The amazing Quran

[IceTea]

Let us quote one of the great Quran verses:

أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ


Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

And We have made from water every living thing

Questions:

1. Every living thing is made from water, isn't this a scientific fact?
2. Who would have known this fact 1400 + years ago?
3. Isn't this enough proof that the holy Quran is from Allah?
4. Why non believers reject such facts?

[Jeff]

Let us quote one of the great Quran verses:

أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ



And We have made from water every living thing

Questions:

1. Every living thing is made from water, isn't this a scientific fact?
2. Who would have known this fact 1400 + years ago?
3. Isn't this enough proof that the holy Quran is from Allah?
4. Why non believers reject such facts?

My general rule is to steer clear of Naik and Bucaille because so many Muslims are attached to them. But since you directly ask me why I and others don't accept such claims I will make an exception and show you why.

Well, how would you go about examining this claim?

The first thing I would do is to pose a question like this:

Did people in the ancient world believe or know or write or say that living things are made out of water? Or is the Quran the first and only source to say so?

If this idea was unheard of in the ancient world, you would have SOME evidence that the Quran saying so is remarkable.

But if this idea was COMMON AND WELL KNOWN in the ancient world, then the Quran would just be saying what was general belief at the time.

So: did people in the ancient world believe that living things were made of water?

Yes.

Following the Greeks, the ancients mostly believed that everything was made out of the Four Elements: Earth, Air, Water, and Fire.

But was there a foundational element for everything? Was there one element that all things derived from and were made of?

Thales, the most famous of early philosophers said Yes. It was WATER. This was actually one of Thales' MOST FAMOUS ideas.

And this was a VERY well known fact. It was particularly well known because the central authority for the ancients in physical questions was Aristotle.

And Aristotle points out in his famous treatise De Anima, that Thales' believed this:

For it is necessary that there be some nature (φύσις), either one or more than one, from which become the other things of the object being saved... Thales the founder of this type of philosophy says that it is water.

This famous book is called De Anima, "On Life".

Diogenes Laertes and Heraclitus Homericus and many other well-circulated ancients point out this belief of Thales and it was widely held.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales#Water_as_a_first_principle

And where did Thales get this idea? Why was it so commonly accepted?

Thales thought that the way to find the principle of all things was by searching into the principle of living things, and since all the principles or seeds of living things are moist, he thought that the absolutely first principle must be the most moist of things; and this being water, he said that water was that principle....

from Thomas Aquinas' Commentary on Aristotle's De Anima

http://books.google.com/books?id=0ptsjqxPvbQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Commentary+on+Aristotle%27s+de+Anima&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Page 25.

To sum up:

1. What did the ancients at the time of Mohammed most commonly believe that things were made from? Water.
2. How did they derive that belief? From seeing that living things have moistness in them.
3. From this obvious and easily observable fact, most ancients believed that all living things were made from water.

So, Icey, I don't personally see any reason to think there is anything remarkable in this statement of the Quran simply because this idea was well known at the time the Quran was written and it's an easy idea to come up with since water is found in all living things.

It's perfectly easy to accept the Quran as divine without recourse to these theories of scientific miracles. This idea is a very new one and until recently, Muslims did not base their faith in their Book on this.

But if you and others find comfort in this idea, I'm not going to fight to take it away from you....

This however is why I and most non-Muslims who have looked into the matter don't accept this claim about the Quran. And similar analysis of the other similar claims yields similar kinds of results, in my opinion.

[IceTea]

It is not a claim but a fact, if you read at the end of the verse Allah says "Will they not then believe'?

The key point is every living thing, even the cells in the human body it contains water. So when did this Aristotle discovered that human cells contains water for example?

[Jeff]

It says in your translation "made from water" not "contains water".

And I didn't say Aristotle "discovered it". I said that that's what he taught and what almost all the ancients believed...on the basis of common sense observations: all living things seem to contain moisture.

Every living thing is made out of water. That's what they taught. As you can see from my quotations.

You can say they just happened to be right, if you like.

So, I don't see the miracle. The Quran says what most people at the time believed.

Now that doesn't prove that God didn't dictate that line. But I see nothing scientifically amazing about it.

But you be the judge. I'm not going to tell you what to believe.

You asked me (and all non-Muslims) why we don't accept claims like this. So I answered. Anyone who is curious about your question can see my reasons for rejecting this claim.

And they can judge for themselves! :)

And now I'll just buzz off and leave the floor to you and to Muslims. I don't like interfering in people's religious beliefs. But you asked for an answer so I gave you one.