Does Islam promote polygamy?
No, polygamy in Islam is a permission not an injunction. Historically, all the prophets except Jesus, who was not married, had more than one wife. For Muslim men to have more than one wife is a permission which is given to them in the Quran, not to satisfy lust, but for the welfare of the widows and the orphans of the wars. In the pre-Islamic period, men used to have many wives. One person had 11 wives and when he became Muslim, he asked the Prophet Muhammad (P), "What should I do with so many wives?" and he said, "Divorce all except the four." The Quran says, "you can marry 2 or 3 and up to 4 women if you can be equally just with each of them" (4:3). Since it is very difficult to be equally just with all wives, in practice, most of the Muslim men do not have more than one wife. Prophet Muhammad (P) himself from age 24 to 50 was married to only one woman, Khadija. In the western society, some men who have one wife have many extramarital affairs. Thus, a survey was published in "U.S.A. Today" (April 4, 1988 Section D) which asked 4,700 mistresses what they would like their status to be. They said that "they preferred being a second wife rather than the 'other woman' because they did not have the legal rights, nor did they have the financial equality of the legally married wives, and it appeared that they were being used by these men."


Unfortunately , Nowadays , Most of the men re-marry for pleasure. (that’s what shows)
But even though , we don’t know what problems go on inside the houses…so, we can’t judge …

But , to those who would marry more than one wife , even If he was comfortable with the first one…
Why?...
What about your first wife’s feelings?!... Ever thought of what that would do to her?!
If you don’t care about her feelings…
…Then … what about your money? Doesn’t your first wife spend enough?

sexual desire is one of the main instincts of mankind...

after many years of marriage, or maybe after only few years of marriage, the man doesnt have the same passion for his wife...for more than one reason that is ( no need to mention them here)...

so re-marrying exclusively for the sake of fulfilling his sexual desires is not wrong, its better than going for extra marital affairs...

although the one-night-stop relations can be fun & without the burden of having another wife & responsibilities, but a man is suppose to respect his religion & fear the consequences of such acts...

or having a mistress can be fun too for men...

so the first wife has the options...

just to add, polygamy is practiced also by the mormons & they r christians...so its not restricted to islam....

Hit

this thread is very good but i doubt will have many responses

You are one of those who says always what has in mind so answer please :

would you do it and if yes wouldn't you feel bit guilty or sorry for the first wife ?

after many years of marriage, or maybe after only few years of marriage, the man doesnt have the same passion for his wife...for more than one reason that is ( no need to mention them here)...
If it isn't too crude or sensitive, it would be interesting if you'd mention why you think men loose the 'passion' for their first wife...

AMO, ill be honest with u & with everyone else...

i would have gone for the other options, most probably i would have had a mistress beside having my wife...

but now im changed, so ill stick with same lady for the rest of my life once i get married, maybe i feel guilty for her? YES for sure i do...

but even though i have the permission from my LORD to go for another wife if i wish/desire to...

but i cant handle them both i guess...

but the advantage of having them both is that they will keep on competing, that would be fun :6:

Same old soup

AMO, u replied me or Enigma with that soup thing?
im sure it was for her!

Enigma, ill be more than glad to mention them, the Q is, how many can digest it!

AMO, u replied me or Enigma with that soup thing?
im sure it was for her!

Enigma, ill be more than glad to mention them, the Q is, how many can digest it!
Well put a warning before you begin to type the reasons, I'd like to know!

Well it can be the same also for us, must be boring having same old hubby for 20 yrs

me thinks

honestly, i dont think its a very good idea to mention the reasons publicly!

honestly, i dont think its a very good idea to mention the reasons publicly!oh cmon is just sex ?

We are talking about another wife here, not a mistress

oh cmon is just sex ?

We are talking about another wife here, not a mistress
some people not all and i don't mean anyone who posted here think that a 2nd wife means sex

ok ill request STING to take over from now, im sure he can help u ladies out...

Hitman I commend you on your honesty but sadly you do nothing for the public image of Muslim men, particularly Arab Muslim men at all. Its that kind of attitude that endorses the existing stereotypes of Islam. It is also that attitude that sends women running. May Allah guide you ameen.

Its that kind of attitude that endorses the existing stereotypes of Islam. It is also that attitude that sends women running.
Which attitude ?

In my view, to be honest and brief, I dont think Islam promotes Polygamy or whatever, it basically restricts men from going down town with 10s of women like men in other societies do ;)

I wouldnt mind knowing the reasons either, but it might depress me. On the other hand, I might able to justify a 2nd wife to my 1st ;)

PM if u can :p

Which attitude ?
I was referring to Hitman's attitude, that paints Muslim men as chauvinistic pigs and highlights a disparity between men and women.

C'mon. Do tell ? I swear we won't be sensitive little gals :)

In my case, I dont think I will ever marry more than 1 women at once. Simply because I know I wont be able to treat them eqaully. If I do feel unsatisfied with my wife, I will try my best to fix things up, if I fail, I will divorce her first and then marry another one. Just as my wife has to right to leave me if I fail to satisfy her. Be it physically or emotionally.

ok ill request STING to take over from now, im sure he can help u ladies out...

Alright HITMAN, I will take over ;) As always I am glad to help ladies :cute:

Hitman I commend you on your honesty but sadly you do nothing for the public image of Muslim men, particularly Arab Muslim men at all. Its that kind of attitude that endorses the existing stereotypes of Islam. It is also that attitude that sends women running. May Allah guide you ameen.

Tell me dear what is so bad about the public image of Muslim men? Does it bother u that many of them have 4 wives at the same time? Is that so bad afterall?

I am sure u know what Islam teaches Muslim men and Women. And I am sure u know the reasons behing allowing men to marry upto 4 women. You probaly are also aware of the requirements. HITMAN just gave one reasoning for multiple marriages. There are many other.

C'mon. Do tell ? I swear we won't be sensitive little gals :)
OK gals, I will share the secret reasons that HITMAN talked of above. Before I start though, these are reasons that resulted from years of hard work by men like us. Its not based on anything but logic and facts. So you girls get ready and I ask the men to forgive me for leaking this information out :(

To start with, how many of you out there know about stupid men today who got married as soon as they got the chance. I know many such men who live in misery. Seeking love, care, romance, satisfaction and of coure sex, such men marry the first girl they see and feel good about.

They work hard and save so much of money to spend on their Marriages. Unlike in other socities, where the bride's family spends on the wedding and gift the groom, in Muslim societies, the poor man has to do it all. In many cases, few months passes before the girl gets in her true colors.

Its then when the problems start, the man who works so hard satisfying his wife and paying off his debts from his marriage, come back home only to find nagging and nagging. More stress and more headach. The sweet face and voices changes to torture then.

What is the man suppose to do then? I know we men act all tough and rough. But the truth is that we are good sensitive people who require love and care. Just as u gals' skin ;). And once we fail to find this in our wife, we start searching for substitutes. Should we go back to our mamas? I dont think thats possible. Should we start establishing illegal relationships with other women? Who by the way dont mind going down town with occupied taxis :P!

I hope this is a good reason to satisfy all u ladies. I am sure after this u gals husbands will be much happier ;)

sexual desire is one of the main instincts of mankind...

after many years of marriage, or maybe after only few years of marriage, the man doesnt have the same passion for his wife...for more than one reason that is ( no need to mention them here)...

so re-marrying exclusively for the sake of fulfilling his sexual desires is not wrong, its better than going for extra marital affairs...

although the one-night-stop relations can be fun & without the burden of having another wife & responsibilities, but a man is suppose to respect his religion & fear the consequences of such acts...

or having a mistress can be fun too for men...

so the first wife has the options...

just to add, polygamy is practiced also by the mormons & they r christians...so its not restricted to islam....

La hawla wala quwatta illa billa. There is so much wrong with your post here that I don't know where to begin.

But I shall stick to the religious failings in your rambling as I don't have the time or patience to deal with your moral deficiencies.

Islam is all about control of internal drives and desires and filtering the mutterings of Shaitaan in one's ear (I think your filter might need changed) I apologise if you are a non-Moslem - your avatar suggested you might be if the content of your post did not. It's not for me to judge you.

But I would ask you if you are a believer in One God and that Mohammad is his messenger to show me where exactly in the QUr'an or the sunnah of the Prophet pbuh where it concurs with this nonsense.

Your logic that if you get bored with one's wife sexually after 3 or 4 years that the polygamic allowance is allowed to you is flawed. So what happens after 12 years?! Ooops. Is that where you have to start controlling yourself or do you simply start divorcing them? Is it mut3a you actually want? That makes more sense but it was not clear from your post.

Can one night stands be fun and mistresses?! And what's the deal with bringing in kafir mormons to the discussion?! Eeeee.... what do you say to this?!

