An eight-year-old girl strapped with explosives has blown up and killed an Iraqi army captain.

The bomb was detonated by remote control, injuring four soldiers in addition to the one who died, an Iraqi Army spokesman said.

Local authorities imposed a curfew in the area and American troops launched a search for those responsible.

US soldiers confirmed that a young girl was involved in the attack, which took place near Youssifiyah, south of the capital, Baghdad.

The horrific bombing came as Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki flew to Mosul to take charge of a major offensive against al Qaeda.

The US military says the northern city is the terror group's last major urban stronghold in Iraq.

Military officials hope the offensive will deliver a knockout blow.

Sunni Islamist al Qaeda gunmen have regrouped in Mosul and the surrounding province of Nineveh after being pushed out of Baghdad and western Anbar province by US and Iraqi forces.

Moqtada al Sadr's opposition movement struck a deal the ruling Shi'ite alliance to end running battles in Baghdad, although sporadic clashes keep breaking out.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1316058,00.html

If dropping a puppy from a great height is barbaric, what does that make this?

This is really sad, thanks to America

And to the people who strapped a bomb on an innocent child really El Rey if one is to blame blame it on everyone involved not just one side. ANYone who does such a vile thing as taking an innocent and doing something like this is sick in the head and I hope when they die burn in hell.

It must be so easy to be someone like El Ray - I mean you can always blame everything on someone else.

Women suicide bombers have gone up. Now this ... yep the freedom fighters are a great success.

And to the people who strapped a bomb on an innocent child really El Rey if one is to blame blame it on everyone involved not just one side. ANYone who does such a vile thing as taking an innocent and doing something like this is sick in the head and I hope when they die burn in hell.

Exactly, those who strap kids to explode themselves are cruel but most cruel is the one who caused those people to do what they are doing now which is America,

It must be so easy to be someone like El Ray - I mean you can always blame everything on someone else.

First, my nick is El Rey not El Ray, you keep red repping and complaining to Mods about me mis-spelling your nick and you miss spell mine in purpose. An act I won't comment on.

Back to the topic: What do you mean by blaming someone else? When do you think Iraqis started doing this ? Did they do what they are doing now, before the US invade Iraq ? What does this tell you ?

For god's sake get your priorities right.
whoever is in war does not put their kids in the front line, let alone strap them with bombs.

I feel for that child. To die such a horrible horrible death. No matter how we rant and rave did the parents know about this? If they want to make a statement by God strap themselves to this bomb. How can an 8 year old know how to think clearly? They are just out of diapers. I muddle on my own child and wonder how it would be to strap a bomb on her...just unfathomable to this mother.

Sad just sad.

This is really sad, thanks to America

It's ok.

We understand now why so many people in the Middle East blame America for the actions of people in the Middle East.

It's too hard to admit otherwise.

It's ok. We are here for you and we want to help.

Now lets hold up a minute. This girl is 8 but if she had her first period Islamically she is an adult ready for marriage and ready to defend the ummah.

Right El Rey ... ;)

Another Innocent Victim As A Result Of A Stupid Lie And An Arrogant Nation Which Still Cant Decide To Stop The Bloodshed.

Now lets hold up a minute. This girl is 8 but if she had her first period Islamically she is an adult ready for marriage and ready to defend the ummah.

Right El Rey ... ;)

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A SICK PERSON LIKE YOU .. MAKING JOKES OF THE TRAGIC EVENTS IN IRAQ ! EIGHT YEARS OLD FOR GOD SAKE PAID HER LIFE BECAUSE YOUR STUPID PRESIDENT LIED. SHAME ON YOU. :angry:

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A SICK PERSON LIKE YOU .. MAKING JOKES OF THE TRAGIC EVENTS IN IRAQ ! EIGHT YEARS OLD FOR GOD SAKE PAID HER LIFE BECAUSE YOUR STUPID PRESIDENT LIED. SHAME ON YOU. :angry:

Originally Posted by jack
Now lets hold up a minute. This girl is 8 but if she had her first period Islamically she is an adult ready for marriage and ready to defend the ummah.No this is no joke Sandy ... as you well know.

Now which part is the sick part?

It's ok.

We understand now why so many people in the Middle East blame America for the actions of people in the Middle East.

It's too hard to admit otherwise.

It's ok. We are here for you and we want to help.

Good you understand now. And it took your country around half a million dead Iraqi to 'help them'. Seem you're helping lots of people.

Now lets hold up a minute. This girl is 8 but if she had her first period Islamically she is an adult ready for marriage and ready to defend the ummah.

Right El Rey ... ;)

No it means Christians strap Muslim kids and explode them so it appears Iraqi muslims did it which give them the opporunity to make more fuss between muslims and thus take their time digging for Iraqi oil.

No it means Christians strap Muslim kids and explode them so it appears Iraq muslims did it which give them the opporunity to make more fuss between muslims and thus take their time digging for Iraqi oil.

ooooooooooook this thread just took a weird turn :XD:

And to the people who strapped a bomb on an innocent child really El Rey if one is to blame blame it on everyone involved not just one side. ANYone who does such a vile thing as taking an innocent and doing something like this is sick in the head and I hope when they die burn in hell.

