... ahh your descrminating my religion (http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/article.jsp?Section=NATIONAL&ID=565305129072721941)!

Company has given dress policy ... but muslims refuse to follow them.

''For these women, wearing tight-fitting pants is like being naked,'' said Valerie Shirley, a spokeswoman for the Minnesota chapter of CAIR. ''It's simply not an option.''

CAIR issued a press release calling on Mission Foods to reinstate the women in their jobs. However, the group declined to disclose the names of the women and would not make them available for interviews Tuesday.

Gruma Corporation, the Irving, Texas-based parent company of Mission Foods, released a written statement Tuesday denying that any employees were terminated or disciplined at the New Brighton plant. However, the company made clear the six women have been relieved of their responsibilities for the time being, and may ultimately lose their jobs if they don't wear uniforms.

''Should these employees choose to adhere to the current Mission Foods uniform policy, they may return to their positions with the company,'' the company statement said. ''However, these positions will need to be filled as soon as possible and cannot be held indefinitely.''

A company spokeswoman said she could not provide photographs of the uniforms.

I'd like to these "uniforms". I already know what naked looks like as these woman claim they would be by werain this uniform ... :rolleyes:

why did they apply for a job if they didn't like the dress code?
rofl....like they can also apply to be waitresses at hooters and then demand the abaya to be kept at all times.

The never ending merry go round !

When will it end ?

If wearing tight pants is like being naked, why apply to a job if you know you are going to be naked the whole time?
That's pretty dumb, these women shouldn't have joined if they felt the uniform too exposing.

A job where they have to wear tight fitting clothing for safety's sake cannot be changed. I worked at a factory one summer between college semesters and trust me, if you wore loose fitting clothing, or clothing which could hamper your vision or be caught on machinary....would ensure a fatal or horrible disaster.

I also read in the article where some Muslim cashiers refused to scan pork products because it interferes with their beliefs.

Look, I am all for not eating pork, handling it etc...but if you work in an environment where pork is sold you cannot hold up the line because you don't want to touch it. Simply do not work in a business that sells it. Period.

From the article it seems they were not knowing since the beginning that they should dress that way
And after all, if there is an equal opportunity commission in US, there must be a reason
No ?

Reason is safety. Period. Nothing can change. If you wear loose clothing in a factory trust me you're going to get something caught.

All this will do is make employers more careful about hiring muslims.

You never know when it will turn around and bite you in the backside.

Uniforms. pork, prayer times, it goes on and on.

I guess CAIR can complain about discrimination when muslims find it harder to get jobs.

Places like Minnesota must be rueing the day they decided to settle refugee Somali in their state.

I have worked around those rollar things they are talking about. You can get your fingers pinched, a sleeve caught....just because these ladies are not working around moving machines doesn't mean an accident cannot happen. I don't know what the outcome will be but I think a Tshirt really isn't that immodest. And I doubt that they are made to wear those hip hugging pants you see teeny boppers running around in but those god awful ugly factory comformity pants they are NOT attractive and they are NOT that form fitting.

From the article it seems they were not knowing since the beginning that they should dress that way
And after all, if there is an equal opportunity commission in US, there must be a reason
No ?

There is a reason for everything. But often, it's a stupid reason! :p

Don't get me wrong...I would like to see companies decide to do their best to work with people's religious beliefs and practices. That would be my attitude if I were in charge of the place.

But I'm not in favor of "equal opportunity commissions".

All this will do is make employers more careful about hiring muslims.

You never know when it will turn around and bite you in the backside.

Uniforms. pork, prayer times, it goes on and on.

I guess CAIR can complain about discrimination when muslims find it harder to get jobs.

Places like Minnesota must be rueing the day they decided to settle refugee Somali in their state.
If you don't hire Muslims 'just cause they're Muslims' that IS discrimination...

I agree...the thing is for Muslims who dress modestly to be aware of what the uniform is for factory work. Certain guidelines are in place to ensure the safety of all workers. I think that companies need to ENSURE that these potential employees realize what kind of uniform is required for the job. That way they know if they still want to work there or not.

cair (http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=24849&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1) says they were not on a conveyor belt
spencer (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/28/muslims-file-suit-against-work-uniforms) says they were near a conveyor belt [and he sounds expert !!!]
Whatca gonna do

TL.

I agree.

But if you were an employer.
And you had a choice between a muslim and non muslim.
And you know about all these issues.

Who do you think you'd go for ?

there are many good muslims who dress in all sorts of uniforms. i'm sure they can find a middle way to accomodate both.
in the uk, sikh policemen wear the normal uniform but have a blue turban instead of the police hat. most uniforms are modest anyway.

cair (http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=24849&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1) says they were not on a conveyor belt
spencer (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/28/muslims-file-suit-against-work-uniforms) says they were near a conveyor belt [and he sounds expert !!!]
Whatca gonna do

I don't belive a word that CAIR (the unindicted co-conspirator in the Hamas funding case) puts out.

In other word, they are a bunch of liars.

cair (http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=24849&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1) says they were not on a conveyor belt
spencer (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/28/muslims-file-suit-against-work-uniforms) says they were near a conveyor belt [and he sounds expert !!!]
Whatca gonna do

Looks like Ed Morissey to me, not Bob...

If you don't hire Muslims 'just cause they're Muslims' that IS discrimination...If you dont hire musllims that continue to cost your business headaches ...

Thats not descimination ...

Thats good business ... :hyper:

If these women are in an area with conveyer belts they have no case.

They don't have to be working on the conveyer belt itself.

TL.

I agree.

But if you were an employer.
And you had a choice between a muslim and non muslim.
And you know about all these issues.

Who do you think you'd go for ?
I'd go for whoever has more expertise or whoever qualifies for the job's requirements better.
It's really that simple. I won't judge somebody for a job for what some of his people did. Would you?

Looks like Ed Morissey to me, not Bob...
lol true
am such a fan of blogging the Quran that hadn't noticed
They're all alike to me, don't know why ... :cute:

I would go for whoever is the most qualified. Right now I am applying for a higher position and I would hope I would get hired based on my qualifications and not my race. Who wants incompetent people in their company?

I'd go for whoever has more expertise or whoever qualifies for the job's requirements better.
It's really that simple. I won't judge somebody for a job for what some of his people did. Would you?
i'd employ a muslim wholeheartedly if they conformed to the rules of the job and they were good at the job itself.
ex. if i had to employ a teacher at my school, i'd insist the face to be uncovered at all times, because facial expression is important when you teach and sports wear (even if she covers her head with some sports gear, it's ok) must be worn at sports activities etc. if they are ok with that, i'm ok with them. welcome to the job.

Agreed 100% Mini.

^And you have all the rights to that as an employer who controls the business.
My only case is this:
If somebody comes up and says, 'Hey, I'm Muslim. I'd love to apply for this job. I'll take all your conditions with no objections'.
And then the employer goes, 'Sorry, we don't hire Muslims. Most are a big hassle to other companies and so I'm not hiring them'.
Then we have a problem.
We seem to agree here minerva, I think.

Ah, but you think the employer will say it like that ?

Nah.

He say let me think about it. Then he'll think "hmm.. it looks fine now but maybe down the road.. they won't want to wear a uniform or want special breaks to pray or some thing else.... maybe I should save myself lots of grief and not employ the muslim at all".

That's the entirely normal way to think.

^And you have all the rights to that as an employer who controls the business.
My only case is this:
If somebody comes up and says, 'Hey, I'm Muslim. I'd love to apply for this job. I'll take all your conditions with no objections'.
And then the employer goes, 'Sorry, we don't hire Muslims. Most are a big hassle to other companies and so I'm not hiring them'.
Then we have a problem.
We seem to agree here minerva, I think.
yes..phew lol.
i think everything should be put in writing when hiring someone.

a friend of ours was building his house. he hired a syrian plasterer.
so the syrian plasterer goes awol for a few days and this guy phones him 'where are you'....he answers 'its' eid, i'm muslim'....friend goes 'ok, then can you come on sunday'
'no i can't on sunday cos nobody works on sunday'. friend goes 'are you muslim or not? i thought your sunday was friday'.
he didnt' turn up on the sunday and got told to pack his tools and leave.
so that was a case of a muslim who went in for a job that had to be finished within a certain deadline (cos friend wanted to move into house, as his old house was sold, and people were pressuring him to move out, costing him some money), and didn't do the job well, getting his religion as an excuse.

Threadlike & amo | oman, better leave this thread because this thread is going nowhere, the real intention of this thread is not to promote healthy discussion, but to express hatred and to show the world that Muslims are criminals :yes:

The best thing is to get it all in writing. Make sure all stipulations, uniforms, expectations, rules etc...are there. And for potential employees they need to ask QUESTIONS about the company and especially if they have certain religious practices which might interfere with their job they must bring it up like the clothing issue.

If they don't and later they find out that the company goes against their beliefs it is the fault of the employee not the employer.

As long as the employer is upfront about things and conforms to the regulations regarding civil rights, workers rights etc...I don't see an issue. It is the responsibility of the employer to provide the necessary information regarding the job and it is the responsiblity of the potential employee to be as well informed as possible regarding the position. There is no excuse for ignorance at all.

Threadlike & amo | oman, better leave this thread because this thread is going nowhere, the real intention of this thread is not to promote healthy discussion, but to express hatred and to show the world that Muslims are criminals :yes:
they were quite happy to discuss and we even managed to agree on some issues. now shoo shoo, unless you have something to say regarding employment and uniforms on muslims :hyper:

Ah, but you think the employer will say it like that ?

Nah.

He say let me think about it. Then he'll think "hmm.. it looks fine now but maybe down the road.. they won't want to wear a uniform or want special breaks to pray or some thing else.... maybe I should save myself lots of grief and not employ the muslim at all".

That's the entirely normal way to think.

If that's the 'entirely normal' way to think, then our definition of 'entirely normal' is clearly very different.
Put yourself in their shoes...
I mean, at least for once.
If you are a Muslim applying desperately for a job and everybody doesn't wanna hire you because you're 'likely to cause a problem in the future' even though you have a clean CV, you'd be pretty pissed off.

But Marianna, if the employee asks specific questions on religion you can bet the lobby groups will be up in arms that religious discrimination is being practised.

So what will happen is that employers will quietly use their discretion and not employ muslims so that thay can avoid potential problems down the road.

And as usual, the muslims will make life more difficult for muslims.

TL,

I understand exactly what you are saying.

But the solution is that groups like CAIR step up and get these women in line and tell them to get over it.

THAT will send the right mesage to employers.

PS: I'm sure these women also had 'clean cv's' when they first applied the jobs.

last week i bought some halal stuff from a really nice muslim egyptian woman. she was hired by a maltese company. her hair was like mine, uncovered, she was dressed modestly and spoke my language, even in a funny way, but i admired her effort. i had a lovely chat with her. she was here because she wanted to work for her family back home. she was qualified for the job, because the stuff she was selling was specifically halal, and she could explain herself to the muslim customers. at the same time she made herself approachable by dressing in a way that was modest, but not to differently. i didn't need her halal products, but she made me buy them because i saw a person who was ready to give up some of her traditional ways to come across to all sorts of customers, and she was so polite. i'm sure that's why the maltese employer gave her the job.

Sorry what I meant was if someone asks do they hire Muslims you can tell the potential employee that they hire the best qualified individual. The interview has to be tailored where religion doesn't become the main topic because certain subject matter is taboo. When I was in college and taking classes in HR including how to interview questions about religion were considered inappropriate.

Now, questions about uniform requirements are not. In the Army we don't have a problem. Everyone HAS to wear the same thing or they are considered disobedient and can be kicked out.

Not saying a private company HAS to conform this way but they have uniforms for certain jobs to identify the employee with that particular company, or for safety reasons etc.

minerva:
Egyptians, of course, are usually the best :p

wudjab:
I don't see where you're going here.
If CAIR does not do that, if CAIR has a bunch of morons running it, why do Muslims have to suffer from racist employers?
It doesn't compute!

my mother has two muslim women who work for her. they wear the normal uniform. she specified so in the interview.
a few months ago she had a somali muslim woman who wanted to go to work (mum runs the houskeeping dept in a big hotel, and these women are employed as chamber-maids) in her traditional dress, saying that she's muslim. she had her head covered and this very baggy dress that my mum deemed unsafe to work with. her dress could have caught in a lift, in her trolley wheels, not to mention that cleaning a room means getting all your arms wet up to the elbows, so that woman had to go, because her dress didn't conform to mum's health and safety manual.
the other two muslim women she employed are fantastic workers. they take fridays off but go in to work on sundays. mum gives them time off for eid, and when christmas comes, they go in to work, when the other maids have their days off. works brilliantly.

Because CAIR is the leading Muslim advocacy group in the US ?

Because they are always leading the charge claiming Islamophobia ?

Because CAIR has this newstory prominently on their website ? Because the woman quoted in the article is the CAIR representative ?

Why should an employer suffer ? He is in business to make money. If employees are off work, he loses.

you can get workers who object to jobs from different faiths and cultures. the minute they use the race/religion card, alarm bells start sounding.

^Wudjab,
You're putting in something like this:
I've seen an African man robbing a ketchup bottle from a restaurant.
African organizations never specifically talk about robbing ketchup bottles from restaurants.
Therefore I'm not hiring any African in my restaurant even if he had been working as a restaurant manager for ten years.

THAT, as a I said, does not compute.

It would not compute if there was only one incident.

But when you have Cashiers in Targer refusing to scan pork, Taxi drivers refusing to carry passengers with alcohol and blind passengers with guide dogs, dell assembly line workers demanding to be allowed to pray at their choosing, etc, etc, then it begins to computer perfectly well.

^Wudjab,
You're putting in something like this:
I've seen an African man robbing a ketchup bottle from a restaurant.
African organizations never specifically talk about robbing ketchup bottles from restaurants.
Therefore I'm not hiring any African in my restaurant even if he had been working as a restaurant manager for ten years.

THAT, as a I said, does not compute.

I'm putting it like this:

I've seen a Muslim woman agreeing to conditions then after hired demand her religious DRESS be respected.

Muslim women are doing this on a regular basis now and more and more often.

Therefore I'm not hiring any Muslim woman in my restaurant even if she had been working as a restaurant manager for ten years.

Which does compute ...

It computes that you don't expect any good employees among Muslims even if they individually have excellent CVs and willingness to work?
Or that they all don't deserve a chance for a decent job cause some of them make bad employees? Which religion doesn't have adherents who are bad employees! But of course, that's not the matter in question. The matter in question is: Which religion doesn't have adherents who are bad employees that don't make it to the headlines.

The only thing I can think of is to make sure any potential employee knows what the dress code is and that it will not change. That the reason for the dress code HAS to be lined out to them so there is NO potential for any lawsuits. That is just how it is in the business world and to prevent any misunderstandings.

If the potential employee wants to be hired knowing full well what the dress code is then the employee has to abide by those rules.

If they don't like those rules then they can find a job that allows them to dress in their respective clothing.

The only thing I can think of is to make sure any potential employee knows what the dress code is and that it will not change. That the reason for the dress code HAS to be lined out to them so there is NO potential for any lawsuits. That is just how it is in the business world and to prevent any misunderstandings.

If the potential employee wants to be hired knowing full well what the dress code is then the employee has to abide by those rules.

If they don't like those rules then they can find a job that allows them to dress in their respective clothing.

Perfectly put!
To blindly 'shut all of them out' sounds like a very dumb/discriminating thing to do.
If they agree on the rules (including EVERYTHING) welcome on.
If they don't, they're free to find another job that suits them more.

I think people get so over sensitive on this topic they are not realizing how to argue in a plain logical manner which is understandable. I get upset. But one has to look at the company...they work off of profits and losses. If a person is hired and doesn't conform to the dress standards or work standards then that is a loss for the company. If training was put into that person that is also a loss. Loss of time and money. Cold hard facts. But just how it is.

That is why I always say things have to be spelled out and employees know what they are getting into before they are hired and employers need to ensure that they cover all bases when hiring anyone irregardless of religion.

TL,

What happens if they agree when they join and the change their mind later ... as has been hapenning more and more frequently ?

^You fire them.
I won't be complaining if you do. Unless you fired them because:
You didn't tell them every thing about the job to start with, made them lose all commitments with other job opportunities for yours and then oh-so-suddenly remembered an absent condition after they signed the contract.

Whether there are others who are complaining for other reasons, not my business.
That doesn't make me undeserving of a job if I qualify for one. If it does, then you're discriminating. Period.

For me, I would wonder why after an employee understands what the company is about and what the rules are would want exceptions to their behavior after the fact? That is ***why*** there are guidelines in place, rules in place to ensure there is no special treatment.

I know if I ran a company I would make ***sure*** anyone I hire ***knows*** what they are getting into.

If they try to change things once hired I would remind them about the interview and if they continue to push make sure with my legal aid that all is fine and fire them.

Ah TL, there's the rub.

The company fired them.

They have now filed a complaint (backed by CAIR) with the EEOC.

See companies would much prefer to spend their time and money focussing on making products and making money.. not fighting idiotic lawsuits over stupid issues.

So the next time Mission Foods is hiring, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll be pretty careful who they hire.

Why it is ok for non muslim women to be treated as sex objects by wearing such exposing dress, at least muslim women are trying to maintain their dignity.

I think this company should consider muslim women and provide them with a situable dress that match with Islamic dress code.

Why it is ok for non muslim women to be treated as sex objects by wearing such exposing dress,

Just because they wear such "exposing" dress, does not mean they are being treated nor asked to be treated as sex objects.

And why is being treated like a sex object so bad? I wish I could be so unfortunate. :D

Why it is ok for non muslim women to be treated as sex objects by wearing such exposing dress, at least muslim women are trying to maintain their dignity.

I think this company should consider muslim women and provide them with a situable dress that match with Islamic dress code.
why does everybody have to bend over backwards for the whims of some people? uniform is uniform. they wanna be modest, they can tie their hair in a bun and put a scarf around it. no fussing needed.

If it was for safety reasons, I'd understand..
But sometimes jobs have these gay outfits they make you wear for no apparent reason but because it's the "look" for the place.

When I usually apply for a job, I let it know what I have a problem with or what I would need.. I worked at a government job in Canada.. And they let me take my prayer breaks no problem ;)

And guess what

I don't see why I can't work at a place I really wanna work at.. But the outit they'll provide is a lil bit on the revealing side.. Like I said if it has nothing to do with Safety.. I'd speak up to change it..

I Really wanted to work at this place.. But the gurls outfit was kinda showing off a lil too much.. I told the lady look.. I know im good for this position and all but if I get hired that outfit is a No, No.. And yess she even said thats the outfit everyone wears and blah blah blah.. and I went.. Yeah thats fine.. I'd wear it but im gonna remix it a bit where it's good for me .. And she asked me how would I do that.. And I explained to her i'd change this and that but keep that.. And she laughed but she loved it..

She hired moi and I got to wear the "uniform" in a way where I was good with it too..

So yeah.. ppl Can speak up and should speak up cuz you'd be surprised..
I just keep it real Always.. And if they like it they like it.. If not their loss ;)

So theres no such thing as .. Dont work at place if u dont like it.. in my books..
If I can bring change where it'll work for you and them, why not I say..

why does everybody have to bend over backwards for the whims of some people? uniform is uniform. they wanna be modest, they can tie their hair in a bun and put a scarf around it. no fussing needed.

So now covering your private parts considered something backward, interesting!

I think women are used to attract customers by wearing such uniform, women bodies are being used for business.

Another case of "you must meet my Islamic demands (http://www.ansamed.info/en/news/ME03.@AM19100.html)" ... :rolleyes:

ANSAmed) - ANKARA, MAY 28 - A crisis broke out when a Dutch man seated next to a headscarf-wearing Turkish woman on an airplane was removed from his seat, Turkish news channel NTV reported yesterday. The crisis occurred aboard a Royal Dutch Airlines (KLM) plane flying from the Dutch capital Amsterdam to Istanbul. After takeoff, the woman asked that the man seated next to her be moved to another seat, arguing that it would be a sin under Islam for her to be sitting next to a man who is not her relative. As a result, the man, Lex van Drooge, who is a member of the Amsterdam Municipal Council for the Dutch governing party, the Christian Democratic Appeal, or CDA, was removed from the seat. Upon landing, van Drooge complained about the situation. In a statement to the press, van Drooge said the airline did not seem to know how to deal with this kind of situation. The headline about the incident in the Dutch press read, "KLM submitted to Islam." The airline company has started an investigation into the behavior of the cabin crew and issued a statement about the incident. The statement said such a practice is unacceptable, adding that the reason the male passenger was removed from his seat instead of the female passenger remains unclear. (ANSAmed).

In almost all of these I contend have nothing to do with "a job", "a seat" etc etc ... it has to do with WHAT!

What do you think it is all about?

Nothing wrong with it, Muslim women should be given special treatment, after all she paid for the ticket to feel comfortable so obviously she was not comfortable with this Dutch man sitting next to her.

^She didn't pay for who should sit next to her or not sit next to her. He has the same right of being comfortable wherever the hell he had booked just as she does...

What about him?

On a flight from Austria I had an old Nun behind me who whenever she left her seat, which was often, would use my seat to lever herself up, I asked the steward if I could move to feel more comfortable and not make the Nun uncomfortable. Its the polite thing to do. I am a better human than that woman on the KLM flight...

Don't worry he will be more comfortable sitting next to Dutch woman.

jack, waiting for your next case.

What about him?

On a flight from Austria I had an old Nun behind me who whenever she left her seat, which was often, would use my seat to lever herself up, I asked the steward if I could move to feel more comfortable and not make the Nun uncomfortable. Its the polite thing to do. I am a better human than that woman on the KLM flight...

But you are dealing with an old woman and a woman like you, but the case here that she is a woman and he is a man, so out of respect the man should move not the woman, agree?

Honestly what do any of the posters here plan to achieve with this discussion ? What do you want proven ?

jack, waiting for your next case.They happen everyday ... :hyper:

everyday ... somewhere.

But you are dealing with an old woman and a woman like you, but the case here that she is a woman and he is a man, so out of respect the man should move not the woman, agree?

In this case the woman had the problem with the seating. The man did not.

Honestly what do any of the posters here plan to achieve with this discussion ?

Arrogance and Holier-than thou

I will give you an example of my own work environment. I work in a federal facility that houses 74 million military records. We have security guards in the front and the back and in each entrance/exit points. In order to get into my facility, visitor or employee one must show a picture ID and in order to get through they have to see your face. Anyone who does not comply does not get in.

We have two 15 minute breaks and one half hour lunch break. People who go over that i.e. going to smoke or whatever can be written up for taking extended breaks. So rules are in place at my facility for many reasons. The govt does accomodate people but to a certain degree. When it interferes with the work environment that is when people get called to the carpet irregardless of religious preference. You could be an atheist but if you do not comform to the rules you either get written up or fired. Period. No if's and's or but's.

And in regards to "revealing outfits".....the only revealing outfit I can think of are girls who work at Hooters or lifeguards. So a factory worker who is asked to wear clothing that will not get caught in machines is not being "revealing" but is done so because it is meeting certain standards for that company regarding safety.

They happen everyday ... :hyper:

everyday ... somewhere.


That is an indication of following the Islamic teachings, so it is a good thing. :)


In this case the woman had the problem with the seating. The man did not.

No problem, I think next time this woman will ask to sit near a woman while checking in.

If there are no seats to be had on the airplane what then? The woman would just have to deal with it. Sorry but that is how it is. If the man moves because he doesn't want to offend the lady he is being a gentleman. But people have to realize the world doesn't cater to them--no one cares man....maybe some but the majority are focused on getting to where they have to. And I don't know how many times I have been offended in my travels but I simply deal with it.

So now covering your private parts considered something backward, interesting!

I think women are used to attract customers by wearing such uniform, women bodies are being used for business.
bending over backwards is an expression.
(does not mean covering up is backwards) were you seeing double reading my post?
i googled it for you.

http://www.goenglish.com/BendOverBackwards.asp

You bend over backwards when you put yourself in an uncomfortable position in order to help another person. Example: "We bent over backwards to help him, and he never even thanked us!"

It is difficult to bend over backwards, and it feels awkward, but you are willing to do it to help certain people. Example: "My dad knows that I would bend over backwards to help him if he needed it."

At other times you are only willing to help when it is convenient for you, and you would not bend over backwards. Example: "I will help you out if you need it, but I am not bending over backwards for you."

Arrogance and Holier-than thou

Come on now, stick to your word.

A man's word is his honor.

You promised to say away from this thread.

No honor, no man.

That is an indication of following the Islamic teachings, so it is a good thing. :)



No problem, I think next time this woman will ask to sit near a woman while checking in.
See.. so since she did not inform the clerk of her preferences, neither the airline and neither the passenger are obliged to do anything at that point. She has no right to DEMAND anything.

She can ask nicely. And while she#s at it, apologise too for the inconvenience her sudden special requirements is causing the people around her.

But muslims are special.

The rest of us need to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to satisfy their every whim.

No scanning pork
No wearing uniforms.
No following shift timings.
No carrying passengers with alcohol.
No carrying blind passengers with guide dogs.
No sitting next to a man in a commercial aircraft.
No ice cream cones with swirly designs.
No piggy banks.
No St. Georges Cross on British Flags.

Whine whine whine.

No wonder the rest of the world is getting fed up of this crap.

You forgot crosses on necklaces, Piglet, Christmas greetings... I'll think of more if I put my mind to it.

All so really offensive to some people.

All we can do is pray that the huggy leftists in the west grow a backbone and stand up to this crap.

This is know as sharia by stealth.. and the only way to stop it is to step right up to it and challenge it.

Why mods still don't ban wudjab .

Why should they ? Nothing I have written is false.

How bout you kick out all the Muslims from your countries...
Then have a fun time finding others who'll drive your cabs, run your shops, pack your shopping, serve your food and get your taxes.

No But muslims are special.

The rest of us need to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to satisfy their every whim.

No scanning pork
No wearing uniforms.
No following shift timings.
No carrying passengers with alcohol.
No carrying blind passengers with guide dogs.
No sitting next to a man in a commercial aircraft.
No ice cream cones with swirly designs.
No piggy banks.
No St. Georges Cross on British Flags.

Whine whine whine.
wonder the rest of the world is getting fed up of this crap.

You forgot crosses on necklaces, Piglet, Christmas greetings... I'll think of more if I put my mind to it.

All so really offensive to some people.


Sucks to be you guys doesn't it? LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!

And Wudjab stop speaking on behalf of the world plz, And take it EASY
You can complain all u like, But it's not gonna change sh!t ;) Lol

How about the muslims over here learn to live like others ? You know, keep your personal religious requirements for your house / mosque ?

How bout you kick out all the Muslims from your countries...
Then have a fun time finding others who'll drive your cabs, run your shops, pack your shopping, serve your food and get your taxes.
I wouldn't be bothered a bit if I were him. They have plenty of jocks to do all the above there :D

Sucks to be you guys doesn't it? LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!

And Wudjab stop speaking on behalf of the world plz, And take it EASY
You can complain all u like, But it's not gonna change sh!t ;) Lol
Well Jadore, the whole "OMG I'm going to get offended today" frenzy was unheard of 10, 15 years ago.

Muslim immigrants, like the rest of the internatinal immigrant groups, felt lucky to be allowed into wealthier and more prosperous countries, which offered them jobs, housing, protection from rogue leaders and their henchmen, free healthcare and even free food.

But look at second generation immigrants. Just look at how cocky they're all getting. Staging protests in the streets of the country that took them in, and spreading hatred AGAINST that sam country that let them in...

And thready, with all due respect. Most of the people you said are 'getting taxes' .. not sure what that meant but I imagine paying taxes to the country... On the contrary.. most are actually a financial burden ON the social sector where a muslim man will have 4 wives, 8 children each wife and get the government to pay for their housing, food, health, schooling etc.. AND unemployment benefits..all from british tax payers (including muslims who DO work).. while they all have the latest model family cars..

The silly, the stupid, the drunk, the corrupt, the extremists, the fundementalist .. muslims... are a problem to us ALL.

Before good people such as yourself realise this, you and others will never learn to disassociate yourselves from the rotten apples of your society or group, and therefore will just keep on sweeping the problem under the carpet and turning a blind eye.. even making excuses for them. (I'm not saying you do, just for argument's sake).


Why don't westerners get offended when you slam drunkards? Drug pushers? Prostitutes? etc?

Because we know how to disassociate ourselves from them. We know that is wrong and we're NOT AFRAID TO SAY SO.

Self criticism is a HUGE HUGE problem for many many muslims, unfortunately.

1st of all.. I'm pretty sure it's nice to be able to throw all of the countries problem on one religion but lets get real here.. Muslims aren't the only ones to blame for these problems.. Half the shit you said up there could go towards the ppl who are born or from that same Country to begin with..

And U kno what.. I say live with it..

If all these muslims weren't able to do all of that or get away with it.. Then they wouldn't have done it im sure.. But U GUYS made it where THEY CAN , AND WILL..
Sooooooo before complaining and blaming the "muslims"

Blame yourselves.. Lool

Well said Thalia. I feel the exact same way as stated.

And it isn't about throwing all the country's ills on one group. Any group who doesn't abide the laws has to be dealt with. For me I believe in obeying the laws. If a law is unjust then you go through the legal means to try and get them to change through a democratic process. That is how it is suppose to work. With the advent of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960's not only did African Americans find freedom down the road in regards to jobs and housing...so did other minority groups.

Yes we blame ourselves that we weren't more careful in who we let in.

But Honey, its changing.

For example, here in the Great White North, the Government has introduced an immigration bill that will give the Minister discretion on who to let in.

It has the muslim community in an uproar and the usual leftists like the Liberals and NDP who only ever got elected by pandering to vote banks have their panties in a twist.

You just have to ask.

PS: Thready. You're welcome here. We KNOW you won't be trouble. :D

1st of all.. I'm pretty sure it's nice to be able to throw all of the countries problem on one religion but lets get real here.. Muslims aren't the only ones to blame for these problems.. Half the shit you said up there could go towards the ppl who are born or from that same Country to begin with..

And U kno what.. I say live with it..

If all these muslims weren't able to do all of that or get away with it.. Then they wouldn't have done it im sure.. But U GUYS made it where THEY CAN , AND WILL..
Sooooooo before complaining and blaming the "muslims"

Blame yourselves.. Lool
llloooooooollll or LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

But, what wudjab is saying is the same exact thing. Enough of this shit. About time we put our foot down on the people who have a problem living here and tell them to fek off out of our home.

Thank you for recognising and agreeing that this need does exist.

oh and LOOOOL.

And thready, with all due respect. Most of the people you said are 'getting taxes' .. not sure what that meant but I imagine paying taxes to the country... On the contrary.. most are actually a financial burden ON the social sector where a muslim man will have 4 wives, 8 children each wife and get the government to pay for their housing, food, health, schooling etc.. AND unemployment benefits..all from british tax payers (including muslims who DO work).. while they all have the latest model family cars..

I'm not exactly sure of where the 'most' fits in here or at least what you mean by it...
I know quite a HUGE number of Muslims in the UK and in Canda (through my cousins there) and they're all working people. All pay their taxes.
Just cause you have the entire media sitting and waiting for the next Muslim asking a man next to her to move to another seat, does not entirely imply that 'most' Muslims are big troublemakers.

As I said, these are your countries.
If you want, you can get them out easily. In wudjab's book, that'd be all Muslims, the productive and unproductive, even people like Dr. Ahmad Zewail out of Caltech, since they're 'likely to be a hassle in the future'.

Another Muslim VS Non-Muslim thread ? Boring :bored: :bored:

Thalia, generaliztion is not wise. Tell me out of 7 million Muslims in USA plus 1 million Muslims in Canada, how many of them are causing trouble to their country ? And support your claim with crime statistics etc. please ? :mmhmm: Yes I admit there are few Muslim individuals who are culprits to the society ( and I condemn them ) , but every community has culprits on the own. But the way you describe Muslim immigrants is as if they are all criminals :mmhmm:

Ouch, I didn't see wudjab's last post...
I sounded kinda unfriendly in my previous post...But, thanks for the invitation :D

hmmm ... Germany is taking your advice (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,556144,00.html)

Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats on Wednesday said they would like to see Germany take on thousands of refugees from Iraq. The hitch? They only want the Christians.

Another Muslim VS Non-Muslim thread ? Boring :bored: :bored:

Thalia, generaliztion is not wise. Tell me out of 7 million Muslims in USA plus 1 million Muslims in Canada, how many of them are causing trouble to their country ? And support your claim with crime statistics etc. please ? :mmhmm: Yes I admit there are few Muslim individuals who are culprits to the society ( and I condemn them ) , but every community has culprits on the own. But the way you describe Muslim immigrants is as if they are all criminals :mmhmm:

You don't need an awful lot of people.

If my memory serves me correctly 19 muslim gentlemen pretty much fekkup up the world around 7 years ago.

In this thread, Westerners are trying to find negativities on Muslims while Muslims are trying to find negativities on West. Boring boring.. :bored:

Only Threadlike, Minerva, Marianna, and Jaadore are participiting in healthy debate.

So then you're a glutton for punishment ?

Why they heck don't you just ignore this thread.. which you promised to do ?

I'm not exactly sure of where the 'most' fits in here or at least what you mean by it...
I know quite a HUGE number of Muslims in the UK and in Canda (through my cousins there) and they're all working people. All pay their taxes.
Just cause you have the entire media sitting and waiting for the next Muslim asking a man next to her to move to another seat, does not entirely imply that 'most' Muslims are big troublemakers.

As I said, these are your countries.
If you want, you can get them out easily. In wudjab's book, that'd be all Muslims, the productive and unproductive, even people like Dr. Ahmad Zewail out of Caltech, since they're 'likely to be a hassle in the future'.
I'm not talking about media. I'm talking about people who live in britain and who are witness to how life is there.


I can TELL you that many maltese people try getting out of paying taxes. See. Because I live here.

Another Muslim VS Non-Muslim thread ? Boring :bored: :bored:

Thalia, generaliztion is not wise. Tell me out of 7 million Muslims in USA plus 1 million Muslims in Canada, how many of them are causing trouble to their country ? And support your claim with crime statistics etc. please ? :mmhmm: Yes I admit there are few Muslim individuals who are culprits to the society ( and I condemn them ) , but every community has culprits on the own. But the way you describe Muslim immigrants is as if they are all criminals :mmhmm:
I focused on Britain because I happen to know more about the phenomena there..

I don't claim to be any sort of expert on American/Canadian immigration trends and related crime thanks to some msn conversation with 2.5 people from that area. :cute:

How bout you kick out all the Muslims from your countries...
Then have a fun time finding others who'll drive your cabs, run your shops, pack your shopping, serve your food and get your taxes.

Is that like the Muslim chapter of Fight Club? :p

I'm not talking about media. I'm talking about people who live in britain and who are witness to how life is there.


I can TELL you that many maltese people try getting out of paying taxes. See. Because I live here.
it's in our papers everyday.

You don't need an awful lot of people.

If my memory serves me correctly 19 muslim gentlemen pretty much fekkup up the world around 7 years ago.

What's your proof that these 19 gentlemen were the mastermind ? Because that is what Bush told you ?

Then how the statement by this MIT Engineer ? This is not from a big liar called Bush but from a very professional person who graduated from MIT.

The truth of 9/11

llloooooooollll or LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

But, what wudjab is saying is the same exact thing. Enough of this shit. About time we put our foot down on the people who have a problem living here and tell them to fek off out of our home.

Thank you for recognising and agreeing that this need does exist.

oh and LOOOOL.

LOOL seriosly this juss funny now!!!!

PLZ don't die on us & Maintain urself, & Like I said.
U guys can complain all u want, still aint gonna change shit!
THATS NOT THE ONLY THING wudjab is saying, him and his other agenda ;)
Oh and good luck telling them to Fek off.. THEY'll Do u guys just right actually ;) Lool



So then you're a glutton for punishment ?

Why they heck don't you just ignore this thread.. which you promised to do ?

WHYYYYYYYY. I think this thread needs more of him actually..
Keeep em commin .. and LOTS OF IT too ;)

wooowz ! I reely enjyd ur lst post !

PLZ dnt StOp. U R NTRTNG uS.

Loool !

I focused on Britain because I happen to know more about the phenomena there..


1) Just because dozens Muslims had caused trouble the whole 3 million Muslims in Brit get your blame ?

2) In Brit, what is the crime rate for Muslim residents relative to others ? Prove that first and I will agree with your statement.

LOOL seriosly this juss funny now!!!!

PLZ don't die on us & Maintain urself, & Like I said.
U guys can complain all u want, still aint gonna change shit!
THATS NOT THE ONLY THING wudjab is saying, him and his other agenda ;)
Oh and good luck telling them to Fek off.. THEY'll Do u guys just right actually ;) Lool





WHYYYYYYYY. I think this thread needs more of him actually..
Keeep em commin .. and LOTS OF IT too ;)Slowly but surely (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,556144,00.html) ... change shit!

Or did you not read that?

I didn't know there were that many Christian Iraqis

Is that like the Muslim chapter of Fight Club? :p

Well, kinda sounds like it once I read that post again...
Except that there's no Muslim threatening to cut your balls :hyper:

Slowly but surely (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,556144,00.html) ... change shit!

Or did you not read that?


Ahaaa.. Lol

Were all gonna slowly but surely change Everything! ;p

Your wish is my commandment.

The Fraser Institute, a prominent think tank that advises the Canadian Government released this report last week..

"Limit Muslims' access to Canada.."

Large influxes of Muslims, the failure to integrate foreigners and an overrun immigration system make Canada a "threat to North American security."

These are some of the findings published in a new book by the right-wing Fraser Institute called Immigration Policy and the Terrorist Threat in Canada and the United States.

The book says Muslims, as a group of potential immigrants, should be given limited access to Canada.

"It would be prudent, from a security point of view, for Canada to review its immigration policy in relation to the admission of immigrants from Muslim countries that are known to produce terrorists," the book says.

Co-author James Bissett, a former head of the Canadian Immigration Service, says Canada needs to better screen potential immigrants from Islamic countries to ensure they are non-violent and respect "Western values".


"We should be more careful about accepting people who are not going to be happy living in a secular society, with a separation of church and state," Bissett said.

Immigrants need to be happy in a society "where men and women are treated equally, and gay marriage is permitted," he said.

The Canadian Islamic Congress responded immediately to the arguments in the book.

"This is a racist argument and doesn't stand academic and rigorous research," said congress spokesman Mohamed Elmasry. "Canadian Muslims contribute to the wealth of this country more than the average and have higher levels of education than the average."

The book also argues that by allowing in large numbers of Muslims -- the authors estimate Canada's Muslim population was 700,000 in 2006, up from just over 250,000 in 1991 -- Canada has created sub-societies that do not integrate and shelter extremists.

"By failing to require Muslim immigrants to adapt and abide by Western values, the West does face the unravelling of values and political culture that make a free society," the books says.

The Fraser Institute calls for a review of immigration policy, especially the refugee and asylum system. The book says Canada's immigration backlog is so badly managed that it encourages foreigners to claim asylum and then overstay their entry visas.

Janet Dench, the executive director of the Canadian Council for Refugees, says the arguments are flawed because Canada -- unlike many other countries, including the U.K. and U.S. -- knows exactly how many illegal immigrants are living within its borders.

"What we see here is an anti-refugee way of thinking that is being retooled as a security oriented argument," said Dench.

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2008/05/22/5634156-sun.html

Straw.. meet Camel's back.

I am not for the accepting of the gay marriage thing but do understand the concept of looking at any immigrant willing to accept living in a secular society. That is the key for anyone coming into a different land is that they come in understanding how things are in the host nation.

The bottom line should be that anyone, no matter the religion or where they originate from HAVE to participate in society by becoming productive citizens in some manner. Working, going to college etc...not become a drain. Again I emphasize any religion, any ethnicity. I don't blanket people. What makes me mad is people coming here wanting to live off of the social welfare AND they complain about their host nation. THAT makes me rabid mad in more ways than one.

I feel...don't like it here...find somewhere else to live. I don't care if you are Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Christian, Harry Kreshna, whatever....if you have an issue of living with the rules of my country find another one.

1) Just because dozens Muslims had caused trouble the whole 3 million Muslims in Brit get your blame ?

2) In Brit, what is the crime rate for Muslim residents relative to others ? Prove that first and I will agree with your statement.
lol

how naive!

I've got roughly 40,000 posts scattered around the www. I'm no rookie in forums and I can spot a time waster from a mile away.

Who said I blame 19 saudis in USA for the lazy immigrant muslims in britains? OR the hate preachers in britain?

Do you have access to youtube in Kuala lumpur? :hmm:

Do a little search and satisfy your curiosity. Learn something too while you're at it.

I have more important things and people to attend to. Good day/night.

Ahaaa.. Lol

Were all gonna slowly but surely change Everything! ;p
that's not very nice.
we don't want to change anything in your esteemed countries,. in fact, not many of us choose to move there permanently. and those who do, don't expect things to move their way, but respect your ways.
you come to our countries, respect us please, because can be quite short tempered people.

And Thalia I got 50,000+ posts in entire www.
Lets see what you posted.



But look at second generation immigrants. Just look at how cocky they're all getting. Staging protests in the streets of the country that took them in, and spreading hatred AGAINST that sam country that let them in...

1) What kind of protests did they participate in ? Weren't they caused by somebody insulted their community or their faith ? I heard many protests and riots in the UK, Italy and the rest of Europe among workers demanding higher pay and better working conditions. Are they criminals too ? Isn't democracy allow protests to get their rights ?

2) Who is spreading hatred against that sam country ? I only knew a few individuals. Yesterday I read an article in IHT about Malika an al-Qaeda operative in Belgium spreading hatred against the West. May she rot in hell. But how about others ? You clearly described the whole 2nd generation immigrants as how cocky they are. Are they barbaric like Malika ?


most are actually a financial burden ON the social sector where a muslim man will have 4 wives, 8 children each wife and get the government to pay for their housing, food, health, schooling etc.

Tell me how many Muslim men have more than 1 wife ? In Malaysia, the rate is 0.03% of the total marriage. Most of Muslim-majority countries like Egypt, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Brunei, etc have almost the similar rate.



The silly, the stupid, the drunk, the corrupt, the extremists, the fundementalist .. muslims... are a problem to us ALL.

All Scientist must be fundamentalists in the field of Science. All Doctors must be fundamentalist in the field of medicine, if not they can't be called doctor. Similarly, all Muslims must be fundamentalist in Islam.

Before good people such as yourself realise this, you and others will never learn to disassociate yourselves from the rotten apples of your society or group, and therefore will just keep on sweeping the problem under the carpet and turning a blind eye.. even making excuses for them. (I'm not saying you do, just for argument's sake).

So rotten apples only exist in Muslim communities ? Rotten apples exist in your community too. It also exist in Marianna's community, in my community, in Threadlike's community. So why always Muslims get your blame ?



Self criticism is a HUGE HUGE problem for many many muslims, unfortunately.

That is true, but that is also true for almost everybody, including YOUR people.

no dear, we critcise ourselves daily, we don't sweep problems under the carpet. and yes, modern day muslims have a lot to answer for in countries like the Uk. do you read the papers?
btw..they (people like abu hamza and omar bakri in the uk) are even criticised by the british council of muslims for giving a bad name. too bad they have many followers.
muslims don't only get the blame, they get the blame because they use their religion as an excuse to terrorise others. and they do a disservice to any muslim neighbour who's an asset to the rest of society.

Ah but until you get Buddhists blowing up shit, flying airplanes into office buildings, smuggling bombs in their shoes on airplanes, blowing up trains in London, Madrid and Bombay, planning to blow up planes over the Atlantic with liqiuid bombs, trying to use Nail bombs (as in London last week).. shall I go on... then we can start blaming the Buddhists.

But as of now, it's not them.

And Thalia I got 50,000+ posts in entire www.
Lets see what you posted.



1) What kind of protests did they participate in ? Weren't they caused by somebody insulted their community or their faith ? I heard many protests and riots in the UK, Italy and the rest of Europe among workers demanding higher pay and better working conditions. Are they criminals too ? Isn't democracy allow protests to get their rights ?

2) Who is spreading hatred against that sam country ? I only knew a few individuals. Yesterday I read an article in IHT about Malika an al-Qaeda operative in Belgium spreading hatred against the West. May she rot in hell. But how about others ? You clearly described the whole 2nd generation immigrants as how cocky they are. Are they barbaric like Malika ?


.

Tell me how many Muslim men have more than 1 wife ? In Malaysia, the rate is 0.03% of the total marriage. Most of Muslim-majority countries like Egypt, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Brunei, etc have almost the similar rate.





All Scientist must be fundamentalists in the field of Science. All Doctors must be fundamentalist in the field of medicine, if not they can't be called doctor. Similarly, all Muslims must be fundamentalist in Islam.



So rotten apples only exist in Muslim communities ? Rotten apples exist in your community too. It also exist in Marianna's community, in my community, in Threadlike's community. So why always Muslims get your blame ?





That is true, but that is also true for almost everybody, including YOUR people.


I think there's a lot of truth in what you are saying. And personally, I am all in favor of Muslim immigration to my country.

But: suppose Oman for instance decided to try to cut back on the number of Westerners living there because it was causing trouble for traditional Islamic values. People see Westerners drinking, carrying on sexually, etc.

You could say it was a bad decision. But could you really say it was downright evil?

Could you really dispose of the question by saying, "Oh, there are a few bad eggs in every bunch?"

I think there's another side to the question. I don't agree with that side, but I don't think it's worthless.

redacted... redacted...

no dear, we critcise ourselves daily,

Aha if that what you mean, then most of Muslims criticize emselves too.

we don't sweep problems under the carpet. and yes, modern day muslims have a lot to answer for in countries like the Uk.

Modern-day Muslims ? Like me ? If there is a bomb blast in London, people like me have to take the blame ? The super vast majority of Muslims condemn such violence carried by unknown individuals who came out from nowhere with Islamic slogan. If I made a mistake, I would criticize my own self too !

do you read the papers?
btw..they (people like abu hamza and omar bakri in the uk) are even criticised by the british council of muslims for giving a bad name.

Haa.. now you see- Muslim authorities criticize their own people. So don't ever say you did but Muslims din't !


muslims don't only get the blame, they get the blame because they use their religion as an excuse to terrorise others. .

Including me ? Including muslims like BraIki, Threadlike, Lym, Pygmalion, STING, etc ? Have we ever terrorized others minerva ?

What does " a Muslim" means ? A Muslim is a person who submits him/herself to Islam. Being born into a Muslim parent doesn't mean you're automatically a Muslim. These idiot terrorists came out from nowhere with Islamic slogan while carrying Unislamic action.

Lets say there is a bomber from Country A with intention to bomb his own Embassy in country B. But this guy had his shirt painted full of Maltese flag and shouted Maltese slogan when he threw the bomb into the Embassy.

And international community all blamed Malta and Maltese government for this guy's action and Malta got reputation as a terrorist nests . Is this fair ?:mmhmm: :mmhmm:

no it's not fair, but you can't blame people to think so. don't worry the maltese have a lot to answer for as well. but the rest of the maltese don't condone them. i guess with muslims, all those who are 'good' need to shout out a bit louder.

Attention

Let me post this again, so that everybody could understand how Muslims , the true Muslims all over the word are the victim of something they never commit:

Read carefully:

Lets say there is a bomber from Country A with intention to bomb his own Embassy in country B. But this guy had his shirt painted full of Maltese flag and shouted Maltese slogan when he threw the bomb into the Embassy.

And international community all blamed Malta and Maltese government for this guy's action and Malta got reputation as a terrorist nests . Is this fair ?

You guys should stop blaming (true) Muslims for something they never ever commited, because the culprits who terrorize your countries were carrying Islamic slogan but in fact, they are never Muslims at all.

You see minerva & Thalia ? That's the reason why I'm sick of Islam-bashing, Western-bashing bla bla. The same Bush is misleading the world to think as if his decision is the decision of American public, these terrorists and culprits are misleading the world to think as if what they did is representative of Muslim people.

I've traveled to more than 30 countries. I have stayed with British family, American family, Arab family, Bangladeshi family, Thai famili(es), Japanese family, and Nigerian family in my life. I have more non-Muslim friends than Muslim ones. Believe me, most of whatever stereotypes we heard about Muslims or about West or kuffar are totally wrong . Only a couple of those stereotypes are correct, but they are not significant enough to cause anything bad to the society :yes:



Minerva, Thalia, & Marianna,

I know your intention is good- to see a peaceful and progressive world ;) Try to make a lot of Muslim friends. I guarantee you will finally find Muslims among the friendliest, the most soft-spoken and the kindest people you will ever met ;)

Minerva, Thalia & Marianna,

Do keep us posted on how that goes.

Attention

Let me post this again, so that everybody could understand how Muslims , the true Muslims all over the word are the victim of something they never commit:

Read carefully:



You guys should stop blaming (true) Muslims for something they never ever commited, because the culprits who terrorize your countries were carrying Islamic slogan but in fact, they are never Muslims at all.

You see minerva & Thalia ? That's the reason why I'm sick of Islam-bashing, Western-bashing bla bla. The same Bush is misleading the world to think as if his decision is the decision of American public, these terrorists and culprits are misleading the world to think as if what they did is representative of Muslim people.


Minerva, Thalia, & Marianna,

I know your intention is good- to see a peaceful and progressive world ;) Try to make a lot of Muslim friends. I guarantee you will finally find Muslims among the friendliest, the most soft-spoken and the kindest people you will ever met ;)I could have stopped after the first paragraph but peep ... we've been through all that ... these guys are not REAL muslims crap a hundred times. Yea they are muslim. Bad muslims but keep defending them by saying ... they arent muslims.

And your victim status is ... bunko

Aha if that what you mean, then most of Muslims criticize emselves too.




HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
:hyper:

Here. Pull the other one.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
:hyper:

Here. Pull the other one.I aint goin to pull your finger!

oh you talkin to peep ... yea pull her finger peep :hyper:

Minerva, Thalia & Marianna,

Do keep us posted on how that goes.
Yes. I just might get rid of the muslim husband I DO have and get myself another one. Just to test the waters once again.

rofl


Tboy, give me a break. I don't live on the moon, although sometimes I damn wish I did.

ok so if they aren't real muslims..then shop them out. don't bring excuses for them.

in malta muslim refugees are saved from death everyday. the thank you we get? they make knives out of chicken bones and out of the beds we give them to sleep on.
they leave milk given free from our taxes to stale and throw it in the face of their carers.
the urinate over the door handles, so when the carers open their doors to give them food, their hands are stunk with urine
they cause crime and riots. they got given a huge house with all the facilities they never heard of before, and they trash it the next day. money down the drain.
see, these claim to be muslims. what should other people think of them?

I aint goin to pull your finger!

oh you talkin to peep ... yea pull her finger peep :hyper:
Oh come on.. you know I'll be nice to you...

...and ask you to pull the other too. :D

I always get you more, Jack. :hyper:

Yes. I just might get rid of the muslim husband I DO have and get myself another one. Just to test the waters once again.

rofl


Tboy, give me a break. I don't live on the moon, although sometimes I damn wish I did.

Just because of one Libyan man in your life you painted the bad picture of the whole Muslims

You don't need to "lecture" me about who Muslims are :yes: I have been surrounded by Muslims from day 1 in my life up till now. And you don't need to " lecture" me about how fantastic Westerners or non-Muslims are, I had been surrounded by non-Muslims in my entire life :yes:

ok so if they aren't real muslims..then shop them out. don't bring excuses for them.

in malta muslim refugees are saved from death everyday. the thank you we get? they make knives out of chicken bones and out of the beds we give them to sleep on.
they leave milk given free from our taxes to stale and throw it in the face of their carers.
the urinate over the door handles, so when the carers open their doors to give them food, their hands are stunk with urine
they cause crime and riots. they got given a huge house with all the facilities they never heard of before, and they trash it the next day. money down the drain.
see, these claim to be muslims. what should other people think of them?
have to spread them reps.. well said minerva

Didn't you know that its a terrible sin to pronounce judgement on another muslim and say he's not a real muslim ?

As far as I know, that right lies with Allah alone.

Does your name start with A ?

Just because of one Libyan man in your life you painted the bad picture of the whole Muslims

You don't need to "lecture" me about who Muslims are :yes: I have been surrounded by Muslims from day 1 in my life up till now. And you don't need to " lecture" me about how fantastic Westerners or non-Muslims are, I had been surrounded by non-Muslims in my entire life :yes:
Rofl.

oh look. a marriage councellor.

If I judged the whole muslim ummah based on one man, I'd be .. pretty darn ignorant.

Don't offend my intelligence please.

fyi trekker...thalia has travelled too...

ok so if they aren't real muslims..then shop them out. don't bring excuses for them.

in malta muslim refugees are saved from death everyday. the thank you we get? they make knives out of chicken bones and out of the beds we give them to sleep on.
they leave milk given free from our taxes to stale and throw it in the face of their carers.

the urinate over the door handles, so when the carers open their doors to give them food, their hands are stunk with urine
they cause crime and riots. they got given a huge house with all the facilities they never heard of before, and they trash it the next day. money down the drain.



Why don't you just close your doors to them ? Like what I said anybody can pretend to be a Malta citizen to bomb the Embassy when he is actually not,
the same is true about Muslims. Do you believe there are 1.2 billion Muslims in this world ? Majority of them are Muslim by name only, just like this bomber. Only a very small fraction of them are true Muslims, who practices their faith accordingly .

Do you know in Islamic law, a person who kills another will get death sentense ? A person who steals gets his hands cut ? You see how Islam cares about social peace and harmony ? But are those people in Malta comply with it ?

What can true practising Muslims do to correct their own people when their tyrant government and media are controlled by idiot Muslim-by-name ( but Unislamic ) people ?

^ we can't close our doors to them because we are bound to save them if they are in a boat in our waters. that's how it is. hopefully not for long, but what country lets a boatful of men (mostly) pregnant women (they get pregnant before they leave the country) and babies sink? we pick them up, give them shelter and hope they thank us in return. so far, little thanks have come by from these people.

Just because of one Libyan man in your life you painted the bad picture of the whole Muslims

You don't need to "lecture" me about who Muslims are :yes: I have been surrounded by Muslims from day 1 in my life up till now. And you don't need to " lecture" me about how fantastic Westerners or non-Muslims are, I had been surrounded by non-Muslims in my entire life :yes:

I think you don't need to bring personal and familial issues into this.

I agree that there are many wonderful Muslims. My general picture of Muslims from those I have met is excellent.

But there are a significant minority of bad ones who are bad PRECISELY BECAUSE of their understanding of their religion.

That's why people like Sheikh Hamza can say, "We Muslims have a problem with terrorism." You do. It's a serious problem. And it's widespread.

We Westerners have a serious problem with immodesty and selfish individualism. It's not all of us. But it's enough of us that it's true to generalize and say we have this problem.

You guys have a different problem. Not all of you. But a significant number of you. And it's reasonable for people to generalize.

And blaming Bush for 9/11 doesn't help your argument. All you have to do is read something like the Wikipedia article on "9/11 conspiracy theories" to find endless links to authorititive sources debunking all these nonsensical ideas.

If you want a good, relatively short place to begin, here's one, a now-famous article in Popular Mechanics based on interviews with numerous scientists:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

There are Muslims in the world--or people who aren't Muslims but read the Quran, pray in mosques five times a day, revere the Prophet Mohammed if you like--that preach violence in the name of their religion and act on it. And they have a very large following.

When someone as universally admired as Dr. Naik praises bin Laden for doing nothing but following the Quran, you know there's a problem.

I am very glad that many Muslims oppose them. And I think more and more Muslims are coming to oppose them. But they are there and they are not insignificant.

That doesn't mean that you can't stay in my house if you come to America: You're welcome to! And it doesn't mean I don't love my Muslim neighbors: I do!

It's only one part of a very big picture about Muslims which has a lot of very good things in it too.

But it's a problem. And it has to be faced.

fyi trekker...thalia has travelled too...
no no. Don't mention that. Or he might have to accept that there might be a remote chance that I don't form opinions over half a dozen illicit internet msn conversations.

Rofl.

oh look. a marriage councellor.

If I judged the whole muslim ummah based on one man, I'd be .. pretty darn ignorant.

Don't offend my intelligence please.

If you want to know what a Muslim is, look at the Quran :yes:
No need to shout on negativities of Muslims.

From your posts in this thread, ( i'm sorry but ) you're treating the whole Muslims as criminals - Muslims are all bad while Westeners are all good.

Generalizing is not wise, Thalia :yes:

Sooner or later, in the none muslim countries, the law will change to suit the muslim citizens in these countries. This is because these muslim citizens are already dominating some areas just like the root of a tree.

Matter of time.

If you want to know what a Muslim is, look at the Quran :yes:
No need to shout on negativities of Muslims.

From your posts in this thread, ( i'm sorry but ) you're treating the whole Muslims as criminals - Muslims are all bad while Westeners are all good.

Generalizing is not wise, Thalia :yes:

I don't agree.

If people meet a lot of drunk Catholics and read a lot of newspaper stories about priests that molest children, you are likely to have a bad opinion of Catholics based on generalization. And you might start to wonder if there is something wrong with our religion.

How can I blame you? Your bad opinion is our fault!

We need to criticize ourselves first and not complain that you are generalizing.

I think you don't need to bring personal and familial issues into this.

I agree that there are many wonderful Muslims. My general picture of Muslims from those I have met is excellent.

But there are a significant minority of bad ones who are bad PRECISELY BECAUSE of their understanding of their religion.

That's why people like Sheikh Hamza can say, "We Muslims have a problem with terrorism." You do. It's a serious problem. And it's widespread.

We Westerners have a serious problem with immodesty and selfish individualism. It's not all of us. But it's enough of us that it's true to generalize and say we have this problem.

You guys have a different problem. Not all of you. But a significant number of you. And it's reasonable for people to generalize.

And blaming Bush for 9/11 doesn't help your argument. All you have to do is read something like the Wikipedia article on "9/11 conspiracy theories" to find endless links to authorititive sources debunking all these nonsensical ideas.

If you want a good, relatively short place to begin, here's one, a now-famous article in Popular Mechanics based on interviews with numerous scientists:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

There are Muslims in the world--or people who aren't Muslims but read the Quran, pray in mosques five times a day, revere the Prophet Mohammed if you like--that preach violence in the name of their religion and act on it. And they have a very large following.

When someone as universally admired as Dr. Naik praises bin Laden for doing nothing but following the Quran, you know there's a problem.

I am very glad that many Muslims oppose them. And I think more and more Muslims are coming to oppose them. But they are there and they are not insignificant.

That doesn't mean that you can't stay in my house if you come to America: You're welcome to! And it doesn't mean I don't love my Muslim neighbors: I do!

It's only one part of a very big picture about Muslims which has a lot of very good things in it too.

But it's a problem. And it has to be faced.

Jeff, misunderstanding here. Dr Naik has never said Osama bin Laden a good man. Never.

What does " a Muslim " means ? A Muslim, who practices Islam heartily, will never cause terrorism. A Muslim will never kill innocent people because Quran says a big no to it. A Muslim will never be racist or hostile towards other societies because Quran teaches us to know each other from different backgrounds.

So who are those terrorists ? Who are those killers ? Who are those bombers ? Are they Muslims ? :no:

That's why I hate extreme Islam-bashing or extreme Western-bashing that is going on in this thread. This is childish and stupid. :yes:

What I found here in this thread is everybody ( except for you, Threadlike, Marianna, Minerva, & Jaadore ) is highlighting the bad about other groups and only the good things about their own people. They only see black and white, when the reality is grey. And they act as if they are righteous, when the reality is they are extremely narrow-minded indeed :yes:

If you want to know what a Muslim is, look at the Quran :yes:
No need to shout on negativities of Muslims.

From your posts in this thread, ( i'm sorry but ) you're treating the whole Muslims as criminals - Muslims are all bad while Westeners are all good.

Generalizing is not wise, Thalia :yes:
The quran does not show me what a muslim is.

The Quran shows me what Islam is.

Big big difference. Or so I keep getting told.

I don't agree.

If people meet a lot of drunk Catholics and read a lot of newspaper stories about priests that molest children, you are likely to have a bad opinion of Catholics based on generalization. And you might start to wonder if there is something wrong with our religion.

How can I blame you? Your bad opinion is our fault!

We need to criticize ourselves first and not complain that you are generalizing.

That's the reason why we need to look at the Scriptures or the Source of each religion to understand it :yes:

Anybody can shout " I am an American !" to draw attention in public when he is actually not .

Similarly, anybody can shout " I am a Muslim ! " , yes there are 1.2 billion people who shout they are Muslims, but how many of them are real Muslims, who practices their religion accordingly ? :yes:

That's the reason why we need to look at the Scriptures or the Source of each religion to understand it :yes:

Anybody can shout " I am an American !" to draw attention in public when he is actually not .

Similarly, anybody can shout " I am a Muslim ! " , yes there are 1.2 billion people who shout they are Muslims, but how many of them are real Muslims, who practices their religion accordingly ? :yes:

Well, I think that's partly true. But it's not enough.

And the way people interpret scriptures is different.

You can go argue with many intelligent Muslims who say bin Laden's approach is right. And then there are others who have a completely different interpretation.

But I think it is natural to judge the influence of a religion--good or bad--from its followers.

You want people if they see Muslims doing good to say, "See! Islam encourages them to be modest, chaste, dignified", etc., right? You want them to attribute good behavior to the religion, right?

Well then, people will be likely to attribute bad behavior to the religion too.

What you have to do is persuade people about your religion.

We Catholics have to persuade people about priests by punishing them harshly, by making sure to stress their responsibility by educating them, by taking responsibility and doing penance. Not be criticizing people who get the wrong impression.

And if someone sets off a bomb on a bus saying "Allahu akbar!" and other people get a bad impression of Islam, you should be saying to the bomber and his friends, "How dare you! You are dragging our religion in the mud! Who can blame people if they put "Islam" and "bomb" together!"

You shouldn't be criticizing those who come to what you say is the wrong conclusion.

The quran does not show me what a muslim is.

The Quran shows me what Islam is.

Big big difference. Or so I keep getting told.

Muslim and Islam came from the same root. A Muslim is a person who practices Islam.

Since a Muslim is a person who practices Islam, can a person be called Muslim if he kills an innocent person ?:no: Islam prohibits killing.

Can a person be called Muslim if he is abusive towards his wife ? :no: Islam condemns violence in family

Can a person be called a Muslim if she treats her maids as slaves ? :no: Islam condemns treating others badly

Now you see, among the approximately 1.2 billion people in this world who call their own self as Muslims, only how many of them are Muslims ? Only a very small fraction yes ? :yes:

No.. what you mean to say is.. they are not the kind of muslims you would like representing YOUR brand of islam.

But, whether you like it or not, those types of muslims represent a brand of Islam that many many other muslims can identify with.

Now, if these guys are not muslims, wtf are they doing preaching in a mosque??!!!

bad bad clip

World_Trekker,
We are stuck with the 'bad Muslims'.
The scripture of our religion does not allow us to label someone as a non-Muslim, an unbeliever or a kaffir unless that someone clearly and explicitly denies the belief in the one God being Allah SWT and Mohammed PBUH being his final prophet. So we don't have the authority of labeling Muslims as unbelievers or kaffirs simply because that is Allah's authority, and not ours.

However, can we condemn the acts they do, the people they are, can we say that whatever they do in the name of Islam goes against many ideologies of Islam that we know and that it seems more the work of an unbeliever than a true Muslim? We certainly can. I can condemn Bin Ladin's actions, anybody who wants to kill innocent people in the name of my religion, however, I'm simply not allowed and will not call Osama bin Ladin a kaffir unless he clearly states that he does not believe in Allah or his prophet PBUH.

Well, I think that's partly true. But it's not enough.

And the way people interpret scriptures is different.

You can go argue with many intelligent Muslims who say bin Laden's approach is right. And then there are others who have a completely different interpretation.

I don't care if any " intelligent Muslims " say Osama bin Laden is right.
Islam says no to taking any innocent lives. I don't know who is Osama bin Laden, I've never met him before, so I cannot judge him . If his intention is to kill innocent non-Muslim people, then he is automatically not a true Muslim, because Islam says no to it. :yes:

But I think it is natural to judge the influence of a religion--good or bad--from its followers.

You want people if they see Muslims doing good to say, "See! Islam encourages them to be modest, chaste, dignified", etc., right? You want them to attribute good behavior to the religion, right?

Wrong.

Hitler a Christian has killed 6 million Jews ( report says ), should I draw a conclusion that Christianity is bad ?

To find out what Christianity is, we must look at the Source of Christianity :yes: Anybody can shout they are Christians but really are they ? :no:

Similarly, anybody can shout they are Muslims but are they ? :no:
To find out what Islam is, we must look at the source of Islam - Quran and Sunnah :yes:

Easy.




And if someone sets off a bomb on a bus saying "Allahu akbar!" and other people get a bad impression of Islam, you should be saying to the bomber and his friends, "How dare you! You are dragging our religion in the mud! Who can blame people if they put "Islam" and "bomb" together!"

Right after 9/11, the number of people in US who became Muslims increased 4 folds.

It goes the opposite way to your claim :yes:

Thalia, for how many times should I tell you go and read the Quran. Stop judging Islam from these bogus preachers, please. Anybody can call himself as preachers. Anybody can call himself as Muslim when he is actually not.

If women are "deficient" in Islam, then why almost 2/3 of the new converts in USA are made up of women ?

Think :yes:

Thalia, for how many times should I tell you go and read the Quran. Stop judging Islam from these bogus preachers, please. Anybody can call himself as preachers. Anybody can call himself as Muslim when he is actually not.

If women are "deficient" in Islam, then why almost 2/3 of the new converts in USA are made up of women ?

Think :yes:
Ok.

I thought.

And came to the conclusion (years ago) that there are more female converts in everywhere to islam because (and here comes all that rocket science stuff) .. because 100% more non-muslim women marry muslims rather than non-muslim men do.

So, out of 100 non muslim men and 100 non muslim women, you can potentially end up with 100 non muslim men who never marry or get that kind of chance to mix with muslims and 100 women who marry and mix with muslims.

Hmm..

This could be a tough one.

^Hey bobble head, where's the evidence that conversions increased "4 fold"?

Threadlike & amo | oman, better leave this thread because this thread is going nowhere, the real intention of this thread is not to promote healthy discussion, but to express hatred and to show the world that Muslims are criminals

I have noticed that too

World_Trekker,
We are stuck with the 'bad Muslims'.
The scripture of our religion does not allow us to label someone as a non-Muslim, an unbeliever or a kaffir unless that someone clearly and explicitly denies the belief in the one God being Allah SWT and Mohammed PBUH being his final prophet. So we don't have the authority of labeling Muslims as unbelievers or kaffirs simply because that is Allah's authority, and not ours.

That's true, Threadlike. We have no authority to label anybody as non-Muslim or unbeliever, however if we compare what Islam is ( from Quran and Sunnah ) to the attitude and way of life of the 1.2 billion people who shout they are Muslims .......if a "preacher" could say women are deficient and can be hit by men... hmm...what kinda preacher is this ? Definitely ... you got the answer. :yes:

However, can we condemn the acts they do, the people they are, can we say that whatever they do in the name of Islam goes against many ideologies of Islam that we know and that it seems more the work of an unbeliever than a true Muslim? We certainly can. I can condemn Bin Ladin's actions, anybody who wants to kill innocent people in the name of my religion, however, I'm simply not allowed and will not call Osama bin Ladin a kaffir unless he clearly states that he does not believe in Allah or his prophet PBUH.

I condemn any aggression and violence made by anybody from East to West.

The very stupid thing is when some people in this thread are condemning violence and keep highlighting badly on other societies but keep silent about their own. This is selfish and arrogant :no: As if there is nothing positive they can praise about those people :no: Extremely immatured and childish.

But of course, not you Threadlike , you're a great and a very balanced poster in English Sabla ;) Keep it up !

I don't care if any " intelligent Muslims " say Osama bin Laden is right.
Islam says no to taking any innocent lives. I don't know who is Osama bin Laden, I've never met him before, so I cannot judge him . If his intention is to kill innocent non-Muslim people, then he is automatically not a true Muslim, because Islam says no to it. :yes:



Wrong.

Hitler a Christian has killed 6 million Jews ( report says ), should I draw a conclusion that Christianity is bad ?

To find out what Christianity is, we must look at the Source of Christianity :yes: Anybody can shout they are Christians but really are they ? :no:

Similarly, anybody can shout they are Muslims but are they ? :no:
To find out what Islam is, we must look at the source of Islam - Quran and Sunnah :yes:

Easy.






Right after 9/11, the number of people in US who became Muslims increased 4 folds.

It goes the opposite way to your claim :yes:
We're not looking for what islam is.

Stop drinking the crazy juice and pay attention here.

You wanted me to look at the Quran and BY the Quran, judge who is a muslim and who is not. We never mentioned ISLAM itself, but MUSLIMS. Or how PEOPLE we call MUSLIMS live their lives according to THEIR understanding, as they have been taught and as they believe and are allowed to continue believing ISLAM.

No on is disputing the Quran here. We all know what's in it. :)

What the dispute is about is how muslims are not managing or wanting to integrate into western society because they are finding that their religious values (according to the quran) clashes with the way of life one follows in the west in order to integrate. Refer to Wudjab's previous list here.


So we are simply saying. "Ok. You have a problem living in my country and my society according to the rules that we've had for years, the rules that were in place when you decided to come. We acknowledge your problem, but we refuse to change our systems to accomodate YOU and create a problem and prejudice for the rest of us. So, please, if integrating into my society clashes with your values, then just stay at home. Save both you and I a big big headache and stay in your country. Where pork is banned. Where alcohol is banned. Where no women show skin and inconvenience the men and where no gays exist. (LOL)."

Fair enough I think!

^Hey bobble head, where's the evidence that conversions increased "4 fold"?
It's ok to throw numbers into the air if you have MSN. :yes:

Ok.

I thought.

And came to the conclusion (years ago) that there are more female converts in everywhere to islam because (and here comes all that rocket science stuff) .. because 100% more non-muslim women marry muslims rather than non-muslim men do.

So, out of 100 non muslim men and 100 non muslim women, you can potentially end up with 100 non muslim men who never marry or get that kind of chance to mix with muslims and 100 women who marry and mix with muslims.

Hmm..

This could be a tough one.

Wrong, this is an easy one. How would a women accept a Muslim husband if she has be Muslim ? The answer is easy : because Islam uplifts the standard of women. Most of the women like this one accept Islam not because of their marriage, but because they found something in Islam :yes: : Islam in USA

In USA, the ratio of female to male converts are 4:1 , here is the case in Hawaii. Women there didn't find Islam by marriage , but because they found something special about Islam :yes:


More in Hawai'i turn to Islam
by Honolulu Advertizer

• Muslim women say head cover is liberating


By Mary Kaye Ritz
Advertiser Religion Writer

Less than three weeks after terrorists struck New York City and Washington, Heather Ramaha stood among a group of women at the mosque in Manoa and recited the shahada in Arabic:


Heather Ramaha, a Navy petty officer, is among those in Hawai'i who have converted to Islam since Sept. 11.
Bruce Asato • The Honolulu Advertiser

"Ash-hadu alla illaha illa Allah. Wa-ash-hadu anna Mohamadan rassulu Allah."

She was testifying that "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah (one true God), and Mohammed is a prophet of God."

By doing so, she became a convert to the Islamic faith, extending a recent national trend.

Some Muslim clerics across the country say they are seeing a fourfold increase in conversions since Sept. 11, when stories about Islam jumped from the back pages of the religion section to front pages worldwide.

Hakim Ouansafi, the president of the Muslim Association of Hawai'i, said that prior to Sept. 11, there had been an average of three converts per month.

In the two months since then, there have been 23.

And oddly enough for a religion that is often perceived as one that cloaks its women from head to foot, the newly converted Westerners tend to be female. Ouansafi said the national ratio of converts is 4-to-1, women to men. Here, he said, it's closer to 2-to-1.

Most Mainland converts are African-Americans, who make up about a third of U.S. Muslims, some of whom found Allah while they were in jail or in recovery from drug or alcohol addiction.

On the West Coast, the men are mainly military, said Ouansafi, and most of the O'ahu converts are former Christians. One's even a single cosmetics saleswoman.

More people are looking into his religion and liking what they see, he says, despite the relentless media coverage of Muslim terrorists.

"Know you find bad people in every religion, and that religion should not be judged by that extreme minority," he said.

One thing Sept. 11 did was remind people that life is too short: "If I'm going to die, I want die a Muslim," a convert told Ouansafi.

Cromwell Crawford, chairman of the religion department at the University of Hawai'i-Manoa, echoed that: The effect of Sept. 11 on the national psyche made all Americans aware of the transience of life.

He described the mood of the country as changing: Singles seek to bond; family members hang together more tightly; and, by extension, the nation's people reach out to one another.

"People are turning to religion both in the institutional sense and in noninstitutional ways," Crawford said, adding that the fallout also is benefiting other religions besides Islam.

Why overwhelmingly women?

"In the expression of this mood, women are moved more readily and more deeply than men," he said. "Go to any church and you'll find more women than men."

He also finds the female students in his classes often show greater insight into ethical issues.

"Women are the more religious of the genders for various reasons," Crawford said. "... Women give birth and so they are in touch with the life process, caretakers of the life cycle by virtue of their biology."

Converting — or "reverting," as Muslims call it since they believe everyone starts life as a Muslim — does not take much besides a sincere belief there is one God, and only one God.

"We believe, as Muslims, once a person reverts to Muslim, all his past sins are forgiven by God," Ouansafi said. "Starts just like a baby that was born."

The conversion ceremony itself is fairly simple, he said. A convert tells of the converting of his or her own free will; then explains the five tenets of faith.

For the ceremony, two witnesses watch as a convert agrees that Jesus was among the great prophets (Ibrahim/Abraham, Mohammed and Moses are among the others), but not God, then speak the same two sentences that Heather Ramaha recited.

Now, Ramaha is incorporating her Islamic faith into her life as a Navy petty officer stationed at Pearl Harbor since July. She doesn't wear her hejab to work as a dental hygienist, but she does wear her head covering when attending services at the mosque. While her husband, a Marine, was away recently, she couldn't quite recite the five daily prayers, all said in Arabic, without his help.

But Ouansafi said the Islamic faith is supposed to be practiced to the best of one's abilities: It's forbidden in the Quran, for example, for pregnant people, travelers and people with diabetes to fast at Ramadan, if fasting means harming oneself.

On a recent Friday — the Islamic equavalent of the weekly Sabbath — Ouansafi spoke at the prayer services about the role of women in Islam, and talked at length in an interview at his office with his wife, Michele Ouansafi, herself a convert, about what draws women to a faith some have called oppressive.

Women are revered in their faith, the Ouansafis said. The wearing of the hejab is for a women's own protection — they are away from the lascivious looks of men. The women pray in different rooms and behind the men so as not to be a distraction when worshippers kneel and place their foreheads to the floor.

"Women are in back because we are the stronger of the two," said Michele Ouansafi with a laugh.

And all the major texts of religions — the Bible, the Torah, the Gospels — "in the Quran, women have more rights," her husband said.

He noted that in the Quran ("the word of God, descended directly on the prophet through Gabriel," said Ouansafi), Eve and Adam were equally at fault for leaving the Garden of Eden. Eve wasn't the seductress. Many of the passages in the Quran are gender-neutral.

And, in Islam, Ouansafi said, the money a man makes goes for the family. The money a woman makes is hers, he said. Women are not obligated to work.

The first femini