View Full Version : 12 year old saudi boy guardian of older sister...mother
marianna
09-09-08, 12:55 AM
My mouth dropped when I read this blog entry and wanted the opinions of those here (esp. Omani ladies in regards to this and how it relates to Islam):
One can argue with me all day that it is Islam that has imposed a guardianship upon women. I will in fact disagree based upon Islam itself that there has never been an intended definition of guardianship for women as we have now. Women should be seen as full grown capable adults able to make decisions for themselves per Islams view. Rather than constant minors incapable of making life's decisions without the ok and control of men.
To try to convince me that women need a guardians approval to travel when she is 35 years old is like trying to cool the flames of hell with an ice cube. Simply not going to happen. If Aisha ra the widow of Muhammad pbuh could make a decision to go forth and travel with the intent of battle and not be condemned for doing so, than I say a woman can decide if she wants to travel to Bahrain to go see her relatives.
There are many issues when it comes to the legal guardianship of full grown women. I for one not only find it to be a source of control and rule that man have over women. But also to be one that is contradictory over the liberating teachings of Islam when it comes to the matters of women. To state in one sentence that Islam liberated women 1400 years ago than take on a position that she is forever a minor with no say over her life is a full blown contradiction that can never be resolved. Yes I'm sure many men like it this way, to suggest anything else is a violation of their comfort. However when a widowed mother of three can not obtain a passport in order to travel with her children across the border to see her brother and his family without looking toward her 12 year old as her own legal guardian I would suggest that the coma ridden individuals who think this is a good idea finally awaken from their slumber.
It is seriously past time these outdated and incorrect ideas are changed in Saudi.
Read the rest here (http://nzinghas.blogspot.com/2008/09/realities-of-womans-life.html)
Well Marianna this is NOT really a "Saudi" imposed issue.
It's a "Quran" imposed issue.
marianna
09-09-08, 01:07 AM
But the Muslima says it's not...so who is right?
But the Muslima says it's not...so who is right?The Muslima must have not read the Quran ...
I'd say read the Quran and find out. Infact we don't even need to go to hadith/sunna for this one but they will also show this is correct.
marianna
09-09-08, 01:11 AM
If Aisha ra the widow of Muhammad pbuh could make a decision to go forth and travel with the intent of battle and not be condemned for doing so, than I say a woman can decide if she wants to travel to Bahrain to go see her relatives.
For me, this makes sense...and esp. if a woman is say 35 years of age...who wants a child as her guardian?
toxic_honey
09-09-08, 01:34 AM
yeah so?
if hes dad is dead and no one can be the man of his house he can be!
and jack plz dont act u know it all beacuse it seems like U dont!
minerva
09-09-08, 01:36 AM
yeah so?
if hes dad is dead and no one can be the man of his house he can be!
and jack plz dont act u know it all beacuse it seems like U dont!
but man of the house in what sense? is he going to work to feed the family and take responsability for his mother? or are there other things that mean 'man of the house'? i'd understand it if he was 18, but i think it's too much of a responsability for a 12 year old....a child.
yeah so?
if hes dad is dead and no one can be the man of his house he can be!
and jack plz dont act u know it all beacuse it seems like U dont!
Thank you TH for comfirming that on this one ... I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Well Marianna this is NOT really a "Saudi" imposed issue.
It's a "Quran" imposed issue.
Jack please Don't mention the Word Quran ever, your too filthy to do that.
Stay out of our Religion please it has nothing to do with you, we like it just the way it is and with all its rules imposed.
I have read your Blog and i know what kinda of a guy you are.
I even made a thread just to see people's opinion about someone like you.
If i was a moderator i would have Banned you For life.
Jack please Don't mention the Word Quran ever, your too filthy to do that.
Stay out of our Religion please it has nothing to do with you, we like it just the way it is and with all its rules imposed.
I have read your Blog and i know what kinda of a guy you are.
I even made a thread just to see people's opinion about someone like you.
If i was a moderator i would have Banned you For life.Another confirmation that I have this one correct ...
Thank you Pucca ... XOXO
And btw if you read what the muslima wrote she does not deny the Quran either ... she just thinks that some of the rules from the past should not apply today.
Which I would be in agreement ... but unfortunately they do.
marianna
09-09-08, 01:52 AM
For me, am just curious because this woman is Muslim and lives in Saudi and Bahrain and the sister in law simply wants someone older to be her guardian. Just not her son.
Another confirmation that I have this one correct ...
Thank you Pucca ... XOXO
YOu don't know shi$ lol
Just don't ever say anything about my religion ok
“And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "to us our deeds and to you yours; peace be to you. [Qur'an 28: 55] ”
Mariana, a 12 years old boy could be a guardian or what we call in Arabic as "Mahram" to his mother or sister, if they decided to travel more than one mile (1.5 kms), never mind travelling all the way from Saudi to Bahrain!!!!
there are many authentic Hadeeths which affirm this fact like what it means " a woman should not travel alone without a mahram" some hadeeths actually mentioned the actual distance which is minimum one mile.
me personally I don't allow my wife (45 years old) or my daughter ( 12 years old) go anywhere more than one mile without my company or if I am busy my son (13 years old) will be their guardian or "mahram".
this is our Islam and this is it's teachings we must follow, and we are contended with it and we don't have to ask why it's like that because we know for sure this is made to be for our own good.
As for Aysha RA the wife of our Prophet pbuh going to battles alone without any guardian or " mahram" if this is true then the answer for that is very simple she is the mother of all the muslims (as mentioned in the Quran) in the battle field, so the whole muslim army is her guardian.
ps. Jack: you are wrong when you said the Quran says that, it does not mention in the whole Quran that a woman must travel with guardian or "mahram", it's the Hadeeth which says that as mentioned above.
minerva
09-09-08, 02:24 AM
oh so it's a mahram....
i thought it was a guardian as in taking charge of the house!
Threadlike
09-09-08, 02:26 AM
So far as my knowledge extends, there is no mention in the Qura'n of verses that indicate women need guardians to travel. The rulings usually depend on hadiths of the prophet PBUH. The prophet PBUH is quoted as saying in both Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, " “A woman who believes in Allah and the Hereafter shall not travel for (a period of) a day and a night unless accompanied by a mahram of hers.” But before you jump to the ruling one has to take in mind two things:
1) The prophet PBUH also stated as mentioned in Sahih Bukhari, "If you live long, you will see the woman travel from Hirah (a city in Iraq) to circumambulate the Ka`bah fearing none but Allah.” and that tells us that...
2) The dangers of travel 1400+ years ago were much more terrible than the dangers of say, a ten hour flight today. If such dangers do not exist, therefore, and taking in mind the second hadith was said to a man some 1400 years ago we can clearly say that the day has come (thank God) where women can travel from one place to another fearing none but Allah.
Most opinions I'm aware of, however, imply the need of a host family or a host mahram companion waiting for the woman in whichever destination she may be at and that is purely to take care of her and show her around a country that is not her own. Of course in journes of Hajj or Umra, such a condition is not necessary and a woman may travel alone and stay with whichever group she's going with in the first place; very few people head to Hajj, for example, on their own and not in a group.
^^mariana yes it's a mahram for travelling ONLY. in the house the mother is the BIG BOSS :)
minerva
09-09-08, 02:29 AM
^^mariana yes it's a mahram for travelling ONLY. in the house the mother is the BIG BOSS :)
so he's not being the man of the house, but only a travelling companion. she can still clip him around the ear if she wants to!
Well Marianna this is NOT really a "Saudi" imposed issue.
It's a "Quran" imposed issue.
Care to show us where in the Quraan is that imposed jack?
Seems like you know.
so he's not being the man of the house, but only a travelling companion. she can still clip him around the ear if she wants to!
Damn right she can! :mmhmm:
marianna
09-09-08, 02:33 AM
Thanks all.
I just find it can be awkward for the sister in law to have someone much younger than herself to be the Mahram...maybe she could find another relative. Though I personally think any woman should be ok to travel alone we cannot make people see things in a way that we think is right and they think it is.
I like threadlike's explanation. For me if you look at the context of how things were in Arabia back then having a Mahram makes since esp. with warring tribes one must look after the well-being of the woman.
I especially love this because a woman should fear (and also love) God: "If you live long, you will see the woman travel from Hirah (a city in Iraq) to circumambulate the Ka`bah fearing none but Allah.”
^^she can even beat his bottom if he acts childish!!
you know it's more secure for a woman when she travels to have a male mahram with her even if he is 12 years old, this age is the normal age of puberty for Arabs.
marianna
09-09-08, 02:39 AM
Well, that is good and makes sense because she is the parent. Maybe out and about in public if he gets too big for his pants she can give him a good cuff on the ear.
Now what about sibling rivalry....have sisters given younger brothers (who were chosen to be the Mahram) a good cuff if they get too big for their pants??? :) I know I have given mine quite a few in his day. :D
Sallam,
Jack:
1st of all “Wali” = means a person who takes responsibility of another person, by taking care of them, and having to manage their finance, and assure the accommodation, food and the needs of the person. The “Wali” acts like a guardian and can make decision on the behalf of the other person, especially if they were under the age of puberty, but once they hit the age of puberty then the “Wali” will have to consult the person and then base the decision out of agreement of both sides.
2nd “Mahram” = means a person who accompanies the female family member to complete her duties such as travelling, shopping, Hajj/Ummrah.
The difference between “Maharam” and “Wali”, is that any male family member can be a “Maharam” even a brother in-law or a son in -law. But not every one of the male family member can be a “Wali”.
A replacement “WALI” can exist if there is a close and blood male member to the female member such as husbands, brothers, grandfathers and uncles from both sides the mother and father. IF it happens that this female member has no one of the mentioned previously then she can seek her 1st, 2nd and upto 3rd cousins, or grandchild if reached puberty. Again, if none of the above exist, then her mother or grandmothers or aunties from both sides the mother or father can be “Wali” if she is younger than the age of puberty, otherwise she can seek her own “Welaya” and be responsible of her own self.
But as for “Mahram” in case a male member is not in existence, then the female can seek a minimum of two female relatives or whom she trust and a “Maharam” of one of them to accompany her to fulfil her need, especially if it was for Hajj/Ummarh.
Jack, it is always good to have to speak about things and have confiednace about them when you are SURE and you have EVIDANCS to show and prove your points based on them. But its not good to talk about something with no solid ground to it, cause this will only make you look ugly in front of your audience and you wont get any cheering or claps to your “number”.
====
I my self, sometimes I take my brother who is under 7years to accompany me to do some shopping in town centre, and I must admit I feel more comfortable with him than if I am alone. For I feel that men around will respect the lady more if she is accompanied with male member despite the age, than having to walk around alone and having to feel the indirect attack from the men’s eyes on her. The funny bit, every one thinks that he is my son rather than my brother, so they grant me more respect thinking that I am a mother and married person rather than a single lady walking with her brother. [it feels good] :)
Just to add to my post above:
I have lost my father in a very young age, and my brother was very young to take the responsibility of being a “Wali”, but he was still in a position to take his role as a “Mahram”. Through all the years that we lived in before he hit the puberty, my “MOTHER” was our “Wali” and she is still the “Wali” or the active responsible person along side my brother who is suppose to act his role as a “Wali” technically. BUT STILL, nothing goes or comes or done without my Mother’s final decision. Although we had uncles who were in more position to take the role of “Wali” temporarily until my brother was grown up enough to take the ruoe, but their role was over ruled with my mother taking the ruoe from them, because she is capable to take the responsibility and manage our lives with no problem or obstacles, and that was accepted by the Islamic Court in Oman.
UmKhalid
09-09-08, 05:52 AM
The 'man of the house' this is something cultural.
Superbia
09-09-08, 07:18 AM
Stupidity. Saudis are either backwards, or backwards :yell:
FAITH86
09-09-08, 12:17 PM
^ So yeah, don't blame the woman is she needs a mahram so desperately if she's living is a place such as Saudi Arabia.
DarK PrincesS
09-09-08, 01:17 PM
Fyi,,,Bahrain is reallly close to saudi arabia :rolleyes: It takes us about 30 minutes to go there, soo..what's the point of taking a mahram :os!! Isn't a mahram for like hajj and all? Really, Saudis have this way of taking cultural stuff and twisting it into something religious, Cz I know and i have saudi friends, i remember one of them telling me that her little 14 year old brother actually wants to FORCE her to wear the niqab :rolleyes:! Why? Cz probably they told him he's "THE man"..Jeez
Jack Jack Jack - we wouldn't love our religion if it was that "oppressive" ;)
Threadlike expressed it best, and my Wali is my father, if my father passes away (La Sama7a Allah), then it would be my eldest brother who would be my Wali and the role of a Wali is to be my guardian - when someone proposes to me, they approach my Wali etc. Mahram, is just someone I can't marry and can travel with me freely but as I said, I believe that does not apply today (supported by Threadlike's post)
amo_l_oman
09-09-08, 05:08 PM
^^she can even beat his bottom if he acts childish!!
you know it's more secure for a woman when she travels to have a male mahram with her even if he is 12 years old, this age is the normal age of puberty for Arabs.
Yes but if someone jumps on my throat or tries to approach me, what can a 12 do even if he is Arab ?
Must be a mature person, that's what Sheikh Salah said some time ago
minerva
09-09-08, 05:27 PM
so if i were a single woman, and i convert to islam. where am i gonna get a mahram and a wali from?
so if i were a single woman, and i convert to islam. where am i gonna get a mahram and a wali from?
You already have that - don't have to convert to "get" them. Your mahrams is anyone you can't marry: Father, Uncle, Grandfathers, granduncles, sons, nephews, son in laws etc. Your Wali would be your husband since you are married. If you weren't married, it would be your father if he is still alive, if not, your brother. If not, your grandfather, if not, your paternal uncle...etc.
minerva
09-09-08, 05:51 PM
erm....so do i have to get my christian brother to come with me every time i want to travel?
what about women who go abroad to study? do they take a younger brother in the suitcase?
erm....so do i have to get my christian brother to come with me every time i want to travel?
what about women who go abroad to study? do they take a younger brother in the suitcase?
It's doesn't matter if he is a christian or a Jew, he is still your mahram.
Regarding your 2nd Q, did you read Threadlike's post?
A lot of members on this forums are Muslims girls studying abroad alone, and they don't have a relative, let alone a brother with them...should explain our belief.
minerva
09-09-08, 06:04 PM
It's doesn't matter if he is a christian or a Jew, he is still your mahram.
Regarding your 2nd Q, did you read Threadlike's post?
A lot of members on this forums are Muslims girls studying abroad alone, and they don't have a relative, let alone a brother with them...should explain our belief.
sorry i didn't read it, and i'll look at it.
re the first question...ys it matters if i'm a muslim and he's not, because a muslim might understand why i wanna drag him out with me, but a christian might not.
amo_l_oman
09-09-08, 06:07 PM
Wali for marriage is the sheikh if woman is a convert
re the first question...ys it matters if i'm a muslim and he's not, because a muslim might understand why i wanna drag him out with me, but a christian might not.
I am not arguing in that sense. I am saying a mahram is a mahram, no matter what is his religion; whether he understands the role of a mahram is a different matter all together. Plus, I am not a believer that a Muslim woman has to go out every where with a mahram. So even if he doesn't understand, well let her go out alone, provided it is not a really dangerous place. If it was, then I am sure your brother/father/husband/son/or whomever wouldn't want you to go alone and would accompany you without even asking them to do so.
Arabian Princess
13-09-08, 12:19 AM
For me, am just curious because this woman is Muslim and lives in Saudi and Bahrain and the sister in law simply wants someone older to be her guardian. Just not her son.
Marianna,
the answer to your question is threadlike's post and this thread:
http://englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57838
minerva
13-09-08, 12:25 AM
I am not arguing in that sense. I am saying a mahram is a mahram, no matter what is his religion; whether he understands the role of a mahram is a different matter all together. Plus, I am not a believer that a Muslim woman has to go out every where with a mahram. So even if he doesn't understand, well let her go out alone, provided it is not a really dangerous place. If it was, then I am sure your brother/father/husband/son/or whomever wouldn't want you to go alone and would accompany you without even asking them to do so.
dangerous place as in where? a red light district? a drug den? i wouldn't go to anywhere dangerous anyway. i often go walking out at night on my own, and i never take anybody with me.
The Muslima must have not read the Quran ...
I'd say read the Quran and find out. Infact we don't even need to go to hadith/sunna for this one but they will also show this is correct.
oh so u have read the quran ?so tell me what it says mr.smartass
dangerous place as in where? a red light district? a drug den? i wouldn't go to anywhere dangerous anyway. i often go walking out at night on my own, and i never take anybody with me.
I walk alone a lot, well because I live alone. However, there is an alley leading up to my apartment building and at night, there are many homeless natives who are high on cheap drugs and probably drunk who sleep in a park beside my place. As far as I am concerned that is a dangerous place to be walking through alone especially for a girl (with a scarf on). And if I had a choice, I would want my brother meeting me somewhere so we could walk down the alley together. Thank god, there is a safer yet longer route to take to my place.
It does not have to be a red light district or whatever. There are many dangerous places just in our neighborhoods :rolleyes:
marianna
13-09-08, 04:33 PM
For me, I don't mind walking alone. I have walked downtown Saint Louis....at night, traveled the Globe alone, visited remote villages alone, and travelled cross-country alone. Trust me when I say this NO ONE bothered me. Maybe because when I don't smile I tend to have this: "DON'T FUKC with me attitude" and I am left alone. Knock on wood....however being an overprotective mother of my only child I have taught my daughter the necessary skills and signs to watch for when alone. Just a reality in my society. Like it or not. There are positives and negatives to everything including independence and including have a mahram.
You already have that - don't have to convert to "get" them. Your mahrams is anyone you can't marry: Father, Uncle, Grandfathers, granduncles, sons, nephews, son in laws etc. Your Wali would be your husband since you are married. If you weren't married, it would be your father if he is still alive, if not, your brother. If not, your grandfather, if not, your paternal uncle...etc.
So, it isn't true that if a married Christian woman converts to Islam and her husband doesn't, she is automatically divorced?
I thought a Muslim woman not only couldn't marry a non-Muslim, but couldn't BE married to a non-Muslim.
For me, I don't mind walking alone. I have walked downtown Saint Louis....at night, traveled the Globe alone, visited remote villages alone, and travelled cross-country alone. Trust me when I say this NO ONE bothered me. Maybe because when I don't smile I tend to have this: "DON'T FUKC with me attitude" and I am left alone. Knock on wood....however being an overprotective mother of my only child I have taught my daughter the necessary skills and signs to watch for when alone. Just a reality in my society. Like it or not. There are positives and negatives to everything including independence and including have a mahram.
Marianna you were just lucky :)
You should know a lot can happen to a pretty girl like u.
Be safe.
minerva
14-09-08, 04:31 AM
Marianna you were just lucky :)
You should know a lot can happen to a pretty girl like u.
Be safe.
do you think a 12 yr old is really gonna protect a woman if some arse hole wants to attack her? the 12 yr old will be done with with just one punch....
do you think a 12 yr old is really gonna protect a woman if some arse hole wants to attack her? the 12 yr old will be done with with just one punch....
Firstly i was commenting on Mariana trip around the glob all alone.
Secondly 12 year old or not We ( Arab women ) try to avoid situations where an As$Hole Might attack us ( traveling alone, staying out late, etc etc).
FLORENTYNA
14-09-08, 09:50 AM
Lets be honest here a 12 yrs can not protect no one!! and the reason that woman take a 12 yrs as a guardian is because of the rules!! legal rules not as a person who gonna protect her!!
However the wisdom behind this ruling is surely to save her from the dangers that can be encountered in the journey but imagine if it was very strict that a woman must have a mahram otherwise she is not allowed under no any circumstances to travel..just imagine how bad it would have been...how much we would have suffered??? I mean dont blame non muslims for not understanding this ruling and thanks God we dont have such law in our country..
I was reading the book thousand Splendid yrs, i came to understand how women suffered because of this rule:no:
amo_l_oman
14-09-08, 06:54 PM
So, it isn't true that if a married Christian woman converts to Islam and her husband doesn't, she is automatically divorced?
I thought a Muslim woman not only couldn't marry a non-Muslim, but couldn't BE married to a non-Muslim.
She is not authomatically devorced
The husband is given a period of time similar to that of the idda [3-4 months] during which he must chose whether to embrace Islam or not
If he refuses then there is devorce
This happens according to Sunni scholars, for analogy with what happened to one of the daughters of the Prophet
I finally found out after Woody opened that controversial thread :D
Am not sure anyway my father is considered my mahram
How could he bring me to Hajj for example ?
She is not authomatically devorced
The husband is given a period of time similar to that of the idda [3-4 months] during which he must chose whether to embrace Islam or not
If he refuses then there is devorce
This happens according to Sunni scholars, for analogy with what happened to one of the daughters of the Prophet
I finally found out after Woody opened that controversial thread :D
Am not sure anyway my father is considered my mahram
How could he bring me to Hajj for example ?
He can't but he is still your mahram because you can't marry him, you can still walk in front of him without your headscarf wearing knee length dress. Just because a mahram can't fulfill all the duties that a mahram entails does not make him any less of a mahram.
She is not authomatically devorced
The husband is given a period of time similar to that of the idda [3-4 months] during which he must chose whether to embrace Islam or not
If he refuses then there is devorce
This happens according to Sunni scholars, for analogy with what happened to one of the daughters of the Prophet
I finally found out after Woody opened that controversial thread :D
Am not sure anyway my father is considered my mahram
How could he bring me to Hajj for example ?
Don't I always do that, Amo ?
:hyper:
I think its because 1400 years ago. a woman travelling in the desert alone with many horny camels roaming around is dangerous, but now women are more 'respected'. Quran said its ok as long as the responsible guy for the woman says 'yes'.I.e. husband/father. Not necessarly go out with her for shoppig, traveling, cheating on him.
Also, Saudi arabian people exaggarate it way too much. so everyone, hands down to you. The pussy is valued in Islam and the whole world. not welcomed in Saudi? gtfo of saudi, why staying in?
Islam repsects women better than men. Even though none admits its true. Especially mothers.
Allah made a prostitute goes to heaven just because she fed a dog.
Allah said "إن كيدهن عظيم" (not sure of the ayah, but it means they are powerful, dangerous creatures that you should be aware of).
Allah put some rules for women as two instead of men because women do not have simple stuff as men. Their mind is complex that mario didn't win its bowser.
marianna
16-09-08, 11:07 PM
Pucca thanks for the well wishes....again....luck is always on my side and I must look very mean when alone....I know how to take care of myself but if someone has a gun different story.
of course I don't intentionally put myself in dangerous situations......but if I am in an area by accident I just know that I do KNOW how to take care of myself.
For me....independence is as valuable as my life. I cannot explain it any other way.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.