Now that the Photography contest for the month has closed I have a few comments.

I think members should restrict the type of comments they make regarding the picture - comments of the type - it looks fake, it looks edited, it looks like a pro shot, I don't believe any member took it, etc, etc.

These kinds of comments influence members who have not yet voted and thats not fair.

Once voting has closed, then feel free to openly debate what you thought about the picture.

Hallo mr freedom of speech
If the comment is reliable why not

Have you missed taking your meds ?

How do you know if the comment is reliable ?

and you missed the last line

Once voting has closed, then feel free to openly debate what you thought about the picture.

Hallo mr freedom of speech
If the comment is reliable why not
What makes a comment reliable?

I think woody makes a good point. The poll thread would be better if it were used just for voting.. then maybe after the poll is closed, a critique thread is opened.. possibly with before and after shots or whatever..

Yes but we are not idiots
We are not all specialists, but we have brains
I had a couple of things to say in the mods polls for example, but I kept quiet just to be polite and not to make troubles as always, but am sure that others think same as me
Say it before or after, I don't see the difference
Just my two cents

Not worth 2c's, amo.

Saying it before the poll closes unfairly influences people who have not voted and influences the poll outcome.

Saying it after the poll closes is a fair discussoin.

Hallo mr freedom of speech
If the comment is reliable why not

Wudjab is right here. It's very unfair to comment on while voting is on progress. It's like during an Election day, a man is to tick his prefered politician when an official at the ballot box suddenly talks badly about the person he's going to choose or highlighting the bests of his opponents.

Is this fair ?

I agree with W, T and with TB...I think when people make comments about a photo it CAN influence some. By allowing no comments until the end it will cover all bases. Therefore the votes are clean and unsullied. Maybe some people might not be influenced by the comments but SOME would be.

Comments like those can have great influence on how the voting goes, I agree with Wudjab, the voting thread should be locked until voting is over, only then should members be allowed to share their views.

Saying it after the poll closes is a fair discussoin.

Fair discussion is unknown word in ES :D
It can be more dangerous to do it later, cause let's say a cheater wins , what do administrators do ?
T4L will go mad after complaints [job which he loves anyway :cute: ]
I understand your point but your reasoning is more dangerous
In the end is more convenient to forbid discussion before and after
But that would be boring

There is always the PM system if a member believes there is something wrong with the picture.

But I think you're finding yourself very lonely in this discussion.

When a member goes: It looks fake, they don't really have any evidence of it being fake. The picture doesn't get removed, because it isn't fake, but other members will go "hey, wait a minute, maybe that member is right" - and people who thought the picture was nice will change their mind because of a false accusation.

I DON'T agree with Wudjab!

Imagine that! :p

He is often thought-provoking. And sometimes just provoking! :p

Buuuuut, seriously folks...

There's at least another side to the coin. When we read what other people say about a picture, it helps us SEE the picture better.

It's true that it MIGHT influence in a way that has nothing to do with the photography. But it might also influence us to look at the picture better.

And some people read something and then say, Heck, somebody said that...why don't I do the opposite?

No, I don't think we can stop people influencing people. And I think in the end it's all a wash.

Anyway, how will I know which picture to vote for if I can't read the comments? I guess I'll have to PM my pals and ask, "Which one should I pick!" ;)

but it's not fair to say 'erm...that looks fake, how comes it was allowed in the contest'.

btw..where's the photography competition thread?

I DON'T agree with Wudjab!

Imagine that! :p

He is often thought-provoking. And sometimes just provoking! :p

Buuuuut, seriously folks...

There's at least another side to the coin. When we read what other people say about a picture, it helps us SEE the picture better.

It's true that it MIGHT influence in a way that has nothing to do with the photography. But it might also influence us to look at the picture better.

And some people read something and then say, Heck, somebody said that...why don't I do the opposite?

No, I don't think we can stop people influencing people. And I think in the end it's all a wash.

Anyway, how will I know which picture to vote for if I can't read the comments? I guess I'll have to PM my pals and ask, "Which one should I pick!" ;)


Nah... it's asking on what you think of the picture, not your pals.

Nah... it's asking on what you think of the picture, not your pals.
great answer.
and if one has no opinion, he should keep out of voting.

