View Full Version : What would be harsh?
Woman stoned to death (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=87&art_id=vn20081029092418911C179082)
Islam is not harsh.
I find it great. There's absolutely nothing that compares to its beauty in my eyes...Sometimes I wish I was a convert to Islam though. But anyhow, thank God for His blessing!
sorry its not harsh at all!
ppl are
A few comments from the "Islam harsh" thread. There are many more.
My question is ... just exactly what would be considered "harsh" if digging a hole and putting a woman in it and pelting her with rocks until she is dead is not harsh?
There is a diffference between harsh and strict. I see Islam has very strict punishment for such horrible sins. They may seem harsh for those who commit the sins but this would definitly give a warning for others not to do the same.
Besides, the word harsh differs from one person to another. You know what I find harsh in religions ? When you say Jesus is God, I consider this harsh Judgement to the real and only God, Allah.
So saying harsh depends from one to another.
^ Well said, and my thoughts exactly.
^
^^
I understand ...
My question is ... just exactly what would be considered "harsh"
Ask the ones who said it's harsh
Threadlike
30-10-08, 03:25 PM
^
^^
I understand ...
What's NOT beautiful about justice?
Harsh is when EVERYTHING aims to make lives harder. When it's THERE for people to suffer more than for their own good.
If you find that throwing someone in jail for the rest of their life (when they kill someone) to rot, age and slowly die is more merciful than killing them for it then I think you have quite a different definition of harsh. Justice ALWAYS seems harsh...To those who have lived in its grace for such a long time.
FAITH86
30-10-08, 03:29 PM
Let's have a look at the contemporary law that's been practiced almost all over the world.
Do you find the death penalties given to people who deserve it harsh?
You'd say no, I suppose. And that's exactly our take in this issue.
What's NOT beautiful about justice?
Harsh is when EVERYTHING aims to make lives harder. When it's THERE for people to suffer more than for their own good.
If you find that throwing someone in jail for the rest of their life (when they kill someone) to rot, age and slowly die is more merciful than killing them for it then I think you have quite a different definition of harsh. Justice ALWAYS seems harsh...To those who have lived in its grace for such a long time.Ok thready gave us one ...
Life in prison is harsh.
Stoning to death is "justice" ... and beautiful.
Jack, I suppose most people try to think deeper than you do, that's why they understand why Islam is not harsh at all.
We have discussed this law and others many times in other threads, why don't you read around :)
I feel it's just the coldness of this case that causes people to stop and think. The pure brutality.......
Even if a person has committed a crime of the highest order, DON'T give them a slow torturous death, finish it off once and for all.
I guess no religion endorses torture to any creature, or killing a child by firing.
2 cents.
Threadlike
30-10-08, 05:19 PM
Ok thready gave us one ...
Life in prison is harsh.
Stoning to death is "justice" ... and beautiful.
I don't understand if it's just your need to make a point or it's just your hobby to twist around what I say.
I clearly stated that justice always sounds harsh so long as you do no need it.
If God forbid your son/wife/relative is murdered, you wouldn't hesitate in placing whoever did this in jail for the longest time possible. To others that will look harsh, to you it will simply look right. I wouldn't hesitate in attempting to get the judicial system to kill him. Whatever you have done, you are rewarded in a manner that is in accordance to the enormity of the act, that is justice simplified and that is the form of Godly justice that Allah SWT takes to Himself (Chapter 99, verses 7-8). If you think adultery is 'normal' then arguing with you is pointless. If you think it's something 'okay' then arguing with you is, again, going to prove pointless.
Come on. There is no comparison really. Killing a person by throwing stones at them.. cutting their head off , hand off or whatever.. it's all barbaric and yes, harsh. There is nothing wrong with admitting what is.
Come on now Thready, read the original post :
"The stoning was totally irreligious and illogical," said Dhuhulow's sister, who asked not to be named.
"Islam does not execute a woman for adultery unless four witnesses and the man with whom she committed sex are brought forward publicly," she said.
Dhuhulow was placed in a hole up to her neck for the execution late on Monday in front of hundreds of people in a square of this southern port, which the Islamist insurgents captured in August.
"A woman in a green veil and black mask was brought in a car as we waited to watch the merciless act of stoning," one resident, Abdullahi Aden, said.
"We were told she submitted herself to be punished, yet we could see her screaming as she was forcibly bound, legs and hands. A relative of hers ran towards her, but the Islamists opened fire and killed a child."
Stones were hurled at Dhuhulow's head, and the woman was brought out of the hole three times to see if she had died
Threadlike
30-10-08, 05:44 PM
Come on. There is no comparison really. Killing a person by throwing stones at them.. cutting their head off , hand off or whatever.. it's all barbaric and yes, harsh. There is nothing wrong with admitting what is.
What ********.
And leaving them in jail to rot is just regular...There's nothing that 'barbaric' about that!
wudjab, I was talking on the Islamic rule of sharia'a against adultery. Nowhere did I state that I thought that such laws were practiced correctly according to the way they should be practiced and how they should be practiced. We have discussed THAT about a zillion times in other threads.
But now we are falling into the usual minefield of 'wrong implementation'.
Please describe how a stoning would be conducted correctly according to sharia law.
What ********.
