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Reluctant
27-05-08, 03:12 AM
As salaamu aleykum, I have a question about the Ibadi stance toward rajm for zanis (stoning to death for married adulterers). I am a new revert to Islam and although I believe that the Qur'an is from Allah and that Muhammad (PBUH) is his messenger, I still have a few lingering questions about some aspects of the relationship between the Qur'an and sunnah. I first learned about Ibadi Muslims a few months ago and since then have been doing some research about them, however, material in English is difficult to find. There is one question that I have been thinking about for a while that I was hoping a knowledgeable Ibadi could help me with.

The Qur'an states:

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. 24:2

It does not make a distinction between married people (muhsan) and unmarried people (ghair muhsan). Sunnis believe that this verse is only applicable to unmarried people, whereas married people who commit zina must be stoned. Furthermore, they believe that there used to be an ayat about stoning in the Qur'an, but that it has been abrogated from its recitation (naskh al-tilawah, laa fil hukm). Obviously it is very difficult to rationalize that there is an ayat that has been taken out of the Qur'an, yet its ruling still applies, while there are abrogated laws in the Qur'an, but still remain in it, much less with something as important as killing someone!

The evidence for this is in Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." Book #82, Hadith #816

In Sahih Muslim it says:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession. Book #17, Hadith #4194

So, Sunnis believe that there used to be a verse about stoning in the Qur'an that was recited, however, it was taken out of the recitation, yet its ruling still applies. I had read hints on a few websites that traditional Ibadhi scholars rejected this ruling and believed that 100 lashings, as stipulated in 24:2, applies to both married and unmarried adulterers. I thought that this was very interesting and that I had finally found a complete and rational form of Islam. It is not that I object to the punishment, but the logic behind the fact that there is an ayat that was revealed, but not in the Qur'an, yet its ruling still applies, does not rationally sit well with me. Unfortunately, however, I read an article recently by Yahya Ali Muammar entitled "Ibadhism: A Moderate Sect of Islam," in which he affirms that Ibadhis do believe in stoning, just like the Sunnis. I do not know whether this is a new Ibadhi stance which has been propagated solely in modern times to try to distance themselves from what outsides believe is their Khawarij past and align themselves closer with Sunnis, or if this is indeed the classical scholarly opinion in Ibadhi jurisprudence.

If anyone could please shed some light on this issue it would be much appreciated. Thank you!

As salaamu aleykum.

Diabian
27-05-08, 03:31 AM
I don't think many can help u with such an unusual question... but if speak arabic, then I would go to omania2.net

Arabian Princess
27-05-08, 08:39 AM
I requested a friend to ask about this issue .. I hope I would be able to help you out in it.

um albanin
27-05-08, 09:21 AM
Dear Baa7ith.

Ibadhies didnt disagree with stonning. The only disagreement is that the punishment is not due to Kufr Milla (infidality) instead its due to kufr Ni3ma i.e as a punishment of a big sin.

There is no verses in Quran says about stoning but in Ibadhi we have in our hadeeth book narrated by jabir bin zaid from abu-ubayda says that :
فقد روي الحافظ الحجَّة الإمام الربيع في صحيحه عن الإمام جابر بن زيد: (الاستنجاء والاختتان والوتر والرجم سننٌ واجبة)
Washing the private areas , Circumcision , Witr prayer & stonning is a sunna Wajiba

Plus the storries:

We all know that , few or limited Islamic stories during the prophet time & even after his time talk about stonning . i.e it happened rarely. even though we know that time zina happened..so why?

The lady who was stonned came to the prophet for punishment , what he did was to send her away, he asked her to go & wait for her due time. she then came back after delivery , he again sent her & told her to wait till she finishes breastfeeding for 2 yrs, again she came back, mind you she was never called , its herself wanted the punishement. then when she came again she was stonned.

Another story is that a man came to the prophet & said that he commited adultry, the prophet ignored him , he again mensioned it & he said it 4 times.Then he asked him, are you creazy? he said no. then asked him are you married he said yes then the prophet stonned him.
ومن الأدلة ما أخرجه البخاري عن جابر رضي الله عنه: :أن رجلاً من أسلم أتى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو في المسجد فقال: إنه قد زنى فأعرض عنه فتنحى لشقه الذي أعرض فشهد على نفسه أربع شهادات فدعاه فقال هل بك جنون؟ هل أحصنت؟ قال نعم فأمر به أن يرجم بالمصلى فلما أذلقته الحجارة جمز حتى أدرك بالحرة فقتل. وأخرج البخاري عن الشعبي لحديث علي رضي الله عنه حين رجم المرأة يوم الجمعة وقال: قد رجمتها بسنة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم.

what do we learn??

To be punished you have to fulfill the requirements:
1. Either there are 4 witnesses who saw the actual act ( penis inside the vagine) ???? when will it ever happen?.

2. the person him/herself admited & insisted that helshe has done zina . (Only when he /she is mentally alrigh)t.

This left us with a very limited times where stonning is applicable. Because those who commit adultry will not do it infront anyone let allone infront of 4 men???
even pregnancy is not sufficient to stone. because she even can be rapped??

Rules (7add) are made to straighten our life not just for the sake of punishment or done for revenge.

Reluctant
27-05-08, 10:48 AM
Thank you very much for both of your replies, JazakAllah khairan. I downloaded Tartib al-Musnad (Musnad Rabi ibn Habib) from http://www.istiqama.net/. It's very interesting, but my Arabic isn't very good, so it's hard to understand some of them. :) Thank you all very much, I look forward to talking more. :)

Guwantanamist
14-09-08, 12:39 PM
baa7ith,

Just out of curiosity I came across your profile & saw this thread. :)

As to your question, Ibhadis do believe in stonning. They have been applying it till very recently.
However, the main difference between the Ibhadies & Sunnis in this matter, is that Ibhadies do not believe that there was a verse in the Quran & was later on taken out of recitation. To them, the ruling came from the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed, and since it came in more than one way, or it has come by practice from generation to generation, then it is enough evidence for this ruling.

Yes, there are some new thoughts, within the Ibhadi sector, that is trying to prove that this ruling was never made by the prophet. These however are a small minority & came up lately with new (weird) ideas.

Reluctant
14-09-08, 12:42 PM
Ah I thought about this thread today, thank you Guwantanamist...that's the drift I've been getting too. I just can't reason with naskh al-tilawah. :-/

QuEeN
14-09-08, 12:48 PM
um albanin is that a 7adeeth 9a7ee7??? because we all know that allah '3afoor ra7eem and would accept any1 who's sinned and admitted they're wrong and they're sorry..and the man came to the prophet which means he was sorry for what he did..am sorry it just sounded weird

um albanin
17-09-08, 12:17 PM
According to all sects , Alrajm is sunna sa7ee7a: this is from our sect:

يقول الشيخ نور الدين السالمي في شرح الجامع الصحيح عن الرجم : وهو سنة مجمع عليها وحكي عن الخوارج والنظام وأصحابه من المعتزلة إنكاره ، ولا مستند لهم إلا أنه لم يذكر في القرآن وهذا باطل فقد ثبت بالسنة المتواترة . (14)

ومنه ما ثبت بسنة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم القولية والفعلية وهو الرجم للزاني المحصن وهذا التشديد في الزنا لما فيه من الخطورة والفحش فهو من أسباب وأد النسل وانقراض كما أنه سبب لتفكك الأسر وتصدع المجتمع واضمحلال المدنية، فهو يعود بالإنسان إلى حالة يكون فيها أشبه بالبهيمة العجماء ومن هنا لم يكتف الإسلام بما فرضه من عقوبة على الزنا نفسه أن يعمل كعملهم والتشديد على المحصن لفحش جريمتهسماحة الشيخ أحمد بن حمد الخليلي


Al7udood:

Istighfaar , regret & not going back to the sin is only enough when the sin is commited without the public knowlage. soon as there are 4 wittness or admitting by the person him/herself (no difference between man & female) there &add is a must.
«إذا بليتم فاستتروا »

، وليس الحد الذي يعاقب به الزاني من الأمور الهينة، فلا يقام إلا بصحة شرعية إما باعتراف الزاني على نفسه بالزنا مرارا أمام الحاكم الشرعي مع ثبوت سلامة عقله وهدوء باله بحيث لا يحوم حول قراره ريب وإما بشهادة أربعة عدول يشهدون أمام الحاكم الشرعي بأنهم رأوا عملية الزنا بين المتزانيين في منتهى الوضوح والانكشاف بحيث رأوا دخول الآلة في الآلة كدخول الميل في المكحلة وإن قصرت الشهادة عن هذا العدد أو هذا الوصف اعتبر الشهود قذفة يستحقون حد القاذف. سماحة الشيخ أحمد بن حمد الخليلي



يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى ۖ الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالْأُنْثَىٰ بِالْأُنْثَىٰ ۚ فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاءٌ إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ۗ ذَٰلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ ۗ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَىٰ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (178) وَلَكُمْ فِي الْقِصَاصِ حَيَاةٌ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ (179)
178] O you who believe! Al-Qisâs (the Law of Equality in punishment) is prescribed for you in case of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if the killer is forgiven by the brother (or the relatives, etc.) of the killed against blood-money, then adhering to it with fairness and payment of the blood-money, to the heir should be made in fairness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. So after this whoever transgresses the limits (i.e. kills the killer after taking the blood-money), he shall have a painful torment. 179] And there is (a saving of) life for you in Al-Qisâs (the Law of Equality in punishment), O men of understanding, that you may become Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).



الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِنْهُمَا مِائَةَ جَلْدَةٍ ۖ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۖ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (2)
2] The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime, but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law).

وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُوا أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاءً بِمَا كَسَبَا نَكَالًا مِنَ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ (38)
38] And (as for) the male thief and the female, cut off (from the wrist joint) their (right) hand as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allâh. And Allâh is All-Powerful, All-Wise.


Any one can play with Istighfaar card & say am sorry then the community will be corrupted & be in chaos. Jusr look at swisserland & see how the population there respect the common laws. they are very strict.