View Full Version : Red/Yellow dog cool ... Black dog = DEVIL!
Apology over offensive puppy police advert after Muslim complaints (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2229719/Apology-over-'offensive'-puppy-police-advert-after-Muslim-complaints.html)
Book 004, Number 1032:
Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ***, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.
And now sniffer dogs will wear bootees ...
Sniffer dogs to wear Muslim bootees (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4276489.ece)
Where Muslims object, officers will be obliged to use sniffer dogs only in exceptional cases. Where dogs are used, they will have to wear bootees with rubber soles. “We are trying to ensure that police forces are aware of sensitivities that people can have with the dogs to make sure they are not going against any religious or cultural element within people’s homes. It is being addressed and forces are working towards doing it,” Acpo said.
Problems faced by the use of sniffer dogs were highlighted last week when Tayside police were forced to apologise for a crime prevention poster featuring a german shepherd puppy, in response to a complaint by a Muslim councillor.
My question is ... what is the difference from a red/yellow dog and a black dog?
With exception of the obvious ... color!
UmKhalid
06-07-08, 06:02 PM
The tafseers I found of the hadeeth (The black dog is a devil) are:
1- That the black dogs are more vicious than the other dogs, more dangerous. And so, it was a 'tashbeeh' (I think in English it's metaphor), that the black dog's danger on the human's body is like the devil's danger on the human's faith.
2- That the devils can change their appearance and come as black dogs. This is why we have other hadeeths telling us to say "I seek refuge to God from the devil" if we see a black dog, if it is a devil, then it will not be able to harm us as the devils flee when they hear the name of God.
minerva
06-07-08, 06:02 PM
i think all dog loving people should sue for racism.
and maybe make a million black dog march through london.
the saddest thing is that it's happenning in the UK. the non muslim community is not too happy. i only hope that the educated muslims speak up because really, this dog situation is putting them in general to ridicule.
UmKhalid
06-07-08, 06:06 PM
i think all dog loving people should sue for racism.
... Let the human-loving people be able to sue those who unjustly attack other countries first.
minerva
06-07-08, 06:09 PM
... Let the human-loving people be able to sue those who unjustly attack other countries first.
that was a joke. :rolleyes:
living in the uk is becoming frustrating. a lot of my friends over there want to go live away from the uk.
umk would you object to a fluffy dog police advert or to a dog sniffing your house if police suspect that you have explosives/drugs inside it?
The tafseers I found of the hadeeth (The black dog is a devil) are:
1- That the black dogs are more vicious than the other dogs, more dangerous. And so, it was a 'tashbeeh' (I think in English it's metaphor), that the black dog's danger on the human's body is like the devil's danger on the human's faith.
2- That the devils can change their appearance and come as black dogs. This is why we have other hadeeths telling us to say "I seek refuge to God from the devil" if we see a black dog, if it is a devil, then it will not be able to harm us as the devils flee when they hear the name of God.What did they use to come to the conclusion that a "black" dog is more vicious than any other colored dog.
I still don't get it!
It's the same about cats as well, right? About them being a devil and that you should be afraid if you see one.
I don't really believe it, definatly gonna get me a black kitty for a pet in the future.
For some reason this thread reminded me of those dogs in the 1970s movie (The Omen) *shudders*
UmKhalid
06-07-08, 06:25 PM
Poor things your friends, is this because of us Muslims? Or are your friends just negative women who like to gain sympathy while complaining in womens' gatherings?
Seriously minerva, people all over the world say they've had enough and want to move away from their countries for whatever reasons, your friends didn't say anything new or interesting to the point that would make you use it as an argument in a thread. If the police came to their houses and took away their dogs, or a new rule that prevented people from walking their dogs was out, maybe then would your friends' testimonials be useful.
Well if I saw a fluffy dog police advert, I'd laugh my head off. But if it was something serious and the house needed to be searched, no problem, since there are necessities that make the haram halal.
minerva
06-07-08, 06:26 PM
reminds me of Professor Trelawny reading potter's leaves and shouting 'it's THE GRIM!!!'
minerva
06-07-08, 06:30 PM
Poor things your friends, is this because of us Muslims? Or are your friends just negative women who like to gain sympathy while complaining in womens' gatherings?
Seriously minerva, people all over the world say they've had enough and want to move away from their countries for whatever reasons, your friends didn't say anything new or interesting to the point that would make you use it as an argument in a thread. If the police came to their houses and took away their dogs, or a new rule that prevented people from walking their dogs was out, maybe then would your friends' testimonials be useful.
Well if I saw a fluffy dog police advert, I'd laugh my head off. But if it was something serious and the house needed to be searched, no problem, since there are necessities that make the haram halal.
it's getting too cramped and too pc. you can't do anything because you can offend your neighbour. i wasn't talking about muslims (in fact i didn't mention them wanting to leave uk because of the muslims) but because of the p.c attitude everybody has to take, you cannot do anything because someone is going to get offended.
dunno where you got all that from.
UmKhalid
06-07-08, 06:33 PM
What did they use to come to the conclusion that a "black" dog is more vicious than any other colored dog.
I still don't get it!
If it does not enter your head then take the other tafseer. I believe even in Christianity it is believed that devils can take the shape or (or I think get into) animals.
UmKhalid
06-07-08, 06:34 PM
^ I got it from this:
and maybe make a million black dog march through london.
the saddest thing is that it's happenning in the UK. the non muslim community is not too happy. i only hope that the educated muslims speak up because really, this dog situation is putting them in general to ridicule.
minerva
06-07-08, 06:34 PM
If it does not enter your head then take the other tafseer. I believe even in Christianity it is believed that devils can take the shape or (or I think get into) animals.
UmK in Christianity devils can enter and possess humans as well. so what do we do?
minerva
06-07-08, 06:35 PM
^ I got it from this:
yeps but i was referring to people leaving the uk because there is too much political correctness. and that was in a separate post.
minerva
06-07-08, 06:42 PM
Well if I saw a fluffy dog police advert, I'd laugh my head off. But if it was something serious and the house needed to be searched, no problem, since there are necessities that make the haram halal.
see, those who protested do not think like you. fluffy dog police advert was offensive, and sniffer dogs were found offensive too. they didn't think like you.
what i find more offensive is that british police apologised for the fluffy dog advert. i would have made it into a huge billboard.
am reading the comments after the first article...read no 25.
When reading a thread like this, is always impresses me how much scholarly devotion some people put into understanding the real essence of religion...such commitment to the field of theological research and inter-communal understanding :hmm:
When reading a thread like this, is always impresses me how much scholarly devotion some people put into understanding the real essence of religion...such commitment to the field of theological research and inter-communal understanding :hmm::hmm: You mean like compared to my religion?
minerva
06-07-08, 07:24 PM
When reading a thread like this, is always impresses me how much scholarly devotion some people put into understanding the real essence of religion...such commitment to the field of theological research and inter-communal understanding :hmm:
so you feel offended by fluffy dog as well?
funnily enough the muslim shop owners refused to put the fluffy dog poster on the shop windows but they are very open and understanding when it comes to making money out of selling cigarettes and alcohol.
Am happy for you jack. You have a big interest in Islam. Keep reading and learning about it. God bless you :)
Good literature choice jack. Explains a lot :).
Threadlike
07-07-08, 12:50 AM
I did check my schedule again.
There was no entry of: 'Googling the words 'yellow red dogs muslims ridiculous' and, I don't know, putting it somewhere on the net' in it.
However, I'm sure other Muslims (some of them even mentioned in the article) and people who bother are very very interested though.
jack, how many dogs do you have and what color?
Jack if i were to open this thread i would talk about how pathetic the UK Police ended up like slaves to the immigrants, no seriously; and even Apologized! you see, you can take the artcle whichever direction you like.
DarK PrincesS
07-07-08, 11:20 AM
This is hilarious!
Devil ? xD
I just wanna know, what's under the ***? I've tried alot of things and nothing fits....!
minerva
07-07-08, 03:16 PM
Jack if i were to open this thread i would talk about how pathetic the UK Police ended up like slaves to the immigrants, no seriously; and even Apologized! you see, you can take the artcle whichever direction you like.
yeps that's the saddest bit. that the uk police apologised, instead of putting a huge St.George flag on top of their building and shouted 'this is Britian' (just like This is Sparta). If you don't like our dogs, you know where you can go.
Dogs are all over the place in the western world, I think there is no house without a dog and some dogs will be rich after the death of his owner.
minerva
07-07-08, 03:31 PM
^yeps if someone wants to move to another country, and they think dogs are jinns or bad or haram, they shouldn't move to a dog loving country, because they might have a few problems with dogs literally being everywhere.
Or they can help that society to get rid of dogs and use them for the right purpose.
minerva
07-07-08, 03:38 PM
Or they can help that society to get rid of dogs and use them for the right purpose.
dogs are good. if you think dogs are bad, stay away. i've always had dogs all my life and they were like part of the family.
anyway, the public in general (muslims included) are outraged at this story, so it's up to them to decide how things are going to move forward.
