Praying passenger removed from plane at NY airport Fri Apr 18, 2:36 AM ET
NEW YORK - A passenger who left his seat to pray in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants' orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard, a witness and the airline said.

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport on Wednesday night, said Ori Brafman, a fellow passenger who spoke about the incident by phone from San Francisco, where he lives.

When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to take his seat, he ignored them, Brafman said. Two friends, who were seated, tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn't stop until after he'd finished his prayers in about 2 minutes, he said.

When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn't interrupt his religious ritual and wasn't trying to be rude. But the attendants summoned a guard to remove him, said Brafman, a writer who had been visiting New York to talk to publishers.

The plane, Flight 9 to San Francisco, took off without the man. It landed at its destination as scheduled, Brafman said.

Robin Urbanski, a spokeswoman for United Airlines, a subsidiary of UAL Corp. with headquarters in Chicago, confirmed the man was taken off the plane and put on another flight Thursday morning.

Urbanski said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which runs area airports, and the Transportation Security Administration, which handles airport security, said Thursday they weren't involved in the incident.

So its not just Muslims who can no longer pray on flights! :os Whatever next? Note how in the article they give a full description of the long beard, black coat etc etc perhaps they thought he was Muslim? If that was the case, I think it hysterically funny that a Jewish man was confused for a Muslim terrorist...:p
Personally I really think the Americans need to relax, theyre gettin awfully uptight about the silliest lil things.:rolleyes:
Comments? Thoughts?

Muslims can pray while seated, and had this story been of a Muslim, I would have blamed him as there was no need to go in unauthorized areas of the plane to pray.

I think safety first regardless…and maybe if that guy was a Muslim, we would have made a big deal out of it…
I usually pray on my seat or wait to pray in the next airport in an empty corner…
I hated when people pray at the back of the plane, blocking the aisle and interrupting others’ convenience… some would even call for a Jama’a…
Plus I find praying very destructive in unusual places…

I agree with you guys, he made a mistake by not following the rules, but I still think the attendant should have been a little flexible and didn't make a big deal out of this!

I agree with you guys, he made a mistake by not following the rules, but I still think the attendant should have been a little flexible and didn't make a big deal out of this!

havnt you heard of the Mexican guy who was shot dead last year and then found out to have some kind of mental retardation!

Once you get onboard, be a good boy! Straight to your seat and shut your mouth up...inappropriate jokes are highly untolerable! :)

The attendants are not robots, they are people. The difference between robots and people is decision making based on circumstances. Robots, on the other hand, follow the instructions blindly.
I agree with what you said, that should have been done by the passenger, but there should be a more flexible procedure that can be applied in some cases such as the one mentioned in this thread ;)

Its his mistake coz he always can pray before or after his trip because this is a safety issue.He couldnt even pray before boarding or at least when the plane is on air and stable.

What safety issue? So someone standing at the back of the plane are now considered a safety issue? What about the ppl waiting to use the bathroom? Ppl walking up and down, kids running around, tripping stewardess? What about the guys standing at the back flirting with the stewardesses? I really doubt its about safety.

having said that I know its not absolutely necessary to make a big deal about saying your prayers in public, but the question is do the airlines have the right to kick you off for praying in the back galley, or making a joke or not stopping your baby from crying? Like i said in the original post - I think theyre being overly neurotic and theyre abusing a law which was put in place to protect EVERYBODY not just air hosties suffering from PMS

I think he should respect the rules of where he is. In the plane, you should respect the flight attendants and listen to what they say. You can always pray in your seat.

What safety issue? So someone standing at the back of the plane are now considered a safety issue? What about the ppl waiting to use the bathroom? Ppl walking up and down, kids running around, tripping stewardess? What about the guys standing at the back flirting with the stewardesses? I really doubt its about safety.

having said that I know its not absolutely necessary to make a big deal about saying your prayers in public, but the question is do the airlines have the right to kick you off for praying in the back galley, or making a joke or not stopping your baby from crying? Like i said in the original post - I think theyre being overly neurotic and theyre abusing a law which was put in place to protect EVERYBODY not just air hosties suffering from PMS

You should be on your seat with seat built on and never remove it unless the Seat built light goes off (WHILE BOARDING),that is a safety RULE .. didnt you know that ?