What's the big deal?
It's an online forum.
There are no 'prizes' involved. You don't get any recognition except from people you've never met but know online.
The people really just vote cause they got enough free time to vote.
It's an online forum.
It helps the photographer get feedback.
It helps the photographer work harder next time when he doesn't win.
It's an online forum.

Bleah.

No one says don't comment.

Say what you like after the polls close.

That's the whole point.
Nobody gives a shit after the polls close anyhow.

OK. I've said my piece.

Lock the thread.

^^ If the photographer really wants feedback he can ask for it in an independant thread in the Arts Sabla. Other members did the same. But if a photographer is looking for real constructive critisism in the Member's lounge, well then he's looking in the wrong place!

Unless comments like "It's fake." "It's cooool" "I don't think an ES member actually took that" is something the photographer can benefit from?

Nah... it's asking on what you think of the picture, not your pals.

You know, I was kind of teasing about that! ;)

But there is a larger point to what I was saying:

"No man is an island entire of itself".

It's not really true that we look at pictures or read books or look at clothes and decide what we think about them in isolation. Others often help us decide what WE think..

I know that reading the comments on voting for anything helps me decide. It rarely changes my vote, but it helps me think things through.

If you really want to keep the vote uninfluenced you would also need to hide the partial results.

Don't you think people look at the votes and say: "Yeah, I'm going with the winner!" Or "Wow, it's neck and neck; why don't I help the one who's one vote behind?" Or "That poor guy didn't get ANY votes."

I think people are influenced by all kinds of things and you can't really help it.

But if Wudjab wants this rule change and people agree with him, I don't really mind. Those are just my thoughts...

I think UMk put it perfectly.

Okay, if Wudjab and UmKay are both against me, I yield me! :)

I actually agree with wudjab which is why i didn't comment on the pics and just voted for the pic I liked.

Say what you like after the polls close.

That's not the issue
Try to be solid sometimes
The real problem is whether or not editing must be allowed in a photo competition
Simple as that
Once you do not allow photoshopping, comments will do no harm

Please define what you mean by 'editiing'.

That's what the adm must fix
Once you allow and say publicly which are the edited ones or you do not allow at all, there is no problem
The theme was light, editing can change a picture completely

I agree, most pictures can be improved by editing..but I think when you edit it has to be one of two ways: One is very subtly, to enhance the original beauty of the image, in such a way that it doesn't look edited, and remains faithful to the original composition and vision. The other is to do something overtly unusual to it, so that although it's obviously been changed, that change is original and interesting enough to be considered part of the creative art.


The pedant Brit has a point
I'd allow only in the first case and would say it transparently which are edited and which not
The second case is not a photo competition anymore
If not a big deal for the mods, they might do a double competition
Why not

But not allowing a minimum of comment/discussion, would make the competition less attractive [a forum is based on words] and allowing them just after results are out, would increase frictions

suggestion:

in submission, maybe the photographer has to submit both pics, the original one, and the one proposed for the competition, so mods can decide on what level of editing was acceptable.

Amo,

Did you take part ?

You seem to have a big stake in the discussion.

suggestion:

in submission, maybe the photographer has to submit both pics, the original one, and the one proposed for the competition, so mods can decide on what level of editing was acceptable.

Sounds logical to me.

How can that prove anything ? What if there is only one version ?

How can that prove anything ? What if there is only one version ?
that's true as well ^

Which is why my original point still stands.

Let the competition be a competition.

If you want to discuss technical aspects of the picture, do so after the voting has closed.

Amo,

Did you take part ?

You seem to have a big stake in the discussion.

I must put my nose wherever I can :D

That much is apparent... considering you didn't even vote.

Any American can comment on Obama while elections not yet started.

I must put my nose wherever I can

As a male not very uncommon, but as a female that's something quite nasty to do

i agree with wudjab, but we cant just have a poll, so as minerva said, both copies should be submitted n then the (mod) can decide if there was too much editing for this competition or not!

i think every1 will be satisfied becouse the mod has already checked n is sure its original!

n another solution, if there's an option to hide the poll till the end of the competition, no1 sees who got the most votes!

i always try to makeup my mind nvote then read what every1 else has said

n as mentioned.. its only an online forum !!! no need to make it all a big issue.. who cares..

If you don't allow comments that say "I think this is over-edited and I dont like it", then why allow comments that say "I think that shot's great, so it gets my vote!"?

