New Fatwa: Dogs Allowed in Mosques!!

[clouds]

An 18-year-old blind Muslim student in Leicester is the first to be allowed to take his guide dog into a UK mosque.

In Islam dogs are regarded as unclean and are not allowed in mosques.

However, the Muslim Law (Shari'ah) Council UK has now issued a fatwa which allows guide dogs inside mosques but not into prayer rooms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/7633623.stm


what do you think about it?

I would like to remind you muslim members of this authentic hadeeth:

"Angels will not enter a house which there is a DOG or a picture in it"

so what about mosques the houses of Allah swt?

I think this fatwa is really rediculous and against Islam teachings.

me personally I believe that dogs are not "nijes" or un clean as no Quran or authentic sunna prove that they are.

but that hadeeth I quoted above support my point of view why dogs must not enter mosques.

as for the blind people who use guide dogs and want to pray in the mosques I suggest they leave their dogs away from mosque's main gate and entrance and ask for help to bring them inside.

[sameerb1]

exectly ... i was thinkin about the same hadeeth..."Angels will not enter a house which there is a DOG or a picture in it"...so how could they bring up this fatwa so easily?

as you said .. they could leave their dogs out and anyone would bring them in and take them out if they were a regular visitor of masjid... as we do to our friends around anyways...

[Pucca]

What do you mean pictures??
Like what type of Pictures? Idols pics or any pic at all??

[Lym]

So long as the dog does not enter the prayer room, then it should be fine. Plus, this is a guide dog we are talking about, the dog is a necessity, s/he is not there for entertainment purposes. It would be more "harmful" if a pious blind Muslim man can't fulfill his obligation of attending his daily prayers in the mosque, than allowing a dog into the mosque's courtyard.

[UmKhalid]

It could enter the mosque's ground, I don't see what the problem with that is, but the prayer room of course it wouldn't because bel 3agel (logically), if he gets to the mosque I'm sure brothers would help him enter.

So I agree with Lym.

What I'm amazed about is that he's actually going to the mosque to pray despite the difficulties! :) Masha'Allah.

May God bless him and his dog.

[amo_l_oman]

What do you mean pictures??
Like what type of Pictures? Idols pics or any pic at all??

Anything containing a living creature, like a human being or an animal, and same goes to statues
This is based on an episode in which the Prophet saws became angry with Aisha because a drawing of a bird on a curtain made him lose concentration in prayer
He said that in the day of judgement people will be asked to get the soul of the creatures out of those pictures [drawings] but nothing will happen


but that hadeeth I quoted above support my point of view why dogs must not enter mosques

There are also hadeeth that allow dogs outside, for hunting and protection, so the fatwa probably followed this reasoning

[Superbia]

The moment the word dog crosses my mind, I feel ew. Can't tolerate them, scared of them, and I'd definitely wouldn't want them in a mosque.

[minerva]

a guide dog is a special dog. not like any other pet. he has a special leash and he walks slowly and is very docile.

[The brain.]

I like this kind of Fatwa'ss as it looks into the needs of certain ppl and it encourage many not only the blinds but also replies back to whom are thinking that Islam in a view that it is not a flexible and suitable for all life stages.

And I think these kind of dogs are well trained that they not going to enter the prayer rooms; dogs understand too

[BrAiKi]

I agree with Umkhalid.
Islam is the religion is simplicity and making things easier for people.
:yes:

[clouds]

if anyone seen the video in the link in my first post, the dog actually enters the mosque main hall and was locked inside a small steel cage, which I think it's rude for the dog and against animal basic rights especially if the dog to be locked in for long time if the owner is praying "Taraweeh" in Ramadan which could last for at least an hour!!!

if this fatwa to be acceptable I would suggest to build a shade OUTSIDE the mosque fence especially for guard dogs for the blind where a keeper should be appointed to look after those dogs and give them water and food and clean their dirt. and at the same time he can lead the blind men to the mosque prayer room.

[Geya]

Whaaaaaaat i have a lot of pictures around the house baby pictures and what not :s

[Geya]

but the dude who brings a dog in, is doing that because he needs too not because he wants too

[Markov]

The dog does not actually enter the pray area of the mosque, the title is made in such a way to instill fury in some readers, its a reporting style to get readers' attention.

For example, if the title read:

"Muslim Leaders were kind enough to admit a guide dog to Mosque Grounds", it wont make even the back page of BBC.

[minerva]

if anyone seen the video in the link in my first post, the dog actually enters the mosque main hall and was locked inside a small steel cage, which I think it's rude for the dog and against animal basic rights especially if the dog to be locked in for long time if the owner is praying "Taraweeh" in Ramadan which could last for at least an hour!!!

if this fatwa to be acceptable I would suggest to build a shade OUTSIDE the mosque fence especially for guard dogs for the blind where a keeper should be appointed to look after those dogs and give them water and food and clean their dirt. and at the same time he can lead the blind men to the mosque prayer room.
great humane suggestion. would encourage more blind people to attend the mosque too. guide dogs are fantastic dogs, so well behaved. their training costs thousands of pounds and they are a lifesaver to people who need them. i'm sure a guide dog in a mosque wouldn't be a nuisance, and for all the kindness they give, your suggestion would be most fitting. treat them back kindly, provide a nice area for them, not stick them in a cage.

[MorphaKnight]

We should commend that a person with such a harsh disability is able to survive on his own without the need of anyone's help except the dog. It's very admirable.. Religion is meant to be easy not difficult..

[i3u00n_ildenya]

I don't see the problem when the dog isnt entering the prayer room, but I do believe in that hadeeth. But we all know Allah forgives, and the poor guy is trying to fulfill his duty as a muslim, and praying in the mosque. Its not really his fault that God wrote for him to be blind in his life. You really have to think about it, and put yourself in that poor guy's shoes.

[Jeff]

What would happen if a blind man were in a room with a dog, locked in. Would his prayers not count?

I mean, I thought there was a doctrine of necessity. Isn't there?

[STING]

Muslims are people who should Propagate Virtue and Prevent Vice (امر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر), but today as rightly mentioned in a tv show I watched earlier, we just talk about preventing vice, but does nothing about the first part of propagating virtue.

I don't agree with the fatwa of allowing dogs in the mosque, but maybe to some area outside, that also until a solution is found for blind.

[Reluctant]

Just FYI (for your information) Amr bil Maroof wal Nahi Anil Munkar is usually translated as, "Enjoining the good and forbidding the evil." Whether this is the best translation is debatable, but that's how I've seen it translated. I don't believe that dogs are impure (najis) and I love them very much. I think that a lot of the trouble that Muslims have with dogs is cultural and somewhat the result of misinterpretation of hadiths. For instance, there are hadiths that say one can only keep a dog for security or hunting and that you shouldn't keep a dog as a pet. In conjunction with this is a hadith that if a dog licks a plate you should wash it a certain number of times. Based on this hadith Islamic scholars then declared that dogs are ritually impure, some like Shi'ites (although they have more explicit hadiths on the topic) even going as far to say that if you have a strand of dog's hair on your clothes or in the vincity of your prayer area that your prayer is void. How they came to this conclusion based on a hadith about washing off a plate if a dog licked it is beyond me, and has fueled unjustified anti-dog cultural sentiment in the Muslim world. Just thought I'd post these for reference, I'm pretty sure that Muslims during the Prophet's time had a lot more to worry about than the legalistic minutae that later legal authorities unreasonably interpolated from isolated hadiths. Muslims were worried about their families, famine, war and peace, living day to day and restraining their desires and trying to obey Allah and His Messenger, not if the water they were about to drink from a watering hole might have come in contact with a dog:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A man saw a dog eating mud from (the severity of) thirst. So, that man took a shoe (and filled it) with water and kept on pouring the water for the dog till it quenched its thirst. So Allah approved of his deed and made him to enter Paradise." And narrated Hamza bin 'Abdullah: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go), nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog.)" Sahih Bukhari Book #4, Hadith #174

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was walking he felt thirsty and went down a well and drank water from it. On coming out of it, he saw a dog panting and eating mud because of excessive thirst. The man said, 'This (dog) is suffering from the same problem as that of mine. So he (went down the well), filled his shoe with water, caught hold of it with his teeth and climbed up and watered the dog. Allah thanked him for his (good) deed and forgave him." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Is there a reward for us in serving (the) animals?" He replied, "Yes, there is a reward for serving any living being." Sahih Bukhari Book #40, Hadith #551

[amo_l_oman]

So your conclusion is ?

[Reluctant]

Honestly I don't have one, I'm sort of apathetic about it. Obviously it's not normal to have an animal in a mosque. Are you walking to the mosque if you're blind and live in a modern city? Maybe it's possible, but in America and probably Britain, most likely not. So, if you do walk to the mosque as a blind person through the traffic and whatnot, why not leave it outside and have someone help you the rest of the way? But I just don't care enough right now to think about it or have the conviction to assert any opinion and feel that it's what I really believe.

[amo_l_oman]

I see
The hadith on the urine anyway, is interpreted by some scholars to focus on the fact that if some urine is spread [on the ground or on a dress] there's no need to sprinkle water to purify it, not really a dog issue
Thanks for sharing

[Arabian Prince]

Firstly I think that this fatwa is very considerate of the needs of all Muslims regardless of their disability or hindrance to perform their religious duties. However, I doubt that this would pose as an issue in most Arab countries because a blind person would most certainly be accompanied to the mosque by a friend or another member of his family whenever need be. :)


me personally I believe that dogs are not "nijes" or un clean as no Quran or authentic sunna prove that they are.

but that hadeeth I quoted above support my point of view why dogs must not enter mosques.
According to the Hadith you quoted, what other reason could there be for Angels not entering a house in which a dog is present?
I'm assuming because of its najasa (impurity).



It could enter the mosque's ground, I don't see what the problem with that is, but the prayer room of course it wouldn't because bel 3agel (logically), if he gets to the mosque I'm sure brothers would help him enter.
I agree, and that's exactly what's stated in the fatwa according to the article.



I don't believe that dogs are impure (najis) and I love them very much.
...
For instance, there are hadiths that say one can only keep a dog for security or hunting and that you shouldn't keep a dog as a pet.
...
In conjunction with this is a hadith that if a dog licks a plate you should wash it a certain number of times.
Could you please provide a hadith which states allowing dogs for protection and hunting and not as pets.

Also regarding the Hadith about washing a plate a certain number of times, I always believed that after coming in contact with a dog one had to wash as well before performing any religious duties, so wouldn't that imply something about a dogs najasa (impurity)?

[amo_l_oman]

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "If someone keeps a dog neither for guarding livestock, nor for hunting, his good deeds will decrease (in reward) by two Qirats a day.'


I doubt that this would pose as an issue in most Arab countries because a blind person would most certainly be accompanied to the mosque by a friend or another member of his family whenever need be.

That should be the condition for such fatwa
If no one is available, then the dog is allowed
Am sure also in UK one of the family would bring him to Mosque

[Angel_Eyes]

I am completely disgusted and enraged.

[wudjab]

Muslims are people who should Propagate Virtue and Prevent Vice (امر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر), but today as rightly mentioned in a tv show I watched earlier, it just talks about preventing vice, but does nothing about the first part of propagating vice.

I don't agree with the fatwa of allowing dogs in the mosque, but maybe to some area outside, that also until a solution is found for blind.

Interesting.

At least you do your part to propagate vice when you participate on the sabla !


:hyper:

[mimosa]

I don't see the logic of this. The whole point of going to the mosque to pray is that it is with other people: So why not let any one of those other people lead him to the right place with the dog tied outside? It's inconsiderate to other people praying, who might find it unpleasant and at best distracting to have a dog's tongue lolling next to them while they are making sujood!

I do admire the principle of flexibility and trying to make things easy and simple for this brother. But in this case, I think the dude has got it wrong. And let's not forget, and fatwa is only one guy's opinion.

[Arabian Prince]

I am completely disgusted and enraged.

It's inconsiderate to other people praying, who might find it unpleasant and at best distracting to have a dog's tongue lolling next to them while they are making sujood!
People pray inside the masjid's (mosque's) prayer room. Usually masajid (mosques) are bigger than just the prayer room and almost always have some sort of yard or open space outside the prayer room.

Quoting the article, "the Muslim Law (Shari'ah) Council UK has now issued a fatwa which allows guide dogs inside mosques but not into prayer rooms."

[STING]

Interesting.

At least you do your part to propagate vice when you participate on the sabla !


:hyper:

If only that was true, than my life would have been meaningless like yours :hyper:

Anyhow, in this case, propagating (spreading or supporting) virtue would be to find solution for the blind and make their lives easier, at least when it comes to visiting the mosque.

[Threadlike]

It could enter the mosque's ground, I don't see what the problem with that is, but the prayer room of course it wouldn't because bel 3agel (logically), if he gets to the mosque I'm sure brothers would help him enter.

So I agree with Lym.

What I'm amazed about is that he's actually going to the mosque to pray despite the difficulties! :) Masha'Allah.

May God bless him and his dog.
My thought exactly...Well-said.

[wudjab]

If only that was true, than my life would have been meaningless like yours :hyper:

Anyhow, in this case, propagating (spreading or supporting) virtue would be to find solution for the blind and make their lives easier, at least when it comes to visiting the mosque.

So how's your campaign to propagate vice doing today ?

[El Rey]

Now let's wait for another fatwa allows handicapped people enter the mosque with their donkeys :rolleyes:

The mosque is God's house not a zoo. I think it's irrespectful for such a holy place to take a dog inside it. Even in the hall since I believe it's used for praying when the mosque is crwoded specially in the friday prayer.

Why do some Islamic scholars try to take the tougher solution to make things easier ? I think there are many other options for the blind people to go to mosque to pray rather than taking their animals inside the mosque.

They can keep their dogs outside the mosque and then someone will lead them inside. They can come with some one from the begining. I really envy the blind guy's strong faith to go to the mosque though he's blind. But I wish he finds another way to go there.


great humane suggestion. would encourage more blind people to attend the mosque too. guide dogs are fantastic dogs, so well behaved. their training costs thousands of pounds and they are a lifesaver to people who need them. i'm sure a guide dog in a mosque wouldn't be a nuisance, and for all the kindness they give, your suggestion would be most fitting. treat them back kindly, provide a nice area for them, not stick them in a cage.

Are blind people allowed to enter the church with their dogs ? I haven't seen or heard of this.

[Pucca]

Now let's wait for another fatwa allows handicapped people enter the mosque with their donkeys :rolleyes:

The mosque is God's house not a zoo. I think it's irrespectful for such a holy place to take a dog inside it. Even in the hall since I believe it's used for praying when the mosque is crwoded specially in the friday prayer.

Very well said :)

Why do some Islamic scholars try to take the tougher solution to make things easier ? I think there are many other options for the blind people to go to mosque to pray rather than taking their animals inside the mosque.

They can keep their dogs outside the mosque and then someone will lead them inside. They can come with some one from the begining. I really envy the blind guy's strong faith to go to the mosque though he's blind. But I wish he finds another way to go there.



Are blind people allowed to enter the church with their dogs ? I haven't seen or heard of this.
:D
Good One

[Angel_Eyes]

It doesn't matter if they don't allow the dog in the actual prayer room.
You know that dogs bark and you don't want barking when you're praying:os

[Jeff]

I think the best thing to do in such a case is not to say, "Blind people can do this, blind people can do that", but rather to ask them: "Can't you do this or that? What is the advantage of bringing a dog into the mosque?"

I don't know what all the difficulties are. Let's ask the people who have to live with the problem, rather than jumping to conclusions.

As far as dogs barking, well, I guess you guys don't spend much time around seeing eye dogs.

They don't bark. They are highly, highly trained animals. And they are incredibly expensive.

We have some friends whose kids do the first stages of training these dogs. Even before they get chosen for the final cut, they are raised as puppies for years and put through a rigorous pre-training program.

That means: first cut is puppies bred for the purpose who seem to be trainable.

Second cut: puppies who have passed initial training for several years and are the cream of the crop. Most fail out.

Third cut: dogs who pass the final training program nearly perfectly. Most fail out here too.

Seeing eye dogs don't bark! They don't chase cats. They don't growl and bite people. They don't do any of that ordinary doggy stuff.

They are very impressive animals.

[minerva]

^^thank you Jeff.

[wudjab]

I find the attitude of most of the posters to people who have what is possible the worst handicap one can have, to be absolutely appalling.

[STING]

What you think their attitude towards the retards :D?

[UmKhalid]

Speaking of dogs, seems like someone is chasing someone here ...


Better stop barking. Eid Mubarak.

[Mr Tickle]

I am completely disgusted and enraged

Wow, I can't imagine how you would react if it was anything more serious

[FrankCastle]

Hey...what kind of picture? a picture of a dog? or just a picture...

[clouds]

quoted by Arabian prince:


According to the Hadith you quoted, what other reason could there be for Angels not entering a house in which a dog is present?
I'm assuming because of its najasa (impurity).

I fully agree with Baahith that dogs are not impure or "najis" so this is not the reason why the Prophet pbuh told us not to keep a dog inside the house, the main reason I think is because that dogs especially black coloured ones can be actually devils, and that's why in some authentic hadeeths the Prophet pbuh asked us to kill BLACK dogs only.

please no one thinks that Islam is rude about animals but black dogs are the only exemption because they possess evil and devil, I even hate black dogs and feel my body shivers long time before I knew about those hadeeths.

[Mr Tickle]

Clouds

but black dogs are the only exemption because they possess evil and devil, I even hate black dogs and feel my body shivers long time before I knew about those hadeeths.

Any black dogs in particular?

Is it all black dogs?

[minerva]

now we know what satan looks like.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2128/2062010077_0626914b00.jpg?v=0

[Mr Tickle]

Poor old Clouds...........utterly ridiculous

Black labradors are cleary the devil

[Lym]

Sometimes people should think before saying something, because once it is said, you can't do anything but stand there looking like a fool :rolleyes:

[MsKnuckles]

"Angels will not enter a house which there is a DOG or a picture in it"
a.picture.of.what?...a.dog?

[clouds]

^^a picture of any creature which possess a soul.

like humans and animals.

this is not my sayings but there are many authentic hadeeths which supports that:)

[clouds]

Clouds

but black dogs are the only exemption because they possess evil and devil, I even hate black dogs and feel my body shivers long time before I knew about those hadeeths.

Any black dogs in particular?

Is it all black dogs?

Mr tickle the hadeeths applies only on black dogs ie ALL black dogs, minerva gave a good example in the picture.

but for a black dog with any other colour on his body will be exempted.

[MsKnuckles]

so.you're.forbidden.from.hanging.pictures.of.famil y.on.your.walls?

how.much.more.laughter.do.those.sayings.will.to.in itiate?
seriously.guys...islam.is.NOT.like.that...those.ar e.just.lunatics.bringing.things.from.ridiculous.so urces...

[Threadlike]

Mr tickle the hadeeths applies only on black dogs ie ALL black dogs, minerva gave a good example in the picture.

but for a black dog with any other colour on his body will be exempted.
The hadith you are talking about is known to have been situational; it cannot be taken in the context of today because it was regarding a particular incident.

The story of the hadith is like so: The prophet PBUH was sorrowful that Gabriel had not met him on a day. Later on he found a puppy under his bed, which he shooed away and then threw water on where it had sat. Gabriel then came to the prophet PBUH and informed him that angels do not enter a house in which there are dogs. After which, the prophet PBUH ordered all dogs (except the ones that stood guard over property) killed...Then he limited it to black dogs. And then it was completely abrogated and the killing was no more approved by the prophet PBUH as found in hadith 174, Book 4 of Volume 1:

The Prophet said, "A man saw a dog eating mud from (the severity of) thirst. So, that man took a shoe (and filled it) with water and kept on pouring the water for the dog till it quenched its thirst. So Allah approved of his deed and made him to enter Paradise." And narrated Hamza bin 'Abdullah: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go), nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog.)"
I think a dog urinating in the mosque is more than enough reason to kill it...And if you don't kill it THEN, it's only logical to conclude that you must not kill it in any other case.

IslamOnline offers this on hanging pictures of family on walls:

“It is not considered haram (forbidden) to hang family pictures on the wall; however, I should urge you against hanging them on the wall directly facing you in Prayer. For by hanging them in the direction of Prayer, your thoughts will likely be distracted; furthermore, it may inadvertently give the impression that we worship pictures. It is important for us Muslims to make ourselves distinct in our religious practices from those who associate partners with Allah in their worship. So never hang such pictures in the direction of your Prayer.
It adds:

It is worth remembering that this was the main rationale for prohibiting carving images and statues in the first place.
Since, however, such motives are entirely lacking in hanging family pictures, there is no reason to consider it as haram.”

Source (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547104)
It's only logic. If the motif is absent, such an action cannot be haram..."Al a3mal bil niyat" ("Actions are by intentions"), remember?

[Reluctant]

Sorry, but this response you provided about photos has no basis in hadiths. There is no distinction made between images such as where they are placed or anything of that nature outside of if they depict animate or inanimate objects. Just say that you disagree with this issue and can't see how it's applicable to the modern day, but don't distort what Islam teaches. It has nothing to do with actions being by intention. Of course there is the ijtihad of determining whether a photograph is an "image."

On your other topic, in Sunan Abu Dawud it said that the killing of dogs was ordered because they became a nuisance and hardship on the people of Madinah, the city was literally teeming with stray dogs and the prospect of disease.

[Threadlike]

Oh I can easily agree...A slight discrepancy is that agreeing would of course mean that any scholar who allows his picture be taken today and published in newspapers or for license, passport or any other purposes is a hypocrite who doesn't know his religion.

[wudjab]

baa7ith - do you believe that pictures of animate objects are forbidden ?

[Reluctant]

I don't know.

Definitely not pictures of danishes. :)

[Pucca]

I don't know.

Definitely not pictures of danishes. :)

or cupcakes

lol :hyper:

[STING]

^But surely pictures of aliens :p

[clouds]

black dogs are Devil:

Muslim: Book 004, Number 1032:

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ***, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

إذا قام أحدكم يصلي ، فإنه يستره إذا كان بين يديه مثل آخرة الرحل . فإذا لم يكن بين يديه مثل آخرة الرحل ، فإنه يقطع صلاته الحمار والمرأة والكلب الأسود . قلت : يا أبا ذر ! ما بال الكلب الأسود من الكلب الأحمر من الكلب الأصفر ؟ قال : يا ابن أخي ! سألت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كما سألتني فقال : الكلب الأسود شيطان
الراوي: أبو ذر الغفاري - خلاصة الدرجة: صحيح - المحدث: مسلم - المصدر: المسند الصحيح


order to muslims to kill all pure black dogs:

Book 16, Number 2839:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one.


لولا أن الكلاب أمة من الأمم لأمرت بقتلها فاقتلوا منها الأسود البهيم

[NaBHaN]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a guide dog guiding a blind man to the mosque, the fatwa clearly states that cannot enter the praying rooms so that should be enough to not cause the fuss that some obviously paranoid extremists are causing. Just the fact that he wants to pray in the mosque despite his disabilities should be admired not frowned upon.

[wudjab]

I don't know.

Definitely not pictures of danishes. :)

It was a simple enough question.... which you found difficult to answer.

Your dodge is more revealing than you think.

[Mashog]

black dogs are Devil:

Muslim: Book 004, Number 1032:

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ***, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

إذا قام أحدكم يصلي ، فإنه يستره إذا كان بين يديه مثل آخرة الرحل . فإذا لم يكن بين يديه مثل آخرة الرحل ، فإنه يقطع صلاته الحمار والمرأة والكلب الأسود . قلت : يا أبا ذر ! ما بال الكلب الأسود من الكلب الأحمر من الكلب الأصفر ؟ قال : يا ابن أخي ! سألت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كما سألتني فقال : الكلب الأسود شيطان
الراوي: أبو ذر الغفاري - خلاصة الدرجة: صحيح - المحدث: مسلم - المصدر: المسند الصحيح


order to muslims to kill all pure black dogs:

Book 16, Number 2839:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one.


لولا أن الكلاب أمة من الأمم لأمرت بقتلها فاقتلوا منها الأسود البهيم


is this 7adith true or some kind of weak 7adith ?

[clouds]

^^these two Hadeeths are classified as Authentic hadeeths the first one narrated by Muslim the second one narrated by Abu Dawood.

it's funny though I never seen an all pure black dog here in Oman, thanks God no devils around here:), the Omani dogs are called "Jabal" or mountain dogs and they are normally brown colours, I used to own few of them and use them as guard dogs outside my house. They are very clever dogs and easy to train, and they bark loud.

[UmKhalid]

I don't know why you are taking the 'devil' thing so literally. I think this is only because the black dogs in that area at that time (1500 years ago) were more vicious than the others.

1500 years ago, back then, they didn't 'train' their dogs and domestic-ize (maybe not a word but you get what I mean), as for now, my uncle for example owns a pure black labrador dog which I adore, she's so sweet and gave birth to some cute pure black puppies.

Oh and she barks louder than the Omani Jabal Dogs. She is very clever, and from what I see she was also easy to train.

[clouds]

^^UmKhalid, the hadeeths of the Prophet peace be upon him does NOT alter or change by time, it's literally Allah's words through revelation (وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحى) (He the Prophet pbuh does not speak for himself but it's revealed to him by Allah).

ps.could you give me your uncle address? :)

[Reluctant]

It was a simple enough question.... which you found difficult to answer.

Your dodge is more revealing than you think.

I didn't dodge anything. I said that I don't know. It's an issue I've researched and not come to a conclusion on. I don't know if photographs or paintings of animate objects are haram or halal or how to interpret these hadiths, or even if I believe hadiths from sahih Bukhari to be authentic, or the degree to which the Qur'an and sunnah compliment each other and the limits therein. Even then, if paintings and stitchings of animate objects are haram, the ijtihad involved in correlating this to modern day photographs. That's what I said, no difficulty in it at all. Admitting ignorance is not dodging something.

[clouds]

I didn't dodge anything. I said that I don't know. It's an issue I've researched and not come to a conclusion on. I don't know if photographs or paintings of animate objects are haram or halal or how to interpret these hadiths, or even if I believe hadiths from sahih Bukhari to be authentic, or the degree to which the Qur'an and sunnah compliment each other and the limits therein. That's what I said, no difficulty in it at all. Admitting ignorance is not dodging something.

Baahith do you have doubts about the Authenticity of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim??

that's explain why you are mixed up on the issue of pictures and statues of live creatures and can't reach a conclusion!!!

by the way Baahith the Prophet peace be upon him DID NOT say that pictures and statues of living creatures are HARAM in Sahih Bukhari, but what he actually said was that the angels will not enter a house with those things in it.

so I don't understand how people automatically use the word HARAM for such things.

the HARAM is what Allah swt and the Prophet peace be upon him literally stated it's haram in the Quran and the Authentic Sunnah, for example the Prophet pbuh clearly mentioned in an authentic hadeeth that Gold and Silk are HARAM for Muslim males to wear. so we can say they are actually HARAM, and so on and likewise what Allah swt mentioned in the Quran drinking blood, eating pigs, eating the dead etc. as for drinking alcohol Allah swt did not say in the Quran clearly that it is haram, but what he actually said "fajtanibouh" which literally means avoid it, BUT in Sahih Bukhari (which you doubt it's authenticity) the Prophet peace be upon him quoted clearly in many hadeeths that drinking Alcohol is HARAM.

so did you get my point Baahith the HARAM is CLEAR in the Quran and the Sunnah, but people nowadays they call everything HARAM, the word haram becomes on everybody's tongue like breathing air!!!

going back to the issue of pictures and statues they are not HARAM to put inside one's house same like for example having a mini bar with bottles of whisky and champaign, but if you are not bothered about angels visiting your house, go ahead and make your house an art gallery!!!:)

[Reluctant]

Narrated 'Aisha: I stuffed for the Prophet a pillow decorated with pictures (of animals) which looked like a Namruqa (i.e. a small cushion). He came and stood among the people with excitement apparent on his face. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is wrong?" He said, "What is this pillow?" I said, "I have prepared this pillow for you, so that you may recline on it." He said, "Don't you know that angels do not enter a house wherein there are pictures; and whoever makes a picture will be punished on the Day of Resurrection and will be asked to give life to (what he has created)?" Sahih Bukhari Book #54, Hadith #447

Narrated Muslim: We were with Masruq at the house of Yasar bin Numair. Masruq saw pictures on his terrace and said, "I heard 'Abdullah saying that he heard the Prophet saying, "The people who will receive the severest punishment from Allah will be the picture makers.'" Sahih Bukhari Book #72, Hadith #834

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: I heard Muhammad saying, "Whoever makes a picture in this world will be asked to put life into it on the Day of Resurrection, but he will not be able to do so." Sahih Bukhari Book #72, Hadith #846

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, "Whoever claims to have seen a dream which he did not see, will be ordered to make a knot between two barley grains which he will not be able to do; and if somebody listens to the talk of some people who do not like him (to listen) or they run away from him, then molten lead will be poured into his ears on the Day of Resurrection; and whoever makes a picture, will be punished on the Day of Resurrection and will be ordered to put a soul in that picture, which he will not be able to do." Sahih Bukhari Book #87, Hadith #165

Narrated Said bin Abu Al-Hasan: While I was with Ibn 'Abbas a man came and said, "O father of 'Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures." Ibn 'Abbas said, "I will tell you only what I heard from Allah's Apostle . I heard him saying, 'Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.' " Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn 'Abbas said to him, "What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects." Sahih Bukhari Book #34, Hadith #428

A'isha reported that she bought a carpet which had pictures on it. When Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saw that, he stayed at the door and did not get in. I perceived or I was made to perceive upon his face signs of disgust. She said: Allah's Messenger, I offer repentance to Allah and His Messenger. (but tell me) what is the sin that I have committed. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: What is this carpet? She said: I bought it for you so that you might sit on it and take rest. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The owners of these pictures would be tormented and they would be asked to bring to life what they tried to create. He then said: Angels do not enter the house in which there is a picture. Sahih Muslim Book #24, Hadith #5266

Muslim b. Subaih reported: I was with Masriuq in the house which had the portrayals of Mary (hadrat Maryan). Thereupon Masriuq said: These are portraits of Kisra. I said: No, these are of Mary. Masruq said: I heard Abdullah b, Mas'ud as saying Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had said: The most grievously tormented people on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures. (Muslim said): I read this before Nasr b. 'Ali at-Jahdami and he read it before other narrators, the last one being Ibn Sa'id b Abl at Hasan that a person came to Ibn 'Abbas and said: I am the person who paints pictures; give me a religious verdict about them. He (Ibn 'Abbas) said to him: Come near me (still further). He came near him so much so that he placed his hand upon his head and said: I am going to narrate to you what I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I heard him say: All the painters who make pictures would be in the fire of Hell. The soul will be breathed in every picture prepared by him and it shall punish him in the Hell, and he (Ibn 'Abbas) said: If you have to do it at all, then paint the pictures of trees and lifeless things; and Nasr b. 'Ali confirmed it. Sahih Muslim Book #24, Hadith #5272

So you see, it's not just people who make pictures, but people who own them and contribute in any way to the picture making. If you don't want to put a label of haram or halal on it that's fine, but it's clearly something that we will be punished for, and thus if you consider these authentic I would want to treat as haram and avoid.

[clouds]

So you see, it's not just people who make pictures, but people who own them and contribute in any way to the picture making. If you don't want to put a label of haram or halal on it that's fine, but it's clearly something that we will be punished for, and thus if you consider these authentic I would want to treat as haram and avoid.

Baahith there is a difference between actually making or drawing a picture and owning them.

ALL the authentic Hadeeths you mentioned actually threatens the people who make or draw pictures which resembles living creatures BUT not for the ones who own them.

the one who owns such pictures and put them actually on display as the various hadeeths stated then the angels will not enter their homes and that's it, but nothing is mentioned about tormenting them in the life after!!

so I see no harm in owning pictures of the family and friends and put them in an album for example or hiding them away.

[Reluctant]

............

[clouds]

^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wudjab]

I guess all those who contributed to the Dare to Show post are in trouble....

[SABAA]

all muslims know dogs are not clean and they can't enter any muslim house ......except ..........the yard of house to protect owner this house . but if we look at these blind ppl i think in this case it's ok if the dogs guide blind person to masjid but the dog still out masjid in special room with special person to take care of it. that's it.

[Mr Tickle]

Cloudy,

There are millions of pure black dogs in the world

do you truly believe they all possessed by the devil?

PS What about black cats? or hamsters? or birds? or rodents? or fish?

[wudjab]

Are all things black bad ?

[Jeff]

Baahith there is a difference between actually making or drawing a picture and owning them.

ALL the authentic Hadeeths you mentioned actually threatens the people who make or draw pictures which resembles living creatures BUT not for the ones who own them.

the one who owns such pictures and put them actually on display as the various hadeeths stated then the angels will not enter their homes and that's it, but nothing is mentioned about tormenting them in the life after!!

so I see no harm in owning pictures of the family and friends and put them in an album for example or hiding them away.

One of the hadiths clearly says "owners" not picture makers.

And the first hadith has Mohammed getting upset at the GIFT of pictures.

And it doesn't seem logical that MAKING pictures is evil, but HAVING them is okay.

Are you saying that making them is bad, but having them after they are made is okay? Why is making them bad then?

It seems like if you put these hadiths together with the one that says angels won't visit a house with pictures, you get a pretty clear "picture" that making, owning, having pictures is bad.

At least if you take the general approach that you do in interpretation.

[Reluctant]

Yes Jeff, your thoughts are analogous to Islam's stance toward alcohol:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has cursed wine, its drinker, its server, its seller, its buyer, its presser, the one for whom it is pressed, the one who conveys it, and the one to whom it is conveyed. Sunan Abu Dawud Book #26, Hadith #3666

It doesn't matter if you don't drink alcohol and consider it forbidden, yet still sell or facilitate its consumption in other ways. You are just contributing to the thing that is ultimately haram. Making images is clearly forbidden, so why aid and abet something haram? It actually reminds me of a Shia fatwa that I read recently: It is haram to buy, sell, or manufacture musical instruments, but it's halal to listen to music as long as it is music that cannot be used at gatherings and does not incite immorality. A strange fatwa (and it doesn't even reflect the true stance in their hadiths), however, the point is, why listen to music if you consider the manufacture and selling of the tools that made the product you are listening to to be forbidden? And you are right, the hadith did say "owners." And it is no different than these situations. If you want to write off the hadith then that's fine, but I think that as you said, you can't contribute to this type of thing if you consider one aspect forbidden because tacitly you are supporting the other aspects.

[clouds]

Cloudy,

There are millions of pure black dogs in the world

do you truly believe they all possessed by the devil?

PS What about black cats? or hamsters? or birds? or rodents? or fish?

Mr Tickle I am not being a racist and I have nothing about dogs in general they are Allah's creatures, but Allah swt created good and he created evil be it in humans, Jinns or in this case animals and namely pure black dogs, as they possess devil as the Prophet pbuh told us in the hadeeths I mentioned earlier.

[clouds]

.

One of the hadiths clearly says "owners" not picture makers.

do you mean this hadeeth Jeff?

The owners of these pictures would be tormented and they would be asked to bring to life what they tried to create. He then said: Angels do not enter the house in which there is a picture. Sahih Muslim Book #24, Hadith #5266

as you know Jeff I am not so fluent in English language but at the same time I am not that dumb:)
the word owners in the above hadeeth DOES NOT mean the people who actually owns those pictures but if you read the whole sentence which says "they would be asked to bring to life what they tried to create" the word they refers to the people who actually makes and create those pictures NOT the people who owns them.

And the first hadith has Mohammed getting upset at the GIFT of pictures.

yes the Prophet peace be upon him was upset becuse those pictures are of living creatures, and his wife Aysha(RA) made a pillow (masnad) case out of those pictures, and put it on DISPLAY and that's what made him upset.

And it doesn't seem logical that MAKING pictures is evil, but HAVING them is okay.

as I said before it's okay to own such pictures as long as NOT to put them on DISPLAY like hanging them on walls etc. but they can be stored in albums away from eyes( in case of photographs).

Are you saying that making them is bad, but having them after they are made is okay? Why is making them bad then?

yes making portraits of living creatures are bad and forbidden in Islam, and of course having them or buying them in order to put them on display is also bad and forbidden.
why making them is bad? because it's a bad attempt of the powerless human who can't create even a fly to compete with Allah's perfect creation.
It seems like if you put these hadiths together with the one that says angels won't visit a house with pictures, you get a pretty clear "picture" that making, owning, having pictures is bad.
At least if you take the general approach that you do in interpretation.

as I said before nothing said in the Hadeeths about owning or having pictures is bad as long as they are not put on DISPLAY in the house.

[Reluctant]

Good points clouds, JazakAllah khair.

[clouds]

Yes Jeff, your thoughts are analogous to Islam's stance toward alcohol:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has cursed wine, its drinker, its server, its seller, its buyer, its presser, the one for whom it is pressed, the one who conveys it, and the one to whom it is conveyed. Sunan Abu Dawud Book #26, Hadith #3666

It doesn't matter if you don't drink alcohol and consider it forbidden, yet still sell or facilitate its consumption in other ways. You are just contributing to the thing that is ultimately haram. Making images is clearly forbidden, so why aid and abet something haram? .

Baahith, can you see now my point why using analogy or "Qiyas" in Islam can lead us to wrong conclusions!!!

you have given a good example if we are to use analogy on the pictures hadeeth and equal it to the alcohol hadeeth you mentioned.

and there is no comparison what so ever between the two, and we can't assume that people who buy such pictures or sell them or manufacture them or carry them are sinners and committing "haram" actions!!

the Prophet pbuh was very specific in ALL his pictures hadeeths that the sinners are ONLY the people who make them, unlike the wine or alcohol hadeeth.

[wudjab]

Clouds,

What date does it show on your calendar ?

[mimosa]

What a lot of waffle about nothing.

Sorry, I misunderstood this decision originally: On the basis that the dog is allowed to be left inside the mosque area, and not the actual prayer hall (which in reality is the only part of the mosque that is really the mosque), I think it's a nice piece of open-mindedness and flexibility that helps a brother carry out his duties, and doesn't interfere with anyone else.

[Jeff]

One of the hadiths clearly says "owners" not picture makers.

do you mean this hadeeth Jeff?


as you know Jeff I am not so fluent in English language but at the same time I am not that dumb:)
the word owners in the above hadeeth DOES NOT mean the people who actually owns those pictures but if you read the whole sentence which says "they would be asked to bring to life what they tried to create" the word they refers to the people who actually makes and create those pictures NOT the people who owns them.

And the first hadith has Mohammed getting upset at the GIFT of pictures.

yes the Prophet peace be upon him was upset becuse those pictures are of living creatures, and his wife Aysha(RA) made a pillow (masnad) case out of those pictures, and put it on DISPLAY and that's what made him upset.

And it doesn't seem logical that MAKING pictures is evil, but HAVING them is okay.

as I said before it's okay to own such pictures as long as NOT to put them on DISPLAY like hanging them on walls etc. but they can be stored in albums away from eyes( in case of photographs).

Are you saying that making them is bad, but having them after they are made is okay? Why is making them bad then?

yes making portraits of living creatures are bad and forbidden in Islam, and of course having them or buying them in order to put them on display is also bad and forbidden.
why making them is bad? because it's a bad attempt of the powerless human who can't create even a fly to compete with Allah's perfect creation.
It seems like if you put these hadiths together with the one that says angels won't visit a house with pictures, you get a pretty clear "picture" that making, owning, having pictures is bad.
At least if you take the general approach that you do in interpretation.

as I said before nothing said in the Hadeeths about owning or having pictures is bad as long as they are not put on DISPLAY in the house.

Unless you are saying something about the word corresponding to "owners" in Arabic, I have to say that "owner" doesn't mean "creator": it means "owner"...someone who possesses something.

If that's the word in Arabic, I'm afraid you're stuck.

I think then you have to read the stuff about attempting to create things as something that those who possess pictures participate in as well as the creators.

I don't think we can "English" our way around that. Though we could "Arabic" our way around it ... but only if it's a bad translation.

As far as owning pictures but not putting them on display...well you are displaying pictures in your house now with this computer on!

And who on earth has pictures but doesn't put them on display?

Or are you saying it's fine to display them in a mosque or a car but not a house?

Doesn't sound plausible to me.

[Jeff]

And more evidence, though I cannot vouch for it other than it appears to come from Sahih Muslim:


Hadith - Muslim, Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib

AbulHayyaj al-Asadi told that Ali ibn AbuTalib said to him: Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling it. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.



http://muttaqun.com/pictures.html

[clouds]

.


Unless you are saying something about the word corresponding to "owners" in Arabic, I have to say that "owner" doesn't mean "creator": it means "owner"...someone who possesses something.

If that's the word in Arabic, I'm afraid you're stuck.

I looked the exact Arabic hadeeth which has the word "owners" in it:


A'isha reported that she bought a carpet which had pictures on it. When Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saw that, he stayed at the door and did not get in. I perceived or I was made to perceive upon his face signs of disgust. She said: Allah's Messenger, I offer repentance to Allah and His Messenger. (but tell me) what is the sin that I have committed. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: What is this carpet? She said: I bought it for you so that you might sit on it and take rest. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The owners of these pictures would be tormented and they would be asked to bring to life what they tried to create. He then said: Angels do not enter the house in which there is a picture. Sahih Muslim Book #24, Hadith #5266

it's literal translation in Arabic is:

أنها اشترت نمرقة فيها تصاوير . فلما رآها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قام على الباب فلم يدخل . فعرفت ، أو فعرفت ، في وجهه الكراهية . فقالت : يا رسول الله ! أتوب إلى الله وإلى رسوله . فماذا أذنبت ؟ فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ( ما بال هذه النمرقة ؟ ) فقالت : اشتريتها لك . تقعد عليها وتوسدها . فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ( إن أصحاب هذه الصور يعذبون . ويقال لهم : أحيوا ما خلقتم ) ثم قال ( إن البيت الذي فيه الصور لا تدخله الملائكة ) .
الراوي: عائشة المحدث: مسلم - المصدر: المسند الصحيح - الصفحة أو الرقم: 2107
خلاصة الدرجة: صحيح

I know Jeff you can't read Arabic , but the word in red above which is pronounced "ashab" it actually means owners, but if put in this context "they tried to create" then it's automatically understood that "ashab" or owners" refers to the ones who made or tried to create such pictures.



I think then you have to read the stuff about attempting to create things as something that those who possess pictures participate in as well as the creators.

the owners of such pictures are not sinners at all and there is no hadeeth which says that they are, only angels will not enter their houses if they put such pictures on display ie walls, shelves, etc.


I don't think we can "English" our way around that. Though we could "Arabic" our way around it ... but only if it's a bad translation.

Yes may be it's bad translation, what I think the translator should do to put between brackets the word (makers) infront of the word owners.

As far as owning pictures but not putting them on display...well you are displaying pictures in your house now with this computer on!

The Prophet pbuh was specific about what type of pictures could lead it's maker to tormant in hellfire and those pictures are the ones drawn or painted by hand of living creatures (humans and animals), and nothing said about computers or TV's or anything else, so they are allowed:)


And who on earth has pictures but doesn't put them on display?

ME :)

Or are you saying it's fine to display them in a mosque or a car but not a house?

WHAAAAT!!! a MOSQUE!!!!PICTURES of LIVING CREATURES DISPLAYED!!!!

Jeff have you been inside a Mosque ever?

[Jeff]

Unless you are saying something about the word corresponding to "owners" in Arabic, I have to say that "owner" doesn't mean "creator": it means "owner"...someone who possesses something.

If that's the word in Arabic, I'm afraid you're stuck.

I looked the exact Arabic hadeeth which has the word "owners" in it:



it's literal translation in Arabic is:


I know Jeff you can't read Arabic , but the word in red above which is pronounced "ashab" it actually means owners, but if put in this context "they tried to create" then it's automatically understood that "ashab" or owners" refers to the ones who made or tried to create such pictures.



I think then you have to read the stuff about attempting to create things as something that those who possess pictures participate in as well as the creators.

the owners of such pictures are not sinners at all and there is no hadeeth which says that they are, only angels will not enter their houses if they put such pictures on display ie walls, shelves, etc.


I don't think we can "English" our way around that. Though we could "Arabic" our way around it ... but only if it's a bad translation.

Yes may be it's bad translation, what I think the translator should do to put between brackets the word (makers) infront of the word owners.

As far as owning pictures but not putting them on display...well you are displaying pictures in your house now with this computer on!

The Prophet pbuh was specific about what type of pictures could lead it's maker to tormant in hellfire and those pictures are the ones drawn or painted by hand of living creatures (humans and animals), and nothing said about computers or TV's or anything else, so they are allowed:)


And who on earth has pictures but doesn't put them on display?

ME :)

Or are you saying it's fine to display them in a mosque or a car but not a house?

WHAAAAT!!! a MOSQUE!!!!PICTURES of LIVING CREATURES DISPLAYED!!!!

Jeff have you been inside a Mosque ever?

Well, let's get some input on that word in red, shall we? Can it really mean 'makers' and not 'owners' in a particular context? Perhaps baa7ith can check that in a dictionary or something. Can you give me another context in which it means makers and not owners? There's a fine line between meaning and interpretation and it seems to me you are seeking an interpretation here. Because others, including the Muslim site I just cited, seem to interpret the word to forbid ownership of images.

I don't see any distinction by the Prophet in any hadith listed between things 'drawn' and things conjured in another way by hand. So far as I can tell all ways available back then were illicit: drawing, painting, sculpting.

Now we have other ways of using your hands to produce an image...pushing buttons and typing on a computer screen. Seems to me that that's the same thing, unless you want to say that a cripple who paints with his feet is fine! :p

Obviously, the point of making pictures is to look at them and to let others look at them. If you want me to believe that you keep pictures but don't look at them, I will! ;)

So far, I have a hadith that says owners of pictures are condemned with a caveat only from you, not from the translator who also speaks Arabic, that it doesn't REALLY mean owners.

And I have another hadith which says that if you see a picture, don't leave without destroying it.

And I have a hadith of the prophet getting upset at the gift of a picture on a pillow and not saying anything about it being okay as long as you keep it in your tent and not your house.

And I have your own admission that -- obviously -- images don't belong in mosques, even though mosques are not homes.

I don't object to your interpretation, you know. It seems moderate and sensible. But it doesn't seem 'literalist'. It seems to me if you want to be a literalist, you have to say images are just wrong to have around.

But you have to decide for yourself! :cute:

[UmKhalid]

I remember Threadlike explaining the issue about Drawing.

He even provided a detailed and very logical fatwa by Sheikh Yusuf Al Qaradhawi.

The conclusion was that: Your intention, what you draw, and the message behind the drawing is what determines if it is Halal or Not.

And from what I know about the word Tasweer in the Arabic language, when it is now used for Photographing, it was before used for Sculpturing.



Oh and clouds, no way I'm PMing you with my Uncle's address. I don't want to see the devil dog dead.

[Jeff]

I remember Threadlike explaining the issue about Drawing.

He even provided a detailed and very logical fatwa by Sheikh Yusuf Al Qaradhawi.

The conclusion was that: Your intention, what you draw, and the message behind the drawing is what determines if it is Halal or Not.

And from what I know about the word Tasweer in the Arabic language, when it is now used for Photographing, it was before used for Sculpturing.



Oh and clouds, no way I'm PMing you with my Uncle's address. I don't want to see the devil dog dead.

This makes a lot of sense to me, far more than clouds' hairsplitting and logic chopping.

Looking behind rules for the reasons behind them is sometimes the only way to be faithful to them. If you don't take that approach, you are often left with the shell but not the nut!

[UmKhalid]

Looking behind rules for the reasons behind them is sometimes the only way to be faithful to them. If you don't take that approach, you are often left with the shell but not the nut!


You're right, we should see the reasons behind why it was forbidden.

From I know, I wasn't sure so I didn't write it down, but I'll share anyway, it is because people had only just left paganism to monotheism. They needed time for faith to truly settle in their hearts and any bits of paganism to leave.

It is just like the issue of forbidding visiting to graves. Again, a matter of Ijtihaad which clouds so violently is against for some curious reason.

I wonder what clouds has to say about those who draw portraits of alleged criminals? It helps a lot in finding the criminal and bringing him or her to justice, and these portraits are not 'destroyed' later on.

[Jeff]

You're right, we should see the reasons behind why it was forbidden.

From I know, I wasn't sure so I didn't write it down, but I'll share anyway, it is because people had only just left paganism to monotheism. They needed time for faith to truly settle in their hearts and any bits of paganism to leave.

It is just like the issue of forbidding visiting to graves. Again, a matter of Ijtihaad which clouds so violently is against for some curious reason.

I wonder what clouds has to say about those who draw portraits of alleged criminals? It helps a lot in finding the criminal and bringing him or her to justice, and these portraits are not 'destroyed' later on.

I understand the mindset of people like clouds. After all, if you don't watch out all the rules will just go away just because they are difficult or inconvenient.

But: sometimes there's really no choice.

As you point out about the sketches of criminals, the rule gets swallowed up by exceptions and you have to step back and take a new look at what it's all about.

When you have computers with millions of images and pictures for good reasons everywhere, you are living in a situation in which pictures are unavoidable and the situation is changed and you have to reexamine.

Otherwise you wind up saying that painting a picture of a your friend will send you to hell, but taking his photograph won't. Or printing out after photoshopping an image on a computer won't get you hell, but tracing over it with your pencil will.