World demographics

[hijabi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

What ya think?

[Jeff]

Funny, I just watched that a day or two ago!

I think in many ways it's obviously true.

But I don't think that we can see how all the other possibilities of the future converge.

For one thing, Muslim fertility rates are ALSO falling. Drastically in places like Azerbaijan or Bosnia, semi-drastically in places like Iran, not drastically at all in places like Iraq...but still trending downwards....

And among Muslims in the West, population growth trends more downward with each generation that lives in the West. Immigrants have more babies, their children have fewer, THEIR children have fewer etc.

There is also the sad possibility of conflicts that can arise as population rates change dramatically...which affect things.

And there are changes among Muslims themselves...both in their attitudes as members of Western societies and in their attitudes once they have lived under radical Islamic regimes like the Iranian one. The number of ex-Muslims, disenchanted and non-practicing Muslims, modernistic Muslims, etc., that I find here in America among Iranians is surprisingly large.

So, I think the statistics are true and in the short term worrying, especially for Europeans. But I think Muslim immigration to America is a GOOD thing and I don't fear that ultimately it will result in the Islamization of the world.

And even if it does, ultimately, it doesn't matter... :p

[Russo_turisto]

I think I will miss good old Europe as it is today. I will miss freedom and diversity.

[BrAiKi]

Not all Muslims are like you think they are, russo. Freedom and diversity might still exist with Muslims around.
The video made me laugh though!

[Jeff]

The real disaster, hijabi, has nothing to do with Muslims or anything else like that.

It simply has to do with what can be called "population implosion", a rush of disappearing people like air out of a balloon.

Population implosion is like population explosion but in the other direction. It's also geometric rather than arithmetic, so the further on it goes, the faster it proceeds.

Think about it: Pakistanis are nicer than Germans in all sorts of ways perhaps. But if you suddenly replaced the population of Germany with an equal number of Pashtuns and Punjabis, what would happen? Their skills and their ways of relating to the world--their social habits--would be quite different. The society wouldn't function at all. It would grind to a halt.

As the rush of depopulation picks up steam, there simply won't be anything like the people needed to run things...no time to train them, no time to help them adjust. No matter how much they might want to. And of course, they don't always want to.

Do you know that there are whole towns in East Germany now where they have had to replace the sewers? Yes, the sewers stopped working: they were too big. It seems that if you have large sewer pipes, you need a minimum number of people to be flushing their toilets and using their sinks. Otherwise the stuff won't flush through the pipes. It just sits there.

This is but one tiny indication, one small fringe problem, that points the way to what Europe--and perhaps the world--will soon be facing. Social disintegration.

[Russo_turisto]

Not all Muslims are like you think they are, russo. Freedom and diversity might still exist with Muslims around.
The video made me laugh though!

Did I say anything about Muslims? I thought my post was about Europe.:hmm:

Braiki, it's not about religion. It's all about culture and outlook on life that is gonna change drastically when conventional Islam (as it is more than just religion) overthrows other philosophies and ways of living in Europe. European civilization is dying out like dinosaurs, that's evident. Thy are digging their own grave...

Knowing the history of Muslims conquering Constantinople and converting it to Istanbul, I'm not sure if someday the Notre Dame de Paris or St Paul's or Savior on Blood cathedrals won't be turned into mosques.

God forbid. There's so much heritage about them.

[Russo_turisto]

Think about it: Pakistanis are nicer than Germans in all sorts of ways perhaps.
What makes you so sure?:rolleyes:
:hyper:

[IceTea]

when conventional Islam (as it is more than just religion) overthrows other philosophies and ways of living in Europe. .

I don't know why you have negative ideas about Islam knowing that all the teachings of Islam are for the best of humanity. Is it not stated in the holy Quran that Prophet Mohammed PBUH was sent as a mercy to ALL mankind?

Maybe you can tell us what philosophies and ways of living you don't agree with when it comes to Islam?

[IceTea]

What ya think?

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ


It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâm), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) hate (it).

[Jeff]

I don't know why you have negative ideas about Islam knowing that all the teachings of Islam are for the best of humanity. Is it not stated in the holy Quran that Prophet Mohammed PBUH was sent as a mercy to ALL mankind?

Maybe you can tell us what philosophies and ways of living you don't agree with when it comes to Islam?

Maybe he is not talking about Islam but rather about Muslims. Many Muslims in the West say Islam is better off in the United States and can be lived better here than in most countries in the Middle East...

[El Rey]

In 50 years we will see Europe and America as Islamic states and the christians will live in Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia

halalooyah :hyper:

[Russo_turisto]

lol Jeff, you're advocating me before Tea again. "maybe he is.." you may end up the :6:'s advocate that way :p

actually I meant that Islam as a philosophy needs to show more compassion and eagerness to interact with other cultures. I have strong fear that, brought to Europe, it will simply overwhelm existing liberal outlooks and cultures that bear those outlooks.

[IceTea]

Islam is the religion of justice, so don't worry.

And it is meant to be the religion for all mankind. But many people know not.

[Russo_turisto]

^^ aha. so all kaffirs should either be converted or slain.

that was the logic that made Turks massacre Armenians.

[Jeff]

lol Jeff, you're advocating me before Tea again. "maybe he is.." you may end up the :6:'s advocate that way :p

actually I meant that Islam as a philosophy needs to show more compassion and eagerness to interact with other cultures. I have strong fear that, brought to Europe, it will simply overwhelm existing liberal outlooks and cultures that bear those outlooks.


Islam is the religion of justice, so don't worry.

And it is meant to be the religion for all mankind. But many people know not.


^^ aha. so all kaffirs should either be converted or slain.

that was the logic that made Turks massacre Armenians.

Well, Russo, what I'm getting out of all this--and tell me if I'm wrong--is that you are saying this:

~There are good things about European civilization that should be preserved
~Islamic principles should and could encourage those things, as well as bring in good correctives that Europe needs
~However, in practice, Islam as it is lived in Muslim countries today has some severe deficits
~So there is reason to think that Europe has something to lose if these trends continue.

In other words, an Islamic Europe guided by Russo or Threadlike principles might be a wonderful thing. But an Islamic Europe guided by Ice Tea or Clouds attitudes will be a disaster. For everyone including Muslims.

Now: is that it or did I get part of it wrong?

[IceTea]

Russo, there is no compulsion in religion.

[Mr Tickle]

there is no compulsion in religion.

as long as you are ok with your family never talking to you again

or your friends talking to you again

or that you may be killed for Apostasy

or that you not a Muslim woman marrying a Kuffar

or that you don't live in a country where it is illegal to be converted by another religion

but hey, let's not bring Islam into this

[Russo_turisto]

Well, Russo, what I'm getting out of all this--and tell me if I'm wrong--is that you are saying this:

~There are good things about European civilization that should be preserved
~Islamic principles should and could encourage those things, as well as bring in good correctives that Europe needs
~However, in practice, Islam as it is lived in Muslim countries today has some severe deficits
~So there is reason to think that Europe has something to lose if these trends continue.

In other words, an Islamic Europe guided by Russo or Threadlike principles might be a wonderful thing. But an Islamic Europe guided by Ice Tea or Clouds attitudes will be a disaster. For everyone including Muslims.

Now: is that it or did I get part of it wrong?

Very true for the bolded part.:yes: but... uhm I believe anyone's attitude can be changed, personality doesn't matter. I firmly believe IceTea is a very devout Muslim, much better than myself but so far I don't see him caring too much about Non-Muslim population of Europe that is gonna suffer, I underline it, suffer Islamisation pretty soon. Unless the Islam of the future will be enlightened (as it was in its early days when Islamic science such as medicine and maths flourished) and not narrow-minded, Europe will learn its hard lessons as the main result of it.



Russo, there is no compulsion in religion.

Yeps. "Lā 'Ikrāha Fī Ad-Dīni".. so what? My post is about something entirely different.

[Reluctant]

lol Jeff, you're advocating me before Tea again. "maybe he is.." you may end up the :6:'s advocate that way :p

actually I meant that Islam as a philosophy needs to show more compassion and eagerness to interact with other cultures. I have strong fear that, brought to Europe, it will simply overwhelm existing liberal outlooks and cultures that bear those outlooks.

Care to explain what this means? Islam as a "philosophy?" Surely, you mean Muslims, and not Islam, right? I think you have intellectual hangups with Islam because you lack understanding of it. I have seen way more posts from you that are critical of Islam than those that express admiration and confidence in it as the truth. So, I think you need to explain yourself. I apologize if I have the wrong impression. No offense intended, but I know that Islam has the tools, more than any other religion, to function in the modern world and adapt to the changes in the world today. This is one of the things that I see as a proof of Islam's truth, and I have written about this in several of my posts. However, your attitude is strange for a Muslim. InshaAllah it is because you lack knowledge, which I think it is. So, I would like you to explain what you mean here, because I don't see Islam as limiting in any way. I don't feel that I can give you salaam at this point in time, because your attitudes, whether intended or not, come across as critical of Islam, not in the cultural ways Muslims might practice it, but in and of the religion itself. So, inshaAllah would like to know what you're talking about and why you feel this way. One should be able to rationally explain, lay out, and justify the beliefs they hold, so I look forward to your clarification and rationale, inshaAllah.

[Russo_turisto]

Care to explain what this means? Islam as a "philosophy?" Surely, you mean Muslims, and not Islam, right? I think you have intellectual hangups with Islam because you lack understanding of it. I have seen way more posts from you that are critical of Islam than those that express admiration and confidence in it as the truth. So, I think you need to explain yourself. I apologize if I have the wrong impression. No offense intended, but I know that Islam has the tools, more than any other religion, to function in the modern world and adapt to the changes in the world today. This is one of the things that I see as a proof of Islam's truth, and I have written about this in several of my posts. However, your attitude is strange for a Muslim. InshaAllah it is because you lack knowledge, which I think it is. So, I would like you to explain what you mean here, because I don't see Islam as limiting in any way. I don't feel that I can give you salaam at this point in time, because your attitudes, whether intended or not, come across as critical of Islam, not in the cultural ways Muslims might practice it, but in and of the religion itself. So, inshaAllah would like to know what you're talking about and why you feel this way. One should be able to rationally explain, lay out, and justify the beliefs they hold, so I look forward to your clarification and rationale, inshaAllah.

I really couldn't care less if you consider my posts weird. I firmly believe one's religion depends on one's own views that might me different from the conventional ones and that depend on various things.

I can't speak for all Muslims. I don't deny them being tolerant and eager to interact. But Islam currently is the religion that is most exposed to extreme ways, that shock the Western community.

In other words, I'm afraid of having a new Taliban or anything of the kind in Europe someday.

Moreover, Muslims should never forget that they are guests to Europe so they must pay due respect to European customs.

[Reluctant]

I never said your posts are "weird." Is your contention with Islam itself, or is it with the actions of Muslims? You seem to go back and forth or combine the two. It seems that you can't differentiate between the two, and that's why you even brought up some of the things in your post. The very fact that you brought up the Taliban means that you are not focusing and learning enough about the religion itself. I study Islam everyday and think about it and contemplate it a lot, but I can tell you I don't ever think about the Taliban, and it plays no part in how I understand or relate to Islam or envision its ideal role in and relationship to the world. So, if this is what you think about as a Muslim and how Islam is to be lived and applied, your head is in the wrong place. Honestly I feel offended intellectually and as a Muslim that you would even say such a word in a reply to a question I asked purely about your attitudes toward Islam as a religion and frankly it shows that either your interest in Islam lies more in culture than faith, or you have a seriously mistaken view of what the religion is.

I don't know a lot, but I have studied Islam and feel that I have a grasp on the objectives and context of the religion, understand the continuities and changes both in terms of its original context of the religious duties and stipulations and how the basis of these have remained the same or changed today, and understand how Islam has the built-in tools through its jurisprudential methodology and worldview to step up to the challenges and realities of today's world in ways that other religions do not. I have written about this in many posts, but all I see is you disparaging the religion. So, I want to know on what grounds you disparage it and what exactly you are discontent with. Does it lie in the actions of Muslims, the religious teachings themselves, or your perception of what the religion teaches? The very fact that you said:

"I can't speak for all Muslims. I don't deny them being tolerant and eager to interact. But Islam currently is the religion that is most exposed to extreme ways, that shock the Western community,"

Is extremely strange for a Muslim to say. Especially as a convert, as I would have thought you would have undertaken a comparative study of religion before coming to believe whatever you do and then once you believe, think in terms of the religion itself. As a Muslim, this sounds like an incredibly foreign thing to say. You seem disconnected from Islam on every level. Either base your views on the basis of the primary textual sources of the religion itself or not at all. What exactly is your prerogative? Your posts come across as hostile towards Islam on many levels, so I'm just curious as to what the basis of this perception is. Thank you.

[Jeff]

baaith this is the old battle between the systematic orthodox and the intuitive heterodox, between those who say "this is a whole systematic truth" and those who say "I feel the truth powerfully here and I embrace this thing, but *I* get to say which parts make sense to me and which don't".

I remember one born Muslim here saying that she didn't care about the validity or non-validity of al-Qaeda's Islamic arguments: that wasn't what she was raised to believe Islam was and if that WAS Islam, she wasn't a Muslim.

[IceTea]

Very true for the bolded part.:yes: but... uhm I believe anyone's attitude can be changed, personality doesn't matter. I firmly believe IceTea is a very devout Muslim, much better than myself but so far I don't see him caring too much about Non-Muslim population of Europe that is gonna suffer, I underline it, suffer Islamisation pretty soon. Unless the Islam of the future will be enlightened (as it was in its early days when Islamic science such as medicine and maths flourished) and not narrow-minded, Europe will learn its hard lessons as the main result of it.

So who is narrow-minded, Muslims or Islam?

And why Non-Muslim population in Europe will suffer by the spread of Islam?




Yeps. "Lā 'Ikrāha Fī Ad-Dīni".. so what? My post is about something entirely different.

It is not different, it was a reply to your comment:



aha. so all kaffirs should either be converted or slain.

And you are a convert yourself, who asked you to choose between convert or slain?

[IceTea]

Is extremely strange for a Muslim to say. Especially as a convert, as I would have thought you would have undertaken a comparative study of religion before coming to believe whatever you do and then once you believe, think in terms of the religion itself. As a Muslim, this sounds like an incredibly foreign thing to say. You seem disconnected from Islam on every level. Either base your views on the basis of the primary textual sources of the religion itself or not at all. What exactly is your prerogative? Your posts come across as hostile towards Islam on many levels, so I'm just curious as to what the basis of this perception is. Thank you.

Fully agree with you on that analysis and looking forward for his clarifications.

[amo_l_oman]

Islam as a philosophy needs to show more compassion and eagerness to interact with other cultures.

Have you ever opened a book on tafseer or just a chapter in Riyad us Saliheen ?



Unless the Islam of the future will be enlightened (as it was in its early days when Islamic science such as medicine and maths flourished) and not narrow-minded, Europe will learn its hard lessons as the main result of it.Where do you find exactly the narrow-minded part in Islam, pray tell ?


I really couldn't care less if you consider my posts weird.Is it Islam forcing you to address another human being [a brother] in such unpolite way or is RT who is not following Islamic teachings for some reason ?

[J'adore]

Not all Muslims are like you think they are, russo. Freedom and diversity might still exist with Muslims around.
The video made me laugh though!

The video made me laugh as well! ;p


So we're taking over the world you say? Don't mind that at all. ;)

[Soulless]

taking over the world with fake Islamic dogma , half of the new generation wont inherit the true Islamic ways , we might dominate the world but only by the name of Islam with out following its teachings.

funny video i must say tbh.

[Russo_turisto]

Where do you find exactly the narrow-minded part in Islam, pray tell ?



So who is narrow-minded, Muslims or Islam?


:hyper: you prefer to jump at my posts and dragging words and expressions from it overlooking their context instead of sticking to the topic. you got so defensive and you even didn't care to read my post properly enough.

okay once again: I sincerely hope Islam of the future Europe will be different in that way that Muslims will appreciate living there, will preserve the original cultures of the region, will attend the issues of cultural/religious diversity, secular education etc. the way that the nowadays Europeans treat it, AND,
on the other hand,
I hope that Muslims won't dismantle cultural and religious places /oppress the original population of Europe. I hope there'll never be anything like religious conflicts initiated by Muslims at least in Central/Western Europe.

Terrorist organizations like Taliban prefer growing beards and forbidding women to go to schools over giving Muslims anything similar to secular education. They want everyone to believe that religion can replace anything. This is the narrow-minded kind of Islam that was brought up by people's misunderstanding of the religion and I don't know what else, perhaps bigotry. I don't want it in Europe. No thanks.

amo stop attacking me, i said nothing offensive to neither baa7ith nor tea.

to baa7ith: again, I don't care for what is considered strange or not strange for a Muslim. please note that my aim is Islam not interacting with Muslims. Actually I try to avoid certain types of Muslims as I find some of their ideas shocking and my state law finds them illegal.:cute:

please read about Hegel's dialectics or I don't know what, perhaps you'll find out that truth is not in the extremes, but rather in between.


hope I made myself clear.
cheers all:cute:

[amo_l_oman]

am not attacking you
stop playing the victim role and don't dare to tell me what I must write or not
And if you think that am attacking you, mind that I will do til you stop throwing trash on Islam



Terrorist organizations like Taliban prefer growing beards and forbidding women to go to schools over giving Muslims anything similar to secular education.

And where is Islam here ?
I am sure you don't know because as others noticed, you know little about Islam
Growing beards is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet saws [whatever I order to do, do as much as possible and whatever I prohibit, then refrain from it ] and preventing girls from having access to education is part of a cultural habit that some Muslims try to justify through a wrong interpretation of Islamic texts
Wrong interpretation of the texts and too much concentration on written rules leaving aside the whole : that's the problem with Muslims, not with Islam
That's where we need reforms : within ourselves


my aim is Islam not interacting with Muslims

Your real friends are no less than Allah, His Messenger, and the fellowship of believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly in worship.


They want everyone to believe that religion can replace anything. This is the narrow-minded kind of Islam that was brought up by people's misunderstanding of the religion and I don't know what else, perhaps bigotry. I don't want it in Europe. No thanks.



RT, I don't know who taught you Islam, but I'd like to remind you that you didn't embrace only a religion, also a way of life
Islam covers all the aspects of our life from spiritual to social to political
If you had understood this, you'd stop being arrogant and rude
The fact that Talibans practice a wrong version of Islam is something
But if you're saying that you find disturbing to apply religion to the way you talk and act, then am afraid you converted to the wrong belief
No one in Europe wants to impose Islam to others [at least not those who collaborate with local governments in matters of integration] but it's necessary to have a mutual exchange and this is being done, gradually but surely
Europe is not like Russia : this narrow-minded version of Islam will never gain ground


you prefer to jump at my posts and dragging words and expressions from it overlooking their context instead of sticking to the topic. you got so defensive and you even didn't care to read my post properly enough.


We very well read your posts and we all understood in the same way
So if it walks like a duck ...
The problem is that as soon one argues with the concepts you express, you immediately change your views which is perfectly fine but it's dishonest to state that you maintained the same line
Seriously RT, you can't pick something because you want to change it
If you don't like Islam [and I don't think so, the only issue here is that you never opened a book to study it Knowing history and adapting it to your views, is not enough and is not fair], just leave it
We're in a crucial moment when our religion needs to be reformed, changing some literalist interpretations of the texts and keeping what's good been done til now
We don't need chaps who give us lesson on secularism and education
We need people who are solid in their way of thinking and committed to our deen

[melnotts]

I never said your posts are "weird." Is your contention with Islam itself, or is it with the actions of Muslims? You seem to go back and forth or combine the two. It seems that you can't differentiate between the two, and that's why you even brought up some of the things in your post. The very fact that you brought up the Taliban means that you are not focusing and learning enough about the religion itself. I study Islam everyday and think about it and contemplate it a lot, but I can tell you I don't ever think about the Taliban, and it plays no part in how I understand or relate to Islam or envision its ideal role in and relationship to the world. So, if this is what you think about as a Muslim and how Islam is to be lived and applied, your head is in the wrong place. Honestly I feel offended intellectually and as a Muslim that you would even say such a word in a reply to a question I asked purely about your attitudes toward Islam as a religion and frankly it shows that either your interest in Islam lies more in culture than faith, or you have a seriously mistaken view of what the religion is.

I don't know a lot, but I have studied Islam and feel that I have a grasp on the objectives and context of the religion, understand the continuities and changes both in terms of its original context of the religious duties and stipulations and how the basis of these have remained the same or changed today, and understand how Islam has the built-in tools through its jurisprudential methodology and worldview to step up to the challenges and realities of today's world in ways that other religions do not. I have written about this in many posts, but all I see is you disparaging the religion. So, I want to know on what grounds you disparage it and what exactly you are discontent with. Does it lie in the actions of Muslims, the religious teachings themselves, or your perception of what the religion teaches? The very fact that you said:

"I can't speak for all Muslims. I don't deny them being tolerant and eager to interact. But Islam currently is the religion that is most exposed to extreme ways, that shock the Western community,"

Is extremely strange for a Muslim to say. Especially as a convert, as I would have thought you would have undertaken a comparative study of religion before coming to believe whatever you do and then once you believe, think in terms of the religion itself. As a Muslim, this sounds like an incredibly foreign thing to say. You seem disconnected from Islam on every level. Either base your views on the basis of the primary textual sources of the religion itself or not at all. What exactly is your prerogative? Your posts come across as hostile towards Islam on many levels, so I'm just curious as to what the basis of this perception is. Thank you.


I admire brother the way you come to understand Islam. I acknowledge, i once misunderstood you and thought you are taking it too much. Your deep-knowledge of Islam has made you way much better than most of us. Your arguments are convencing and you have thorough analysis of Islam and its current status in the world. I applaud you.

[Russo_turisto]

And if you think that am attacking you, mind that I will do til you stop throwing trash on Islam

Europe is not like Russia : this narrow-minded version of Islam will never gain ground

We're in a crucial moment when our religion needs to be reformed, changing some literalist interpretations of the texts and keeping what's good been done til now


:hyper: I'm not throwing anything at Islam. well, I must say, whatever floats your boat. you're on my ignore list from now on.

I hope it won't gain any ground.And it's high time for Islam to be reformed.

[Russo_turisto]

RT, I don't know who taught you Islam, but I'd like to remind you that you didn't embrace only a religion, also a way of life
Islam covers all the aspects of our life from spiritual to social to political


I embraced a religion, not a political system. I want to stay the way I am but believe in One God, is it impossible that way?

Too bad.

[amo_l_oman]

I want to stay the way I am but believe in One God, is it impossible that way?


You are Muslim
You should know what it means in Islam to believe in one God


I embraced a religion, not a political system


You are not living in a Muslim country but in a country that allows you to practice your religion
You must respect the laws of land and their political system


I'm not throwing anything at Islam

You're picking some parts of Islam and rejecting others
That's not how it works in our religion


it's high time for Islam to be reformed.

Reform is not as you see it : changing everything because it doesn't fit your lifestyle but going back to the sources and reinterpreting those which apparently do not fit into today's life, not because it's Islam fault but because we were misled while interpreting them

[Russo_turisto]

^^ so it means I should give up secular studies of the Western philosophy and change it for the Arabic scholars of Islam or what? If Islam is a complete system, not just religion?

"all you have to change is everything you are.."

[Jeff]

Isn't it pretty obvious what Russo is getting at?

What will an Islamicized Europe look like?

Suppose it looks like Taliban Pakistan.

It will be more Islamic in one sense of the word than it is now.

But will it be a better or worse place?

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf once pointed out that it is easier and better in some ways to live as a Muslim in America than in many Muslim countries.

Now: if Europe became Muslim IN THE MANNER OF THOSE MUSLIM COUNTRIES THAT HAMZA IS POINTING TO, it would be "more Islamic" in one way, right? But it would be worse for everyone including Muslims, wouldn't it?

What I got out of it was not that he was saying that this will NECESSARILY be true. But that he fears that it may be true.

So how is this a theological attack on Islam?

[wudjab]

Wow, thats an awful lot of hate being directed towards Russo by his fellow muslim converts.

Apparently an open mind and free thinking are not appreciated in some circles.

If I may summarize, I think that Russo is saying the following :

He hopes that Europe has lots of Muslims.

He fears Europe will turn into Saudi Arabia with European muslims.

[amo_l_oman]

.
So how is this a theological attack on Islam?

There's no attack because he has no idea of what he's talking about
He just knows that he converted to Islam because it's the religion of the oneness of God which makes much more sense than other religions and that's enough for him
But if one asks him to elaborate on the meaning of worshipping one God he fails, because he denies all that is related to it
This is not a trial to him, anyway
All I can do is to pray for all of us

Back to the topic, I don't see how Europe can become a Talibanistan
It's a place with huge history and culture that are not under threat because it has strong roots and solid economy [hoping the crisis will pass soon]
Europe is not a colony from which everybody wanted to take advantage
The process of integration can and must take place, keeping in mind that European Muslims in the future will be born and raised there, aware of the fact that they must obey to the law of land and to those parts of Islamic law which can be adapted to the situation
They are citizens with rights and duties so they must give and take

[wudjab]

All the London train bombers were European born muslims.

Putting paid to your fantasy that being born into the culture makes a difference.

[Jeff]

There's no attack because he has no idea of what he's talking about
He just knows that he converted to Islam because it's the religion of the oneness of God which makes much more sense than other religions and that's enough for him
But if one asks him to elaborate on the meaning of worshipping one God he fails, because he denies all that is related to it
This is not a trial to him, anyway
All I can do is to pray for all of us

Back to the topic, I don't see how Europe can become a Talibanistan
It's a place with huge history and culture that are not under threat because it has strong roots and solid economy [hoping the crisis will pass soon]
Europe is not a colony from which everybody wanted to take advantage
The process of integration can and must take place, keeping in mind that European Muslims in the future will be born and raised there, aware of the fact that they must obey to the law of land and to those parts of Islamic law which can be adapted to the situation
They are citizens with rights and duties so they must give and take

I don't think he denies all that is related to it!

He believes in the prophet Mohammed. He believes in and studies the Quran. He follows the ethical and moral and ritual requirements.

But he does have some doubts about certain aspects of the way the religion is understood.

He prefers keeping a skeptical mind about some aspects to being systematic. So he feels free to think, "There are problems in here SOMEWHERE, I'm not sure exactly where and with what. But somewhere..."

And instead of PM members and saying, "I agree with you, but I can't say it publicly", he just says: "This is what I think or feel or sense." He'll say, "I am a Muslim. I see a lot of intolerance and viciousness in Historical Islam. And in how many Muslims understand Islam. I don't know what to do with that. I don't know where the problem is, exactly. But I'm not too worried about it. I'll just say what I think. I didn't become a Muslim because I was a scholar. I became a Muslim because the religion struck me as the most beautiful and the most true and so I was convinced it was the right one."

[Russo_turisto]

thanks Jeff, but I feel it's not worth the hassle. I've had my own motives for converting that amo has no idea of just as she has no idea of the real life in Russia, taking into account that she's a fan of the United Russia party. But oh well. Errare humanum est.

amo, I'd ask you to restrain yourself from commenting on my personality. I can always elaborate my views myself if I feel that I need to.

Oh and don't DARE to say 'DON'T DARE' to me ever again. You're no mother to me.

I take it that amo is living in a Muslim country now, so I wonder if she has ever encountered uneducated Muslims saying and doing weird things in a multicultural society.

But I hope the vast majority of the future European Muslims will be educated though.

[Jeff]

thanks Jeff, but I feel it's not worth the hassle. I've had my own motives for converting that amo has no idea of just as she has no idea of the real life in Russia, taking into account that she's a fan of the United Russia party. But oh well. Errare humanum est.

amo, I'd ask you to restrain yourself from commenting on my personality. I can always elaborate my views myself if I feel that I need to.

Oh and don't DARE to say 'DON'T DARE' to me ever again. You're no mother to me.

I know you can handle yourself.

I'm interested in the intellectual issue involved too.

We Catholics wrestle with this stuff also: What to do with people who have faith but feel they must keep reservations or strike out on their own in certain areas.

It's good for me to see how Muslims deal with and think about it too.

(Also, I just like fairness and justice...and I don't like to see people ganged up on! :p )

[amo_l_oman]

thanks Jeff, but I feel it's not worth the hassle. I've had my own motives for converting that amo has no idea of just as she has no idea of the real life in Russia, taking into account that she's a fan of the United Russia party. But oh well. Errare humanum est.

If you became Muslim, am sure you believe in God
Just is about time you open a book and start learning
Useless you answer through slogans
When we talk about Islam, you must prove your points with the words of God and those of the Prophet, without hijacking them to prove your personal points
Don't bring politics here
I very well know how life in Russia because I know many good Russians and you can keep your arrogant attitudes for others
If you want to go on American payrolls like some of your fellow citizens, free to do it and to insult United Russia
Just stop to be an hypocrite and leave St George ribbon out
Is not enough to be considered Russian


amo, I'd ask you to restrain yourself from commenting on my personality. I can always elaborate my views myself if I feel that I need to.

I didn't comment on your personality
I comment on the things you write and they're very clear


Oh and don't DARE to say 'DON'T DARE' to me ever again. You're no mother to me.

And you don't dare to say that I must not dare
I don't need your permission
Religion is my life
When you insult it, then be ready to pay consequences
I don't take lessons from a spoiled brat [my Islamic manners are out now, but am a human ]


I take it that amo is living in a Muslim country now, so I wonder if she has ever encountered uneducated Muslims saying and doing weird things in a multicultural society.

I've visited many places and I met many uneducated people and some were Muslims because their culture and attitudes prevailed on their religion and some were not Muslims, having degrees also, but their spiritual life was dry


But I hope the vast majority of the future European Muslims will be educated though.
They are, do not worry

[Russo_turisto]

If you became Muslim, am sure you believe in God
Just is about time you open a book and start learning
Useless you answer through slogans
When we talk about Islam, you must prove your points with the words of God and those of the Prophet, without hijacking them to prove your personal points
Don't bring politics here
I very well know how life in Russia because I know many good Russians and you can keep your arrogant attitudes for others
If you want to go on American payrolls like some of your fellow citizens, free to do it and to insult United Russia

where did I insult United Russia, the party of bureaucrats and corruptionists?
you're implying as if it's forbidden to have personal points in Islam? Sorry, then my notion of Islam is different thatn yours.:cute:


Just stop to be an hypocrite and leave St George ribbon out
Is not enough to be considered Russian


amo, you're weird. I was asking you to leave my personality alone. You failed. WTH do you want? what if I wear a small St George ribbon? FYI it's not the big ribbon which is an order, it's just a ribbon that almost every Russian wears on the 9th of May just to commemorate the victims of the war. FYI my family suffered throughout it too. what's the big deal about the ribbon? and what do you know about me that gives you the right to attack my ways here? looks as if you're the prosecutor.



Religion is my life

well, I can only sympathize with you. I always thought religion was only part of human life. I thought life was all about self-improvement, not religion alone.

[wudjab]

Russo,

Islam is a complete way of life.

[amo_l_oman]

Islam is a complete way of life.

One day you will believe
I know that

[Russo_turisto]

Russo,

Islam is a complete way of life.

and a predefined way of thinking too? no way.

[wudjab]

^^ amo

I'm willing to bet every last cent I own on a bet that I will NOT.

How about you ?

(The more I read about Islam from enlightened Muslims like you and Clouds and ElRey and Sting, etc, etc) the bleaker your odds are.

[IceTea]

well, I can only sympathize with you. I always thought religion was only part of human life. I thought life was all about self-improvement, not religion alone.

Human are created to worship Allah (swt). This is stated in the holy Quran.

And does Islam stopping someone from self-improvement. The truth is, Islamic teachings if followed correctly it always lead to be a better human being.

[wudjab]

Where can we see some examples of this 'followed correctly' ?

[BrAiKi]

I'll cut it short for you wudjab, none. Nobody does, even our beloved sheikh IceTea, may God bless him.

[Russo_turisto]

Human are created to worship Allah (swt). This is stated in the holy Quran.

And does Islam stopping someone from self-improvement. The truth is, Islamic teachings if followed correctly it always lead to be a better human being.

My point was,

religion is NOT THE ONLY way of self-improvement.

[IceTea]

Why not have both a religion and what you call it 'self-improvement'.

Religion is the key to heaven.

"Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose), and that you would not be brought back to Us?"

[Reluctant]

My point was,

religion is NOT THE ONLY way of self-improvement.

Why did you convert to Islam? What do you like about it?

For me personally Islam is the only way to self-improvement. Even if you want to change yourself or you recognize that something is wrong or you have a problem that you need to improve, even if you can rationally sense this, Islam gives you the framework through which to actualize your reason and actually change, all with Allah and for the right intention and ends. Islam is a complete way of life, natural and balanced and everything. This can be expanded upon, but that's what it is for me, and many more things. Faith in Allah and practicing Islam is everything. It's the most complete and best way of life in every way and sense. This can be talked about much more, but I have seen so much you have written that seems negative about Islam. I would like to know what you like about it and why you converted.

[Reluctant]

Very true for the bolded part.:yes: but... uhm I believe anyone's attitude can be changed, personality doesn't matter. I firmly believe IceTea is a very devout Muslim, much better than myself but so far I don't see him caring too much about Non-Muslim population of Europe that is gonna suffer, I underline it, suffer Islamisation pretty soon. Unless the Islam of the future will be enlightened (as it was in its early days when Islamic science such as medicine and maths flourished) and not narrow-minded, Europe will learn its hard lessons as the main result of it.


Again, what are you talking about? What do you mean that a place will "suffer" if Islam is implemented there? You talk about Taliban or, Islam of this or that era, etc. What kind of talk is this and what Muslim views the world like this? Why are you not just talking about Islam as someone who has studied the religion and understands Islam in its pure form? Muslims don't talk like this. And Muslims as Europe's "guests?" Moreover, what does Islam as how it is practiced have to do with Muslims who contributed to math or science? You can say that, "Such and such's way that they practice Islam is not in accordance with the Qur'an and sunnah, and I believe if they don't change, there will be suffering," but to address Islam in and of itself and say these things is kufr. The Qur'an and sunnah are a mercy. Maybe you can differ with some group's implementation or attitude towards these things, but speaking of Islam itself like this is mistaken, and it's not even the way a convert should be speaking or relating to Islam, given that they would have studied the religion and consider it to be the truth.

Alhmdulillah, All praises to Allah, the Creator of the worlds. All good words, all acts are for Allah. I testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger and slave of Allah. May Allah's blessings and peace be on the Messenger Nabi Muhammad sullallahu 'alayhi wa salaam, his wives, his family, his offspring, and all of his followers, and give them success in this world and the next and give them the best in all ways. Ameen!

[IceTea]

well, I can only sympathize with you. I always thought religion was only part of human life. I thought life was all about self-improvement, not religion alone.

What you thought is wrong:

Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "Verily, my Salât (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinn and all that exists).

[Reluctant]

Assalaamu aleykum Russo_turisto, I'm sorry if I came across as harsh earlier. When I converted to Islam I was once in a mosque reading the Qur'an and asked someone a question about an ayat, and they asked me if I was Muslim. Obviously if I was in a mosque reading the Qur'an, I am a Muslim. And they asked in a threatening way, not in a nice way, so it hurt me a lot and still does because I love Islam and see myself as a Muslim. I hope that you are not feeling the same way. I don't know what's in your heart and your true beliefs, but externally speaking, the vast majority of the posts that I have read from you appear to be critical of Islam in one way or another and do not distinguish between the pure religion itself based on the Qur'an and the sunnah and the actions of Muslims. They are not the same thing. It is permissible to criticize one, it is not permissible to criticize the other. Thus, I am merely seeking clarification about some things that you have voiced that are clearly not in line with the way that one should address Islam nor its beliefs. I apologize if I caused you any hurt through my comment, and I hope you can forgive me, but at the same time I also don't view your comments as acceptable in terms of Islam and as a Muslim. I haven't really seen you praise Islam that much or even say why you think it's the truth or give any rationale for why you have converted, as I said, I have mainly seen criticism on all levels. If this is mistaken, I apologize, and I really hope you forgive me if I have hurt you in any way. Assalaamu aleykum.

[wudjab]

Assalaamu aleykum Russo_turisto, I'm sorry if I came across as harsh earlier. When I converted to Islam I was once in a mosque reading the Qur'an and asked someone a question about an ayat, and they asked me if I was Muslim. Obviously if I was in a mosque reading the Qur'an, I am a Muslim. And they asked in a threatening way, not in a nice way, so it hurt me a lot and still does because I love Islam and see myself as a Muslim. I hope that you are not feeling the same way. I don't know what's in your heart and your true beliefs, but externally speaking, the vast majority of the posts that I have read from you appear to be critical of Islam in one way or another and do not distinguish between the pure religion itself based on the Qur'an and the sunnah and the actions of Muslims. They are not the same thing. It is permissible to criticize one, it is not permissible to criticize the other. Thus, I am merely seeking clarification about some things that you have voiced that are clearly not in line with the way that one should address Islam nor its beliefs. I apologize if I caused you any hurt through my comment, and I hope you can forgive me, but at the same time I also don't view your comments as acceptable in terms of Islam and as a Muslim. I haven't really seen you praise Islam that much or even say why you think it's the truth or give any rationale for why you have converted, as I said, I have mainly seen criticism on all levels. If this is mistaken, I apologize, and I really hope you forgive me if I have hurt you in any way. Assalaamu aleykum.

May I ask why ?

Why is Islam beyond criticism ?

Do you not see that is precisely what Russo is talking about ?
Do you not see that the problems that muslims are creating in Europe and around the world are precisely because they believe that Islam is beyond criticism ?

[Reluctant]

May I ask why ?

Why is Islam beyond criticism ?

Do you not see that is precisely what Russo is talking about ?
Do you not see that the problems that muslims are creating in Europe and around the world are precisely because they believe that Islam is beyond criticism ?

No, honestly, I don't. This is not what he was talking about. As far as criticism goes, I mean denigration of key tenets of Islamic belief and practice from a fellow Muslim, not questioning and constructive criticism of conceptions, attitudes, or implementation of Islam. Of course there is room for open debate and criticism among Muslim schools of thought. No one is saying that Islam is beyond criticism, I am still learning about the religion itself as well, as should every Muslim. This entails using reason to spot inconsistencies among Islamic schools of thought both internally and in regards to the modern world, trying to reconcile them, and ultimately attempting to find the correct way in which Islam should be lived and practiced. This entails a large degree of questioning and criticism, constructive or not. This should be allowed and encouraged.

Only through questioning and doubting can one have a strong faith and come to a reasoned understanding of Islam and how it is to be most authentically practiced. This is what has led me to Islam and is currently guiding me through my search to find the most authentic way in which Islam was originally practiced and should be lived today, so it's only reasonable that this same process giving me the ability to come to Islam should naturally be encouraged under it. There is absolutely room for Muslims to address the modern world and engage in the use of reason to extrapolate the core principles of the religion and apply them in a way that makes sense today. This takes criticism and reason, and a strong desire to find the truth and not be afraid to question. And to achieve this within the bounds of Islam you need to have a strong sense of reason and understand the basis for extrapolating the reasoning behind the religion's stipulations. Critiquing and trying to find the truth behind various conceptions of Islam, from an internal Muslim perspective, is encouraged and valid. I engage in this everyday when studying fiqh. Without this use of reason and criticism no one would ever find the truth, it's a natural extension of reason and one's intellect.

However, there is a difference between debating and criticizing various conceptions of Islam, mainly from a jurisprudential perspective, and criticizing the overall tenets of Islam, or not drawing a difference between the two. No Muslim should be arguing against the fact that the spread of Islam and its principles in both individuals and society is a good thing. Muslims believe that Islam and its laws are a mercy for all of mankind. What the difference lies in is what these laws entail, what the right laws are, how we gauge the context of these laws as they were revealed, what are the means and goals behind these laws, and how can these laws be applied, or can they be applied today, in a world that is fundamentally different from the context in which they were originally revealed. And to do this takes critical thinking and reason and questioning, Islam is not opposed to any of these, and Islam has built in tools to recognize the "maqasid"--the goals, reasoning, and intent, behind the stipulations of the shariah and adapt them to various conditions and circumstances. Wherein the problem lies is Muslims criticizing the overall goals of Islam. As I said before, it is ok for someone to say, "I don't agree with this conception of Islam," or, "I am afraid if such and such a group seeks to implement their ideals or their conception of Islam," or, "I don't find this rational," that's fine. And non-Muslims, go ahead and criticize all you want. We should have a reasoned and balanced worldview that can stand up to any reason or criticism and we should have the tools to question and withstand the questions that others pose. Criticism and questioning were present during the Prophet's life and he and his companions were expected to respond to these questions on an intellectual level. This is a given if you believe that something is the truth. However, I was merely addressing the original quote you bolded in the context of a Muslim criticizing a key tenet of Islam, namely the belief that Islam's laws and stipulations are inherently good, benefit mankind, and should be sought to be spread, and not making a difference between this Islamic belief, and the conceptions of Islam that come under this heading. I called out Russo on his inability to distinguish between Islam, which he talks very little about, and conceptions of Islam as viewed or put into place by groups or other individuals. Whoever implements these laws, for good or bad, their methodology, and their conceptions of these laws and what they entail, are up for debate and criticism insomuch as they are a means to find the truth and apply Islam in the spirit of the law, which is to help mankind and bring about benefit to individuals and society.

However, as to the original topic of the thread, there are many factors. Firstly, there are many people of Arab, Balkan, or South Asian heritage in Europe, a very small percentage of which I would say are practicing Muslims. So, when someone says, "Muslim population," really they're talking about people who have ethnicities from traditionally Muslim parts of the world. Out of these, some of these people have no connection to Islam at all. Others might practice it culturally. While others might practice it, but have serious doubts about Islam because they are rationally confused about it. Out of all of these, the number of serious, believing Muslims, is probably a fraction of the actual number of people from traditionally Muslim parts of the world. And of these, those who want to implement Islam in Europe or subvert European ideals are very small. Of these people a good percentage don't have a rational understanding of Islam, and once their identity crisis passes, will probably adopt a more open version of their beliefs. So, this doom and gloom situation that the video posits I don't think exists in reality.

Moreover, I have a fundamental problem with Muslims who believe that Islam is beyond criticism. As I said, criticism is a natural extension of the faculty of reason, criticism and saying, "This isn't rational," or, "This doesn't make sense, what does this mean," and trying to find the truth, etc.--this process of criticism and questioning is what has brought me to Islam, and it is a natural extension and component of reason, and should naturally be encouraged. These people who are afraid of criticism, questioning, and in-depth analysis of Islam are like this because of the Islam they believe in and its inherent irrationalities. In the West, especially Europe I would think, this is combined in some cases with an element of social marginalization, which creates unreasonable people, or people who accept Islam without rationally thinking through their conception of Islam, which at the end of the day manifests itself as an Islam that is illogical and ultimately fails in the battle of ideas. For instance, I believe that Sunni Islam is inherently irrational, on multiple levels. For me this is manifested in a text-based scholastic understanding of the religion where I see shortcomings, logical absurdities, and contradictions. Thus, for me, if one were to believe that the four madhabs of Sunni Islam are the be-all end-all paths to the truth, and all this belief entails, in my eyes it means that either they haven't studied Islam enough--which is disastrous if they seek to present themselves as authorities on Islam or represent it--or they have studied it, but haven't realized or try to mentally pave over these intellectual problems, due to emotional attachment--neither of which is very good or in my eyes speaks to their ability to use reason. When you hew yourself into such illogical beliefs on the base level of what you believe and how you relate to the world, this attitude tends to extend itself to every area of life; you tend to react negatively to criticism because you yourself aren't comfortable in what you believe, sense the logical and scholastic gaps in your own understanding and conception of Islam, and can't justify your beliefs through reason, questioning, and rational analysis. This does not give one the tools or worldview to actively engage the world and often it entails a rejection of the current state of the world and dream to return it to a simple past where they envision reason played a small role. This attitude extends itself to historical study and criticism; science, technology, and education; and conceptions of religion and social relations. Reason and questioning is what brings people to Islam, so to say that this process must stop when one reaches Islam is absurd.

There is room to debate what Islam is and how it is best to be implemented. Where the problem lies is when a Muslim doesn't recognize the difference between the two, or focuses excessively on the actions of Muslims and various conceptions of Islam, instead of focusing on trying to understand the pure version of Islam as practiced by the Prophet in law and spirit. That's what one should be thinking about as a convert, that's why I was surprised that Russo_turisto wasn't focusing on it, in addition to equating Islam with conceptions of Islam, and that's what I was addressing with him.

[IceTea]

baa7ith, that reply will make wudjab to leave the building.

You have made it very clear.

[Reluctant]

Started a thread about the value of knowledge in Islam. :)

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1316040

[Jeff]

No Muslim should be arguing against the fact that the spread of Islam and its principles in both individuals and society is a good thing.

Well, suppose I put the question to you this way:

Suppose the Taliban conquered Greece. Would that be a good thing for Greece?

Would it be a "mercy"?

Isn't Russo saying that he recognizes that if the "pure" Islam spread to Europe, it would be a mercy, but if Islam as he sees it in too much of the ME today spread to Europe, it would cause some severe problems and damage some beautiful things?

Why isn't that at least an optional opinion for a Muslim?

[Jeff]

And here is another question, baaith:

What if someone says, "I have come to doubt X. I am not sure whether that is compatible with being a Muslim or not, but I have trouble accepting it as true. I no longer can honestly say, 'I believe it.'"

"What would you advise me to do, baaith?"

Suppose in your judgment it is not compatible with Islam. What advice would you give?

[wudjab]

Baaith,

Your post was far too long to read and understand in one reading, so I'll reserve comment till later.

From a cursory reading of what you wrote, I get the feeling that you believe there are lines in the sand that cannot be crossed when critiquing Islam.

Why ?

Do you give that same respect to other religions ?

Or is this something that has to be reserved only for Islam ?

Also I get the feeling that it is okay for a non muslim to question Islam but for a muslim to do so it unacceptable ?

[Reluctant]

Sorry wudjab I can't really talk to you rationally about the subject if you don't read my post. And no, that's not what I'm saying. My post was very straight forward, so take five minutes and try to understand what is being said.

"Also I get the feeling that it is okay for a non muslim to question Islam but for a muslim to do so it unacceptable?"

No, read the post, then get back to me.

[Reluctant]

Well, suppose I put the question to you this way:

Suppose the Taliban conquered Greece. Would that be a good thing for Greece?

Would it be a "mercy"?

Isn't Russo saying that he recognizes that if the "pure" Islam spread to Europe, it would be a mercy, but if Islam as he sees it in too much of the ME today spread to Europe, it would cause some severe problems and damage some beautiful things?

Why isn't that at least an optional opinion for a Muslim?

No, Jeff, that's not what Russo_turisto was saying. You keep on putting words in his mouth that he has never articulated. He made no such qualification, and in his other posts intimated that he did not understand or acknowledge any difference between Islam, and the actions of modern groups or conceptions of how Islam is to be implemented. This is precisely what my post addressed. I seriously can't understand how you can even write this post having read and understood the previous messages in this thread. Yes, that is an "optional option." :rolleyes: However, it is eminently clear that you fail to understand what Russo_turisto is saying and haven't taken the time to sit down and even read this thread.

[Jeff]

No, Jeff, that's not what Russo_turisto was saying. You keep on putting words in his mouth that he has never articulated. He made no such qualification, and in his other posts intimated that he did not understand or acknowledge any difference between Islam, and the actions of modern groups or conceptions of how Islam is to be implemented. This is precisely what my post addressed. I seriously can't understand how you can even write this post having coherently read and understand the previous messages in this thread. Yes, that is an "optional option." :rolleyes: However, it is eminently clear that you fail to understand what Russo_turisto is saying and haven't taken the time to sit down and even read this thread.

Well, that's possible. If I was inattentive to your post or if I read too much into what Russo was trying to say, I apologize to both of you.

But going back to his original posts, he says, "Who is talking about Muslims? I'm talking about Europe." And he speaks of "Islam as a philosophy", which is an odd way of putting it but seems to be making some distinction between Islam "the pure religion" and Islam "the approach toward life in general that I see this movement taking too often today".

True, I am reading this with a sympathetic eye. But are you sure you're not reading it with an UNsympathetic eye? I'm not sure it's perfectly clear one way or the other. That's why I am trying to get at what Russo MEANS.

Only he can say in the end, of course.

Your post is coherent and clear, but that doesn't mean it covers all the ground. As with most good presentations in a dialogue, it provokes more questions.

But I don't want to be "provocative" in a bad sense! :p I admired your "climb down" post where you took a warmer attitude and tried not to be discouraging...and to present your positions with less heat and more illumination.

[Reluctant]

And he speaks of "Islam as a philosophy", which is an odd way of putting it but seems to be making some distinction between Islam "the pure religion" and Islam "the approach toward life in general that I see this movement taking too often today".


My point of contention, as I've articulated multiple times in this thread, is that, at least through the posts I've seen, he has an inability to either acknowledge or communicate that he understands the difference between these two concepts. There is way too much talk about seeing Islam itself as the actions of whatever group, and no talk at all about Islam as a religion, based upon its teachings. The two are not synonymous in every way, and that's what I've been addressing.

[Jeff]

My point of contention, as I've articulated multiple times in this thread, is that, at least through the posts I've seen, he has an inability to either acknowledge or communicate that he understands the difference between these two concepts. There is way too much talk about seeing Islam itself as the actions of whatever group, and no talk at all about Islam as a religion, based upon its teachings. The two are not synonymous in every way, and that's what I've been addressing.

I think that's fair. And I also think the best word in what you wrote above is "articulate". Perhaps he is not articulating the difference, perhaps he isn't sure about it himself....

And that's what I mean by the difference between systematic and intuitive thinkers. I'm with you: I like systematic stuff. And I think it has a value beyond my likes and dislikes.

But I have to admit that there are good people who just won't be squeezed into the thought categories it seems they should go into.

Which is why I found your softer, more invitingly critical approach to be so praiseworthy.

[hijabi]

Let me jump in here seeing as I started this all - firstly what kind of muslims are we talking about here? immigrants? Converts? Both have their issues, both have their pros and cons. Has anyone thought of what we would lose if a particularly strict group was in charge? And I dont mean Taliban strict - just regualr run of the mill strict like a lot of the converts are? Looking at the muslims today as we are if this were to happen:

There would be no music - no Beethoven, no Bach...no Hothouse Flowers.
There would be no more Mona Lisa,nor any of the paintings by Rubens, Michael Angelo etc
Monuments, temples, graves would be destroyed - in essence history itself would be changed.
Expressive poetry would die out.....
Education would have to be changed to meet what is perceived to be Islamic ( and no, that is NOT a good thing)
There would be no more MBC Action!!!
War would be commonplace - lets be honest here - we cant even agree with each other! Sunni vs Ibadhi vs Shia vs Sufi.... the list goes on
And most importantly Ice and Co. - who would we blame for all our woes if there were no more kuffaar?

I say we get those Europeans some Viagra and get those men breeding!

[Russo_turisto]

^^ hijabi that was impressive and I didn't see it coming... :yes::yes:

[STING]

When Imam Mahdi comes before the end of time, he will have his followers cross snow to reach him. The larger his army, the better :)

[Mr Tickle]

I believe that the Koran does not mention the Mahdi

I understand that Al-Bukhari does not mention the Mahdi - although interestingly, he does mention the second coming of Jesus

Then again, Jesus's style was not to use the sword

[nezitiC]

^there's a Hadith in AlBukhari and Moslim.

Anyway, so according to this thread's video, I think the Christian world map in the end of the video below will be dotted in green.
History of religions

[Charm]

^Surely Islam have grew alooooooooooot more than what that map shows! Hamdillah/Thank God :)

[Russo_turisto]

the video is historically not very accurate. Christian conquests everywhere, including Russia, began pretty early, around 1500 AD.

[FAITH86]

Mr Tickle,

Many hadeeths make mention to the Awaited Leader, Imam Mahdi.

[Jihad4Truth]

World demographics are changing in that people are becoming less religous.

[Thalia]

World demographics are changing in that people are becoming less religous.
Yes.. because most religions don't order the death of those people who leave it. *cough*

So you have a steep rise in Atheism.. that is of course not being plotted on the same graph as 'the spreading of religions' or 'growth of religions'.

If 90% of the world's population became atheist tomorrow, including all religions, save for muslims.. it would appear that Islam is the leading religion. And it would be. But it doesn't mean it would dominate the world at a 10%. LOL

[IceTea]

Yes.. because most religions don't order the death of those people who leave it. *cough*



It is amazing isn't it, with that and you see Islam is growing. It is a magnet to the truth seekers. :cute:

They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (i.e. the religion of Islâm, this Qur'ân, and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)) with their mouths. But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it).

Face it, no force on earth can stop the spread of Islam.

[Mr Tickle]

Hi Faith,

Why is the Mahdi not mentioned in the Quran?