And leaving them in jail to rot is just regular...There's nothing that 'barbaric' about that!
wudjab, I was talking on the Islamic rule of sharia'a against adultery. Nowhere did I state that I thought that such laws were practiced correctly according to the way they should be practiced and how they should be practiced. We have discussed THAT about a zillion times in other threads.
Taking someone's freedom away and taking someone's life away is exactly the same, yes. :yes:
Even taking someone's life by lethal injection and taking someone's life by pelting them with rocks in the head until they're dead. Exactly the same, Aha. Yup.
Personally I'm against the death penalty but there are some cases where the crime is so heinous that maybe putting them to death would be appropriate.
Threadlike
30-10-08, 05:57 PM
Taking someone's freedom away and taking someone's life away is exactly the same, yes. :yes:
Even taking someone's life by lethal injection and taking someone's life by pelting them with rocks in the head until they're dead. Exactly the same, Aha. Yup.
Meh. Let's make this a yes/no so it's an easy answer: You truly believe the psychological agony of dying slowly in jail is less agonizing than getting your head cut off? You REALLY think there's a HUGE difference between the two?
P.S: You hopefully understand that through lethal injection you are paralyzed by a paralytic injection before being able to express your pain. In other words, you die slowly, in pain, without being able to express it at all. Death doesn't come usually in 'Nice' mode.
No.
The execution team is either in a separate room or behind a curtain and cannot be seen by witnesses or the condemned. In some cases, the executioners may wear a hood to conceal their identity. At the warden's signal, the execution team will begin injecting lethal doses of two or three drugs into the IVs. Some states use multiple executioners, all of whom inject drugs into an IV tube -- but only one of the executioners is actually delivering the lethal injection. None of the executioners know who has delivered the lethal dose and who has injected drugs into a dummy bag.
The drugs are administered, in this order:
Anesthetic - Sodium thiopental, which has the trademark name Pentothal, puts the inmate into a deep sleep. This drug is a barbiturate that induces general anesthesia when administered intravenously. It can reach effective clinical concentrations in the brain within 30 seconds, according to an Amnesty International report. For surgical operations, patients are given a dose of 100 to 150 milligrams over a period of 10 to 15 seconds. For executions, as many as 5 grams (5,000 mg) of Pentothal may be administered. This in itself is a lethal dose. It's believed by some that after this anesthetic is delivered, the inmate doesn't feel anything.
Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.
Paralyzing agent - Pancuronium bromide, also known as Pavulon, is a muscle relaxant that is given in a dose that stops breathing by paralyzing the diaphragm and lungs. Conventionally, this drug takes effect in one to three minutes after being injected. In many states, this drug is given in doses of up to 100 milligrams, a much higher dose than is used in surgical operations -- usually 40 to 100 micrograms per one kilogram of body weight. Other chemicals that can be used as a paralyzing agent include tubocurarine chloride and succinylcholine chloride.
Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.
Toxic agent (not used by all states) - Potassium chloride is given at a lethal dose in order to interrupt the electrical signaling essential to heart functions. This induces cardiac arrest.
Within a minute or two after the last drug is administered, a physician or medical technician declares the inmate dead. The amount of time between when the prisoner leaves the holding cell and when he or she is declared dead may be just 30 minutes. Death usually occurs anywhere from five to 18 minutes after the execution order is given. After the execution, the body is placed in a body bag and taken to medical examiner, who may perform an autopsy. It is then either claimed by the inmate's family or interred by the state.
Much better than having one's head separated from ones body.
Threadlike
30-10-08, 06:14 PM
No.
The execution team is either in a separate room or behind a curtain and cannot be seen by witnesses or the condemned. In some cases, the executioners may wear a hood to conceal their identity. At the warden's signal, the execution team will begin injecting lethal doses of two or three drugs into the IVs. Some states use multiple executioners, all of whom inject drugs into an IV tube -- but only one of the executioners is actually delivering the lethal injection. None of the executioners know who has delivered the lethal dose and who has injected drugs into a dummy bag.
The drugs are administered, in this order:
Anesthetic - Sodium thiopental, which has the trademark name Pentothal, puts the inmate into a deep sleep. This drug is a barbiturate that induces general anesthesia when administered intravenously. It can reach effective clinical concentrations in the brain within 30 seconds, according to an Amnesty International report. For surgical operations, patients are given a dose of 100 to 150 milligrams over a period of 10 to 15 seconds. For executions, as many as 5 grams (5,000 mg) of Pentothal may be administered. This in itself is a lethal dose. It's believed by some that after this anesthetic is delivered, the inmate doesn't feel anything.
Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.
Paralyzing agent - Pancuronium bromide, also known as Pavulon, is a muscle relaxant that is given in a dose that stops breathing by paralyzing the diaphragm and lungs. Conventionally, this drug takes effect in one to three minutes after being injected. In many states, this drug is given in doses of up to 100 milligrams, a much higher dose than is used in surgical operations -- usually 40 to 100 micrograms per one kilogram of body weight. Other chemicals that can be used as a paralyzing agent include tubocurarine chloride and succinylcholine chloride.
Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.
Toxic agent (not used by all states) - Potassium chloride is given at a lethal dose in order to interrupt the electrical signaling essential to heart functions. This induces cardiac arrest.
Within a minute or two after the last drug is administered, a physician or medical technician declares the inmate dead. The amount of time between when the prisoner leaves the holding cell and when he or she is declared dead may be just 30 minutes. Death usually occurs anywhere from five to 18 minutes after the execution order is given. After the execution, the body is placed in a body bag and taken to medical examiner, who may perform an autopsy. It is then either claimed by the inmate's family or interred by the state.
Much better than having one's head separated from ones body.
The whole controversy of lethal injection lies in the bold parts above:
1) The thiopental is an ultra-short barbiturate; in other words: It can easily wear off in certain cases leading to a terrible painful death due to the other bold part:
2) The paralytic agent which paralyses the diaphragm and the lungs; screwing up your breathing.
Which explains why I stated in my earlier post that during lethal injection you may:
You are paralyzed by a paralytic injection before being able to express your pain. In other words, you die slowly, in pain, without being able to express it at all.
But anyhow man; I've never really tried getting my head cut off or lethal injection so I can never really tell you which one's 'better'.
The person is declared dead within 2 minutes.
So even if it wore of quickly, it wouldn't within 2 minutes.
Threadlike
30-10-08, 06:18 PM
^Um...No? Your source states:
Death usually occurs anywhere from five to 18 minutes after the execution order is given.
Thats from the time the EXECUTION ORDER is given.. meaning the time the order is received and the prisoner is take to the execution room and the other paperwork is done.
Threadlike
30-10-08, 06:35 PM
^Um so what is THAT one for then:
The amount of time between when the prisoner leaves the holding cell and when he or she is declared dead may be just 30 minutes.
The two minute interval you're referring to is from when 'the last drug is administered'. Not from when the first drug is administered.
Okay, I'll have to look that up some more.
But you didn't answer this one :
Please describe how a stoning would be conducted correctly according to sharia law
marianna
30-10-08, 07:15 PM
Nitpicking isn't going to make people change. Christians are still going to continue to believe in the Trinity and Islam will have its own views regarding the Trinity and criminal punishment. This thread won't change our views so pointing fingers will generate animosity.
Threadlike
30-10-08, 07:25 PM
Okay, I'll have to look that up some more.
http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1193705
But you didn't answer this one :
Please describe how a stoning would be conducted correctly according to sharia law
If it were up to Sharia Law, you would see a stoning every 100 years. The conditions for it application are so strict, so rare and more importantly really unlikely.
In any case though, stonings are supposed to be carried out for purification of a person more than to cause pain or death if that's what you're after... Mohammed Qutb says it best:
Islam imposes preventive punishments, which may appear cruel or coarse if viewed superficially or without proper consideration. But Islam does not execute such punishments unless it ascertains that the crime was not justifiable or that the criminal was not acting under any obligation. Islam prescribes that both adulterer and adulteress should be stoned but it does not inflict such punishment unless they are married persons and upon conclusive evidence by four eyewitnesses.
Moreover, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)said: “Avoid the execution of punishments if there is doubt.”
Threadlike
30-10-08, 07:27 PM
Nitpicking isn't going to make people change. Christians are still going to continue to believe in the Trinity and Islam will have its own views regarding the Trinity and criminal punishment. This thread won't change our views so pointing fingers will generate animosity.
You know sometimes I wanna say that then I just feel guilty about not trying to defend that which I truly believe in.
*sigh* The tough part is that you're really quite right.
marianna
30-10-08, 07:30 PM
I think the past few days of frustration dealing with an ailing parent is making me see life differently Threadlike. I just don't want to waste any more of my life hating.
MissKindy
30-10-08, 10:57 PM
I don't find it harsh at all
She's better stoned then being locked up for a few months and when she's out she's back to doing the same sin over and over again
To me it's the right punishment for that sin
Did you miss the part where the rules that require 4 witnesses were not followed ?
um_amira
31-10-08, 12:01 AM
How they just stone someone to death ? .... :no: That is not Islam
My Dad's cousin told me yesterday when he went to hajj, there was a sunni guy who was so proud of himself , he kept saying " I dont need to worry about anything, Im not scared of anything! I killed 8 shia's, Im going to to heaven ! "
3alek allah.. for the love of god.. killing other muslims is a way to heaven ?
marianna
31-10-08, 12:11 AM
^^Crap that is so sad and at hajj.....killing a fellow muslim and to proclaim such a victory in a holy place. Sad and I don't understand that mentality either.
I don't find it harsh at all
She's better stoned then being locked up for a few months and when she's out she's back to doing the same sin over and over again
To me it's the right punishment for that sin
Thats why there is divorce.
Lets change the name to Extreme Sabla.
Coming back to this case, apparently she is supposed to have committed adultery with a man.
Why did this system of justice not punish him as well ?
Threadlike
31-10-08, 05:01 PM
Coming back to this case, apparently she is supposed to have committed adultery with a man.
Why did this system of justice not punish him as well ?
Maybe because the people who applied it don't really give a **** about justice?
Or perhaps because this was carried out by 'militants' rather than a 'system of justice'?
If you had an affair, should you be killed with rocks?
If you stole something, should you have your hand amputated?
You decide!
If my religion says so, then yes I do deserve :yes:
Why not just say that punishing someone by stoning them to death is harsh, but sometimes God needs to be harsh in order to achieve justice.
It's hard to imagine anything harsher than that.
I mean, if you took religion out of the picture and said, "Is smashing someone to death with stones harsh?", I think everyone would agree: it's harsh.
If harsh means not fair, then I don't hink it's harsh
If it means painful then yes I agree it's so painful that our prophet :PBUH: himself was trying to avoid doing it.
But everything has consequences and the adultery consequences is this. And muslims know it.
DarK PrincesS
01-11-08, 06:39 PM
It's God's Rules..He Created Us and He Knows how to discipline Us BETTER..So Just Follow the rules..WE have No right to decide where it's harsh or not..
MissKindy
01-11-08, 06:47 PM
Thats why there is divorce.
Please like if she's divorced she'll feel all guilty and sad. that might give her the chance to be even more free now that she's not comitted :mmhmm:
I wont change my answer it is not harsh it's fair for her and it gives her the chance to ask forgiveness from Allah that way her sin will be forgiven inshallah but still she has to be stoned and that's that :)
but still she has to be stoned and that's that :)
It's kind of creepy to smile when you're talking about wanting to kill someone :)
MissKindy
01-11-08, 06:58 PM
Lol the smile was to bring some sort of comfort to what i was saying :angel:
Does that mean you were uncomfortable with what you were saying ?
:)
MissKindy
01-11-08, 07:32 PM
How shall i know ...but yeah maybe and maybe not :)
minerva
01-11-08, 07:39 PM
a 13 yr old somalian was raped.
and stoned for adultery.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/01/amnesty.rape.somalia.ap/index.html
Please like if she's divorced she'll feel all guilty and sad. that might give her the chance to be even more free now that she's not comitted :mmhmm:
I wont change my answer it is not harsh it's fair for her and it gives her the chance to ask forgiveness from Allah that way her sin will be forgiven inshallah but still she has to be stoned and that's that :)
I think preserving human life is more important.
Threadlike
01-11-08, 08:09 PM
a 13 yr old somalian was raped.
and stoned for adultery.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/01/amnesty.rape.somalia.ap/index.html
Now why am I not surprised that Somalia isn't the best when it comes to applying Sharia'a Laws?
MissKindy, what you're implying is quite senseless.
This case is quite specific. The woman was convicted of adultery without witnesses and with no proper look into evidence.
That is unjust and a terrible act of brutality.
minerva
01-11-08, 08:11 PM
Now why am I not surprised that Somalia isn't the best when it comes to applying Sharia'a Laws?
you know what i'd wish for....
the other muslim countries to tell somalia to stop not being the best when it comes to applying sharia's laws....
oh well i just wanted to share (yet another) sad story, unfortunately the name of religion is in the midst of it. and the victim a 13 year old girl. bad enough she was raped.
MissKindy
01-11-08, 08:12 PM
I think preserving human life is more important.
That's your openion :)
Threadlike
01-11-08, 08:15 PM
you know what i'd wish for....
the other muslim countries to tell somalia to stop not being the best when it comes to applying sharia's laws....
oh well i just wanted to share (yet another) sad story, unfortunately the name of religion is in the midst of it. and the victim a 13 year old girl. bad enough she was raped.
Oh well that's what I'd wish for as well. It's quite heart-breaking, I agree.
MissKindy
01-11-08, 08:33 PM
Now why am I not surprised that Somalia isn't the best when it comes to applying Sharia'a Laws?
MissKindy, what you're implying is quite senseless.
This case is quite specific. The woman was convicted of adultery without witnesses and with no proper look into evidence.
That is unjust and a terrible act of brutality.
Sorry to burst your bubble but i wasn't talking about her case sepecifically!
I'm talking about the punishment in Islam when committing that sin :)
you know what i'd wish for....
the other muslim countries to tell somalia to stop not being the best when it comes to applying sharia's laws....
oh well i just wanted to share (yet another) sad story, unfortunately the name of religion is in the midst of it. and the victim a 13 year old girl. bad enough she was raped.
Why don't you tell the other christian countries to stop Israel who's planted by a christian country to stop killing ( thousands of 13 years ol children ) for the name of religion ?
What's in Islam concerns muslims and only muslims. Religion is not compulsary. Anyone who thinks it's harsh for adulterers to die can not embrace Islam and commit adultery as much s/he wishes.
Your religion allows drinking. Some people drink and get drunk then kill innocents ( including 13 years old children ). Don't you think this is harsh as well? I mean allowing drinking alcohol and wine ? Not mentioning the hundreds of families to be destroyed by a drunk husband or wife.
However, I don't agree with what somalia did for the little girl, as Threadlike said. There should be witnesses and the person should be mature enough to realise the punishment.
minerva
01-11-08, 10:11 PM
my goodness el rey...do you think i stand for any killing? i'm against any killing, especially that done in the name of God. and yes, that 13 yr old is my business, whether she was killed for religious reasons or otherwise. same as with the poor palestinian children. i don't agree with the slaughtering of them either.
as to drink driving etc....i'm against it as well. wife beating/husband murder against it too.
The question asked is what would be harsh ... stoning is not harsh ... ok
Since no one can seem to come up with a harsh punishment except Thready ... how bout burning at the stake. Would that be harsh?
Would it be inline with 21st century punishments as stoning is for Islam.
I think someone mentioned here already that 4 witnesses are needed in order for the stoning punishment to take place. And if they evidences are not enough, those who accused men/women of adultery are to be lashed.
Now who would commit adultery in front of 4 witnesses? Unless they are sinning in public.
I notice from my readings in the stories of the holy books (Quraan, Bible) that God only punishes those who commit sins in public and brag about it. So that is why in my opinion, if I was caught committing adultery* in front of 4 witness then I deserve the death penalty :yes:
*Stoning is only applies when the adulterers are married. If they were not married then they are to be lashed.
Now don't tell me people in Somalia did this and people in Pakistan did that. The rule is crystal clear, and hell yeah it is fair. If people manipulate it then we shouldn't be claiming that it is the religion's fault.
my goodness el rey...do you think i stand for any killing? i'm against any killing, especially that done in the name of God. and yes, that 13 yr old is my business, whether she was killed for religious reasons or otherwise. same as with the poor palestinian children. i don't agree with the slaughtering of them either.
as to drink driving etc....i'm against it as well. wife beating/husband murder against it too.
No minerva, I just see it ironic when you guys try to highlight things in one religion and ignore others about another one though they are both the same. Just like saying hey look this glass is half full and ignoring that it's half empty at the same time.
Religions came to solve problems and make people better and this won't happen unless there are some strict rules and punishments. The theif will difenetly see cutting hands for stealing harsh but s/he won't see stealing precious things from others as harsh. This goes to married women and men who betray the faith of marriage and true love for temporary lust where the only victims are their children which is harsh.
minerva
01-11-08, 11:30 PM
war is one thing. organised stoning of a kid is another and that was i was commenting about.
rules of comparison : compare like with like.
find me a story where a christian community stones a child and i'll condemn it as well. i don't wear blinkers el rey.
Stoning a woman AND firing at her child when he/she rushes to see her...............wow.
And all this, after the woman has voluntarily given herself in for the crime. I feel that is the part where some damn mercy should have been shown. If she's felt guilty, and given in, FFS give her something less stern.
Had said earlier elsewhere, hate anything starting with an R. Just gives an excuse to kill and hate each other.
Again, just my 2 cents.
war is one thing. organised stoning of a kid is another and that was i was commenting about.
rules of comparison : compare like with like.
find me a story where a christian community stones a child and i'll condemn it as well. i don't wear blinkers el rey.
I did not approve stoning the kid. And my example was pretty much similar, you just didn't get my point.
Drinking is allowed in your religion, getting drunk is not.
Stoning married women with four whitnesses is the punishment for adulterers, stoning 13 years old kid is not.
And ah please, muslim children are getting stoned by bullets by christians and without comitting any sin and I know you condemn it, it's just not as much as you condemn some Islamic rules.
minerva
01-11-08, 11:45 PM
no, i condemn every action that gets reported and talked about over here.
over here when a kid gets raped she gets counselling and treatment, and the perpetators get given minimum of 7 years jail. not stoned.
glad you agree.
Towelie
01-11-08, 11:55 PM
In European countries and North america, frauders and people exploiting their powers to gain money in unethical ways get same or maybe harsher punishment than murderers.
Why don't you tell the other christian countries to stop Israel who's planted by a christian country to stop killing ( thousands of 13 years ol children ) for the name of religion ?
What's in Islam concerns muslims and only muslims. Religion is not compulsary. Anyone who thinks it's harsh for adulterers to die can not embrace Islam and commit adultery as much s/he wishes.
Your religion allows drinking. Some people drink and get drunk then kill innocents ( including 13 years old children ). Don't you think this is harsh as well? I mean allowing drinking alcohol and wine ? Not mentioning the hundreds of families to be destroyed by a drunk husband or wife.
However, I don't agree with what somalia did for the little girl, as Threadlike said. There should be witnesses and the person should be mature enough to realise the punishment.
Ah, but there's the catch.
You see, Islam is a one way street.
Once you're in you can't get out.
Unless you want to do so as a corpse.
Therefore, pretty much the same fate awaits you, whether you commit adultery or wish to leave Islam.
Oh so those who converted from Islam to christianity were killed ? Believe me no one will do anything to them. It's their faith, their choice. They just shouldn't play with religions.
Are you saying that if a muslim no longer wants to remain a muslim they can just leave ?
With no consequences ?
Haven't we discussed this question so many times in here ? You can search the topic and see my answer to this question there.
And when I say, they can. I mean they can. Now.
toxic_honey
02-11-08, 01:00 AM
Woman stoned to death (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=87&art_id=vn20081029092418911C179082)
A few comments from the "Islam harsh" thread. There are many more.
My question is ... just exactly what would be considered "harsh" if digging a hole and putting a woman in it and pelting her with rocks until she is dead is not harsh?
u have no point LOL
NO ITS not harsh
having sex with a man to another like a stupid doll is harsh
and have kids with no fathers is HARSH
living like animals is harsh
Islam is protecting us from all this al7amdulillah :)
toxic_honey
02-11-08, 01:04 AM
a 13 yr old somalian was raped.
and stoned for adultery.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/01/amnesty.rape.somalia.ap/index.html
honey think a bit if you dont know about islam
dot just say things u have NO clue about
ISLAM didnt tell us to do that
this is not something Muslims can do
those are some ppl who think they are following the right rules
and they know nothing
thats why i said Islam is not harsh PEOPLE ARE
Threadlike
02-11-08, 01:34 AM
honey think a bit if you dont know about islam
dot just say things u have NO clue about
ISLAM didnt tell us to do that
this is not something Muslims can do
those are some ppl who think they are following the right rules
and they know nothing
thats why i said Islam is not harsh PEOPLE ARE
You know I don't get why everyone is picking on minerva.
She didn't say something she invented.
She shared a story she found terrible.
And then said she wished stuff like that never happened.
She never said anything related to Islam, Islamic punishment or anything of the sort...Yet everyone seemed to jump to immediate conclusions.
Are you saying that if a muslim no longer wants to remain a muslim they can just leave ?
With no consequences ?
Absolutely and with no fear. In theory of course.
Is that put in application whenever Muslims are found? I'm afraid not.
minerva
02-11-08, 04:44 AM
thanks threadlike...
i didn't imply anything related to islam. i only related a story where some people used religion as an excuse to kill an innocent girl.
Thread chill out no one was picking on minerva. It's just a friendly discussion :cute::D
Resident Evil
02-11-08, 03:44 PM
there are always consequences ........ Action = consequence
toxic_honey
02-11-08, 05:27 PM
we dont pick on her
but it makes me upset to see ppl put here some stuff to make a fuzz
and say this is how we are
if you are sad that things like that happen talk about in in general not here!!! :os
minerva
02-11-08, 08:16 PM
we dont pick on her
but it makes me upset to see ppl put here some stuff to make a fuzz
and say this is how we are
if you are sad that things like that happen talk about in in general not here!!! :os
so the article i posted didn't have to do with this topic then?
Thats the problem thready.
There's this HUGE gulf between what Islam is supposed to be and what Islam is in practice.
Until that is bridged, it will continue to be harsh.
toxic_honey
04-11-08, 11:42 PM
so the article i posted didn't have to do with this topic then?
yup didnt :)
coz there is a difference between ppl getting islam wrong and do wrong acts which is not IN Islam
and how you think its harsh or not ;)
Can you point us in the direction of a country that is doing things correctly in the name of Islam ?
^ none..i think.
question though, what are we talking about here? Sharia Law? or the way Sharia Law is conducted by certain societies/countries? because they're two different things.
i already said what i think in the 'how harsh do you think Islam is' thread. i think Islam is somewhat harsh, yes. but it accommodates human nature.
so, stoning a 13 year old who's been raped to death is WRONG! the poor girl should've been consolled, not killed! that's definitely unIslamic. but stoning a woman who's commited adultrey and managed to get herself 4 witnesses, then she pretty much deserves the death penalty.
What I don't get in this discussion is that people don't seem to understand the question.
Sometimes, punishments may be harsh, but deserved.
I believe that murderers should be executed.
I think that's just.
But how can I deny that it is harsh?
Punishments can range on a continuum from mild to harsh.
If my child tells a lie, I can scold him: "Bad boy, don't do that!"
On the other hand, I can spank him with a belt on his bare bottom.
Which one is harsh and which one is mild?
We don't have any problem telling the answer to this question.
If you simply went around to a group of people without mentioning adultery and without mentioning Islam and you asked...
Rank these punishments for harshness:
1. A fine.
2. A day in jail.
3. A year in jail.
4. Death by lethal injection.
5. Being beaten to death.
Anyone would have an easy time ranking these. It's 1 to 5, from milder to harsher.
The question of harshness isn't a question of justice.
It's a question of severity.
You can deserve a harsh punishment sometimes.
If you ask people, "Should mass murderers be punished harshly or mildly?" they will say: "Harshly!"
Some people might argue that stoning someone to death is so horrific that it can never be deserved by anyone.
But that's a different argument.
It's easy enough to say that stoning to death is harsh, but adulterers deserve it. You can argue that people in modern societies have forgotten the horrific effects of adultery and that's why they cannot imagine that stoning is a just penalty.
But it strikes me as silly to say that stoning is not harsh. Of course it's harsh!
Threadlike
05-11-08, 12:25 AM
^I'm not catching you fully.
If it's harsh and it's just, is it bad? No.
So what's the big deal to say it's just though it may look harsh?
The religion is TOTALLY just in my own opinion...Is it harsh? Whenever that is needed to accommodate our own natures and for our own good; it may look like it is. The same way that I would think scolding a kid for telling a lie is 'too harsh' and that you should really talk him into telling the truth rather than scold him for telling a lie which is of course, as you implied, a different matter. Bottom line being is that God does not hate us.
minerva
05-11-08, 12:29 AM
i'm glad all of you disagree with the stoning of the girl who got raped. whether it is sanctioned by religion or not, it was done by a religious group, and they, in my opinion, should be talked about and exposed by the muslims themselves to tell the rest of the world 'we are not this' 'these are not us'.
^ none..i think.
question though, what are we talking about here? Sharia Law? or the way Sharia Law is conducted by certain societies/countries? because they're two different things.
i already said what i think in the 'how harsh do you think Islam is' thread. i think Islam is somewhat harsh, yes. but it accommodates human nature.
so, stoning a 13 year old who's been raped to death is WRONG! the poor girl should've been consolled, not killed! that's definitely unIslamic. but stoning a woman who's commited adultrey and managed to get herself 4 witnesses, then she pretty much deserves the death penalty.
I agree.
And I'm glad that many Muslims think so! :)
But it's important to understand the reasoning that Islamic judges who sentence such people to death use. Why, for example, are women who have accused people of rape in jail in Pakistan?
Four people must show adultery in order for someone to be punished. Four people must show rape in order for someone to be punished.
But the calculus for adultery changes if:
1. You admit it.
2. You are caught having sex.
Suppose you accuse someone of rape? Part of that is an admission that you had sex...but you were unwilling, you were forced.
If you make an accusation of rape and you can't prove it, you have admitted already to having sex. If it wasn't rape, then it had to have been voluntary. In which case, it is adultery.
And: you have admitted it.
Now this is the legal analysis used in such places.
I'm happy if Muslims too reject it. But some Muslims embrace it and put it into practice. And they argue that this is Islamic.
Threadlike
05-11-08, 12:37 AM
I agree.
And I'm glad that many Muslims think so! :)
But it's important to understand the reasoning that Islamic judges who sentence such people to death use. Why, for example, are women who have accused people of rape in jail in Pakistan?
Four people must show adultery in order for someone to be punished. Four people must show rape in order for someone to be punished.
But the calculus for adultery changes if:
1. You admit it.
2. You are caught having sex.
Suppose you accuse someone of rape? Part of that is an admission that you had sex...but you were unwilling, you were forced.
If you make an accusation of rape and you can't prove it, you have admitted already to having sex. If it wasn't rape, then it had to have been voluntary. In which case, it is adultery.
And: you have admitted it.
Now this is the legal analysis used in such places.
I'm happy if Muslims too reject it. But some Muslims embrace it and put it into practice. And they argue that this is Islamic.
That legal analysis is pure ******** and it is obviously NOT Islamic Law...Most (I'm tempted to say 'all' but I know there are always a bunch of crazies somewhere out there) Muslims DO disagree with it. The 'legal system' used in the stoning of this girl is nothing but a militant-applied set of laws that is NOT supposed to be human in any way.
Rape is a completely different class of crime than adultery.
In case of rape, a woman is simply ASKED if the person she accuses has raped her or not. She is supposed to be treated like a VICTIM. If the person denies, she simply has to take an oath that this man is the one who raped her and it's over; the man is given the penalty of 'spreading mischief in the land' which is quite a terrible one suitable for a crime as horrendous as rape.
You can find more on the subject here (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503548970&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar).
^I'm not catching you fully.
If it's harsh and it's just, is it bad? No.
So what's the big deal to say it's just though it may look harsh?
The religion is TOTALLY just in my own opinion...Is it harsh? Whenever that is needed to accommodate our own natures and for our own good; it may look like it is. The same way that I would think scolding a kid for telling a lie is 'too harsh' and that you should really talk him into telling the truth rather than scold him for telling a lie which is of course, as you implied, a different matter. Bottom line being is that God does not hate us.
No, "too harsh" is not the same as "harsh". Just like "too sweet" is not the same as "sweet"
Those are two different questions, that's what I'm saying.
To say something is "too harsh, but just" is nonsense.
But to say something is "harsh, but just" is perfectly reasonable.
Then the discussion can go on from there:
Is stoning so horrible a crime that it should never be countenanced?
Is stoning far too harsh a crime for adultery?
Is stoning so inhumane that it proves Islam is a bad religion?
Or is the fact that adultery is underestimated in its wickedness proof that Islam's harsh punishment for it is evidence that it comes from God?
All those issues can then be discussed reasonably.
But it's hard to discuss them reasonably if people say stoning isn't harsh.
If I showed you a film of someone being stoned to death, screaming and being slowly battered, blood bursting out everywhere, hair and flesh flying, moaning and crying for mercy, I'll bet you would avert your gaze in horror. You might even be unable to look; you might even vomit; you might break down and weep. Yes: even if you thought it was just under the circumstances.
I think that's a measure of its harshness.
Yup.
As in the case of this poor girl, the nurses pulled her out of the pit to check if she was dead, and finding her still alive, put her back in and allowed the stoning to continue.
Imagine stones the size of your fist raining down on your head...
You can argue that beheading is less painful, but not stoning.
If the person denies, she simply has to take an oath that this man is the one who raped her and it's over; the man is given the penalty of 'spreading mischief in the land' which is quite a terrible one suitable for a crime as horrendous as rape.
Hey I remember hearing about the punishment for mischief... is it cutting off your hands and feet? Crucifixion? Or both?
So all those crazy women who make false allegations of rape because they want attention- they could just take an oath and the judge says "that's all the evidence we need, fetch the cross".
Threadlike
05-11-08, 01:07 AM
Hey I remember hearing about the punishment for mischief... is it cutting off your hands and feet? Crucifixion? Or both?
So all those crazy women who make false allegations of rape because they want attention- they could just take an oath and the judge says "that's all the evidence we need, fetch the cross".
My apologies, the punishment I mentioned is not the one I read at all.
Mixed up. The punishment for the rapist is that of the adulterer and will vary if he is married or unmarried.
But, techincally, yes, women are not expected to bring out four witnesses if they claim they were raped if that's what you're asking. But that does not mean the OTHER conditions for the confirmation that this incident was rape and not adultery are not applicable. For example, a woman cannot go and say a kid who's not of age raped her. Or that an insane man raped her and have them stoned/lashed. Doesn't work that way and it isn't usually AS simple as it sounds.
