View Full Version : Women Leading General Muslim Prayer for Both Sexes
So...what do you guys think of this? I'm curious...
Islamic history will be made in the heart of Oxford today when a woman Muslim scholar leads Friday prayers and delivers the khutba, or sermon, for the first time in Britain.
Professor Amina Wadud, visiting scholar at the Starr King School of the Ministry, Berkeley, California, received death threats after she led a service in New York three years ago. That event was held at an Anglican church after mosques refused to host it.
At 1pm today on Oxford's Banbury Road, Ms Wadud will deliver a sermon at the start of a conference on Islam and feminism at the University's Wolfson College. Organised by the Muslim Educational Centre Oxford (Meco), the event has attracted fierce criticism from traditionalists, who claim that the Koran insists on men leading prayers.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/first-woman-to-lead-muslim-prayers-angers-traditionalists-964308.html
DarK PrincesS
17-10-08, 09:53 AM
Ugh....She's Messed up Bigtime! Hope she doesn't get murdered by the scary "over religious" Men..
As far I know, it is not allowed in Islam for women to lead a prayer of men, where she is allowed to lead a prayer of women only !!!
She is doing a mistake !
FAITH86
17-10-08, 12:13 PM
^ Exactly...oh well, I hate it when people try to act genius.
Women just keep thinking they got more power over men, and in some ways ya, but COME ON, stop going over board
A true muslim woman will not do such thing.
Mr Tickle
17-10-08, 02:09 PM
I do not know what the Koran says about it.
Bearing this in mind, I would be interested in your response to the person on the link who justifies it in the following way:
"The golden rule of the Koran is that whatever is not expressly prohibited is permitted.
"Literalists interpret the Hadith [the sayings of Prophet Muhammad] as implying a woman should never lead a community. But even within the Hadith there is a woman called Umm Waraqa whom the Prophet allowed to lead prayers in a household and to teach her neighbour. Though it recognises biological differences between men and women, the Koran absolutely specifies gender egalitarianism.
"The people opposing this are the Wahhabi, Deobandi; misogynistic segments of Islam. They don't believe in the innate equality of men and women."
I do not know what the Koran says about it.
Bearing this in mind, I would be interested in your response to the person on the link who justifies it in the following way:
"The golden rule of the Koran is that whatever is not expressly prohibited is permitted.
"Literalists interpret the Hadith [the sayings of Prophet Muhammad] as implying a woman should never lead a community. But even within the Hadith there is a woman called Umm Waraqa whom the Prophet allowed to lead prayers in a household and to teach her neighbour. Though it recognises biological differences between men and women, the Koran absolutely specifies gender egalitarianism.
"The people opposing this are the Wahhabi, Deobandi; misogynistic segments of Islam. They don't believe in the innate equality of men and women."
Source??...........
UmKhalid
17-10-08, 02:35 PM
I don't hate Amina Wadud and I don't think she's crazy. I mean, if it wasn't for her I would've never even thought about this interesting subject.
She's a scholar who has studied Islam well enough to come up with this interpretation (Which is not hers, many scholars share the same views) ... From what I've read the issue of the Imamah is a controversial issue that scholars haven't 'agreed' on ... she's just the first person to actually take this 'other' interpretation into action by leading the mixed prayer.
I remember reading about the woman who had to dress as a man to be allowed to speak in a Friday Sermon in Bahrain, when they found out she was female she was caught, imprisoned, and they started calling her a lesbian. (I believe she had the right to give that sermon)
As Muslims we all know the Hadith that says that every Mujtahid will be rewarded, if they make an interpretation and it turns out wrong, they will be rewarded once for their effort, if it turns out correct, they will be rewarded twice: For their effort, and for reaching the truth.
What Amina Wadud did is an interpretation, Ijtihaad, that should be acknowledged, whether it's wrong or right, and whether we agree with her or not is a whole different subject.
Now if you ask me, I disagree with her approach. I respect it, but I disagree.
I will come back later perhaps to explain what I heard regarding this subject.
Black Lolly
17-10-08, 02:36 PM
I don't see what's the big deal in leading the prayers, why would women wanna do that anyways? And why the hell is it important =\.. Men lived in the past dunno how many centuries just fine by other men leading the prayers.. What's the sudden change for? Like it's going to make them a better person if they led both sexes.. pffft..
"The people opposing this are the Wahhabi, Deobandi; misogynistic segments of Islam. They don't believe in the innate equality of men and women[/I]."
It is a call for innovation rather than a call for equality.
amo_l_oman
17-10-08, 03:06 PM
"The golden rule of the Koran is that whatever is not expressly prohibited is permitted.
That's valid for the sayings of the Prophet
When he didn't answer on an issue then that's taken as a yes
I have zero opinion on this one way or the other.
But I think UmK raises an interesting point.
If this woman thinks that it's really just cultural prejudice and not religion at all that operates to prevent women from leading the prayer, isn't she doing a service by challenging it? Even if she's wrong?
I'm not pushing this, don't get me wrong. We don't have Catholic female priests and it's a matter of unchangeable doctrine, not a "rule". So I'm just curious about how you guys understand all this.
It is not a cultural thing.
If you are interested you can check below link for detailed Islamic view.
IslamOnline (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503549588&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar)
It is not a cultural thing.
If you are interested you can check below link for detailed Islamic view.
IslamOnline (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503549588&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar)
Wow, that's an interesting read!
But I read it carefully and I'm not impressed with the evidence cited. It seems more like reasoning from general principles than something firmly established in texts.
But I'm gonna drop it there. It's not my fight and I'm just as happy either way.
UmKhalid
17-10-08, 04:24 PM
We don't have Catholic female priests and it's a matter of unchangeable doctrine, not a "rule". So I'm just curious about how you guys understand all this.
But a role of an Imam is different than a role of a priest.
Even my 11 year old brother can be an Imam of a prayer, it doesn't mean he's going to rule everyone behind him, he's just leading a prayer, tomorrow his friend can lead the prayer, day after that a 70 year old man ... So if a woman lead a prayer it doesn't mean anything, she's just leading a prayer: Reading Qur'an, reciting suplications, making sure everything is in order ...
Even I could lead a prayer. It doesn't need any deep knowledge, just the basics of prayer.
But at the same time even for men there are restrictions, like if he is a man known to commit fornication, he will not be allowed to lead a prayer.
I don't know much about the restrictions of male brothers, I should search more, or if anyone else knows and shares it would be great. I just wanted to point out that there ARE restrictions not only for women but for men too.
UmKhalid
17-10-08, 04:28 PM
Okay, this is also interesting, Egypt's Grand Mufti Ali Jum'a admits that there are different views regarding this issue and that Imam Al Tabari and Ibn Arabi see that women are allowed to lead mixed prayers, but the difference is the woman's POSITION. As in she should be at the side not infront of the men ... so that it would be more honourable for the woman because if she's infront of them some who are weak hearted might ... um ... check her out :p
Either pray the right way or dont pray at all.
Making up new rules isn't the answer.
amo_l_oman
17-10-08, 05:05 PM
If this woman thinks that it's really just cultural prejudice and not religion at all that operates to prevent women from leading the prayer, isn't she doing a service by challenging it? Even if she's wrong?
She's not doing anything so great
Probably she is interpreting the story of Umm Waraqa as a general rule and not as an exception
In other words, she chose a position after studying, which is what all Muslims must do
Mr Tickle
17-10-08, 05:27 PM
Sole,
The source is the article itself
She's not doing anything so great
Probably she is interpreting the story of Umm Waraqa as a general rule and not as an exception
In other words, she chose a position after studying, which is what all Muslims must do
I didn't say "so great" just "a service".
Lots of times I have heard Muslims complain here, "That's not religion, that's just culture! Why do people treat it like religion and confuse the two together?!?"
If this is just culture and supposition, then it might be a service. How "great" is not anything I would know anything about.
I respect this woman and her views, and I would condemn the violent knee-jerk reaction from traditionalists. I believe that her motivations are sincere and positive, and if some are convinced then I don't see any harm in it really.