Both are influencing in their own way, and that applies in every poll. There's a simple solution: All polls accept votes only, but you can't post in them until the poll is closed. Otherwise the moderators will be in an impossible position of trying to define what is a comment and what is an "influencing" comment.

Personally I think it's a wee bit sensitive: In any popularity contest, you're allowed to debate about it before you cast your vote right?! What's the biggie?!

But...while we're on suggestions...I did suggest in both photo competition threads that AFTER the contest, the original (shrunk to fit obviously) as well as the entry were then shown side by side, which could give the opportunity for people to learn about these techniques: I personally don't even know how to start using Photoshop..so I'd love to get educated about the process - after the poll.

Mimo I agree completely.

But...

What I am commenting about is the comments of the type

"It looks fake"
"I don't believe the member took this picture"

etc etc.

Saying you don't believe someone took the picture is perhaps an unfair accusation. All posts here I guess have to be taken on trust that they are not a copyright infringement. If someone says that, they'd better show why.

But "it looks fake" is an opinion, based on personal taste, surely? Not an eloquent one, but then the Sabla would be pretty small if that were a bar to posting!

wudjab, any American can say Obama looks fake or he doesn't hate muslims, etc.

Do you think it will affact the votes?

Mimo I agree completely.

But...

What I am commenting about is the comments of the type

"It looks fake"
"I don't believe the member took this picture"

etc etc.

yeah those shouldn't be said even

I think no problem in saying them, I gave Obama example too.

Yah everyone has the right o comment on the picture during the votes. In contrary it's the best idea when a member votes and say why his/her vote went to that picture. Besides, the members' nicks who took the pictures are not mentioned so influencing others basing on commenting is OK.

And Obama was an example :D ( Freedom of commenting ).

See.. you can say what you want about Obama, because he has the right to reply and set the record straight.

If I submit a picture and people start saying it looked photoshopped or fake or whatever.. since I have to stay anonimous, I cannot reply. I cannot set the record straight. I cannot say.. no.. that is no fake.

This happens in the poetry thread too.. where I mostly participate. People say things like "this sounds copied" or "eloquent? Who uses that word anyway! It doesn't even make sense!" etc.. and you can't explain. You can't say.. well if you look at it this way, you will understand the meaning. Or that is not copied.. it's my original idea and work.

So on this basis, I think negative comments or all comments should be reserved for another thead.

i felt good when they said my picture looked photoshoped n edited when it wasnt ! hehhe

Even if Obama will set the record straight after a comment that doesn't mean people will believe him, so it is a matter of opinion same goes if someone said the picture is fake, it is his opinion because other people can make their own conclusions and form an opinion which might be same as the comment or different one.

Bottom line a good picture should be able to defend itself without the owner help, it should lift itself up to the challenge and win the battle and as they say a picture speaks more than 1000 words.

I think the point is so clear! dont know why all of you arguing..just shut up all of you and get to a middle solution.

1-no commenting during polling.
2-The nosy, hypocrite, or expert ones (how ever you cann yourself) can say all what they want after that!.

easy and simple

Freedom of speech!!!!!!

Are you blind Diabian !! you still can say your "Intelligent" which is what you calling " Freedom of speech" once is the pull finished ... is that hard to process !!!

Freedom of speech, anywhere & anytime, is Freedom of speech!!!!!!

the argument would have gone in favour of the thread opener with some people if he wasn't wudjab. ;)

wudjab was not able to sell his idea and didn't attend my questions above.

If this poll should have no comments, then I think all polls shouldn't as well because the argument is people will get influnced by the comments.

However, I dont think that commenting should be disallowed because the rule of the competetion covers that the photo must not be fake, taken by you, etc.

So really unconstructive comments like "it's fake" shouldnt be taken in a bad light, they should be taken as compliments for how awesome your photo is :p

I think comments should be allowed ... makes the poll threads more fun and intresting

^ exactly.
i don't get this whole influencing thing to be honest, we're allowed to say what we think of the picture, and so does everyone else. we're just voicing our opinion.

i'd rather get two genuine votes and not win than get 100 'influenced' votes and win the competition. to me, it's not about winning, it's about what people really think of your work.

it would be a very boring competition if it was just a poll. it's interesting to see what everyone thinks of the submitted shots.

now even though some people said your shot looks unreal/edited/fake, it still won. what does that tell you? ;)

the argument would have gone in favour of the thread opener with some people if he wasn't wudjab. ;)

And one thing for sure is that there wouldn't be any mentioning of Obama.

