The Veil: Woman vs. Men

[marianna]

I tend to get a lot of hits on this thread (http://marianna1968.blogspot.com/2007/11/islam-christianity-and-veil.html) I posted regarding Christianity and the Veil however the section I wish to highlight is this:

The veil has many critics and just as many supporters. It can be seen as either a liberation for the Muslim woman, (not being the object of sexual desire and basing her self-worth on looks) or as some might see it, as a repression of her spirit. I believe that it takes a strong woman to veil, especially these days within a Western country due to generalizations about Muslims. I see Muslimas as being in the forefront of their religion because when they practice hijab they are a visible symbol of their faith. Unlike some Muslim men I have known over the years, one cannot immediately recognize if they are Muslim unless they tell you. Unlike a woman....her faith is displayed for all to see...
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For the Muslimas out there....I would like to know (honest feelings here) how you feel about say traveling to a Western country and veiling yet the Muslim men tend to adopt the Western style and typically a Westerner will not realize that this man is Muslim unless he tells them so.

Thoughts?

[FAITH86]

Why would I change the way I dress whenever I travel to any western country?
As long as I'm totally convinced that the dress code I follow is the right one for me as a woman and then as a muslim, I can't see any reason why should follow what ppl in the place I'm traveling dress like blindly.

We all like to look neat and nice but we should consider what's appropriate and whats inappropriate to wear in our religion.

Off-topic: There're some verses in the bible talking about the veil in chapter 11. I can't recall it now, but I'd really appreciate it if you can share it with us here, Marianna.

[Jeff]

Why would I change the way I dress whenever I travel to any western country?
As long as I'm totally convinced that the dress code I follow is the right one for me as a woman and then as a muslim, I can't see any reason why should follow what ppl in the place I'm traveling dress like blindly.

We all like to look neat and nice but we should consider what's appropriate and whats inappropriate to wear in our religion.

Off-topic: There're some verses in the bible talking about the veil in chapter 11. I can't recall it now, but I'd really appreciate it if you can share it with us here, Marianna.

These are verses from the Apostle Paul recommending that women cover their heads when the are in church.

And this was the long tradition among Catholics and Orthodox. In fact, in my particular church, the great majority of women still cover their heads: including my wife! :p But we are a bit old fashioned in my church.

Here is the quotation from St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 11, verses 4 through 16.


4
4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head.
5
But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.
6
For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.
7
5 A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
8
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9
nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;
10
for this reason a woman should have a sign of authority 6 on her head, because of the angels.
11
7 Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.
12
For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God.
13
8 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?
14
Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,
15
whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?
16
But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.

It's a bit difficult to follow Paul's reasoning, but he seems to be saying that if women don't veil when they pray in church, they will be the center of attention rather than God.

But it's interesting to note that he says men should NOT cover in church.

And he ends by saying that his reasoning may not be valid for all, but in the end, it's best to pray as Christians have prayed customarily.

There is a Christian custom of veiling outside of church as well for reasons of modesty, but it's not directly in the Bible....

[marianna]

That's what I feel Faith...why would one change? Why would a man change?

Jeff explained it quite well. My grandmother does not veil but she does in church. Always has.

[Jeff]

Here is a link to some wonderful pictures and some interesting texts about Christian veiling. If the topic interests you, by all means follow the links and read the comments...

http://hallowedground.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/veiling-of-women/

[clouds]

mariana, I feel so sad and disgusted to see muslim men shaving their beards whether they live here in muslim countries or abroad and I even feel so much angry and more disgusted when I see muslim women not wearing the "hejab" or the veil!!!!!!

may Allah swt guide our muslim brothers and sisters to the right path of Islam.

[marianna]

Why did the author of the blog call the Arabian women Pagan?

Now don't get me wrong...I don't have anything against Muslim women not veiling....because from what I understand of members here and from what I read...veiling is a choice.

I just wonder about the marked difference between those women who do veil and the men who profess piousness yet there is no outward sign of their faith. Just trying to merge the two.

[Jeff]

Why did the author of the blog call the Arabian women Pagan?

That's not the author of the blog. That's the Church Father Tertullian who lived in what is now Algeria.

He wrote in the fourth century and that was before the time of Mohammed. The inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula would have been understood to be pagans. They were not Christian nor monotheists.

[marianna]

Ok, thanks for the clarification Jeff!

[FAITH86]

Here is a link to some wonderful pictures and some interesting texts about Christian veiling. If the topic interests you, by all means follow the links and read the comments...

http://hallowedground.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/veiling-of-women/

Thanks for sharing, Jeff! Well put in the previous post!

I have some more questions, will come back with them ;). But I don't want to ruin this thread! Might start a new thread about it.

[FAITH86]

That's what I feel Faith...why would one change? Why would a man change?

Jeff explained it quite well. My grandmother does not veil but she does in church. Always has.

And why does she veil only in church?
The same reason should be valid inside and outside the church, that's what I got from the verses in chapter 11.

[Miss G]

I just wonder about the marked difference between those women who do veil and the men who profess piousness yet there is no outward sign of their faith. Just trying to merge the two.

Just so that I can try to answer your question as best as I can, may you please tell me what you would consider an outward sign of faith for a muslim male?

[Superbia]

It may be annoying to some, but it doesn't really affect me. I have more important things to worry about :p

[Arabian Princess]

For the Muslimas out there....I would like to know (honest feelings here) how you feel about say traveling to a Western country and veiling yet the Muslim men tend to adopt the Western style and typically a Westerner will not realize that this man is Muslim unless he tells them so.

Thoughts?

I dont know why do some women find it difficult to veil in the west. I wear my viel everywhere and I am very comfortable with it. I never felt I was HUGLY discriminated because of it. Ofcourse there are small incidents here and there but I dont think they matter.

