Ok..I may catch some flak on this thread....I don't know. We were discussing in the lunch room how illegals come into this country and get benefits (i.e. medical) say at border towns. I have read where hospitals have actually SHUT DOWN because these illegals simply do not have the funds to pay for their services and there is just so much the US govt. can do as far as helping out.

So, WHO is to blame?:

1. The illegal?
2. The hospital?
3. The Mexican government?
4. The American government
5. The U.S. taxpayer?

In addition, what about in Oman (or other countries where members are from) when you have illegals and there are monetary and moral issues regarding them coming in.

What happens and what kind of similar situations do you have regarding this topic?

hahaah tell me about it....

i'll post later cos i'm in a hurry now..

If they are illegal they should be sent home. That is what is done in Oman.

I am against capitalist and communist.
I don’t mind any type of government which treat people equal. I mean rich person can go to 5 stars Hospital and poor person get treatment in shared room.

I don't like that treatment either. I was on welfare for awhile but was still paying taxes at the same time. But what makes me upset is that when these hospitals shut down the jobs of the doctors, nurses, orderlies, custodians...all the people it takes to run a hospital are lost. Or undue hardship is created on these people because they have to find another job and may have to move from that area in order to do so.

So a good deed of charity causes these people to lose their jobs thus creating a vicious cycle where these Americans are on unemployment getting welfare etc. etc....horrid.

hahaah tell me about it....

i'll post later cos i'm in a hurry now..
I was saying the same thing.


Who's to blame...

The host government who is not doing enough to deter illegal immigration.

The governments who run the countries and 'let' people escape from their borders pretty easily.

The illegal immigrant who has no intention of working to make his life better but only intends on having other people work and pay pay pay more taxes to fund his better lifestyle.


I often wonder.. why does a country end up in a political and financial disaster?

Because of the people? Because of the leaders in power? Because of the general attitude of the citizens?

So... if these people don;t fix their country's problem, but instead run away to other countries.. what is happening?

Are the problems in their countries being solved?

And what are they importing to the new country if not more of that old mentality?

When we see illegal immigrants not working and living off what ever they can get their hands on.. what REALLY has changed for them except the opportunity to get their hands on more and better things?

I seriously think, as illegal immigrants run away from their countries, they are only spreading the "I am a coward and will not WORK hard to achieve a better standard of living for my family and myself".

For me, those who don't give back to society reminds me of a plague or disease. I know that sounds harsh but when illegals come in and take away from my own people that is what it reminds me of.

For me, those who don't give back to society reminds me of a plague or disease. I know that sounds harsh but when illegals come in and take away from my own people that is what it reminds me of.
well.. very much so, their social relation is a parasitic one, no?

Like fleas on a dog. They take from the dog and give it nothing back.

Sweden model is mid-way between socialism and capitalism, i.e. a mixed economy
Swedish state is among the most active in the scope of government services provided.
Healthcare in Sweden is developed. Sweden ranks in the top five countries with respect to low infant mortality. It also ranks high in life expectancy and in safe drinking water. World-class hospitals in Sweden include Lund University, Karolinska University Hospital, Sahlgrenska University Hospital, Linköping University Hospital and Uppsala University Hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Welfare_state

Yes, I heard about that. One of the most well developed nations in the world. I wonder though what their rate of immigration is and # of illegals.

Sweden hosts around 40 000 Iraqi refugees

http://www.alsumaria.tv/en/Iraq-News/1-18333-.html

I view refugees a little bit differently than illegals. Refugees are a special status. Yet at the same time wonder what impact that many people has upon a society...on the health care, jobs, etc.

Sweden model is mid-way between socialism and capitalism, i.e. a mixed economy
Swedish state is among the most active in the scope of government services provided.
Healthcare in Sweden is developed. Sweden ranks in the top five countries with respect to low infant mortality. It also ranks high in life expectancy and in safe drinking water. World-class hospitals in Sweden include Lund University, Karolinska University Hospital, Sahlgrenska University Hospital, Linköping University Hospital and Uppsala University Hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Welfare_state
hahaha

check out just how much trouble the immigrants cause in Sweden. :rolleyes:

Lawlessness costs the people money too you know.

But what makes me upset is that when these hospitals shut down the jobs of the doctors, nurses, orderlies, custodians...all the people it takes to run a hospital are lost. Or undue hardship is created on these people because they have to find another job and may have to move from that area in order to do so.

So a good deed of charity causes these people to lose their jobs thus creating a vicious cycle where these Americans are on unemployment getting welfare etc. etc....horrid.

While I don't deny that illegal aliens place a burden on many aspects of the economy, I think it's rather unfair to simply generalize without looking at more facts regarding the issue.

Regarding healthcare:
If a hospital has to shut down, it's rarely a result from an influx of undocumented residents who lack the means to pay for their healthcare. Gross mismanagement on the part of the hospital administration would be first, and most obvious, culprit if a hospital were to shut down. When it comes to providing high cost healthcare (we're talking long-term treatment, rehabilitation, organ transplants) most hospitals and doctors generally approach it with the same approach. If a person can pay for their treatment, they will receive the healthcare needed and required. If a woman comes to the hospital and it is discovered that she will die in six months unless she receives a heart transplant, she will either have to be privately insured extensively enough to cover such a costly procedure, or will have to pay the cost personally. There are millions of uninsured citizens as well as undocumented workers who lack the means to pay for such costly procedures. These are the people who will either be denied the service, or simply told time after time that they are on a waiting list for the organ. Doctors and hospitals look at whether the cost of the operation can be paid for as well as the aftercare. It's not surprising that a vast majority of individuals who do receive proper treatment and organ transplants are those who are well insured and financially well off. If a doctor does choose to approve the surgery, despite the fact that a person is not insured (or undocumented), and absorb the charges, then that is when a hospital would be hit with the costs. But it's becoming increasingly popular amongst hospitals and healthcare providers to require upfront payment prior to any treatment - regardless of a persons income level, insurance policy, or legal residence.

When it comes to emergency healthcare, then obviously the situation and factors at play change slightly. But under the Medicare Modernization Act, the federal government allotted $25 million over four years for the care of undocumented immigrants who enter hospitals through emergency rooms across the country. The money is divided among states, but additional money is available to the six states with the highest illegal immigrant populations.

You might say "Oh but Cosme, that's $25 million of taxpayer money that is going to these illegal, undocumented workers! The horror!". But have no fear my friend. It's actually good that taxpayer money is being used in this way!

Depending on the circumstances, illegal immigrants can both cost and contribute to the economy. Taxes are a good way to understand how this is true.

Some illegal immigrants have been busy scrambling lately like U.S.-born Americans, trying to file their taxes on time. This is a small percentage of the without-papers-crowd in the United States. But some do file in the hope of creating a paper trail to show they are willing to pay their share.

That is the immigrant hope for an amnesty. It is fruitless, as no such thing is in the works. A bigger undervalued amount they contribute is through false Social Security numbers.

People who are upset that illegal immigrants can easily buy fake Social Security numbers have a reasonable argument to fear identity theft, confusion with valid numbers. But realize this as well: The government does not care if the money is coming from a fake number or a valid Social Security number. The government gets its paycheck deduction either way.

By some recent government estimates; about $7 billion a year in Social Security taxes is gathered this way.

Illegal immigrants were responsible for 10 percent of the government’s surplus in 2004. That is quite a tidy sum. And because they are not legally authorized to be a part of the workforce, the immigrants will not collect any benefits later, not that they are, or should be complaining.

The Social Security Administration tried to get a handle on the situation by alerting employers if their employees had numbers that didn’t coordinate with government records. The effort caused people to switch jobs, or to be fired by understandably nervous employers.

The notices did not, however, affect the amount of money the government collected. That number keeps rising, along with the number of illegal people.

Other federal efforts to curb hiring of people not authorized to work increased the amount the immigrants paid to the government. The crackdowns encouraged employers to require Social Security cards on all workers, increasing the market for fake numbers.

The Social Security Administration estimates that about three-quarters of illegal workers pay taxes that contribute to the overall solvency of Social Security and Medicare.

The agency estimates that for 2005, the last year for which figures are available, about $9 billion in taxes was paid on about $75 billion in wages from people who filed W2 forms with incorrect or mismatched data, which would include illegal immigrants who drew paychecks under fake names and Social Security numbers.

Spokesman Mark Hinkle says Social Security does not know how much of the $9 billion can be attributed to illegal immigrants. The number is certainly not 100 percent, but a significant portion probably comes from taxes paid by illegal immigrants.

Nine billion dollars sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but it is only about 1.5 percent of the total $593 billion paid into Social Security in 2005.

The impact on Social Security is significant, though, because most of that money is never claimed by the people who pay it but instead helps cover retirement checks to legal workers.

Federal law prohibits paying Social Security to illegal immigrants, but the administration factors in both legal and illegal immigration when projecting the trust fund's long-term solvency.

This is especially important as the 78 million-member baby boom generation begins to leave the work force and draw Social Security checks.

"Overall, any type of immigration is a net positive to Social Security. The more people working and paying into the system, the better," Hinkle said. "It does help the system remain solvent."

The Social Security Administration drew from census and Immigration and Customs Enforcement data in 2007 to project the effects of higher and lower immigration patterns.

If net immigration is high at 1.3 million people a year, the SSA's combined trust fund would be exhausted in 2043. But the fund runs out four years earlier if annual net immigration amounts to about half that — 472,500 legal immigrants and 250,000 illegal immigrants.

The Internal Revenue Service doesn't have an estimate of how many illegal immigrants pay income tax.

But one indicator is the 9 million W-2 forms with mismatched names and Social Security numbers it received in 2004. The IRS said the W-2 forms with invalid Social Security numbers reported about $53 billion in wages and about three-fourths of that, $40 billion in wages, had taxes withheld.

The IRS also has been issuing Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers, or ITINs, for 12 years to foreigners without a Social Security number. It's believed that many workers who seek the ITINs are in the country illegally, and the IRS reported that there were 2.5 million tax returns filed with an ITIN in 2004.

In 2006, then IRS Commission Mark Everson told Congress that "many illegal aliens, utilizing ITINs, have been reporting tax liability to the tune of almost $50 billion from 1996 to 2003."

An IRS spokesman said more recent figures aren't available.

The Social Security and Medicare taxes from mismatched W2s for the same period was $41.4 billion, Hinkle said.

That adds up to roughly $90 billion in federal taxes during they eight-year period.

The IRS defends the ITIN system, despite criticism that some illegal immigrants have used it to open bank accounts, get mortgages and establish a record of residency and taxpaying they hope might someday lead to legal status.

"The ITIN program is bringing taxpayers into the system," Everson told Congress.

Middle Tennessee State’s Ford, who has studied taxes and immigration, says a majority of economists agree that illegal immigrants are a net benefit for the U.S. economy.

He said the tax contributions from illegal immigrants, including sales taxes, property taxes and excise taxes (such as the gas tax), are significant.

He calculates that illegal immigrants contributed $428 billion dollars to the nation's $13.6 trillion gross domestic product in 2006. That number assumes illegal immigrants are 30 percent less productive than other workers.

"If anything we need more immigrants coming into the country, not less, especially with the baby boomers retiring," he said.

hahaha

check out just how much trouble the immigrants cause in Sweden. :rolleyes:

Lawlessness costs the people money too you know.
in sweden, in france, in italy.....
and in Malta.

they come here by the boatloads, weekly we get an average of 40. some of them are pregnant women just about to give birth (so their baby is born here, and they get automatic preference). they are kept in special camps, which have beds, food, water, showers, doctors, teachers, internet connection and they are given a weekly allowance.
they fashion knives out of chicken bones, they let the milk go stale so they can throw it in the face of the soldier who gives it to them. they pee on the locks, so when a soldier goes to open that lock, his hands touch the wee and God knows what's in them.
when a worker retaliates, they play up the race card.
fair?

i also would like to add that i welcome refugees, the real ones, the ones who come here and respect my country and culture, with open arms. those who learn my language and are polite to everybody, those who don't cause trouble. those who have heart wrenching stories behind them and those who have escaped genocide.

Cosme I understand to a degree with what you are saying but the downward spiral of the economy and with American citizens scrambling to make ends meet do we really need more people coming in and taxing our resources?

If immigrants want to contribute why don't they do it legally instead of causing issues at the border? Why hide?

In addition, where is Mexico's responsibility in all of this? A great influx of our illegals do come south of the border.

Hospitals should care for everyone. That's what they are there for.

But most hospitals in the US are private, not run by the government.

Illegal immigrants? Give them green cards, let them work, and tax them.

We are filthy rich, beyond the wildest dreams of men throughout history and beyond the wildest dreams even of most people in the world today.

I can't agree with pleas of poverty. Let them come!

If they come then with green cards but also I think we have to make sure the resources that we do have environmental, economical, health wise etc...are NOT taken advantage of. Laws of physics. Too much of anything will create chaos or havoc.

Hospitals should care for everyone. That's what they are there for.

But most hospitals in the US are private, not run by the government.

Illegal immigrants? Give them green cards, let them work, and tax them.

We are filthy rich, beyond the wildest dreams of men throughout history and beyond the wildest dreams even of most people in the world today.

I can't agree with pleas of poverty. Let them come!

Are you serious or being sarcastic? since Jeff hasn't put ^^^ or :p then serious?

Hospitals should care for everyone. That's what they are there for.

But most hospitals in the US are private, not run by the government.

Illegal immigrants? Give them green cards, let them work, and tax them.

We are filthy rich, beyond the wildest dreams of men throughout history and beyond the wildest dreams even of most people in the world today.

I can't agree with pleas of poverty. Let them come!
that's the problem...you are filthy rich.
we are a small rock that's in a bad strategic location in the world. we can't afford them financially and physically. l

here's one article....
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080603/local/euro-385-678-spent-on-refugees-health-in-16-months

see how thin and emaciated they look :rolleyes:

Are you serious or being sarcastic? since Jeff hasn't put ^^^ or :p then serious?

Absolutely serious. I am pro-immigration and pro-free market.

A free market in people.

I don't know Jeff...I think that if you don't have quotas people can easily take advantage of this. And I am not talking about racially inclined quotas. Just something reasonable whereby everyone benefits.

Absolutely serious. I am pro-immigration and pro-free market.

A free market in people.

But don’t you think the illegal migration is chaotic?
I was told that in 1986 green cards were given for all residents, and that the today tens of thousands of illegal immigrants is the accumulation of 20 years! Let me know if not true!

I don't believe in any kind of quotas.

Quotas for what? There are no quotas on how many grocery stores there can be. No quotas on how many people can live in a city. No quotas on how many children people can have.

All those things work great! Or lots better than they would with quotas.

All this planning nonsense is European frufru. "Passports" were invented by Napoleon, that great benefactor of mankind.

We need people, we need fresh blood, we need folks who want to contribute.

What's wrong with Mexicans? They work really hard, they're really nice, they contribute all sorts of things. And most of them just want to earn a bundle and go back home.

The people with the guts and cojones to get here should be slapped on the back, given a thousand dollars and a green card and told "Welcome home!"

And we will be the gainers.

^that's all good Jeff, what about the fleecers, who want to abuse the system? who's gonna tie the bell around the cat's neck without being called 'racist'?

Jeff, I don't have issues with Mexicans but I do have issues with a country that cannot provide for its own people. I had a friend who was an illegal. He asked me when I was around 23 to marry him so he could get his green card. I said no. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. He eventually ended up marrying an American and having a kid with her.

I just think that there is so much America can give and give before she will self-implode. If we do not have quotas then there is chaos. Simple to me really.

Edit: I just want for everyone to know I am NOT racist against immigrants but DO believe in quotas because we have to have a system in place. I worked for the AmeriCorps-Vista program here in the USA right after I left college and came to St. Louis...I believe in helping Americans first which is what that program is all about. I have seen poverty first hand and know what it can do to people....I just think that those Americans need help first and foremost before we oblige ourselves in helping others in need.

But don’t you think the illegal migration is chaotic?
I was told that in 1986 green cards were given for all residents, and that the today tens of thousands of illegal immigrants is the accumulation of 20 years! Let me know if not true!

The free market is "chaotic", Pygmo. That's the secret to our success.

Planning prices and production sounds rational but it produces disaster. Letting things find their level and encouraging people to trade and produce freely produces bounty beyond our wildest imagination.

No. Freedom SOUNDS chaotic. But it's planning that is REALLY chaotic. Look at the Soviet Union!

Yes, illegal immigration is messy. And despicable. So give them green cards. And in five years, make them citizens along with the rest.

Good grief, all those people hiding, a whole underground economy of serfs and semi-slaves. Horrible!

They are here because we want them here. Businesses want them. Empolyers want them. And they want to be here.

That's the dirty secret. We're not sending them home because we don't WANT to send them home. We NEED them. But we can EXPLOIT them by pretending we don't want them.

No. If somebody is illegal, just legalize them. It's as simple as that.

Jeff, I don't have issues with Mexicans but I do have issues with a country that cannot provide for its own people. I had a friend who was an illegal. He asked me when I was around 23 to marry him so he could get his green card. I said no. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. He eventually ended up marrying an American and having a kid with her.

I just think that there is so much America can give and give before she will self-implode. If we do not have quotas then there is chaos. Simple to me really.

Edit: I just want for everyone to know I am NOT racist against immigrants but DO believe in quotas because we have to have a system in place. I worked for the AmeriCorps-Vista program here in the USA right after I left college and came to St. Louis...I believe in helping Americans first which is what that program is all about. I have seen poverty first hand and know what it can do to people....I just think that those Americans need help first and foremost before we oblige ourselves in helping others in need.


I don't believe you are a racist for one second, marianna! I think you are big-hearted and wonderful.

I just think you believe what most people believe: that societies benefit from planning.

It seems so obvious. But it isn't true. Societies benefit from a lack of planning.

here's one article....
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080603/local/euro-385-678-spent-on-refugees-health-in-16-months

see how thin and emaciated they look :rolleyes:

I read that article and it IS sad....I just wonder how much Malta can take though with their limited resources, square mile % of available land etc...before you too will self-implode. :inno:

And the solution is: We can take them! We have LOTS of room.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/new-york/images/s/new-york-statue-of-liberty.jpg

The quote from the Statue is a noble deed but back then America still had much room for expansion and development...I just see us hurting internally.

I have an off-topic questions Jeff…

-I see homeless people in big cities mainly under the bridges and begging at the intersections… don’t they have any kind of cover by the social security system?
-Why don’t they commit a minor crime and go to Jail?
It sounds naïve, but I don’t think imprisonment is worse.

And the solution is: We can take them! We have LOTS of room.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/new-york/images/s/new-york-statue-of-liberty.jpg
a few get taken by the US from us. usually they are not illegal immigrants but refugees. the illegal immigrants throw their passports in the sea as soon as they spot the Army boat and all claim to be from Sierra Leone. when they get interviewed, the truth proves otherwise.

I have an off-topic questions Jeff…

-I see homeless people in big cities mainly under the bridges and begging at the intersections… don’t they have any kind of cover by the social security system?
-Why don’t they commit a minor crime and go to Jail?
It sounds naïve, but I don’t think imprisonment is worse.

One of the problems is: Government Interference.

We used to have supercheap accomodation, that super poor people could afford. People called them "flophouses."

You could go rent a tiny room and sleep there, maybe with a few other people.

They were run better than homeless shelters because they were for pay, even if they pay wasn't much. So the owners policed them and made sure they met a low standard of quality...but a STANDARD.

But busybodies decided they weren't GOOD ENOUGH. So they were all closed down.

Another entrepreneur came up with the marvellous idea of free standing tiny houses for poor people and the homeless. Cheap, easily produced, fresh air, a place with grass.

But Oh! No! Not good enough! Call them "dog houses for the poor".

As a result, they have zilch. Only the streets.

In jail, Pygmo, people get raped. Yes, they do. It's one of our huge scandals. It's accepted and used as punishment. If you are a man and you are put in jail, you will be forced to become a homosexual slave.

Women too, frequently.

And people get killed too.

Jails are a horrible scandal. They are essentially run by the most brutal inmates. And even homeless people don't want to go there.

Another well run government service, you know.

But homeless people in America don't starve. No one starves here.

They get fresh air, they can go where they please, and do what they want. They can spend their money on drugs.

It's very sad. But it's better than jail.

Sadly the homeless here does include women and children and that is another reason I want resources to be given to women's aid shelters, to the indigent, to citizens who do suffer. And with monies being spent "elsewhere"...ok off my soapbox.

Thanks for the answer Jeff…
I thought of that but I also thought that was the case in the supermax jail only where the cruelest criminals reside!

I have an off-topic questions Jeff…

-I see homeless people in big cities mainly under the bridges and begging at the intersections… don’t they have any kind of cover by the social security system?
-Why don’t they commit a minor crime and go to Jail?
It sounds naïve, but I don’t think imprisonment is worse.


When you see an able bodied grown man, who is all skinny and looks like crap standing at an intersection with some sign saying he is "hungry", he is most likely a hardcore drug addict. They are just bumming to get their next fix. Most are probably not really even homeless. More like their heroin or meth addiction has so taken over that they just can not do anything besides bum off others, then get high, pass out and repeat.

They don't want help.

It's pathetic really, and why I disapprove of people who give them money because it only enables their addiction.

Jeff, I don't have issues with Mexicans but I do have issues with a country that cannot provide for its own people. I had a friend who was an illegal. He asked me when I was around 23 to marry him so he could get his green card. I said no. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. He eventually ended up marrying an American and having a kid with her.

I just think that there is so much America can give and give before she will self-implode. If we do not have quotas then there is chaos. Simple to me really.


We're all human. The borders and boundaries that we set up are of our own devices. Why shouldn't someone who can find a better opportunity for his or herself not be able to seek that opportunity? I think Jeff provided some valid points with great clarity. If you look closely at the US approach toward undocumented workers, then you will see that the US is a country very dependent upon immigrant labor, whether legal or illegal. It'd be naive of you to think that all or most of the immigrants that came to the US prior to the Mexican influx were all legal residents. The US is a country built upon illegal immigration. And in your analysis of the US policy toward illegal immigration, again, you will see a US that is very tolerant of these individuals. There's a reason that, despite all the hoopla about the ICE raids, you still don't see much federal crackdown on the actual employers who hire these individuals.

And it's also very naive of you to claim that Mexico can't take care of its own people.

According to the latest information available from the World Bank, Mexico had the highest Gross National Income per capita in Latin America, both in nominal terms and in purchasing power parity(PPP), at $7,830 and $11,990 respectively in 2006. Mexico has made an impressive recovery since 1994, building a modern and diversified economy. Recent administrations have also improved infrastructure and opened competition in seaports, railroads, telecommunications, electricity generation, natural gas distribution and airports. Oil is Mexico's largest source of foreign income. According to Goldman Sachs BRIMC review of emerging economies, by 2050 the largest economies in the world will be as follows: China, United States, India, Japan, Brazil, and Mexico.

It's often perceived to be a poor, impoverished country, and while there is no doubt that poverty exists throughout Mexico, it is not to the degree you might expect. But just as in any country, the US included, there are those sectors of the population that live in poverty despite the "wealth" around them. Some of these individuals choose to seek better opportunities abroad. According to the director for Mexico at the World Bank, the population in extreme poverty has decreased from 24.2% to 17.6% in the general population and from 42% to 27.9% in rural areas from 2000-2004. That's in a four year period. Since 1994, those numbers have been far more impressive. While income inequality remains a problem, and huge gaps remain between rich and poor but also between the north and the south, and between urban and rural areas, Mexico is making great strides to provide for its people and "take care of its own".

But when you compare someone living comfortably with an annual salary of $9,000, which is a great fortune by many standards across the world, you will have those individuals with drive enough to want to pack their bags and move to another country to make a good $30,000 instead.

It's not an easy feat to become the 12th largest economy in the world while also establishing oneself as an upper middle-income country.

And on your friend asking you to marry him. Again, it's foolish to think that such an act would somehow miraculously ease all your troubles. Marrying a US citizen does not remotely guarantee legal residency or citizenship, and it hasn't for decades.

When you see an able bodied grown man, who is all skinny and looks like crap standing at an intersection with some sign saying he is "hungry", he is most likely a hardcore drug addict. They are just bumming to get their next fix. Most are probably not really even homeless. More like their heroin or meth addiction has so taken over that they just can not do anything besides bum off others, then get high, pass out and repeat.

They don't want help.

It's pathetic really, and why I disapprove of people who give them money because it only enables their addiction.

While many such individuals do in fact have substance abuse problems, you have to understand that most suffer from neurological and psychological issues as well. It's very unfortunate, and while you may disapprove of my actions, knowing that my $1.00 might go toward making an individuals day worth living is better than me turning in disgust at a fellow human being.

Hey Cosme, why don't you tell us about how Mexico treats its own illegal immigrants from central America?

Hint (http://www.vdare.com/awall/060518_memo.htm).

While many such individuals do in fact have substance abuse problems, you have to understand that most suffer from neurological and psychological issues as well. It's very unfortunate, and while you may disapprove of my actions, knowing that my $1.00 might go toward making an individuals day worth living is better than me turning in disgust at a fellow human being.

Do you drive a car powered by your own sense of self righteousness?

Your $1 goes towards perpetuating their addiction only to have them come back the next day, to the very same spot, to get another dollar from another bleeding heart, naive sucker.

Personally I don't give money directly to the homeless. I always tell them to check out one of the many MANY shelters and I know that the Catholic Church helps immensely in this area. I always say I donate to charity and I do....I know where that $1.00 goes.

What about the people who have no intention of working a day in their lives, jeff?

Can I come to America, claim I'm running from poverty, and get a house, get medical care, get monthly cheques, get food stamps, get free education etc etc?

And if I did get that and then got it for my extended family and all my 12 kids.. (who are all able to work) .. don't you think that's akin to stealing? To taking something that's not even yours by possibly lying?

Maybe Jeff is playing the devil's advocate??

Maybe Jeff is playing the devil's advocate??
NOOOO!

WHO?

JEFFFF?

:hyper:

What about the people who have no intention of working a day in their lives, jeff?

Can I come to America, claim I'm running from poverty, and get a house, get medical care, get monthly cheques, get food stamps, get free education etc etc?

And if I did get that and then got it for my extended family and all my 12 kids.. (who are all able to work) .. don't you think that's akin to stealing? To taking something that's not even yours by possibly lying?
I'd be pretty pissed if you did that in MY country :os
I have to say I agree with you...

What about the people who have no intention of working a day in their lives, jeff?

Can I come to America, claim I'm running from poverty, and get a house, get medical care, get monthly cheques, get food stamps, get free education etc etc?

And if I did get that and then got it for my extended family and all my 12 kids.. (who are all able to work) .. don't you think that's akin to stealing? To taking something that's not even yours by possibly lying?

How's about we don't do that? The whole governmental charity thing skews the entire population, not just people fleeing from poverty and persecution.

THOSE people--even the ones who are coming now--are usually coming because they want to work. They have relatives at home pressuring them to send back money and they need to work to do it.

We have plenty of slackers here in America among our native population. I'd be happy to pack up all the slackers--Citizens and Non-Citizens, Native and Furners--and send them to work camps.

I don't know what you mean by "claim I'm running from poverty". Who are we talking about, Saudis? Pretty much everyone coming from the Third World is coming from poverty.

Our welfare for all its flaws pushes people to get off and into the work force.

Maybe Jeff is playing the devil's advocate??

"One could argue..."

"They might say..."

"A person could believe..."

Those are tip offs that I am pointing out what's fair or what a person might honestly hold, though I might disagree with it.

But I am in favor of open immigration, I always have been.

Not for Malta. Not for Oman.

But for America.

We are a nation of immigrants, that's why we exist.

And we aren't suffering miserable poverty and deprivation. We are filthy rich, rich as Croesus.

The only problems immigrants cause us are problems of our own making: failure to quickly assimilate (because we won't teach them to), overburdening welfare and other social programs (because the programs are idiotic..not to mention they'd contribute a lot more if they were legal and could pay taxes), etc.

So we'll go under like a sinking ship if we let the poor come here? They come anyway...we can't stop them. And it's all nonsense about not being able to afford them.

Several years ago the INS did a test along the Mexican border with Texas. They strung agents out within sight of each other and simply shut the border down. No one could get across.

And El Paso and other border towns SCREAMED! No workers to do the jobs! Economy coming unglued. LET THEM BACK IN!

We don't want to stop immigration. We can't do it. We shouldn't do it. We won't do it. No sense in fantasizing about nonsense.

We need to drastically liberalize our immigration laws and figure out how to manage our immigrants and help them, not turn them into a semicriminal underclass so we can take advantage of them.

That's not what the Devil thinks. That's what Jeff thinks.

Once again--as with memorizing poetry--I stand ALONE.

:)

Jeff.. Even America needs productive people. You don't need people who will just take and give nothing back to the country.

So what is poverty to you?

Let's see.

What do you call someone who claims to be poor, but carries a sattelite phone with them?

A liar?
Prioritically challenged? (yes, I just made that word up)

And the solution is: We can take them! We have LOTS of room.

Dude, Jeff,

Stop saying that. No more "tired" and no more "poor". We're all filled up here. They can go somewhere else or stay home.

The solution is for the countries who have untold amounts of people immgrating to another country is for their govt's to get their collective acts together and make something of themselves and boost the economy of that particular country.

Hey Cosme, why don't you tell us about how Mexico treats its own illegal immigrants from central America?

Hint (http://www.vdare.com/awall/060518_memo.htm).

You aren't telling me anything new. If you want this issue addressed then start a new thread. But for now, the topic at hand has to do with undocumented workers in the US, its effects on US taxpayers and the economy, and the role of the Mexican government in regards to US/Mexico relations.

for those who want to call us racist and whatever.
here's a little summary of the illegal immigration coming to our beautiful shores this year.
and the season hasn't started properly yet. 9000 currently reside on the island, being fed by me and my countryfolk.

Here's a little summary of this illegal immigration season:




http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...rought-ashore/

+12 – 08/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...nd-in-the-sea/

+0 (3 dead) – 08/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...-found-at-sea/

+0( 9 dead) – 09/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...tunisia-coast/

+0 (47 dead) – 12/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...-from-the-sea/

+28 – 16/05/2008


http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...zes-off-malta/

+27 – 17/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...-found-at-sea/

+ 0 – (6 dead) – 21/05/2008


http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...grants-arrive/

+27 -22/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...at-ghar-lapsi/

+29 – 23/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...nts-continues/

+26 – 24/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...mgarr-harbour/

+26 – 25/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...ieved-drowned/

+13 - 26/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...-golden-sands/

+21 -27/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...ve-for-the-us/

-34 – 31/05/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...ls-in-one-day/

+54 – 1/06/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...ance-programme

-3 – 5/06/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...-at-golden-bay

+28 – 6/06/2008

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080607/local/afm-rescues-56-migrants

+56 – 7/06/2008

----------------------

If i'm counting well adding and subtracting.. its 310 till now.

I feel ya Mini...what is ironic is why aren't these people being taken in by like-minded cultures with similar laws etc? What is going to happen when you guys start to run out of space and have to build homes in areas previously seen as pristine and pure due to no human settlements? Or when you start having to rise prices of your goods and services since the demand will be so high? The native population will suffer because the governments of these illegal immigrants are cowards and idiotic donkeys not able to take care of their own problems.