Does Islam Condemn Priesthood?

[UmKhalid]

I was thinking about posting this question before but forgot, I was reminded by it when I read the comments on the thread about the priest.

"Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: "We are Christians;" this is because there are Priests and Monks among them and because they do not behave proudly." / "And when they hear what has been revealed to the messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of thetruth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, sowrite us down with the witnesses (of truth)" - [5:82,83]



Isn't the reason interesting?

From what I see, although in Islam we do not have 'Priesthood' and it is Forbidden, that hasn't stopped the Qur'an from addressing them in such a nice manner.

Also here, in Surat Al Hadid:

"Then We made Our messengers to follow in their footsteps, and We sent Jesus son of Mary afterwards, and We gave him the Bible, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy; and (as for) monkery, they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to them-- only to seek Allah's pleasure, but they did not observe it with its due observance; so We gave to those of them who believed their reward, and most of them are transgressors." - [52:27]

Here is another verse, I read that it means that they made it up (As we believe in Islam), but the verse also explains that they made it up because they believed it is a way to 'Seek Allah's Pleasure'.

[marianna]

From what I understand Islam admires the modesty of the Priest since they tend to eek out a living in a modest manner. Along with covering, their devotion to religious duty etc.

[Jeff]

Not a question I can answer for Muslims...but this question of how to reconcile verses is particularly interesting because it comes up again and again.

It all depends on how you weight them...

I find fascinating the emphasis on the lack of pride among monks and priests and that it is particularly they and not the ordinary Christian believers who are singled out.

[Reluctant]

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet asking how the Prophet worshiped (Allah), and when they were informed about that, they considered their worship insufficient and said, "Where are we from the Prophet as his past and future sins have been forgiven." Then one of them said, "I will offer the prayer throughout the night forever." The other said, "I will fast throughout the year and will not break my fast." The third said, "I will keep away from the women and will not marry forever." Allah's Apostle came to them and said, "Are you the same people who said so-and-so? By Allah, I am more submissive to Allah and more afraid of Him than you; yet I fast and break my fast, I do sleep and I also marry women. So he who does not follow my tradition in religion, is not from me (not one of my followers)." Sahih Bukhari Book #62, Hadith #1

2:143 Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves;

28:77 "But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: but do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: for Allah loves not those who do mischief."

Asceticism and extremes are not part of Islam, we are expected to be moderate and live a balanced life between the duties and obligations of this world and remembering the hereafter.

[UmKhalid]

baa7ith, thanks a lot for sharing these hadiths!

The way I see the first hadeeth is that it explains the second verse. Priesthood was innovated because they believed it was the way to gain God's pleasure.

The three men who refrained from eating, marrying and sleeping wanted to do it to please God. Their intention was good, but their actions were wrong.

But Islamically, it is seen as extreme as you explained. I have no other opinion but the Islamic one regarding the matter, being in the middle, between the two extremes, is the best.

-----

I think I made a bad job trying to explain it in the first post, but Marianna understood what I was pointing at in the verse:

From what I understand Islam admires the modesty of the Priest since they tend to eek out a living in a modest manner. Along with covering, their devotion to religious duty etc.


She is right. The Qur'an talkes in a beautiful way about the Modesty of these Priests and Nuns, how if you spoke to them about God, their hearts soften and their eyes start to tear.

What I see could be wrong or right, but this is what I see: The Qur'an speaks beautifully about these people, it condemns that the innovation of Priesthood, but only for their sake, because God knows we are human and He knows what is best for us. The intention behind Priesthood is nice, but the idea of Priesthood cannot be accepted, because it is not Natural, does not go with the way God created us, and He knows best.

Now despite that, the Qur'an mentions that the Christians are closer to us because ... of the priests! What I understand, again I could be wrong, that although Priesthood is wrong in Islam, that does not mean we should not honestly admit that Priests are wonderful, Modest, people whose eyes tear when they hear the revelations of God.


My question is: Do we have the right, after reading these verses, to say that Priests are bad? And that if a Priest commits a sin like child molesting, would it be fair to generalize this on all the others who are devoted to their religion?

[Jeff]

I don't know if it makes any difference to your thinking, UmK, but I thought it might interest you.

Monks, by definition, are celibate. They follow vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. A married monk is a contradiction in terms. "Married monk" is like "dry water".

But I had dinner with a married priest and his wife a couple of weeks ago. A Catholic priest.

In the Eastern churches, married men may be ordained. If they become widowers, they remain unmarried.

In the Western church, priests are chosen from among men who wish to remain celibate.

All Christians are recommended to remain unmarried and chaste...with the understanding that most will not be able to do so. But we are in a position of waiting for the Bridegroom to return!

You are pulling on some fascinating strings...I enjoy when I do that with Islam! I start to pull and more and more interesting things begin to emerge...

[UmKhalid]

Vielen dank (Many thanks) for the clarification! I always thought priests did not marry, I think now hopefully it would be clearer for us all.

So if someone says "Those priests commited those sins because priesthood forbids marriage" ... that wouldn't make sense? (Because from what I understood: Priesthood does not forbid marriage?)

[Jeff]

Vielen dank (Many thanks) for the clarification! I always thought priests did not marry, I think now hopefully it would be clearer for us all.

So if someone says "Those priests commited those sins because priesthood forbids marriage" ... that wouldn't make sense? (Because from what I understood: Priesthood does not forbid marriage?)

Umm, not quite. It's confusing.

Priests are not forbidden by nature from marrying. The Church could allow married men to be ordained priests.

In the Eastern churches, the custom is that a married man may be ordained. But if his wife dies, he may not remarry. He must remain celibate.

In the Western churches, the custom is that only unmarried men may be ordained and they are expected to remain unmarried.

This is a long and theologically deep tradition. But it is POSSIBLE for priests to be married or even remarry.

The idea of a priest is not necessarily to be unmarried.

But the whole IDEA of a monk is to follow the Evangelical Counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience. If you want to marry, or own things, or decide how to run your own life instead of following a superior, it just means you don't want to be a monk. That's what a monk is.

Does it make sense?

[UmKhalid]

Yes I think I kind of understand, I can't say I fully understand but I get the picture.

It is not Encouraged ... but it's Possible ... I hope I understood.

But I think it still doesn't make my point invalid.


--
The verse says: قسيسين = Priests and رهبان= Monks. I should have understood there was a distinction! :think:

[Jeff]

Yes I think I kind of understand, I can't say I fully understand but I get the picture.

It is not Encouraged ... but it's Possible ... I hope I understood.

But I think it still doesn't make my point invalid.


--
The verse says: قسيسين = Priests and رهبان= Monks. I should have understood there was a distinction! :think:

Possible only in theory among Roman Catholics. But not allowed.

Common among Eastern Catholics and Orthodox.

If Fr. Pokorsky got married, he would be stripped of all power to function as a priest and excommunicated. Because when he became a priest, he promised not to marry as all Roman Catholic priests do.

To make it more complicated, some monks are also priests and some are not! :p

[Jeff]

I think I've muddied the waters with my complicated explanations! :p

You had the right idea in the beginning and I just added confusion. So I hope you'll forgive me... :)

[UmKhalid]

:os...!

I'll better wait till tomorrow morning to read it again because it's getting too late and I think my brain needs some charging for it to grasp this :p

(Just saw the other post, no don't apologize, it's great that you're explaining this, I don't even know if I'll ever have another chance to understand it, so I really appreciate you explaining this)

[Reluctant]

I have a few thoughts, I hope I'll be able to post them tomorrow. : )

[Jeff]

Here is an article I just happened on completely by accident about a Muslim American of Sudanese origin who spent time in a Trappist monastery:


After 9/11, as many Americans began to learn more about Islam, I embarked on a long journey to learn more about Christianity, visiting churches, attending Bible schools and volunteering for projects like feeding the poor and sheltering the homeless.

After 28 years as a journalist covering politicians in the U.S. capital for Arab newspapers and magazines, I had grown cynical about politics and politicians.

This feeling intensified after the invasion of Iraq when I realized that most of them and most of the American media, in moments of fear, anger and revenge, supported the invasion of a distant country that didn't threaten the United States.

I found the people I met in churches more trustful and welcoming. No one asked me about my religion or what I was doing in a church. Encouraged, I immersed myself in Christianity, and it wasn't long before I was able to recite the Lord's Prayer and most of the words of "Amazing Grace."

As I continued my exploration, I found myself last week at the Holy Cross Abbey, a Roman Catholic monastery sheltered by the Blue Ridge mountains in the Shenandoah valley of Virginia, about 60 miles west of Washington.

For about 40 years, since I saw "The Sound of Music" for the first time, I have been fascinated by monasteries and curious about the lives of monks and nuns who live in them.

The monk in charge of the monastery's guesthouse showed me my simple room. He said all the monastery's 15 guest rooms were always booked in advance, "except one room we always leave for an unexpected visitor, as part of an old European tradition of hospitality."

The rooms had no telephones, televisions, radios or keys. The doors locked only from inside. Loud music was not allowed and cell phones were only to be used outside the building.

Meals were served promptly at noon and 6:25 p.m., and guests were warned in advance: "If you are arriving at 6:30, please have dinner beforehand."

The dining hall was simple but elegant, meals were vegetarian, and guests helped themselves, cleaned the dishes afterwards and set the tables for the following meal.

The meals, like the rooms, were free, but an offering could be left in an envelope in each room.

I was overwhelmed by the silence. From 3 p.m. Friday until 3 p.m. Sunday, I didn't talk, except for a secluded 30-minute meeting with a priest, whispered greetings and small talk revolving around questions like: Where is the sugar and cream?

It was Ramadan, the Muslim fasting month, and my fast added to the sense of solitude and silence.

Then there were the 10 daily prayers, five Christian (in the church) and five Muslim (in my room): "Vigil" at 3:30 a.m.; "Fajr" (dawn) at 5; "Lauds" at 7; "Zohr" (afternoon) at 1; "Midday" at 2; "Asr" (evening) at 4; "Vespers" at 5:30; "Maghrib" (sunset) at 6:55; "Compline" at 7:30; and "Isha'a" (night) at 8:30.

There were some awkward moments. As when, at 4 a.m., I entered the guesthouse kitchen alone to prepare and eat "sahoor," the last meal before fasting. Or when dinner was served exactly at 6:25, 30 minutes before sunset.

But the monk in charge of the guesthouse kindly left a meal for me to eat after sunset. (Every afternoon, nuns came to the guesthouse kitchen, prepared dinner and left).

During the Sunday service I was sprinkled with holy water as I chanted "Cleanse us, Lord, from all our sins; wash us, and we shall be cleaner than snow."

I declared: "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen."

I wanted to receive Communion, but the rules exclude non-Catholics.

Father Stephen, a senior monk, and I talked - very quietly - for 30 minutes. I started by explaining that I was running away from Washington politicians.

We talked about hypocrisy and lying, about the influence of money in politics, about Jesus and his message of peace, love and compassion for the less fortunate. We lamented the current atmosphere of fear, violence and war.

When we stood up to say goodbye, he promised: "I will put your name on the bulletin board and ask the monks to pray for you."

Mohammad Ali Salih is an Arab journalist based in Washington.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/05/news/edsalih.php

[UmKhalid]

Ok this might be a silly question, but I just really want to know how you as a Christian would feel if there were people like Mohammed Salih who despite being Muslim was able to acknowledge that there is good in the other? I remember the video where people who were non-Muslims talked about the Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: nicely, we thought, wow, they'e non-Muslims but that did not stop them from seeing what's good in Islam, we appreciated that a lot.

[Jeff]

You mean how would I feel if there were Christians who could acknowledge the good in Islam?

I was hoping I was one of those! :(

Or is that question directed to someone else?

[UmKhalid]

The opposite :p

Same question but replace Christian with Muslim and Islam with Christianity.


... But the answer you gave to the question you raised is lovely. :) I wish I was one of those who acknowledged what was good and wise from anyone too.

[Jeff]

Well, I like it!

I mean, I like what Mr. Mohammed said and what he was trying to do. I'd love to go to a monastery with Braiki for example and stay a few days! :)

I like it from them, I like it from you, I like it from Threadlike and from others here and elsewhere.

Now I don't blame Christians and Muslims who say, "Wait, let's be careful not to compromise the Truth." That's important too.

But I think we have to acknowledge truth and beauty and goodness and the grace of God wherever we find it. We should be careful, but we shouldn't be frightened. We should just put ourselves in God's hands and trust Him.