The Status of women in former faiths and Dogmas

[Bimzoori]

It is very common in the west to hear debates and read books about the oppression of women in Islam..

What about the status of women in other religions and dogmas? Lets take a look...

Describing the status of Indian women, the Encyclopedia Brittanica states: "In India, subjection was a cardinal principle. Day and night women must be held by their protectors in a state of dependence says Manu. The rule of inhertance was agnatic, descent traced throgh males to the exclusion of females"

And according to the Hindu scripture, a good wife is described as "..a woman whose mind, body and speech are kept in subjection; acquires high renown in this world and, in the next, retains the same abode as her husband"

In Athens, women were not better off than Indian or Roman women: "Athens women were always minors, subject to some male- to their father, to theor brother ot to their male"

Also a Greek woman had no right to consent marriage because: "..she was obliged to submit to the wishe of her parents, and recieve from them her husband and her lord, even though he were a stranger to her"

The Roman were not even better of than those I have mentioned above: "..a babe, a minor, a ward, a person incapable of doing or acting anything according to her own individual taste, a person continually under the tutlage and guardianship of her husband"

**This post was initially posted by ReVeLuTiOnAl^ in the Old Sabla...and since I have access to some old threads, I thought of brining this back :)

[mimosa]

Bimzerooni,

Where's the rest of the thread?

[Wanderer]

So they're no better off than women 2000 years ago?

[Bimzoori]

Originally posted by mimosa
Bimzerooni,

Where's the rest of the thread?

Mim, I just copied/pasted the first post from the original thread...you can re-start your discussion again here :)

[Arabian Princess]

Wanderer,
Islam came to existince 1400 years ago .. and it was the best religion that gave women thier right at that time and forever.

Yes maybe some restrictions on women seems odd tp westerners, but rember that Islam came as a way of life and a moderate religion. WHen it came, it brought rules for women to live in any generation not on a specific perioed.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
Wanderer,
Islam came to existince 1400 years ago .. and it was the best religion that gave women thier right at that time and forever.


I'm not sure about "forever", but I have no problem with an assertion that at one time Islam gave women many more rights than women in other parts of the world (including the west) had at the time.

Do women in KSA now and those under the Taliban have all of their God-given rights ?

[Arabian Princess]

Wandrer, many time we have explained here that what KSA is doing to women is not always what actually Islam ordered us to do.
If they choose to do something away from Allah's teachings its thier own choice and it is thier problem not Islam's problem.

[Wanderer]

Yes, but the "rights" granted from one's religion are easily denied by one's government. My religion lets me fly like a bird and change shapes into different animals. But I never get to actually do it.

And this may have been the case as well for the women you talk about at the top of this thread.

Where are the rights given to women in Islam actually in effect ?
And for how many of the past 1400 years?

[MoonChild]

Wanderer has a good point - the original post has to do with ACTUAL rights enjoyed by or denied to women of various historical cultures (and, in fact, the religous beliefs of these cultures is not addressed).

So the relevant comparison to Islam is what are the ACTUAL rights enjoyed by or denied to women in "Islamic" cultures.

It doesn't really matter what your religion says if the culture doesn't actually practice it, now, does it?

[Arabian Princess]

Ok, now moonchild and wanderer u have to distinguish between culture and religion. WHat saudi does is not done in Oman, neither in many other arab countries, that also does not mean we are following all what Islam tells us .. what we are talking here is about what religion is giving to women not what cultres give to religions.

ok now let me tell what are the woman's basic rights in Islam (they are many but am just highligting the major ones)



she has the right to be provided for by her husband, and she has the right to work if she wanted to. If she worked, the money she earns is totally hers and the husband ahs no right to ask her forcly for it.
She is asked to wear modestly inorder to be protected from men who would be attractive to her looks only without considering her abilities. Covering the face is just a cultural practice not an Islamic one.
Men and women are equal in all deeds they do. If she did a good deed it is counted for her equally if a man did the same deed
she has teh right to accept the person she is marrying or not. If a father forces his wife to marry a man any muslim judge would divorce her from him if she wanted to.
she has the right to own any property she wants, unlike many religions that existed when Islam came


More and more what Islam offered women. Again we are talking about Islam not what is done in Afganistan and Saudi !!! they are influnced by many cultural issues.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
Ok, now moonchild and wanderer u have to distinguish between culture and religion.

And as I said before, this distinction is not made clear in the original post. If you look again you see that Hindu vs. Indian is properly identified as cultural and religious, but the 3 ancient western examples are cultural. In fact, the Greeks (including Athens) and Romans (until about 200AD) were a pagan society with no written scripture to follow. Their Gods and Goddesses were a bunch of scoundrels who served more to highlight the follies of mankind than to provide guidance to mankind!

Personally my interest is:
1.reality of experience - what is the lot of women (or whatever group), really?
2. how does this differ from what is established in the religion?
3. if there is a big difference between what religion dictates and what is actually present in the culture, what does that tell us about that culture?

You have answered #2. We've gotten bits and pieces of answers to #1 about different Islamic countries from other threads and other sources. I would love to have a discussion of #3 :)

[Arabian Princess]

Moonchild,
Well I thought I answerd question three .. but I dont mind attempting to answer it agian :)

Well, I am an Omani, I wear a head scarf but I dont cover my face.
I can drive, I can work, I can go out anytime I want and all this is not aginst my religion!!!!

While in Saudi, women dont drive, if they work it has to be fully isolated from men, education has to be fully isolated by men and they cant go out without a shapron. this comes strongly from thier very strict culture more than the religion!!

I hope I answered u moony :)

[sanwin25]

According to this Sura you are supposed to cover yourself completely.

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent, and to draw their outer garment over their bosoms” [TMQ An-Nur: 31]. "

How do you decide the percentage of coverage ? You say you cover your hair but not your face. What's the basis for your decision ?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
While in Saudi, women dont drive, if they work it has to be fully isolated from men, education has to be fully isolated by men and they cant go out without a shapron. this comes strongly from thier very strict culture more than the religion!!

I hope I answered u moony :)

Aaah - but the interesting question to me is, that it appears to me from what I've read that treating women in this way directly VIOLATES the teachings of the Kuran. So what does it say about this country and culture, that the laws of the government violate their religion? Is this not hypocrisy of the lowest form, to control and subjugate in the name of religion, in a way that violates the spirit and the letter of that religion?

How can I trust the Saudis that they are following Islam in any other way, if they violate it in this instance that I can see?

(before you get angry, I apply the same standards to Catholic priests, Bill Clinton, and everyone else too...)

My interest is not purely in how religion and culture differ, but WHY, what is the true MOTIVATION, and what does what is seen tell me about what is not seen?

[Arabian Princess]

Well Moonchild,
the question you raised is important .. but the answer is verrrry wide and somethign I dont know much about because it is a complicated field.
It starts by saying that Saudis beleive in Wahabi sect. It is mainly a politicized (is thats a word :p) islam. I dont know much about thier sect so i dont want to say something that is wrong.

One more thing, Islam never asks anyone to force anyone to wear anything. If you follow something, you follow it for the sake of ALLAH not to show some people that u are following a ceratin religion. (example of religious police in saudi)