But personally, I don't think I would pray behind a woman. I would agree that the evidence that this is forbidden is inconclusive. But by the same measure, there is no real precedent or recommendation for it either. The question I'm asking myself is whether, if this were meant to be, it wouldn't have been demonstrated or encouraged at some time in the Prophet's :PBUH: lifetime. After all, there were many prominent and learned females among the Faithful in the early years, and neither the Prophet :PBUH: nor his immediate followers appear to have prayed behind women at any time.
So really, in the absence of a definitive ruling either way, I think the issue is: Even if it were permitted, why would it ever be necessary? Of course a woman can lead other women in prayer, but would would she ever have to lead the men? I'm not convinced that would be wrong, but it would clearly make some people uncomfortable (possibly me included), so why not just leave it alone? The system for prayer works, with men leading men or mixed prayers, and women leading women only. So if it ain't broke...don't fix it.
But a role of an Imam is different than a role of a priest.
Even my 11 year old brother can be an Imam of a prayer, it doesn't mean he's going to rule everyone behind him, he's just leading a prayer, tomorrow his friend can lead the prayer, day after that a 70 year old man ... So if a woman lead a prayer it doesn't mean anything, she's just leading a prayer: Reading Qur'an, reciting suplications, making sure everything is in order ...
Even I could lead a prayer. It doesn't need any deep knowledge, just the basics of prayer.
But at the same time even for men there are restrictions, like if he is a man known to commit fornication, he will not be allowed to lead a prayer.
I don't know much about the restrictions of male brothers, I should search more, or if anyone else knows and shares it would be great. I just wanted to point out that there ARE restrictions not only for women but for men too.
Yes, the roles are very different! Good for you that you have grasped that... :)
I was really just thinking that someone might think I was "complaining about women's rights" and want to point out that Catholics were no better in this matter, that's all.
Mr Tickle
17-10-08, 06:12 PM
Mimosa my good friend,
Bit by bit:
1) "the evidence that this is forbidden is inconclusive"
I guess the only thing stopping it is (therefore) prejudice..........
2) So really, in the absence of a definitive ruling either way, I think the issue is: Even if it were permitted, why would it ever be necessary?
If there is no definitive ruling, all interpretations are valid
3) Of course a woman can lead other women in prayer, but would would she ever have to lead the men?
Why not?
Women have led countries
4) I'm not convinced that would be wrong, but it would clearly make some people uncomfortable (possibly me included).......
That's your problem
5) The system for prayer works, with men leading men or mixed prayers, and women leading women only. So if it ain't broke...don't fix it.
As you say, it is a 'system'.....and not based on any Koranic rules (a bit like Honour killings)
I guess that just leaves misogny and prejudice
amo_l_oman
17-10-08, 06:15 PM
Lots of times I have heard Muslims complain here, "That's not religion, that's just culture! Why do people treat it like religion and confuse the two together?!?"
Usually culture brings bad things which can be justified by a distorted version of the religion
I don't see any cultural interference here, though I imagine that the extremists are enraged cause according to them in Islam the woman is inferior thus allowing her to lead the prayers, would be degradating
The basis is an hadith that some argue weak, on which some others differ on the translation of the word "dar"
That's all
Mimo
calm down
I don't think it will ever pass as rule
You can still pray behind a bearded man
No woman no cry
UmKhalid
18-10-08, 05:28 PM
So if it ain't broke...don't fix it.
:yes:
Thinking about it, it's not that big of an issue that Muslim women need to be fighting for, there are other more important things.
But seeing that some women have been working towards proving some kind of point is going to be good for religion I believe, helps people think outside the box.
Searching for equality with men in everything doesn't make women anything but stupid.
:
But seeing that some women have been working towards proving some kind of point is going to be good for religion I believe, helps people think outside the box.
Or destroying it with weird ideas. You know some people believe them and take them as role models.
Lightning2
18-10-08, 05:59 PM
^^ very true:)
UmKhalid
18-10-08, 06:26 PM
^ Don't you understand that this is NOT a weird idea, but an idea that has been adopted by scholars like Al Tabari and Ibn Arabi?
At the end I would say, let women decide for themselves on something that is their concern.
They can't just innovate something when it comes to one of the critical pillers of Islam which is prayer.
I think those women are affacted by the western ideas of equality and trying to say to them "we muslim women are equal to men we can even lead men in prayer as they do"!
^ Don't you understand that this is NOT a weird idea, but an idea that has been adopted by scholars like Al Tabari and Ibn Arabi?
At the end I would say, let women decide for themselves on something that is their concern.
Am afraid it's not their concern. When some people try to impose some new teachings which did not exist before in the name of equality between men and women it's Islam concern. If she does it in her house she can do it with her family and leave God judgment to her. But doing it publically and trying to convince others with such ideas, I don't think this would be women concern.
Mr Tickle
20-10-08, 12:08 PM
Could someone kindly show me where it explicitly states in the Koran that women should not lead mixed prayers?
That will help clear it up
Thanks
This is not acceptable. Just as the Pope can't be a Mome (A word I invented for a female pope :p), the imams at mosques must be men :)
Could someone kindly show me where it explicitly states in the Koran that women should not lead mixed prayers?
That will help clear it up
Thanks
Not everything is mentioned in the Koran. We have our prophet's :PBUH: sunna and we have our minds to know what's wrong and what's right.
First in the time of our prophet :PBUH:, women used to pray with men but they took the last lines. They did not mingle with the men. Our prophet PBUH told them to stay in the backlines and as soon the Imam says elsalam they rush to go out.
Now what does this tell you ?
Another example.
When prophet Moses :PBUH: helped prophet shu'aib daughters in getting some water. They told their father about him then their father told them to bring him in the house. If you've read the story of this, they walked behind him and he walked in front of them, though they are the ones who are taking him to a place he doesn't know.
Logically: They should take the lead, he follows till they reach the place.
Instead: He walked in fron of them and they followed him giving him the directions from behind.
What does this tell you.
Now let's assume women can lead the lines in prayer with men. Imagine the situation.
As you know, prayers requires sujood and rukoo3 where the body sits into different positions.
Here are some illustrations:
http://www.iisesa1.com/salat/15-15.JPG
http://www.iisesa1.com/salat/16-16.jpg
http://www.iisesa1.com/salat/Resize6.jpg
Now imagine, a women in this position in front of men. There of course some weak heats men like me who may be distracted by such positions.
Imagine also some men came late for the prayer and as soon they entered the mosque they saw women in this position. Islam warned us about the look and we find such positions in a mosque ?
Do you think it's a propriate to commit sins in the time of worshipping Allah ? In his house ? Now this is a horrible thing.
One last thing, Some prayers require loud reading for the holy quran. You know women's voice is 3awrah. Imagine a girl leading the prayer and reading the quran loudly ( I can imagine someone saying yala 7babi tha el9oot ) Is that Spirit ? LOL .
It's horrible just to think about it and it can happen.
We don't wan't mosques to turn into co-praying thingy full of mixed men and women this sees this and that talks to that. And if we open this door then we'll accept all what comes from it. What's worse than sinning in the place of worshipping.
Great answer El Rey, and I think Mr pino didn't read the link in the first page for evidences.
Could someone kindly show me where it explicitly states in the Koran that women should not lead mixed prayers?
That will help clear it up
Thanks
If you believe in the Quran then you must believe in Prophet Mohammed pbuh because the Quran was revealed to him.
Tickle, maybe you should examine your own prejudice when you read my posts: I said I respect this woman's opinion and don't see any harm in it. You said that all interpretations are valid. Mine is just that this innovation is unnecessary.
Could someone kindly show me where it explicitly states in the Koran that women should not lead mixed prayers?
That will help clear it up
Thanks
It's the equivalent passage to the one in the Bible saying there shouldn't be women priests. Probably. :p
So...what do you guys think of this? I'm curious...
Professor Amina Wadud, visiting scholar at the Starr King School of the Ministry, Berkeley, California,
She is from Berkeley, no surprises there...
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