The flight will never take off if children are playnig around/people standing flirting/etc....


Urbanski said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew.



There is nothing against praying on plane, infact god gave us many options, we can even pray while we are on our seats ( for muslims ) .. I dontk now about that guys religion but he could:

1-Pray before boarding..
2-Pray when the plane is stable on air and the seat build light is off.
3-When the plane lands.

if the stewardess tells you to go and sit down, you must obey, regardless of her reasons. you are not to question.
any opposition is considered confrontation and they have every right to put you off the plane.

if you pray out loudly, that's rude too and you should be taken off the plane. a plane is a small confined space with some 350 or more people in it. everybody has to adhere to the rules otherwise it's chaos and hazardous.

as to that guy praying by the lav door.

bloody show off.

I'd understand if they don't allow us to pray during take-off or landing, but while the plane's in air and everything's stable then I don't see why not. I was on Emirates Air (if I'm not mistaken) and I asked the stewardess if I could pray somewhere, and she said I could pray at the back where they are usually located but I'd have to wait until we took off. In the end I prayed in my seat but the point is they agreed to let me pray. I don't see why it should be a safety issue since you're praying at the very back and not blocking any aisles whatsoever!
EvilFire, sometimes it's only time for prayers while you're in the plane itself and by the time you get to your destination it's way past that time, so it's not like you could've prayed before or something.

I'd understand if they don't allow us to pray during take-off or landing, but while the plane's in air and everything's stable then I don't see why not. I was on Emirates Air (if I'm not mistaken) and I asked the stewardess if I could pray somewhere, and she said I could pray at the back where they are usually located but I'd have to wait until we took off. In the end I prayed in my seat but the point is they agreed to let me pray. I don't see why it should be a safety issue since you're praying at the very back and not blocking any aisles whatsoever!
EvilFire, sometimes it's only time for prayers while you're in the plane itself and by the time you get to your destination it's way past that time, so it's not like you could've prayed before or something.


I think you need to read my post again,I said:

+You can pray when the plane stabe on air but not while taking off or landing.Its a safety issue if the plan take off and you are not straped on your seat .

+As Muslims when we know that we will be travelling at a certain time, we can combine prayers before or after out trips.God love us and made things easy for us :)

So its not just Muslims who can no longer pray on flights! Whatever next? Note how in the article they give a full description of the long beard, black coat etc etc perhaps they thought he was Muslim? If that was the case, I think it hysterically funny that a Jewish man was confused for a Muslim terrorist...
Personally I really think the Americans need to relax, theyre gettin awfully uptight about the silliest lil things.
Comments? Thoughts?you can pray all you want in your seat to not disrupt or delay the flight.

and good try to continue to be victimized ... :rolleyes:

I think he should have asked for permission to use that place for praying. Then he would have a solid case to argue if they kicked him out after the permission.


However, kicking him out of the plane was a way-too-harsh decision to be taken. They could have waited, it would not be the first time for them even to delay the flight, till he was done. Story done!!

I think safety first regardless…and maybe if that guy was a Muslim, we would have made a big deal out of it…
I usually pray on my seat or wait to pray in the next airport in an empty corner…
I hated when people pray at the back of the plane, blocking the aisle and interrupting others’ convenience… some would even call for a Jama’a…
Plus I find praying very destructive in unusual places…

i agree with you.

some people call for a Jama'a? that's so weird!

I admire the guy for his religious practices but you cannot hold up a flight for this. Deadlines have to be met, people need to get to their destination...no time for unexpected delays. I pray in my seat every time I fly. He can do the same.