Now that the Photography contest for the month has closed I have a few comments.

I think members should restrict the type of comments they make regarding the picture - comments of the type - it looks fake, it looks edited, it looks like a pro shot, I don't believe any member took it, etc, etc.

These kinds of comments influence members who have not yet voted and thats not fair.

Once voting has closed, then feel free to openly debate what you thought about the picture.
Not only do I agree with the issue that wudjab has brought up, but I also find that the solution he has proposed is a very good one too. :)

First of all, to be completely honest, I think the opinions of the people taking part in such competitions should outweigh others. Why? Because it's their work that's at stake.


i don't get this whole influencing thing to be honest, we're allowed to say what we think of the picture, and so does everyone else. we're just voicing our opinion.

i'd rather get two genuine votes and not win than get 100 'influenced' votes and win the competition. to me, it's not about winning, it's about what people really think of your work.
Those two points you've made are a bit contradictory don't you think?

First you say you want people to comment during the poll, then you say you would rather get two uninfluenced votes and not win than to get 100 influenced votes and win. :think:

See what wudjab is trying to say is that commenting during a poll goes hand in hand with an influenced vote. :)

To all those people who are whining about their rights to comment, no one is stopping you from doing so. By all means comment your guts out, but I don't see any harm in doing so after the poll has ended :)


I also agree with mimosa, that both negative and positive comments both equally influence peoples judgment when casting their votes. So stopping them altogether would be the best solution.

I think if people are smart enough, they will vote regardless of others' comments. Meaning they will vote for the one the like regardless of the negative comments ,"it's edited...it looks fake"from the other people.

If i think the picture is good..i will vote for it..if not, then i wont...at the same time, i will say what i think.

And i have noticed that a lot of the times people vote for something just because others are voting for that one. It's like they go with the flow.

:no:

and besides, it is a photography competition...it SHOULDN'T BE EDITED!!

^ agree with AE :)

^thank you. i'm glad SOMEONE does....

:p

And one thing for sure is that there wouldn't be any mentioning of Obama.

If not Obama then Clinton.

Even if Obama will set the record straight after a comment that doesn't mean people will believe him, so it is a matter of opinion same goes if someone said the picture is fake, it is his opinion because other people can make their own conclusions and form an opinion which might be same as the comment or different one.

Bottom line a good picture should be able to defend itself without the owner help, it should lift itself up to the challenge and win the battle and as they say a picture speaks more than 1000 words.
And it did. :D

So.. that's not an excuse really. It's not like it's about sour grapes or anything..

There's so many things one could say negatively about all the pictures.. but you keep them to yourself, because each person should vote on how THEY see the pictures.. not on how well other people can influence them.

If there's going to be an influencing game, then it should be on both sides. Don;t make it anonimous and let the photographers try to influence the members to vote for theirs. :cute:

So are you against the motion or for it?

I'm with wudjab, Arabian Prince, Evilfire, Umkhalid, Minerva, marianna, tropikalboy and Nabhan.

After the poll is closed, a seperate thread be opened and all can comment on the pictures.

It's useless to comment later, hit the iron while it is hot.

It's useless to comment later, hit the iron while it is hot.
At least you agree that comments are DOING something.. otherwise, why would it be USEless?

Because the picture already won, so what is the point of commenting, most if not all comments will be +ve. And people will not bother to comment anyway.

ice tea, you are right. i agree. say it when you need to say it. what's the point of commenting later when that person already has an award ? it's actually useless and a waste of time. really.

people should vote coz of their own opinon in liking it. So what if others say negative things about it? if i like it and i think it's nice, i'll vote. i don't let others' comments control my decision.

Because the picture already won, so what is the point of commenting, most if not all comments will be +ve. And people will not bother to comment anyway.
You are saying that all the threads opened by photographers themselves showcasing their work in the art sabla are useless...

You are saying that unless there is something at stake, there's no point in negatively commenting on something..

In short, you are admitting that such comments DO sway the voting.

Therefore, you agree with Wudjab, except.. you'd like that to stay. You'd like to see that happen.


fair enough. your point has been made.

moving along..

ice tea, you are right. i agree. say it when you need to say it. what's the point of commenting later when that person already has an award ? it's actually useless and a waste of time. really.

people should vote coz of their own opinon in liking it. So what if others say negative things about it? if i like it and i think it's nice, i'll vote. i don't let others' comments control my decision.
But you see.. you are contradicting yourself because you believe that one should not let comments influence them.. but you agree that influencing comments be allowed. Of course.. just cos you are not influenced, it doesn't mean others aren't..

Haven't you seen how polls go?

thalia, what i mean is...even if i see others saying negative comments about a picture, if i think it's nice and it qualifies, then yes i will STILL vote for it because I like it.. lol how is that contradicting myself? :os

and others should be smarter than that. they should think on their own and not depend on other peoples' comments.

I have seen how polls go.

what about you? do you not vote for something just because others' said negative things about it?

In short, you are admitting that such comments DO sway the voting.

..

It will not, because I gave Obama example also, do you think people will vote for him or against him because of someone comment?

I don't think so.

Why is this turning into a political debate about Obama? Please stick to the topic and leave the politics for politics sabla.

Originally Posted by Arabian Prince
Those two points you've made are a bit contradictory don't you think?

First you say you want people to comment during the poll, then you say you would rather get two uninfluenced votes and not win than to get 100 influenced votes and win. :think:

See what wudjab is trying to say is that commenting during a poll goes hand in hand with an influenced vote. :)



i was referring to the positively 'influenced' votes in my 2nd point. looked a little off there though, misplaced i think. :D

anyhow, i personally have no problem commenting on the picture after the poll. but i don't see why is it a big deal to have people comment while the competition is still on. i mean, even if it was just a poll, if someone saw a picture with 12 votes, and another with zero posts, they might be influenced as well and vote for the most popular shot. you can't really tell if they're influenced or if it's their own opinion.

the bottom line is, even though i agree that comments whether negative or positive might have a stronger impact, but who's easily influenced is gonna be influenced, whether you allowed the comments or not.

Please stick to the topic and leave the politics for politics sabla.
Ok
Give us your input
Do we have the right or not to express judgements within limits, while poll is on ?
Assuming no one is idiot here, is it possible to say "maybe this pic is photoshopped" "maybe that mod might have remembered to be a mod in the entire two months and not only in the last couple of weeks"
If yes fine, define the limits where we must stop
If not, just close the comments or delete all the sensitive ones

the argument would have gone in favour of the thread opener with some people if he wasn't wudjab. ;)

I wonder why :rolleyes:

^loooooool@ U!

Well I think the best solution for this argument is that to keep the poll data invisible such as the numbers & percentage, and the names of voters for each candidate in the poll. This way, anyone can comment and vote knowing that no one knows what she/he votes for, nor does she/he know who's gotten the most votes so far, which in my opinion affects the voting processes the most. Savvy?

+Salam

^sounds pretty good...some of the polls are already like that..maybe they should all be like that:p

Well I think the best solution for this argument is that to keep the poll data invisible such as the numbers & percentage, and the names of voters for each candidate in the poll. This way, anyone can comment and vote knowing that no one knows what she/he votes for, nor does she/he know who's gotten the most votes so far, which in my opinion affects the voting processes the most.

ditto!
i think the mods should discuss n c if this would be the best solution so that no1 will keep complaining about it, coz eg, in the mods n best member poll we allready know the winner is, n the winner's thread is only to congratulate the member, so if we didnt know the result it'll be more interesting n we all would wana know who won

Well I think the best solution for this argument is that to keep the poll data invisible such as the numbers & percentage, and the names of voters for each candidate in the poll. This way, anyone can comment and vote knowing that no one knows what she/he votes for, nor does she/he know who's gotten the most votes so far, which in my opinion affects the voting processes the most. Savvy?

+Salam
Add to that, no comments allowed .. that would be perfect :rolleyes:

Keep the comments...and maybe only show who's voted for whom after the poll closed?

I'd like to see all polls time-limited, and showing who voted where afterwards...it's always interesting :)

Well I think the best solution for this argument is that to keep the poll data invisible such as the numbers & percentage, and the names of voters for each candidate in the poll. This way, anyone can comment and vote knowing that no one knows what she/he votes for, nor does she/he know who's gotten the most votes so far, which in my opinion affects the voting processes the most. Savvy?

+Salam

I agree. This is the best solution. Commenting should be kept. Without comments the thread would be just 'boring'.:zzz: