Hadith for discussion [Archive]

IceTea

10-03-10, 08:20 AM

How about we have Hadith to discuss and learn from it.

Let us start with this one:

Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “There are two types of people who will enter the Hell-fire, whom I have not (as yet) seen: People having whips similar to ox-tails with which they will beat people, and (secondly) women who will be dressed yet appear to be naked. They will seduce men and be inclined towards them. Their heads will be like the swaying humps of bacterial camels. They will neither enter paradise, nor smell its fragrance, even though its fragrance can be smelt from such and such distance.” (Sahih Muslim, no. 2128)

In this Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) describes two types of people who will enter the fire of Hell, whom he had not seen. In other words, these two types of actions lead one to punishment and Hell in the Hereafter. May Allah Almighty save us all, Ameen.

The meaning of “women who will be dressed yet appear to be naked” (as explained by Imam al-Nawawi and others) is that they will be semi-nude. Part of their body will be covered whilst the other will remain exposed. This is clearly manifested today; in that many women wear short skirts and expose their arms, neck, hair, etc.

Imam al-Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) mentions some scholars stating that the meaning is, women will wear see-through and transparent clothing in a way that the colour of their body will be visible. This, again, is quite common today, in that many women wear very thin clothing, thus exposing their skin-colour.

A third interpretation, also recorded by Imam al-Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him), is that they will be blessed in abundance with the various gifts and bounties of Allah, yet they will not be grateful.

The meaning of “They will seduce men and be inclined towards them” is that they will walk and act in order to seduce strange men.

The meaning of “Their heads will be like the swaying humps of bacterial camels” is that they will style their hair to certain stylish hairdos, or style their hair like a hump. (See: Sharh of Nawawi on Sahih Muslim, P. 1603)

In summary, the above Hadith is one of the marvels (mu’jizah) of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). Imam al-Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“This Hadith is from the miracles of prophet-hood (nubuwwah), for these two types of people now exist. This Hadith also condemns these two actions.” (ibid)

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) envisaged the situation of certain individuals and their actions, thus informed his companions (Allah be pleased with them) and us about them. Thus, the moral of the Hadith is to abstain and refrain from these actions, for they lead one to the fire of Hell. source (http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/womencn1.htm)

I think the secondtype in the hadith is clear and it is happening in today world, how about the first type mentioned in the hadith, who are they?

DODY

10-03-10, 08:52 AM

if u want to imply the the first part into todays world, you can see guantanamo and Abu Gareeb and million of torturing jails.

um albanin

10-03-10, 02:56 PM

I have no idea about the first group, but to me, It signifies the bruitlness of the people at the end of the world. whatever they use to destroy nations . We definatly can see that now.But again, I cant explain it because I dont know.

My favourate discussion point is the the secound one whom we have been seeing all the time. You cant imagine how stupid they look ,yet they think its the "fashion"..I was happy to go to SQU (hospital) & found posters around the reception clarks windows, posting this Hadeeth & The Fatwa of Sh, Ahmed. I couldnt resist in saying to one of the receptionist : Thank you, May Allah Bless you. This is very nice. He answered : Yes, you should see the kind of veils we see. its pathetic.

What Imam AlNawawi (Mercy upon him) has said is fulfilling the explaination to me.

Reluctant

10-03-10, 05:17 PM

What Imam AlNawawi (Mercy upon him) has said is fulfilling the explaination to me.

السلام عليكم

عندي سؤال صغير...

هناك إجماع بين المذاهب من أهل السنة على حد عورة الأمة.

:وقال النووي في كتابه المجموع شرح المهذب

وعورة الرجل ما بين السرة والركبة

ثم يقول:

عورة الأمة كالرجل!

http://feqh.al-islam.com/Display.asp?DocID=24&MaksamID=987&ParagraphID=519&Sharh=0

في رأيه أنه يجوز للنساء اللاتي هن العبيد لإظهار صدورهن. الثديين ليست من العورة.

في عهد الخلفاء ، فإن الرجل المسلم قد شهدت المرأة بلا ملابس. أكثر من "فساد" اليوم!

من هذا ، المرأة اليوم يمكن القول ان الايمان والحجاب ليست هي نفسها. كان هناك بعض المسلمين في الأيام الأولى والذي أبدى أكثر من هذا الحديث. من هذا القول ، المسلمون اليوم أكثر ارتداء الملابس!

من هذا ، أنا لا أفهم الحديث والتفسير.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله

um albanin

10-03-10, 10:49 PM

As I said before, I have absolutly no knowlage of Hadeeths, I commented about this above one because I trust Sh, Ahmed Al-khalili in his judgment in hadeeths.

so the Hadeeth you brought I have never encounted it, nor I can say its trusted nor poor. reasonably I cant absolutly comment on it.

If you want my opinion , I dont think that al-Ama should be any different in any women in regarding awra, But again I live in this century where no official /formal slavory exist. so sorry, I have no Idea. I cant comment on something I dont know.

BrAiKi

11-03-10, 12:33 AM

Baa7ith..
Please provide English translation to your post. Otherwise I will have to delete it.

BrAiKi

11-03-10, 12:38 AM

Maybe it means what women are wearing nowadays, but AFAIK, women used to have something on their heads, same as mentioned in the hadith, back in the Ottoman Era.

Baa7ith, from your post I understood that you are saying that back in the Khalifas' days, people were more corrupt and women were more exposed than what they are today.
Now I find that very weird, would you please specify which khalifa's time was that? Or was it during all of the Khalifa's period?

Jeff

11-03-10, 12:48 AM

^^

For any non-Muslim reading that post who isn't familiar with the term, for "Khalifa" read "Caliph".

BrAiKi

11-03-10, 12:50 AM

Thanks Jeff, I never knew that were was a correct english word for Khalifa :p

Reluctant

11-03-10, 12:59 AM

I didn't want to post it in English. :)

There is an ijma' (consensus) among the four schools of Sunni law that the awrah of a slave woman is the same as the awrah of a man. The awrah is the legal area that must be covered in various situations. For instance, the awrah of a free woman in front of non-related men is her entire body, with the exception of the face and hands.

However, for a slave woman, the awrah is the same as a man--from the navel to the knees. It is strange that these hadiths exist, about the "worst" of women being those who wear see-through clothing, but according to Sunni fiqh, and according to the historical early Islamic practice, there were topless slave women in public. There are narrations about this. Not only this, but Caliph Umar used to beat slave women who tried to wear a hijab and said, "Do not imitate free women."

So, this is a dilemma. During the days of the caliphs, women walked around with their breasts exposed, clearly this would be considered a huge moral corruption today.

So, on this basis, I don't understand the hadith about in the end of time there being women who wear see-through clothes. So what? According to Imam al-Nawawi himself a slave woman can walk around topless.

Also, what if a woman today doesn't wish to wear hijaab and argues based on such a precedent that faith and modesty are not connected?

As for the narrations, you can search these for more:

عن أنس قال : رأى عمر أمة لنا متقنعة فضربها وقال : لا تشبهي بالحرائر

أنس بن مالك قال كن إماء عمر رضي الله عنه يخدمننا كاشفات عن شعورهن تضطرب ثديهن

So, compared to what existed back then, what exists today with whatever people think is immodest, is really nothing.

um albanin

11-03-10, 02:35 AM

Baa7ith

I am not from any sunni sects but I never heard of such a thing in sunni sector ever .( ijma' (consensus) among the four schools of Sunni law )regarding this issue.

May be you should bring the whole hadeeth (the narrator to prohhet) & from whic book, just to make sure that it exist.

But really, though am an Ibadhi, I wouldnt have mensioned your Hadeeth in this sitution, or this threadwhichis of benefit for us as muslims (not as Madh-hab) so we dont introduce conflicts . everybody is free to post Hadeeth they beleive in to benifit others, But not to cause conflicts.

The way you have written from your first post here & the secound one, personally, (This is my instinct rather than fact) , saying that the Caliphs were happy to see women naked, mensioning here the name Omar.(RAA.)in particular , seem more like sarcasizim rather thana question , brings a little of reaction, especielly when we dont beleive it.

For the record, I dont mension hadeeths much in my posts because it will mean conflicts, (from the source to its authintication). By this way we divide rather than unite.

I would would be more happy to see subjects that bring us togeather rather than speaking things that we dont know.

Remember Quran was preserved & protected & still is By Allah , But Ahaadeeth are not, all written as heard by humans so why should there be
conflicts on something who is not 100% sure(In Any Sect You Know) & leave the most Imprtant that can unite us which is the holy Quran.

If you are really interested to know about the Ahadeeths, may be you could post in a better way or specifically to people who knows about hadeeths. Remeber .

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُوا وَاخْتَلَفُوا مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (105)

And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment.

I personally any way donot beleive that Caliph Omar said thatespecielly that till recently in our nations, the aymaa do cover themselves very well, some fully sovered. , But again its your choice to beleive or reject any sources. Like its ours.

But Since you have already started this subject I think its better that you post what i your source at least so it looks more geniuine. & If you really didnt mean to be sarastic, then just remember to becareful next time.

Nerda

11-03-10, 04:25 AM

Ba7ith , im sunnia and what You mentioned is Wrong because i know this hadeeth and i never read taht there is a diffeent between slave women and the others :S ,ahh thats totally wrong

Reluctant

11-03-10, 07:51 AM

Ba7ith , im sunnia and what You mentioned is Wrong because i know this hadeeth and i never read taht there is a diffeent between slave women and the others :S ,ahh thats totally wrong

It's not wrong information.

This ruling is available in any basic Sunni text from any madhab about the "shurut al-salat." Or in "Kitaab al-Nadhr," from any fiqh book, etc. Also, you can try Google. :) This rule and the narrations about it are true, so I don't really want to go into it. If you are curious, research it yourself. :)

The only difference is that the Hanafis require the slave women to cover her back. All of them say that a slave woman's awrah is from the navel to the knees--"Ka al-rajul." A man can thus look at the chest of a slave woman and not be sinning, because it is not from her awrah.

