And I think it's understandable to stop there.

But I think you are seeing deeper and going further.

[aidsmonger911]

By the way, the fact we can even have a dialogue is a good thing. Even if we agree to disagree the fact we can be civil says volumes about Oman.

Hugs and kisses.

[Manta]

Enlightened Sting,

I drew Mohammed here, did you see him? He's on page 5 for reference.

Also, don't make the assumption that everyone participating was a "Redneck" as you so eloquently put it. I didn't partake but I support those that support freedom of speech.

Now, if you understood your own history you'd see that this is a relatively new phenomenon the idea of "not drawing Mohammed" for Sunni's, not Shiites. I suppose I don't need to educate an enlightened person like yourself on the difference between the two, oh and let's not forget Sufi's either. I'm sure you understand the historical and theological implications of the differences between the three?

Do you even know your own history? Do you even know the history of the Koran and its various iterations? Actually it's not in the Koran it was a Fatwa to not draw Mohammed, that emerged I want to say in the 1700's. Fatwa is the work of and interpretation of a man. Man is flawed and interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

However, you already knew all of this because you are an enlightened scholar of both Islam and History. So I'm just repeating what you already knew! I know when I'm in the presence of an intellectual genius so I humbly bow before you.

I look forward to your discounting any discussion other than your emotion driven response as that of "Rednecks". Do you even understand that term or are you just assuming that's slang for westerners?

Once again, I, redneck and all, humbly bow before your intellectual genius!:PBUH::Sick::6::6:Masha'Allah u know the history of Qu'ran...Ic, and where it said in Qu'ran 2 draw pictures of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)-Girls we have empty bed @ Ibn sinna go and take rest...F-U!:6::6::6::6::6::6::6::6:

[STING]

^Dude WTF :os!?

[Manta]

^ Goooo and read more Qur'an....

[UmKhalid]

Haha, Manta, aidsmonger911 isn't saying the Qur'an says "Go draw the prophet", he's saying: "The Qur'an never said Don't."

[aidsmonger911]

Manta might be a lost cause... I know I am! :-D

We're all in this together regardless of our race, creed, gender, religion or what not.

Again, what's important and most remarkable is that we can even have this discussion in a sane, logical manner. It's not just emotion filled rants :).

[freemind]

Again, what's important and most remarkable is that we can even have this discussion in a sane, logical manner. It's not just emotion filled rants :).

ahhhhh talks of peace at last .. I am impressed :)
when do we get started :D

[Manta]

Haha, Manta, aidsmonger911 isn't saying the Qur'an says "Go draw the prophet", he's saying: "The Qur'an never said Don't.":cool:Alright.....and what about if u dont get infom from Qur'an-where u can refer?!:mmhmm::mmhmm::think:

[Manta]

Manta might be a lost cause... I know I am! :-D

We're all in this together regardless of our race, creed, gender, religion or what not.

Again, what's important and most remarkable is that we can even have this discussion in a sane, logical manner. It's not just emotion filled rants :).:cool::cool::cool:

[Jeff]

:cool:Very good point from a very wise woman...Big up 2 u...:cool::super:

Hmmm, I dunno. You think?

I mean I love and respect Bimzoori.

But it's exactly this kind of thing I think UmK is taking a second look at:

"They are all against us! But we treat them so wonderful!"

I think we get treated pretty well in Oman. But wow, not always in other places.

And in many ways, you guys get treated SUPER well in the West.

We aren't all against you, hardly. But most of us do insist that religion not be off limits to mockery, that's our long tradition and belief.

Muslims feel under attack. Westerners also feel under attack.

The thing to do is for both to listen and try to understand.

[Jeff]

Manta might be a lost cause... I know I am! :-D

We're all in this together regardless of our race, creed, gender, religion or what not.

Again, what's important and most remarkable is that we can even have this discussion in a sane, logical manner. It's not just emotion filled rants :).

Ads Manager 91:

Not a bad philosophy!

Sabla is a surprising place with a lot of interesting people.

[Manta]

Hmmm, I dunno. You think?

:DWhatever is in my view-remains my view..:D:D:D:cool:

[El Rey]

Umk: What about if some group in ES decided to dedicate a day for your let's say mother and draw her in a shameful nude sexual positions with other men? Would you participate with them? Would you draw her as well assuming that some members drew her in a good figure and decent way?! Please be honest and don't ignore my question as you did for the first one cos your answer will tell us alot about how you think.


Enlightened Sting,

I drew Mohammed here, did you see him? He's on page 5 for reference.

Also, don't make the assumption that everyone participating was a "Redneck" as you so eloquently put it. I didn't partake but I support those that support freedom of speech.

Now, if you understood your own history you'd see that this is a relatively new phenomenon the idea of "not drawing Mohammed" for Sunni's, not Shiites. I suppose I don't need to educate an enlightened person like yourself on the difference between the two, oh and let's not forget Sufi's either. I'm sure you understand the historical and theological implications of the differences between the three?

Do you even know your own history? Do you even know the history of the Koran and its various iterations? Actually it's not in the Koran it was a Fatwa to not draw Mohammed, that emerged I want to say in the 1700's. Fatwa is the work of and interpretation of a man. Man is flawed and interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

However, you already knew all of this because you are an enlightened scholar of both Islam and History. So I'm just repeating what you already knew! I know when I'm in the presence of an intellectual genius so I humbly bow before you.

I look forward to your discounting any discussion other than your emotion driven response as that of "Rednecks". Do you even understand that term or are you just assuming that's slang for westerners?

Once again, I, redneck and all, humbly bow before your intellectual genius!:PBUH:

How about you tell us about the history and Islamic teachings?! What do you know about drawings in Islam? Or it's a sect controversy now?

Here, it's not about the drawings but about the insulting drawings. If a christian friend came to me and said look El Rey here I drew your prophet. I would look at the drawings and may smile if there is nothing insulting in it cos I respect that drawings prophets and God is ok in his religion so I will understand. But when someone comes to me and says look here I drew Mohammed in an insulting way then of course I'll be upset and there would be a reaction. You don't tell someone 'hey I just cursed your mother, why did you punch me?!' You don't sit limits for others reactions. You crossed someone's line so expect your line to be crossed and that line you don't draw it yourself and here we're taalking about consequences of actions.

About being civil you're repeating in your posts, let me show you some of the Omani law regarding freedom of speech:

Article 29 [Expression]

Freedom of opinion and expression, whether spoken, written or in other forms, is guaranteed within the limits of the Law.

Article 31 [Press]

Freedom of the press, printing and publication is guaranteed in accordance with the conditions and circumstances defined by the Law. It is prohibited to print or publish material that leads to public discord, violates the security of the State or abuses aperson's dignity and his rights.[/

This is the civil way you treat people with RESPECT. We're brough t and raised to respect others beliefs. It's our religion teachings, parents and if not then forced by the law. Respect is something crucial. That's why when we are insulted we react against it accordingly. I assume weserners curse their parents, prophet, God and whoever they want in a daily basis. This is their culture now supported by the idea fof the freedom of speech. This is a life of moral chaos which is not a trait of human beings but hmm apes maybe?! Thst's why this evolution theory is supported in there at its most maybe it's whitnessed in the daily life routine.

We don't care if they don't like the prophet PBUH. You don't like him it's up to you, you hate him then good for you you curse him it's your opinion but you don't go deform him as an individual to others and you don't tell others that he's a terrorist and he's a and a ... cos first you don't know him. Second there are people who might get offended and THEN if you insist on insulting publically, then you must accept every kind of reaction coming out of it. You don't insult and expect a smile and here again you don't set the boundaries, once you crossed a line expect your line to be crossed.

It's really funny and ironic how some of those pro-freedom of speech make the situation look lke. It's like the way arround, those people are innocent they just expressed their views, you don't like them then ignore them till it becomes a habit. Some Christians insult our prophet and all muslims say Jesus peace be upon him. Some jews do the same and all muslims say Moses peace be upon him. All muslims is asking for is just respect and for those who say that they can do whatever they want in their cuntry, it's not like this anymore, muslims are natives in every country n the world be it born their or took the nationality later on so no country is someone's country anymore.

And AIDSMONGER is not a civilized nick by the way.

[delta619]

I don't know about your understanding of Muslims and Islam, but if any Muslim attacks Jesus PBUH, he cannot be called a Muslim. Any prophet is holy and Muslims believe in them and respect them.

Please do share stories of Muslim artists, politicians and on insulting or attacking Jesus or anything other religious character. It would be interesting.

oh lets not play naive mate :)!!!

[freemind]

Umk: What about if some group in ES decided to dedicate a day for your let's say mother and draw her in a shameful nude sexual positions with other men? Would you participate with them? Would you draw her as well assuming that some members drew her in a good figure and decent way?! Please be honest and don't ignore my question as you did for the first one cos your answer will tell us alot about how you think.

El Rey, ur comparison is really strange.
1. Umk's mother is not a public figure. El Rey, If any1 draws ur mother in a shameful nude sexual positions, and u go n bash up that guy, yes justified. But with public figures, there are followers and there are protesters. No public figure can tell, all my followers come in public, and no protesters are allowed to be public.
2. Its 'Draw Prophet Mohammed Day' and not 'Draw Prophet Mohammed as a Terrorist Day'. That is the point Umk has been trying to explain from the start of the thread. The way u have put in ur example, it is a -ve day. The way the actual 'Draw Prophet Mohammed Day' is, depends on the perception of the person participating.



And AIDSMONGER is not a civilized nick by the way.AIDSMONGER, some ppl find ur nick uncivilized, beware u mite be headbutted any moment :rolleyes:

[El Rey]

Most muslims consider prophet Muhammed PBUH more revere than their parents so go figure. It's not about public or private figures. once you mock someone publically it's not private anymore. Parents have their group of family that care for them and just goes the same with prophets but in a larger scale. And my example was about a drawing day of someone's parent in no matter how and our prophet PBUH is a parent as well.


AIDSMONGER, some ppl find ur nick uncivilized, beware u mite be headbutted any moment


El Rey, ur comparison is really strange.

I guess you're a muslim too. So you're going to headbutt me for giving a strane post? Stop being naiive.


El Rey, If any1 draws ur mother in a shameful nude sexual positions, and u go n bash up that guy, yes justified.

Double standards.

[freemind]

Most muslims consider prophet Muhammed PBUH more revere than their parents so go figure. It's not about public or private figures. once you mock someone publically it's not private anymore. Parents have their group of family that care for them and just goes the same with prophets but in a larger scale. And my example was about a drawing day of someone's parent in no matter how and our prophet PBUH is a parent as well.

Yes I agree with u El Rey, infact not most, all muslims consider Prophet Muhammed PBUH above their parents.
But you are not getting my point. Consider this, George Bush has 2 daughers, lets say he had a son also. Now bush has his followers and a lot of protestors. Millions of ppl draw cartoons of him everyday. so wt u xpect his son/daughters to do. Go n bash up every person who makes such cartoons. Thats illogical.
What I am tryin to xplain here is once a person becomes a public figure, things are not same as u have compared with some1's parent.



I guess you're a muslim too. So you're going to headbutt me for giving a strane post? Stop being naiive.

I wudnt, datz my point, I am against this stupidity.
You want me to ? :angel:

[Jeff]

El Rey:

Look, it's easy to understand the point about mockery.

Nobody wants the figures they revere mocked.

But there are so many problems with this standard.

If you can't mock any figure that someone reveres, then who can you mock? Almost anyone you would want to mock has people who revere and admire them.

And then there is the whole question of what is mockery?

You are a pretty tolerant person. If someone said "I named this teddy bear 'Alex' after one friend and I name this one 'Mohammed' after another one", you would probably at most roll your eyes and say, "Clueless American!"

But in the Sudan, it brought tens of thousands into the streets howling for blood!

If you are in a discussion with somebody about religion and you say, "I think atheists are nutcases" and he says, "Well, I think your prophet was delusional!", whatcha gonna do? Kill him?

Some people would say that's a normal conversation between people who disagree. And Mohammed is a controversial figure. Just as atheism is controversial.

You draw the line one place. Another will draw the line another place....

I think there is no solution but simply to let people talk! And if somebody's feelings get hurt, they are responsible for controlling them.

[aidsmonger911]

Most muslims consider prophet Muhammed PBUH more revere than their parents so go figure. It's not about public or private figures. once you mock someone publically it's not private anymore. Parents have their group of family that care for them and just goes the same with prophets but in a larger scale. And my example was about a drawing day of someone's parent in no matter how and our prophet PBUH is a parent as well.





I guess you're a muslim too. So you're going to headbutt me for giving a strane post? Stop being naiive.



Double standards.



Oh El RAY,

You so crazy, you don't understand once you've become a public figure that the standard conventions don't apply. Also your rule 34 or whatever it is only applies to those under the jurisdiction of Omani law, so file a writ of merit with the international courts and let me know how that goes. I suppose I don't need to teach you about international law now too do I?

So my question is, what don't you get? Would you like me to dig up citation on the actual history of the ban on drawing the prophet on the Sunni side? I can do that if you like. However, the point is you or anyone other group doesn't speak on behalf of all Muslims. You can be personally offended but that doesn't give you the write to impose your own will, feeling or emotions on the rest of the group. We in the redneck circles call dat dere cultural imperialism, and that is not something that is accepted.

Without interjecting emotions can you tell me explicitly where it says "Do not draw images of the prophet" - not the idolater commentary, which is standard but the origins of the ban? Because there are some brilliant pieces of cultural history which are drawings of the prophet, his story and the followers. It's both art and the shared history of man.

Dat dere is da troof. Ohes and if you wants me to provide a wonderful scholarly article on the differences in Koran's I can do that too. It might actually open your eyes a bit to the awesome and vibrant nature of Islam. It really behaves like an ocean ebbing and flowing, not a piece of stone.

HugsNKisses

[Jeff]

Because there are some brilliant pieces of cultural history which are drawings of the prophet, his story and the followers. It's both art and the shared history of man.



I really liked that point because it raises a different perspective.

Mohammed belongs to Muslims as a prophet.

But he belongs to the rest of us too...as a part of our history and culture...the history and culture of mankind.

We have stuff to say about him too...just as we have stuff to say about the Buddha or Napoleon.

Some of what we have to say may be pleasing and complimentary to Muslims.

But some of it will be very distressing.

The greatest poet of post-classical Europe is Dante. And what Dante has to say about Mohammed in the Inferno is FAR more distressing to Muslims that ANYTHING coming out today, even the pig drawing.

But nobody is proposing giving up the Divine Comedy. That's like giving up Shakespeare or Michelangelo.

[El Rey]

Yes I agree with u El Rey, infact not most, all muslims consider Prophet Muhammed PBUH above their parents.
But you are not getting my point. Consider this, George Bush has 2 daughers, lets say he had a son also. Now bush has his followers and a lot of protestors. Millions of ppl draw cartoons of him everyday. so wt u xpect his son/daughters to do. Go n bash up every person who makes such cartoons. Thats illogical.
What I am tryin to xplain here is once a person becomes a public figure, things are not same as u have compared with some1's parent.



Lol your comparison with bush is really funny. Apart from his genocides against humanity,he's mocked by his OWN people and that's not strange for the westerners since they mock their God as well. Here we're talking about someone who did nothing to them. Who's dead and loved by millions around the world.


I wudnt, datz my point, I am against this stupidity.
You want me to ?

Oh so it's a choice now. How about if I said yes I would like you to do it?!




El Rey:

Look, it's easy to understand the point about mockery.

Nobody wants the figures they revere mocked.

But there are so many problems with this standard.

If you can't mock any figure that someone reveres, then who can you mock? Almost anyone you would want to mock has people who revere and admire them.

And then there is the whole question of what is mockery?

You are a pretty tolerant person. If someone said "I named this teddy bear 'Alex' after one friend and I name this one 'Mohammed' after another one", you would probably at most roll your eyes and say, "Clueless American!"

But in the Sudan, it brought tens of thousands into the streets howling for blood!

If you are in a discussion with somebody about religion and you say, "I think atheists are nutcases" and he says, "Well, I think your prophet was delusional!", whatcha gonna do? Kill him?

Some people would say that's a normal conversation between people who disagree. And Mohammed is a controversial figure. Just as atheism is controversial.

You draw the line one place. Another will draw the line another place....

I think there is no solution but simply to let people talk! And if somebody's feelings get hurt, they are responsible for controlling them.

So people must mock each other to deliver their message?!


Oh El RAY,

You so crazy, you don't understand once you've become a public figure that the standard conventions don't apply. Also your rule 34 or whatever it is only applies to those under the jurisdiction of Omani law, so file a writ of merit with the international courts and let me know how that goes. I suppose I don't need to teach you about international law now too do I?

So my question is, what don't you get? Would you like me to dig up citation on the actual history of the ban on drawing the prophet on the Sunni side? I can do that if you like. However, the point is you or anyone other group doesn't speak on behalf of all Muslims. You can be personally offended but that doesn't give you the write to impose your own will, feeling or emotions on the rest of the group. We in the redneck circles call dat dere cultural imperialism, and that is not something that is accepted.

Without interjecting emotions can you tell me explicitly where it says "Do not draw images of the prophet" - not the idolater commentary, which is standard but the origins of the ban? Because there are some brilliant pieces of cultural history which are drawings of the prophet, his story and the followers. It's both art and the shared history of man.

Dat dere is da troof. Ohes and if you wants me to provide a wonderful scholarly article on the differences in Koran's I can do that too. It might actually open your eyes a bit to the awesome and vibrant nature of Islam. It really behaves like an ocean ebbing and flowing, not a piece of stone.

HugsNKisses

You just keep saying if you want me to provide you but you actually do nothing lol. Am waiting for you to enlighten us with your knowledge about the history of Islam regarding the drawing our prophet PBUH and your international law speech, please am waiting. But before teaching us all of these things how about you start with pronouncing my nickname properly?!

On a side note, did you read my following post or you just liked to ignore it and repeat your same previous post about 'do you want me to tell you about .. etc'


Here, it's not about the drawings but about the insulting drawings. If a christian friend came to me and said look El Rey here I drew your prophet. I would look at the drawings and may smile if there is nothing insulting in it cos I respect that drawings prophets and God is ok in his religion so I will understand. But when someone comes to me and says look here I drew Mohammed in an insulting way then of course I'll be upset and there would be a reaction. You don't tell someone 'hey I just cursed your mother, why did you punch me?!' You don't sit limits for others reactions. You crossed someone's line so expect your line to be crossed and that line you don't draw it yourself and here we're taalking about consequences of actions.

:rolleyes:

[aidsmonger911]

Lol your comparison with bush is really funny. Apart from his genocides against humanity,he's mocked by his OWN people and that's not strange for the westerners since they mock their God as well. Here we're talking about someone who did nothing to them. Who's dead and loved by millions around the world.



Oh so it's a choice now. How about if I said yes I would like you to do it?!





So people must mock each other to deliver their message?!



You just keep saying if you want me to provide you and provide you but you actually do nothing lol. Am waiting for you to enlighten us with your knowledge about the history of Islam regarding the drawing our prophet PBUH and your international law speech, please am waiting. But before teaching us all of these things how about you start with pronouncing my nickname properly?!

On a side note, did you read my following post or you jut liked to ignore it and repeat your same previous post about 'do you want me to tell you about .. etc'


:rolleyes:

As a gentleman in the west would say, ladies first. So, let's see what you have evidence wise. Or...we can play show me yours and I'll show you mine. ;)

[El Rey]

Mohammed belongs to Muslims as a prophet.

But he belongs to the rest of us too...as a part of our history and culture...the history and culture of mankind.

We have stuff to say about him too...just as we have stuff to say about the Buddha or Napoleon.

Saying something about someone be it positive or negative is NOT like insulting someone to provoke others. I think you know the difference very well Jeff.

Again, I don't need to repeat myself manytimes. My point is when you cross someone's line you expect your line to be crossed and you don't draw this line by yourself. So stop the double standards about it's Ok to insult but it's not ok to react accordingly. This is just hypocricy.