I dont envy men sometimes, because ofcourse they can do things I cant do with my viel for example swimming in a hotel's pool, however I dont think its ever worht leaving my viel for. I beleive we are getting rewarded for wearing it, something men cant get :)

[minerva]

Here is a link to some wonderful pictures and some interesting texts about Christian veiling. If the topic interests you, by all means follow the links and read the comments...

http://hallowedground.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/veiling-of-women/
my grandma used to wear a veil and she always had a spare one for me. but it was a dainty lace veil that allowed the hair to show through. i used to love wearing it because i always thought of it as some kind of ornament.

[marianna]

What I mean Miss G is that for Muslim women who veil they tend to dress modestly also....the Muslim men who I knew and only because they told me wore shorts and short sleeved shirts and I thought for men this had to be covered. My point to all of this it just seem harder on the Muslima in the West if she practices hijab because of this not being the norm here...the men tend to blend in more easily like in college etc....when I was in college the Muslim women I knew veiled and the men wore shorts etc....and I wouldn't know they were Muslim unless they told me. I went to a uni in a small town in the Midwest so the Muslimas tended to stand out more.

[Miss G]

What I mean Miss G is that for Muslim women who veil they tend to dress modestly also....the Muslim men who I knew and only because they told me wore shorts and short sleeved shirts and I thought for men this had to be covered. My point to all of this it just seem harder on the Muslima in the West if she practices hijab because of this not being the norm here...the men tend to blend in more easily like in college etc....when I was in college the Muslim women I knew veiled and the men wore shorts etc....and I wouldn't know they were Muslim unless they told me. I went to a uni in a small town in the Midwest so the Muslimas tended to stand out more.

Right ok. Well, all I can say to that really is that wearing the hijab is a religious obligation, & it's always associated with Islam for the obvious fact that it's an Islamic thing to do. For men, there arent really any religious obligations in Islam that would mean adorning something that isn't common outside Islam. However, with regards to shorts, men aren't meant to show any body parts between their belly button & their knees, but that's something ALOT of muslim men don't pay attention to.

[El Rey]

Marianna, not all muslim women veil neither all muslim men have long beards.

[marianna]

I know not all Muslim men wear beards. The point being to this thread is that since 9/11 it just seems to me that veiled women tend to be scrutizined more or at least it was that way when that event happened and it made me wonder about the dress for men and women when they are of that faith. That's all no hidding meaning behind my post.

[clouds]

^^mariana, whether before or after 9/11 Islam ORDERED women to wear veil and ORDERED men to wear beard. and whoever disobeys is a SINNER.

[minerva]

^^mariana, whether before or after 9/11 Islam ORDERED women to wear veil and ORDERED men to wear beard. and whoever disobeys is a SINNER.
men are ordered to have a beard???

[Miss G]

^^mariana, whether before or after 9/11 Islam ORDERED women to wear veil and ORDERED men to wear beard. and whoever disobeys is a SINNER.

No, they're not. Where the hell do you come up with this stuff, anyhow? Growing a beard is considered sunna, it's not a must.

[El Rey]

I know not all Muslim men wear beards. The point being to this thread is that since 9/11 it just seems to me that veiled women tend to be scrutizined more or at least it was that way when that event happened and it made me wonder about the dress for men and women when they are of that faith. That's all no hidding meaning behind my post.

Ah who questioned the hidden meaning in your post ? I know you're asking just to know. And my comment was about you compared muslim women and men twice:


I see Muslimas as being in the forefront of their religion because when they practice hijab they are a visible symbol of their faith. Unlike some Muslim men I have known over the years, one cannot immediately recognize if they are Muslim unless they tell you. Unlike a woman....her faith is displayed for all to see...



For the Muslimas out there....I would like to know (honest feelings here) how you feel about say traveling to a Western country and veiling yet the Muslim men tend to adopt the Western style and typically a Westerner will not realize that this man is Muslim unless he tells them so.


And as I said, as there are many muslim women who keep veiling even after 9/11 there are also many muslim men who keep their beards long. And yes they both may have troubles in the west because of this. So generalizing the muslim women veiling and muslim men acting and practising the west life is not fit I guess.

[clouds]

men are ordered to have a beard???

yes men are ordered to grow their beards by our Prophet peace be upon him in more than FIVE authentic hadeeths and Allah swt told us clearly in the Quran to follow the Ptophet's orders and avoid what he prohibited.

but some muslims like Miss G says it's only Sunna, so what!!!!!!

[Threadlike]

The label 'Muslim' is very easy to carry around and display.
For example, today we were in a governmental organisation here in Alexandria and it was the middle of the day. The place is full of people, all wanting to finish up their paperwork and an ENTIRE FLOOR of Muslim employees is praying the thuhr prayers as the people wait. This tells the world the message, 'We are Muslims'. To someone like myself it also tends to give the message, 'We are lazy'. The point being; whether you are a Muslim man or a Muslim woman, a dress remains what it is: a dress. It is not an indicator of who you are as a person...And it shouldn't be taken as so.

[marianna]

Interesting thought Threadlike.........I guess for me when I see a covered woman in the West I also take it as her being brave because you can SEE it but I get where you are coming from.

[Threadlike]

^On a side-note and while Islam stresses that the people who work well in their job are loved by God, the only person serving us was an extremely polite Christian woman.

[minerva]

^On a side-note and while Islam stresses that the people who work well in their job are loved by God, the only person serving us was an extremely polite Christian woman.
then she must be a muslim too!!! :D

[clouds]

^^Threadlike there are priorities in Islam and NOTHING is more important than prayer, but ofcourse I am against the fact that ALL the employees pray at the same time and leave people waiting!! they should take turn in praying as the Prophet peace be upon him did while they were at battle.

[Threadlike]

LOL minerva...Now that you mention it, CHRISTina sounds like quite the Muslim name :hyper:

Yes clouds prayer is very important. We are aware of that.
It is not like they're going to miss it. Or pray it after A'asr. It's not like they're not going to pray it in jama'a (group). It's simply that they sit down, finish their work until the day is done (sometime a LOOONG time before A'asr) and then gather and pray. The hypocrisy was simply too much for me to bear...They were also the same people which I saw insulting people (who come to seek their service) with their parents' names (such people are in the 50s or 60s)...So they have no problem doing that BUT they have to pray the moment they hear the athan. If that is how Islam should be, then I was following another religion for quite a long time of my life.

[marianna]

And why does she veil only in church?
The same reason should be valid inside and outside the church, that's what I got from the verses in chapter 11.


My grandmother covers her hair in church out of respect to the teachings of Catholic doctrine and doesn't believe in veiling outside of church because we no longer have to. She attends more than once a week and says her prayers every day.......she is pretty religious. When she became a widow in 1974 she never remarried, never dated...remained loyal to my grandfather even to this day at 88....the point being....I think women who are pious come in all shapes and sizes. I don't think Christian women view the veil any longer the way Muslims do but I know that Christian women used to cover their hair ages ago.....a practice that seems not to fit in today's Western world.

[poisonillusions]

Well it does sadden me when I see a Muslim women taken off her hijab to "fit" in. It also makes me sad when a Muslim man shaves his beard and so on. I wear Niqab *getting use to it* which is over the edge here in the U.S. I'm not wearing it now because I'm in Texas visiting my non-Muslim family. When I'm in Dearborn, I wear proudly and going to make it possibly all the time inshallah.

[minerva]

why do you have to go as far as the niqab? isn't a headscarf (hijab) enough? i see the niqab, worn in the west as a sign not of religion, but of unfriendliness.

[poisonillusions]

why do you have to go as far as the niqab? isn't a headscarf (hijab) enough? i see the niqab, worn in the west as a sign not of religion, but of unfriendliness.

"unfriendliness" How come? If the woman underneath is being unfriendly, it's because the people are her being asses to her. I love to wear Niqab. It's awesome and so is Hijab IMO. I've been "unfriendly" to a few people while wearing Niqab because of a few idiots. One those idiots thought I wanted to rob the mobile store. WTH? seriously I told him "Do I look like people from Detroit? Get a life dude". Another person said, "go back to Saudi" then I said, "Oh I would love to but I wanna stay here so I can taught you." I know many women who wear Niqab to be sweethearts who don't want to be bothered.

[minerva]

"unfriendliness" How come? If the woman underneath is being unfriendly, it's because the people are her being asses to her. I love to wear Niqab. It's awesome and so is Hijab IMO. I've been "unfriendly" to a few people while wearing Niqab because of a few idiots. One those idiots thought I wanted to rob the mobile store. WTH? seriously I told him "Do I look like people from Detroit? Get a life dude". Another person said, "go back to Saudi" then I said, "Oh I would love to but I wanna stay here so I can taught you." I know many women who wear Niqab to be sweethearts who don't want to be bothered.
because in the west women don't wear niqab. it's ugly and covering your face where nobody else covers it is aloofness. you don't quote one incident to describe the whole west. when i was shopping in london with my kids, and three niqabis walked by, they got scared....cos they looked like bandits.
the hijab is cool enough...that's the only requirement by your religion, as far as i think. when you speak to people in the west, they are used to seeing your mouth move and your face express itself. that's why covering your tools of expression is unfriendly and aloof.

[poisonillusions]

because in the west women don't wear niqab. it's ugly and covering your face where nobody else covers it is aloofness. you don't quote one incident to describe the whole west. when i was shopping in london with my kids, and three niqabis walked by, they got scared....cos they looked like bandits.
the hijab is cool enough...that's the only requirement by your religion, as far as i think. when you speak to people in the west, they are used to seeing your mouth move and your face express itself. that's why covering your tools of expression is unfriendly and aloof.

Your children got scared because you don't bother telling them that their are different people with different cultures and religions. The Niqab isn't ugly. Seeing skanky women walking around is ugly. I support any women who wear Niqab and Hijab 100%. Bandits? Give me a break. Stop being ignorant. I'm surprised they don't get scared when they see a woman dressed all skanky. I know I would be screaming because I'm seeing some bimbo showing all her nasty infested STD body.

[minerva]

Your children got scared because you don't bother telling them that their are different people with different cultures and religions. The Niqab isn't ugly. Seeing skanky women walking around is ugly. I support any women who wear Niqab and Hijab 100%. Bandits? Give me a break. Stop being ignorant. I'm surprised they don't get scared when they see a woman dressed all skanky. I know I would be screaming because I'm seeing some bimbo showing all her nasty infested STD body.
believe you me, when they see a skank, they laugh at her because they think skanks are plain dowdy, hilarious and uglified.

i think there's a divide between darth vader/batman and skanky ho' and there are lots and lots of smart alternatives in between, which most women use. ;)

and please, spare me the adjectives....i do teach my kids about other cultures. my kids have muslim friends themselves.
hijab and niqab are two different things.
if you are in the us with niqab, sorry, you are just seeking attention. i'll let other muslim girls talk about it now.

[poisonillusions]

I'm seeking attention. Okay, let me tell that to all my Yemeni women friends who wear Niqab that they are doing this all for attention. I'll let my cousins in Saudi know that when they come to the US they need to take off their Niqab because they want attention. I believe we Muslim women can wear Hijab or Niqab as we please. If you don't like it, oh well.

[Superbia]

because in the west women don't wear niqab. it's ugly and covering your face where nobody else covers it is aloofness. you don't quote one incident to describe the whole west. when i was shopping in london with my kids, and three niqabis walked by, they got scared....cos they looked like bandits.

Exactly! :bored:

Personally, it's just seeking attention in my opinion. Why wear something that Islam didn't ask you to? Hijab ok, but niqab? Why in the world? :yell:

[poisonillusions]

Exactly! :bored:

Personally, it's just seeking attention in my opinion. Why wear something that Islam didn't ask you to? Hijab ok, but niqab? Why in the world? :yell:

Scholars have been debating for many years if Niqab is Fard. Just let the woman who wear Niqab be. It's not anyones place to tell them what to wear. It's not like their out telling the women who expose themselves to cover up and that their seeking attention.

[Superbia]

Scholars have been debating for many years if Niqab is Fard. Just let the woman who wear Niqab be. It's not anyones place to tell them what to wear.

Excuse me? What are you on about? Please quote the scholar who claims that - 'Cause he really seems ignorant to me. Oh well, it's only natural for converts to over do everything. Pfft.

Oh, & just to add.. If niqab is a must, as you claim.. Then can you please elaborate further on why is it forbidden to cover one's face during performing hajj? :rolleyes:


It's not like their out telling the women who expose themselves to cover up and that their seeking attention.

I'm sorry, but if you choose to be part of the minority, then I believe that you're seeking attention and you want people to be aware of your existence. Then again, that's just my opinion.

[Sarz]

Posion, what does the niqab mean to you? (as a person wearing it)

[poisonillusions]

Excuse me? What are you on about? Please quote the scholar who claims that - 'Cause he really seems ignorant to me. Oh well, it's only natural for converts to over do everything. Pfft.

Oh, & just to add.. If niqab is a must, as you claim.. Then can you please elaborate further on why is it forbidden to cover one's face during performing hajj? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry if I converted to my fathers religion after the fact that I found out he was Muslim when I was a teenager. Would it make you feel better if I said, "I was born Muslim". I never said Niqab was a must. I read on Islamqa about the debate if Niqab is fard or not.

[Superbia]

I'm sorry if I converted to my fathers religion after the fact that I found out he was Muslim when I was a teenager. Would it make you feel better if I said, "I was born Muslim". I never said Niqab was a must. I read on Islamqa about the debate if Niqab is fard or not.

Umm, alright. I was assuming that you said it was fard (an obligation). Sorry for misunderstanding then. But still, that doesn't change the fact that usually converts are a lot stricter than the ones who are born Muslims. It's not a bad thing, but then again.. Too much of anything is not good for you.

[poisonillusions]

Posion, what does the niqab mean to you? (as a person wearing it)

When I was wearing Hijab, I felt protected. When I wear Niqab, I feel protected as well. Yes, it may bring more attention to Non-Muslims around me but it also keeps the Muslim men who are suppose to lower their gaze trying to peep at my face and "checking" me out. Theres a lot of Muslim around me and some men just can't lower their gaze.

[poisonillusions]

Umm, alright. I was assuming that you said it was fard. Sorry for misunderstanding then. But still, that doesn't change the fact that usually converts are a lot stricter than the ones who are born Muslims. It's not a bad thing, but then again.. Too much of anything is not good for you.

Here check this out and here's the site too.

BASING ON CULTURE VS. QURAN AND SUNNAH. ...Most Muslim men, even in America, would be pleased if their wives veil, but some state that a veil draws too much attention, causing men to look upon her more than normal. However, one must realize that when men 'look', they have nothing of her to see! Regardless, this issue must stick to understanding and implementing Qur'an and Sunnah, and not making excuses based on the current culture. Muslims are ordered not to imitate the dress of any non-Muslim culture, so, surely, we cannot make the choice to wear Niqab based on the pressures of modern day society; instead, we choose, insha'Allah, to fear Allah, swt, and not mankind!

When in a state of ihram, the muslimah cannot wear niqab. However, according to several scholars, such as Sheikh ibn Baz, even when in a state of ihram, "she should lower her headcovering or outer cloak over her face when she is in the presence of non-mahram men." So, it is to say that she should not cover her face around the other women during ihram, but that she should cover it if a non-mahram man approaches. He bases this on the hadith below, narrated by 'Aisha .

*

In Fathul Bari, chapter Hajj, a tradition reported on the authority of Aisha (RA) says:
o

"A woman in a state of Ihram (during Hajj and Umrah) should stretch her head - cloth over to her face to hide it."

http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

[Nella]

^ seriously? we should 'try' to cover our faces even in the state of ihram? but you get to walk side by side with non-mahram men, you get to be pushed against them sometimes.
it doesn't make sense that non mahram men shouldn't be able to look at your face, but can bump into you all they want. non mahram men are allowed to look at your face, they're not allowed to 'stare'. there is a difference.

i don't believe that Niqab is obligatory in Islam, even if some scholars believe it is. and i don't ever see myself covering my face, but i still respect women who choose to.

Minerva makes a lot of sense in regard to seeking attention. i'm not calling you an attention seeker poisonillusions, but when the society you're living in is not used to people covering their faces, then it will draw people's attention to you, which is the opposite of what Niqab is supposed to do.

i know women who cover their faces in Oman, but don't when they Travel, because it doesn't make sense wearing something that will draw attention to you when you're wearing it for the opposite reason.

[marianna]

In the USA a woman who completely covers her face will receive more attention than if she simply veils (covers her hair)....I have seen this first hand because I have been exposed to Muslimas where I live and have watched the observations of others who are non-Muslim...I am a people watcher..........can't help it. I have seen people here in St. Louis becoming more used to seeing women veil but as far as covering the face the non-Muslims will automatically put up this wall...you can see it in their facial expression.

[El Rey]

Then they will get used to it. Everything starts strange then will be normal by the time. Personally speaking am not with Niqab but Hijab, since some girls in my country put Niqab to cover their nasty actions and since our prophet :PBUH: made it clear that when a muslim girl reaches her puberty she has to cover everything in her body except her hands and face.

However, I don't see any wrong if the girl wants to put Niqab believing it's better for her and it can protect her. I even respect her for this since she endures the harsh comments and confrontations in the west. Furthermore, I don't think anyone has the right to call them attention seekers cos no one knows what they're thinking and besides they can wear what the heck they want when they don't harm anyone and the rules allow it.

[wudjab]

I think the Niqab should be banned in the West.

[Jeff]

Oh, yes? I am against fascism, whatever its motivations.

I don't know why in the world everyone is piling on to poisonillusions, psychologizing her and telling her what her inner motives are. She thinks niqab is a good idea, she likes it and she wears it. She doesn't tell anyone else to wear it.

So: I am on her side.

I am also on the side of those who don't wear hijab because they honestly don't see why they should.

Let people follow their consciences on this matter; what's wrong with that?

[Threadlike]

Personally I believe niqab is a clear-cut ignoring a VERY clear hadith that states that women past the age of mensturation should cover the whole body except for the face and the hands. This is a Sahih hadith...If you think you're more knowledgable of your or of others' body than the prophet PBUH who was chosen to deliver the word of God then you can well go start your own dress code.

But. Is it a choice? Course it is. Nobody can tell you what or what not to wear...It is a very personal thing. But one CAN tell you what the Islamic stance over it is and the choice is yours whether you would like to follow that or not.

[wudjab]

Jeff.

Just as PI has her right to believe that she should wear the niqab, I have my right to believe it should be banned.

Or do you think some rights are worth more than others ?

So if I disagree with PI, that equates fascism ?

Give me a break.

[marianna]

Curious though why would women and those who follow total facial covering go against what Mohammad revealed?

All I know is when I see a veiled woman in the street I know who she is religion wise...now personality....that I don't know but a part of me would be curious to just say hello.

[Jeff]

Jeff.

Just as PI has her right to believe that she should wear the niqab, I have my right to believe it should be banned.

Or do you think some rights are worth more than others ?

So if I disagree with PI, that equates fascism ?

Give me a break.

Well, thanks for the reasonable and kind reply. I'll withdraw the fascism remark. It was just a response to the feeling that everyone was picking on PI. I have the same response when people pick on Oblivious for being non-hijabi.

My point was that those two positions of allowing and banning clothes are not equivalent. You believe in freedom of speech, I think?

Well, that's where a similarity comes in.

You don't ban things because you don't like them. You steer away from banning things that involve expression of ideas about how to live or what to think.

I don't want the government telling me that I can't wear a crucifix if I choose. I don't want the government telling the Amish that they have to wear buttons.

We go way out of our way to accomodate the Amish who insist on using the roads with horse drawn vehicles and slowing everyone else down. Why? Because we actually favor religious expressions, we think they are good for society.

I think this is true even if you don't like the religion in question.

Now, my guess is that you are really concerned about security issues. And my response would be that if we really have an overwhelming rash of crimes involving niqab wearers, that's the time to start thinking of that.

You can favor banning niqab. But that's not the reverse of being in favor of wearing it yourself.

Anymore than someone wanting to silence Mark Steyn for being "Islamophobic" is the equivalent of Mark Steyn expressing his opinion.

[Threadlike]

Curious though why would women and those who follow total facial covering go against what Mohammad revealed?

All I know is when I see a veiled woman in the street I know who she is religion wise...now personality....that I don't know but a part of me would be curious to just say hello.
The prohet PBUH said in Sahih Hadith: For women past menstruation, cover all your body EXCEPT for the face and the hands. It doesn't need a genius to conclude that keeping the hand and face uncovered is just as important as keeping the rest of the body covered.

[poisonillusions]

The prohet PBUH said in Sahih Hadith: For women past menstruation, cover all your body EXCEPT for the face and the hands. It doesn't need a genius to conclude that keeping the hand and face uncovered is just as important as keeping the rest of the body covered.

Well what about the hadith that talks about the Prophets wives covering their faces infront of Non-Mahrams? I can't find it but do you know what I'm talking about?

[clouds]

my personal advise to Poisonillusions is to take off your Niqab and stick to hejab only while you are living in the west, do not misunderstand me I personally think niqab is not obligatory to muslim women, but if they chose to wear it is fine by me BUT not in a society where wearing it can cause you lots of harassment's and troubles.

Islam is very "flexible" religion we need not to over-stretch it's rules and put burden upon ourselves.

think it over poisonillousions, and I really admire you for your courage to wear the niqab in a place like the US and bear all the consequences where haterate for muslims after 9/11 is blooming all over the place.

[wudjab]

Can you tell us more about this 'haterate for muslims after 9/11 that is blooming all over the place" ?

I assume you're talking about the US, so some more details would be welcome..

Thanks Clouds.

[Miss G]

Well what about the hadith that talks about the Prophets wives covering their faces infront of Non-Mahrams? I can't find it but do you know what I'm talking about?

Everytime a muslim posts something about being very anti-niqab & how the Prophet :PBUH: said for the face & hands to show, I think of exactly what you said, but never really had a way of putting forth a strong arguement. So yeah, what about that? :think: Would like to ask Threadlike specifically, knowing that he does have a wide knowledge of the religion, & yet thinks of wearing the niqab as an obvious dismissal of what the Prophet :PBUH: said.