I think about this hadith all the time actually:

"There are two types of people who will enter the Hell-fire, whom I have not (as yet) seen: People having whips similar to ox-tails with which they will beat people, and (secondly) women who will be dressed yet appear to be naked."

That is why I felt like mentioning it, because I think about it a lot. And what sense does this hadith make if this rule is true? I was demonstrating that while al-Nawawi gave his commentary on this hadith, he himself, like any Sunni, stipulates the awrah of a slave girl to be the same as a man.

Clearly people today would consider this to be more immodest than anything that women wear today. Whatever people consider to be bad morals today in terms of dress clearly holds nothing on the prevalent practice the early Muslims were familiar with. And there have been Muslim slave women throughout history who have had to abide by this rule. So, based on this principle, if a woman does not want to wear hijab, she could argue based on such a rule that modesty and faith are not connected to each other.

IceTea

11-03-10, 07:51 AM

I think baa7ith was trying to bring an opinion of someone regarding the issue of awra. Doesn't mean he agree with it.

However, if we look at the hadith which we are discussing in this thread there is no classification of women (slave or free) it refers to all women and also if we look at the Quran verses that talk about the Hijab it is for all the believing women.

IceTea

11-03-10, 07:55 AM

So, based on this principle, if a woman does not want to wear hijab, she could argue based on such a rule that modesty and faith are not connected to each other.

So why they wear Hijab while praying?

Reluctant

11-03-10, 07:58 AM

So why they wear Hijab while praying?

Honestly IceTea I think it's a huge problem and contradicts what 100% of Muslims know and feel about Islam today. But clearly throughout history Muslims had a different conception of modesty somehow. This thread is about discussion of this hadith, and this is what I think about every time I read this hadith. :)

um albanin

11-03-10, 08:13 AM

Reluctant

11-03-10, 08:17 AM

Baa7ith,

If you can read in arabic,(as you said you couldnt before) Please read this article:

http://www.mahaja.com/showthread.php?6404-%5B%5B%D8%B9%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%85%D8%A9-%D9%85%D8%AB%D9%84-%D8%B9%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AC%D9%84!!!-%5D%5D%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%86%D 9%8A-%D9%85%D8%B9-%D8%A3%D9%86%D9%87-%D9%84%D8%A7-%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84-%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87-%D9%85%D9%86-%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8-%D8%A3%D9%88-%D8%B3%D9%86%D8%A9-%D9%85%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81-%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%85%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%82%D9%88%D9%84%D9%87-%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89-(%D9%88%D9%86%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%A1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%A4%D9%85%D9%86%D9%8A%D9%86-%D9%8A%D9%8F%D8%AF%D9%86%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87%D9%86-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%AC%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%87%D9%86)

Again, The holy Quran is the Judge in anything, Return to it when you have Hadeeth conflicts. in Whatever sect you came from. Thousands of Hadeeths around we shouldnt follow accept what is authenticised, & if any contradiction, then Go back to the Holy Quran.

Al-Mu'minaat : the female beleivers (didnt exclude the slaves).

JazakAllah khair Um Albanin. I don't think it excludes them either. However, I am always concerned when I read these things from Sunni sources and I see such a huge contradiction.

Actually I can never imagine our Prophet (pbuh) hitting anyone astaghfirAllah and telling slave women to not act like free women. Or anything like this existing during his blessed life. There is always a conflict in our hadiths about the character of our beloved Prophet who was so kind and gentle, and the actions of Umar! Umar carried a whip with him (the first one to do this in Islam), our Prophet never did this. This action about the slave girls can be proven from Umar, not from our Prophet! But at the same time, as a Sunni, you are supposed to respect Umar and believe his actions were done in the spirit of the Prophet's (pbuh). But I view it as a contradiction.

IceTea

11-03-10, 08:31 AM

JazakAllah khair Um Albanin. I don't think it excludes them either. However, I am always concerned when I read these things from Sunni sources and I see such a huge contradiction.

Even Sunni scholars don't consider everything mentioned in Bukhari & Muslim collection as authentic.

Try to read from Ibadhi source of Hadith.

As um albanin said a geniune hadith will never contradict with the holy Quran.

um albanin

11-03-10, 08:35 AM

If people could say lies about prophet Mohamad SAAW, dont you think they can say lies about Umar RAA??? Its much easier to refer the words to Umar RAA rather than Prophet himself.

In General , whether we trust Umar RAA (I DO) or we dont' doesnt change the holy Quran. If he was good in reality, Alhamd lillah that I didnt accuse him of anything that Allah SWT will punish me with a sin of( Ghayba) If he was bad (I personaly doubt) then upto Allah SWT .

we should always remember :

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (134)

That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.

Dear brother,

I know this is in particular for our sunni brothers & sisters . But I beleive that they also do not accept this hadeeth.especielly that we live with them & that hadeeth hasent ben followed as we can see.

May Allah Show us the right Path Ameen. Thats what we all want whatever sect we follow

clouds

01-04-10, 08:39 PM

Even Sunni scholars don't consider everything mentioned in Bukhari & Muslim collection as authentic.

Try to read from Ibadhi source of Hadith.