[El Rey]

As a gentleman in the west would say, ladies first. So, let's see what you have evidence wise. Or...we can play show me yours and I'll show you mine. ;)

Oh now I see you have nothing but all talk lol. What about the 'I can tell you about Islam history, intentational law and interpretations of Koran and the fatwas you promised to bring up?! I can't even count them. It's you who want to teach us about our religion, right?! ;)

Ok how about you tell us about how you love to talk and spread AIDS as a start Mr. AIDSMONGER :XD:

[Russo_turisto]

El Rey, talking about that Muslims respect Jesus, well, from a Christian point of view, Islamic notion of Jesus, such as mentioned in the Maryam sura, CAN be quite offensive.

But since most Christians aren't aware of it, there's no reason for them to go ballistic.

[Jeff]

Saying something about someone be it positive or negative is NOT like insulting someone to provoke others. I think you know the difference very well Jeff.

Again, I don't need to repeat myself manytimes. My point is when you cross someone's line you expect your line to be crossed and you don't draw this line by yourself. So stop the double standards about it's Ok to insult but it's not ok to react accordingly. This is just hypocricy.

No, no, Reyo. Our line on public speech is about public and historical figures is:

Anything about anyone anytime.

There is no hypocrisy there.

God is even higher than Mohammed. But we have a well established tradition of mocking God... It's all over the place.

If someone crosses my "lines" about whatever and I attack them, I go to jail. No one will support me.

[El Rey]

No, no, Reyo. Our line on public speech is about public and historical figures is:

Anything about anyone anytime.

There is no hypocrisy there.

God is even higher than Mohammed. But we have a well established tradition of mocking God... It's all over the place.

If someone crosses my "lines" about whatever and I attack them, I go to jail. No one will support me.

If you accepted to mock your God don't expect others to be like you. Others have different definition of respect ;)

And by the way jeff, am not saying that the reaction should be justified by law. But by human standards and nature IT"s predicted and expected.

[aidsmonger911]

I has scholarship.

Ali, Wijdan (23–28 August), M. Kiel, N. Landman, and H. Theunissen, ed., "From the Literal to the Spiritual: The Development of Prophet Muhammad's Portrayal from 13th Century Ilkhanid Miniatures to 17th Century Ottoman Art" (PDF), Proceedings of the 11th International Congress of Turkish Art (The Netherlands: Utrecht) 7 (1–24): 7

A simple Google search should dig that up for you. That's the full citation.

Now, present your goods please so I can haz cheeburger.

[El Rey]

El Rey, talking about that Muslims respect Jesus, well, from a Christian point of view, Islamic notion of Jesus, such as mentioned in the Maryam sura, CAN be quite offensive.

But since most Christians aren't aware of it, there's no reason for them to go ballistic.

It's the way ideas and opinions are expressed Russo. Muslims don't go saying that Jesus is **** or draw him in a disrespectful way. They just say what they're taught in their religion about Jesus as a prophet. It's just the same way like Christians can say muhammed is an ordinary man, he's not a prophet at all and quran is a made up book. We can accept that. To them their religion and to us ours as Allah says. It's just the way of expressing these ideas and the intention behinde it.

[El Rey]

I has scholarship.

Ali, Wijdan (23–28 August), M. Kiel, N. Landman, and H. Theunissen, ed., "From the Literal to the Spiritual: The Development of Prophet Muhammad's Portrayal from 13th Century Ilkhanid Miniatures to 17th Century Ottoman Art" (PDF), Proceedings of the 11th International Congress of Turkish Art (The Netherlands: Utrecht) 7 (1–24): 7

A simple Google search should dig that up for you. That's the full citation.

Now, present your goods please so I can haz cheeburger.

LOL and am El Rey. Nice to meet you :hyper:

[Jeff]

If you accepted to mock your God don't expect others to be like you. Others have different definition of respect ;)

And by the way jeff, am not saying that the reaction should be justified by law. But by human standards and nature IT"s predicted and expected.

Well, what I am saying is that though that may be true, we and others have learned to control ourselves. In fact, when what we hold dear is mocked, we hold our anger.

You can do it too! You aren't kids. :)

But in the end, what I think is this is a transition period.

I don't worry too much about all the threats and demonstrations and things. Or the cartoons and mockery.

In the end, we will learn to piss each other off and live with it... :)

[El Rey]

Well, what I am saying is that though that may be true, we and others have learned to control ourselves. In fact, when what we hold dear is mocked, we hold our anger.

You can do it too! You aren't kids. :)

But in the end, what I think is this is a transition period.

I don't worry too much about all the threats and demonstrations and things. Or the cartoons and mockery.

In the end, we will learn to piss each other off and live with it... :)

Again, don't expect others to be like you. You see Jesus ( Your God ) being mocked in a daily basis in movies, internet, journals, magazines et al and you prefered to be silent about it. Some muslims was silent about the Prophet cartoons as well, it's their choice BUT others chose not to be. They were provoked, they had a reaction. That's all am saying. You can't force others to hide their anger and you don't have the right to control their anger. Every action has a reaction.

[Russo_turisto]

El Rey, ur comparison is really strange.
1. Umk's mother is not a public figure. El Rey, If any1 draws ur mother in a shameful nude sexual positions, and u go n bash up that guy, yes justified. But with public figures, there are followers and there are protesters. No public figure can tell, all my followers come in public, and no protesters are allowed to be public.
2. Its 'Draw Prophet Mohammed Day' and not '
Draw Prophet Mohammed as a Terrorist Day'. That is the point Umk has been trying to explain from the start of the thread. The way u have put in ur example, it is a -ve day. The way the actual 'Draw Prophet Mohammed Day' is, depends on the perception of the person participating.


AIDSMONGER, some ppl find ur nick uncivilized, beware u mite be headbutted any moment :rolleyes:

THIS. I think the whole idea of the day is to show to the infidels Westerners that actually from a religious non-Wahhabi point of view it's perfectly ok to draw Mohammad...
one of the most world-renowned pictures of the prophet of Islam:

*image removed*

where is it stored? France? Scotland? I think it should remain there :yes: just in case Wahhabis don't like it...

[aidsmonger911]

Woah Woah Woah... El Ray, don't assume I'm Christian, because you'd be wrong. I'm not Christian, I'm a member of the Rastafarian reformed church of the flying spaghetti monster.

Check it out: http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i34137

[aidsmonger911]

THIS. I think the whole idea of the day is to show to the infidels Westerners that actually from a religious non-Wahhabi point of view it's perfectly ok to draw Mohammad...
one of the most world-renowned picture of the prophet of Islam:

*image removed*

where is it stored? France? Scotland? I think it should remain there :yes: just in case Wahhabis don't like it...

That is a beautiful piece of art and history.