That legal analysis is pure ******** and it is obviously NOT Islamic Law...Most (I'm tempted to say 'all' but I know there are always a bunch of crazies somewhere out there) Muslims DO disagree with it. The 'legal system' used in the stoning of this girl is nothing but a militant-applied set of laws that is NOT supposed to be human in any way.
Rape is a completely different class of crime than adultery.
In case of rape, a woman is simply ASKED if the person she accuses has raped her or not. She is supposed to be treated like a VICTIM. If the person denies, she simply has to take an oath that this man is the one who raped her and it's over; the man is given the penalty of 'spreading mischief in the land' which is quite a terrible one suitable for a crime as horrendous as rape.
You can find more on the subject here (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503548970&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar).
I'm very glad to hear your analysis!
This is a widespread abuse, then, under the Huddud laws of Pakistan, which have since been officially amended two years ago, though local authorities continue apparently to enforce them:
"Under the Hudood ordinance, rape is included in matters covered under Islamic law, like marriage and divorce. A woman who reports that she has been raped must produce four male witnesses to prove it. If she fails to do so, she can be prosecuted for adultery. Thousands of women have been punished under the law, often on the flimsiest evidence. That risk has kept many women from trying to bring their attackers to justice."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/16/world/asia/16pakistan.html
It was the so-called "Islamic Parties" of Pakistan that resisted the change in 2006...
Reluctant
05-11-08, 09:24 PM
I don't know the tone of your post or what you think, but I sense that you are critical of the so-called "hudud ordinances," yet, you shouldn't equate them with Islam. There is internal dissent within the scholastic Islamic community surrounding some of its provisions and anyone who hasn't investigated classical Islamic law or knows anything about comparative Islamic jurisprudence cannot grasp the intricacies and divergences implicit in the deduction of laws from sources.
What do you know about adultery in Islamic law or the classical debates surrounding the provisions and process of proving this crime, not only within Sunni Islam, but also Shi'ism, which differs greatly?
If you want to learn about Islamic law go to your local university or city library and check out a book on Islamic jurisprudence or comparative Islamic law, not glean your knowledge from some political bill. If you have any specific questions, ask. I will happily scan excerpts from classical works.
Why should a non muslim have to go all that trouble to find out what Islam is supposed to say ?
Suffice to say that Islamic parties in Pakistan are the primary motivators behind the hudood ordinance, so the onus is on YOU muslims to come out and loudly and publicly condemn such unfair ordinances.
Reluctant
05-11-08, 10:33 PM
Anyone who has even a basic understanding of Islamic jurisprudence knows that the punishment of stoning can only be carried out on someone who is married, sane, and committed the act voluntarily.
I doubt you speak Arabic to understand fiqh manuals, so I found a Shi'ite one online for you in French so you can run the machine translation. It's by Muhaqqaq al-Hilli and represents mainstream Shia fiqh:
http://books.google.com/books?id=LNcDAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22+de+Lois+concernant+les+musulmans+schyites%2 2&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=9_gT9lL5ak&sig=QuYbnwQnB_m5bPjQbCxkQKG6U80&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA484,M1
As you can see, there are over 100 specific stipulations regarding procedure, it's not a haphazard legal system. Some notable points:
7. The punishment is only incurred if the guilty had knowledge that they were committing a crime, committed it voluntarily, and are adult.
14. The punishment is not applicable in the case of violence.
15. The excuse of violence is agreed upon in the case of women, but it is contested in the case of men. But, it is preferable to acknowledge it.
19. The application of the punishment for adultery or fornication will not be carried out if the person in question declares the accomplice to be their spouse. They will not be put to the test or asked to prove it or make an oath.
21. A woman has not committed adultery unless she has fulfilled the criteria that must also be met by the man. Her sanity is also essential.
32. Adultery can be established through confession or witness testimony.
33. The establishment of the crime through confessions cannot be admitted unless the guilty is adult, sane, free, and he admits it four times, each time on a different occasion.
36. These conditions apply for both sexes.
48. The testimony of less than four legal persons will render each witness liable for the punishment of false accusation.
60. The accused will not be punished if, before the bringing of testimonial proof, he makes a sincere act of repentance.
These are also agreed upon in Sunni fiqh.
Reluctant
05-11-08, 11:11 PM
My point is that in authentic Islamic law a woman bringing an accusation of rape cannot in any situation be punished for adultery as the punishment for adultery can only be applied if it was committed voluntarily and is nullified if the woman testifies that force, coercion, or violence was present.
I think we all agree about that.
But the actual implementation of Islamic law in muslim countries leaves a lot to be desired.
Now if only we saw more protests about this misrepresentation if Islam and less about cartoons and teddy bears, then we'd be making real progress.
Threadlike
06-11-08, 12:41 AM
I think we all agree about that.
But the actual implementation of Islamic law in muslim countries leaves a lot to be desired.
Now if only we saw more protests about this misrepresentation if Islam and less about cartoons and teddy bears, then we'd be making real progress.
You know, I don't think any sane Muslim can say no to that.
Apart from that, I'm a little lost...I thought you had a huge problem with the way Islam views the crimes of rape and adultery, right?
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