I admire the guy for his religious practices but you cannot hold up a flight for this. Deadlines have to be met, people need to get to their destination...no time for unexpected delays. I pray in my seat every time I fly. He can do the same.
me too. imagine in a plane full of people of mixed faiths, and 20 catholics decide to recite the rosary (full 20 minutes of praying) on the plane....how annoying for the other faith passengers.
there are places where religion should be a private matter. you and God. no need for external shows. respecting others and not infringing on their rights is a tenet in all religions.

Both are to be blamed. He should wait or ask permission and they have no right to kick him out and make a big deal of it.

You should be on your seat with seat built on and never remove it unless the Seat built light goes off (WHILE BOARDING),that is a safety RULE .. didnt you know that ?



Thanks for the tip:dev: but the passengers were STILL boarding, you know like walkin in the door.....

What I wanted to know is should air hosties have the right to kick passengers off a plane for no real reason?

The question is not about praying and no Mr Jack its not about being a victim :p its about rights?

Thanks for the tip:dev: but the passengers were STILL boarding, you know like walkin in the door.....

What I wanted to know is should air hosties have the right to kick passengers off a plane for no real reason?

The question is not about praying and no Mr Jack its not about being a victim :p its about rights?you you you get off ... i don't like the way you look ... NO they can't and haven't.

Now YOU ... yea I'm talking to YOU ... the one that is refusing to follow the airline policy ... get off.

Yes they have the right ... :p

Since you want to play it out as rights ... :rolleyes:

This reminds me of that case of the school girl who was suspended because she refused to remove her so called "virginity ring".

Rules are rules. Policies are policies. You can't start making exceptions because everyone will want one.

You don't follow the rules - you get out.

Out of the school.
Out of the plane.
Out of the country.. etc

What the man did was wrong, it is all good that he want to recite the prayer but he has to follow the safety rules. It is known that during take off, all the passengers remain seated and no beverages are being offered. He could've waited until take off then did his prayer.

In the end it is about safety and getting the plane boarded quickly so that the pilot can make his/her deadlines. And as a frequent flyer if someone was going to hold up my journey I am more than happy to kick anyone off the plane who is not conforming.

I remember on my way to Dubai there was this French Stewardess getting on the case of a passenger for her anal behavior. When people are on a plane there are rules in place simply for the safety and order of the passengers and for the crew to get their jobs done. I have heard and seen people get kicked off for less than what this Jewish man did. Such is life.

I'm not sure what are the "rights" when you are on a private airplane owned by a private airplane company.

People are expected to take their seats when asked, that's all.

What will happen to me if I am asked to take my seat when people are boarding and I say, "Uhhhhh, no I don't think so! :) "

Do I have a "right" to stay on the flight?

I doubt it...

Somehow, I don't think the orthodox Jews need to hold up flights in order to go places.

First, Safety should be out of questions…
Second, I think in the town of burglars, a policeman would question all unusual behaviors…that is how airports have become after 9/11, it has almost become a common practice especially Europe and America

That guy could have taken his time if his flight was on 10 Sep 2001!

This reminds me of that case of the school girl who was suspended because she refused to remove her so called "virginity ring".

Rules are rules. Policies are policies. You can't start making exceptions because everyone will want one.

You don't follow the rules - you get out.

Out of the school.
Out of the plane.
Out of the country.. etc

In many cases, an exception will usually produce a rule to prevent any such situations. The man pays to be on a plane that transports him, the man pays for the airline and its pilot and flight attendants in exchange for their services. To not allow him to pray is not exactly doing him a great service. That, of course, leaves the fact that ANY airline should grab to its client as a customer not kick him out just because he wanted to pray and they had to wait two minutes for him to finish AND he said he didn't mean to be a bother. I find that (kicking him out) absurd.

But the school thing is utterly ridiculous, really. To be kicked out of school on account of wearing a ring is extremely stupid on part of whoever runs that school. It clearly shows he doesn't give a damn whether this kid gets educated during the suspension days or not only that she gets educated according to his rules.

Yeah, fukc the passenger

In many cases, an exception will usually produce a rule to prevent any such situations. The man pays to be on a plane that transports him, the man pays for the airline and its pilot and flight attendants in exchange for their services. To not allow him to pray is not exactly doing him a great service. That, of course, leaves the fact that ANY airline should grab to its client as a customer not kick him out just because he wanted to pray and they had to wait two minutes for him to finish AND he said he didn't mean to be a bother. I find that (kicking him out) absurd.

But the school thing is utterly ridiculous, really. To be kicked out of school on account of wearing a ring is extremely stupid on part of whoever runs that school. It clearly shows he doesn't give a damn whether this kid gets educated during the suspension days or not only that she gets educated according to his rules.
I disagree with you.

Rules are there to be followed. Some people have a hard time understanding that and expect to be given special treatment.. because.....

And everyone has a 'because'..

If you go to work, and the rules of the job clearly state that you cannot go with long nails, or jewellery, they have every right to take disciplinary action against you.

If someone refuses to co-operate immediately with an air flight attendant, their books say.. "remove him/her, for he/she is a threat" ... and that's their job. Their job is to follow orders, and so the man must be removed from the aircraft. You can't talk your way into bending rules in environments where the rules are everything.

The lesson the girl should have learnt is that you cannot break the rules set for the students. Same way you cannot break the law.

^Not really. How can a praying man apologising his *** off present a threat according to the Magical Book of Flight Attendants? No way. He doesn't.

And, to me at least, the only lesson the girl learnt is this:
The principal is some messed up dude who cares about his rules more than my education.
That's what I'd learn.
The only rules that are to be respected are the rules of the law and the rules of God. THAT should be a point made bluntly with no introductions or applications. The 'my rules will teach you about the law and discipline' approach sounds very dumb to me as a student. And I say that because I have been taking that approach from the school I'm studying in...It had taught me nothing about law and nothing about discipline.

Hope your next post isn't: 'They didn't do it right' :XD:

What I wonder about the ring brouhaha is whether they really mean what they say:

No jewelry? No rings?

So:

If a high school student gets married, she has to take off her wedding ring?

I very much doubt it....

The question in my mind about the virginity ring was not so much whether the girl should have complied as whether the school shouldn't be doing more to encourage virginity and abstinence rather than being "neutral" or, worse, sending out subtle hints that "no one can do that and you'd better go get some condoms".

And that's a question here about prayer too.

This is a private company, not a public school, so the question is VERY DIFFERENT.

I don't make rules for Thalia's house. Or Thalia's shop. Or Thalia's airline.

But that school is under MY supervision as a voter and a citizen (if I am in that country).

PUBLICLY, we should have policies that FAVOR religion and universal moral values, that encourage prayer and religion and recognition of the divine, not laws that discourage them.

Jeff. It's not about praying, not about virginity or giving out condoms. If it was an adoration of the devil, he would have still been kicked off. If she was wearing a "get pregnant at 15" ring, she would have still been suspended.

And it would have had nothing to do with WHY they were doing what they did. But all about not following orders and rules you agree to when you buy an airline ticket or sign up for that school.

It's really really simple.

Some rules sound ridiculous. But if you want to use that company/school or visit that country etc.. you should be prepared to follow them instead of argue about them and try to get away with breaking them.

Rules aren't holy.
They are subject to change...Not everytime someone wants them to but whenever it is seen necessary. In this guy's case, it IS necessary. The firm should not be lenient in application but simply flexible.

Rules aren't holy.
They are subject to change...Not everytime someone wants them to but whenever it is seen necessary. In this guy's case, it IS necessary. The firm should not be lenient in application but simply flexible.
And if they don;t want to? It's a private company. All he has to do is never fly with them again.

I can see exceptions being where one has no choice. Like a woman going into labour. Someone falling having a heart attack.

"Please sir, get into your seat" ..
"Can't. having an heart attack" LOL

You see this man HAD a choice. He chose to pray in the middle of the damn isle and ignore when he was ordered to get back into his seat.

Next time I get on a plane, and it's time for my exercise routine just before take-off, I think I'll do my sit-ups slap bang in the middle of the isle.

Let's hope they can be flexible and wait till I'm ready. :D

Jeff. It's not about praying, not about virginity or giving out condoms. If it was an adoration of the devil, he would have still been kicked off. If she was wearing a "get pregnant at 15" ring, she would have still been suspended.

And it would have had nothing to do with WHY they were doing what they did. But all about not following orders and rules you agree to when you buy an airline ticket or sign up for that school.

It's really really simple.

Some rules sound ridiculous. But if you want to use that company/school or visit that country etc.. you should be prepared to follow them instead of argue about them and try to get away with breaking them.

I'm not sure I disagree with this at root. I'm just saying: there's more to say.

It's the "really, really simple part" that I'm not sure about.

I don't see any reason in the world why we shouldn't argue about what rules are proper in a public school. It happens all the time that public schools and other institutions make ridiculous rules, someone suffers because of them, there is a public outcry, and the rules get changed.

I am saying two things about the viriginity ring.

First, do they really have and enforce a rule against all jewelry? Or do they just say they do and then go for selective enforcement?

If they really ban all jewelry, then they have a case.

But I suspect they allow wedding rings...they make an exception.

So: I think they should make an exception for "virginity rings" because they involves a public good and one which school teachers in American and much of Europe (I don't know about Malta) are prone to undermine rather than support.

Secondly, if they really do have a policy against all jewelry including wedding rings, they should think about either changing it or finding some other way to allow and encourage students to proclaim publicly their adherence to fidelity and chastity. That's something we NEED as a society and schools should find ways to encourage it.

I don't think either of those points necessarily conflicts with yours.

I think the prayer in the aisle rule is the company policy. But it could be simple nastiness or exaggerated inflexibility on the part of the flight attendants.

The company has a right to set policy about people in the aisles. Its public has a right to let it know if it dislikes the way the rule is formulated or applied.

Most likely, the company will be thinking about this issue.

I suspect that there may be an attempt to equalize things here. Remember the case of the Muslim imams praying in the aisle a few months back? How nice for a company to be able to say: "See? It's not just Muslims. We stop anybody who interferes with things by praying."

That might have been part of the initial thinking or it might end up becoming part of the company's thinking.

Either way, I think that when companies make policies about these sorts of things one thing they should consider--one thing...consider...that's all--is that it's a good idea to try and accomodate people's religious habits. Companies have done that a lot in our history and so have public institutions. It's good. They should continue.

Sigh...maybe I am looking at this in a business perspective and as a passenger who wants to get to their destination. If someone is goin' to hold up a flight because of what they are doing and won't comply then kick them off. I have obeyed airline rules since the age of one (when I began to fly and that is no tall tale).

Not that hard to do.

Don't want to follow the airline rules DON'T fly.

But who decides the rules? They verbally abused a woman with a crying baby and then had her escorted off the plane. Couple of months back a guy was escorted off for complaining that the service sucked.... where will it end? Are these rules really necessary or are passengers being abused by the airlines and hosties who have had a rough nite or are PMSing? The Jew was not holding up the plane, according to BBC News passengers were still boarding... And if it was a case of not holding up the plane, how long did it take them to call security onto the plane and then march the guy off? That didnt hold up the plane?

IMO the airlines and the hosties are out of control, its not about praying or peeing or crying babies but about our rights on a plane

Things like that....verbal abuse is crossing the line because the employee of the airline has lost their professional demeanor. If a passenger is causing havoc or is going to delay a flight then there has to be rules in place to keep this kind of circus to a minimum.

The main thing is passenger safety...as long as that is not compromised I don't see any issues.

What safety issue? So someone standing at the back of the plane are now considered a safety issue? What about the ppl waiting to use the bathroom? Ppl walking up and down, kids running around, tripping stewardess? What about the guys standing at the back flirting with the stewardesses? I really doubt its about safety.

I think it has some element of safety issues, because he left his seat just before take off, but then again, there was no need to kick him out, that is paranoia.

And if they don;t want to? It's a private company. All he has to do is never fly with them again.

I can see exceptions being where one has no choice. Like a woman going into labour. Someone falling having a heart attack.

"Please sir, get into your seat" ..
"Can't. having an heart attack" LOL

You see this man HAD a choice. He chose to pray in the middle of the damn isle and ignore when he was ordered to get back into his seat.

Next time I get on a plane, and it's time for my exercise routine just before take-off, I think I'll do my sit-ups slap bang in the middle of the isle.

Let's hope they can be flexible and wait till I'm ready. :D

They won't be flexible then...Or at least I don't think they would, they'll see you're fit enough not to be needing any damn exercise :D

But...I think this guy deserved to be on that plane. He wasn't doing any sit-ups, but simply praying! He didn't ignore anybody, I can understand since in Muslim prayers also you simply can't just 'leave' the prayer and walk away! The prayer HAS to be finished unless it's a HIGHLY urgent situation, some people have died while they were praying from heart attacks and got discovered after hours of their death. No, this man deserved a better treatment in exchange for the ticket he bought. And that, usually, one should look at the BIGGER PICTURE before taking such a decision as kicking someone off a plane...The bigger picture in this case is:
A customer who needs to be preserved so that he flies with the same airline later. Gets us more profits.
The second case, it's:
A student who needs an education regardless of whether she wears a ring or not wears a ring, still a student who deserves the right of education.

That's all I'm saying, that sometimes the bigger picture is a lot more important than the rules. If not, the world would just be militarily disciplined by whoever wants to put the rules and there would be no concept of flexibility at all.

Thanks for the tip:dev: but the passengers were STILL boarding, you know like walkin in the door.....

What I wanted to know is should air hosties have the right to kick passengers off a plane for no real reason?

The question is not about praying and no Mr Jack its not about being a victim :p its about rights?

According to the article :


NEW YORK - A passenger who left his seat to pray in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants' orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard, a witness and the airline said.


He already was on plane and he left his seat.. so he wasnt really walking to the plane.


+You have the right to pray.
+You dont have the right to delay others.
+You dont have the right to break the rules.


This is has nothing to do with religion really , it doesnt matter if he was a Muslim or Jewish..etc .

We all know our prayer timing and we all know the flight timing.We easly can pray before boarding Or When the plane is stable and we ask if it was safe to walk away from your seat or Pray when the plane lands

The Airline got the right to kick you off because you broke the rules and you have the right to get your money back.He broke the rules so he dont have the right to aska refund for getting kicked.


Dont you agree ?

I agree with Evil Fire on this - he broke the rules, he deserves to be thrown out!

And if they don;t want to? It's a private company. All he has to do is never fly with them again.

I can see exceptions being where one has no choice. Like a woman going into labour. Someone falling having a heart attack.

"Please sir, get into your seat" ..
"Can't. having an heart attack" LOL

You see this man HAD a choice. He chose to pray in the middle of the damn isle and ignore when he was ordered to get back into his seat.

Next time I get on a plane, and it's time for my exercise routine just before take-off, I think I'll do my sit-ups slap bang in the middle of the isle.

Let's hope they can be flexible and wait till I'm ready. :Dlol i like the example...:hyper:

I think he deserved to be kicked off..some people are too much, and thanks God he is not a muslim:)

:XD: poor guy. Seriously, I find his story very funny!

If the guy got up to pray right before take off and we all know that we are suppose to be in our seats he should have been directed back to his seat. He could have finished his prayers sitting. I don't buy letting a guy finish his prayers and hold up the schedule of the airport, the airplane, the passengers and the runway. These planes HAVE to take off when it is their time to line up on the runway and if a passenger is not going to obey then kick him or her off.