Having Children before Marraige

[IceTea]

Well I have opened this thread based on mimosa request from other thread, to discuss about this issue as I have asked him the following question:

My question
mimosa don't you think that having children before marraige is a silly thing ?

mimosa replay
Open a new thread if you want to discuss another subject - I'm open-minded on the one you mention. My only criteria on having children is that they should have two loving parents whenever possible, and that their parents should know they can support them emotionally and financially before entering into such a committment.

So what do u think all of you about this subject from the moral and religious and society point of view ?

[Don Khaled]

Let's rephrase this to "how does it sound if your mom had sex with many guys and has more children, and not all are registered and stamped". i didn't mean you icetea, i mean the others who believe that it is OKAY to have children before marriage.

did i just use registered? i meant whatever they call it.

[abu Suleiman]

Which muslim could agree to himself to have children before marriage.
This is totally adultry whivh is strictly forbidden in Islam.
I wonder what we need to disccus this topic since we know its haram!!!!!!!.

[Mr Tickle]

how is it adultery?

I thought adultery meant infidelity in a marriage?

[Bimzoori]

So what do u think all of you about this subject from the moral and religious and society point of view ?

from the Islamic point of view

"Islam builds the family on sloid grounds that are capable of providing reasonable continuiuty, true security, and mature intimacy."--Islam in Focus.

Muslim individuals are usually family oriented and seek to establish families of tehir own..there are many passages in the Quran and in the ahadeeth that stress on the importance of marriage, to the extent that when a Muslim marries, he has perfected half of his religion..

In Islam marriage is called "meethaq '3alee'6"--a strong bond..a commitment in which partners find mutial fullfilment, love and peace, comfort and hope, etc..

As it says in the Quran

"And amongst His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy bewteen your (hearts):verily in that are signs for those who reflect" [Quran 30:21]

when a couple get married, they become committed to one another and each become responsible for his/her duties towards the childre, the house and towards one another..

[abu Suleiman]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
how is it adultery?

I thought adultery meant infidelity in a marriage?

So what do u call it Mr pinnochio?

adultery = infidelity

Andwer my question:
Do like to have children from the women that u had made adultery with her then get married afterwards???

[Wanderer]

I think it wiser and better for the children, if people wait until they can manage the commitment of marriage before they commit to making children.

Why? Because by making children you are both unofficially combining and extending the family - the protocol for combining families is marriage. So it should occur first.

[MoonChild]

Adultery describes having sex with someone (not your spouse) when you are married.
So if you have sex before marriage you aren't committing adultery.

[abu Suleiman]

If u r a muslim u will know ther is no diffrence of adultery either before or after marriage.

From where u got this idea?

Dont u know that in Islam if somebody committed sex and he/she is not married he/she should be beaten 100 slashes.
and if he or she is married so should be stoned untill death?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by abu Suleiman
If u r a muslim u will know ther is no diffrence of adultery either before or after marriage.

From where u got this idea?


I gave the standard English dictionary definition of the term "adultery".
No, I'm not Muslim, I'm an American who follows no particular religion but is interested in all of them and how their practitioners live and think.

[Mr Tickle]

100 lashes - what a wonderful religion

adultery can only happen in a marriage

[abu Suleiman]

Moon child, thank you for revealing about yourself.
Adultery in english dic as you have mentioned, but in our culture adultery is adultery either before or after but the punishment is ddifferent.

Pinnochio do I consider last your reply as another disrespect for our religion.

When above punishment was being used between Islamic community ther was very few adulteries and other problems,
But now since ther is no use of Islamic law, as u see many problems in our community.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by abu Suleiman
When above punishment was being used between Islamic community ther was very few adulteries and other problems,
But now since ther is no use of Islamic law, as u see many problems in our community.

Are you saying that it is only fear that keeps Muslims following the laws of Islam ?

Take away the fear of punishment and followers start acting out their wants, dreams, and desires ?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
100 lashes - what a wonderful religion

adultery can only happen in a marriage

Let me ask u a question which one do u prefer:

1. 100 lashes or
2. entering the hell forever.

[SoMe1]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
100 lashes - what a wonderful religion

adultery can only happen in a marriage

Mr. Pinno, let me give you some examples perhaps I shall help in enlighten you some how!

For 400 years after the prophets dearth “when the Islamic law was followed” only FIVE hands where Cut because of stealing!! Imagine 5 hand in 400 years!!!

Look at it now! I heard the other day, that in Oklahoma, some prisoners where released from jail because there was no enough space for others who have robbed, killed, rapped, etc. (the prison is too full to handle more of them) so they had to release some of them who’s crimes where not that bad!!!!!!! Did you know that the American Government spends each year $30,000 on EACH prisoner! loOlz its like having a job! And where do they get the money? From the Tax the Poor American citizen’s pay! So basically its like, a good person who has done nothing has to pay tax for a person who might have robbed, killed or rapped someone from that persons family!!!

Do you call that justice?

In the prophets (PBUH) days, such things never use to happen, because they knew that the punishment was not easy! No one would dare steal, rap, have sex before marriage, etc.

People use to leave their shops open and go and do other things without warring that anything would be robbed! Now even if your in your own shop and you have your cameras all around the shop, you can still be robbed!

What is JUSTICE Pinno?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by SoMe1

What is JUSTICE Pinno?

Make Pino live in Oklahoma.

I've been to Oklahoma. Other than 2-for-1 night at the Red Lace II, I can't remember anything good about it.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer


Are you saying that it is only fear that keeps Muslims following the laws of Islam ?

Take away the fear of punishment and followers start acting out their wants, dreams, and desires ?

True muslim should fear from Allah only, and this fear is one of the things that protects muslims from doing sins. If u are not going to fear from Allah who created u from nothing, your life and death in his hands and fear from his punishment than who are u going to fear from a human being like u ?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea

True muslim should fear from Allah only, and this fear is one of the things that protects muslims from doing sins.

So you don't need to punish those who don't abide the laws of Islam. Allah will do that. What are the earthly laws for?


Originally posted by IceTea

If u are not going to fear from Allah who created u from nothing, your life and death in his hands and fear from his punishment than who are u going to fear from a human being like u ?

Allah did not create me from nothing. You ... who knows.

I am wary of little feverish people. But not afraid.

[SoMe1]

Wanderer, Muslims are divided into many categories, some just hold it as “I am Muslim” some hold it and mean it when they say “I am a Muslim and I practice” Some hold it saying “ I am a Muslim, I practice and I fear Allah”

Not all Muslims fear Allah. Well perhaps they do, but they wont stop doing sins because its easy for any person to commit a sin then doing something good.

Back to the topic, some women don’t even know who might be the father to their children! How many cases are found in the USA it self that the child does not know who is his father? Do you think that is fair on the childes behalf? The boy/girl might fall in love and marry their own brother/sister, if they didn’t know who they really are, and whose children are they? Is that fair? We do need laws to restrict this and know that we shall be punished for it.

Some people do it and get away with in on the earth, that’s why Allah would punish them in the here after, while if you get punished in this life and you have regretted your acts, then Allah would forgive you, and you wont be punished in the here after.

[Mr Tickle]

it must be awful to be terrorised into behaving in a certain way

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
it must be awful to be terrorised into behaving in a certain way

Does anyone else see the irony of this statement coming from a Catholic? :D

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by SoMe1

Back to the topic, some women don’t even know who might be the father to their children! How many cases are found in the USA it self that the child does not know who is his father?

Many. Not the majority, but there are irresponsible people out there making "nameless" babies. I am personally against such behaviour and wouldn't do it myself, but it is up to each individual to act responsibly. My main complaint is when a girl has a baby outside of marriage and then wants the taxpayers to help her pay to raise the child. If you have a baby you can't afford, you should lose the baby to a family who can take care of it.


Originally posted by SoMe1

Do you think that is fair on the childes behalf?

No, not at all. I think it's a terrible thing to do to a child.



Originally posted by SoMe1

The boy/girl might fall in love and marry their own brother/sister, if they didn’t know who they really are, and whose children are they?

Because of how mobile many US citizens are within the country and how we select our spouses, it is extremely rare for siblings to marry here. I'll defer to MoonChild, but I bet it's statistically insignificient. Also, in most states it is even against the law to marry a first cousin ( though I am against such laws).


Originally posted by SoMe1
Some people do it and get away with in on the earth, that’s why Allah would punish them in the here after, while if you get punished in this life and you have regretted your acts, then Allah would forgive you, and you wont be punished in the here after.

Yes, that's the same reason given by the Christian church 300 years ago to burn witches - to save their souls in the next life.

I also believe it's another justification used to torture Muslims into accepting Christ before killing them - after all, it's the soul that's important.

How would you feel if that's the reason a Christian came to kill you for being a good Muslim - so that he can save your soul?

Not very comforting, eh?

[Mr Tickle]

Moony,

fortunately, I am somewhat 'relaxed' in my Catholicism.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
Moony,

fortunately, I am somewhat 'relaxed' in my Catholicism.

Most intelligent people are :)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by MoonChild
Most intelligent people are

Pino too.

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Wanderer

I am even more relaxed than Pinno. I once read that Druze on occasion terminate others so that they may be reborn as Druze.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
Wanderer

I am even more relaxed than Pinno.

Ah, yes. But is that a function of your Philosophy or of the excellent wine produced nearby?


Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir

I once read that Druze on occasion terminate others so that they may be reborn as Druze.

The Amal have regularly volunteered to assist with the first half of that project, though I suspect they wish to obtain a slightly different outcome.

[DorellaM]

Until you are in a person mind and body, then dont judge them. I myself am a single mother of 2 children....and hearing the way you talk about "people like me"....wow...I must be the scum of the earth. It was very wrong of me to bring 2 children into this world without being married, I understand that now...but I did not understand it when I was in love with this man who I thought I was going to marry. Do you people realize the statistics here:


28% of white children grow up without their father
50% of hispanics grow up without their father
80% of blacks grow up without their father


So maybe you should look at the root of the problem and not just the woman who went out searching for any man to get her pregnate so she can live of welfare for the rest of her life, and give people who think their better than others something to talk about.

PS/Thanks to my friends Thug and Seniora for not judging me and giving me encouragement:D

[Wanderer]

What the heck are you complaining about Dorellam ? :weep:

What do you mean you can't believe this discussion ? You yourself state that theres a problem with out-of-wedlock children and you yourself believe it was "very wrong".

So it's worthy of discussion and you shouldn't think you can act all indignant with your "You shouldn't judge me ..." crap.

Save da drama fo yo mama, woman.

Hells bells, nobody cares about you and your situation. You are mature and financially able to have and support your kids, it's your decision. No one here is going to stone you. Some of us just think it's a bad idea. You disagree ?

[DorellaM]

But I would not call it an idea.....I would call it a bad decision.

What I dont agree with is that nobody cares about my situation cause actually there are some people on this board that do care (thanks guys).....and if you are not one of them...not a big loss anyways.

YEs I am mature and financially able to have and support my children.....and I also pay taxes, and am glad that my taxes help pay for others in my situation struggling. If you want to bag on someone how bout the fathers who dont pay child support.....cause taxes for welfare are a direct result of fathers not paying child support......

[Elya'a]

Dorellam, I admire your support and love to your children. But would you like the same thing to happen to them? Its not your fault that their father can not support them or doesn’t really bother about them (if that is the case) but if he really loved them he would have spent the rest of his life with you rather then leaving you as a ingle mother, maybe even if he didn’t want to, it should have been for the sake of the children. What’s the point of having another relation ship with another women and have children from her, then leave her and then with another one etc. how many brothers and sisters would the kids have, and most important they don’t really know their father, perhaps they would never meet their sisters or brothers.

[DorellaM]

This is very true....and it is a very big problem here in America....

No absolutely not ....I would not want my children to be in this same situation. All I can do from here on out is make the best of my situation and abide by God's rules from here on out. You are right....but my question is....why are people so afraid of commitment here??? ......Commitement to even their children??

In my opinion, I believe that people in America have lost the "Fear of God"....nobody here fears God, much less respects God....that is what I think the main problem is. (No disrespect to people who dont believe in God). I would love to hear anyone elses opinion on why this is...

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by dorellam
If you want to bag on someone how bout the fathers who dont pay child support.....cause taxes for welfare are a direct result of fathers not paying child support......