[El Rey]

Woah Woah Woah... El Ray, don't assume I'm Christian, because you'd be wrong. I'm not Christian, I'm a member of the Rastafarian reformed church of the flying spaghetti monster.

Check it out: http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i34137

What's next, you show us your photo in facebook? :XD: . I can show you who you are I can teach you something about yourself, I can even bring you deads from underground but I was just kedding

Who's saying that :XD:

[Jeff]

It's the way ideas and opinions are expressed Russo. Muslims don't go saying that Jesus is **** or draw him in a disrespectful way. They just say what they're taught in their religion about Jesus as a prophet. It's just the same way like Christians can say muhammed is an ordinary man, he's not a prophet at all and quran is a made up book. We can accept that. To them their religion and to us ours as Allah says. It's just the way of expressing these ideas and the intention behinde it.

Okay, but what if you think Mohammed (or Jesus or all prophets or all religious leaders) was an evil man and a baneful influence on humanity.

You get to say so?

In a forceful way?

If you get to say that Mohammed was a great and good man, why shouldn't someone else get to say, "No, I think he was a liar and murderer"?

Then the rest of us can watch the dispute and decide what we agree with and what we don't.

That's the point of it all.

Like arguing about Bush.

You get to say he was a genocidal maniac and I get to say he was a heroic president.

Both of us think the other's opinion is bonkers! :D But we can be friends and argue and others can read and judge. :)

And if you lose you temper and draw me and my family in nude poses, why I will:


Roll my eyes at you and GIGGLE!

So take THAT, you Mussulman, you! :D

[El Rey]

You don't get it Jeff do you. Actually Jack said lots of bad stuff about our prophet, we still discussed together and he was to get my vote as a best member. Thalia brought a subject about our prophet PBUH giving orders to kill an old jewish man and we discussed it together with facts and in a civil way. With this I have no objection but when I just come to you and say look Jeff I drew your God or mother or anyone you adore and am showing it to you so show me what you're going to do about it. This is something else and it's a provoking action and I will expect you to react accordingly in a way I may not like it. But who am fooling you guys got used to it and want us to be the same.

As you said we have different opnions. You support bush for killing innocent Iraqi people and already homeless Afghanis, you actually adore him. So how can we agree with such a topic.

[aidsmonger911]

Cultural artistic expression reflects philosophical evolution, interest in growth, perspective, observation, interpretation. If you don't have art, you are culturally dead, which in itself is worse than death.

Thus, the impact of banning art.

[Russo_turisto]

It's the way ideas and opinions are expressed Russo. Muslims don't go saying that Jesus is **** or draw him in a disrespectful way. They just say what they're taught in their religion about Jesus as a prophet. It's just the same way like Christians can say muhammed is an ordinary man, he's not a prophet at all and quran is a made up book. We can accept that. To them their religion and to us ours as Allah says. It's just the way of expressing these ideas and the intention behinde it.

that Jesus is what? :os (just wondering which of the swear words Jesus could have been, if he hadn't been one of the holiest people ever...)

I don't think Christians may say anything explicitly offensive from an Islamic {Quranic} or umm Ummah-implied point of view.. not in an Islamic country like KSA or something. They'll just be freggin torn apart for that. And some even consider calling the Qur'an a forgery a heretic, deadly offence worth the death penalty....

[Russo_turisto]

Cultural artistic expression reflects philosophical evolution, interest in growth, perspective, observation, interpretation. If you don't have art, you are culturally dead, which in itself is worse than death.

Thus, the impact of banning art.

Check this thread, you might find it interesting...
http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70714&highlight=arts+islam

[El Rey]

that Jesus is what? :os (just wondering which of the swear words Jesus could have been, if he hadn't been one of the holiest people ever...)

I don't think Christians may say anything explicitly offensive from an Islamic {Quranic} or umm Ummah-implied point of view.. not in an Islamic country like KSA or something. They'll just be freggin torn apart for that. And some even consider calling the Qur'an a forgery a heretic, deadly offence worth the death penalty....

I actually wrote the stars myself. Lol you thought I would write an insult about our prophet Isa PBUH? :D . I meant words that christians won't like to hear. And tell me who took the death penalty for saying quran is frogery? I mean a non muslim.

[Jeff]

You don't get it Jeff do you. Actually Jack said lots of bad stuff about our prophet, we still discussed together and he was to get my vote as a best member. Thalia brought a subject about our prophet PBUH giving orders to kill an old jewish man and we discussed it together with facts and in a civil way. With this I have no objection but when I just come to you and say look Jeff I drew your God or mother or anyone you adore and am showing it to you so show me what you're going to do about it. This is something else and it's a provoking action and I will expect you to react accordingly in a way I may not like it. But who am fooling you guys got used to it and want us to be the same.

As you said we have different opnions. You support bush for killing innocent Iraqi people and already homeless Afghanis, you actually adore him. So how can we agree with such a topic.

Don't expect you to be like us! No!

I dislike mockery of religious figures! And I dislike personal insults.

I think you and I are the same on this as far as personal behavior is concerned.

What I hope for is for you to tolerate our rules in our societies.

The rules don't say: Mockery is always good: please mock!

The rules say: If you feel insulted by someone's expression of their ideas, control yourself. And no special exceptions for Mohammed or anyone else.

[El Rey]

Don't expect you to be like us! No!

I dislike mockery of religious figures! And I dislike personal insults.

I think you and I are the same on this as far as personal behavior is concerned.

What I hope for is for you to tolerate our rules in our societies.

The rules don't say: Mockery is always good: please mock!

The rules say: If you feel insulted by someone's expression of their ideas, control yourself. And no special exceptions for Mohammed or anyone else.

It's the exact thing am saying. I don't say kill everyone who insults. Am just saying when you cross someone's line there would be a reaction. I said in another thread, if the cartoonist was murdered for what he did then why would we cry for him? Didn't he bring it to himself? This applies to everyone not only him. If a muslim insulted Jesus or any other religion and got murdered I won't feel sorry for him cos he brought it to himself. I won't defend his action and I don't say you people are crazy nuts for killing him, he was just expressing his opinion. But I would say that serves him right.

[Russo_turisto]

I actually wrote the stars myself. Lol you thought I would write an insult about our prophet Isa PBUH? :D . I meant words that christians won't like to hear. And tell me who took the death penalty for saying quran is frogery? I mean a non muslim.

ah... a non-Muslim? well I have to dig for that :D

but... how is a Muslim different?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/world/iran-frees-professor-set-to-die-for-speech.html


TEHRAN, July 31— A university professor twice condemned to death for blasphemy walked out of prison on Saturday night, free after a two-year battle with hard-line judges and mass student demonstrations in his favor.

Hashem Aghajari emerged from Evin prison in northern Tehran to a warm welcome by more than two dozen relatives and friends, said his daughter, Maryam Aghajari.