As um albanin said a geniune hadith will never contradict with the holy Quran.

this is 100% UNTRUE ALL well known Sunni scholars consider SAHIH Al Bukhari and SAHIH Muslim are 100% TRUE after the Noble Quran.

SAHIH means AUTHENTIC and so was the name SAHIH.

Icetea I challange you to give me names of Sunni scholars who said not all the Hadiths in Musim and Al Bukhari are true.

may be your well known Ibadhi scholars say so BUT not our known Sunni scholars.

Bahith I will get back to you about the "awrah" of female slaves and what you said was true and there is no contradiction between the Hadith Icetea posted and the slaves at Caliphs era and the free Muslim women today.

IceTea

01-04-10, 09:29 PM

clouds

01-04-10, 11:23 PM

Clouds you may refer to the following book.

كتاب السيف الحاد في الرد على من أخذ بحديث الآحاد في مسائل الاعتقاد (http://www.ibadhiyah.net/maktabah/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178&perpage=1&pagenumber=16)

Icetea already our Sunni scholars replied to that book in your link follow this link:

http://http://block.omantel.om/new5.html?category=always_deny&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.muslm.net%2fvb%2farchive%2fin dex.php%2ft-230631.html

PS. don't waste your time the above link is blocked by Omantel if you are resident in Oman.

ns8t

02-04-10, 05:32 AM

why there is discussion, disagreament and conflict surrounding hadith? Usually i find most of the trouble comes when we isolate one hadith by itself. Out of context, any hadith can be manipulated to have many meaning. So first we use Qur'an, and after that we compare against similar hadith with different and reliable chain of narration. Some people use only one chain of narration, and logically it will be less reliable,. But more than chain of narration has to be considered...

as we know it is difficult to understand meaning of Qur'an without use of hadith, and it is also often difficult to understand significant of some hadith without also looking to other hadith. Without a whole examination of the knowledge left behind our prophet upon whom we pray peace we may misinterpret some of the knowledge.

Example: many men choose to wear a silver ring and they say it was sunnah to wear it. of course our beloved wore a silver ring, but it was for a specific purpose not for a style. other hadith explain what is the purpose. so a man who tries to follow the sunnah may ends up with a wrong interpretation.

clouds

02-04-10, 09:03 AM

Clouds you may refer to the following book.

كتاب السيف الحاد في الرد على من أخذ بحديث الآحاد في مسائل الاعتقاد (http://www.ibadhiyah.net/maktabah/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178&perpage=1&pagenumber=16)

Iceta I finally find the book which answers your above book:

قدوم كتـــــائب الجهاد (http://majles.alukah.net/showthread.php?t=7941)

download it and enjoy reading it.

IceTea

02-04-10, 09:03 AM

clouds, you didn't even read the link, it will take you to page 16 and it says examples of hadiths in the two sahih are criticized by sunni scholars like Iban qaim and Ibn taymiya and others.

Reluctant

02-04-10, 12:26 PM

Bahith I will get back to you about the "awrah" of female slaves and what you said was true and there is no contradiction between the Hadith Icetea posted and the slaves at Caliphs era and the free Muslim women today.

Assalaamu aleykum clouds.

I have only read the explanation by Ibn Taymiyyah. He said that most of the slaves during the time of the caliphs were old women, and thus they weren't obligated to wear hijaab. I know Ibn Hazm said that the awrah of a slave woman and free woman are the same, but I have not read his arguments, or how he reconciled the narrations about caliph Umar and his position.

Any other explanations would be appreciated. JazakAllah khair.

clouds

02-04-10, 05:42 PM

Assalaamu aleykum clouds.

I have only read the explanation by Ibn Taymiyyah. He said that most of the slaves during the time of the caliphs were old women, and thus they weren't obligated to wear hijaab. I know Ibn Hazm said that the awrah of a slave woman and free woman are the same, but I have not read his arguments, or how he reconciled the narrations about caliph Umar and his position.

Any other explanations would be appreciated. JazakAllah khair.

the Hadith you mentioned about Caliph Ummar (RA) beat his slave woman for covering her face and told her do not imitate free women, it's chain of narrators are authentic. (http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith/+%D9%84%D8%A7+%D8%AA%D8%B4%D8%A8%D9%87%D9%8A+%D8%A 8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%B1/+p)

this can prove one thing that free women in Ummar (RA) time were wearing neqab and covering their faces.

as for Ibn Taymeyah explanation that the awrah of slave woman is that the same of the man I do not agree with this as there is no authentic Hadith to prove it.

as for Ibn Hazm explanation that the awrah of slave women and free women are the same it makes more sense to me.

IceTea

02-04-10, 09:04 PM

clouds, this is another link and it is not Ibadhi site as you can see.