Thoroughly disgusted.

but now im changed, so ill stick with same lady for the rest of my life once i get married, maybe i feel guilty for her? YES for sure i do...
QUOTE]

Ya'Allah.... You'll stick with her!?!? I'm sure she must be VERY appreciative. May God grant her the serenity and the strength of deen to deal with the test that you clearly are.

[QUOTE=HITMAN] but i cant handle them both i guess...

but the advantage of having them both is that they will keep on competing, that would be fun :6:

I suspect one is too many for you to handle.

To start with, how many of you out there know about stupid men today who got married as soon as they got the chance. I know many such men who live in misery. Seeking love, care, romance, satisfaction and of coure sex, such men marry the first girl they see and feel good about.

They work hard and save so much of money to spend on their Marriages. Unlike in other socities, where the bride's family spends on the wedding and gift the groom, in Muslim societies, the poor man has to do it all. In many cases, few months passes before the girl gets in her true colors.

Its then when the problems start, the man who works so hard satisfying his wife and paying off his debts from his marriage, come back home only to find nagging and nagging. More stress and more headach. The sweet face and voices changes to torture then.

What is the man suppose to do then? I know we men act all tough and rough. But the truth is that we are good sensitive people who require love and care. Just as u gals' skin ;). And once we fail to find this in our wife, we start searching for substitutes. Should we go back to our mamas? I dont think thats possible. Should we start establishing illegal relationships with other women? Who by the way dont mind going down town with occupied taxis :P!

I hope this is a good reason to satisfy all u ladies. I am sure after this u gals husbands will be much happier ;)

Yes - I'm sure it is a great service you have performed - may God reward you to the full extent you deserve.

If you satisfy your woman, she will not nag, or change into a monster. Because a happy woman does not do this. If you are implying that some girls more or less lie and flatter to decieve to get into a marriage then you are an insecure misogenyst who needs to spend more time in the company of good brothers in Islam than in bars.

I have read other posts of yours with a degree of respect and appreciation, but here you either show your age/lack of experience or you show my previous impression of you here is incorrect.

I was referring to Hitman's attitude, that paints Muslim men as chauvinistic pigs and highlights a disparity between men and women.

No. Hitman's action does no such thing. It paints him as a chauvanist pig. No-one with any appreciation of the deen of Allah swt would dare post like this.

Am sorry to have dragged HIT into this but as i said he is one of the few ready to speak the truth always and that what he did.
He is also one of the best Muslims i ever met and am proud to be his friend.

He simply said that he would take a second wife rather than going for brothels.
Is this a chauvanist pig ?
Oh please cut the perfect Muslim attitude, we don't need it.

For the 1st time in sabla history, we have a sabla couples fight... This is so fun... I Likey... :D

Am sorry to have dragged HIT into this but as i said he is one of the few ready to speak the truth always and that what he did.
He is also one of the best Muslims i ever met and am proud to be his friend.

He simply said that he would take a second wife rather than going for brothels.
Is this a chauvanist pig ?
Oh please cut the perfect Muslim attitude, we don't need it.

Yes you are right. I apologise for aspiring to being a perfect Moslem, or even attempting it. Not sure what I was thinking of. The example of the Prophet is clearly not for us in this milennium today. We need to change and ape the West (if we are to avoid being bombed hey?) So yes, respectfully I will back down from criticising unIslamic filth when I see it. :) Oh yes, the Prophet pbuh clearly shared a similar viewpoint to Hitman when he engaged in polygamy. Yes. I'll back off this guy cos clearly he represents Islam and shi'i as it SHOULD be in this day and age... not like those bad old days.

Actually, you know what? I won't. Yes, what he says is filled with satanic nonsense and western decadence - that it is a truthful thing is quite irrelevant and besides the point. Speaking the truth is all very admirable and Islamic, alhamdulilah. Every other thing I have read here from this brother is not.

Polygamy IS acceptable. No question on this. For very clearly defined reasons and within very strict guidelines. Of this there is no question at all. I'm sure that this has been talked through and discussed a million times, though I am more than happy to recount these reasons with clear Quranic and sunnah referencing.

But nowhere is the foul rubbish that hitman spouts backed up in any of this.

I applaud your friendship to one such as Hitman and insh'Allah by associating with good practising Moslems he may learn the error of his immature and bedevilled ways. And like I say, there is nothing wrong with being a second wife sister amo_l_oman, if that is what you want, within these clearly prescribed guidelines. :love:

Allah hafiz.

Am a western revert same as you, i don't think i'll ever be married as second : is a bit difficult to accept, though am in a kind desperate situation :cute:

I fail to see where Hitman spoke rubbish.

The example of the Prophet is clearly not for us in this milennium today. We need to change and ape the West (if we are to avoid being bombed hey?) Welcome to the world of Abdullah and Rania :rolleyes:

Actually, you know what? I won't. Yes, what he says is filled with satanic nonsense and western decadence - that it is a truthful thing is quite irrelevant and besides the point. Speaking the truth is all very admirable and Islamic, alhamdulilah. Every other thing I have read here from this brother is not.

Allah hafiz.

Would you please complete your enlightenment and point out the satanic nonsense in this satanic, wrong pathed HITMAN, may Allah guide him to Islam.. As you can see, I am not very bright so I would really appreciate it if you could point them out in points with the reasons why they are satanic. One more thing, can you please quote few references from the Quran & the sunnah to your reasoning since I see you are a person who goes by the quran & sunnah as you pointed out and I quote:

But I would ask you if you are a believer in One God and that Mohammad is his messenger to show me where exactly in the QUr'an or the sunnah of the Prophet pbuh where it concurs with this nonsense.

Of course, you don't say nonsense, Astaghfur Allah, but I didn't want to modify your quote.

Pls no offtopic :D

We discussed poligamy several times, is boring :bored:
But what Bogus introduced here is something new and interesting :

the man point of view when thinking of doing it.

Wife feelings, wallet feelings :cute: other feelings

Sabla man, your views :think:

Pls no offtopic :D

We discussed poligamy several times, is boring :bored:
But what Bogus introduced here is something new and interesting :

the man point of view when thinking of doing it.

Wife feelings, wallet feelings :cute: other feelings

Sabla man, your views :think:

’Ohh, me... Sabla man.. That's so sweet... May Allah send you straight to heaven *using the Express road*. :love:

I am keepig away of this discussion because I am not as knowledged as few of the members in here. I only wanted to fill what I call gaps in the discussion.

I couldn't point out the satanic nonsense in HITMAN's posts. Most probably because he is very tricky so I am asking the Sheikh to point them out for me & add few of the refereces from Quran & sunnah so I can use them for my discussions with "not so bright" people around the net. :)

You don't have to be mullah to explain if you'd go for it since the option is there and if your first wife feelings would affect your choice.

Very simple :cutewink:

You don't have to be mullah to explain if you'd go for it since the option is there and if your first wife feelings would affect your choice.

Very simple :cutewink:

Hey... You are confusing me... Take it easy on me will you, pleeeeeeeease...

I want only to know the satanic nonsence made by HITMAN and the Quranic & sunnah references to them so I can show other people on other forums how good mullah I am... Now of course, Mr Raffee is correct, but what if they asked me for a prove from quran & sunnah just like Mr Raffee did... I would be stuck & Ahlu Al-Bid3ah will prevail...

Am sorry to have dragged HIT into this but as i said he is one of the few ready to speak the truth always and that what he did.
He is also one of the best Muslims i ever met and am proud to be his friend.

He simply said that he would take a second wife rather than going for brothels.
Is this a chauvanist pig ?
Oh please cut the perfect Muslim attitude, we don't need it.

Its not that amo.. its as Mr. raffee said its the attuide and languge.. i mean its one thing to say that he'd take a second wife and its another to act like that. i mean as Mr.Raffee said islam is about controlling your sexual desires and wants not acting upon them.. if a man takes a second wife on the purpose then he is acting on lust. and he should'nt even think of or mention the brothels.. a wife isnt just a prostutiute who's your's to do in law. she should be honoured and respected as required by Allah. i find what Hit said extremely offensive to woman and i can't see how you dont. we are not sex objects whether or not we are their wifes or mistresses. and that is not the truth for all men, thats just the truth to a majority of men not all. how would you feel amo as a woman if your husband did that?? would you be thrilled? would you be over the moon? i highly doubt it. and what about cutting the perfect muslim's attuide? we should all try to be as perfect muslims as we can, although we can't be perfect we should be semi-perfect im not speaking for myself since i'm not very religious but those who are religious as I suspect Mr.Raffee is from what he wrote God bless them wa inshallah yahdeehom zeeyada. because we should all aim to be like that most perfect muslim and that is the prophet Mohammed and we should take him as a qoudwa.

I would not be thrilled in any case :

no offense for women here who are or have related women being into such a marriage but i could not share a bed nor a heart.

Having sexual feelings, and Hit knows it very good cause he is a doctor, is a very normal thing specially for a man and taking a cold shower is not enough.

Yes sex is not everything but is part of our life and of how the opposite gender relates to us.
Why Rasulullah had so many wives ?

its fine AMO, they can call me with whatever names they wish too...it doesnt affect me a bit...

i wont turn this thread into a "FITNA" for some to sit back & enjoy...

Yes - I'm sure it is a great service you have performed - may God reward you to the full extent you deserve.

If you satisfy your woman, she will not nag, or change into a monster. Because a happy woman does not do this. If you are implying that some girls more or less lie and flatter to decieve to get into a marriage then you are an insecure misogenyst who needs to spend more time in the company of good brothers in Islam than in bars.

I have read other posts of yours with a degree of respect and appreciation, but here you either show your age/lack of experience or you show my previous impression of you here is incorrect.

Dear Mr Raffee I would first suggest that u calm down and relax. We r all friends here and there is no need to get all hyper and start whiping our A$$E$. :D

Let me clearify HITMAN and myself over here. And I would like to do that by asking you a couple of questions.

First tell me whether you doubt the multiple marriages for men permitted by Islam? If you are not, then we all r on the same boat. And if you are, maybe you should start by giving your reasons. So we can prove to you that we are right ;)

Secondly, I have observed that you probably live a wonderful life with Mrs. Raffee. I am sure both of you are pretty satisfied. But what u must understand is that not all couples are like u. In fact, very very few are. And I am sure u agree.

Also, as for the secrect I shared above. I agree that if women are satisfied tey would not turn into monsters. But then again, if we men are satisfied, we will keep tem satisfied right :hmm: Now am not blaming anyone here.

I would like to emphasize that no one in here is qualified to represent Islam. We are not sheiks. We r just normal men and women. So lets try to share our ideas and thoughts logically.

i mean as Mr.Raffee said islam is about controlling your sexual desires and wants not acting upon them.. if a man takes a second wife on the purpose then he is acting on lust.

I agree..Islam is about controlling our desires. Be it sexual or otherwise. That is exactly why we muslims have rules governing such issues. I dont think Islam or any other religion for that matter forbids Sex. I will be honest. I find it very very difficult controlling my sexual desires. What is the solution? The solution is I get married as soon as I can. It would be wrong that I go down town with every other women I find here and there like men of other socities do :rolleyes:

In the same way, if after my first marriage, my wife fails to satisfy my sexual desires after few or many years, what am I to do? Should I live the rest of my life being horny?! :blush: Or should I lie to my wife who has lived with me for so many years and start sleeping with other women? I dont think its fair to her or the noble relation I have with her. Or maybe you suggest I should leave her and marry another one! What about her life then? What kind of life will she live then?

I know many womenget all sensitive and emotional about this issue. But lets be rational and deal with facts here.

Yes sex is not everything but is part of our life and of how the opposite gender relates to us.

Why Rasulullah had so many wives ?

Astirghfirullah.......... Is it because he got bored sexually with Aishah ra that he married other women? Zaynab just didn't do it for him? Hafsah and Umm Salama decided jiggy-jiggy wasn't for them. Astirghfirullah. And shame on you for this. Again, I have had respect for you for some of your other posts around the place but this has just lost all of my respect.

By all means launch attacks of innuendo on me but may God have mercy on you for even thinking what you just posted and associating the most perfect Moslem of all with Hitman's perverse theories.

Tell me you accidentally put the Prophet's name where you really meant to put someone else's. Tell me you put this post in the wrong thread. Tell me anything. But do not tell me you put the Rasool's name in here intentionally.

I dont think Islam or any other religion for that matter forbids Sex.

I can't find the slow handclap emoticon... WHERE IS THE SLOW HANDCLAP EMOTICON?????

In the same way, if after my first marriage, my wife fails to satisfy my sexual desires after few or many years, what am I to do?

Perhaps learn how to satisfy her sexually?

Should I live the rest of my life being horny?! :blush: Or should I lie to my wife who has lived with me for so many years and start sleeping with other women?

Perhaps I am just being old-fashioned or moral, but shouldn't you actually make an effort with your wife? I don't know what to say. You are speaking not from experience, but from someone who has never been kissed (and that is a euphemism for virgin if you didn't understand) point of view. Which is a good thing to be alhamdulilah, don't get me wrong. But you are speaking of matters you have no understanding of. And that in itself is unIslamic akhi.

Or maybe you suggest I should leave her and marry another one! What about her life then? What kind of life will she live then?

Don't tempt me...

I know many womenget all sensitive and emotional about this issue. But lets be rational and deal with facts here.

I get emotional and sensitive when I see my beloved religion misappropriated, belittled and deflowered by people like you and Hitman. I get emotional and sensitive when I see my sisters in Islam insulted by people like you with that comment above. The allowance of polygamy, and I apologise for repeating myself, is for very clearly defined reasons and in a very clearly defined and regulated fashion.

It's not for young blokes who are unable to understand and deal with both the inside and the outside of women. Women are our equal - you would do well to remember that.

I would like to apologize to Dr. HITMAN... When I read Mr Raffee's posts, I thought you converted to Judaism... Now I know that Mr Raffee is only filling the topic with personal opinions with no prove from the Quran nor the sunnah, which he *surprisingly* asked for earlier... Emotional talk that has no value *religiously speaking*.

I am OUT of this thread.

Ali The Magnificent said: "the best deed of a great man is to forgive and forget"...

see again, i dont see why polygamy is being restricted to ISLAM

http://www.christianpolygamy.com/

of course, in other faiths, its the minorities who practise it...

i still didnt get what Mr Raffee wants exactly...i feel hes just beating around the bush!

I would like to apologize to Dr. HITMAN... When I read Mr Raffee's posts, I thought you converted to Judaism... Now I know that Mr Raffee is only filling the topic with personal opinions with no prove from the Quran nor the sunnah, which he *surprisingly* asked for earlier... Emotional talk that has no value *religiously speaking*.

I am OUT of this thread.

You certainly are akhi - I have no idea what you are talking about. Your posts always appear to be random assortments of English words in no particular order and as such I don't actually know what you are on about.

But I love you as my brother in Islam regardless! (http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/)

I don't see anything offensive in suggesting that the Prophet (pbuh) had normal sexual desires. One example is his marriage to Souda at the same time as Aisha - because Aisha had not reached sexual maturity. After all, wasn't the life of Mohammed (pbuh) designed to guide mankind on how to live, including how to deal with and express the natural desires we are given? What's the hang up about men desiring women? It's normal and by design.

The Prophet (pbuh) said "Upon me he hath put a love of perfume and women. And the prayer that cools my eyes"

There's nothing un-Islamic about sex and the desire to have women (even to have more than one woman!). Brother, you are starting to sound more like a Catholic priest!

The reason for the allowance for a man to marry more than one woman is because Islam is a realistic religion and one which is not based upon idealistic notions which would cause real problems of everyday life without solution or treatment. It is very probable that a man marrying a second wife could be solving a problem, in that his first wife is incapable of bearing children or has extended menstruation cycles which result in his sexual needs being unsatisfied. The first wife could be ill and thus, instead of divorcing her and leaving her alone, could marry a second wife and remain next to his first wife, and so on. This allowance also solves the problem of a widow who needs a husband to care for her but does not wish for an unmarried young man, similar to a divorced woman with children. Indeed this allowance may solve a social problem which arises from the high proportion of good women who want to marry in comparison to able men. This is a common problem which increases particularly in the aftermath of wars and the like. The fact, in this case, is that the extra women do one of three following options:

1) That they remain unmarried for the rest of their lives, and are thus deprived from being a wife and a mother, which is a great injustice.
2) That they fulfill their sexual needs regardless of decrees of religion and acceptable behavior, which will result in a tragic loss in this life and the hereafter.
3) That they agree to marry an already married man who is capable of meeting their living and sexual needs and who is confident in his ability to deal fairly and justly between his wives.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543436
http://www.jannah.org/sisters/polygamy.html


mr Raffee my starting point is that a man has tried to solve his problem with his first wife as best as he could but they didn't succeed
Hence the second marriage comes

since how long you reverted if i may ask

I don't see anything offensive in suggesting that the Prophet (pbuh) had normal sexual desires. One example is his marriage to Souda at the same time as Aisha - because Aisha had not reached sexual maturity. After all, wasn't the life of Mohammed (pbuh) designed to guide mankind on how to live, including how to deal with and express the natural desires we are given? What's the hang up about men desiring women? It's normal and by design.

The Prophet (pbuh) said "Upon me he hath put a love of perfume and women. And the prayer that cools my eyes"

There's nothing un-Islamic about sex and the desire to have women (even to have more than one woman!). Brother, you are starting to sound more like a Catholic priest!

Ah Mimosa...! I've been watching Al-Jazeera avidly for those videos that you see on the news, but I haven't spotted you yet! Good for you mate! :) Keep on ducking and weaving! :help:

;)

I didn't say that sexual desire does not exist though. Nor did I say sex was unIslamic. At least I can't remember saying anything in my sermon to that extent. But polygamy does not exist for men to get their rocks off when they've spotted some greener grass on the other side.

The marriage of the Prophet to Saudah was not because Aisha was not of conceiving age - he married Saudah a year before Aisha not after (and as some sort of release device as you insinuate here).

Which is fair enough - khyr insh'Allah.

[QUOTE=amo_l_oman
since how long you reverted if i may ask

You may not. Thankyou for your interest in my personal life. I am however married and uniterested in any further wives.

Thankyou for your interest in my personal life. I am however married and uniterested in any further wives.

lol I have a deal with Mimmi to find me an Iraqi husband

I was asking simply cause you talk like a boring Catholic priest or a western new Muslim, that's it
is a phase which stops after a couple of years usually, am not interested in an OBL wannabe :D

lol I have a deal with Mimmi to find me an Iraqi husband

I was asking simply cause you talk like a boring Catholic priest or a western new Muslim, that's it
is a phase which stops after a couple of years usually, am not interested in an OBL wannabe :D

I can see your phase stopped some time ago mash'Allah... :( The deen of Allah swt will ebb and flow in us all. But I shall pray for you sister. Insh'Allah khyr.

I will not post anymore here. This is descending into personal attacks and away from the topic. You men should show respect to women and not treat them like chattel. Polygamy IS acceptable but not for kicks. Wallahu al3am.

I remember my friend Simon: he had come here in the far east about 15 years ago or more, when, as he explained, to find a decent job and salary in UK with iron lady was more a miracle than a challenge.His first destination was Saudi Arabia and for those who know the place, well it will be easy to understand the shock. Still he remembers when at prayer time, police used to kick everybody away from the streets.Is the same KSA from where these days, King Abdullah preaches against terrorism (http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=3981&InNewsItemID=42304).Simon worked there for two years only, then moved to Abu Dhabi for a 5 years period, he is a pharmacist like me.

There he reverted to Islam.

His last destination was Muscat: he's been working here for less than the previous period. Not his intention to remain forever but he anticipated his departure to UK of few months. As the common friend who introduced me to him said, he had some problems with his managerial staff here: as many know, this is a country willing to go up in the sky together with Bahrain or Emirates, but when you want to introduce some simple procedures to accelerate burocracy and to facilitate work, well that is a great sin, specially in government sector.

So he packed his bag, accepted an invitation from a colleague to Zanzibar for a short vacation and left the Sultanate for good. I had the pleasure to meet him exactly few days after his coming back to the old continent.

He was a nice person, smart, intelligent and very open like everybody used to live in a different culture. I met him again few months later, always in London during my holidays and noticed some changes: he tried in every way not to come alone at our meeting but with another male friend, a British revert. This guy had also the habit not to look women in the eyes, something which is a rule for Muslim males if am not mistaken (see what a bad Muslimah I am) but practiced only out of Arab countries and gives an idea of where mostly radical Islam is developing.

Simon was different: he talked mainly of his life in England now, he didn't like jobs offered to him nor he had urgent need and spent most of his time in conferences or meetings discussing religion and politics. He found also funny to write in some Christian forum to provoke some reaction with difficult questions. Don't hear from him since some time and am sure, at least I hope, he didn't join this insane generation of Muslim fanatics. He is a good man and when you have solid bases then you don't get easily spoiled.



The reason why, maybe I already wrote this in my previous blogs but is good to repeat, reverts are fertile soil for fundamentalism, is that we feel to have missed a lot by knowing Islam in our 20s or 30s or later also. So we try to recover by learning as much as we can, the basics. Often the so called born Muslims address us as better Muslims but is plain wrong cause a technical Muslim is not always, never I'd say, a good one.

This attitude can easily turn into fanatism if bad teachers find good pupils.

http://cheladirittaviaerasmarrita.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_cheladirittaviaerasmarrita_archive.html

hope you'll get it before too late

I too will pray for you :)

i would like to apologize to Hit i didnt mean it as an insult, i just got very into what Mr.Raffe had said, my sincere apologizes if i had insulted you or ne one else.

I've been watching Al-Jazeera avidly for those videos that you see on the news, but I haven't spotted you yet!

Charming.


The marriage of the Prophet to Saudah was not because Aisha was not of conceiving age - he married Saudah a year before Aisha not after (and as some sort of release device as you insinuate here).

Depends which history you read; just quoting other scholars here but I can't say they are more accurate than those you have looked at. My understanding was that they were married at the same time in terms of betrothal (malka), but that Aisha did not move to her husband's house for a another year (and complete the marriage), and of course the marriage was not consummated then for a further two years (for obvious reasons). Anyway, apologies if I am mistaken.


polygamy does not exist for men to get their rocks off when they've spotted some greener grass on the other side.

Neither does getting married for the first time, but it's part of the reason many scholars recommend early marriage. And I would dispute that it is better to divorce and re-marry (although like you I am also divorced!). If divorce is "The most hated 7alal", there is no similar injunction against polygamy. Whatever my or your concerns about the sensitivities and practicalities, I am not aware of anything in terms of Islamic doctrine which even hints the polygamy is undersirable.

Amidst the pious hubris, you do I think have a good point though (at least I think it's what you are getting at: The Prophet (pbuh) lived in a monogamous relationship with Khadeeja for 27 years, despite her age. He only re-married when he became a widower (albeit twice in rapid succession, but according to what I have read, for a good reason). After that he only married widows in need of protection (widows of friends and enemies alike), a woman who offered herself to him in marriage, and finally a Christian woman given to him as a slave whose status he freed and elevated through marriage to him. (Interesting point by the way for those who call Christians "kuffar" - he even called her "Um Al Mu'mineen" like he did Um Salama, according to some references.)

The common thread in all these, as far as I can see, is that every time the Prophet married beyond monogamy, he appears to have done so for the gratification or protection of someone else. Not a bad justification for polygamy, and at least a suggestion that as you say, polygamy (or any marriage?) should be born of a good deed, and not just sleepless nights!

Mr Raffee, please calm down. I wonder why are you so stressed and edgy. I wonder if you need some good sex :P

Anyhow dear, I hope u dont me advising on something. With my age and experience I have lernt that its useless countering others with off-topic posts. It leads to the thread being locked ;).

Lets just relax here for a second and take a deep breath. Now dear, tell what do u exactly want? What are u fighting for and what r u suggesting? Or is it that ur just pissed at us all and want to counter our posts senselessly even if we agree with u. Please, clearly state your claims and points so we can talk about it. Its very unclear which side ur on!!! Perhaps u need to go down town ;)

Hot discussion going on here during Eid :D

For those who think that marrying a second wife is just for sex, I would say this is not temporary marraige (zawaj mut3a) but it's a real marraige same as the first marraige. In Islam adultry is haram and therefore Islam opened another halal door for those men who want/need to have more than one wife but making sure they treat all of them in justice which is the main condition as stated in the Quran. Some people say there must be a strong reason to marry another woman but nothing stated in the Quran related to reasons as far as I know.

I agree. But if you want to follow the example of the Prophet (pbuh), then marry a widow, a slave or someone who is in otherwise in need of a husband but might normally find it difficult to marry.

Were you to take a second wife for that reason (with the agreement of your first of course), then I would admire you. But throwing your mahar money at a cute young girl who could otherwise have been a first wife is just greedy! (Although I might sneakily think "you lucky git", I admit!)

Also old foreigner ladies :)

Especially old foreigner ladies. Tea, would you please marry Amo? I think the mahar is two bars of chocolate and a big smile.

The Quran allows muslim men to marry upto 4 wives ON THE CONDITION that he is to adequately provide for them.

What does that mean ?

Does that mean that the man expect the state to pay for them ?

What happens if he marries them and can no longer adequately provide for them ?

The condition is to treat them in just (3adl) way.

If he fears that he can't meet that condition then he should marry only one.

Should he expect the state to pay for them ? You know, my tax dollars being used to subsidize your multiple wives ?

If the family is entitled for zaka then why not.

Maybe this is not discussing a muslim country ?

Then you should not post this in Islamic sabla.

Nope. It's an islamic issue involving Muslim men.

They can get zaka too while in a non muslim country.

Next Q.

Hundreds in GTA get extra welfare for polygamous unions (http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/02/08/4834588-sun.html)

OK, Hitman, you win the prize !