Ms. Aghajari said her father had been released on bail of $122,500. The bond had to be posted because her father had not served his full three-year sentence. He has spent more than two years behind bars.

A professor at Teachers Training University in Tehran, Mr. Aghajari was prosecuted for a speech in June 2002 in which he urged people to question religious teachings, saying the words of clerics should not be considered sacred simply because they were part of history. He said people should not slavishly follow hard-line interpretations of Islam.

[Jeff]

It's the exact thing am saying. I don't say kill everyone who insults. Am just saying when you cross someone's line there would be a reaction. I said in another thread, if the cartoonist was murdered for what he did then why would we cry for him? Didn't he bring it to himself? This applies to everyone not only him. If a muslim insulted Jesus or any other religion and got murdered I won't feel sorry for him cos he brought it to himself. I won't defend his action and I don't say you people are crazy nuts for killing him, he was just expressing his opinion. But I would say that serves him right.

That is where we disagree I think.

When Lars ****ole draws a picture of Mohammed as a pig or dog or whatever, I think:

What a jerk. What a loser. Second rate artist. Third rate. Attention seeking fraud.

But if some REACTS to that by killing him, I want that person caught and hung until he is dead.

And the same applies to people who mock my religion. If somebody killed STING for mocking what I hold dear, I want that person caught and punished.

I won't make excuses for them, saying they were provoked.

[El Rey]

ah... a non-Muslim? well I have to dig for that :D

but... how is a Muslim different?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/world/iran-frees-professor-set-to-die-for-speech.html

You need to dig so deep to get it cos your current link doesn't answer my previous question ;)


That is where we disagree I think.

When Lars ****ole draws a picture of Mohammed as a pig or dog or whatever, I think:

What a jerk. What a loser. Second rate artist. Third rate. Attention seeking fraud.

But if some REACTS to that by killing him, I want that person caught and hung until he is dead.

And the same applies to people who mock my religion. If somebody killed STING for mocking what I hold dear, I want that person caught and punished.

I won't make excuses for them, saying they were provoked.

You seem to love STING so much that you bring him as an example in all related to religion insults posts :p

Well about the other point, I think we need to stop here. I got your opinion and you got mine and I don't need to explain further. Chao to this thread.

[aidsmonger911]

Oh El Ray,

You so crazy.

http://img.moronail.net/img/0/5/1805.jpg

Your educated, well informed stance is valued immensely!

Please, enlighten us and especially me further as I am awed by your intellectual genius.

I am not worthy of even speaking to or with you...

[aidsmonger911]

Also...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Your_argument_is_invalid.jpg

[freemind]

Lol your comparison with bush is really funny. Apart from his genocides against humanity,he's mocked by his OWN people and that's not strange for the westerners since they mock their God as well. Here we're talking about someone who did nothing to them. Who's dead and loved by millions around the world.

Ohh Rey, come on, are u acting so dum or u really are ?
By giving the above example, i dont mean to portray a characteristic of Bush. The world knows what he has done.
Exactly hw u say my comparison with Bush is funny, my point was ur comparison of Prophet Mohammed with some1's parent was stupid.
Moreoever the way u put it so negatively about drawing nude pictures, it was more of a provoking post rather than having a legitimate debate.

[El Rey]

Ohh Rey, come on, are u acting so dum or u really are ?
By giving the above example, i dont mean to portray a characteristic of Bush. The world knows what he has done.
Exactly hw u say my comparison with Bush is funny, my point was ur comparison of Prophet Mohammed with some1's parent was stupid.
Moreoever the way u put it so negatively about drawing nude pictures, it was more of a provoking post rather than having a legitimate debate.

Good you know that there is something provoking and something called legitimate debate. You got the lesson. Well done ;)

Oh again why am I here. Ok this is the last post of mine. I gave this thread more than it actually deserves :cool:

[aidsmonger911]

El Ray,

I will cherish this time always....

You had me at genocides.

[freemind]

Again, don't expect others to be like you. You see Jesus ( Your God ) being mocked in a daily basis in movies, internet, journals, magazines et al and you prefered to be silent about it. Some muslims was silent about the Prophet cartoons as well, it's their choice BUT others chose not to be. They were provoked, they had a reaction. That's all am saying. You can't force others to hide their anger and you don't have the right to control their anger. Every action has a reaction.

But Rey, thats not what Prophet Mohammed PBUH has taught us. He has taught us peace and to control our anger.


BEWARE OF ANGER

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The best of you are those who are slow to anger and swift to cool down...Beware of anger, for it is a live coal on the heart of the descendants of Adam." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1331


THE RIGHTEOUS CONTROL THEIR ANGER

"(The righteous) are those who spend generously (in the way of God), whether they are in prosperity or in adversity, who control their anger and forgive other people, for God loves those who do good." - The Holy Quran, 3:134





So you saying that if other ppl do wrong, leave the teachings aside, and screw them first ?

[Russo_turisto]

Oh El Ray,

You so crazy.

http://img.moronail.net/img/0/5/1805.jpg

Your educated, well informed stance is valued immensely!

Please, enlighten us and especially me further as I am awed by your intellectual genius.

I am not worthy of even speaking to or with you...

:hyper::hyper::hyper::hyper::hyper: LOOOOOOOL

[aidsmonger911]

I prefer the shark myself :-D

[freemind]

I prefer the shark myself :-D

LOL ... me agrees with dat ;)

[freemind]

Good you know that there is something provoking and something called legitimate debate. You got the lesson. Well done ;)

Oh again why am I here. Ok this is the last post of mine. I gave this thread more than it actually deserves :cool:

ahhhhhhhh there's ur problem. Jumping to conclusion without much thinking.
K, for u specially, lets take it again from the top

I never said the depictions drawn of Prophet Muhammed PBUH in the west are not provoking or what they are doing is not wrong. But u need to think and understand, why individuals do this. Either they need attention, or they are provoking u, so that there is a reaction, which can be displayed to the world in the way they prefer. And Rey, u r giving them that !
Second thing, Imagine if Prophet Muhammed PBUH was there amongst us today. What do u think he would have said ? "Ohhh Rey, that son of Adam has insulted me ! Go and kill him !" No rite ?
Prophet Muhammed was a messenger of Peace, was a messenger of Islam. Please do not spread hatred in his name by going against his path. I understand people in the West doing it, they dont believe in him. Why are you going against his teachings ?

[UmKhalid]

Ali, Wijdan (23–28 August), M. Kiel, N. Landman, and H. Theunissen, ed., "From the Literal to the Spiritual: The Development of Prophet Muhammad's Portrayal from 13th Century Ilkhanid Miniatures to 17th Century Ottoman Art" (PDF), Proceedings of the 11th International Congress of Turkish Art (The Netherlands: Utrecht) 7 (1–24): 7



Here's a direct link to the paper aidsmonger911 cited: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32111770


Freemind explained what I was trying to deliver:

Its 'Draw Prophet Mohammed Day' and not '
Draw Prophet Mohammed as a Terrorist Day'."

So why go against it from the start? Why assume the worst? Okay, maybe it makes sense to assume the worst from some, seeing there were some angry people joining as 'revenge' and 'to show dem Muslims'. I'm not saying all those submissions were dandy - many were awful.

There were Muslims who joined, I saw, but their submissions were captioned with "You Enemies of Allah, Allah will cast fear into your hearts, Allah will this, Allah will that...PEACE!"


I found a verse today and just wanted you all to think about it.

"So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller."
- Surat al Ghashiyah verses 21,22.

We can tell them: "We don't like that because..." and whether they agree or not should be FINE with us. We can't go: "You are not allowed to say and think such things."

He (Mohammed) was not over them a controller.
You are not over them a controller.
I am not over them a controller.


Now!

Time to show you all what I participated with. I must say I expected mockery, people coming and going: "F you and your prophet and your religion". I kept that in mind.

But check this out:

My Drawing.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/4646885495_1e3125a4c4_o.jpg

The Responses.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4646880477_e1f2b38f95_o.jpg

Sometimes if we give people a chance, we'll see that it's been our fault all along for not allowing them to do that in return.

[Jeff]

Absolutely gorgeous! :)

[Russo_turisto]

So Western :p but I still like it :D

[UmKhalid]

Russo,
Photoshopped ;-)

[aidsmonger911]

That's a most excellent shoop.

[delta619]

@UmKhalid: lovely....

[Russo_turisto]

Absolutely gorgeous! :)

And the responses too :yes:

[Jeff]

And the responses too :yes:

Isn't that something? So beautiful.

Reach out to people and so often they surprise you by reaching back.

[UmKhalid]

There were more comments, by Jeff and Wudjab, but I didn't manage to print-screen those, unfortunately.

[Manta]

Hello UmKhalid how are u today? Can u plz read this ->> http://islamqa.com/en/ref/14488

and tell me what u think...

[Jeff]

There were more comments, by Jeff and Wudjab, but I didn't manage to print-screen those, unfortunately.

Wudjab's comment was glowing!

In fact, when the page closed or was removed...

100% of the comments were favorable.

And there was nothing against Mohammed or Islam.

The tone of the comments really was:

Thank you SO MUCH!

[aidsmonger911]

Read the responses to her post on Facebook - it changed everything there from the tone to the level of instant respect. The West doesn’t hate Islam, what it doesn’t like or understand is the double standard being given towards public figures which, to the West, represents a violation of core civil rights – that is to free speech [which does NOT include hate speech if you read the law].

What is needed is a civil discourse, not shouting matches.

I am about to criticize the east for a second but what I believe is the fundamental issue between the East and the West is really a lack of communication. On the east you have Islam being hijacked by those who can yell the loudest, which in this case is the Whabbists. These guys are the ones who get out there, preach about beheading, violence, war, intolerance, 6th century law and the like. While in the culture, there is a lack of criticism. Instead of getting out there and saying these Imams are wrong or these Imam’s don't represent Islam nothing is said. This is the difference between the East and the West.

In the West when someone or something gets up there and is fundamentally wrong, people do something, it's happened time and again throughout our history. They are elected out of office, or there is bloodshed, or a law is changed. In the East, the difference is disapproval is by saying nothing. Thus, what happens is the West only sees the people who win at yelling (the El Ray's of the world) and just think ok that means they are accepting it.

You have one extreme where change is a constant and people argue, engage, debate and on the other you have what is perceived silence. It is that perceived silence that is leading to the clash of civilizations [Amazing essay btw - http://history.club.fatih.edu.tr/103%20Huntington%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20fu ll%20text.htm].

The East needs to be more introspective, which was the point of my postings in this thread. To think, to explore, to understand, to find truth as it is relative within the core truths. Religion isn't stagnant, it's living, breathing and evolving - it's something subject to interpretation and always has been. It's when one stops thinking and following blindly that you stop being a good Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or Hindu. It's when you take the word of others blindly, without looking and finding the truth on your own that one fails to live the truth.

I am starting to ramble so I will cut it off here. The point at its core is East, West, Islam, Jew, need to understand and recognize there is a difference between each other. That these differences don’t represent a fundamentally divide but a different way of dealing with things. For both sides to come together, there needs to be discussion, there will be disagreement, but in the end we'll end up better off on both sides.

This post isn't meant to offend, be offensive or to insult. It is simply a perspective that may or may not differ from your own. We won't make progress if either side tries to win at yelling (El Ray), but we will make progress when we can go back and forth like we've seen in this thread, in umKalhaids post on facebook and hopefully see into the future as the seeds of democracy take hold in the Fertile Crescent.

[UmKhalid]

Hello Manta!

Ah, well did you watch this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/?

I liked it. I didn't think it was 'dishonourable' towards the prophet :PBUH:'s friends.
So I respect Sh. Mohammed Munajid's view (that fatwa is on his website so I'm assuming it's his), but I don't agree with it.

[aidsmonger911]

Hello UmKhalid how are u today? Can u plz read this ->> http://islamqa.com/en/ref/14488

and tell me what u think...

A Fatwah is the work of men, not the work of Allah or the Prophet. It is an individual (Imam's) interpretation of what he or she thinks is right. It does NOT represent the views of the whole of Islam, despite what they may want you to think.

[Manta]

A Fatwah is the work of men, not the work of Allah or the Prophet. It is an individual (Imam's) interpretation of what he or she thinks is right. It does NOT represent the views of the whole of Islam, despite what they may want you to think.When the Quran says 2 obey God and His Messenger-what does that mean 2 u?

[Manta]

Hello Manta!

Ah, well did you watch this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/?

I liked it. I didn't think it was 'dishonourable' towards the prophet :PBUH:'s friends.
So I respect Sh. Mohammed Munajid's view (that fatwa is on his website so I'm assuming it's his), but I don't agree with it.No I dont like 2 watch movie-

Now let go back 2 ur Q-because drawing pictures of animate beings are haraam...The reason why there is no picture of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10452

Allah knows best...

[UmKhalid]

Manta,

Yeah the thought that drawing is forbidden is not what all Muslims believe. I'll link you to something and I'd like you to read the introduction, alright? Just the introduction: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32111770

[UmKhalid]

Aw sorry, it's password-protected.

Alright, here's what I hoped you would read:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4647635724_9488b290c4_o.jpg


So reading that, and seeing the images of the prophet represented from that time, the second Fatwa you shared is kinda funny. Because there Are drawings of the prophet.

[Russo_turisto]

No I dont like 2 watch movie-

Now let go back 2 ur Q-because drawing pictures of animate beings are haraam...The reason why there is no picture of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10452

Allah knows best...

With this logic, all photographs, including your avatar, are haram.
There are pictures of Mohammad. Islamic ones. Just browse this thread.

OR...

*image removed*

Seems the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has brainwashed everyone with their national dogma, even the Muslims themselves...

[UmKhalid]

*image removed*

Just seeing this drawing, as a person raised Muslim, you'd immediately realize what story it's representing. This is a drawing of when the prophet Mohammed settled a dispute among Arabs on who is to carry the black stone. It's telling a story.

It was drawn by Rashidudin Hamadani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid-al-Din_Hamadani), a Persian historian, goes back to 1315.

[Manta]

UmKhalid -Good -Good-Good..Nice Infom....

Now what u think about this Quote->>
[al-Nisaa’ 4:171]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned against doing anything that may involve exceeding the limits concerning him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said: “Do not exaggerate about me as the Christians exaggerated about the son of Maryam, for I am just a slave, so say ‘The slave of Allaah and His Messenger.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, Ahaadeeth al-Anbiya’, 3189).

Imaam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab wrote a chapter entitled “Maa jaa’a ‘an sabab kufr Bani Adam huwa al-ghulw fi’l-saaliheen (What was narrated stating that the reason for the kufr of the sons of Adam was their exaggeration concerning the righteous).”, in which he said: “In al-Saheeh it is narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said, concerning the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

‘“And they have said: ‘You shall not leave your gods, nor shall you leave Wadd, nor Suwaa‘, nor Yaghooth, nor Ya‘ooq nor Nasr’ (these are the names of their idols).’

[Nooh 71:23]

– “These were the names of righteous men among the people of Nooh. When they died, the Shaytaan inspired their people to set up stone altars in the places where they used to sit, and call them by their names. They did that but they did not worship them, until those people died, then the knowledge was forgotten and they were worshipped.”

[IceTea]

We can tell them: "We don't like that because..." and whether they agree or not should be FINE with us. We can't go: "You are not allowed to say and think such things."



It seems you are happy with non muslims making fun of the Prophet PBUH by drawing pictures, etc. You can also be happy if they throw the Quran in the toilet.

No one is asking you to take action but at least reject it by your heart instead of you opening thread and waste your time trying to encourage Muslims to participate and even defend their (kuffar) actions.

[UmKhalid]

Well! Let's go back through history a bit. Let's think of the Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula.

They were all idol worshipers. The prophet feared that if they idolized him in that way, they would elevate him to the status of God. He feared they would make him holier than he is by making statues of him.

But now if I made a statue of the prophet Mohammed I wouldn't end up worshiping it, would I? (Just in case you don't get that it's a Rhetoric question, my answer is No.)

So it's not really about Drawing him or not, it's about Idolizing him, making him appear to be godlike when he is but a man.

But guess what :-) ... that's what most Muslims are doing when they shout death threats upon someone who disagree about his prophethood. We are elevating him to more than the status of prophet who is a man. And we do this while knowing he accepted this all! He accepted to be mocked, to be degraded, to be beaten... because he knew and repeated that he was Just a Man.

[UmKhalid]

I MISSED YOU ICETEA!

[Russo_turisto]

Well! Let's go back through history a bit. Let's think of the Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula.

They were all idol worshipers. The prophet feared that if they idolized him in that way, they would elevate him to the status of God. He feared they would make him holier than he is by making statues of him.

But now if I made a statue of the prophet Mohammed I wouldn't end up worshiping it, would I? (Just in case you don't get that it's a Rhetoric question, my answer is No.)

So it's not really about Drawing him or not, it's about Idolizing him, making him appear to be godlike when he is but a man.

But guess what :-) ... that's what most Muslims are doing when they shout death threats upon someone who disagree about his prophethood. We are elevating him to more than the status of prophet who is a man.

Couldn't rep you... so wiiiiise.. I'm stunned

[Manta]

It seems you are happy with non muslims making fun of the Prophet PBUH by drawing pictures, etc. You can also be happy if they throw the Quran in the toilet.

No one is asking you to take action but at least reject it by your heart instead of you opening thread and waste your time trying to encourage Muslims to participate and even defend their (kuffar) actions.:DGood point IceTea....

[Jeff]

It seems you are happy with non muslims making fun of the Prophet PBUH by drawing pictures, etc. You can also be happy if they throw the Quran in the toilet.

No one is asking you to take action but at least reject it by your heart instead of you opening thread and waste your time trying to encourage Muslims to participate and even defend their (kuffar) actions.

Ah, but you missed the point!

She is drawing people CLOSER to your religion.

No one will throw a Quran in the toilet because of UmKhalid. But some might because of you... ;)

[UmKhalid]

Oh yeah, Manta and IceTea, you caught me there, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm thankful Someone understood what I've been trying to say throughout the thread. Phew. Praise be to Allah!

[Manta]

Oh yeah, Manta and IceTea, you caught me there, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm thankful Someone understood what I've been trying to say throughout the thread. Phew. Praise be to Allah! Um Khalid dont worry I respect ur view but some-how sister, u have 2 b careful- Refer Qur'an Al-Nisaa (4:171)

[Russo_turisto]

But some might because of you... ;)
LOOOOL , Jeffo :XD: game and set!

where's the point anyway?

or in IceTea exploiting the kuffar term?

he misses UmK's point anyway... and it seems that you miss it too. read again:


Its 'Draw Prophet Mohammed Day' and not '
Draw Prophet Mohammed as a Terrorist Day'."

what do you disagree with if it's already stated that depicting the Prophet of Islam is okay...unless you're Wahhabi.

[Markov]

Rashidudin Hamadani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid-al-Din_Hamadani), a Persian historian, goes back to 1315.

On what pretext did Mr Hamadani conclude that our beloved prophet had funny looking beard? (as per the drawing)

[UmKhalid]

Not sure, I can ask him if you want?

[Manta]

You need to translate your insults so that we can all poke fun at them... ;)

Jeff Y not->
﴿وَلَن تَرْضَى عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلاَ النَّصَـرَى حَتَّى تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ﴾
(Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad ) till you follow their religion.) meaning, `The Jews and the Christians will never be happy with you, O Muhammad! Therefore, do not seek what pleases or appeases them, and stick to what pleases Allah by calling them to the truth that Allah sent you with.' Allah's statement,

[Manta]

LOOOOL , Jeffo :XD: game and set!

where's the point anyway? in the toilet?

or in IceTea exploiting the kuffar term?

he misses UmK's point anyway... and it seems that you miss it too. read again:



what do you disagree with if it's already stated that depicting the Prophet of Islam is okay...unless you're Wahhabi.Take it easy...Y ur angry?