alcohol

[Mr Tickle]

I have been looking at the Koran's words on intoxicants and I have found the following verses
1)O you who believe! Approach not AsSalât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter. 16:67

2)And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom. 4:43

3) They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling.[] Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit. 2:219,

4)O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, AlAnsâb[], and AlAzlâm (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitân's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful[]. 5:90

5)Shaitân (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from As-Salât (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain? 5:91

The first three verses suggest that alcohol (in moderation is ok). The last two verses suggest alcohol is not ok - except in dire circumstances

Overall, it suggests there was an evolution in the thought process about Alcohol - ie there was change and adaption.

Surely God would would just make the one absolute comment and not leave it so vague?

[Enjoy Ur Death]

hi mr pinnochio, welcome back man :) , u know smth man, i like ur posts, they attract me alo0ot, i can't tell u that i have my finals nowdays however if i see smth from u then i cannot stop my self from replying on ur easy inquiries about my Holly Islam, who known may be i have genetic defect call inability to control

1st
it seems that we have a new genetic defect that's why u r making this new thread ... by the way, i think that some people over here has a genetic defect in which they just open a discussion then disappera totally from that discussion, what do u think, do they have a genetic defect in their receptors of recieving or what ??!!

2nd
before islam there were many wrong practices and drinking alcohol was one of the most esntial practice in that community, wo it wasn't logic to stop it all at once and that's why the order from ALLAH to make it forbidden cam by steps and not all at once ... and these different phrases u brpought from the holly Quran shows and proves that + hadeths

3rd
the order of forbidding alcohol is not vague except for bad people who listen to what the Quran says and then they make fun and discourage its practice and this is written in the Quran but i am sorry i don't the site from which u can get this english translation of the Quran

4th
ALLAH made one clear statement and for ur bad luck mr pinnochio all muslims believe that this order came in this sequence ...

5th
u r doubting about ALLAH's wise here in ordering in such a sequence and i won't discuss this topic alot cos if he wan't wise he wasn't be able to make such a complicated creature called human, especially those who r doubting his wisdome after being created by him

good luck, try another topic now man

[Mr Tickle]

EUD,

I am researching a PRO ISLAMIC SITE - here is the URL

http://students.washington.edu/rameez/islam/quran/noble/subject1.htm#I

Did Allah stop everything else by degrees as well - sex etc - as that is the only way your argument can have merit?

We all agree that drink in moderation is good for you - even Allah says this

So, whay can't you drink in moderation?

[Bimzoori]

Good topic MrPinnochio..and nice to know that you have made an effort to read the Quran...

I wont add much to what Enjoy ur Death said...Islam came at a time people were immensed in shear ignorance..it came at a time alcohol was part of normal daily life and was associated with amusement and enjoyment...it would have been definitely illogical to ban alcohol from the community from the very first days of Islam..so the banning process came in steps..in chronological order, Verses number (2) and (3) in your list was revealed first...

"They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling.[] Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit."[ 2:219]
and
And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom"[16:67]


Alcohol is responsible for the destruction of health, depression of mind, absorption of wealth, etc, etc...why then does theverse suggest that it has some "benefit for men" ? Thats because at that time, people used to trade with alcohol, and thus, they did get some benefit from this trade...
This verse marks the first of a series of steps that in time culminate in total prohibition...

The next stage was prohibiting people from praying while they were intoxicated, and as you know, Muslims pray 5 times a day, which left people with very limited time to consume alcohol..during our prayers, it is only right that we approach Allah with our whole minds..thus the verse..

"O you who believe! Approach not AsSalât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter"[4:43]


Finally, when people were ready to accept the prohibition of alcohol, the verses came clear that Alcohol should be banned from the Muslim community...this is the final word about alcohol..and according to chronological order, these verses were revealed the latest with regards to alcohol prohibtion...

I hope this makes things clear..

[Equality]

I woul like to post this story regarding that alcohol is the head of all sin,
first i will apologize for bad english, but i will try.

here we strat,
In the old past days, a religious straight man who has trying his best to advise his people to be in the right way and avoid all kind of sin, has been tested by a group of bad people and ordered him to choose one kind of sin to make, and he has no choice in avoiding all of them, the sin were either to
1. kill innocent man
2. sleep with a woman
3. stealing
5. drinknig alcohol
the religious man finally selected the easiest sin which is drinking alcohol. once he got drunk, he did all the other sins, he slept with a woman, and killed a man, and steal money.

[Seniora]

good examples samaki, it helped put things in the right perspective.

[Mr Tickle]

oh well, that proves it then

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by samaki
the religious man finally selected the easiest sin which is drinking alcohol. once he got drunk, he did all the other sins, he slept with a woman, and killed a man, and steal money.

Funny, I've been drunk, and I've never done any of those things.

what am I doing wrong?

[Enjoy Ur Death]

so the Q is why alcohol

it seems that mr pinnochio doesn't have a good medical background ... let me tell u the following things which r written in the DAVIDSON"S TEXTBOOK OF MEDICINE and other medical books :)

1st
alcohol should never withdrawn all at once cos that it self can casue alot of problems and can be very tough on alcoholics which might make them return to drinking alcohol.

2nd
treatment of alcohol drinking is most successful in groups which is known as group therapy and in which alcoholics encourage each other and share their experiences in stopping alcohol drinking + cessation of drinking should always done in steps

3rd
if really u agree on what ur doctors discovered then let me tell u and all other muslims that this is an old theory as Islam asked to stop alcohol for the whole society ( = group) together and in steps :)

any Qs more?

by the way no doctor say that u have to stop illegal sex in steps because u don't get addicted to it unless u r genetically defective !!! :p

[NaBHaN]

Originally posted by MoonChild


Funny, I've been drunk, and I've never done any of those things.

what am I doing wrong?


it doesn't have the sam effect on everyone my dear!! ;) , and don't try to hide the fact the most crime cases in the U.S or other western countries are caused by drunken men or women!!

[fatak]

Why did God create alcohol?

> > > So ugly people could have sex too.

[X-press]

Correction
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr pinnochio
1)O you who believe! Approach not AsSalât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter. 16:67<=wrong, should read 4:43

Yusuf Ali Translation:
O ye who believe! Aproach not prayers with a mind befogged until ye can understand all that ye say - Nor in a state of ceremonial impurity

The reference is either to a state of intoxication or to a dazed state of mind on account of drowsiness or someother cause; or perhaps both are implied. Before the prohibition of intoxicants altogethe was promulgated, it was at least unbecoming that people should come to prayers in such a state. For prayers it is only right that we should collect our whole minds and approach Allah in a spirit of reverence.

[X-press]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
2)And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom. 4:43<=wrong, should read 16:67

Yusuf Ali Translation:
And from the fruits of the date palm and the vine, get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a Sign for those who are wise.

These are wholesome drinks and foods that can be got out of the date palm and the vine: expl. non-alcoholic drinks from the date and the grape, vingegar, date sugar, grape sugar, and dates and grapes themselves for eating.

If sakar is taken in the sense of fermented wine, it would refer to the time before intoxicants were prohibited, for this is a Makkah Surah and the prohibition came in Madinah. In such a case it would imply a subtle disapproval of the use of intoxicants and mark the first of a series of steps that in time culminated in total prohibition.

[X-press]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
3) They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling.[] Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit. 2:219,[/QUOTE]

Yusuf Ali Translation:
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr pinnochio
4)O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, AlAnsâb[], and AlAzlâm (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitân's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful[]. 5:90

Yusuf Ali Translation:
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gamblimg, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.


Wine: Khamr: literally understood to mean the fermented juice of the grape; applied by analogy to all fermented liquor, and by further analogy to any intoxicating liquor or drug. There may possibly be some benefit in it, but the harm is greater than the benefit, especially if we look at it from a social as well as an individual point of view.

[Wanderer]

X-Press,

Why do you write "Yusuf Ali Translation:" ??

What difference does it make who translated it if they are all translated identically ?

[Bimzoori]

Originally posted by Wanderer
X-Press,

Why do you write "Yusuf Ali Translation:" ??

What difference does it make who translated it if they are all translated identically ?

The translations are not "idnetical" , Wanderer, since they were written by human beings..each translator has his own style of writing...

[IceTea]

Alcohol is harming the person body and also affects the people around in one way or another. And Allah knows more than us about the consequences of alcohol for the human being, this is why its not allowed in Islam. Also it will make people who take it in the same level as animals with brain but can't think. Another thing people who drink alcohol in this life will not drink it in the heaven, where rivers of wine and pure honey rivers as well will be avilable but different and sweetest than human being alcohol.

[sanwin25]

How do you know what kind of alcohol is available in heaven ?

[Bimzoori]

Originally posted by sanwin25
How do you know what kind of alcohol is available in heaven ?

"(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?[47:15]

The wine in Paradise is not like any wine on earth as it doesnt cause any intoxication, but is an ever "joy to those who drink"...

[sanwin25]

Or maybe you just don't get drunk in heaven ? :confused:

[lulu]

First of all....let me ask a Question.

WHY DO PEOPLE DRINK THIS **** IT STINK AND DO YOU KNOW HOW IT"S MADE ...YUK!!!?

[sanwin25]

WHY DO PEOPLE DRINK THIS **** IT STINK AND DO YOU KNOW HOW IT"S MADE ...YUK!!!?

I couldn't figure out what was hidden under those **** so please do tell.

And no, we don't.

Pray, please do tell us how it is made.

[FaHaD]

wel done friends.....
alcohol has both good effect and bad effect ... but if u weigh the both u will find the bad effect are more and serious than the good effect.... and this is well mentioned in the holy quraan... another evidence that quraan is not human made..

enjoy ur death,, friend they don't believe in other books except those witten by jews,,, let them check Cesil textbook of medicine...

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by FaHaD
enjoy ur death,, friend they don't believe in other books except those witten by jews

Tsk, tsk. There you go again.

Read your European and American history. Jews haven't been particularly well treated by our ancestors either.

Who has been brain-washing you and why do you mindlessly accept it?

[Equality]

What Alcohol Does

You may have heard that drinking wine in moderation (1 to 2 glasses a day), is beneficial in helping to reduce heart failure. Even if this is true, the harm from alcohol outweighs the good, so it should be avoided (verse 2:219 of Qur'an). If you want to help your heart, there are better ways to do it, like exercising and eating less saturated fat and cholesterol.

Alcohol acts on the CNS (Central Nervous System). Drinkers have more accidents (automotive, and in general) due to decreased ability to function while under the influence of alcohol. Long term alcohol abuse can lead to: hepatitis, pancreatitis, gastrointestinal bleeding, ulcers, heart disease, dementia, cardio-myopathy, vitamin deficiencies, and cirrhosis of the liver.

Cirrhosis of the liver can occur when a person drinks every day. Women who drink two or more drinks a day, and men who drink 4 drinks a day, are at risk for developing cirrhosis. A �gdrink�h equals 1.5 ounces of 80-proof liquor, 5 ounces of wine or 12 ounces of beer. The liver gets used to a steady supply of alcohol, and chooses alcohol as its main source of fuel, leaving fatty acids(the preferred fuel of choice in a healthy liver) to collect in the tissues of the liver, which cuts off the blood supply to the organ. Liver cells begin to die and scar tissue is formed, deforming the liver. At the acute stage, the person will experience high blood pressure, an accumulation of fluids in the abdomen, vimoting of blood, hepititis and possibly liver cancer.

CAT scans of the head show that heavy, long-term consumption of alcohol can cause the brain to shrink. Alcohol irritates the stomach and interferes with absorption of vitamins, minerals and other nutrients. It can contribute to obesity due to its high calorie content. The liver is damaged when alcohol causes accumulation of fatty deposits, which eventually leads to cirrhosis of the liver. High blood pressure and alcohol abuse often go together.

Recent research shows that the corpus callosum (the part of the brain that connects its left and right hemispheres) is smaller in alcoholics. Also it has been demonstrated that female alcoholics sustain even greater brain damage than men.

Risk of osteoporosis (weakened bone tissue) increases for female drinkers. There is also support in medical research to show an association between alcohol consumption and breast cancer risk. In addition, women who become drunk are more likely to be victims of rape and other violent crimes, while drunk men are more likely to be the cause of violent crimes.

Drinking alcohol during pregnancy can lead to birth defects in the baby. In fetal alcohol syndrome, the child will often display signs of mental retardation, and have closely set eyes, a small nasal bridge, epicanthal eye folds, heart valve lesions, microcephaly, small teeth and poor tooth enamel, limited joint movement and an inability to pay attention.

There is great wisdom in the prohibition of drinking alcohol!


References:
"Islam and Alcoholism" by M.B. Badri, Dr. Scheuler's Home Medical Advisor, Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, CNN, Medical Correspondent Jeff Levin, "The Wellness Encyclopedia" (UC @ Berkeley), "A Meta-Analysis of Alcohol Consumption in Relation to Risk of Breast Cancer," JAMA Vol. 260, #5, �gWorld Medicine�h by Tom Monte, et al, and the National Council for Alcoholism (212) 206-6770

[Enjoy Ur Death]

what shall i say more here friends

Moon child, can i ask u to think realistic, please don't take my request as a joke but please take it seriously, r u here to know and discuss or to discuss and be on the same point of view ?? it was so obvious that u didn't like what FaHad said about u noy believing any thing except from Jewish books .. but for the sake of the baby which is in ur womb, didn't we give the scientific evidence for the importance of not stopping alcohol intake at once but it should rather be in steps ??!! what is this discussion for then !!!!:lost:

if we r here to learn from each other ( that's why i asked u what does love mean in West in the general sabla) then we should really learn and improve our opinions and views other wise we r discussing for nothing, just to pass time and have fun which i think u agree with me is not the aim of any scientific discussion ... please, tell me what is ur aim in this discussion, i don't mean u by ur self but any one who was asking the Q of this topic ??

moon child, sorry if i were so offensive in my words with but believe me i don't understand any further discussion in the presence of scientifc evidence ( not islamic evidence as u don't believe in it )

[sanwin25]

Doing anything in excess is harmful to the body. Eating too many french fries or too many Big Mac burgers can lead to heart disease and even death.

Why didn't the Koran ban then as well ?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Enjoy Ur Death
it was so obvious that u didn't like what FaHad said about u noy believing any thing except from Jewish books ..

Good. It should have been obvious. I firmly believe that when discussing ideas, we should consider the ideas themselves not the ethnic/religious/whatever background of who said them. Good ideas, good science, stands on its own.

Racism, bigotry, and prejudice only get in the way of reasonable discussion.


what is this discussion for then !!!!:lost:

Actually, the discussion began when Pino asked for clarification about the "policy" of Allah toward alcohol. Several people provided an explanation as to the gradual banning of alcohol from use by Arab society.
THEN the discussion digressed into the physical effects of alcohol,
and the reasons for an INDIVIDUAL gradually decreasing alcohol intake if he has very heavy alcohol consumption (very different topic). I didn't make any comment whatsover about those posts, I only objected to the racist statement which followed.


tell me what is ur aim in this discussion, i don't mean u by ur self but any one who was asking the Q of this topic ??

How can I possibly answer for anyone else but myself?
I read the original question and the answers with interest. It was new information to me. There was no need for me to offer my opinion - I simply learned something new about Islam.

Once people wandered off topic and started arguing, I objected to the comment about "not believing anything not written by a Jew" because that sort of prejudice can ONLY stop communication and close minds. Particularly since it's not true. What place does a comment like that have in a "scientific discussion" of alcoholism or the even the original topic (Islamic view of alcohol use in society)? None.

I hope this answers your question. I'd be happy to tell you more about me and my philosophy (of anything), but perhaps a new thread would be appropriate :)

[Bimzoori]

Originally posted by sanwin25
Doing anything in excess is harmful to the body. Eating too many french fries or too many Big Mac burgers can lead to heart disease and even death.

Why didn't the Koran ban then as well ?


In Islam we have the concept of "la dharar wala dhirar", roughly meaning that we should avoid anything that would harm us or harm others...

In saheeh Al-Bukhari, there is a whole chapter of sayings of the prophet called the The Book of Foods (Meals)

REgarding your question in the above quote..theres is this hadeeth from Saheeh Al-Bukhari...

"A believer eats in one intestine (is satisfied with a little food), and a disbeliever eats in seven intestines (eats much food)"

and in another saying, the prophet says (rough translation), that we shouldn't eat unless we're hungry, and when we eat, we shouldnt fill up our stomach..

These are the teachings of our beloved prophet, who does not say out of his own desire, but is taught by the One God, who has created us..and knows what is best for us..

[Enjoy Ur Death]

thank u moon child, this makes thing clear for me

regarding what was asked about other things which become harmful if taken in excessive amount, i agree with what Bimzori said and i think it is enough .... + every thing ( in inappropriate exessive amount) is discouraged in the holly Islam as well as in common sence :gap:

[sanwin25]

I repeat. Eating too much fat is very bad for your health. Why hasn't it been specifically forbidden as well (any way you like, immediately or slowly in stages so people can get used to it) ?

[Enjoy Ur Death]

salam for all muslims and ALLAH's mad be on all who works against his way

1st
i think this Q was answered ... the holly Quran is not a dietition book or a driving book to tell u not to take things namelly in excessive amount . it is a general guidlines book, thus it says :
1- any thing harms u for sure is forbidden
2- any thing in excessive inappropriate amount is discouraged

2nd
in alcohol, the holly Quran said that it has some advantages + has more sin ( which is not the opposite of advantages as a word )

3rd
naming smth specifically doesn't mean that all single things should be named

4th
be realistic and think logically .. please :gap:

[sanwin25]

Ah, but thats where you are wrong my friend. Your religion dictates to you every single thing you need to do. Which side to sleep on, which direction to face while urinating, which hand to eat with, with foot to step into the toilet with, which number of stones to clean yourself with,...

Granted, many are from the Hadith but thats all a part of your religion.

Now it seems strange all this emphasis on alcohol and sex as if these were the only two vices that a human being can commit. If the Quran can be so explicit about alcohol, it seems to have overlooked other equally dangerous excesses.

To you it might all seem completely logical but thats not the view from out here.

[Enjoy Ur Death]

u said it by urself ... most came from hadith which explained everything and the holly Quran came to give the guidlines however u still doesn't understand this , do u know smth called examples ??!!
if u looked closely u might be able to understand why alcohol ( it might be cos although after all these years after islam was established the science came to aprove that alcohol is harmful generally + still some silly people drink it or discuss whether it is correct to forbid it or no, but what to do , hen u r drunk u r not in ur normal mentality :D )

[Bimzoori]

Sanwin..have you ever heard of the term Qiyas??

Islam has survived for 1400 years, and unlike other religions, it is the only religion that has its original text uncorrupted..Islam came as a gide for all humanity..one of the reasons that Isalm has survived all those years, and is still extensively practised, is that it is flexible..that is, there are some fundamental beliefs that remain stable (eg, belief in One God, etc ) and fundamental practices that also remain stable no matter when and where Islam is practiced (eg, prayers, fasting,etc )..AND, theer are also details that shape the Muslim character and manners... besides all that, sometimes issues come up on daily basis but are not mentioned in Quran and Sunna, and thats very normal, since we are living in a world that faces tremendous changes as life goes on..something like drugrs...drugs werent existant during the days of the porphet, so what is Islam's point of view on that???

Here comes the word Qiyas...Muslim scholars try to measure the contemporary issue with an old one that is found in either Quran or Sunna, and thus be able to come up with a "hukm" on that issue, ie, halal or haram....



(Mind my poor language.)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Bimzoori
Islam has survived for 1400 years, and unlike other religions, it is the only religion that has its original text uncorrupted..


Provided we ignore the following:

"Satanic verses" of revering the 3 goddesses, which were later removed.

No origional to compare current copies to.

[Arabian Princess]

Wanderer,

Yes ofcourse there will always be pople who will try to show thier corruption power and try to corrupt it but they wont succed.
are the "setanic verses" approved? all muslims around the word know that those are nothing related to the Quran , so it is not an example of a corrupted Quran because it is not accepted!

[sanwin25]

What happened to the verse about stoning to death for adultery ?

[Orion]

Wanderer, I did a bit of research to make sure you understood what a crack-head the author of that book was.

Here are the original verses (never altered and never removed):

Surah 53
19. Have you then considered Al-Lât, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs)

20. And Manât (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?

21. Is it for you the males and for Him the females?

22. That indeed is a division most unfair!

23. They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allâh has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord!


The author misguided understanding probably was attained from at least two early Muslim scholars, ibn Sa'd and an anonymous Persian historian, have related a legend (notice the word legend) which explains the origin of a group of apparently contradictory verses in the Qur'an.

However the author, only quotes the first two parts of 19, 20 when wrote the parody in his book and fails to reveal all of it in his (and I must say from someone who read part of it) sick, twisted, and sad attempt to make money at the expense on God's religion.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Orion
Wanderer, I did a bit of research to make sure you understood what a crack-head the author of that book was.

Here are the original verses (never altered and never removed):


So you claim.

"The Qur'an, as it now reads, obviously rejects these deities. But—and here comes the issue—did the Qur'an and Muhammad always reject them?

While Muhammad was in Mecca, his followers were few, his movement grew painfully slowly and he, too, felt the pain of estrangement from his tribe. According to early and treasured biographical and historical accounts of Muhammad, authored by competent Muslim scholars (such as writings of at-Tabari and Ibn Sa’d), Muhammad longed for better relations and reconciliation with his community. Thereafter, the accounts continue, God revealed Surah 53 to Muhammad up to and including vss. 19, 20. These two verses read:

Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other? (53:19,20)

Then, originally, the verses (known today as the satanic verses) followed:

These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for.

The cranes whose intercession was recognized were, of course, the three deities. The same accounts tell us that after this revelation was completed, Muhammad, his followers and the pagan Arabs all prostrated. Tensions eased, reconciliation was at hand, and all were delighted.

But Muhammad soon retracted the reconciliation—how soon is not clear. For the account continues that Jibril (Gabriel), the angel of revelation, informed Muhammad that Satan had used Muhammad's desire for reconciliation with the pagan leaders to insert into the revelation of God the verses about the interceding cranes, otherwise called "the satanic verses. "

Very interesting stuff, this. All we have to do is look at the origional Quran to see, eh?

[Orion]

Yes, do you have a copy?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Orion
Yes, do you have a copy?

Cute. I like that - British education?


The original would be the best proof, no ?

[Bimzoori]

Wanderer, what book have you been reading?


Very interesting stuff, this. All we have to do is look at the origional Quran to see, eh?

very interesting,ofcousrse....thats because it was written by Orientalists who try to propagate wrong info abt Isalm...keep reading these types of books, Wanderer..

wanderer, you would find 100's of books such as those that you are reading out there in the market..who were they written by??? next time you decide to widen your knowledge abt a religion, make sure you get the info from reliable sources, otherwise you would be waisting your precious time :cool:

If one author manages to convince you abt the information you have provided (in your last post), how come you're still not convinced that the Quran has remained unchnaged, even though 1 billion people around the world agree on that???? This tells alot about your willingess to learn something from us, right??

[Wanderer]

Bimzoori,

I'm not wasting my time. I am learning.

I listen to you and others that believe that the Quran has never changed, and I'm listening to counter arguements by others - some are apostate, some appear to be Shiite (Shia ?), some are western, some are zealous Christian who think that by "disproving" Islam they bolster their religion.

Learning about both sides of an issue.

Are you familiar with this methodology?

[Wanderer]

This is the kind of stuff I'm reading.

From: http://www.rim.org/muslim/shiite.htm


"According to Sunni scholar Fazlur Rahman, "the Shi`a.. which differs from orthodoxy doctrinally, also has an entirely separate body of Hadith." Shiites, in contrast to Sunnis, accept the hadiths of Muhammad and the Imams, as being of equal importance and validity. The Shi`a also have different interpretations for parts of the Quran. According to the Sunnis "there is nothing in the Quran and the Tradition to support the Shii claim that the Imamate is one of the 'pillars' of religion." However, Shiites, especially in areas concerning the Imamate and esoteric interpretation of the Quran, disagree with Sunni interpretation and construction of Quranic verses - as in Surah 3:7. Another conflict of Quranic interpretation is Surah 3:110, where the Shiites instead of reading the Arabic word umma in reference to peoples or community, read the word a'imma in reference to the Imams. As the Shiites also historically do not accept the caliphs as the legitimate leaders of the Islamic community, there is the "tendency to suggest modifications to the [Quranic] text - citing additions, omissions, changes and alterations to the version promulgated by Uthman." The importance of these discrepancies is far reaching as the Quran and Hadith are the sources of authority for both Islamic law and theology. These serious questions about the essential foundations of Islam remain unresolved to the present."


However, because this is from a "Christian" - oriented site, further investigation is warrented. See, I know better than to blindly trust a Christian source on Islam. :cool:

[Orion]

I like your style Wandy!!! it's all about academic, tolerant discussions...

[Enjoy Ur Death]

salam for all muslims

welcome wanderer, so u like the academic way now ... co0o0ol, we r improving man
by the way, since u r not muslim, don't try tobother ur self whith what different sects say, try to find and ask about the fundamentals of islam (general advise if u accept it )

finally, there is no difference in the way of reading the holly Quran among muslims .... yes, there were different of reading it or in fact pronouncing the words but they all agreed finally one one way ... so don't believe what ever u hear or read :)

[Mr Tickle]

does the Koran say anything about smoking?

[Enjoy Ur Death]

in general, mr pinnochio, the holly quran says that any thing which can bring harm for u in great certainty should be left and not be used + any thing that destroy ur life should be avoided ( and i think this is a common sence :) )
(æ áÇ ÊÄÏæÇ ÃäÝÓßã Çáì ÇáÊåáßÉ)

[Mr Tickle]

it seems as though the Koran can be as specific as it wants or as general as it wants

'avoiding everything bad for you' does not strike me as earth-shattering advice

[Orion]

Where are you going to get into your skull that nobody care anymore what you think?

You've burnt up your currency with your racisim... understand?

Yes?

Thanks Mr. PinPrick

[Mr Tickle]

Orion,

on what basis are you calling me a racist or a bogot?

These are very serious accusations - the sort of accusations that can only come about from knowing someone a very long time

You don't know me at all - unless you ard Sun or Shaq that has come back with a different name

you have been on the board 3 minutes and you come out making all these accusations.

Is it your standard response to make wild accusations when you read someone you don't like?

Hang on a minute, are you one of these people who believe everything you read thats good about Arabs and everything you read thats bad about the west?

Are you an example of Islamic justice?

I suggest you see a doctor about that temper of yours

Incidentally, if you don't care about what I write - never, ever post a reply againg

[Orion]

I'm not going to do anything that will allow you to steamroll your way into not answering the bigger question...

What do you hope to gain by asking these questions?

What is the basis of your research... what are your 'positive' goals?

[Mr Tickle]

I have been on this board too long to owe you an explanation - especially after your attitude

email somrone else and ask them

try and find rhe quotes about me and other westerners relating to how our topics have made people have a greater unnderstanding of their religion

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Enjoy Ur Death
..don't try tobother ur self whith what different sects say, try to find and ask about the fundamentals of islam (general advise if u accept it )]

No, investigating the dissentions is an excellent way to learn about a theory, issue, etc. Yes there are "fundamentals" and I may be intregued by some of them, however, the reason for dissention may lead to some interesting facts. Just like listening to the evolutionists argue over steady change vs. punctuated equilibrium.



Originally posted by Enjoy Ur Death
[B]
finally, there is no difference in the way of reading the holly Quran among muslims .... yes, there were different of reading it or in fact pronouncing the words but they all agreed finally one one way ... so don't believe what ever u hear or read :)

Oh, OK, i didn't know that. I'd be interested to know the following:

1) Who admitted that they were wrong, Sunni or Shiite?
2) Where and when did the two reach this agreement to create a single understanding and intrepretation of Islam, i.e. was there a convention ?

[Talius Brute]

The simple fact of the matter is that Islam, the same as all other religions has been corrupted and changed and degraded (though whether it came from a particuarly high level in the first place is debatable)
However, given the fact the Islam is a relatively recent religion, at least in so far as it's first texts were capable of being preserved, it is quite understandable that the Muslim clerics should try their hardest to convince people that the faith remains true.

[Enjoy Ur Death]

salam for all muslims and may ALLAH show his way for his other creatures

1st
mr wounderer, waht is ****e ?

2nd
the agreement was looooooooooooooooong time back at the very early years of establishing the islamic country....

3rd
mr TB... do u want to say smth?

4th
mr pinnochio, dod u get ur answer about smoking ?

[Mr Tickle]

not yet!

[Bimzoori]

Originally posted by Talius Brute
The simple fact of the matter is that Islam, the same as all other religions has been corrupted and changed and degraded (though whether it came from a particuarly high level in the first place is debatable)
However, given the fact the Islam is a relatively recent religion, at least in so far as it's first texts were capable of being preserved, it is quite understandable that the Muslim clerics should try their hardest to convince people that the faith remains true.

thats not true mrTB..teh Quran has remained in its original form..and will remain uncorrupted and unchanged to the last day..it is Allah's promise to preserve it....

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)” [15:9]

This is why you find Muslims from every corner of the globe using the same Quran..had it been corrupted, you would have found a gazillion versions of the same book..but thats not the case with the Quran..