....but my question is....why are people so afraid of commitment here??? ..

I believe that people in America have lost the "Fear of God"....that is what I think the main problem is.



Well, you've managed to turn things a bit upside down.

Why would you make babies (plural) with a man who won't marry you ? Didn't you figure it out after the first one ? Marry first, children next. It's not "fear of commitment" that got you in trouble, it's fear of responsibility - being strong enough to NOT make children with a man who won't commit first.

Taxes for welfare? Welfare is for the children of PARENTS who cannot afford the children they produced. Welfare should be for when there is a disaster and through no fault of their own, the parents are TEMPORARILY unable to care for their children, not as a permanant source of income because of irresponsible adults.

Fear of God in America as the problem? Not at all. It's lack of personal responsibility and common sense. Lack of God in your life didn't make you DO anything. You chose to. So why don't you stop blaming others for your failings - He was bad since he didn't commit, lack of God led to this, etc. You made babies (plural) with a man you didn't adequately know and can't believe he's not living up to YOUR expectations.

How about "I was foolish and made a mistake, nmow I've learned that I have no one to blame but me and I'm going to deal with it".

Guess what, buddy, you're one of those Stats you posted.

Take him to court for child support. What ! He has no job. What the heck were you thinking when you decided to play house with him in the first place?

Quit yer "***** in" and you might just start earning some respect.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Bright Star
Its not your fault that their father can not support them or doesn’t really bother about them (if that is the case) but if he really loved them he would have spent the rest of his life with you rather then leaving you as a ingle mother, maybe even if he didn’t want to, it should have been for the sake of the children.

Can not or will not ? He may be a jeck, but the mother is responsible as well to ensure that the children will be cared for.

Part of that is ensuring that the man wants teh children and a family.

Step 1 - get married.

[DorellaM]

Who am I blaming?? I am not blaming God or the father of my children. It was a 50/50 thing.....Youll notice that in my previous post I stated my opinion, cause that is what I believe.....

Your stating things here like what you believe is fact and thats that. Hey everyone has their own beliefs here and everyones allowed to state their OPINION. Its obvious that we have completely different ways of seeing things. But it would be wrong of me to argue with you about what you believe and try to force my beliefs on you right??


Quit yer "***** in" and you might just start earning some respect.

Im not sure you know the meaning of this word respect.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by dorellam
Im not sure you know the meaning of this word respect.

I know it's earned and not acheived through whining or demanding it.

I know that women who respect themselves don't shack up and make babies with a man who is unwilling to support and nurture them. Then blame the man for not changing into what the woman wanted.

I know that people who respect themselves accept responsibility for their actions.

I know that people who respect their society don't ignore its guidelines and then demand society take care of the mess they find themselves in.

I know that people who respect children and the awesome responsibility of raising them don't just pop out a few and let them grow up "fatherless", cause they were too impatient to do all of teh work necessary to create a family life.

Dorellam, I've done some rotten things in my life. I've been drunken, broke a few hearts, shoplifted (stole). You know who I blame - me. I was wrong and I don't/wouldn't do those things again. I accept full responsibility for my bad decisions - it wasn't that the beer was cheap and all my friends "made" me drink, or that the girl was easy and had no business expecting a relationship, or that the shopkeeper should have been more careful and besides they charge too much. Personal responsibility.

If you had just said "hey, you guys are describing who I WAS, but now I am ... ", nobody would be looking down at you. It's the excuses that mark you.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by dorellam
Who am I blaming?? It was a 50/50 thing.....

No, it was up to you to do the right thing. You could have prevented it.

In the same way that if 2 people rob a store, each is fully guilty of robbing the store - not half guilty.

[DorellaM]

Ok wanderer you win....

[Wanderer]

Dorellam,

No one thinks you are a rotten person. Raising kids as a single mother is very difficult - well, I've dated a few single mothers and married a divorced mother - I know it's difficult. The father should be ashamed for not taking responsibility and dumping it all on you. He should provide what he can - financial, time, etc. Once he starts helping his children he can stop being ashamed of his behaviour.

It seems to me that we might even agree that it's better to be married before making children (though even marriages can end in divorce and seperate children from their parents), and for both parents to be concerned about what's best for their children.

:cool: