View Full Version : Impotence.
If a woman is barren, and can't have children.. her husband has 2 options.
Marry another or divorce her.
What options does a woman have if her husband is impotent and cannot produce offspring?
Divorce him and remarry. Didn't know it was that tricky. Maybe it was, for you :p
See how Islam favors women? A barren, out of shape, and aged woman can still live with her husband.
Only one option. Ask for a divorce by court.
Divorce him and remarry. Didn't know it was that tricky. Maybe it was, for you :p
See how Islam favors women? A barren, out of shape, and aged woman can still live with her husband.
See.. that would be so kind of him, I agree!
So.. she has one choice.
He gets two.
Why? Why can't she marry another man. Surely, they'll know who's kids are who's this time. :)
She'd be doing such an honorable thing by not leaving her impotent, balding, out of shape, aged husband... Who wants a man who can't have kids?
Alibali
15-12-08, 08:19 AM
Well a woman could remarry but in general people kind of encourage the woman to stay with the man so that it doesn't become common knowledge he can't father a child. Lets face it if she went on and had a child with a new husband it would kind of be an indication as to who had the problem and in this society it would make life quite hard for a man. BUt if the woman stays with the husband people are inclined to think its her that has the problem and isn't the husband really good to be staying with a wife who can't give him a child.
But I think you may be confusing impotence with sterility because with the wonders of moderen technology an impotent man could still have a child with his wife, while a man would ahve to be completely sterile not to be able to have a child even with medical help.
Many couples can have happy marriages without children but I think for the most part the man re-marries if the problem is with his wife and it can't be fixed.
And and I really do think that comment about impotent out of shape men is immature as well as offensive
Why? Why can't she marry another man. Surely, they'll know who's kids are who's this time. :)
Very good question. A basic thought that crosses the minds of all who start thinking.
People have their views, but mine is pretty straight forward.
Men are the providers (like Bush was the decider :p). Have you not learned the basic nature of men yet my child? Have you not ever come across a real man?
Why do you think men have invaded lands and captured kingdoms throughout the history?
It might not sound fair for a women with extra dosage of testosterone, but it's true.
Anyhow, if you manage to find two men who agree to marry you at once, fair enough, go for it. But I doubt either one of the two will satisfy you even a tiny bit, if you know what I mean ;)
yes.. sterility is what i meant.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Oh, and I agree with you that marriages can be good even without kids..
but while trying to get my head around poligamy, and how on earth there can be anything positive about it, I could almost convince myself of a couple of points, if only it wasn't so chauvinist.
Sophisticated
15-12-08, 08:31 AM
As I stated in some other thread,couples need to agree on every thing before they marry.
I dont re-call any religion accept that a woman can have two men at the same time.
anyhow,Islam restricted the woman to have one man and the man to have 4 woman "With conditions" and this is how the system work in this religion.You can question it as much you want but this is how the religion works.
If you want my personal opinion, I’m not into single marriage.
Very good question. A basic thought that crosses the minds of all who start thinking.
People have their views, but mine is pretty straight forward.
Men are the providers (like Bush was the decider :p). Have you not learned the basic nature of men yet my child? Have you not ever come across a real man?
Why do you think men have invaded lands and captured kingdoms throughout the history?
It might not sound fair for a women with extra dosage of testosterone, but it's true.
Anyhow, if you manage to find two men who agree to marry you at once, fair enough, go for it. But I doubt either one of the two will satisfy you even a tiny bit, if you know what I mean ;)
Nothing you've said here has anything to do with the topic.
However.. since I have nothing better to do, I'll entertain the thought for a sec.
Right.
I am my own provider. That's one down.
Finding two men to marry me is easy. I've already got one - officially.... I'll just not tell the first one about the second one. And vice versa. I'm sure that could be done fairly easy. :D
Now, finding two men to satisfy me... hmm.. that could be the tricky part. I'd have to outsource for at least one.. hope you don't mind. :hyper:
Now back to topic.
Explain how it's fair for a man to face divorce simply because he can't have kids.. because it's the only way his wife can ever have children is by leaving him for a man who can produce offpring?
Why doesn't a man enjoy the same benefits and rights of playing second fiddle... I mean.. of being one of two husbands to this woman?
I would say that she should divorce him if kids is really what she wants, if she prefers sacrificing that for him then good for her.
As for guys and marrying more than one woman I can understand why it can't be the opposite. Given the fact that women are quite passionate and taken with their emotions mostly. The woman would sympathise more and hence would encourage the guy to go marry another just for the sake of him having offsprings that would carry his name and such (am not saying all would do that).
Guys on the other hand, most probably wouldn't agree with nor encourage their wives to go marry another just for the sake of her having kids while he still is in the picture, in my opinion. It's all part of the survival of the fittest thing. A guy wouldn't want to show that he is weak in any field or area. So that is that!!
At least Islam allows the woman to have divorce if her husband is impotent, does christianity give her this right ? NO.
So you better ask your religion to free women first then come to discuss muslim women matters.
Don't throw rocks to others when your own house is made of glass.
Angel_Eyes
15-12-08, 08:50 AM
It makes no difference to question an Islamic ruling. What's said is said and we have to follow it, even if it may seem harsh and unfair.
As the others said, she has the right to divorce him.
If I were in that situation, I wouldn't divorce. I'd still stick with him. As much as I think children are a blessing and I love them, I wouldn't leave him for that reason. I know how it would make me feel if it were the other way around and I (God forbid) couldn't have children.
Sophisticated
15-12-08, 08:50 AM
Many woman/men love to have children..they dream and all plan all their life to have one.Some of them cant feel life without having one.Some woman/men can live without one.
The man keep the first wife and marry a second because he understand that the first wife will face difficulty to find another house and a job.If a woman feels that she cant accept the idea if second wife and survive without him then she should divorce him and live her life.
You cant force people to stay together if they dont find what they need!
Do you know that there are some cases in the court which wives asking for divorce because they are not sexually satisfied?!
Now you never can blame that woman if she want more sexual life.
That's very true Rummy.. and that's what I see when I see these islamic rulings being so biased between men and women. What's good for the man, ain't for the woman. Even where the issue is about the right to have children, the right to marry and the right for divorce.
No matter how hard I try, I just can't get my head around it.
If poligamy was so good because it was tailor made to be honorable and for certain circumstances, it would be good for both. But it's not. And we all know why.
Very good question. A basic thought that crosses the minds of all who start thinking.
People have their views, but mine is pretty straight forward.
Men are the providers (like Bush was the decider :p). Have you not learned the basic nature of men yet my child? Have you not ever come across a real man?
Why do you think men have invaded lands and captured kingdoms throughout the history?
It might not sound fair for a women with extra dosage of testosterone, but it's true.
Anyhow, if you manage to find two men who agree to marry you at once, fair enough, go for it. But I doubt either one of the two will satisfy you even a tiny bit, if you know what I mean ;)
Lol Brilliiant! any man who agrees to share his woman with another man isnt a real man - hed defintely be impotent and perhaps even ganeeth
That's very true Rummy.. and that's what I see when I see these islamic rulings being so biased between men and women. What's good for the man, ain't for the woman. Even where the issue is about the right to have children, the right to marry and the right for divorce.
No matter how hard I try, I just can't get my head around it.
If poligamy was so good because it was tailor made to be honorable and for certain circumstances, it would be good for both. But it's not. And we all know why.
Thalia honey youre not thinking. Are you just trying to be contrary?
The issue of polygyny has nothing to do with taking rights away from women. Why would a woman need 2 men? Seriously why? If hes impotent - divorce him galas end of story. Women are not sexually driven - we're more emotionally based. Sex to us is more about love and sharing for men its more about an urge. And thats the way God/ mother nature created us.
Why? It needs to be this way for the survival of the human race. A man can impregnate millions of women, a woman however can only have one child at a time, take 9 months to get it out and another year at least to recover. We cannot reproduce for ever but men can. As difficult as it is for man to love more than one woman fairly I think its even safer to assume that for a woman it would be absolutely impossible.
Sorry love this argument is a no brainer - its pointless. As a woman I find it offensive to imply that Im solely driven by urges and hormones........
At least Islam allows the woman to have divorce if her husband is impotent, does christianity give her this right ? NO.
So you better ask your religion to free women first then come to discuss muslim women matters.
Don't throw rocks to others when your own house is made of glass.
That's true. In chirstianity you can't just leave your husband because he is ill or has a deficiency. But then ... he can't leave you or marry over you because you have a disability or a deficiency. And he certainly can't get (another) marriage blessed without the proper research being done.
So.. with that out of the way.. I'm going to sit back and watch you all make excuses for how a woman should leave her husband or stay childless and why a man gets the added bonus of two women at one time for the same reason.
No one is ever going to say.. "hey that's unfair." Not because no one thinks it isn't, but because the rest of you will hound them and stone them if they did.
And that's why those who do will find other ways to tell me what they think. ;)
That's true. In chirstianity you can't just leave your husband because he is ill or has a deficiency. But then ... he can't leave you or marry over you because you have a disability or a deficiency. And he certainly can't get (another) marriage blessed without the proper research being done.
So.. with that out of the way.. I'm going to sit back and watch you all make excuses for how a woman should leave her husband or stay childless and why a man gets the added bonus of two women at one time for the same reason.
No one is ever going to say.. "hey that's unfair." Not because no one thinks it isn't, but because the rest of you will hound them and stone them if they did.
And that's why those who do will find other ways to tell me what they think. ;)
So what you're trying to say that the woman who has impotent husband should have the right to marry another man beside her husband ? is this what you want to say ?
That's true. In chirstianity you can't just leave your husband because he is ill or has a deficiency. But then ... he can't leave you or marry over you because you have a disability or a deficiency. And he certainly can't get (another) marriage blessed without the proper research being done.
No but he can have a couple of mistresses or live in abject misery for the rest of his life. Ohhh and make your life a living hell too and youre wrong about christianity forcing ppl who are unhappy to stay together (only the catholics are that masochistic) in the rest of christianity you can get a divorce for no other reason than irreconcilable differences.......... Perhaps not in catholicism but all the others do.
So.. with that out of the way.. I'm going to sit back and watch you all make excuses for how a woman should leave her husband or stay childless and why a man gets the added bonus of two women at one time for the same reason.
No excuses needed. Common sense is all, its all about freedom of choice. and because men are primitive beings and women have a brain
No one is ever going to say.. "hey that's unfair." Not because no one thinks it isn't, but because the rest of you will hound them and stone them if they did.
Probably not cos hey it isnt unfair, its realistic and honest.
Alibali
15-12-08, 11:29 AM
At least Islam allows the woman to have divorce if her husband is impotent, does christianity give her this right ? NO.
So you better ask your religion to free women first then come to discuss muslim women matters.
Don't throw rocks to others when your own house is made of glass.
Actually in most christian countries religion doesn't come into divorce, if the woman wants one for whatever reason she can get one. Where the church and the state are one, as in countries that are roman catholic and the government is roman catholic divorce is usually not permissable but the marriage can be annulled - that is it goes to the holy church of rome and they agree to the marriage being annulled.
and as far am I'm aware one of the ten commandments says something about 'thout shall not commit adultery' and it is generally considered that to be married and have a lover (mistress or boyfriend) is commiting adultery.
thalia I do understand what you're saying about a woman with two men not being acceptable but it being ok for a man to have two three and four women but for the life of me I can't understand why any woman would want two men - one is enough surely lolol. I think at the end of the day we just have to accpet that double standards reign supreme when it comes to the rights of men over women in this part of the world - double standards and hypocrisy regardless of how its dressed up. And all this business of women being emotionally driven but men being driven by something else - yeh well I suppose thats one way to console yourself if your husband ever comes home having scratched an itch somewhere else. I'll forgive him becuase he really couldn't help it, it was his urges that made him do it ........rofl
Alibali
15-12-08, 11:44 AM
Hijabi, I am so loving your
No written law has ever been more binding than unwritten custom supported by popular opinion.
Was carrie from this part of the world cos she seems to know a lot about it? lol
I know about the annulment alibali that's why I brought it up. It's so stupid to trying to equal men and women in everything. What suits men doesn't necessarily must suit women.
Oh women get pregnant why men don't it's so unfair.
Why men have birds while women don't, not fair.
If we keep thinking of such things we will end up being simple mided and lame.
Thalia, the term impotence is used for both sterility & erectile dysfunction
The latter is a serious issue & I suggest the wives ask for a divorce or they end up being like many depressed women I see at work, it's a common problem mainly because of Diabetes
If it's only sterility, then that can be managed, some causes are reversible & there is the option of in vitro fertilization
minerva
15-12-08, 02:07 PM
At least Islam allows the woman to have divorce if her husband is impotent, does christianity give her this right ? NO.
So you better ask your religion to free women first then come to discuss muslim women matters.
Don't throw rocks to others when your own house is made of glass.
yes, a woman gets an annulment if he can't produce children and vice versa.
where did you get that from?
Context delete, so no need for this post.
Alibali
15-12-08, 04:05 PM
I know about the annulment alibali that's why I brought it up. It's so stupid to trying to equal men and women in everything. What suits men doesn't necessarily must suit women.
Oh women get pregnant why men don't it's so unfair.
Why men have birds while women don't, not fair.
If we keep thinking of such things we will end up being simple mided and lame.
annulment/divorce, its the same thing if at the end of the day the woman (or man is out of a marriage they don't want to be in.
as for the rest of it - you have made my day, thank you for the laugh. I for one am actually glad that its we women who were chosen to be the ones who carried a child. And the birds bit has me totally lost. As for the lame minds - are you speaking from personal experience ;)
Alibali
15-12-08, 04:12 PM
Thalia, the term impotence is used for both sterility & erectile dysfunction
The latter is a serious issue & I suggest the wives ask for a divorce or they end up being like many depressed women I see at work, it's a common problem mainly because of Diabetes
If it's only sterility, then that can be managed, some causes are reversible & there is the option of in vitro fertilization
I think you'll find your just a little bit confused about impotence and sterility. And as for people seeking a divorce because a husband is impotent due to an illness - I'm shocked, really shocked.
marianna
15-12-08, 04:26 PM
He could always get the pump or viagra. And if that doesn't work divorce him. And if he is sterile and you really want children that bad then divorce him. Why lose out on being a mother when you are with a man who cannot produce children with you?
What's good for the goose is good for the gandor. If a man can marry up to four wives because say the first wife or second or third cannot give him kids then a woman should be able to divorce a man if he cannot produce children with her or give her a satisfying sex life. Fair is fair in love and war darlings.
Disrespectful posts and off topics were deleted. Please keep the discussion mature.
& Jack, consider this an Official Notice keep this attitude and I assure you, I will ban you by myself.
yes, a woman gets an annulment if he can't produce children and vice versa.
where did you get that from?
Oh you mean she even can't get an annulment and stuck to her impotent husband for the rest of her life?
annulment/divorce, its the same thing if at the end of the day the woman (or man is out of a marriage they don't want to be in.
as for the rest of it - you have made my day, thank you for the laugh. I for one am actually glad that its we women who were chosen to be the ones who carried a child. And the birds bit has me totally lost. As for the lame minds - are you speaking from personal experience ;)
No divorce is not the same as annulment. Annulment is caried by man made law. Here we are talking in the religion sabla not the politics so when you get annulment and not divorce this means the church doesn't approve your divorce.
And yes am talking about personal experience which is talking to people like yourself ;)
Sigh.
If either partner is impotent, then they can get an annulment - which means the marriage was never valid and both can get married again.
Annulment IS a religious decree given by the Catholic Church.
minerva
15-12-08, 06:05 PM
Oh you mean she even can't get an annulment and stuck to her impotent husband for the rest of her life?
No divorce is not the same as annulment. Annulment is caried by man made law. Here we are talking in the religion sabla not the politics so when you get annulment and not divorce this means the church doesn't approve your divorce.
And yes am talking about personal experience which is talking to people like yourself ;)
huh....annulment = marriage never existed.
if a guy can't get it up, marriage was not consummated, marriage never existed = annulment. period.
woman gets laid with a decent guy who hasn't got willy problems, gets pregnant. is happy.
It's also good to mention that most christian couples stay together and ADOPT.
Alibali, I get your point about 2 husbands.. and to keep with that.. only a crazy man would opt for 3 and 4 mothers-in-law.. but that's not the point is it. :D
The point is, as hijab well pointed out.. poligamy is ok for men and not women because men I guess have all these instinctive natural sexual urges.. that apparently women don't have. And even though we try hard to be civilised as a race and in control of all these urges, some men must be excused and allowed to live like.. well.. animals (?).
At least, we can look at the animal kingdom for answers into some human's behavior. :rolleyes:
Then why is divorce prohibited? And if the catholic church approves annulment which you say the same as divorce then it's the same in Islam. However Islam gave more options when the wife is barren. She either ask for divorce or agrees that her husband marry another wife besides her or the husband just live it and doesn't do either.
Then why is divorce prohibited? And if the catholic church approves annulment which you say the same as divorce then it's the same in Islam. However Islam gave more options when the wife is barren. She either ask for divorce or agrees that her husband marry another wife besides her or the husband just live it and doesn't do either.
But do you agree that the man enjoys better privileges (than a woman) when it comes to the spouse being barren?
I know you could never EVER imagine your wife sleeping with another man, but for a few seconds, just try to put yourself in a co-wife's shoes. So.. lets imagine your wife CAN marry another man because you can't have kids...
How does that make you feel?
Then why is divorce prohibited? And if the catholic church approves annulment which you say the same as divorce then it's the same in Islam. However Islam gave more options when the wife is barren. She either ask for divorce or agrees that her husband marry another wife besides her or the husband just live it and doesn't do either.
Because Jesus Christ said so.
One of the reasons behind marriage is procreation. If that condition cannot be met due to a physical handicap, then the marriage can be annulled.
But do you agree that the man enjoys better privileges (than a woman) when it comes to the spouse being barren?
I know you could never EVER imagine your wife sleeping with another man, but for a few seconds, just try to put yourself in a co-wife's shoes. So.. lets imagine your wife CAN marry another man because you can't have kids...
How does that make you feel?
God created me to be jealous and have mind. If I to be impotent then I give HER the choice to have the divorce and have kids with whoever she likes. If she happened to be barren then she also should give me the choice to have another woman and we get divorce or depends on her to stay with me while am marrying another one or depends on me not to marry another one but be with her and whenever God writes to us to have kids then we'll definitly will and this would be my option.
The man marrying more than one is a divine law. God Put it for a reason and it happened that so many women agreed to live with it and yes by their own choice.
Because Jesus Christ said so.
.
Thanks. Very satisfying answer. Now apply this in Islam. Cos Allah said so.
So.. you refuse to answer my little hypothetical question. As expected.
Anyone else want to have a go?
I believe I answered your question very clearly. It's up to you to accept to understand it or not. Bu i guess YOU did not answer my previous question. scroll to page one.
Thanks. Very satisfying answer. Now apply this in Islam. Cos Allah said so.
Yes. Jesus said no divorce. He said it to the men and to the women,
So you're saying that Allah says .. lets have double standards. Correct?
The usual argument about women not being allowed to marry more than one man is because no one would know whose kids are whose. In the case of male sterility, that's not going to be a problem is it. ;)
So.. that looks like double standards to me. I don't live with poligamy all around me, well except for the sad case of my in-laws - but that's another story.. so pardon me for being a little .. maybe 'out of touch' with its 'beauty'.
I believe I answered your question very clearly. It's up to you to accept to understand it or not. Bu i guess YOU did not answer my previous question. scroll to page one.
The question was: how would you feel if your wife could marry another man because you cannot have kids and did so. And had his kids.
Of course I won't accept it. But I rather she gets divorce and enjoy being with another man. This also goes to women. I think you failed to understand that also women have the choice to agree with their husband marrying another woman or not.
You don't question Jesus Christs orders. We don't question God's orders. He Tells us we obey. He Says we listen. Your religion ( Currently ) doesn't allow men to have more than one wife our religion allows. Your religion allows you to drink alcohol and eat pigs our religion doesn't. Everyone sticks to his/her religion. Leave muslims issues for muslims. When Islamic teachings harm you as person then we can have a talk about it other than this I don't understand your poking in matters don't concern you.
marianna
15-12-08, 06:50 PM
Well, Thalia comes from a background where she was touched by Muslims. From what I understand her husband is a Muslim. Thalia correct me if I am wrong. So, she has seen first hand what has happened in her husband's family when it comes to this issue. I have seen it also first hand when a man takes on more than one wife and both wives are left unhappy and they are good Omani Muslim women.
Oh marianna you are revealing personal information now :rolleyes:
FAITH86
15-12-08, 06:55 PM
Marry his bro... :XD:
marianna
15-12-08, 06:58 PM
AM not. She already let us know a long long long time ago that she was married to a Muslim man. So she has every right to speak out against certain things on this forum.
And you guys already knew I dated a Muslim man. And that his father married TWO Omani women and BOTH are unhappy with this polygamous marriage. BOTH. And he lives now with NEITHER. What is ironic is that the husband of these two Omani women has plenty of sons. His first wife, my ex's mother, gave him all sons. ALL sons. And the second gave him three daughters. AND this second wife is MUCH younger than the first wife.
Go figure.
I know she said it herself but I think she doesn't like to drag her familly matter in discussion. When you mention personal example I guess this means you should bear up with the further discussion coming out of it which I believe it doesn't happen here. So till here am done.
My conclusion is:
-As Christians follow Jesus Christs teachings and orders. Muslims do the same to Allah's teachings and orders.
-Muslim women have the choice to agree or not with their husband having more than wife. It's only an option men can use when it's necessary and with the agreement of their wife.
- Many muslim women agree with this option and they live with it happily which means this Divine option helps alot.
Listen2theOcean
15-12-08, 07:58 PM
Thats why I am demanding the Islamic nations ether to allow women marrying 4 men or admiting they are using Islam in unfair manner and they take all the faults on their head if any one decided to change their religion because of this :-) even though I know that mainly women will prefere living with no man instead of living with 2 + more men one is enough to turn her world up side down to think of another.
Plus if a woman is unhappy being a second wife, she still have a choice to leave. Her unhappiness is not the fault of marrying a second wife cuz both ways he can cheat her and make her unhappy. I don't find any thing in marrying more than one women cuz the choice is still there but it is killing when she can't have the same chance why?!.
marianna
15-12-08, 08:19 PM
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Threadlike
15-12-08, 08:36 PM
The question was: how would you feel if your wife could marry another man because you cannot have kids and did so. And had his kids.
If a woman is not interested in an impotent husband, she needs to tell him that she wants a divorce...Allah SWT does not like divorce whether the one who demands it is a man or a woman. He also does not like polygamy to be abused for the sexual pleasures of a man...The will to have children, however, is a different case so far as I understand. However, I personally happen to know a Muslim couple who don't have children and have been together for almost a quarter of a century...No polygamy, no divorce. The same goes for many other cases; it doesn't have to be as complicated as it sounds in every case. People aren't always that selfish.
Marriage is not about JUST having kids...It's about love and compassion placed in between two souls by God Himself. It is for that reason that divorce is often termed 'the worst of halal'. If the wife does not WANT her husband to take another wife, she has EVERY RIGHT to DEMAND a divorce as well (You may check this (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1140333531684&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar) fatwa by Sheikh Ahmad Nur for further details).
minerva
15-12-08, 09:41 PM
Of course I won't accept it. But I rather she gets divorce and enjoy being with another man. This also goes to women. I think you failed to understand that also women have the choice to agree with their husband marrying another woman or not.
You don't question Jesus Christs orders. We don't question God's orders. He Tells us we obey. He Says we listen. Your religion ( Currently ) doesn't allow men to have more than one wife our religion allows. Your religion allows you to drink alcohol and eat pigs our religion doesn't. Everyone sticks to his/her religion. Leave muslims issues for muslims. When Islamic teachings harm you as person then we can have a talk about it other than this I don't understand your poking in matters don't concern you.
:hyper: El rey, if someone is related to a muslim, they can ask what they want.
Threadlike
15-12-08, 09:50 PM
^Oh and even if not, they can still ask what they want...I'm not related to any Christians, yet I still ask about Christianity when I want to and no one ever refuses to answer and I personally find that admirable in our Christian members.
minerva
15-12-08, 10:17 PM
^Oh and even if not, they can still ask what they want...I'm not related to any Christians, yet I still ask about Christianity when I want to and no one ever refuses to answer and I personally find that admirable in our Christian members.
thready, i can talk for myself, i never minded answering your questions to the best of my ability.
Threadlike
15-12-08, 10:47 PM
^I'm quite aware of that minerva; I truly appreciate it and I never mentioned the opposite :D
I think Sophis Catrina got the essential difference in another post long ago.
In Islamic theology, marriage is a contract. It's just an agreement, an arrangement between people. So it's logical that it should be dissoluble and there should be practical arrangements to make it work.
In Catholic theology, marriage is a sacrament. "A man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they two shall become one flesh. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder."
I'm not going to argue against the Islamic view because that's not my style here.
But for those interested in information, the Catholic view is that in order to BEGIN a marriage, there have to be certain things. One of those things, for example is free consent.
If a father forces a young man to marry his daughter, the young man can say, "There was force. I didn't freely consent. So there really wasn't any marriage in the first place. Just a show."
You don't need a divorce because there wasn't any marriage to begin with.
We call a declaration like that an "annulment", a "decree of nullity". "Nullity" means "nothingness". There was no real marriage to start with.
Besides freedom of choice, in order for the bond of marriage to be truly formed in God's eyes, there has to be a "consummation". Marriage is about physical, not just spiritual, union.