ضعيف البخاري ومسلم (http://www.ibnamin.com/daef_bukhari_muslim.htm#_Toc92456681)

Reluctant

02-04-10, 09:42 PM

the Hadith you mentioned about Caliph Ummar (RA) beat his slave woman for covering her face and told her do not imitate free women, it's chain of narrators are authentic. (http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith/+%D9%84%D8%A7+%D8%AA%D8%B4%D8%A8%D9%87%D9%8A+%D8%A 8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%B1/+p)

this can prove one thing that free women in Ummar (RA) time were wearing neqab and covering their faces.

as for Ibn Taymeyah explanation that the awrah of slave woman is that the same of the man I do not agree with this as there is no authentic Hadith to prove it.

as for Ibn Hazm explanation that the awrah of slave women and free women are the same it makes more sense to me.

Ibn Taymiyyah says the same thing as Ibn Hazm.

The only problem is, if you say that the awrah of a slave woman and free woman are the same, how do you justify Umar's actions?

Ibn Taymiyyah says that the slaves during this time were old women, and did not have to observe hijab.

How does Ibn Hazm reconcile the fact that he holds the awrah to be the same, but that Umar did this? And you said there is no contradiction between this, and the hadith IceTea posted. How is that?

And yes, you are right, it is authentic. Actually, I didn't know this, but it comes through a chain that I personally consider to be one of the most authentic:

5064 - عبد الرزاق عن معمر عن قتادة عن أنس أن عمر ضرب أمة لآل أنس رآها متقنعة قال اكشفي رأسك لا تشبهين بالحرائر

How would a woman feel today, if she struggled to wear hijab, to then find out that Umar prohibited and beat certain women who tried to wear it? It might give them a new outlook on hijab. I don't understand why Umar did this though, as the Qur'an mentions the hijab in terms of modesty, and the 'illa is the same for all women, irrespective of slave or free.

JazakAllah khair.

Jeff

03-04-10, 06:54 AM

"Take your heart's opinion, even if people give you theirs, and they always will".

~The Prophet of Islam

(hat tip to Noorah. :) )

clouds

03-04-10, 05:14 PM

^^Jeff prove to us that this Hadith is Authentic "sahih"!!!

I doubt it.

Jeff

03-04-10, 05:21 PM

^^Jeff prove to us that this Hadith is Authentic "sahih"!!!

I doubt it.

Hey, clouds, buddy, I'm ALWAYS asking you to tell me where your ahadith come from and if they are authentic. And you rarely do!

I just got this from a Muslim I deeply respect, so I figured it was well known and "in circulation".

I dunno. But read Ibn Taymiya on the usefulness of weak ahadith to a Muslim. ;)

clouds

03-04-10, 05:29 PM

clouds, this is another link and it is not Ibadhi site as you can see.

ضعيف البخاري ومسلم (http://www.ibnamin.com/daef_bukhari_muslim.htm#_Toc92456681)

what is that Link Icetea?ibnamin.com!!!

who the hell is ibnamin???

anyone opens his own site and attack the two Sheikhs Al Bukhari and Muslim should we believe them????

the FACT remains that their books are 100% TRUE and there is no weak or made up Hadiths in them ALL the Hadiths in their books are AUTHENTIC "SAHIH".

Yes Allah swt is up in the sky on his thrown.
Yes beleivers will see Allah swt face to face in heaven and this is the best thing they will ever encounter in heaven.

you can not deny above facts by saying the Hadiths mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim about this are untrue, they are 100% TRUE and Authentic.

PS.save your breath Icetea and stop posting me more links.

Jeff

03-04-10, 05:37 PM

clouds

03-04-10, 05:40 PM

Hey, clouds, buddy, I'm ALWAYS asking you to tell me where your ahadith come from and if they are authentic. And you rarely do!

I just got this from a Muslim I deeply respect, so I figured it was well known and "in circulation".

I dunno. But read Ibn Taymiya on the usefulness of weak ahadith to a Muslim. ;)

well Jeff this Hadith is not sahih 100% but "hassan" good, so I guess your Muslim friend is right afterall.

here is the reference (http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith/%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%AA+%D9%82%D9%84%D8%A8% D9%83/+p)of that Hadith.(sorry it's in Arabic).

PS I never read to Ibn Taymayah so I don't know his stand on weak Hadiths but I heard we can take by weak Hadiths sometimes, personally I don't like to unless I am sure that the Hadith is authentic "sahih".

Jeff

03-04-10, 05:47 PM

well Jeff this Hadith is not sahih 100% but "hassan" good, so I guess your Muslim friend is right afterall.

here is the reference (http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith/%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%AA+%D9%82%D9%84%D8%A8% D9%83/+p)of that Hadith.(sorry it's in Arabic).

PS I never read to Ibn Taymayah so I don't know his stand on weak Hadiths but I heard we can take by weak Hadiths sometimes, personally I don't like to unless I am sure that the Hadith is authentic "sahih".

Clouds! :)

Thanks for your honesty and for coming out and telling us about this.

I've always respected and liked you.

But I WISH you would give up smoking before it kills you....even if it DOESN'T have pig's blood in it.

I know it's TERRIFICALLY hard to do though....

clouds

03-04-10, 06:09 PM

^^

Clouds, I understand placing divine faith in the Quran. But it's always puzzled me how you can place divine faith is a collection of sayings that are humanly produced without divine protection, no matter how good they are.

Human standards always have flaws and human beings and their techniques of judgment are always imperfect.

Isn't it just a question of probabilities? And different Muslims will view those in different ways?

Jeff
the Prophet peace be upon him for sure had divine protection and every single word he said is divine and it's from Allah swt as said in the Quran ((وما أتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا)) ((whatever the Prophet tells you to do you do it and whatever he tells you not to do refrain from doing it))

the Prophet peace be upon him speech was all true and he stopped his companions to write it down in notes so as not to mix up with the Quran revelation at the time so companions memorized the Hadiths of the Prophet by heart and after his death peace be upon him all the Hadiths were noted down I am not sure in which Caliphs time it was but the chain of narrators were humans and they did make some mistakes in transfering the Hadiths so that's why great Imams like Al Bukhari and Muslim (may Allah have mercy on them) Spent most of their time and effort collecting the authentic Hadiths only. We really thank them for their effort and we are very grateful to them.

so Jeff the narrators who made mistakes but NOT the Prophet peace be upon him.

clouds

03-04-10, 06:23 PM

Ibn Taymiyyah says the same thing as Ibn Hazm.

The only problem is, if you say that the awrah of a slave woman and free woman are the same, how do you justify Umar's actions?

Ibn Taymiyyah says that the slaves during this time were old women, and did not have to observe hijab.

How does Ibn Hazm reconcile the fact that he holds the awrah to be the same, but that Umar did this? And you said there is no contradiction between this, and the hadith IceTea posted. How is that?

And yes, you are right, it is authentic. Actually, I didn't know this, but it comes through a chain that I personally consider to be one of the most authentic:

506 - عبد الرزاق عن معمر عن قتادة عن أنس أن عمر ضرب أمة لآل أنس رآها متقنعة قال اكشفي رأسك لا تشبهين بالحرائر4

How would a woman feel today, if she struggled to wear hijab, to then find out that Umar prohibited and beat certain women who tried to wear it? It might give them a new outlook on hijab. I don't understand why Umar did this though, as the Qur'an mentions the hijab in terms of modesty, and the 'illa is the same for all women, irrespective of slave or free.

JazakAllah khair.

dear Bahith why you don't make sure whether the Hadith you mentioned above in red is "sahih" authentic or not????? before you make your own conclusions and question the Quran about the Hejab whether it's obligatory or not!!!!!

the above Hadith you mentioned is not TRUE at all and here is the reference (http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith/%D8%A7%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%81%D9%8A+%D8%B9%D9%86+%D8%B1 %D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%83/+p).

my advise to you is to make sure that what you are reading is true especially when it comes to the Hadiths of the Prophet peace be upon him.

I wil give you this link to check the authenticity of any Hadith:

http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith
t

Jeff

03-04-10, 08:07 PM

Jeff
the Prophet peace be upon him for sure had divine protection and every single word he said is divine and it's from Allah swt as said in the Quran ((وما أتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا)) ((whatever the Prophet tells you to do you do it and whatever he tells you not to do refrain from doing it))

the Prophet peace be upon him speech was all true and he stopped his companions to write it down in notes so as not to mix up with the Quran revelation at the time so companions memorized the Hadiths of the Prophet by heart and after his death peace be upon him all the Hadiths were noted down I am not sure in which Caliphs time it was but the chain of narrators were humans and they did make some mistakes in transfering the Hadiths so that's why great Imams like Al Bukhari and Muslim (may Allah have mercy on them) Spent most of their time and effort collecting the authentic Hadiths only. We really thank them for their effort and we are very grateful to them.

so Jeff the narrators who made mistakes but NOT the Prophet peace be upon him.

I understand what you are saying.

But as you say, narrators can make mistakes. These things weren't collected until 200 years afterward and over the intervening time, memories can fade or be elaborated...because people can be in error.

So it's not a question of the prophet making mistakes. It's a question of collectors making mistakes, which is always possible.

So even if you say something is "sahih", you are trusting human judgment and human methods of passing things on and analyzing evidence. That is always fallible.

In other words, Bukhari and Muslim and the others were great scholars of their day. But there is no reason why they should be beyond criticism because they are only human scholars, not prophets. Right?

I guess I am saying that I see why questioning the Quran is beyond doing for those who believe in it. But I don't see why questioning ahadith should be beyond doing. Because you are not relying on God giving you a perfect book and preserving it. You are just relying on collectors, who may be right or wrong about what they collect.

Reluctant

03-04-10, 09:48 PM

dear Bahith why you don't make sure whether the Hadith you mentioned above in red is "sahih" authentic or not????? before you make your own conclusions and question the Quran about the Hejab whether it's obligatory or not!!!!!

the above Hadith you mentioned is not TRUE at all and here is the reference (http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith/%D8%A7%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%81%D9%8A+%D8%B9%D9%86+%D8%B1 %D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%83/+p).

my advise to you is to make sure that what you are reading is true especially when it comes to the Hadiths of the Prophet peace be upon him.

I wil give you this link to check the authenticity of any Hadith:

http://www.dorar.net/enc/hadith
t

Huh?

The hadith in question is sahih. You yourself said so a few posts ago. I was commenting on the fact that I was surprised that it was reported as well in the Musannaf of Abd al-Razzaq, a very early source of hadith, which I had not known before.

You said,

"the Hadith you mentioned about Caliph Ummar (RA) beat his slave woman for covering her face and told her do not imitate free women, it's chain of narrators are authentic."

"Bahith I will get back to you about the "awrah" of female slaves and what you said was true and there is no contradiction between the Hadith Icetea posted and the slaves at Caliphs era and the free Muslim women today."

So, it sounded like you knew of a way to reconcile the various reports.

Anyway, clouds, here you go:

حدثنا وكيع قال : حدثنا شعبة عن قتادة عن أنس قال : " رأى عمر أمة لنا مقنعة فضربها وقال : لا تشبهين بالحرائر " . قلت : وهذا إسناد صحيح

http://islamport.com/d/1/alb/1/3/29.html?zoom_highlightsub=%22%CA%D4%C8%E5%ED%E4+%C 8%C7%E1%CD%D1%C7%C6%D1%22

I thought you knew this. I was just commenting on the fact that it comes through multiple isnads, one of which I consider to be a very early and authentic one.

Anyway, if you can't handle it we won't talk about it clouds. In this case I don't need dorar.net to tell me if a narration is sahih, the isnad is well-known to anyone familiar with hadiths.

As you said before, the reports about Umar beating slave women and saying "do not imitate free women," are sahih. Now, why did he do this? You respect Ibn Hazm, a scholar, who in contradiction to the majority, held that the awrah of a slave woman and a free woman are the same. How does he reconcile the reports of Umar, and his position on the matter? If the awrahs were the same, why would Umar do such an action? That's all I've been asking you to clarify clouds.

I am not a Sunni, I am a Shia. So, whatever Umar did is not a reflection of how to practice Islam, but Sunnis believe that Umar governed in the spirit of the Prophet (pbuh). As Shias, we believe that Umar ruled in a cruel manner, innovated many things in religion, and lacked knowledge about religious matters. This is one of many manifestations of that fact. Of course you cannot imagine the Prophet (pbuh) doing such a thing. So, this seems to be a big problem for you all.

Wa assalaamu aleykum

clouds

03-04-10, 10:39 PM

Huh?

The hadith in question is sahih. You yourself said so a few posts ago. I was commenting on the fact that I was surprised that it was reported as well in the Musannaf of Abd al-Razzaq, a very early source of hadith, which I had not known before.

You said,

"the Hadith you mentioned about Caliph Ummar (RA) beat his slave woman for covering her face and told her do not imitate free women, it's chain of narrators are authentic."

"Bahith I will get back to you about the "awrah" of female slaves and what you said was true and there is no contradiction between the Hadith Icetea posted and the slaves at Caliphs era and the free Muslim women today."

So, it sounded like you knew of a way to reconcile the various reports.

Anyway, clouds, here you go:

حدثنا وكيع قال : حدثنا شعبة عن قتادة عن أنس قال : " رأى عمر أمة لنا مقنعة فضربها وقال : لا تشبهين بالحرائر " . قلت : وهذا إسناد صحيح

http://islamport.com/d/1/alb/1/3/29.html?zoom_highlightsub=%22%CA%D4%C8%E5%ED%E4+%C 8%C7%E1%CD%D1%C7%C6%D1%22

I thought you knew this. I was just commenting on the fact that it comes through multiple isnads, one of which I consider to be a very early and authentic one.

Anyway, if you can't handle it we won't talk about it clouds. In this case I don't need dorar.net to tell me if a narration is sahih, the isnad is well-known to anyone familiar with hadiths.

As you said before, the reports about Umar beating slave women and saying "do not imitate free women," are sahih. Now, why did he do this? You respect Ibn Hazm, a scholar, who in contradiction to the majority, held that the awrah of a slave woman and a free woman are the same. How does he reconcile the reports of Umar, and his position on the matter? If the awrahs were the same, why would Umar do such an action? That's all I've been asking you to clarify clouds.

I am not a Sunni, I am a Shia. So, whatever Umar did is not a reflection of how to practice Islam, but Sunnis believe that Umar governed in the spirit of the Prophet (pbuh). As Shias, we believe that Umar ruled in a cruel manner, innovated many things in religion, and lacked knowledge about religious matters. This is one of many manifestations of that fact. Of course you cannot imagine the Prophet (pbuh) doing such a thing. So, this seems to be a big problem for you all.

Wa assalaamu aleykum

Brother Bahith sorry for the confusion I will clarify the Hadith you mention above is sahih but the one in previous post is not sahih:
1 - أن عمر بن الخطاب قال لأمة رآها مقنعة اكشفي عن رأسك لا تشبهي بالحرائر
الراوي: - المحدث: ابن القطان - المصدر: أحكام النظر - الصفحة أو الرقم: 190
خلاصة حكم المحدث: ليس بصحيح

the above hadith which Umar (RA) told the slave remove the veil from your head then he beated her it's not authentic or sahih.

this is the sahih Hadith:

2 - رأى عمر أمة لنا مقنعة فضربها وقال لا تشبهين بالحرائر
الراوي: أنس بن مالك المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: إرواء الغليل - الصفحة أو الرقم: 6/203
خلاصة حكم المحدث: إسناده صحيح

there is no mention in this Hadith about Ummar (RA) ordering the slave to remove the veil from her head.

so we conclude that the phrase "remove the veil from your head" is added to the first Hadith which made it not sahih.

the question remains why Ummar (RA) beaten the slave?

the answer is because she put "niqab" to cover all her face like free women and hence the word "مقتنعة" which means covered all her face.

I hope this cleared things up brother.

by the way I did not know that you are Shi"at I always thought you are Sunni, may Allah swt guide you to the right path.

clouds

03-04-10, 11:04 PM

I understand what you are saying.

But as you say, narrators can make mistakes. These things weren't collected until 200 years afterward and over the intervening time, memories can fade or be elaborated...because people can be in error.

So it's not a question of the prophet making mistakes. It's a question of collectors making mistakes, which is always possible.

So even if you say something is "sahih", you are trusting human judgment and human methods of passing things on and analyzing evidence. That is always fallible.

In other words, Bukhari and Muslim and the others were great scholars of their day. But there is no reason why they should be beyond criticism because they are only human scholars, not prophets. Right?

I guess I am saying that I see why questioning the Quran is beyond doing for those who believe in it. But I don't see why questioning ahadith should be beyond doing. Because you are not relying on God giving you a perfect book and preserving it. You are just relying on collectors, who may be right or wrong about what they collect.

Jeff Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim are not normal human beings Allah swt gave them photographic memories they can memorize a book just by glancing at it once and they will not put a single Hadith in their books unless they are 100% sure it's authentic or Sahih.

through out history you will find some Muslims from different sectors or Mathhab try to falsify some Hadiths in the sahih Bukhari and Muslim just to justify and suite their belief ( like the case of Icetea) but believe you me that every single Hadith in their books is Authentic 100%.

to know more about those two great Imams just have a glance on their brief history:

Imam Bukhari (http://www.sunnah.org/history/Scholars/imam_bukhari.htm)

Imam Muslim (http://www.sunnah.org/history/Scholars/Imam_muslim.htm)

really they are outstanding human beings and we thank them from the deep of our hearts for conveying to us the TRUE and ORIGINAL Sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him.

Reluctant

04-04-10, 12:52 AM

JazakAllah khair clouds.

So, you believe Umar simply forbade slave women to wear niqaab (cover their face?), not that he forbade them to cover their hair? Is this what Ibn Hazm says as well?

These two hadiths come through the same isnad, قتادة عن أنس. Both of them are sahih.

1796 - ( قال ابن المنذر : ثبت " أن عمر قال لأمة رأها متقنعة : اكشفي رأسك ولا تشبهي بالحرائر وضربها بالدرة " ) صحيح

http://islamport.com/d/1/krj/1/7/51.html?zoom_highlightsub=%D1%C3%D3%DF+%C8%C7%E1%C D%D1%C7%C6%D1

However, تقنع means niqaab alone?

Also, what does this mean?

حدثنا علي بن مسهر عن المختار بن فلفل عن أنس بن مالك قال : " دخلت على عمر بن الخطاب أمة قد كان يعرفها لبعض المهاجرين أو الأنصار وعليها جلباب متقنعة به فسألها : عتقت ؟ قالت : لا : قال : فما بال الجلباب ؟ ! ضعيه عن رأسك إنما الجلباب على الحرائر من نساء المؤمنين فتلكأت فقام إليها بالدرة فضرب بها رأسها حتى ألقته عن رأسها " . قلت : وهذا سند صحيح على شرط مسلم

http://islamport.com/d/1/alb/1/3/29.html?zoom_highlightsub=%22%DA%E4+%D1%C3%D3%DF%2 2

JazakAllah khair.

clouds

04-04-10, 01:29 AM

Reluctant

04-04-10, 01:34 AM

JazakAllah khair clouds.

Is this what Ibn Hazm says too?

clouds

04-04-10, 06:01 AM

^^I am not sure what Ibn Hazm said about it but the sahih Hadith is self explanatory for those who can read Arabic.

the word "مــتــقــنــعــة" in Arabic has one meaning is to cover up the face or masking the face and that what women slaves were not allowed to wear they must show their faces if they were Muslim slaves.

IceTea

06-04-10, 10:01 AM

the FACT remains that their books are 100% TRUE and there is no weak or made up Hadiths in them ALL the Hadiths in their books are AUTHENTIC "SAHIH".

So why there is classification of Hadiths (true, weak, fabricated, etc)?

Yes Allah swt is up in the sky on his thrown.
Yes beleivers will see Allah swt face to face in heaven and this is the best thing they will ever encounter in heaven.

you can not deny above facts by saying the Hadiths mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim about this are untrue, they are 100% TRUE and Authentic.

And who is discussing this issues?

If you say Allah is on his thrown then it means you put Allah in one place like humans. If you say you can see Allah and you can't see him in this life then it means that Allah changes his attributes. So Clouds what you say is not logical.