Note: I'm not attacking or being defensive or anything. I've just always been really curious as to what Threadlike, & those who thought like him, made of fact that the Prophet :PBUH:'s wives chose to wear the niqab.

[clouds]

^^ come on wudjab you know what I am talking about even a dumb person knows this fact!!!

Muslims who look like muslims whether with neqab or hejab or a long beard are "hated" and looked on as terrorists and blood thirsty creatures!!!

but wearing niqab makes things worse for the muslim women living there, that's why I suggested to poisonillousions to take it off.

ps. I am not talking about ALL Americans who think like this, but of course there are open minded understanding Americans like Mr Jeff who think otherwise, but the majority do not and that is very sad (that includes you woody!!!).

[marianna]

^^^As an observer am curious also Miss G but only because I get confused over what is the requirement in Islam.

Sigh.........my point in opening this thread was not to create hostile feelings but to make an observation of what I "see" here in my own country regarding the visable symbol of Islam regarding the hijab.

[poisonillusions]

my personal advise to Poisonillusions is to take off your Niqab and stick to hejab only while you are living in the west, do not misunderstand me I personally think niqab is not obligatory to muslim women, but if they chose to wear it is fine by me BUT not in a society where wearing it can cause you lots of harassment's and troubles.

Islam is very "flexible" religion we need not to over-stretch it's rules and put burden upon ourselves.

think it over poisonillousions, and I really admire you for your courage to wear the niqab in a place like the US and bear all the consequences where haterate for muslims after 9/11 is blooming all over the place.

I'm a very brave woman. I fear Allah subhana wa tala only. I've been told a few rude comments in Hijab and Niqab. All I do is laugh and tell them how I feel about them. I won't take off my Hijab or Niqab for anyone. I thank you for your concern but theres other things out in this world that pose more of a threat to society like human trafficking,gangs,drugs,etc... than a woman in Niqab.

[marianna]

^^^^On that I will agree 2,000% PI.

[wudjab]

Clouds.

We who live in the real world, would love to see some evidence of this supposed backlash against Islam that muslims are supposedly facing in America after 9/11.

So please, put up or shut up.

[Jeff]

Well what about the hadith that talks about the Prophets wives covering their faces infront of Non-Mahrams? I can't find it but do you know what I'm talking about?

I support you right to wear the niqab.

I support your courage in doing so.

Do I know the answer to whether niqab is mandatory or non-mandatory for Muslims? No, I don't. And it's not my religion, so it doesn't matter to me.

But here is a page of citations to ahadith that scholars who argue in favor of the niqab use:

http://www.teachislam.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1768&Itemid=325

http://members.tripod.com/ibnfarooq/niqaab.htm#hadith

I remember the thing you were talking about and I cited it in another thread...but it seems to have been removed. Why, I'm not sure.

[clouds]

^^poisonillusions that's not only my personal opinion, but so many scholars gave this fatwa after 9/11, come on you are a woman and if you move around ALONE without mahram with your niqab surely this will cause you so much haressmant by some people who hate muslims, I am worried about your safety, if you were a man having a long beard I will never tell you to shave off your beard just to avoid harassement but for Allah's sake you are a WOMAN.

think it over seriously and no hard feelings.

[Jeff]

^^ come on wudjab you know what I am talking about even a dumb person knows this fact!!!

Muslims who look like muslims whether with neqab or hejab or a long beard are "hated" and looked on as terrorists and blood thirsty creatures!!!

but wearing niqab makes things worse for the muslim women living there, that's why I suggested to poisonillousions to take it off.

ps. I am not talking about ALL Americans who think like this, but of course there are open minded understanding Americans like Mr Jeff who think otherwise, but the majority do not and that is very sad (that includes you woody!!!).

Thanks for the compliment, clouds.

I think there are probably fewer people here who feel that way than you might think.

I don't mean that hijabis don't sometimes feel self conscious. But it's so very common in many parts of American now that no one even notices. Practically every time I go out, I see women in Islamic attire. No one stares. Everyone just talks to them as normal people.

I don't know about Britain, but I think that's the situation here. Niqab will get you stares. Hijab won't.

And most people in general have a perfectly favorable impression of Muslims. Most of them blame 9/11 on extremists who twist Islam rather than on Islam itself.

My family and friends range across the board in their religious ideas from atheists to Catholics. But only a very, very few have a seriously negative view of Islam. And I don't know a single one that hates Muslims.

[marianna]

I agree jeff........these days you don't see the rude stares regarding veiled women...like when I was at my daughter's college the other day.......the 2 veiled women there were treated same as everyone else.

It's just the face cover that makes allot of Westerners take a step back because as someone pointed out earlier Westerners are raised to expect seeing a person's face when they talk to them.........same as in other countries where it is seen as the norm for women to veil. People are just raised in certain ways and when something "different" comes along it makes people mentally take a step back.

[poisonillusions]

^^poisonillusions that's not only my personal opinion, but so many scholars gave this fatwa after 9/11, come on you are a woman and if you move around ALONE without mahram with your niqab surely this will cause you so much haressmant by some people who hate muslims, I am worried about your safety, if you were a man having a long beard I will never tell you to shave off your beard just to avoid harassement but for Allah's sake you are a WOMAN.

think it over seriously and no hard feelings.

Cloud, I have been around alone with my Niqab on. I live in Dearborn, Michighan in a big Muslim Community. There is also Non-Muslims here too. I've been in Detriot city in my Niqab too. Alhamduluillaah nothing has happend to me and your going to make me spill my secret but anyway. My HUSBAND and me agreed when and where not to wear it. If I'm working in a Non-Muslim place, I don't wear it. If I'm in Texas with my Non-Muslim family, I don't wear it. If I got back to Egypt, I wear Niqab. Trust me, my family can be idiots sometimes but if someone ever hurts me because of my religion, they will step in. So it's all good my friend.

[marianna]

^^^Well, that sounds like a wonderful compromise for you and your husband, congratulations and I do wish you the very very best PI.

[clouds]

Clouds.

We who live in the real world, would love to see some evidence of this supposed backlash against Islam that muslims are supposedly facing in America after 9/11.

So please, put up or shut up.


for what we hear and see in tv and news papers I think the US is like a JUNGLE the powerful survives and the weak gets dumped!!!

and especially after 9/11 the US becomes to me personally as the LAST place I would go to visit.

Harressament starts from at home when applying for a visit visa to the US where you have to fill a 20 page questionare as if you are doing your "A" level exam in maths!!!

then all the security checks in the airports and especially in Us airport upon arrival where they treat you like a "criminal" especially if you have muslim "looks" that's happening and you can not denying it woody!!

so I would spare myself all this trouble to go to a place where I am NOT welcomed by it's government and most of it's people.

I would rather visit the eskimo land I might enjoy myself better.

[clouds]

Cloud, I have been around alone with my Niqab on. I live in Dearborn, Michighan in a big Muslim Community. There is also Non-Muslims here too. I've been in Detriot city in my Niqab too. Alhamduluillaah nothing has happend to me and your going to make me spill my secret but anyway. My HUSBAND and me agreed when and where not to wear it. If I'm working in a Non-Muslim place, I don't wear it. If I'm in Texas with my Non-Muslim family, I don't wear it. If I got back to Egypt, I wear Niqab. Trust me, my family can be idiots sometimes but if someone ever hurts me because of my religion, they will step in. So it's all good my friend.


wow, that's a big relief for me so you choose when and where to wear it, and that was my very point.

you are a very sensible muslim lady, may Allah swt protects you.

[Jeff]

for what we hear and see in tv and news papers I think the US is like a JUNGLE the powerful survives and the weak gets dumped!!!

and especially after 9/11 the US becomes to me personally as the LAST place I would go to visit.

Harressament starts from at home when applying for a visit visa to the US where you have to fill a 20 page questionare as if you are doing your "A" level exam in maths!!!

then all the security checks in the airports and especially in Us airport upon arrival where they treat you like a "criminal" especially if you have muslim "looks" that's happening and you can not denying it woody!!

so I would spare myself all this trouble to go to a place where I am NOT welcomed by it's government and most of it's people.

I would rather visit the eskimo land I might enjoy myself better.


Well, it's a shame you wouldn't want to visit! If you ever change your mind, I hope you'll look me up. I'd be honored to take you around.

I'd just say that Muslims often complain of media distortion and you should bear in mind that it works in many ways. The media like to sensationalize things and make them colorful so they can get viewers and customers.

I'd ask people like Pygmalion or Amjad or Charm or others who have actually spent time here what their impression was. I'd just say again, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you think.

Anyway for my part: Welcome! If anyone disrespects you, we will fight with together. :)

[Jeff]

I agree jeff........these days you don't see the rude stares regarding veiled women...like when I was at my daughter's college the other day.......the 2 veiled women there were treated same as everyone else.

It's just the face cover that makes allot of Westerners take a step back because as someone pointed out earlier Westerners are raised to expect seeing a person's face when they talk to them.........same as in other countries where it is seen as the norm for women to veil. People are just raised in certain ways and when something "different" comes along it makes people mentally take a step back.

That's true!

But seeing Mennoite women in their caps makes people take a step back too. Or Amish people in their horse carts on the highway! :p

America is a refuge for people with "strange" ideas about how to live and that's one of the things I love about it. And it began in part as a place for people with "weird" religious ideas to go. I love that too.

[marianna]

I saw some Mennoites the other day at the Saint Louis Grayhound bus terminal. My daughter never seen them before and asked questions and I explained to her who they were and why they were dressed that way. I didn't say anything derogatory....sometimes attitude all starts in the home and I teach my child to be open-minded about different customs.

Where I grew up the Amish were quite visible in the countryside.......they would wave to us as we passed their buggies with our car. Very quaint and ideal.

[wudjab]

Ah, so you've based your assumption that Muslims are being harrassed in the US because of the requirements of US visa policy ?

Hmm.. I wonder when this policy came into effect and why ?

And do you realize it affects all of us ?

[poisonillusions]

wow, that's a big relief for me so you choose when and where to wear it, and that was my very point.

you are a very sensible muslim lady, may Allah swt protects you.

Shukran kteer brother. I knew we were going to get to the root of the issue sooner or later. I thank you for your concern.

[clouds]

Well, it's a shame you wouldn't want to visit! If you ever change your mind, I hope you'll look me up. I'd be honored to take you around.

I'd just say that Muslims often complain of media distortion and you should bear in mind that it works in many ways. The media like to sensationalize things and make them colorful so they can get viewers and customers.

I'd ask people like Pygmalion or Amjad or Charm or others who have actually spent time here what their impression was. I'd just say again, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you think.

Anyway for my part: Welcome! If anyone disrespects you, we will fight with together. :)


you really embaressed me with your kindnesss and sweat words, are you sure Jeff your roots are Americans or you have some Arab blood mixed in them?:)

seriously Jeff if I ever think to visit the US you will be on top of my list to visit first and this is a promise.

I've been telling you since long time that your behaviour and manners would exceed and overcome any muslim member in ES this includes me of course.

you are indeed a good friend.

[marianna]

Actually there are alot of nice Americans over here...all shades. :D

[Jeff]

you really embaressed me with your kindnesss and sweat words, are you sure Jeff your roots are Americans or you have some Arab blood mixed in them?:)

seriously Jeff if I ever think to visit the US you will be on top of my list to visit first and this is a promise.

I've been telling you since long time that your behaviour and manners would exceed and overcome any muslim member in ES this includes me of course.

you are indeed a good friend.

Well, you are very kind. But that's all nonsense about my manners. I can be sharp as a tack sometimes and give as good as I get! :p

I think you'd have a great time with Jihad and Marianna too, even if you don't always agree. I bet you'd even find a side of jack that would make you feel welcome if you came in person! :) And you could even squire poisonillusions from place to place and see how things are for a girl that inclines to your views on religion.

[Threadlike]

Everytime a muslim posts something about being very anti-niqab & how the Prophet :PBUH: said for the face & hands to show, I think of exactly what you said, but never really had a way of putting forth a strong arguement. So yeah, what about that? :think: Would like to ask Threadlike specifically, knowing that he does have a wide knowledge of the religion, & yet thinks of wearing the niqab as an obvious dismissal of what the Prophet :PBUH: said.

Note: I'm not attacking or being defensive or anything. I've just always been really curious as to what Threadlike, & those who thought like him, made of fact that the Prophet :PBUH:'s wives chose to wear the niqab.
I personally am not aware of what the prophets' wives WORE all the time but I'm pretty sure that the prophet PBUH never commanded any of them to cover up their faces. The hadith relating to the exposition of hands and face is there in both Sahih Bukhari and Sunnan Abu Dawood, both of which are quite reliable sources of hadith although with a small minority of weak hadiths so far as I know. What's even more interesting is that the hadith was narrated by Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, the wife of the prophet PBUH.

There are, however, certain hadiths that people who say niqab is a fard would usually use. If you see something like number 515 in Book 54 of Sahih Bukhari you get:

Narrated Sa'd bin Abu Waqqas: Once Umar asked leave to see Allah's Apostle, in whose company there were some Qurayshi women, who were talking to him and asking him for more financial support, raising their voices. When Umar asked permission to enter, the women quickly screened themselves (fa badirna al-hijab). When Allah's Apostle admitted Umar, Allah's Apostle was smiling. Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! May Allah keep you happy always!". Allah's Apostle said, "I am astonished at these women here with me. As soon as they heard your voice, they quickly screened themselves". Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You have more right to be feared by them". Then he addressed (the women) saying, "O enemies of yourselves! Do you fear me and not Allah's Apostle?" They replied, "Yes, for you are a fearful and fierce man as compared to Allah's Apostle". On that Allah's Apostle said (to Umar), "By Him in Whose hands my life is, when satan sees you taking a path, he takes a path other than yours"

It clearly indicates that the women were sitting around the prophet PBUH with their FACES SHOWING. Yet, certain arguments for niqab assume it's supposed to promote niqab. Another hadith in Sahih Bukhari, Book 74, number 274 is this one, again used to promote niqab:

Al-Fadl bin Abbas rode behind the Prophet as his companion rider on the back portion of his she-camel on the Day of Nahr (on the Farewell Hajj), and Al-Fadl was a handsome man. The Prophet stopped to give people verdicts. In the meantime, a beautiful woman from the tribe of Khath'am came, asking the verdict of Allah's Apostle. Al-Fadl started looking at her as her beauty attracted him. The Prophet looked back while Al-Fadl was looking at her; so the Prophet held out his hand backwards and caught the chin of Al-Fadl and turned his face to the other side in order that he should not gaze at her. She said, "O Allah's Apostle! The obligation of performing hajj enjoined by Allah on His worshipers has become due (compulsory) on my father, who is an old man and who cannot sit firmly on the riding animal. Will it be sufficient that I perform hajj on his behalf?". He said, "Yes".
You can obviously see that the aim of turning Al Fadl's head away was for him to 'lower his gaze' as commanded in the Holy Qura'n in various points, mainly in Surat al Nur, verse 30. It makes no sense to link it to niqab or face-covering in any way. If the prophet wanted to say niqab was a necessity or even something 'favored', he would have said, 'It is better to cover your face' or anything of the sort.

However, I stand by my previous statement as well: You are free to wear what you want to wear the same way you are free of whether to pray or not to pray, believe or not to believe; it's all choice.

[Jeff]

I personally am not aware of what the prophets' wives WORE all the time but I'm pretty sure that the prophet PBUH never commanded any of them to cover up their faces. The hadith relating to the exposition of hands and face is there in both Sahih Bukhari and Sunnan Abu Dawood, both of which are quite reliable sources of hadith although with a small minority of weak hadiths so far as I know. What's even more interesting is that the hadith was narrated by Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, the wife of the prophet PBUH.

There are, however, certain hadiths that people who say niqab is a fard would usually use. If you see something like number 515 in Book 54 of Sahih Bukhari you get:


It clearly indicates that the women were sitting around the prophet PBUH with their FACES SHOWING. Yet, certain arguments for niqab assume it's supposed to promote niqab. Another hadith in Sahih Bukhari, Book 74, number 274 is this one, again used to promote niqab:

You can obviously see that the aim of turning Al Fadl's head away was for him to 'lower his gaze' as commanded in the Holy Qura'n in various points, mainly in Surat al Nur, verse 30. It makes no sense to link it to niqab or face-covering in any way. If the prophet wanted to say niqab was a necessity or even something 'favored', he would have said, 'It is better to cover your face' or anything of the sort.

However, I stand by my previous statement as well: You are free to wear what you want to wear the same way you are free of whether to pray or not to pray, believe or not to believe; it's all choice.

I can't rep you on this unfortunately. I'm not qualified to be a judge in the matter, but I can follow the reasoning and it seems pretty persuasive to me.

Thanks for bothering to do the analysis...it's a pleasure to read your thoughts! :)