You can't just say, "I promise to give my body to you." You have to actually DO IT for the marriage to BEGIN.
So a man who can never consummate a marriage can never marry.
But if a man BECOMES impotent later, the marriage can't be annulled because of that fact.
The "two have become one flesh."
In Catholic theology, a divorce in such circumstances is meaningless. No matter who says they are no longer man and wife, in God's eyes, they are still man and wife.
That's why Jesus says that if a man divorces and marries a new wife, he commits adultery. Because divorce doesn't WORK.
It's fake.
You can make all the declarations you want. But you are still man and wife.
To many outsiders (and even some insiders) that sounds too tough for reality!
And to many outsiders (and even some insiders) the Muslim view sounds too unbalanced and unfair.
So, we have to disagree.
But we can still approach the matter by trying to see how it looks and feels to those on the other side.
So for Catholics examining a marriage, the question is: Is there a genuine marriage here?
If there is a genuine marriage, there can be no annulment.
There can be a civil divorce to keep peace in extreme cases. But the parties are still married to each other in reality.
So there can be no "remarriage" because that's just adultery.
If a woman is not interested in an impotent husband, she needs to tell him that she wants a divorce...Allah SWT does not like divorce whether the one who demands it is a man or a woman. He also does not like polygamy to be abused for the sexual pleasures of a man...The will to have children, however, is a different case so far as I understand. However, I personally happen to know a Muslim couple who don't have children and have been together for almost a quarter of a century...No polygamy, no divorce. The same goes for many other cases; it doesn't have to be as complicated as it sounds in every case. People aren't always that selfish.
Marriage is not about JUST having kids...It's about love and compassion placed in between two souls by God Himself. It is for that reason that divorce is often termed 'the worst of halal'. If the wife does not WANT her husband to take another wife, she has EVERY RIGHT to DEMAND a divorce as well (You may check this (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1140333531684&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar) fatwa by Sheikh Ahmad Nur for further details).
But thready, look at it outside the box. Look at it from where I am standing.
After 10 years of marriage, a man wants a second wife. First wife does not want that. She decides she absolutely cannot live that way. So her only option is to divorce.
The man goes on and gets his younger little new wife. She ends up a divorcee with little kids to take care of. Is that fair?
Next example.
Wife is sterile. Man can keep his wife and get a second. Wife is rather stuck. I believe sterile women are kinda not as popular in the wife market.
Husband is sterile, wife longs for children. Her only option is either stay without kids or divorce the man she married for a better.. er.. sperm donor.
The husband is given two choices. She is given one.
When the husband is given two choices, both are going to hurt the wife because no matter how you put it, just like no man likes to see his woman with another man, no woman likes to compete with another woman for her man. It's so painful, it physically hurts.
But men don't care cos apparently, they're driven by sex. Or so I'm told.
Please understand that having another wife to someone like me seems as wrong as gay marriages to you. They can both be legal and all.. but in our eyes it doesn't make them right. They can both happen in both our societies, in secret.. and they do... but it seems worse when it's all out in your face and you have to deal with it being an accepted thing, something you can't open your mouth about.
Just think about the last paragraph and see if you can at least understand if for a second just how wrong and detrimental (and unfair) it looks in my eyes.
Just think about the last paragraph and see if you can at least understand if for a second just how wrong and detrimental (and unfair) it looks in my eyes.
That seems fair!
I think that's something Christians and Muslims CAN do for each other...try to see how their religious principles can seem to others who don't share their religion.
BeachBambi
16-12-08, 12:27 PM
Gosh, some of these posts are just too long to read.
As i mentioned a long time ago when we discussed this topic before, an Omani Muslim friend of ours was divorced by his wife when it was discovered that he was unable to father a child. He was devastated and still now harbours bitter feelings towards women because of what happened to him. What made it even worse for him was that this was not an arranged marriage but a 'love marriage' - sadly he soon found out just how much his wife loved him.
On the good side it did make him understand the devastation some women feel when their men divorce them for being barren. Not nice.
Religion and logic aside, but it's in the nature of men to lead and dominate, and in nature of women to care and love.
J4T, it's not that men wrote a book of rules long back which made things as they are today, it just happened, cause it's right.
It happened to an extent that women were inherited when their men died, used for prostitution and sold as commodities.
The first religion that explicitly gave rights and respect to women was Islam, sadly, it is this very religion accused of the opposite!
If a woman is barren, and can't have children.. her husband has 2 options.
Marry another or divorce her.
What options does a woman have if her husband is impotent and cannot produce offspring?
some Evidance says man can use birth pills to make children when woman stomach is full of food. :cute:
Religion and logic aside, but it's in the nature of men to lead and dominate, and in nature of women to care and love.
J4T, it's not that men wrote a book of rules long back which made things as they are today, it just happened, cause it's right.
It happened to an extent that women were inherited when their men died, used for prostitution and sold as commodities.
The first religion that explicitly gave rights and respect to women was Islam, sadly, it is this very religion accused of the opposite!
That's because your 'rights' have not been modernised. 'Man made' rights have surpassed those you say came with islam.
Concubines are still a 'possession used for sex'. Not sure if they are inherited, since they are the objects that 'the right hand possesses'.
Yes. I did say objects.
But this is all beside the point and J4T makes more sense.
Threadlike
16-12-08, 05:19 PM
But thready, look at it outside the box. Look at it from where I am standing.
After 10 years of marriage, a man wants a second wife. First wife does not want that. She decides she absolutely cannot live that way. So her only option is to divorce.
The man goes on and gets his younger little new wife. She ends up a divorcee with little kids to take care of. Is that fair?
Next example.
Wife is sterile. Man can keep his wife and get a second. Wife is rather stuck. I believe sterile women are kinda not as popular in the wife market.
Husband is sterile, wife longs for children. Her only option is either stay without kids or divorce the man she married for a better.. er.. sperm donor.
The husband is given two choices. She is given one.
When the husband is given two choices, both are going to hurt the wife because no matter how you put it, just like no man likes to see his woman with another man, no woman likes to compete with another woman for her man. It's so painful, it physically hurts.
But men don't care cos apparently, they're driven by sex. Or so I'm told.
Please understand that having another wife to someone like me seems as wrong as gay marriages to you. They can both be legal and all.. but in our eyes it doesn't make them right. They can both happen in both our societies, in secret.. and they do... but it seems worse when it's all out in your face and you have to deal with it being an accepted thing, something you can't open your mouth about.
Just think about the last paragraph and see if you can at least understand if for a second just how wrong and detrimental (and unfair) it looks in my eyes.
Oh I can do THAT :p...And I understand how you can find polygamy an obnoxious thing. It's not my 'favorite' thing either, it's not really 'recommended' but simply 'allowed'. In any case, that's not the topic here I guess.
But, to comment on your set options, I tend to agree: The way in which polygamy is abused today was just NEVER the way it was meant to be. Polygamy was supposed to be something men would do FOR the women of the society...not something men do just to GET women. I'm not arguing the argument of, 'Everything's fine. Women have all their rights, thank you very much' cause it ain't realistic...But am I going to argue whether they ARE given their full rights as per Islam? I dare not...I believe my book to be the Ultimate Truth (not me only, but a bunch of other people including women) and even though things may seem a little hard to understand in it at times, who am I to tell God what to set right and what to set wrong?
So is it fair in the first example? If the wife is treated the way a divorced wife has to be treated according to Islam, then yes; it is very fair. Many a times, she is not treated so; with that I agree. But, just to make it clear: Polygamy is not the norm as per Islam. Monogamy is. It is not recommended, or favored...Simply allowed on many limitations placed on the man.
There should never be a case where a wife is 'stuck'. If she wants a divorce, she gets it. That's the RULE. Furthermore, a wife is given a choice to set down whether she wants her husband polygamous or not in her marriage contract. If he goes for polygamy even though it's something he agreed would not do; he can be taken to court.
So, with all that in mind...It means that AS PER THE ISLAM I KNOW, in case of husband sterility:
1) Woman can ask for divorce on grounds that the man is sterile.
2) Woman can ask for divorce on grounds that the man wants to remarry or on grounds of her marriage contract.
In case of the wife's sterility:
2) Husband can remarry.
1) Woman can ask for divorce if she does not wish for polygamy. Her rights are given to her after the divorce.
The options don't HAVE to 'equal'...Once they're there and APPLIED, they WILL do a lot. Currently, and sadly, that is rarely the case.
That's because your 'rights' have not been modernised. 'Man made' rights have surpassed those you say came with islam.
Concubines are still a 'possession used for sex'. Not sure if they are inherited, since they are the objects that 'the right hand possesses'.
Yes. I did say objects.
But this is all beside the point and J4T makes more sense.
The issue of "right hand possesses" has been discussed before. Please look for the thread.
But let me ask you a question that would surely make you think, if you decide to think that is:
Where do you think women are treated as objects more? In Islamic world or in West? In Oman or in USA for example? In Saudi Arabia or EU?
Now think about it deeply. Think about prostitution, and think about the porn industry. Also, think about adultery problem.
You see, it's very primitive to use a word or an example and make conclusions. But we must learn to think deep.
In Islam, women can ask for divorce for such matters
In certain other religions they are not entitled to get a divorce, suffer all your life
The issue of "right hand possesses" has been discussed before. Please look for the thread.
But let me ask you a question that would surely make you think, if you decide to think that is:
Where do you think women are treated as objects more? In Islamic world or in West? In Oman or in USA for example? In Saudi Arabia or EU?
Now think about it deeply. Think about prostitution, and think about the porn industry. Also, think about adultery problem.
You see, it's very primitive to use a word or an example and make conclusions. But we must learn to think deep.
A woman is an object when man is over her, pushing her around, telling her what she can and cannot do. She's an object when her existence is there simply to serve and obey.
Prostitution is everywhere and has been around since men have. And it is also illegal in most countries.
Porn. Hmm.. A woman, by CHOICE, chooses that kind of.. 'work'. That's her choice. What makes her an object? The fact that men are looking at her body?
Does it make her less of an object than a woman who is only wanted around to carry babies, cook, serve and no questions asked?
I see no difference between adultery and poligamy, except that in one case, it's kept hidden because people know it is a wrong and hurtful thing. In the other case, no. You celebrate it, you have kids with your new bed partner and then take them to your barren wife to see.
Yes. It requires deep thought, compassion, and an understanding of what rights are really about.
Which is why, sting, I don't expect you to really see the point being made. :)
Yes. It requires deep thought, compassion, and an understanding of what rights are really about.
Exactly. Which I believe you still lack it when talking about religous teachings.
Polygamy existed since ancient times
Abraham, Solomon, David et al, all practised polygamy
If a woman diagrees with it, she can ask for divorce from her husband
Not being allowed to get a divorce is against basic human rights
Can you confirm that a woman can ask for AND get a divorce if her husband takes a second wife against her wishes ?
And where in the Quran / Sunna / Hadith is this documented ?
A woman can ask for a divorce if she doesn't want to stay in the marriage anymore, same goes for the man
Basic human right present in Islam
Absent in other certain religions
Just like that ? She doesn't want to stay in the marriage anymore and she'll get a divorce ?
And who gets the kids ?
So if a woman is divorcing her husband because she does not wish to be part of a polygamous marriage, who keeps the meher (?) or marriage gifts ?
Threadlike
17-12-08, 01:17 AM
So if a woman is divorcing her husband because she does not wish to be part of a polygamous marriage, who keeps the meher (?) or marriage gifts ?
It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah. so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).
--Surat al Baqara/Chapter 2 (The Cow), verse 229.
That would apply when the man is divorcing the woman.
But this is a reverse situation.
If a woman is barren, and can't have children.. her husband has 2 options.
Marry another or divorce her.
What options does a woman have if her husband is impotent and cannot produce offspring?
Good questions Thalia.
Lets first look at your first statement before attempting to answer the question.
The two options you mentioned are actually the last resort, when all else fails, when nothing can be done to save the marriage, when relatives from both sides have given up, then divorce comes in, before divorce, comes separation, during divorce, there are three chances for divorce, where the couple can get back. So according to Islam, divorce in the most hated 'halal'.
Remarrying? Yes, people do it, but may not do it bec the wife cannot produce, I know a number of Muslim couples who opted to stay without kids, or adapt, or take on one of their relatives kids, or tried so many medical procedures until they succeed, so if you look at our divorce statistics, you will see the reason you mentioned above may be the least significant.
Now to answer your question, there are many reasons as to why woman cannot marry more than one, and if you talk to any woman they would agree. Whatever Quran has stated has a strong logic and reasoning behind it.
To mention a few:
1. Leader
Every ship has a captain, the captaion of the ship can decide when to leave, when to stop, who gets in, who doesnt etc etc etc. If we have more that one captain in a ship, God knows what will happen. Same goes for a company CEO, and of course for a household.
2. Who is dominant
In most species, male are made to be dominant (protects), for examples, a male lion dominates (protects) the herd, if any other male approaches the herd he is has signed his death certificate.
Now imagine these two guys marrying one woman, who will lead the marriage?
Who should dominate?
As I said, these are only a minuscule of reasons, there are many more.
I hope I have explained clearly, sorry did not read some other memebers' replies.
Just like that ? She doesn't want to stay in the marriage anymore and she'll get a divorce ?
And who gets the kids ?
Not just like that GENIUS, it goes through the process, of course :)
marianna
17-12-08, 04:03 PM
Sometimes it's easy to discuss these things when you are not personally touched. My Honduran friend will not divorce her Emeriti husband who took a second wife without her knowledge because she will lose her 3 daughters. So, she choses her children over her own happiness. Is that not also a prison? She has to live her life practically a celibate because she won't have relations with him (and can you blame her) I wouldn't want a man touching me who had his privates inside another woman, touching the other woman and calling her endearing names. That's just inhuman to me and to many other people.
I am not saying Islam condones this but she isn't the only woman married to a Muslim to suffer under such constraints.
Yes, it seems inhuman for a woman to not be able to divorce her husband but in Catholicism we can obtain an annulment and trust me, Catholic or not, if a man touched another woman while married to me he WILL pay through the nose financially and emotionally.
A woman is an object when man is over her, pushing her around, telling her what she can and cannot do. She's an object when her existence is there simply to serve and obey.
And your point is? Not sure where youre going with this...... Like I said before, the problem isnt religion its MEN. Christianity teaches the same principle of obeidiance as Islam. Or did they forget to tell you that in Sunday school?
"I Peter 3: Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. (1 Pet 3:5-7 NIV)
Ephesians 5: Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Colossians 3: Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them
Like I said .... your point is?
Porn. Hmm.. A woman, by CHOICE, chooses that kind of.. 'work'. That's her choice. What makes her an object? The fact that men are looking at her body?
Really? They all make that choice? And it doesnt dehumanize and objectify women? OMG :rolleyes:
http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/porno_y.htm
I see no difference between adultery and poligamy,
Well the difference sweetie is that one is a mortal sin and the other is allowed. Minor point but hey thats the way it is.
Yes. It requires deep thought, compassion, and an understanding of what rights are really about.
You make an excellent point. Have you followed these principles in coming to your decision? BTW i thought the topic was impotent men not religion... perhaps i'll start a new thread:yuk:
Sting,
Since you think you're Einstien, why don't you share some of your genius with us ?
Hijabi.
Whenever a discussion involves Islam, is discussing how other religions are supposedly equally bad the best you can do ?
marianna
17-12-08, 05:35 PM
Usually topics seem to evolve out of other discussions from the same thread and is why we ended up to this point. For myself, I always want to bring in real life examples because it DOES happen irregardless of what people might think......there are issues in Islam just as there are in Christianty because human beings tend to abuse whatever is given to them, including religion.
Well there's a hint in the fact that Thalia opened this thread in the Islamic Sabla.
Threadlike
17-12-08, 06:56 PM
That would apply when the man is divorcing the woman.
But this is a reverse situation.
There is no such thing as a 'woman divorcing a man'.
It simply isn't the way things work.
Khulaa'a is a different matter completely; we're discussing a DIVORCE.
I'm not sure I asked it clearly enough.
Case 1.
A man decides to divorce his wife - for whatever reason - who keeps the meher ?
Case 2.
A woman no longer wants to remain with her husband - for no fault of the man - she files for divorce . Who gets the meher ?
Case 3.
A woman files for divorce because her husband is taking a second wife against her wishes. Who gets the meher ?
I wouldn't want a man touching me who had his privates inside another woman
Marianna, so the only thing that bothers you in this issue is that your husband will be putting his private part into the different orifices of women?
What's wrong with that?
I'm not sure I asked it clearly enough.
Case 1.
A man decides to divorce his wife - for whatever reason - who keeps the meher ?
Case 2.
A woman no longer wants to remain with her husband - for no fault of the man - she files for divorce . Who gets the meher ?
Case 3.
A woman files for divorce because her husband is taking a second wife against her wishes. Who gets the meher ?
Wudjab, pleases stop being so greedy, there are other important things in life & marriage than just money
Thanks for behaving like moderator, Hitty.
Now let Thready answer.
--Surat al Baqara/Chapter 2 (The Cow), verse 229.
This is quite interesting.
So.. is it the same when she is divorcing him?
Also.. how 'halal' is it that when a couple are splitting up, and have been living in a house that essentially belongs to both of them equally, the wife leaves the house with her children because the situation has become unbearable.. and the husband remains in the house.. while the mother and children have to find alternative accomodation. It's all hunky dory for the husband, who never offers to leave the matrimonial home so the wife and children can move in.
What does islam say about living arrangements? Cos, as you have well said.. there's an ocean between what is written, and what actually happens. Between the rights a woman should have and what she actually gets to see.
marianna
17-12-08, 07:35 PM
If a man my dear hitty is so horny like a common animal (like the ever so loveable kalb) that he has to stick his privates in another woman he can have her and she him. I don't condone that kind of behavior. Period.
Threadlike
17-12-08, 08:45 PM
I'm not sure I asked it clearly enough.
Case 1.
A man decides to divorce his wife - for whatever reason - who keeps the meher ?
Case 2.
A woman no longer wants to remain with her husband - for no fault of the man - she files for divorce . Who gets the meher ?
Case 3.
A woman files for divorce because her husband is taking a second wife against her wishes. Who gets the meher ?
There is something known as a 'marriage contract'. During this marriage contract, a woman can easily demand that her husband does not practice polygamy under any circumstance. This is a halal thing to do as a woman cannot enter a marriage without her full consent and conditions. Manipulation against this contract then is something the wife has to take to court and is goverened by the laws of the country itself as to who takes what.
Khula'a is a different matter; it is when a woman pays her husband a sum of money for their separation. This sum of money is obviously, the dowry or in Arabic 'mahr'. Again, this is a matter to be placed in the marriage contract. Her and her husband's rights are decided by a competent court. It's EXTREMELY important to realize that Khula'aa DOES NOT EQUAL an application for divorce...Furthermore, I personally find it not giving women all their rights contained as in the case of divorce.
So in the second case, it will depend on whether the woman files for DIVORCE or for KHULA'A. In the first case, it is the wife. In the last case, it will depend on whether that condition was in the marriage contract or not.
This is quite interesting.
So.. is it the same when she is divorcing him?
Also.. how 'halal' is it that when a couple are splitting up, and have been living in a house that essentially belongs to both of them equally, the wife leaves the house with her children because the situation has become unbearable.. and the husband remains in the house.. while the mother and children have to find alternative accomodation. It's all hunky dory for the husband, who never offers to leave the matrimonial home so the wife and children can move in.
What does islam say about living arrangements? Cos, as you have well said.. there's an ocean between what is written, and what actually happens. Between the rights a woman should have and what she actually gets to see.
Ah, there is no such thing as 'she is divorcing him', that's not Islamically sensible :p
Unfortunately, I can't help you in the living arrangements part as far as I know. You can always ask a scholar for more details (simply submit something to IslamOnline.net or any other moderate Islamic resource on the internet)! However, so far as I understand, a woman is granted to stay in her house during her I'dda Period (three menstrual cycles after the divorce)...If she is pregnant, she stays in her husband's household until she gives birth. The children, even though in the mother's custody, have all their expenses paid by the father as to food, clothes, housing, etc. I'm not, however, sure on who does the housing of the mother. It surely isn't the husband's house, not after I'dda but so far as I remember (and I'm not really sure), the wife does her own housing but the husband takes care of the costs of the housing of the children (and naturally the housing of the wife).
There is this verse (2:231) however which I researched which may answer your query regarding the housing arrangements:
If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim (three menstruations), you shall allow them to live in the same home amicably, or let them leave amicably.
Basically what this verse states is that it allows women the right to choose between staying in their husband's household or leaving and denies men the right to keep them by force. Obviously, country laws of property determine who stays in what. You can't stay in somewhere else if you have your family household registered under your name. You can then obviously 'kick him out' although I do not think that's a very kind thing to do, especially with children.
What this 'system' does when followed right is that it doesn't alienate children from their father. It allows children to at least see their father treating their mother with some respect, even after divorce.
In Islam, there are certain, umbrella rules to go by...Once something goes against them; we cannot call it Islam. So when the Qura'n says that marriage is about compassion; anything in it (even its very dissolution) cannot be done except with compassion. Which is why the Qura'n and Islam has set all those rules for divorce.
Thanks thready, that took some effort and I appreciate it.
One more.
In Islam, if the man files for divorce, does the woman have to accept it for it to be valid ? and vice versa ?
Threadlike
17-12-08, 08:56 PM
Well from my understanding of Islamic rules; you can't have divorce unless it is the intent of the two spouses. It is for this reason there are so many barriers set against divorce, especially with children where family life is majorly affected.
But I'm not really getting you: Why would a woman want to stay with her husband when he wants to leave her? And why would a man want to stay with his wife when she wants to leave him? It should simply be that BOTH of them WANT a divorce from each other which is usually the case.
Because when a man decides to marry a second wife, he really is thinking only of himself.
He doesn't really want a divorce but just wants some 'more' on the side.
So if the woman wants a divorce in these circumstances, what happens if the man refuses ?
Listen2theOcean
17-12-08, 10:33 PM
you like it or not it is still considered Unfair and all the talk about Muslims being Fair to women are just talks. Most if not all the Muslim ladies I’ve gone through consider it unfair but can’t Say anything to men cuZ men use Quran 4 fulfilling their solo needs denying their Women needs and Women can’t be honest about it cuz they Will be considered out of religion
you like it or not it is still considered Unfair and all the talk about Muslims being Fair to women are just talks. Most if not all the Muslim ladies I’ve gone through consider it unfair but can’t Say anything to men cuZ men use Quran 4 fulfilling their solo needs denying their Women needs and Women can’t be honest about it cuz they Will be considered out of religion
...and i didn't even pay her to say that...
L2TO, thank you for putting a thread into a paragraph.
Threadlike
17-12-08, 10:56 PM
Because when a man decides to marry a second wife, he really is thinking only of himself.
He doesn't really want a divorce but just wants some 'more' on the side.
So if the woman wants a divorce in these circumstances, what happens if the man refuses ?
Well, we're back then to square one. You don't go INTO a marriage just like that...Without setting conditions. If a section denying the husband polygamous marriages is not there in the marriage contract then the wife, in this case, is trapped with simply the option of khula'a so far as I understood your point.
you like it or not it is still considered Unfair and all the talk about Muslims being Fair to women are just talks. Most if not all the Muslim ladies I’ve gone through consider it unfair but can’t Say anything to men cuZ men use Quran 4 fulfilling their solo needs denying their Women needs and Women can’t be honest about it cuz they Will be considered out of religion
You know, I like your distinction...
But I'm wondering what you're referring to with the 'it' here. Islamic rules of marriage and divorce or the treatment of the Muslim women you met by Muslim men?
Whether something is Islam or not is judged by neither the wife nor the husband but by the unanimous decision of scholars. So you really can't just tell them, 'You're out of religion', no one has that authority but Allah SWT. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're wrong; this DOES happen and it happens a LOT.
Seriously TL, you really expect a muslim woman living in say, Pakistan or Yemen to ensure she has a marriage contract that will protect her rights in case her husband decides to marry another woman ?
You seriously believe that ?
Threadlike
17-12-08, 11:07 PM
^Obviously not and yes, that has to change; I never disputed that fact. Where ignorance and illiteracy spreads, there will be ignorance and illiteracy of everything, including religion, its laws and blind culture spread out as religious duty.
But every other Muslim woman I have personally met had a marriage contract and all the marriage documentations I've attended include a clear section on conditions of the wife. It isn't just something hypothetical and it isn't just a piece of paper.
It's true. I remember clearly when visiting the in-laws how religion was brought into almost every single thing everyone did. And it was used to bring about the feeling of shame.
Like, shame on you for saying that/questioning God's word/thinking out loud.
Eib!! EIB!!
Well, we're back then to square one. You don't go INTO a marriage just like that...Without setting conditions. If a section denying the husband polygamous marriages is not there in the marriage contract then the wife, in this case, is trapped with simply the option of khula'a so far as I understood your point.
You know, I like your distinction...
But I'm wondering what you're referring to with the 'it' here. Islamic rules of marriage and divorce or the treatment of the Muslim women you met by Muslim men?
Whether something is Islam or not is judged by neither the wife nor the husband but by the unanimous decision of scholars. So you really can't just tell them, 'You're out of religion', no one has that authority but Allah SWT. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're wrong; this DOES happen and it happens a LOT.
That would be perfect
if
we could find an unanimous decision of scholars.
Threadlike
17-12-08, 11:11 PM
^Go ask every one of them if they believe Allah is the only God worth worshiping...
Fair enough :hyper:?
Fine fine, it was a tongue slip. I meant a 'majority' decision. That's a lot more common.
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