View Full Version : The "christian" Allah
melnotts
24-05-09, 11:28 PM
A Catholic church in Malaysia which prays to Allah has prompted a court case over who can use the word.
Muslim leaders say Islam should be the only faith to use it, saying its use in other faiths could lead to confusion and conversions.
Robin Brant reports from Kuala Lumpur.
Click the link for more info:cute:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8065597.stm
What do you think?
Should the name "Allah" be only restricted to the Muslim faith?
I think those guys went overboard. They shud allow the use of word Allah in other faiths. It might help others to see the truth
I don't know.
But it does indeed lead to confusion sometimes. I know Christians in my home country who use the name Allah, and sometimes I wonder if they're Christians or Muslims, even though I know that they're Christians. They use terms like "masha'allah", "al-hamdulillah", "wallah", etc... If you use such terms, I think you should first believe in Allah, so people can know that you mean what you're saying, no?
The odd thing is that "Allah" is simply how you say "God" in many Semitic languages, whether you are Christian or Muslim.
That's how you say God is Maltese for example.
I don't know how you say God in Malay, but I suspect it's "Allah". So how are Malay-speaking Christians supposed to pray?
The odd thing is that "Allah" is simply how you say "God" in many Semitic languages, whether you are Christian or Muslim.
That's how you say God is Maltese for example.
I don't know how you say God in Malay, but I suspect it's "Allah". So how are Malay-speaking Christians supposed to pray?
Exactly, plus it refers to the same God whether u are Muslim or Christian
Here is Wikipedia on the subject:
Allah (Arabic: الله, Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".
So when I go to my friend's Melkite Catholic Church, where Lebanese worship in Arabic, they call God "Allah". That's how you say God in Arabic.
Telling an Arab Christian not to say the word "Allah" when he prays is like telling me not to say the word "God" when I pray.
The only proper answer is: "Who do you think you are?" :p
Exactly, plus it refers to the same God whether u are Muslim or Christian
Thanks for the support!
I think if Christians tried to support Muslims when Christians were being unjust to them and Muslims tried to support Christians when Muslims were being unjust to them, the world would be a much better place...
The odd thing is that "Allah" is simply how you say "God" in many Semitic languages, whether you are Christian or Muslim.
That's how you say God is Maltese for example.
I don't know how you say God in Malay, but I suspect it's "Allah". So how are Malay-speaking Christians supposed to pray?
I thought Arab Christians always called God "ar'rab" (الرب) and not "Allah".
Rambotan
25-05-09, 12:03 AM
i dont get it first time to hear the word melkite what does that mean?
Russo_turisto
25-05-09, 12:11 AM
Thanks for the support!
I think if Christians tried to support Muslims when Christians were being unjust to them and Muslims tried to support Christians when Muslims were being unjust to them, the world would be a much better place...
huh? Come again?:think: didn't get it:p
I wonder too how Christian Arabs manage to address God (Al-Lah) when it's only Muslims' prerogative to say this word. :rolleyes:
God is One. I wish these Malaysians got a life instead of useless fighting where is whose God. :no:
If I want, I can address God with the name Yahweh or יהוה or Adonai, I can even use all of 99 Islamic names of God at a time and it won't change anything at all cuz God will know that I'm addressing Him if He wishes.
How stupid and childish.:yell:
melnotts
25-05-09, 12:31 AM
I think if Christians tried to support Muslims when Christians were being unjust to them and Muslims tried to support Christians when Muslims were being unjust to them, the world would be a much better place...
I agree:yes:
I think the Malaysian Muslims overreacted on the issue.
Actually we should be glad that our religion has an impact on others:)
To me, it is really interesting and I was so happy to see that some non Muslims are believing in the same god and come closer to literally call him Allah. It shows how much we are in common in spite of our ritual differences.
minerva
25-05-09, 01:10 AM
Alla is God in Maltese. without the H sound at the end.
marianna
25-05-09, 03:59 AM
In spanish we say O'ala which sounds like oh'allah which means God willing.
I thought Arab Christians always called God "ar'rab" (الرب) and not "Allah".
Well, Christians sometimes speak of "God" and sometimes of "the Lord". These are alternative names or titles that one finds in the Bible.
"Ar'rab" means "the Lord". But the translation of "God" is "Allah".
But my own experience with Lebanese worship and what my Arab Christian friends tell me, as well as the Wikipedia article says above show that "Allah" is the Arabic Christian word for "God".
I've heard it myself in church many times.
What isn't clear from this news story is that it is not just "a church" that "used" the name "Allah" to mean "God".
It's that ALL Malay Christians have ALWAYS used the word "Allah" to mean "God".
If you find an eighty year old Malay Christian woman, she will have learned her prayers from the time she was three and all her life been praying to Allah. All her books, all her Bibles, all her church experience....everything in her religious life...would have used this word again and again.
Millions of times. And her children. And her granchildren. And all her relatives and friends. And everyone in every church she ever went to.
What the Malaysian government is attempting to do is to completely change the Christian language of prayer for Malays. You think they will succeed? Of course not. All the will succeed in doing is making life miserable for some people for a while.
Here is a photo of an old Malay Christian Bible. You can see in the second sentence it says "Firman itu bersamasama Allah, dan Firman itu sama dengan Allah"; "the Word was with God and the Word was God."
http://www.worldscriptures.org/john1-jpgs/malay.jpg
http://www.worldscriptures.org/pages/malay.html
Here is how ALL Malay Catholics have ALWAYS begun their Rosaries:
"Saya percaya pada Allah Bapa yang maha berkuasa"
"I believe in God the Father almighty"
http://www.marysrosaries.com/Malay_prayers.html
I don't think the Malaysian government is out to get Christians. I think they just don't KNOW how their Christian neighbors pray in Malay. So when somebody started this case, it just took on a life of its own.
Of course not. Jesus (PBUH) himself referred to God with a name almost like Allah. Jesus didn't speak English, remember?!
Alla is God in Maltese. without the H sound at the end.
Can you imagine.. a faith that came after ours telling US not to use the word Alla, because it's "theirs".
Alla jbierek!
(God bless)
Jessus is not Allah.
No one is claiming that Jesus and Allah are the same word, El rey.
In my language, the word Jesus is Gesu'. The word for our God is Alla. The word for any other god, like Zeus is alla. Just like you guys have two similar words for each, we have the same word, but one is with a capital letter, indicating he is our Lord, God.
And to those who don't like it I say, 'Well tough. Get used to it, cos that ain't changing."
Am not saying Christians shouldn't say it cos it appears from the previous posts here that Allah exists even before Islam referring to God. But when a muslim hears the word Allah s/he immediately knows it means God and only God. Now if a muslim has some knowledge in Christianity which is Jesus is God. So whenever he hears this word from a Christian it seems that Jesus is Allah which is so confusing.
But it may not be the word which is confusing but the whole trinity concept which is carrying this confusion to the meaning of word Allah.
It really doesnt matter... Especially from the Christians and Jews after all we all do worship Allah (God in Arabic).
I see no harm in it!
What do you think?
Should the name "Allah" be only restricted to the Muslim faith?
What is this all about? "Allah" or "Alla" or any word that sounds the same will always refer to God and as far as it goes to me I don't care who use it, its for God who are we to talk for God and say that only Muslim can use the word "Allah".
NO, It should not be restricted to the Muslim faith. :yell:
I think it even brings us together with other believers who are not Muslim we share the word then we have the same God its what we believe in that's different...
It's all in the head.
Theres only one anyway. Call him what you like, me thinks.
PS: Malaysia is becoming more of a circus every passing day.
minerva
25-05-09, 01:01 PM
Can you imagine.. a faith that came after ours telling US not to use the word Alla, because it's "theirs".
Alla jbierek!
(God bless)
mhux hekk nibqghu (as if we're gonna be like that)
anyway, goes to show how stupid and ridiculous some countries can be. malaysia should really try to shove noodles down its absolute poverty stricken people first before telling christians what to call God, God would defintely be pleased.
Funny thing is, Christian Arabs (which existed before muslims) call God: Allah. In some countries, the H is silent.
Gets you confused, whether to laugh or feel sorry for such Muslims.
Think I'll copyright that name and collect royaltys everytime it is used :rolleyes:
This would be no different than what these freaks are saying!
maybe they are muslims nd christants ?
Russo_turisto
25-05-09, 04:27 PM
what about the deity called Allah in Jaheeliyya Arab religion?
That, if I am not mistaken, was from what remained of Prophet Ishamel (son of Ibrahim/Abraham) teachings, Pagan Arab religion was a blend of many religions.
I am sorry but this is a bit silly, its like forbidding me to say "mother" cause it may cause confusion to others. Everyone is free to call his God by whatever his religion deems appropriate.
sweet life_rose
26-05-09, 10:15 PM
in their prayers Christians say Alla without knowing what it means exactly.
Here is "Allaloya!!!" please Jeff correct me if am wrong
It's not an-english word n christianity originally from middle-east as all know, so if you analyise it, it's close to meaning in arabic Allah Al-3ali or al 3olya
emmm so if they ment Allah is the one created the world it's ok I guess"don't depend on my say am not mufti", and not the one ment god to them as Jiseus "3alyeh el salam= respectful Islamic greeting for prophets"
Wish they find out the truth before time is over "end of world".
Wish they find out the truth before time is over "end of world".
And they only have what, three years?
melnotts
26-05-09, 11:14 PM
^^^3 years of what?
Russo_turisto
26-05-09, 11:14 PM
in their prayers Christians say Alla without knowing what it means exactly.
Here is "Allaloya!!!" please Jeff correct me if am wrong
It's not an-english word n christianity originally from middle-east as all know, so if you analyise it, it's close to meaning in arabic Allah Al-3ali or al 3olya
emmm so if they ment Allah is the one created the world it's ok I guess"don't depend on my say am not mufti", and not the one ment god to them as Jiseus "3alyeh el salam= respectful Islamic greeting for prophets"
Wish they find out the truth before time is over "end of world".
omg.....:XD:
the Arabic word Allah is just the straight translation of English 'GOD'. Don't try to hinder its meaning and make something mysterious out of it please. It's crystal clear.
Christians don't actually mean Jesus PBUH when they pray to God. They basically mean the One True God of Abraham PBUH.
ok they better explained it to you themselves. xD
melnotts
26-05-09, 11:17 PM
omg.....:XD:
the Arabic word Allah is just the straight translation of English 'GOD'. Don't try to hinder its meaning and make something mysterious out of it please. It's crystal clear.
xD
Well, actually, the direct translation of God in Arabic is not Allah but Rab رب
Allah is only referred to the creator Himself, Which, in our case, our rab (God) is Allah.
Russo_turisto
26-05-09, 11:18 PM
Christian God is the Creator. So is Ours.
Ask Jeff.
Even if Christian prayers begin with 'let's pray to Our Lord (Rab) Jesus Christ'...
it doesn't prove anything.
^^^3 years of what?
The world ends in three years: http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1325425&postcount=1
melnotts
26-05-09, 11:22 PM
^^^ Yeah, I got some Christians explaining it to me. Some whom have hard times with the concept of trinity.
But I was only pointing out the Arabic meaning of God.
melnotts
26-05-09, 11:24 PM
The world ends in three years: http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1325425&postcount=1
please Markov, don't bring me all these unfounded prophecies. It just can't end in three years, I still haven't enjoyed my life and not married yet.
^^^ Yeah, I got some Christians explaining it to me. Some whom have hard times with the concept of trinity. .
I have noticed most of the ones I met have no idea what trinity is, but they were taught to abide by the church. They have strong faith though
Well, actually, the direct translation of God in Arabic is not Allah but Rab رب
Allah is only referred to the creator Himself, Which, in our case, our rab (God) is Allah.
If you look at any Arabic Bible, you will find God translated "Allah" and Lord translated "Rab".
That's just how it works.
Or in any Christian prayer in Arabic that uses the word "God" you will find "Allah".
For example, the native Catholics in Lebanon are the Melkites. They worship in Arabic.
Here is a section from the US website.
They explain what "Holy God" is. Here is what they say:
Holy God is a Holy Trinity of Three Persons while remaining One in essence
And how do you translate "Holy God" in that sense?
Look at the top of the page:
"Holy God - Quddouson Allah"
http://www.mliles.com/melkite/holygod.shtml
Here's how you write the beginning of the Bible in Arabic..."In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1: 1.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/ABIB-01.GIF
One of the great titles of Mary in the Christian faith is Theotokos, Mother [or (child-)Bearer] of God.
How do Christians say Mother of God in Arabic?
والدة الله Walidat Allah or waalidat ul-Illah
Here is the whole prayer as prayed by Arab Christians:
"al-salaamu 3layki ya maryam. yaa mumtali'atu ni3ma. al-rabbu ma3ki. mubaarakatun enti fiy nisaa'. wamubaarakatun thamaratu baTniki.
yaa qadiysa(tu) maryam. yaa waalidat ul-ilaah. Salliy li-'ajlinaa naHnu al-khaTaa. al-'aana wafiy saa3ati-mawtinaa. 'aamiyn."
السلام عليك يا مريم - يا ممتلئة نعمة - الرب معك - مباركة انت في النساء - ومباركة ثمرة بطنك يسوع - يا قديسة مريم - يا والدة الله - صلي لأجلنا نحن الخطاة - الآن وفي ساعة موتنا. آمين
"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/322201/Hail%20Marys
So, the Arabic word for God is the same for Muslims and for Christians: Allah.
melnotts
27-05-09, 01:26 AM
jeff interesting,
But really not convincing, because even in the Quran, it differentiates between Allah and Rab (GOD).
and I am not arguing against the Christians use of the word Allah. I know they do use it. It does mean in Arabic our rab (God) when used by Muslims and Christians to denote our almighty. But the same word can't be used to describe another (rab) God such as the god of those people who warship fire.
Which only goes to prove my point that we do not worship the same God.
melnotts
27-05-09, 01:43 AM
^^^ Good on you. You finally reached there.
But I believe we are worshipping the same almighty god.
jeff interesting,
But really not convincing, because even in the Quran, it differentiates between Allah and Rab (GOD).
and I am not arguing against the Christians use of the word Allah. I know they do use it. It does mean in Arabic our rab (God). But the same word can't be used to describe another (rab) God such as the god of those people who warship fire.
Well, etymologies and linguistic comparisons are always imperfect. There is always room for interpretation.
When you say "Arabic", you mean, I think "Arabic as we Muslims are used to using it."
But before Mohammed appeared on the scene, Christian Arabs were using the word "Allah" to mean "God" and the word "Rab" to mean "Lord".
And in Arabic too, "Rab" also means a great man, an owner of property, like "Lord" in English.
But like with "Allah", in English usage there is only one God.
So that is why all Arab Christians have always used the words that way. That's why they never thought of translating "God" with "Rab", but they always translated "Lord" with "Rab" as in "Lord Jesus" which in Arabic is "Rab Yasu" (Arab Christians do not use the name "Issa".)
If you ask an Arabic speaking Christian or Jew or Yezidi or Mandean how to translate the word "God" into "Arabic" and they will all tell you it's "Allah".
And ask Maltese people too, whose language is essentially a dialect of Arabic written in Roman letters (though our Maltese here will probably throw things at me for saying that...)
melnotts
27-05-09, 02:01 AM
Jeff dear,
You said it yourself, the word rab in Arabic has many meanings such as the father who cares for his family (rab al osra= father of the family), means the one supporting and caring for the family. therefore, it is not right in Arabic language to translate rab to Allah.The Christians do that, though, for reasons of clarity for people who might mix the god of Muslims with the Christians one.
As you said, rab can be translated into lord but not Allah. In the bible quote you brought in your previous post. rab was translated Lord and Allah to god, which proves my point which is to avoid confusion.
Jeff dear,
You said it yourself, the word rab in Arabic has many meanings such as the father who cares for his family (rab al osra= father of the family), means the one supporting and caring for the family. therefore, it is not right in Arabic language to translate rab to Allah.The Christians do that, though, for reasons of clarity for people who might mix the god of Muslims with the Christians one.
As you said, rab can be translated into lord but not Allah. In the bible quote you brought in your previous post. rab was translated Lord and Allah to god, which proves my point which is to avoid confusion.
No, no. You're not getting me.
I'm not saying you don't have a point. You do have a point.
All I'm saying is that "by common consent", as they say, they way to translate "God" into Arabic is "Allah", not "rab".
You can argue with that if you like. And you can make some interesting points because languages never correspond word for word perfectly.
Now what evidence do I have that it is generally accepted that the way to translate "God" into Arabic is: "Allah"?
1. General reference works say so:
For example, Wikipedia quotes the most revered and respected encyclopedia of all time--Britannica--like this:
"Allah (Arabic: الله, Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
2. Muslims agree with this, for example:
Allah (Arabic: اﷲ, Allāh) is the standard Arabic word for "God", derived from al-ilah, the God.
http://www.4islam.com/Allah.shtml
3. Arabic is part of the Semitic family of languages. Other ancient Semitic languages use very similar words for God, found long before Mohammed. And Muslims agree with this also:
The Aramaic word for God is alôh-ô (Syriac dialect) or elâhâ (Biblical dialect), which comes from the same Proto-Semitic word (*'ilâh-) as the Arabic
http://www.4islam.com/Allah.shtml
4. Before the advent of Mohammed, Arabs used the word "Allah" to translate the word "God". That's why Christian and Jewish Arabs do so today.
5. Today, when the Bible is translated into Arabic--even by Muslims--the translators translate the word rendered into English as "God" with the Arabic word "Allah".
Therefore, "by common consent" the normal translation of the word "God" into Arabic is "Allah".
How kind of the muslim world to allow us to use the word Allah.
marianna
27-05-09, 04:49 AM
Personally I don't think anyone has a monopoly on what God is called......The human language, despite it's intricacies has vast similarities................
melnotts
27-05-09, 05:16 AM
How kind of the muslim world to allow us to use the word Allah.
You are welcome dear:angel:
melnotts
27-05-09, 05:28 AM
Jeff, I break into two parts once and for all:
Arabic Language:
Allah is one. The one we as Muslims worship. It is the one that the Christians and Jews refer to.
Rab (God) is a term used to describe the one people worship, be it Allah, Buddha or Fire.
The term has other meanings in Arabic too which I mentioned.
Translation From and To Arabic:
Allah IS translated from Arabic as God and God from other languages to Allah. This is an appropriate translation. However, it is not right!
Appropriate because the translators always consider the culture and connetations to which the word is translated.
It will be very odd for Arabs (whether Muslims or Christians) to hear the word Allah being ascribed to Buddha or Fire. No way, it is just not right in the Language of Arabic.
Please don't come and refer back again to me the translated work, because I tell you again, translators consider the people whom the language is translated to. I can't just leave the word Allah untranslated into English, because some people won't understand and never heard of the word.
To Arabic, God is translated to Allah, not because it is the right translation, but people are sensitive when you for example pray for rab (God) without instead of acknowledging that god is Allah.
In movies, the word Jesus is often translated into Allah. Does it mean that Jesus is Allah? of course not. But it is the appropriate translation considering the Arab culture.
In conclusion, In Arabic language Allah and rab (god) are two different things.
This is the basis of my argument with Russo as he thought rab in Arabic is the same as Allah which is not. However, you brought the topic into different paths (translation) and our fellow readers are confused now.
Jihad4Truth
27-05-09, 08:47 AM
Oh my Allah!
Oh my Allah!
hahahaha That's funny, cos you sound like a maltese person who's being silly, switching between both our languages.
In maltese it would be..
O Alla tieghi!
And Jeff, here is Hail Mary in maltese.. (the j is pronounced as a y and the gh is silent.)
Sliem ghalik Marija, bil-grazzja mimlijja, il-Mulej mieghek. Imbierka inti fost in-nisa u imbierek il-frott tal-guf tieghek, Gesu'.
Qaddisa omm Alla, itlob ghalina midinbin, issa u fis-siegha tal-mewt taghhna. Amen.
Lord in maltese is Sid. Our Lord = Sidna.
When sid is written in capital letter at the front, it means The Lord, God. Not just any lord.
Also, arabic has another word for other gods. Like Zeus, for example. And it's ery close to Allah. Like illah.. or something. It is recited in the verse, "There is no god except God."
Russo_turisto
27-05-09, 01:23 PM
Also, arabic has another word for other gods. Like Zeus, for example. And it's ery close to Allah. Like illah.. or something. It is recited in the verse, "There is no god except God."
:yes: yeah it would be interesting to analyse the first part of Shahadat in lexico-grammatical terms.
"La ilahi ila Llahu..<...>"
"No deity except God", right?
so it seems that the Muslim concept of Allah derived through the Jahileeyya/pagan name of one of gods from the word meaning just..."THE (one) Deity". But initially it meant just 'deity'.
compare to Yahweh, Ilu, El and what not. All of them Semitic words probably meaning just 'God'.
Is it so or...?:mmhmm:
illah means god
Allah means God.
hahahaha That's funny, cos you sound like a maltese person who's being silly, switching between both our languages.
In maltese it would be..
O Alla tieghi!
And Jeff, here is Hail Mary in maltese.. (the j is pronounced as a y and the gh is silent.)
Sliem ghalik Marija, bil-grazzja mimlijja, il-Mulej mieghek. Imbierka inti fost in-nisa u imbierek il-frott tal-guf tieghek, Gesu'.
Qaddisa omm Alla, itlob ghalina midinbin, issa u fis-siegha tal-mewt taghhna. Amen.
Lord in maltese is Sid. Our Lord = Sidna.
When sid is written in capital letter at the front, it means The Lord, God. Not just any lord.
Now that seems very similar to egyptian/shami accent :p
Whats the difference between God and god ?
For Muslims for example, a god is any god, man made god, what other beliefs view as God, like some people consider cows as gods
God is what that certain belief (Muslims in this case) view as God.
There is no god = illah ( as in not Buddha, not bagwan, not bajer) but God.
As usual wudjab, you're trying to reach a certain point, so lets get it over with.
Russo_turisto
27-05-09, 04:00 PM
which point is wudjab trying to reach?:think:
any deity in a polytheist religion is a god/goddess.
If there's only one God, like in Islam or Christianity, then he's the God with the definite article and the capital G.
For Muslims for example, a god is any god, man made god, what other beliefs view as God, like some people consider cows as gods
God is what that certain belief (Muslims in this case) view as God.
There is no god = illah ( as in not Buddha, not bagwan, not bajer) but God.
As usual wudjab, you're trying to reach a certain point, so lets get it over with.
You need to turn down your paranoia meter a notch, it seems to be working in overdrive.
Your statement that there's a difference between God and god was one of the strangest I have ever seen from you.
God is God, whether you think of God as an Almighty presence, or represented by the sun moon or stars.
Jihad4Truth
27-05-09, 06:12 PM
hahahaha That's funny, cos you sound like a maltese person who's being silly, switching between both our languages.
In maltese it would be..
O Alla tieghi!
I have been reading your wall comments in Maltese. I am a fast learner.
As for this: I can see in the next few years millions of Arab & Muslim teens saying, "Like OMA!!! Oh my Allah!"
Christian God is the Creator. So is Ours.
Ask Jeff.
Even if Christian prayers begin with 'let's pray to Our Lord (Rab) Jesus Christ'...
it doesn't prove anything.
It proves that they pray to a human being. Because Jesus PBUH is a man and not God. :)
Russo_turisto
27-05-09, 09:24 PM
IceTea, please, not again...
You need to turn down your paranoia meter a notch, it seems to be working in overdrive.
Your statement that there's a difference between God and god was one of the strangest I have ever seen from you.
God is God, whether you think of God as an Almighty presence, or represented by the sun moon or stars.
Hahaha can you blame me? You never ask to get an answer :p
Regarding the difference, well that's how I come to understand it. I think it is how the difference between God & god represented in the Bible as well.
It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.
"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171)
It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.
"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171)
Well, the fact of the matter is that Christian Arabs were calling God "Allah" before Mohammed walked the earth or the Quran appeared. "Allah" has been worshipped in Arabic speaking Christian churches for 2000 years.
As far as gender, I can't speak to the Arabic grammatical question but I know that Allah is called "He" in Arabic.
In Aramaic, it is usually "Eloi" or "Elohim", which is a related cognate. Aramaic speaking believers would identify God's NAME as "YHWH".
The long and short of it, I guess, is that neither the word "Allah" nor Allah Himself belong to Muslims and you can't forbid the use of the term by those who have been using it for hundreds or thousands of years.
The attempt to do so will fail through ridiculousness and unenforceability. But along the way, it will cause grief and misery to lots of perfectly innocent people.
um_amira
04-06-09, 08:26 AM
My high school was catholic and when they did prayers they would say " thank jesus .."and continue with the prayer then they wuld say for our muslim friend's " thank allah... "
I dont mind it - bil 3aks ( opposite?) i feel good that they didnt foget us, muslim friends :p
Well, the fact of the matter is that Christian Arabs were calling God "Allah" before Mohammed walked the earth or the Quran appeared. "Allah" has been worshipped in Arabic speaking Christian churches for 2000 years.
The issue is were they worshipping Allah as defind by surat al-Ikhlas or not:
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
If they don't believe in that then they are not worshipping the true Allah.
I agree :yes: Aramaic was before Arabic and Jesus came before Mohammed PBUH.
People should call their God with whatever name they choose thats a very private thing between a person and his God.
The issue is were they worshipping Allah as defind by surat al-Ikhlas or not:
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
If they don't believe in that then they are not worshipping the true Allah.
1, 2, 4 no Christian has problems with. We also assert that there is only One God and no other; that He is eternal and self-subsistent; that He is unique and incomparable.
I think you are wrong about 3. The Quran says this is how God is. It doesn't say that anyone who disagrees is not worshipping God.
You get the same argument in reverse sometimes from some Christians. They say, "Muslims don't understand that God is a Trinity and they specifically renounce the idea. Therefore, their Allah is not the true God but just some kind of lying demon."
But I think that's silly. Muslims may be mistake about some important aspects of God or misunderstand some things about His nature, but they are worshipping the one and only Creator. As we do also.
There is a difference between "being wrong about God" and "worshipping the wrong God".
In any case, when the Quran speaks about begetting, I think it's doing so in a literal sense. Because it says it's impossible for God to have a Son, since He has no female consort.
THAT kind of begetting no Christian believes in.
The message is clear in the following verses:
72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."
77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
The message is clear in the following verses:
Well, that's a related issue. But it's not the same issue.
Anyway, we don't say God is Jesus. We say Jesus is God.
If you say Jesus = God, then it is same as God = Jesus.
minerva
06-06-09, 11:24 AM
If you say Jesus = God, then it is same as God = Jesus.
in your little head.
You mean that's not right?
Russo_turisto
06-06-09, 12:01 PM
omg lol the so-called discussion is taking its old hackeneyed course :rolleyes:
in your little head.
Don't you say that God became man (Jesus).
That means God is Jesus and Jesus is God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
minerva
06-06-09, 02:16 PM
yawn yeah whatever.
Soulless
06-06-09, 02:19 PM
^ i wish if you can just give a clear explaination instead of saying random replies. =)
minerva
06-06-09, 02:28 PM
there are lots of clear explainations, have you read them. use the search facilities. if they haven't worked, a new reply saying the same thing over and over again will not work. ==)
It's as clear as a clear sky on a sunny day.
The problem is that you are dense.
If you say Jesus = God, then it is same as God = Jesus.
"Is" is not the same as "equals".
If I say, "a square is a rectangle", it's true.
If I say, "a rectangle is a square", it's false.
You can't just reverse copula phrases like that.
You can't say, "Joe is happy, therefore happy is Joe".
It doesn't make sense.
We agree that Jesus is truly man. Right?
You can say "Jesus is Man". But you can't say "Man is Jesus."
And you can't do that trick with "Jesus is God" either.
.. and then his head exploded...
:D
You can say "Jesus is Man". But you can't say "Man is Jesus."
In arabic you can say that.
And I think even in english it is correct.
so if you say God became man (Jesus) then it is like saying God is Jesus and Jesus is God.
minerva
06-06-09, 10:43 PM
It's as clear as a clear sky on a sunny day.
The problem is that you are dense.
as a bucket of ****
um i mean...concrete...
ShorrtY
06-06-09, 11:28 PM
How can it be restricted when it is the translation of the word god in any other lang
In arabic you can say that.
And I think even in english it is correct.
so if you say God became man (Jesus) then it is like saying God is Jesus and Jesus is God.
You can say Jesus is Man, but you can't point to just "a man" and say that's Jesus.
I don't think you can do that in Arabic.
And I don't believe that in Arabic you can say a rectangle is a square.
"Jesus is God" is not a statement of equivalency. It's a statement of identity. Those are different things.
Every Christian believes that "There are Three Persons in One God". But no Christian believes that, "There are Three Persons in One Jesus".
"Jesus is God" is not the same as "Jesus = God".
You could say, Ice Tea, that the word "is" is a very simple word.
But it is very subtle and deep and full of meaning.
Just like God Himself.
And that's no accident, as we would explain it.
"Is" is a form of the word "to be": Being.
And God's very Name is: Being Itself.
God is the One Who truly and absolutely Is.
"Go and tell the people of Israel that "I AM" has sent you."
Soulless
07-06-09, 01:16 AM
Edited ...................
DarK PrincesS
07-06-09, 02:10 AM
Sliem ghalik Marija, bil-grazzja mimlijja, il-Mulej mieghek. Imbierka inti fost in-nisa u imbierek il-frott tal-guf tieghek, Gesu'.
Qaddisa omm Alla, itlob ghalina midinbin, issa u fis-siegha tal-mewt taghhna. Amen.
:D that was very similar to our accent, it's beautiful!
My point is just:
If someone wants to know why modern scientists believe in all these confusing contradictions, they can. They can understand it, even if they don't believe it.
And if someone wants to understand the Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ, they can. They can understand it, even if they don't believe it.
For either one, though, if you prefer not to bother, no sweat! :p
The way I understand it is God have the power to be Whatever He Wants. He can be one, two three or even thousands. He's the Almighty God. So Jesus is God the son who's also God the father. He's the holy spirit in a man's body.
I may believe this if am not a muslim and Allah Himself told is that Jesus is just a prophet. Not a son not a holy spirit not the father.
Besides, I saw some contradictions in this ( In my perspictive ) and that's if they are all the same why did Jesus spoke to God before he's cruxified ? This makes them more than one.
And other stuff too
I forgot to say:
This is very interesting point as well
jesus dies in the cross , and he was praying to god who is him self god who is in heaven who is also on earth , how can jesus be praying to
god on the cross if in fact he is god in human form ? *never mind still funny*
:yes:
I mean really that post makes lots of sense
My point is just:
If someone wants to know why modern scientists believe in all these confusing contradictions, they can. They can understand it, even if they don't believe it.
And if someone wants to understand the Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ, they can. They can understand it, even if they don't believe it.
For either one, though, if you prefer not to bother, no sweat! :p
Did Jesus say directly that he is God ? Without hinting or indirect statement. Cos In Quran Allah always says that He's the only God and no God but Him.
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 12:03 PM
this thread gradually degraded from what it was initially dedicated to to discussing the Trinity concept.
The problem is that Jesus, according to Christian tradition, is not exactly equal to the God of Abraham. He's the Son of God and Son of Man at the same time, weird as it seems, and it makes him inferior to his Heavenly Father and dependent on His (God's) will. In that sense Jesus is just like any other human. But God acts through him, and all his Biblical miracles are done on behalf of God and by His will alone.
So I don't think that the idea of God the Jesus crucified talking to 'himself' the Heavenly God and being in Heaven and on the cross at the same time should be understood literally. Here we see Jesus as a human being so he's not talking to himself, he's addressing (the One) God.:)
I'm not very sure but perhaps there are some similarities between the way Christians see Jesus and the way Shi'a Muslims treat Imam Ali. Correct me if I'm wrong. In fact, both confessions made a person a deity. No insult/offence meant here.
Very interesting Russo and Jesus adressing God before he's crucified and God acting through him ( Miracles ) doesn't make jesus PBUH but a prophet.
I too see it the same way. Shia sect ( not all ) in viewing Ali RAA and christians viewing Jesus PBUH are similar.
Shia gave Ali RAA almost the rank of a prophet.. And christians gave the prophet Issa PBUH the rank of God.
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 12:20 PM
^^ I'm not sure if Shi'a view Imam Ali as just a prophet. I daresay it's even more (or more complicated) cuz they add an additional Sura called "Two stars" or something...
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 12:51 PM
Number 115, Al-Nurain. It's absent in the Sunni Qur'an. I'll try find the English translation.
Lol I never knew there is a Sunni quran
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 12:59 PM
Neither did I. there you go
"O you who believe, believe in the two lights.
He has revealed them unto you, warning you against the torture of the Great Day -- two lights emanating from one another, for I am the All-Hearing and the All-Knowing.
Truly those who fulfill Allah's pledge and his Apostle's verses shall be rewarded with Paradise.
Those who disbelieve by breaking their covenant and what they have pledged to do before the Apostle shall be thrown into hell, for they did injustice to themselves and disobeyed the supporter of the Apostle.
Therefore, they shall be caused to drink from the Hamim River in hell.
Truly Allah is the light of heaven and the earth as he wills, and he has chosen his angels and apostles and made believers of those whom he created.
All do whatever he wills. There is no god but him -- the Merciful and the Compassionate.
Those who came before them cheated their apostles, and so I have stricken them with my cunningness vehemently and painfully.
O Apostle! Preach my admonition, for they shall know.
Those who fulfill their pledge to you are likened to me to be rewarded by Paradise.
Truly Ali is one of the pious. We have sent Moses and Aaron, being appointed his successor, yet they disobeyed Aaron.
Be of good patience! They will become old. We have given you judgment, just as we did to other apostles before you. We have appointed a guardian to you from them, that they might return.
Truly Ali is devout, lying prostrate at night, warning as regards the Last Day, and hoping for the mercy of his Lord.
Say: "Should those who act unjustly be treated equally, while they know my torture?"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/nurain.html
Do I even have to read that? I don't even think all shia believe in this.
No wonder that link is blocked by Omantel lol
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 01:08 PM
lol, I can see that Omantel is a very strict company. :p
Did Jesus say directly that he is God ? Without hinting or indirect statement. Cos In Quran Allah always says that He's the only God and no God but Him.
Jesus almost never speaks directly. He expects that those who love Him and listen to him will understand Him. Those who don't want to can remain in the dark.
So Jesus speaks in parables, He uses stories to teach that obscure His meaning.
And when Philip asks Jesus to see the Father, JESUS EXPECTS HIM TO KNOW WHO HE IS ALREADY, WITHOUT BEING TOLD: "Philip, you have been all this time with Me and you still do not know Who I am?"
I'm limited to short answers with you. So I will stop there! :p
NOW YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE , now you understand like i do how much sense it makes ... so you have no excuse for not being a Christian and you know the whole trinity thing. go on and support jeff and Wudjab :D:D
ya right :rolleyes:
You can say Jesus is Man, but you can't point to just "a man" and say that's Jesus.
I don't think you can do that in Arabic.
And I don't believe that in Arabic you can say a rectangle is a square.
"Jesus is God" is not a statement of equivalency. It's a statement of identity. Those are different things.
Every Christian believes that "There are Three Persons in One God". But no Christian believes that, "There are Three Persons in One Jesus".
"Jesus is God" is not the same as "Jesus = God".
In arabic you can say Omar is a man and you can also say a man is Omar, unless you can prove me wrong.
And this rectangle/square argument is invalid and not related to the discussion. So I'm afraid you have to drop it.
Why saying "Jesus is God" is not same as saying "Jesus = God", don't you believe that God became man and this man is Jesus, so actually according to your belief God is Jesus which same as Jesus is God, they are one right?
Jesus almost never speaks directly. He expects that those who love Him and listen to him will understand Him. Those who don't want to can remain in the dark.
So Jesus speaks in parables, He uses stories to teach that obscure His meaning.
And when Philip asks Jesus to see the Father, JESUS EXPECTS HIM TO KNOW WHO HE IS ALREADY, WITHOUT BEING TOLD: "Philip, you have been all this time with Me and you still do not know Who I am?"
I'm limited to short answers with you. So I will stop there! :p
So Jesus didn't say that he's God. So where did he being God come from? :os
And he saying : "Philip, you have been all this time with Me and you still do not know Who I am?"
This doesn't mean he's God. This can mean many things. Like Philip don't you believe me that am a prophet and I speak for God?
If he's really God he won't hint for others and won't speak indirectly to them about being God. He will just say it directly. I am God, just like in the quran.
And keep the short posts please xD
Number 115, Al-Nurain. It's absent in the Sunni Qur'an. I'll try find the English translation.
Did I read that correctly ?
1. There is a 'Sunni Quran" ?
2. It has a verse missing ?
:think:
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 05:57 PM
If you ask me, it's quite vice versa. There's an additional Sura made up by the Shi'a. So there's a Shi'a version of the Qur'an different from what the majority believe it is.
but who am I to judge... God knows best.
So Jesus didn't say that he's God. So where did he being God come from? :os
And he saying : "Philip, you have been all this time with Me and you still do not know Who I am?"
This doesn't mean he's God. This can mean many things. Like Philip don't you believe me that am a prophet and I speak for God?
If he's really God he won't hint for others and won't speak indirectly to them about being God. He will just say it directly. I am God, just like in the quran.
And keep the short posts please xD
That's not the way the conversation goes, El Rey.
Philip says: "Show us the Father."
Jesus says: "You have been with Me all this time and you still you don't know Who I am? Whoever sees Me sees the Father....the Father and I are One."
Could you wrap yourself in circles coming up with some other explanation? Maybe.
But if you say to me, "Jeff, show me God" and I respond, "You still don't know Who I am? Whoever sees Me sees God", well, the implication is pretty straightforward.
I guess I have to stop there and I can't answer your other questions... :p
If you ask me, it's quite vice versa. There's an additional Sura made up by the Shi'a. So there's a Shi'a version of the Qur'an different from what the majority believe it is.
but who am I to judge... God knows best.
So there is disagreement about what is in the Quran? I saw a mention of this somewhere.
That's not the way the conversation goes, El Rey.
Philip says: "Show us the Father."
Jesus says: "You have been with Me all this time and you still you don't know Who I am? Whoever sees Me sees the Father....the Father and I are One."
Could you wrap yourself in circles coming up with some other explanation? Maybe.
But if you say to me, "Jeff, show me God" and I respond, "You still don't know Who I am? Whoever sees Me sees God", well, the implication is pretty straightforward.
I guess I have to stop there and I can't answer your other questions... :p
My question is why didn't Jesus say directly that he's God? Why in all of his life never mentioned himself being God? It's like he was afraid to say it directly, right?
In arabic you can say Omar is a man and you can also say a man is Omar, unless you can prove me wrong.
And this rectangle/square argument is invalid and not related to the discussion. So I'm afraid you have to drop it.
Why saying "Jesus is God" is not same as saying "Jesus = God", don't you believe that God became man and this man is Jesus, so actually according to your belief God is Jesus which same as Jesus is God, they are one right?
Maybe you are talking about word order or something.
But in no language is it true that you can do a simple reversal.
You can't say "John is a policeman. Therefore a policeman is John."
Because Ted might be a policeman also.
So, look: John is a policeman. Ted is a policeman. Therefore, Ted is John.
That's nonsense.
The terms "God" and "Jesus" are not coextensive. "Jesus" means God the Son in human form. Only God the Son in Human Form. God the Holy Spirit isn't Jesus.
So you can't turn the formulation around.
It's EXACTLY like the square--rectangle sentence that you don't like.
A square is a rectangle: True.
A rectangle is a square: False.
Jesus is God: True.
God is Jesus: False.
Russo_turisto
07-06-09, 09:42 PM
So there is disagreement about what is in the Quran? I saw a mention of this somewhere.
There's a bit more to it than just plain disagreement.
Thinking logically... let's assume that Shi'a made up/forged a Sura or even a greater part of the Qur'an and twisted the Word of God as they wanted to make Imam Ali look like a deity for political or any other reasons.
The question is whether the Sunnis didn't do this too in the early days of Islam. The Sunnis' point of view is that the additional Sura and other Shi'a thingies and rites are not exactly right, but who said the Qur'an that Sunnis themselves use is authentic?
There was a discussion recently about the authenticity of the current Qur'an version so I don't want to bring it back.
Ice Tea is gonna kill me.
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