BLAME THE PEOPLE WHO INVADED HER COUNTRY FIRST . BLAME THE PEOPLE WHO USED ALL THE BOMBS AND MISSILES AND LATEST KILLING TECHNOLOGY TO ATTACK A PEACEFUL COUNTRY WHICH NEVER HARMED AMERICANS AND KILLED ITS WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND ELDERLY .. BURN IN HELL WHO EVER INVOLVED IN THIS DIRTY WAR .. BURN IN HELL ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORTED IT AND PAID FOR IT. SHAME ON YOU AMERICA .. SHAME ON YOU.

ooooooooooook this thread just took a weird turn :XD:

LOL I know :p
Am just speaking his language, the one he understands

This is disgusting. Nothing justifies the wilful sacrfice of a small child. An against an Iraqi too...just a man trying to bring order to the country. Shame. Shame. Shame.

No this is no joke Sandy ... as you well know.

Now which part is the sick part?

INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE OF YOUR GOVERNMENTS STUPID POLICIES AND YOUR HERE TALKING CRAB AND JOKING .. I DONT KNOW IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN OR NOT .. BUT JUST LOOK IN THEIR EYE AND IMAGINE THE EIGHT YEAR OLD IRAQI GIRL .

^ this girl was no suicide bomber.
she was strapped with bombs and told to go to an area and she didn't pull out the fuse thing herself, it was all done by remote control.
now that is low.
she was only a pawn. couldn't the remote control handler have gone himself instead of using a little girl!!!???

INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE OF YOUR GOVERNMENTS STUPID POLICIES AND YOUR HERE TALKING CRAB AND JOKING .. I DONT KNOW IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN OR NOT .. BUT JUST LOOK IN THEIR EYE AND IMAGINE THE EIGHT YEAR OLD IRAQI GIRL .Yes i try to imagine that everytime i see an old man marry a child and Islam sanctions it because she has had her first period.

Exactly, those who strap kids to explode themselves are cruel but most cruel is the one who caused those people to do what they are doing now which is America,



First, my nick is El Rey not El Ray, you keep red repping and complaining to Mods about me mis-spelling your nick and you miss spell mine in purpose. An act I won't comment on.

Back to the topic: What do you mean by blaming someone else? When do you think Iraqis started doing this ? Did they do what they are doing now, before the US invade Iraq ? What does this tell you ?

Well you haven't stopped misspelling my nick.. and the mods haven't done anything, so I wouldn't cry too much if I were you.

But now that you point out that its Rey not Ray I'll keep that in mind.

Back to the topic, some iraqis took a child, wired her with explosives and then remotely detonated them... and somehow it's the fault of the US.

It makes perfect sense.. after all, if you were to actually take responsibility for your actions you might actually have to do something... so it's much easier to pin the blame on someone else.

Bloody hell...someone's going to get a wedgie and have their lunch money stolen in a minute. How many eight year olds are in this thread now?! :yuk:

WoW! This is so SHOCKING and SAD! I can't believe a Human Being would actually go this far?!?!?!?!

^she was only a pawn. couldn't the remote control handler have gone himself instead of using a little girl!!!???

I totally agree with you...but again...this whole suicide bombing thing should really stop. Especially the one's that have no purpose of being done....and the sad thing is, innocent people are the one's that die...and not the bad! :(

Never cared less

^yeps, i'm sure you understood what i meant.....like if someone wanted to cause havoc, why oh why get an innocent girl who probably didn't know she was on her way to her death. barbarians.

This is disgusting. Nothing justifies the wilful sacrfice of a small child. An against an Iraqi too...just a man trying to bring order to the country. Shame. Shame. Shame.

No one is going to notice this comment because it makes too much sense.

So I'll notice...

No one is going to notice this comment because it makes too much sense.

So I'll notice...
Jeff, i noticed it too and repped him for it. One of the few that didn't wear the political tinted glasses.

Well you haven't stopped misspelling my nick.. and the mods haven't done anything, so I wouldn't cry too much if I were you.

But now that you point out that its Rey not Ray I'll keep that in mind.

Back to the topic, some iraqis took a child, wired her with explosives and then remotely detonated them... and somehow it's the fault of the US.

It makes perfect sense.. after all, if you were to actually take responsibility for your actions you might actually have to do something... so it's much easier to pin the blame on someone else.

You are the one who cried about it not me. Anyway. first of all I blamed the two sides not only the US in case you didn't read my previous post just scroll up. Second, Do you have any proof that Iraqis did this ? Maybe the Americans themselves ? They used to kill civilians there so it won't harm killing another child indirectly. You just need to opne your eyes wider to see from more than one angel cos it seems you are explaining things from a very narrow angel.

We all noticed it.. but we find the attitude that tries to pin the blame somewhere else more shocking.

You are the one who cried about it not me. Anyway. first of all I blamed the two sides not only the US in case you didn't read my previous post just scroll up. Second, Do you have any proof that Iraqis did this ? Maybe the Americans themselves ? They used to kill civilians there so it won't harm killing another child indirectly. You just need to opne your eyes wider to see from more than one angel cos it seems you are explaining things from a very narrow angel.

You're losing your magic touch El-REy.

This is really sad, thanks to America

Because in your very first post, you apparently forgot to blame anyone apart from the US.

And I explained that short sentence in here.

Exactly, those who strap kids to explode themselves are cruel but most cruel is the one who caused those people to do what they are doing now which is America,

.

So ye, it's so sad those people got desperate to do this ( If they really did )and yes thanks to america. And you still haven't answered my question.

So ye, it's so sad those people got desperate to do this ( If they really did )and yes thanks to america. And you still haven't answered my question.


Ok, America makes some people so angry that they will do horrible things.

Ok. Fine. We understand.

But that still does not excuse sending a child on a suicide mission to kill an Iraqi officer who is trying to stabilize the country.

Of course it's not an excuse, as I said it's cruel. But why it's so hard for you to admit that the US plays a major role in this ?

it's so sad those people got desperate to do this

Those poor guys who rigged up a girl as a bomb, so sad for them. They're the real victims here, let's all express our sympathy for them like El Rey.

But why it's so hard for you to admit that the US plays a major role in this ?

Well President Bush opened Pandora's box by removing Saddam.

But blaming Bush and the US or wanting US Troops to withdraw from Iraq will not make these things stop.

So that's what I don't get about your position?

Don't you want it to stop?

Those poor guys who rigged up a girl as a bomb, so sad for them. They're the real victims here, let's all express our sympathy for them like El Rey.

Yah, very kind of you to understand their agony. But wait, maybe this is not an Iraqi action. It may be American

Well President Bush opened Pandora's box by removing Saddam.

But blaming Bush and the US or wanting US Troops to withdraw from Iraq will not make these things stop.

So that's what I don't get about your position?

Don't you want it to stop?

Sure, your country starts distruction then keeps blaming others. Of course I want it to stop but will it ?

19 Arab-Muslims started the "destruction" when they crashed jets into office buildings killing 3000 of my countrymen.

^^^ None of them were Iraqis. So what does Iraq have to do with it?

The suicide girl was not American, so what does America have to do with it?

El Rey is implying that if Bush had not toppled Saddam then this 8 year old Iraqi girl would not have become a suicide bomber targetting her fellow Iraqis.

And I am reminding him that if 9/11 had not happened then Bush would not have removed Saddam in the first place.

But Iraq has got nothing to do with 9/11, it was about the weapons of mass destruction remember (which incidentaly they never found)?

Anyway, she isn't 8, she's around 16 ... they changed the news.

But Iraq has got nothing to do with 9/11, it was about the weapons of mass destruction remember (which incidentaly they never found)?

Anyway, she isn't 8, she's around 16 ... they changed the news.

Well, this subject seems almost more impossible for even reasonable people to discuss than religion.

But I would love to hear someone with your brilliant intelligence and lawyerly ability to see both sides of the case explain properly why America went to war with Iraq after 9/11.

At the time of the invasion of Iraq, one poll (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm) in the Washington Posts showed that 70% of Americans believed Saddam was personally involved in the 9/11 attack. Some other interesting poll data on this and related "misconceptions" can be found here (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php?nid=).

It's a ridiculous fallacy of course, but nevertheless the two things aren't entirely unrelated: The unprecedented sense of vulnerability (paranoia?) in the US after September 2001 definitely influenced attitudes of the Bush administration in dealing with other potential threats to "US global security interests". I mentioned this in passing, in Jeff's "War" thread...

I just think that America's argument of anticipatory self-defence was weak (to begin with, it was not justified and in fact illegal under international law), they still never found the weapons of mass destruction and they created total anarchy and chaos in Iraq.

I just think that America's argument of anticipatory self-defence was weak I agree

(to begin with, it was not justified and in fact illegal under international law) "In fact" is a bold statement...that debate will run and run, and several dozen countries' legal advisers said it was legal under Chapter VII authority deriving through previous resolutions. But many others agree with you. My personal view is that it was not "illegal" per se, but the point was that a new resolution giving specific authority was never sought - because it would not have passed - therefore illegal or not, it could not be described as the will of the international community either.

they still never found the weapons of mass destruction Not strictly true - some were found, but so dated and in such small quantities, that it seems likely the regime had lost all record of them.

The fact that Saddam once had WMD was never in question. And Hans Blix knew exactly what he was saying when he reported that Iraq had still not given "full, final and complete disclosure" of what it had done with them - although with the benefit of hindsight he made a big show of telling the press that he had never believed such weapons remained. It was America's gun, but Blix still knowingly squeezed the trigger.

Even some countries that opposed the invasion, such as France and Germany, still suspected that the WMD had not been entirely destroyed. They just didn't approve of this way of dealing with it.

In the end, all were wrong: Iraq's WMD capability had essentially been removed. But it's hard to prove a negative, which was UNSCOM's remit.


and they created total anarchy and chaos in Iraq.

Yep, I'll certainly give you that one. That's my real complaint about Iraq. I'm still ambivalent about the invasion, but what has happened since is largely a result of the hubris and crass incompetence of the Coalition Provisional Authority.

But when it comes to suicide bombings and cars exploding in market places, a lot of people can share the blame:

Top of the list for me are all those countries, Syria at the top, who allowed and even encouraged non-Iraqis to enter that country and fight everyone and everything. Suicide bombings were not an Iraqi creation, they were imported from other Arab countries.

And next on the list to take the blame, in my opinion, are the regional media and even people on this forum, who applauded the spilling of Iraqi blood just because America's failure is more important to them than Iraq's sucess.

I agree

"In fact" is a bold statement...that debate will run and run, and several dozen countries' legal advisers said it was legal under Chapter VII authority deriving through previous resolutions. But many others agree with you. My personal view is that it was not "illegal" per se, but the point was that a new resolution giving specific authority was never sought - because it would not have passed - therefore illegal or not, it could not be described as the will of the international community either.

Not strictly true - some were found, but so dated and in such small quantities, that it seems likely the regime had lost all record of them.

The fact that Saddam once had WMD was never in question. And Hans Blix knew exactly what he was saying when he reported that Iraq had still not given "full, final and complete disclosure" of what it had done with them - although with the benefit of hindsight he made a big show of telling the press that he had never believed such weapons remained. It was America's gun, but Blix still knowingly squeezed the trigger.

Even some countries that opposed the invasion, such as France and Germany, still suspected that the WMD had not been entirely destroyed. They just didn't approve of this way of dealing with it.

In the end, all were wrong: Iraq's WMD capability had essentially been removed. But it's hard to prove a negative, which was UNSCOM's remit.



(I just wanted to throw this in for outsiders)

Whatever the case is, the threat was not imminent, which is a necessary requirement for the use of force. This is maybe why Bush bypassed the UN since it would not authorise the use of force at the time most convenient to America. Experts believed that Saddam Hussein was still at least three years away from having a deliverable nuclear weapon, that Iraq was weakened by years of sanctions, no weapons of mass destruction have been uncovered in Iraq. As one commentator notes, “assertions that Saddam Hussein possessed arsenals of weapon of mass destruction posing an international threat were false” (per Cassidy - the references are from my law books). Therefore, even if some people believed that the war was legal, this evidence was not sufficient to disarm and depose him relying on the customary international law doctrine of anticipatory self-defence.

On the contrary, that was exactly the justification: Iraq had once had the weapons, and the 1991 conflict ended with a ceasefire agreement on condition of their monitored desctruction. The inspectors tasked with that reported non-cooperation. Finally in January 2003, the latest head of those inspectors (Blix) reported to the UN that they could still not say for certain that the weapons had been destroyed. Therefore those countries invoked the existing Chapter VII authority. But no new authority was sought. Whether a new and specific authority was necessary nobody has ever been able to agree, because the law on it is simply not specific enough. But morally, I'd agree with you - not for legal reasons, but because that specific action was not the consensus of the UN Security Council.

It's all very well to say that the "assertions that Saddam had WMD" were false, but that was only demonstrated conclusively after the invasion, not before it. The word is perjorative too: "false" implies deceit, and yet even opponents of the invasion believed it. "Erroneous" is probably more accurate.

^^^ So do you think the land of the free should start bombing every country that has WMDs? That it should broadly interpret the doctrine of anticipatory self-defence and create anarchy and uncertainty?

Read more thoroughly, you're a lawyer remember :p The legal arguments are...well...arguments, i.e. not "fact". But I said I agree with you, morally.

One interesting analogy on the issue of legal use of force though: The attacks on Serbia in protection of independence-seeking Kosovo, were definitely illegal: There was no threat to those who intervened, no Chapter VII authority authorising intervention, and no other UN Member State under attack. Not so many complaints about that though...well...except from the Serbs and the Russians...

Her mommy daddy shud keep an eye on her.

Lol why blame USA for this, blame those abusive fighters who strapped da bomb on her body !

I know everybody is wrong, however, for an eight year old girl to have to strap herself to kill her enemies??!?This just reached a new low and a new level of desperation against the Americans. What the hell are they doing that is so bad that an 8 year old had to strap herself with explosives?

Maybe that is something everybody needs to think about it.

It's an interesting discussion, sophis and mimosa.

I understand the Arab feelings on this matter. But I think the feelings are so strong that they tend to make it impossible for them to see that there might be another side to the story, even if they don't agree.

But to really understand an opponent, you have to--well--UNDERSTAND him.

Part of the case for intervention that was not particularly well developed by the Bush administration but was assumed in all the discussions of the matter was the fact that this was really not an independent conflict at all, but rather Stage Three of a conflict that began with the "First" Gulf War.

That war "ended" with what was essentially a conditional cease fire and the conditions of the cease fire were not met by Saddam Hussein. That's why we had those sanctions which sapped the economy and infrastructure of Iraq over the years...and were hated and condemned by the same people who hate and condemn the present conflict.

Furthermore, the conflict simmered on after Saddam killed tens of thousands of Shia in the south and drove hundreds of thousands of Kurds from their homes in the North resulting in the "no fly zones". Our planes policing those zones were fired on continually and were continually striking the radar systems and emplacements that were firing on them.

In other words, Bush's "New War" wasn't a new war at all. It was a stage in a long-running conflict that had never been completely settled...because Saddam Hussein refused to settle it.

All during those years, people were saying, "What are we going to do about the Saddam problem?" and no one had an adequate answer.

I think after 9/11, it simply brought into focus what would eventually have had to come into focus anyway: we need to bite the bullet and solve the problem.

To look at it, in other words, as George Bush waking up one morning and making up a story about weapons of mass destruction so he could invade Iraq out of the blue is just not what happened.

I know everybody is wrong, however, for an eight year old girl to have to strap herself to kill her enemies??!?This just reached a new low and a new level of desperation against the Americans. What the hell are they doing that is so bad that an 8 year old had to strap herself with explosives?

Maybe that is something everybody needs to think about it.

What makes you think that people in Baghdad feel that this is an act of "fighting Americans" or that they sympathize with it at all?

What makes you think that people in Baghdad don't feel that this is an attack on them?

Almost all of these bombers attack Iraqis and many of them attack markets, schoolchildren, etc.

All Iraqis. Not Americans.

The original article didn't make it clear, but this was an attack on the Iraqi Army, LYM, not on American soldiers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/gc05/idUSYAT46111020080514

There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in that army fighting against militias in places like Basra and Sadr City. And hundreds of thousands of Iraqi police all across the country. Iraqis trying to stablize their country.

Who is supporting them? Well, the religious leader of the Shia in Iraq, Sistani, for one. He says that the militias have to lay down their arms and that the government must have a monopoly of force.

The ambassador of Iran to Iraq, who supported the action of the government to reestablish control in Basra, for example. He pointed out that no government can allow militias to simply roam around enforcing their will at the point of a gun.

In fact, what is happening is that the Iraqi government is trying to restore order in Iraq...this is the American "withdrawal" if you like proceeding in slow motion. The last big fights in Iraq seem to be shaping up right now in Mosul (against al-Qaeda remnants) and in Sadr City, Baghdad (against elements of the Sadrist Militia).

But the fact that Iraqis voted for that government and that these are Iraqi soldiers and policemen doesn't faze some people: since American troops are there, they must be "Persians" or else "traitors" or else "puppets". It's okay to kill them. They are just "Americans Lite".

And all this happened since Americans invaded Iraq? wise move in opening a bottle of worms :rolleyes:

Yes i try to imagine that everytime i see an old man marry a child and Islam sanctions it because she has had her first period.

I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU JACK ! WHEN EVER YOU DONT HAVE ANSWERS YOU JUMP TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT ! BY THE WAY .. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE AMERICAN HOLY MAN WHO MARRIED 30 OR SO UNDERAGE GIRLS AND MAKE THEM PREGNANT !?

Her mommy daddy shud keep an eye on her.

Lol why blame USA for this, blame those abusive fighters who strapped da bomb on her body !

AMERICAN CANDIES FOR IRAQI CHILDERN DROP FROM THE SKY
C L U S T E R B O M B S

AMERICAN FIREWORKS LIGHT THE SKY OVER IRAQI CHILDREN
D E P L E T E D U R A N I U M

THANKS AMERICA FOR UR LOVELY GIFTS

^ The decision of strapping a bomb on a child was not made by 'America'.

"You strapped a bomb on a child!"

"Well they made me angry!"

:no:

I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU JACK ! WHEN EVER YOU DONT HAVE ANSWERS YOU JUMP TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT ! BY THE WAY .. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE AMERICAN HOLY MAN WHO MARRIED 30 OR SO UNDERAGE GIRLS AND MAKE THEM PREGNANT !?

He got arrested ?
Because it is illegal ?
Because you don't find even a significant minority approving this behaviour ?

And all this happened since Americans invaded Iraq? wise move in opening a bottle of worms :rolleyes:

Well, that's a reasonable argument.

But let me point out just that it's a DIFFERENT argument...

I am perfectly willing to concede that it MIGHT have been FOOLISH to invade Iraq (because of unintended consequences of messing in someone else's society) if you are willing to concede that it MIGHT NOT have been WICKED to invade Iraq in order to remove one of the world's worst tyrants who had threatened and attacked not only his own people but his neighbors too.

Do you remember the "first war"? After the invasion of Kuwait?

You might be too young, but let me tell you a scene that was etched in my memory ever since then.

Our troops had invaded Iraq but we had stopped short of entering populated areas. The Shia in Basra rose in revolt against Saddam.

But because we were playing careful geopolitics, we didn't lift a finger when Saddam responded by moving in tanks and killing thousands of them indiscriminately.

Some fighters from Basra approached our military lines. "Brothers! Help us! Give us weapons! Anything! They are killing us!"

We did NOTHING. And I remember talking to Shia from Iraq that arrived as refugees afterward here in the US. They HATED America. But what they hated about us was not that we had invaded Iraq or fought "their President".

What they hated about us was that we had stood by and let Saddam crush them again instead of going all the way and removing him.

So, LYM, I felt GUILTY. GUILTY, you understand?

GUILTY of letting these people down and delivering them back to the rule of one of the bloodiest tyrants on the face of the earth...for geopolitical reasons.

And ASHAMED.

Like you might feel if you stood by and watched a friend get raped because the rapist's father might get mad at you and not buy stuff from your business any more.

That's why *I* was in favor of invading Iraq and removing Saddam all along, all through the years before W. finally took action.

And my feeling when he did was AT LONG, LONG LAST!

Was I wrong? Maybe I was. We can argue about it.

But what I don't concede was that there is only one possible way of looking at it and that those who favored the invasion were simply bloodthirsty and looking for conquest.

^The world's greatest tyrant is out now.
So...
Time for an exit, pretty soon?






I thought so.

Personally I just hope the US Government will focus on fixing our own inner workings, economics, health care etc....and just let other countries deal with their own crap and if a country decides to invade a "weaker" nation then let countries in ****that**** region deal with the $hit. Tired of this country of mine being the World Policeman and giving away money. Just keep it in the borders. Period.

So, LYM, I felt GUILTY. GUILTY, you understand?

GUILTY of letting these people down and delivering them back to the rule of one of the bloodiest tyrants on the face of the earth...for geopolitical reasons.

And ASHAMED.

Like you might feel if you stood by and watched a friend get raped because the rapist's father might get mad at you and not buy stuff from your business any more.

That's why *I* was in favor of invading Iraq and removing Saddam all along, all through the years before W. finally took action.



So Jeff, how do you feel about the American soldiers who torture and rape Iraqis? You know for example, the Abu Ghraib prison.

What's the difference between Saddam's men killing and raping people, and the USA killing and raping people?

It seems that the land of the free reserves human rights for its own citizens, and no one else.

Was I wrong? Maybe I was. We can argue about it.

But what I don't concede was that there is only one possible way of looking at it and that those who favored the invasion were simply bloodthirsty and looking for conquest.

I get all that. I was with the removal of Saddam too. He was a horrible man. However it is the way it was done that infuriates me. First of all, the war was based on a lie (okay if some of you don't think it wasn't a lie, then half truth :rolleyes:), 2ndly, the fact that it was a "war" and now the process of reforms. It is all about the chaos that erupted because they chose to go about it in the wrong way.

I mean, they destabilized a whole country due to the removal of one man? This is America we're talking about. They could have gotten to Saddam through the quickest and the most bloodless route..only if they gave it more thought before invading Iraq based on lies and to some extent ulterior motives.

Could Saddam have been removed by some other country? Personally that is what I wanted. I wanted the USA to have stayed out of it. Leave that headache to someone else.

So now people are saying the US Army invaded Iraq ... just to save them?

Seriously people.

i remember teaching a refugee girl from iraq.
saddam's regime burnt her grandmother to death in front of the whole family. the girl had severe burn marks on her arm. thank god her face was not touched.
i don't think her story was fake, she was only 6 and she could tell it with great clarity.

btt.

So Jeff, how do you feel about the American soldiers who torture and rape Iraqis? You know for example, the Abu Ghraib prison.

What's the difference between Saddam's men killing and raping people, and the USA killing and raping people?

It seems that the land of the free reserves human rights for its own citizens, and no one else.

Who defends Abu Ghraib?

Try reading US Milblogs to see what the soldiers say.

They wanted to see those people executed, they were more furious with them than anyone else.

If you honestly believe (I guess a lot of people here do) that the US invaded Iraq and started acting like Saddam then I can understand very well why you oppose the action vociferously.

I don't think that's remotely what's going on. I think people have little idea how bad Saddam was

What happened with Abu Ghraib was:

1. It was exposed BY THE US MILITARY.

2. The people involved were relieved of their jobs and prosecuted.

3. They system at the prison was reformed.

That's not the way it worked under Saddam! :p

I read a blog post about life under Saddam quoting an Iraqi writer about his experience under Saddam:

I remember a parade down one of the main thoroughfares of Baghdad when I was a child. The road was closed to traffic, and thousands of people joined in the march, which was intended to celebrate the glory of Saddam. As the day wore on, however, a small group of insurgents became vocal in their criticisms of the regime and started to shout anti-Saddam slogans. There weren’t very many—certainly only a small proportion of the crowd—but the Republican Guard was quick to react. A helicopter immediately flew overhead, and white paint was poured over the entire crowd—insurgents and noninsurgents alike. Heavily armed soldiers were then dispatched with orders to shoot anyone stained with white paint. The whole operation took less than an hour. A few lucky souls with paint only on their clothes managed to escape the crowd and change, but people with paint in their hair or bodies, where it was more difficult to remove, fared less well. The military scoured the area and shot dead anybody suspected of being part of the “uprising.”

http://vernondent.blogspot.com/2008/04/kite-flying-in-iraq.html

Whole prisons especially for children!

Ironically, these children may have been the lucky ones. Over the past decade, international organizations like Human Rights Watch, have repeatedly reported on the imprisonment, torture, and execution of children by the Saddam Hussein regime. Children have been among the nearly 300,000 persons who have "disappeared" in Iraq since the later 1970s. Children have been routinely and repeatedly arrested to force their parents to confess to crimes against the regime.

For example, a March Boston Globe story detailed the interrogation of a former Iraqi secret police thug who had specialized in torture. The thug admitted torturing children as young as five or six to "get their mothers talking." He claimed that Iraqi torturers never killed the children, just "beat them with steel cables." But he was contradicted by a BBC story in which another former regime torturer said it was common to kill children if their parents wouldn't talk.

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/prisons-for-children-discovered-in-baghdad/

Don't forget the Marsh Arabs! Have you heard of them? No one talks about them.

There was a whole vast marsh in southern Iraq at the end of the Tigris and Euphrates with its own ancient culture. Saddam DRAINED THESE MILLIONS OF ACRES OF MARSHLAND and EXPELLED THE WHOLE PEOPLE! Killing many, depriving all of their way of life, creating a vast refugee population interally and one of the world's greatest ecological disasters.

No we're not talking about some abusive practices here and there. We are talking about staggering, mouth-wide-open monstrosity that is scarcely conceivable.

And that's why in Detroit when Iraq was invaded, the Iraqis danced in the streets for joy. It's why when Saddam was arrested, gunfire erupted in celebration all over Baghdad.

I get all that. I was with the removal of Saddam too. He was a horrible man. However it is the way it was done that infuriates me. First of all, the war was based on a lie (okay if some of you don't think it wasn't a lie, then half truth :rolleyes:), 2ndly, the fact that it was a "war" and now the process of reforms. It is all about the chaos that erupted because they chose to go about it in the wrong way.

I mean, they destabilized a whole country due to the removal of one man? This is America we're talking about. They could have gotten to Saddam through the quickest and the most bloodless route..only if they gave it more thought before invading Iraq based on lies and to some extent ulterior motives.

Well, look. You are being so reasonable and meeting me so much more than halfway that I don't have the heart to argue.

Just to say: Thanks.

He got arrested ?
Because it is illegal ?
Because you don't find even a significant minority approving this behaviour ?


EXCEPT IN US AND CANADA ?? JUST TYPE POLYGAMY ON THE NET AND SEE THE NUMBER OF CASES .. SPECIALLY AMONG MORMONS . WHILE TEENAGE PREGNANCY AMONG NON SEXUALLY ACTIVE GIRLS BESIDE CHILD ABUSE IS THE HIGHEST IN USA.
FORGET TO MENTION THE AUSTRIAN father WHO RAPED HIS DAUGHTER REPEATEDLY FOR 24 YEARS RESULTING IN BIRTH OF SEVEN CHILDREN.!


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So Jeff, how do you feel about the American soldiers who torture and rape Iraqis? You know for example, the Abu Ghraib prison.

What's the difference between Saddam's men killing and raping people, and the USA killing and raping people?

It seems that the land of the free reserves human rights for its own citizens, and no one else.

People see what they want to see.

I don't recall anybody being raped and tortured in Abu Graib. I recall a bunch of pictures showing people stripped naked in degrading poses. That's certainly not rape, and I am not convinced it is torture.

That is just one event. But some people act like it is the rule, not an exception.

Also the difference is, those handful of rogue soldiers who did that were exposed and busted by other Americans and they were prosecuted by the US Military. That's the only reason you even know about it.

Would SADDAM do that?

EXCEPT IN US AND CANADA ?? JUST TYPE POLYGAMY ON THE NET AND SEE THE NUMBER OF CASES .. SPECIALLY AMONG MORMONS . WHILE TEENAGE PREGNANCY AMONG NON SEXUALLY ACTIVE GIRLS BESIDE CHILD ABUSE IS THE HIGHEST IN USA.
FORGET TO MENTION THE AUSTRIAN father WHO RAPED HIS DAUGHTER REPEATEDLY FOR 24 YEARS RESULTING IN BIRTH OF SEVEN CHILDREN.!


ِ

The thing is the Western media does report things such as rape, incest, abuse while in some other countries it is a big no no to mention these issues. To say a country has no societal problems or very little is really being naive. If you don't have accurate media or stat reporting or something very very close to it how can you compare one's culture to another? I am the first to admit we have issues here. But I get pissed at people who think their country has no problems and always points a finger to other people yet they don't see the four other fingers pointing back at themselves.

The USA is much larger than some nations in Europe or the Middle East population wise and of course the stats are higher because there is more people. Do the math. Still, I would much rather live in the USA with all of our nationalities, religions, and creeds than anywhere else.

EXCEPT IN US AND CANADA ?? JUST TYPE POLYGAMY ON THE NET AND SEE THE NUMBER OF CASES .. SPECIALLY AMONG MORMONS . WHILE TEENAGE PREGNANCY AMONG NON SEXUALLY ACTIVE GIRLS BESIDE CHILD ABUSE IS THE HIGHEST IN USA.
FORGET TO MENTION THE AUSTRIAN father WHO RAPED HIS DAUGHTER REPEATEDLY FOR 24 YEARS RESULTING IN BIRTH OF SEVEN CHILDREN.!
ِ

Dear Mr. Sands,

You asked a question about what had happened to the Mormon gentleman and I answered you.

He was arrested.

Now please refrain from diverting this topic into the usual 'the west is corrupt and all its women are *****s and all it's young girls sleep around' kind of thread.

I thanks.

PS. In polite company, it's considered rude to type in all caps, being akin to shouting. So please STOP IT.

So Jeff, how do you feel about the American soldiers who torture and rape Iraqis? You know for example, the Abu Ghraib prison.

What's the difference between Saddam's men killing and raping people, and the USA killing and raping people?

It seems that the land of the free reserves human rights for its own citizens, and no one else.Ah Sophi ... being a lwayer you very well know the difference.

But also being a lawyer you couldnt help yourself from tossing in ... :rolleyes:

Even when you know it will be tossed.

Your target audience got to hear it ... or in this case read it :p

off topic and stupid, for want of a politer word, which i couldn't find.
wudjab himself opened a thread about fritzl.
see that's how it works over here. name and shame not hide your head in the sand, or justify bad acts on our side by quoting bad acts from another side. bad is bad is bad all over the world.
your caps lock is bad netiquette. too.

Dear Mr. Sands,

You asked a question about what had happened to the Mormon gentleman and I answered you.

He was arrested.

Now please refrain from diverting this topic into the usual 'the west is corrupt and all its women are *****s and all it's young girls sleep around' kind of thread.

I thanks.

PS. In polite company, it's considered rude to type in all caps, being akin to shouting. So please STOP IT.

No Problem Mr.Wudjab .. Pls ask the rest to do the same .. and STOP making jokes of the wars created by their country and their dirty agressions victims, as if our peoples life are so cheap to be wasted and made joke of it .
By the way may I ask about your nationality and if you reside in Oman?

The thing is the Western media does report things such as rape, incest, abuse while in some other countries it is a big no no to mention these issues. To say a country has no societal problems or very little is really being naive. If you don't have accurate media or stat reporting or something very very close to it how can you compare one's culture to another? I am the first to admit we have issues here. But I get pissed at people who think their country has no problems and always points a finger to other people yet they don't see the four other fingers pointing back at themselves.

The USA is much larger than some nations in Europe or the Middle East population wise and of course the stats are higher because there is more people. Do the math. Still, I would much rather live in the USA with all of our nationalities, religions, and creeds than anywhere else.

very well .. so will you refrain from abusing and interfering in our countries issues (I mean your USA) .

I am just one person. Nothing I can do. I can voice my opinions here and those who know me well on this forum know I never ever supported this war. And I have particpated in public protests of the war here in the good ol' USofA. So unless you want me to go to D.C. and shoot every last politician who supports this war, which I will not do...then really your argument is invalid.

Hugs!

.....*Sigh*

I get all that. I was with the removal of Saddam too. He was a horrible man. However it is the way it was done that infuriates me. First of all, the war was based on a lie (okay if some of you don't think it wasn't a lie, then half truth :rolleyes:), 2ndly, the fact that it was a "war" and now the process of reforms. It is all about the chaos that erupted because they chose to go about it in the wrong way.

I mean, they destabilized a whole country due to the removal of one man? This is America we're talking about. They could have gotten to Saddam through the quickest and the most bloodless route..only if they gave it more thought before invading Iraq based on lies and to some extent ulterior motives.

Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of mistakes were made. I think today, the US Congress would NOT have approved President Bush's use of military force to remove Saddam. It was a bad time.

I don't think the intention was to destabilize the whole nation. I think anti-American forces in the region seized the opportunity to destabilize Iraq in an attempt to force the US into a quagmire.

I am just one person. Nothing I can do. I can voice my opinions here and those who know me well on this forum know I never ever supported this war. And I have particpated in public protests of the war here in the good ol' USofA. So unless you want me to go to D.C. and shoot every last politician who supports this war, which I will not do...then really your argument is invalid.

Hugs!

Make Peace .. No War . I miss those days.
No hardfeelings Marianna.