:)

Wudjab, is the cost of the prize from your tax? :p

Perhaps you want the taxpayers' money to be spent elsewhere rather than on the multiple wives of Muslims

But what's wrong if eventually it's for a good cause

Take it positively

No,

Why should my tax dollars go towards subsidizing your religious lifestyle ?

There are better causes. Homelessness, child care, education.

I am glad this topic is not under the bright light of media glare. This will surely be examined and fixed.

Of interest in the same article was this gem :

The families receiving benefits didn't want their identities released because it can lead to questions by authorities on how they entered Canada and can mean an end to their benefits, Ali said.

So apparently all these upstanding Canadian immigrants have come into this country what appears to be illegal means.

wudjab, you should also love your enemy.

As per Christ teachings, am I right?

Who said I don't love them ?

I just don't want to give them my tax dollars.

Why should my tax dollars go towards subsidizing your religious lifestyle ?

My lifestyle?

Wudjab I think you are being a bit stingy here

Nope. I need my tax dollars helping my family first.

Do the math.

1 man + 4 wives.

Each wife gets approx. 1500$ per month.

Thats 6,000 per household per month.

72,000 per year.

Who needs to work !

Hopefully now that this has been exposed and citizens have been outraged and writing to the mayer and local government, this will stop. Hopefully we can deport these people as well since they have used illegal means to enter the country.

Wudjab, you are contributing to that amount, not all of that goes from your tax

I hope you don't stop paying the taxes & eventually get raided by the CRA

Nope.

I'm a legal citizen of this country,

I applied legally.
Paid all the fees.
Provided all the legal paperwork.
Waited my turn.
Entered legally.
Pay my taxes.

So I have nothing to fear.

Unlike these polygamists who have now been exposed sucking of the public teat.

My city increased a whole bunch of taxes recently because they isn't enough revenue.

All the while spending millions to fund a bunch of polygamist and their (potentially illegal) wives.
Good riddance I say, good riddance.

You make it sound as if every muslim man there married to 4 wives.

Plus think about it, those men are increasing the population beside helping other women to have a family and kids. Kind of for humanity reasons.

I hope this thread isn't going to be way of it is main topic !

Wudjab, what if the Muslim citizens demand that the chunk of their taxes shouldn't treat anyone suffering from liver failure or cirrhosis due to alcoholism?

Or their taxes shouldn't treat complications of unwanted teenage pregnancies or STD's secondary to pre-marital sex?

marry another one wudjab and u'll get your tax back to you
or maybe marry four :D

I guess that demand might be valid is say, Pakistan.

Maybe they should have stayed there ?

They could have their 4 wives, not subsidize medicine for cirossis of the liver and teenage pregnancies.

Nope Wudjab, people have the freedom to migrate

You can't force people to stay in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Turkmenistan, they migrated legally, not illegally

Sadly, apparently something is not quite kosher, Hitman

The families receiving benefits didn't want their identities released because it can lead to questions by authorities on how they entered Canada and can mean an end to their benefits, Ali said.

Anything against the law is wrong

Perhaps you scared the hell out of them & as a result they are not willing to reveal the identities ;p

We'll soon know, won't we ?

Now that the bright light of media attention is shining on them, they can't really hide much longer, can they ?

I hope they will not divorce 3 of their wives due to this.

Or.. get this,,,,

they might actually have to go out


AND GET A JOB.

So Wudjab, what are you against exactly? Your stance isn't very clear

1- Against wives getting allowances from taxpayers's money?

2- Against the above in case they are not willing to reveal identities?

Let's see ... hitman

1. they broke the law and entered the country illegally.

2. they have broke another law by have multiple wifes.

3. now they are commiting fraud by collecting tax payer money to support those illegal wifes that entered the country illegally.

How many crimes do they need to commit before we can call them criminals :rolleyes:

Welcome back Jack, I was starting to get worried about you, good see you again

How about thinking positively for a change?

1- They entered legally

2- Having multiple wives is allowed for Muslim Canadians

Welcome back Jack, I was starting to get worried about you, good see you again

How about thinking positively for a change?

1- They entered legally

2- Having multiple wives is allowed for Muslim CanadiansIf they entered the country "legally" the canadian authorities have the identity of those that are afraid to give their identity ... :rolleyes:

And I didn't know it is legal in canada (i know it's illegal in the US) to have mutiple wifes ... maybe someone can give us official ruling.

How's that for positive ...

jack,

Bush entered Iraq illegally, how come you didn't say anything about it?

Plus as HITMAN said be +ve and love your enemy.

If they entered the country "legally" the canadian authorities have the identity of those that are afraid to give their identity ... :rolleyes:

And I didn't know it is legal in canada (i know it's illegal in the US) to have mutiple wifes ... maybe someone can give us official ruling.

How's that for positive ...

Still there are many Americans who have mutiple wifes. So they are doing something illegal but the authorities keep quiet about it.

Still there are many Americans who have mutiple wifes. So they are doing something illegal but the authorities keep quiet about it.They shouldn't keep quite ... they should enforce the law.

Gald to see you are a "Bush" lover now too ... :yes:

Now, British taxpayers will be helping those men, paying millions of pounds each year to support their larger-than-average families.
(http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=ffac802c-71c7-432e-ac30-144723754d34)

I don't see anything wrong if the taxes are going for a good cause, which is helping the ones in need

We should take things positively, those taxes will enter in your "mizaan el 7asanaat" (scale of good deeds)

No, you keep your 'mizaan el 7asanaat' for yourself.

I will be writing to my Mayor, Municipal Counciler, Provincial MP, and MP on this issue once again this morning (as as hundreds of thousands if the news reports are to be believed) that action is taken on this issue immediately.

Wudjab, you've definitely had a tough day with all that writing

Now I am looking forward to your answer on click (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022949&postcount=30)

If it does some good, then I have no complaints. (Ps. If use a template, then you write once and use it multiple times)

1. Against the MULTIPLE wives getting free money at taxpayers cost.
2. They are not revealing their identities BECAUSE they have entered illegally.

If this man wants to marry 12 women and 16 goats and claim benefits for them all then he should move to a country that allows that.

Not Canada.

So if they have entered legally (perhaps eventually obtained the Canadian citizenship) & revealed the identities then it's fine?

No, because it is illegal to claim social security for each of the wives.. because it is illegal to have more than I wife in Canada.

PS : Whats your opinion on these leeches sucking on the public teat going out and trying to get a job ?

I can't judge them for not working, maybe they prefer being house wives

it is illegal to have more than I wife in Canada.

Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, said wives in polygamous marriages are recognized as spouses under the Ontario Family Law Act, providing they were legally married under Muslim laws abroad.

Sorry, you don't get to choose to sit at home and be a housewife AND claim social security. Social Security is to tide you over during the period when you lose your job or are in between jobs. Otherwise, the rest of us are bloody fools to go to work - might as well relax at home and let the state fund my lifestyle.

Yes, but under the Federal Goverment act AND Immigration rules, the is illegal.

So they are in the country illegally.

""I can assure you that polygamy is not recognized under immigration legislation," immigration spokesman Karen Shadd-Evelyn said yesterday. "A conjugal relationship, whether involving marriage or a common-law partnership, must be exclusive."

So, they could not have come into the country as part of a polygamous family - but the fact that they are here means they LIED to get in.

Thats breaking the law.

And now that this lacuna has been pointed out, I'm sure the Ontario Family Law act will be amended to plug this loophole.

I think you are just feeling jealous that they have 4 wifes and you have one. They are Muslims and you are Christian, don't compare yourself to them.

And you should not care where does your tax goes because you get benefit in return.

How does supporting illegal marriage and 4 wives benefit me ?

How does supporting illegal marriage and 4 wives benefit me ?uhhhhh ... same way wiping your bottom with your hand benefits you?

This is just a guess ... Tea will have to tell us since he is the expert :hyper:

Personally I don't want to see men with multiply wives getting any kind of god damn benefits in a Western nation where polygamy is illegal. If they want such marriages recognized then live in a country that recognizes them, simple as that.

especially if they go out dressed like batman.

Personally I don't want to see men with multiple wives in a country that does not allow polygamy.

Period.

Personally I don't want to see men with multiple wives in a country that does not allow polygamy.

Period.
i don't want it either. my country our laws. your country your laws. you come here, you respect mine. i come there, i respect yours.

Totally totally agree Minerva. When I was in S. Korea I respected the local laws and when I visited UAE and Oman I respected the laws there. If people want to move to the USA then they have to respect our laws and our laws say that polygamy is illegal therefore multiple wives are not recognized nor should they receive benefits from hardworking taxpayers to pay for them. If they want that kind of recognition I see absolutely no problems whatsoever in living within a nation where polygamy is legal. End of story. No debate. Just live in a country where your wives can receive the necessary care and benefits due them under the laws that recognize such a union.

polygamy is not new law, it existed since the creation of the earth. It can solve society from corruption, imagine if women to men ration is 3 to 1, what could happen to those extra women without husbands.

It's practical law for the benefit of humanity and society.

Sure.

They are free to move to Pakistan or Bangladesh or Saudi Arabia and have as may wives as they wish (just limited to 4 at a time).

polygamy is not new law, it existed since the creation of the earth. It can solve society from corruption, imagine if women to men ration is 3 to 1, what could happen to those extra women without husbands.
It's practical law for the benefit of humanity and society.Others had way more than 4 ... do you feel cheated Icy.

And if that is true ... if the ratio is skewed in the other direction the same would apply ... but it does not.

My Omani's ex's grandfather had 8 so he did not obey the Islamic laws regarding 4. His father has two and he doesn't live with either. What does that say in regards to the children made from these two marriages? I have a friend whose husband married another woman and she does not like it. He did not even gain her approval as first wife for this second marriage to occur. He barely even sees his children from the first marriage. So polygamy is not always the answer to solve the ills of society. Some people like it and some don't.

I think it is over-generalizing to think polygamy would solve the world's problems. There is no need to enforce this practice upon people who do not believe in it nor should the laws be changed to reflect it. I don't want my taxes going to a man and his multiple wives. Better for them to live in a country where such marriages are considered more normal. That is why people who wish to retain four or more wives really should live in a society that condones such a practice.

Let us assume that the ratio of women to men in Malta is 3 to 1, so for example if there are 1 million men there are 3 million women, what will happen to the extra 2 million women? will they all be nuns so they can't get married.

Let us assume that the ratio of women to men in Oman is 1 to 3, so for example if there are 3 million men there are 1 million women, what will happen to the extra 2 million men ? will they all be suicide bombers since they can't get married ?

Those women can have fulfilling lives with their familes, friends and jobs. To assume that women have to marry is doing a disservice to them. Trust me, there are more things in life than marriage that women can choose from. Marriage is not a bad thing but it isn't the only thing either.

My Omani's ex's grandfather had 8 so he did not obey the Islamic laws regarding 4. His father has two and he doesn't live with either. What does that say in regards to the children made from these two marriages? I have a friend whose husband married another woman and she does not like it. He did not even gain her approval as first wife for this second marriage to occur. He barely even sees his children from the first marriage. So polygamy is not always the answer to solve the ills of society. Some people like it and some don't.

I think it is over-generalizing to think polygamy would solve the world's problems. There is no need to enforce this to people who do not believe in it. That is why people who wish to retain four or more wives really should live in a society that condones such a practice.

He can't have 8 at the same time, maybe he married 8 in total meaning he divorce some of them but must have maximum 4 at any time. And polygamy is not a must but optional for men who want to marry more than one wife.

He died in his 90's and he first married very young. But from what I understood from my ex each wife had their own house. Out of that union there were more than 24 daughters. I do not remember the number of sons. But I do know that he has a huge family.

Let us assume that the ratio of women to men in Malta is 3 to 1, so for example if there are 1 million men there are 3 million women, what will happen to the extra 2 million women? will they all be nuns so they can't get married.Turkey or some other muslim country would invade and snatch up 2 mil women.

And make those 2 mil women happy as can be.

Now what would happen if there were 3 million men and 1 million women?

What Ice, you mean NO MUSLIM has had more than 4 wives at one time ?

Now what would happen if there were 3 million men and 1 million women?

The country will be invaded by the US and many men will be killed.

The country will be invaded by the US and many men will be killed.So according to your BS that would be a good thing. Helping societies problems an all taking care of those poor unfortunate women.

Something a famous muslim leader did more than once ... right?

Yeah Jack, that would work.

if French tax payers will have to pay for ayan hirsi ali freedom of insulting, they can pay also for Muslims wives

1. Which french taxpayers are paying for Hirsi Ali ?

2. Why should they pay for multiple wives ?

3. How are the two issues related ?

4. Would you be willing to be wife 2, 3 or 4 ?

I was watching Bobbie on france 24 and made the connection
Now she desperately seeking citizenship and money for protection cause US can't afford anymore
And is fair : Europeans have this high sense of Voltairenism "I do not agree but I will fight for you to have the right to speak"
But she just offended, didn't really want to open an honest debate
So why [dnt know French laws but let's assume citizens pay] French Muslims should pay while they're denied an innocent multiple wives contribution
She also sold tons of books, what does she want

Correct me if I am wrong but France is a predominantly Roman Catholic society so to acknowledge multiple wives goes against the values and teachings of that particular country. I don't see anything innocent from my own religious perspective when it comes to multiple wives. Again, if people want that kind of contribution paid towards having more than one wife live in a society that condones it. I don't see the need to change laws to reflect a practice that does not mirror the predominate values of that country or any other country that does not recognize polygamy.

Let us assume that the ratio of women to men in Malta is 3 to 1, so for example if there are 1 million men there are 3 million women, what will happen to the extra 2 million women? will they all be nuns so they can't get married.
it's a ratio of 1:1
let's assume the ratio of population in oman is 3 men to 1 woman.
what are they gonna do? masturbate? noooooooooooooooooooooooooo
can a woman marry 3 guys...?

No I think you got it messed up.

Holland pulled funding for her support.

But independent people are contributing towards her security.

I have.

We need more people like Hirsi Ali.

Had to chose france cause miss "I hate Islam" chose France lol
But I remember the arrogance of the french in forbidding the mention of Christian roots in European constitution
Is one of the most liberal countries in Europe : Italian political terrorists went there officially cause they welcomed them
Your beloved "predominant Roman Catholic" has no meaning in secular countries, let alone in france

No I think you got it messed up.

Holland pulled funding for her support.

But independent people are contributing towards her security.

I have.

We need more people like Hirsi Ali.
Fine then she can remain in America or come to Canada
No need to go begging through Bernard Henry Levy and co
Europe needs peaceful dialogue and confrontation, no need of the hatred she spreads

BTW did you know that the Mullah of possible the Grand Supreme All Powerful Muslim council of France asked for a Moratorium on the 1905 law that prohibits state funding for building houses of worship for 5-10 years so that....

wait for it...

Muslims can catch up with the number of mosques they require in France.

One more for Ripleys Believe it or Not.

I agree fully with Wudjab. If they worked, and are Canadians by law, then it's fine for the tax payers to support them. However, if they don't work, and can't support their wives, then why marry them to begin with? or why migrate if you can't support them? To me, this is violating the condition that he should treat his wives justly...because obviously they will be living in poverty and not getting their share of rights.

It's about time they get up their asses and work and take care of their family like real men! Ah, they disgust me :bored:

Your beloved "predominant Roman Catholic" has no meaning in secular countries, let alone in france

Exactly and France is especially famous for its decadence.

Lets get back to the topic, which is Polygamy.

Sophis. Whats your take on the topic being discussed ?

If a woman wants to have a husband who has extra wives and doesn't mind sharing his body and time then I guess that is their issue to deal with. Not everyone's cup of tea and if France doesn't want to recognize such marriages then as a secular country is their right to do so. Being that it is such an "immoral" place to live right? Then why choose to live there and not somewhere that reflects one's own values????

Being that it is such an "immoral" place to live right? Then why choose to live there and not somewhere that reflects one's own values????

Since France colonolised so many countries, took their wealth, forced them to adopt French values, it is only fair that people from countries that were colonised by the French are allowed to enter France and settle there.

They can live there of course, but they have to abide by the rules of the adopted country. I don't agree about colonization because always done in a brutal manner--but call a spade a spade and do know that throughout human history countries from around the world were taken over by foreign forces not just France.

Now we have these countries where people are immigrating from different regions and reason dictates they have to live by some form of conseus ruling. Imagine all the exapts in the Gulf demanding equal rights under the laws of their own country and demanding to have those rights implemented in a particular Gulf country--such rights that may or may not reflect Islamic teaching.

I just do not feel that people who practice polygamy have rights in countries where it is not practiced. I am not going to change my mind about this. I feel if you want to have your multiple wives recognized then live in a country that accepts that type of marriage.

They can but they have to abide by those rules. I don't agree about colonization but now that we have these countries where people are immigrating from different regions they have to live by some form of conseus ruling. I just do not feel that people who practice polygamy have rights in countries where it is not practiced. I am not going to change my mind about this. I feel if you want to have your multiple wives recognized then live in a country that accepts that type of marriage.

I do agree that people must abide by the laws of the country, otherwise that would create anarchy, chaos and disorder. However, the general attitude of "if these people don't like it, then they should go home" is incredibly racist and ridiculous to say the least - especially when they were colonised by the West and stripped of their livelihoods.

In recent times, this has even extended to the Iraqis being bombed from their homes by the West and they have to seek asylum.

But if polygamy is not recognized in a country like France and they married illegally how is this racist? They KNOW they are not suppose to marry more than one wife. It isn't racist. And if they try to come to France or any country that does not practice polygamy WHY are they bringing more grief upon themselves? Why not find a nation that will accept these wives? Doesn't seem racist to me. Why would it be racist????

Anything to say about the original topic of this post, Sophis ?

But if polygamy is not recognized in a country like France and they married illegally how is this racist? They KNOW they are not suppose to marry more than one wife. It isn't racist. And if they try to come to France or any country that does not practice polygamy WHY are they bringing more grief upon themselves? Why not find a nation that will accept these wives? Doesn't seem racist to me. Why would it be racist????


That is not racist. They should abide by the laws of the country.

The general attitude of the participants of this thread is racist, with the "they should go home" - I think that they have a right to belong in the country they are residing in, yet they are doing something illegal. Just because someone is doing something illegal, does not mean you strip them of their citizenship!

I do agree that people must abide by the laws of the country, otherwise that would create anarchy, chaos and disorder. However, the general attitude of "if these people don't like it, then they should go home" is incredibly racist and ridiculous to say the least - especially when they were colonised by the West and stripped of their livelihoods.

In recent times, this has even extended to the Iraqis being bombed from their homes by the West and they have to seek asylum.
since my country didn't colonise anybody, i'm not racist for asking those who want polygamy here to go back.

Anything to say about the original topic of this post, Sophis ?

You're obviously blind wudjub.

since my country didn't colonise anybody, i'm not racist for asking those who want polygamy here to go back.

It's nice to know that your country did not go bombing, colonising and terrorising people.

Although it also good to know that it was colonized.

My personal views on polygamy are pretty strong. I disagree with it. Always will. THAT will never change.

I try to see things in a logical manner. You have people wanting their polygamous marriages recognized in a country that does not or will never recognize polygamous marriagse so why bother with it? What is wrong living in an Islamic country where these wives will receive help if needed for whatever reason i.e. benefits, healthcare, education, etc....seems to me if couples like these find an accepting society where the marriages will be seen as being normal then that is the society you should live in. I wouldn't live in a society that I considered far different from what I am used to. Don't get me wrong, I don't think of these people being less than me. Just different in how they practice their beliefs. But not everyone believes the same, if we did we would be all Christian or Muslim, Jew or Hindu or Agnostic...doesn't matter. Everyone lives their lives according to what they were brought up with and what they consider to be of value. To ask a country to just accept these types of marriages is too much. Better to live somewhere that is not stressful and you can find acceptance at the government and religious level.

Sophy:

I don't think anyone is implying they should be stripped away from their citizenship simply because they did something illegal. It is if they continue doing something illegal and they choose not to change, then their citizenship can be stripped away since it is the country's prerogative. Though, it would be fair to see that western countries do recognize that this is a religious right for Muslims and should respect it, provided it only affects the Muslim community, and the multimple wives were married according to Muslim teachings. Oh and the men who choose to marry more than one can support and afford such a huge family!

However, this topic is mainly about Muslim men in western countries who marry more than one and don't work to support their families as they should, don't you think that is wrong? Here is where I agree that the tax payers should not be paying for his "luxury" of having four wives while he sit at home doing nothing...I don't think you would disagree with that. Correct?

There are two problems :

1. Asking the host country to accept this practice of polygamy.
2. Asking the host country to subsidize this practice of polygamy.

In that case if it makes me a racist to tell these people to go back to where they came from, color me racist.

Polygamy is a blessing from Allah because the number of muslims is highly increasing and one reason for this increase is POLYGAMY. Fortunately, this does not make some people happy.

That is fine if it is practiced in an Islamic state but not in a secular one where Chrisitanity is the predominant religion and the laws reflecting marriage. Muslims cannot force their beliefs on others just like Christian beliefs cannot be forced on Muslims.

This is clearly discrimination against muslims

IF that is the case then Saudi Arabia is on the top of the list for discriminating against all religions. You have to acknowledge the fact that Christians ARE discriminated against in Islamic states. Quit acting the martyr. Discrimination is prevelant everywhere by all governments regarding ALL religions. THAT is fact.

That is fine if it is practiced in an Islamic state but not in a secular one where Chrisitanity is the predominant religion and the laws reflecting marriage. Muslims cannot force their beliefs on others just like Christian beliefs cannot be forced on Muslims.

Are muslims forcing Christians to marry mutiple wifes?

Beside that a Muslim man can marry chaste Chrsitian woman as 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife. And hopefully she will convert to Islam and be a believer.

To ask a country to just accept these types of marriages is too much. Better to live somewhere that is not stressful and you can find acceptance at the government and religious level.
I understand your racism but once as country you accept to be opened to almost everything, I don't see the reason for a selective charity

You might not see it and you might not understand it but a country STILL has a right to practice selective charity.

I am going to say this again. How is it racism to not accept polygamy? Polygamy is not a race but a practice. Get your facts straight. I don't have issues with Arabs, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Orientals etc....but I was raised to believe polygamy is wrong, that marriage has to be one woman to one man. I fail to see a race in that equation. Get off it already.

Marianna, more to the point.

Islam is not a race.

but I was raised to believe polygamy is wrong, that marriage has to be one woman to one man.

Not everthing you were taught is right.

You were raised to believe drinking alcohok is right, while it's very wrong for countless reasons.

You were raised to believe eating pork is right, while it's wrong and bad for countless reasons.

And I believe that you were raised to believe that adultery is wrong, and polygamy gives the solution to avoide adultery.

I am going to say this again. How is it racism to not accept polygamy? Polygamy is not a race but a practice. Get your facts straight. I don't have issues with Arabs, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Orientals etc....but I was raised to believe polygamy is wrong, that marriage has to be one woman to one man. I fail to see a race in that equation. Get off it already.

Enough I read only your posts in this thread to know how your mind is shaped .
That's not the point .
You live in a country that treated pope JP II like a beggar when he came in visit cause he was running a fierce campaign against death penalty .
Same sex relations are against nature yet they are well accepted in the west and one day they will be part of the family status .
No, you cannot be selective when you live in a country that gives choices to everybody and in every circumstance : if you say yes to death penalty then you have to say yes to polygamy as well .
When you show yourself so shocked and horrified for how human rights are not respected in Gulf or in KSA, mind that is the law of the place for example not to accept foreign spouses or not to give freedom of choice when switching job, so you can't expect much regarding such issues .
Call it racism or bigotism, thing is that as the average American you're probably tired of this political correcteness and openness and you are starting to see it's bringing troubles specially when minorities are involved .

if you say yes to death penalty then you have to say yes to polygamy as well

What a load of absolute twaddle that is.

I don't agree with same sex relations and it angers me to see them recognized at all....but I don't equate it to what Muslims do. Totally opposite but I will tell you I don't want polygamy practice in my country. We are not used to it and we think it is wrong. Period. I don't want my tax dollars spent on polygamy and I don't want my tax dollars spent on anything about same sex relations since you brought it up amo....I fail to see how is racist. How about we bring some of our Christian values to an Islamic state? Wouldn't fly right? What are your thoughts on this? Would not be kosher. I would love to see Christians ask for their rights in countries not Christian. Would be quite interesting to see.

I'm against same sex marriage as well.

I guess that would make me a racist.

Christianity can't provide anything to solve society corruption in the western countries, that is why they go for secular.

And we like it that way.

Now off to the madrassa for some more indoctrination for you.

People migrating to another country usually do for need
You can tell them to go home ok, but you can't tell the same to those born and raised to go somewhere else because same as you they are working and paying taxes for things that is far from their morals like your alcohol
Non working people like it or not are included in the welfare scheme, Americans or not
Which Christian values do you want to bring in an Islamic state
Can you tell me ?

Freedom of Religion ?

Hows that for a starter ?

And we like it that way.

Now off to the madrassa for some more indoctrination for you.

Do you even know the meaning of madrassa?

People migrating to another country usually do for need
You can tell them to go home ok, but you can't tell the same to those born and raised to go somewhere else because same as you they are working and paying taxes for things that is far from their morals like your alcohol
Non working people like it or not are included in the welfare scheme, Americans or not
Which Christian values do you want to bring in an Islamic state
Can you tell me ?

I don't have issues with people living in a western country but we have laws set for things such as polygmay. Bigomy is not an option.

As far as christian values....Well for starters, being able to openly practice one's faith in such a country as Saudi Arabia without fear of imprisonment or worse.

Now fill in the standard 'Seal of the Prophets' 'One True Religion' 'Your Faith is Corrupted' line in here.

I don't have issues with people living in a western country but we have laws set for things such as polygmay. Bigomy is not an option.
Yes but politicians you or your fellow citizens elected, will come and propose a law in the parliament, not because Muslims imposed it but because they asked for it and according to the laws of your country they have power to do so
Then the parliament will reject it or there will be protests in the streets, but that's how democracy works over there

As far as christian values....Well for starters, being able to openly practice one's faith in such a country as Saudi Arabia without fear of imprisonment or worse.
Yes that's the first but is not a Christian value, not only at least, is a principle of the so called civil societies
Bring me others please

HOW is not being able to openly practice one's faith not a value? I fail to see how it is not. If I was to wear a crucifix which to me and to many other Catholics is an intrinsic value of our faith and have it taken away that is taking away my right to openly express my faith, my values, to not allow me to gather openly with other Catholics in a country like saudi arabia which is a value, is a another right taken away. Maybe YOU don't see these as values but WE do. Talk about discrimination. Saudi is on top of it in many many many ways.

I didn't say is not
I said is not only the Christians to have it as value
Can you list others

A christian can wear the crucifix under the clothes, where is the problem?

But I don't wear mine under my clothes. Why should I list others when I cannot even PRACTICE my faith in a country like Saudi. I think not being able to openly show my faith in God the way I was raised is quite enough. Imagine coming to America and there were NO mosques, nothing and you could not openly show your faith in God at all and I mean at all. That is why I choose to never live or visit Saudi because of this. And if people feel that they cannot openly display every single thing about their faith in a society then live in a society where you CAN.

A christian can wear the crucifix under the clothes, where is the problem?

they are not contented with this icetea!!!!

they want to show off their cross to everyone, so people will think oh what good christians are they!!!

I don't know where it says in the Bible you should wear a cross?

no i'm not contended with wearing my cross on the inside, because my cross is part of my identity, like my wedding ring.
it's part of my tradition. like your hijab and turban or whatever dress code you want to wear.
so i avoid going to places where wearing a cross would be illegal.

Or go to a place where it is prohibited and then throw god almight hissy fit that your 'right's are being violated.

The Kaba'a is located in Saudi Arabia, all Muslims around the world pray toward the Kaba'a. You can't expect a Chruch (for example)to be located there where other people worship others beside Allah.

It's also interesting when people like Tea and Clouds post, what their concept of tolerance really is.

For them tolerance means we must tolerate Islam. Not the other way around.

Why should I list others when I cannot even PRACTICE my faith in a country like Saudi. I think not being able to openly show my faith in God the way I was raised is quite enough.

Well the way we live our religions are different
You need symbols, we can be Muslims everywhere
Forbidding hijab makes a problem [not cause is a religious symbol but cause for many of us is a must] but as written in the Quran, if possible we must migrate in a place where we are not oppressed, otherwise we must try our best where we are
You can't list the others because Chrisian values are the same of Islam and is not a coincidence If you read the verses of sura an nisa, bani israel or al anam , you will find a chart very similar to the ten commandments
You will never move to KSA cause is difficult for you to adapt to such a different culture and because is a boring country [that's what media say]
In the end though, everything is possible, you can drink, have sex with your boyfriend without being married, have a party [ok in private but if necessary you can make a jump to Bahrein]
Is also possible for pastors to enter and spread their religion same as is possible for those here to convert people : maybe we don't grant much flexibility but in the end those who fight for freedom of expression come here in open breach of the rules
This says a lot on tolerance and respect preached to others
I think only KSA is the less merciful , in Iran for example there is a consistent community of Jews : difficult to have reliable news from there but apart some jailing with the accusation of being Israeli spies, they're respected
Anyway, if the Constitution and the laws of your country are explicitly inspired by Christian principles, I accept a confrontation on the issue .
But if not, we can discuss why Vatican principles are not respected or introduced in Saudi Arabia, not why Christians ones are forbidden by law

Hey Amo, most of Western Civilization is based on Judeo-Christian principals.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

"based" is something
"explicitly inspired" completely another song

Whats the name of your song ?

Societies don't restrict the number of children you have...why should they restrict the number of other adults who choose to be part of a family?

So I take it you're coming out in favour of polygamy ?

And that the state and (my) tax dollars should subsidize your lifestyle ?

Btw, re. your "tax dollars" issue which you've said is your main concern, what's the difference? If each of those women were married to a different man in the same position, wouldn't they get the same benefits? How about if they were just unemployed and single?

Someone else's family structure is I think a private matter. But if your issue is really that you don't like providing social welfare for your fellow citizens when you feel they are not providing for themselves as they could...then why tie it to the polygamy matter?

Because... it is directly tied to Polygamous men who have (ilegally) brought in multiple wives.

Illegal immigration and benefit fraud are serious problems in your country and mine. But I don't accept that having more or fewer wives is really the issue. I imagine that vast majority of illegal immigrants and fraudsters are single men...as in most places.

The Kaba'a is located in Saudi Arabia, all Muslims around the world pray toward the Kaba'a. You can't expect a Chruch (for example)to be located there where other people worship others beside Allah.

Exactly. That would be like building a mosque in the Vatican!

Exactly. That would be like building a mosque in the Vatican!BS sophi ... there are mosque all over italy and I'm sure very "close" to the vatican.

There is not a single church of any kind in Saudi.

Oh, the classic comparing the Vatican (size of a couple of city blocks) to Saudi Arabia defense.

Vatican City : 0.4 sq. KM
Saudi Arabia : 2,149,690 SQ KM

That makes sense.

It's a personal attack :D

BS sophi ... there are mosque all over italy and I'm sure very "close" to the vatican.

There is not a single church of any kind in Saudi.


They are in Oman and Qatar, and the other countries in the Arabian Peninsula, around KSA.

Saudi Arabia ?

Saudi Arabia ?

KSA does not even allow its own women to drive, do you really expect it to provide the freedom to manifest religious belief?

KSA does not provide the freedom of expression, association, it discriminates against women, it violates all sorts of Human Rights against its own citizens, both Muslim men and women - so really, them discriminating against religious minorities should not be surprising.

KSA does not even allow its own women to drive, do you really expect it to provide the freedom to manifest religious belief?

KSA does not provide the freedom of expression, association, it discriminates against women, it violates all sorts of Human Rights against its own citizens, both Muslim men and women - so really, them discriminating against religious minorities should not be surprising.You mean the very place that all muslims pray too. The very place that "should" be representative of Islam ... real Islam?

Most of what you are calling violating the rights of muslims ... come from exactly where. Did they dream this stuff up?

Again nothing personal against you. I've always liked you and made that clear.

But really give us a break ... :hyper:

You mean the very place that all muslims pray too. The very place that "should" be representative of Islam ... real Islam?

Most of what you are calling violating the rights of muslims ... come from exactly where. Did they dream this stuff up?

Again nothing personal against you. I've always liked you and made that clear.

But really give us a break ... :hyper:

I personally don't think that KSA is representative of Islam - they say it is. But they oppress the weak, and leave the rich - that is called ignorance.

Jack, it is not just the western countries that came up with the the idea of the protection of human rights after WWII.

The concept/theory of human rights and the rule of law is in Shariah law, although it is kept in the books that accumulate dust and does not manifest itself in practice due to political and social problems. However, note that the concept of what entails Human Rights varies from society to society - there is such a thing as cultural relativism.

In islamic countries, the number of spinsters is very low compared to western countries? Do you know the reason?

Well let's hope they will not become jealous of one another.

Is it time for scholars to set rules?


Examples:

- In what conditions a man can re-marry.
- The wife's knowledge (not necessarily acceptance, or yeah ... what about acceptance) before the husband decides to re-marry.
- Depending on the man's financial status, can he afford another wife + children? If he cannot, then clearly he cannot be fair (financially speaking).

Were there any scholars who set certain rules? Or is it still open for anyone who wants to re-marry to re-marry, even if he didn't have to or even couldn't afford it?

From the Islamic point of view what I know that the man marry up to 4 based on one condition which is to treat them in justic (3adl). If he fears that he can't meet that condition then he should marry one only.

From all the re-marriages I've seen, the man never thought about the Justice part. No 'fear' at all.

The man would see it as his right to get married, no matter what the situation he lived in was. At the end, someone is going to be hurt. Either the first wife, who sees that her husband started treating her badly. Or the children, who start to see much, much less of their father. Or even the second wife who, after some time, feels that her husband wasn't paying much attention to her, and found out that he married a third wife. In some cases, even the second wife ends up being divorced!

Mashaakel, Mashaakel. (Problems, problems) But the same story is continuing over and over again with all the re-marriages I've heard of. From all the cases, maybe 1-2% max is a 'Happily Ever After'. (After overcoming the problems of course)

So I see that if things were sorted out, if rules were put, it would be much easier for everyone. And men will think twice before re-marrying and know that it is not a game.

From the Islamic point of view what I