I think you can have this dog as part of the family, what do you say?
http://www.dog-names.org.uk/dog-images/pekingese.jpg
minerva
07-07-08, 04:03 PM
I think you can have this dog as part of the family, what do you say?
http://www.dog-names.org.uk/dog-images/pekingese.jpg
no i never had terriers. i always had boxers who could tell if a person was an a$$hole from a mile away and they were excellent protection.
The dog needs home and a new family.
It will be rude to kick him in the street.
FLORENTYNA
07-07-08, 05:01 PM
black dog = evil?
this is new to me
although we have dog at my dad's house since i was young but those dogs stayed outsite/cagee only.. i wouldnt trust to live with animal inside the house.... but i think u can just clean the place or take shower b4 prayer if u get direct contact with dog...
minerva
07-07-08, 07:46 PM
black dog = evil?
this is new to me
although we have dog at my dad's house since i was young but those dogs stayed outsite/cagee only.. i wouldnt trust to live with animal inside the house.... but i think u can just clean the place or take shower b4 prayer if u get direct contact with dog...
yes florentyna.....most muslims think like you.
the problem is that in the uk, you get a couple of 'idiots' who will say 'Eating Chips is anti-muslim because the prophet never ate chips'. now everybody knows this is not true but there will be some people who will believe them. there will be even bigger idiots who will apologise for putting a chips advert in a shop window.
that's the uk for you now. too politically correct. too rubbish. there's nothing recongisable in england anymore.
jack, how many dogs do you have and what color?2 and they were salt and pepper colored.
Looking at a nice white puppy now which we may get today. It should have a white heart ... right Tea?
There is always the Korean approach...maybe you should find a Korean forum to insult their culture for kicks too :rolleyes:
There is always the Korean approach...maybe you should find a Korean forum to insult their culture for kicks too :rolleyes:What culture are you speaking of?
Who said the "black" dog is the devil :rolleyes:
hint: it wasn't a korean
Yes, what culture are you referring to Mimo ?
And are you sure this is cultural or religions ?
It gets confusing you know, some prohibitions are religious, the more quaint one suddenly become 'cultural'.
Have you guys watched the movie 666: The Omen?
I don't think such things are in Islam only. ;)
Braiki my buddy.
Key word is MOVIE.
Have you watched the this movie ?
http://www.impawards.com/2007/posters/aliens_vs_predator_requiem_ver5.jpg
are you telling me Christianity/Catholicism never related black dogs to evil/Satan?
Be careful before you answer ;)
To the best of my knowledge, no.
minerva
10-07-08, 07:50 PM
i don't think there's a mention of a black dog being the evil one in the gospels...maybe someone might provide a quote or something
Its not in the Bible, I expected it to be something in Christian/catholic tradition after seeing it in the omen, since it had alot of things to do with Christianity. Having the anti-christ born of a black dog.
Maybe Jeff can clear this up.
On the other hand, black dogs being the devil were not mention in the Quran either. BUT it was mentioned in the hadeeth.
My problem with this thread is just that I don't see the point (unless you are an atheist or against religion in general) in poking fun at odd things in other people's religions.
So far as I can see, there are odd or difficult to understand elements in all the religions. But they seem less odd when compared to the vast oddity of a material universe with no meaning made by nobody.
you came on time Jeff!
Is there anything similar in catholic tradition? Black Dogs being the sign of the devil or something?
Satanists use them as a sign of the devil!
minerva
10-07-08, 11:40 PM
you came on time Jeff!
Is there anything similar in catholic tradition? Black Dogs being the sign of the devil or something?
Satanists use them as a sign of the devil!
satanists use the goat. never heard of the big black dog lol.
Its not in the Bible, I expected it to be something in Christian/catholic tradition after seeing it in the omen, since it had alot of things to do with Christianity. Having the anti-christ born of a black dog.
Maybe Jeff can clear this up.
On the other hand, black dogs being the devil were not mention in the Quran either. BUT it was mentioned in the hadeeth.
I haven't heard anything about black dogs and Catholicism.
There are lots of ideas about devils and how they might appear that were common in earlier times, but I don't think they were taught authoritatively. So I think we are free to believe pretty much anything about how often devils appear and in what forms, etc.
The only thing I would mention is that it is authoritatively taught that devils possess human beings. And we have a famous story from the Gospels in which Jesus casts out a group of demons from a man and sends them into swine, which then precipitate themselves over a cliff.
So: hard to argue that animals can't be possessed in some circumstances, too.
We have a healthy fear of excessive flirting with superstition these days and stories like this make us uncomfortable. And we sometimes go to the opposite extreme of refusing to grant credence to devils at all. That won't wash as far as I can see.
But I guess we can just wait and see: if we encounter something for which there is no other realistic explanation than a demonic one--whether human beings or black dogs are involved--that can be the time to worry about it.
Thanx a lot Jeff
So this thought is explicitly for Islam.
One less common thing we got :p
Here's a story I read once from Pope St. Gregory the Great, in his famous Dialogues. He was a brilliant mind--one of the Doctors of the Church--and a great leader in a dark age. He died in 606 AD.
But it just shows how different the mentality of the age was from ours to read a passage like this:
Upon a certain day, one of the Nuns of the same monastery, going into the garden, saw a lettice that liked her, and forgetting to bless it before with the sign of the cross, greedily did she eat it: whereupon she was suddenly possessed with the devil, fell down to the ground, and was pitifully tormented. Word in all haste was carried to Equitius, desiring him quickly to visit the afflicted woman, and to help her with his prayers: who so soon as he came into the garden, the devil that was entered began by her tongue, as it were, to excuse himself, saying: "What have I done? What have I done? |18 I was sitting there upon the lettice, and she came and did eat me." But the man of God [Gregory means means St. Benedict] in great zeal commanded him to depart, and not to tarry any longer in the servant of almighty God, who straightways went out, not presuming any more to touch her.
http://www.ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/gregory_01_dialogues_book1.htm#C4
We don't much think of devils sitting on lettuces nowadays, it tends to make us giggle or s******.
But better to believe in devils perching on lettuces than to entirely forget their existence.
Thanx a lot Jeff
So this thought is explicitly for Islam.
One less common thing we got :p
I don't know, there might have been some connection that I hadn't heard about.
Certainly there was a notion that black animals and others might be devils that was prevalent once. That's the origin the idea of the bad luck in having a black cat cross your path.
And witches and others who consorted with the devil were often thought to keep animal familiars who were sometimes demons or possessed by them. They tended to favor black ones since black was thought to be the color of, you guessed it: Darkness! :)
But I don't think there is any authoritative teaching on it.
All the black animals, dogs or otherwise, that I have known have been sweetie pies. Oh, except for my black cat Chappie when I was a kid. She was vicious! :yes:
marianna
11-07-08, 12:00 AM
A coworker of mine had a mixed dog who was Black lab and Newfoundland. He was a gentle giant. Not all black dogs are the same....I grew up with dogs all my life since I was in diapers and never had an issue of violence with them.
It depends on how they are raised.
I have a black cat Luna and she loves her mama and my daughter so very much. Had her for 6 years. I simply don't see the connection between temperment and color. Irregardless of what a religion says I know what I see with my own eyes and years of having pets.
minerva
11-07-08, 12:03 AM
jeff, the point of this thread was not to make fun of somebody else's religion. but the fact that in the uk some muslim shop keepers didn't want to put up a police advert on their shopwindows because it had a fluffy doggy, and some others object to their houses being checked by sniffer dogs unless of course the dogs wear booties.
most other muslims found this outrageous.
more outrageous was that the british police apologised for using a squad dog (a fluffy one used for kids' talks) in their own posters...
marianna
11-07-08, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't apologize for using a dog...that is what police use in the states for bomb sniffing, drugs and otherwise even finding missing persons, escaped convicts the list of their usefulness in the realm of crime fighting is endless. Crap man dogs are used in natural disaster rescues. Come on!!!!!!!!!!!!
minerva
11-07-08, 12:06 AM
I wouldn't apologize for using a dog...that is what police use in the states for bomb sniffing, drugs and otherwise even finding missing persons, escaped convicts the list of their usefulness in the realm of crime fighting is endless. Crap man dogs are used in natural disaster rescues. Come on!!!!!!!!!!!!
that's the whole point marianna.
marianna
11-07-08, 12:08 AM
All I know for myself is if my daughter went missing and a dog could be used...use it....if I was trapped under rubble or in a fire and a dog could be use...use it....if I lived in a place where I could have a dog and he/she would protect me from burglars....I would use it.
minerva
11-07-08, 12:09 AM
All I know for myself is if my daughter went missing and a dog could be used...use it....if I was trapped under rubble or in a fire and a dog could be use...use it....if I lived in a place where I could have a dog and he/she would protect me from burglars....I would use it.
yeah but some complained because they said it was 'haram'.
jeff, the point of this thread was not to make fun of somebody else's religion. but the fact that in the uk some muslim shop keepers didn't want to put up a police advert on their shopwindows because it had a fluffy doggy, and some others object to their houses being checked by sniffer dogs unless of course the dogs wear booties.
most other muslims found this outrageous.
more outrageous was that the british police apologised for using a squad dog (a fluffy one used for kids' talks) in their own posters...
Well, okay, maybe.
But the original post ended with this:
My question is ... what is the difference from a red/yellow dog and a black dog?
With exception of the obvious ... color!
Maybe the point isn't to poke fun at such an idea in Islam. But the threads end up taking such turns of course.
I'd just love to see a thread once in while from a few of the members who start such threads about something they LIKE or ADMIRE in Islam, just to vary the tone a bit. I bet for a thousand bucks they could find SOMETHING! Why not do it just for a lark? :p
marianna
11-07-08, 12:12 AM
I have said in many responses what I loved about Islam right now I am responding to what I believe is wrong about the treatment or perception of animals.
Well, all I know is God blessed us with all the creatures on this planet....even the bugs and I cannot see a dog as haram. Just me.....I see them as intelligent creatures who have lived alongside humankind for centuries. Dogs DO feel a wide range of emotions...for example....when I came home from school my dog would wag his tail and jump for my attention follow me around as happy as a lark and sleep next to me curled up when I was tired and if I was upset he would remain by my side...same as my cats. I see animals as innocent creatures who have been mislabeled as evil. Animals have instincts and are in no way shape or form on the same intellect as humans however-------just because they are not doesn't mean they should not be respected because after all, all creatures great and small belong to God and are of His creation.
I have said in many responses what I loved about Islam right now I am responding to what I believe is wrong about the treatment or perception of animals.
Sure, you are one of the ones who try to be balanced and sensitive in your responses....
minerva
11-07-08, 12:18 AM
Well, okay, maybe.
But the original post ended with this:
My question is ... what is the difference from a red/yellow dog and a black dog?
With exception of the obvious ... color!
Maybe the point isn't to poke fun at such an idea in Islam. But the threads end up taking such turns of course.
I'd just love to see a thread once in while from a few of the members who start such threads about something they LIKE or ADMIRE in Islam, just to vary the tone a bit. I bet for a thousand bucks they could find SOMETHING! Why not do it just for a lark? :p
dunno, i tried it once and it got sabotaged by a righteous 'brother' ;)
the doggy thing is a hot topic at the moment, anyway it was the last couple of weeks in the uk. that's why it came up. because after accepting and accomodating guests from other countries, the last thing you expect them to do is to impose their own whims on your country's laws.
marianna
11-07-08, 12:18 AM
Muchas gracias! :D
For me I have seen first hand the usefulness of dogs in canine units and with the military police. German Shepards are infamous for their intelligence....also black labs are used for a variety of jobs even helping the handicap (i.e. the blind, those in wheel chairs, the elderly)......so color should really not be an issue nor should the animal.
Maybe because I am one of the older members here and have a wide variety of experiences but dogs do touch my heart. My sister for example, does animal rescue of dogs coming from puppy mills and she takes them into her home....works with them so that they are adoptable and not put to sleep and she works with all colors of the rainbow. Maybe why I had to respond so strongly.
dunno, i tried it once and it got sabotaged by a righteous 'brother' ;)
the doggy thing is a hot topic at the moment, anyway it was the last couple of weeks in the uk. that's why it came up. because after accepting and accomodating guests from other countries, the last thing you expect them to do is to impose their own whims on your country's laws.
Well, I see that.
But I think the problem comes more from us than from them.
We have this system which has developed in which we try to use the courts and overregulate people and businesses to try to make sure no one is offended or gets their feelings hurt, no one is excluded, etc.
Some Muslims simply get into the same system that others use.
And people who go overboard with multiculturalism bend too far over backwards to anticipate problems.
If we had a sensible system in which people who got their feeling hurt were told to grow up and buzz off, then such things wouldn't happen.
But I also think that people should be able to participate in shaping the societies they live in. Religious people are part of the discussion and if they are Muslims and they are citizens, there is no reason why they shouldn't try to get societies to change in ways that they consider healthy.
Those who disgree can always push in the other direction.
minerva
11-07-08, 12:48 AM
it was only a few muslims. many other muslims were left with their mouths open at their stance. but the british police, afraid of lawsuits and jobloss, apologised,. because this is the world we are living in now. bending over backwards even if things go against common sense.
Britan is pretty much screwed.
Britan is pretty much screwed.
I agree with that :yes:
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