Christian women lost her name!!

[abu Suleiman]

While the westerners talk and discuss between themselves our between muslims they forget that a small right of the christian women lose it in the mintue she gets married with a man that her name.
Eg If Marry White got married with Paul Ross her name will be Marry Ross.

[sanwin25]

No I just found it lying by the roadside. Its not lost anymore.

When the testimony of one woman is equal to a man's then please come forward and post this topic once again.

[abu Suleiman]

You show me the equality in this subject?
Why your women lose their surnames?
Why they cant get divorced?

[Wanderer]

Changing one's name is optional, it is NOT required.

I decided on keeping my last name when I got married, MoonChild took my last name when we married.

We could, of course, have both decided to change our last name to something entirely different.

But I like Mr. and Mrs. Wanderer.

[sanwin25]

Who said they can't get divorced ?

And you haven't yet answered the question about 1 mans evidence = 2 womens.

[abu Suleiman]

You r mixing again.
2 women with a man for evidence in case ther is no other man, that dooesnt mean that 2 women equals to 1 man.
Allah Has mentioned man and 2 women in the evidence only and why that only in case of one of them has forgotton the other will remind her.
Read in the Quran verse no 32. ááÑÌÇá äÕíÈ ããÇ ÇßÊÓÈæÇ æ ááäÓÇÁ äÕíÈ ããÇ ÇßÊÓÈä.

[sanwin25]

Why should it be different in case of evidence ?

And what happens when a man forgets ? Who will remind him ?

[abu Suleiman]

If the man forgets the 2 ladies will remind him.

[sanwin25]

So you agree a man can also forget. This confirms that a man is considered superior to a woman ! A man can forget but that ok. A woman might forget so her testimony is equal to only half a mans. So a second woman is required ! A fine sense of equality, I must say !

Why not just have a second man to remind him. That way everyody is equal.

[abu Suleiman]

Why your married ladies lose their surnames after marraige?
This is in your cultures, isnt it?

[sanwin25]

They don't have to do it. They choose to. It's a SOCIAL custom not a RELIGIOUS edict. They are free to change it to whatever they like (of course most don't because they marry someone they love and have no problems taking on a new surname).

Now back to the topic. Why 2 women for 1 man.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by abu Suleiman
While the westerners talk and discuss between themselves our between muslims they forget that a small right of the christian women lose it in the mintue she gets married with a man that her name.


Basic flaw of your argument: West does NOT equal Christian. social custom does not equal religious edict (at least for us).

Second flaw: Christian women are not instructed in the Bible to take on the name of their husband, so no "right" has been "lost".

So what was your point, exactly? It appears you are trying (badly) to show the inferiority of western/christian culture (which you have confused), and thus establish the superiority of arab/muslim culture, about which you say nothing.

Why?

[sanwin25]

Does nobody want to continue this discussion ? :confused:

[X-press]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I decided on keeping my last name when I got married,
:confused:...Do you have a choice? Since when a man in the east or in the west has a choice of changing his name when he gets married? Give me a case when a man took his wife's name or else when he exchanged his vows?

Originally posted by Wanderer
MoonChild took my last name when we married.
Sorry Wandy, but it is not optional as you said but a must in the west. Even if you die (God forbid), your wife will keep your last name unless she is divorced from you and ASK through a lots of formalities to regain her maiden name.

Originally posted by Wanderer
We could, of course, have both decided to change our last name to something entirely different.
Never heard of such a thing!!

[sanwin25]

X-press.

You did not address any of the issues pointed out by Moonchild or myself.

[MoonChild]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by X-press
[B]

Originally posted by Wanderer
MoonChild took my last name when we married.
Sorry Wandy, but it is not optional as you said but a must in the west. Even if you die (God forbid), your wife will keep your last name unless she is divorced from you and ASK through a lots of formalities to regain her maiden name.

Sorry X-Press, you are mistaken. It was completely optional for me to change my name when I got married. I know many women who retained their "maiden" names after marriage, and many more who "hyphenate" - for instance Mary Jones married John Smith and changes her name to Mary Jones-Smith.

Lots of folks change their names entirely, for instance it's popular to convert to Islam (or pretend to - as Nation of Islam bears little resemblence to real Islam) and change your name- for instance, Cassius Clay changed his to Mohamed Ali. More recently, a local politician, JeRoyd Wiley Greene changed his name to JeRoyd X Greene but then became Sa'ad El-Amin in the 1970s when he was chief counsel to the Nation of Islam.

Today I could drive to the courthouse and legally change my name to Xavier Poodledorf. Tomorrow I could change it back. I don't even need the permission of my male keeper - how's that for western oppression?

[sanwin25]

Now watch the discussion take a sharp turn left.

[shamsery]

Dear Moonchild,
Refer to your post:857
What you please to mean by Muslim Culture? Do you mean Islamic Culture?

[shamsery]

Dear Abu Suleiman:
Please answer the question what is the explanation for the evidence of 1 man & 2 women’s if the 2nd man is not available as per Islamic Law? Explain the holly verse and its background please?

[X-press]

MoonChild, I know that you could keep your family's name if you insist on it, but can you honestly tell me the percentage of women who do that in the West?...2, 5, 10%?? It is very minimum. I can reassure you that in Europe, It will be actually "disrespectful", if not strange, to insist on not taking your husband 's name when getting married.

As for people converting to Islam and changing completely their name to a muslim one, there is no need to elaborate this exemple as this is not the original discussion of this thread.


Originally posted by abu Suleiman
a small right of the christian women lose it in the mintue she gets married with a man that her name.

abu Suleiman, I am sorry to say that when a "christian" women gets married and take her husband's name,
she is absolutely not losing any right whatsoever. It is not something forced to her and it is simply part of the culture or tradition that is all. Actually it is more viewed as an act of love to carry the husband's name and it shows a real unity between two souls.

It is wrong if we view this as a western degradation or as a loss of right; and this change of name has nothing to do with Religion.

[Orion]

This was such a pointless topic... can we have less topics where we are attacking Western culture/Christianity.

Topics like these leave a bad taste in my mouth (and I'm sure quite a few of you).

We should be concentrating on ourselves, our culture our religion and finding ways to develop them wisely and prudently in these fast-moving and difficult times.

So let's do less of the anti-semitic/anti-christian thing. (Anyway, it's haram and unIslamic).

If westerners do attack our religion/culture, verbally or otherwise we should rise above it and passively defend ourselves...

They have their religon and culture and we have ours.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by X-press
[b]MoonChild, I know that you could keep your family's name if you insist on it, but can you honestly tell me the percentage of women who do that in the West?...2, 5, 10%?? It is very minimum. I can reassure you that in Europe, It will be actually "disrespectful", if not strange, to insist on not taking your husband 's name when getting married.


Irrelevent. You originally said that "it is not optional as you said but a must in the west" and it is not.

The original topic is about what is mandatory and/or a "right" and my response is that it is neither mandatory or a loss of rights. Rarity, desirability, or social response is irrelevent.

[X-press]

Completely agree with you that it is not a loss of rights.

When it comes to the first part of this discussion, MoonChild, you say to the members, (who most maybe don't so much about western culture) that it is optional... without adding that it is however out of the norm... My argument is that the amount of people making that choice is extremely minimal and not a 50/50 probability.

I personally have nothing again this tradition ;)

[Najah]

Well sanwin25!
i have some reasons in here that i know about ur question in that 1men euquals 2women!
first..MEn is the one who works -in islamic sociaty-he is the one that suppose to feed his children and wife he has the full responsibility in their life, he should comfort them all! so by then he gets 2 while the women gets 1, cause she stayes at home raising kids she is not forced to go out and work and ring food for the kids and the husband- Women are valuble- he should be the one. this is in the inheriting thing.

Second.. 1 men equals 2 women in vouch thing is because a women is a emotional creature she goes in many diffrent levels like period, being pregnant, homw works, thinking about every single thing in her life kids....etc that loads her to be a very forgetble minde.-i mean she forgets alot because of the periods that she goes through- so they do take 2 to 1.

and please if anyone here can correct my information or help me with some evedince or go0d way please do so!
and sanwin if u r not convinced yet, then noone carez u wont change anything!
2 equals 1 and i love it....
u wana understand it or not up to u man!

[IceTea]

If they lose their virginity then expect them to lose anything after.

[sanwin25]

So women become forgetful when they have their periods ? Hmm, that's a new one. Put it right up there along with the good wing / bad wing on the fly story.

Also, about women staying at home, recent statistice show that in egypt more than 60% of women are the primary bread winner of the family. Now what does that do to your wonderful story ?

[sanwin25]

2 women equal one man ? I bet that was stated by a man !

[Arabian Princess]

It was never 2 women equal to 1!!!
it is a ruling in certain situations only.

The prophet MOhammed peace be upon him was once asked: who should a man love most? he said: your mother. the man asked: whos next? Prophet said: your mother, and the man asked again: then whos next?. The prophet again said: your Mother and then he asked again, the prophet said: Then your father.

mmm SO here a situation where the woman's position is 3 times above the man!

[sanwin25]

The topic is why 1 man's testimony equals 2 womens. Nothing to do with whether you respect your mother or not.

I can say I love my mother more than anything else in this world but then say her testimony is only equal to half a mans. That would show how much I 'really' respect my mother.

Anything to say about women becoming the breadwinners these days ?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by sanwin25
The topic is why 1 man's testimony equals 2 womens. Nothing to do with whether you respect your mother or not.


Are u sure this is main topic, go ahead an read the tiltle again and put your glasses on. And as I said if she lose her virginity which is the most valuble thing the lady got, I don't find it strange to lose her name after or even her complete body, make sense right :)

[sanwin25]

Ok, so you are basically saying you have no answer as to why a woman's testimony is equal to only half a mans ?

Is is because you only believe what you have been taught, never stopping to question why ?

Fair enough, you should have said so earlier, we would have understood.

[Mr Tickle]

perhaps you should ask the question in a separate topic

and then watch them squirm

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
And as I said if she lose her virginity which is the most valuble thing the lady got, I don't find it strange to lose her name after or even her complete body, make sense right :)

LOL.

With that philosopy you'd expect women to be disposible.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by IceTea

if she lose her virginity which is the most valuble thing the lady got, I don't find it strange to lose her name after or even her complete body, make sense right :)

Why is virginity the most valuable thing a woman possesses? I consider my most valuable "things" my heart and my mind - which give me the life-long ability to love, to think, to learn, and to care for myself and my family.

Besides, how could a woman lose all value once she begins the activity that will make her a mother and perpetuate the species?

[Najah]

ya monchild thats why the number of kids without fathers increases there in western countries, thats why they have many arguments about abortions an stuffs!
to valuble ur virgianty makes diffrence moonchild!when a child an inocent one comes to the world when he doesnt know who is his father doesnt knowwho is who!
heh while somtimes the mother her self doesnt know who is the father.... and u keep in mind here i didnt say all! most ok!
or maybe they can help it those days with those new stuffs to protect her from getting pregnant! :eyes:
Thank god for having some good morals.

[sanwin25]

Are you referring to the loss of virginity under all circumstances or the loss of virginity before marriage ?

If the loss is the major disaster then all women would be condemned no matter whether they were married or not.

Now this discussion has taken another interesting turn. The fact that a woman takes her husband's name has been related to the loss of virginity.

Another thing, most muslims I know, their wives take the husband's surname as well. How come ?

[Najah]

huh just like what pino said! ok uperhaps you should ask the question in a separate topic And watch u squirm around !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And who lied to u Mr and said we take our husbands name! be4 replying please make sure of those valuble infos u have my dear!

and betweeeen what are u trying to be smart at man!Are you referring to the loss of virginity under all circumstances or the loss of virginity before marriage ? heheheheheheeehehehe LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL are u trying here to e smarter LOOOOOOOOOOOL such a Question! awenna lost their verginity after marriage hehehehehe..
Man comeon!

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by najah
ya monchild thats why the number of kids without fathers increases there in western countries, thats why they have many arguments about abortions an stuffs!
to valuble ur virgianty makes diffrence moonchild!

That is related much more to a female not valuing HERSELF, than to not valuing her virginity per se. There are a lot of lost people out there... but I'd rather seek the real cause than be content with a simplistic (and wrong) answer.


Interesting topic, but better moved to a new thread :)

[Najah]

o0o0ok i'll give u an idea!
u know what,U open the thread and then u pinno wand and san will discuss about it.....
Cause am sleeepy and my simplosity doesnt match ur Complisty So it seeems that u wont benefit at the same time i wont.

[sanwin25]

Don't know about you Najah and people in Oman but muslim women in India use their husbands surname. And nope, nobody ever felt their were loosing any of their rights by doing so.