EnjoY!!

The Greatest of The Great in History

Thanks for share :)

I think this is very helpful and interesting...

I wish, though, that people who do this would be more discriminating about who they choose.

Carlysle and Tolstoy are great intellectual figures in the West and it really means something to hear them say what they say about Mohammed. (Though Carlysle said some very unflattering things about the Quran too...)

But some of the other folks in the video are people who are very ordinary and hardly known at all.

That doesn't mean what they say isn't of value, but that it tends to give a little bit more of a feeling of propaganda to something that could be done better if the producers were a little bit more discriminating....

thanx for sharing,
Prophet mohammed is indeed the greatest of the great forever and ever, imho

Jeff, those people are famous in different parts of the world. I don't know the gentlemen you mentioned, but many others, including Ghandi who is famous in this part of the world.

Regardless of what these men say, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Greatest Leader ever. The reasons given are clear, and other contemporary and historic facts and statistics speak for themselves, and you can always use your own mind to decide that :)

Jeff, those people are famous in different parts of the world. I don't know the gentlemen you mentioned, but many others, including Ghandi who is famous in this part of the world.

Regardless of what these men say, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Greatest Leader ever. The reasons given are clear, and other contemporary and historic facts and statistics speak for themselves, and you can always use your own mind to decide that :)

Well, of course Gandhi belongs on the list, you are right.

But there were several names there that are not famous anywhere, in any part of the world.

I don't expect the piece to be "balanced". I expect it to be pro-Mohammed and that's fine. It's just that it hurts the overall impression for a person educated in Western culture when important Western figures are mixed in with people of no significance.

Because the point of the piece is argument from authority: "See how even these famous Western non-Muslims acknowledge the greatness of Mohammed." So they should stick to people who are truly impressive, and not add in non-entities to fill out the list.

It's a criticism of this piece, not a criticism of your Prophet! I mixed praise with blame, now. Don't be too hard on me! :p

I understand that Jeff. You criticized the peace, not our Prophet (PBUH). But you also need to understand that we were not discussing whether the piece was perfect, and if the critics, which you played the role of, were happy with it.

But maybe I feel this was because its insignificant to discuss the piece, when we are discussing the greater man who walked the earth. Its insignificant to discuss whether you knew few of the characters in that video, when others are so famous.

Anyhow, back to the topic :)

^ I want to join! :p

What I understood is that this piece featured non-Muslims. Not necessarily GREAT FAMOUS non-Muslims

So the aim was to show that even non-Muslims say that he was a great man. Because if Muslims said it, it would be normal, of course they'd say he's a great man, they follow his teachings because they believe he is so!

Thanks for sharing Bu Tayma. :)

Because if Muslims said it, it would be normal, of course they'd say he's a great man, they follow his teachings because they believe he is so!
Totally agree here.

Some might be ordinary for some peope as Jeff mentioned but they might not be ordinary for others.

Example:
Sting thinks that Tolstoy is an ordinary person, but Jeff thinks he's a very famous person ;)

If they said that why dint they enter Islam?! :O

A person doesn't have to be convinced in Islam to see that prophet mohammed is the greatest of the great :)

^ I want to join! :p

What I understood is that this piece featured non-Muslims. Not necessarily GREAT FAMOUS non-Muslims

So the aim was to show that even non-Muslims say that he was a great man. Because if Muslims said it, it would be normal, of course they'd say he's a great man, they follow his teachings because they believe he is so!

Well, that's fair to say.

As a celebration of Islamic faith for Muslims, I have no argument with it. But part of the purpose is to reach out to non-Muslims, no?

And if you want to know how well it does that, you have to ask the more open-minded among non-Muslims for a genuine reaction.

If you want to show that non-Muslims often say that Mohammed was impressive, that's fair.

The problem is: are you going to try to convince us mainly through the arguments they make? Or through the fact that they are impressive people? Or both?

The film seems to rely--sensibly--on the second approach.

If you show me Gandhi and Carlysle praising Mohammed, I may not completely understand their arguments. But I can say, "Gee, these are not just nobodys. You can always find somebody to endorse any opinion.

"But these are significant and highly regarded non-Muslim men. So there is likely something impressive about the man they are praising."

This is a sound Muslim argument to make to non-Muslims.

But mixing in people no one has heard of makes it less impressive as a witness. Especially because it's the less impressive people that say the most extravagant things.

So I think that for intelligent, educated non-Muslims, the power of the presentation is lessened. It certainly was for me anyway.

And that's worth saying...I think! :p

A person doesn't have to be convinced in Islam to see that prophet mohammed is the greatest of the great :)

Well, and I'm not quite to the point of "the greatest of the great", I'm afraid! :p Great and impressive, yes.

And again, that's why it's worth talking about the presentation. It's good for Muslims to hear what convinces people and what doesn't from their target audience.

And in a friendly way, that's what I'm trying to do.

It's of importance to me, you know, because one of the many things I have tried to do on Sabla is to discover what it is that Muslims find so impressive and lovable about Mohammed.

I HAVE come to understand some of that much better since coming here. And I think that shows my sincerity and open-mindedness.

But: this film helps that, I think, with its presentation of the opinion of great Westerners about Mohammed. It reduces the power of the film to throw in extravagant opinions of people no one has heard of.

That's my impression. And y'all are welcome to take it or leave it! :)

actually my post was directed to CompulsiveWaves. :)
I try to see what's bothering you, though. And I fail to :os

actually my post was directed to CompulsiveWaves. :)
I try to see what's bothering you, though. And I fail to :os

Well, maybe you and UmK are right.

Maybe this is really a piece to help Muslims celebrate and strengthen their faith by showing them some non-Muslim reactions. In that case, what I said doesn't really matter much...

If you know Prophet Mohammad better, if you ever see his face! You will just wish to take your heart out from your chest and put it in his hand.

I think we are talking about a man (Prophet Mohammad Peace Be Upon Him) which we didn't see or sit with. You can tell when you see a man face to face if this man is a prophet of a normal ordinary man who is being good enough.

We are blind in describing the prophet, yes ... whoever talks about him did never say "He wasn't looking like a prophet!" This comment was never found even in the most aggressive books who described that period.

I want to confess that Prophet Mohammad Peace Be Upon Him, :"Looked": also like a Prophet of Allah. Yes he was equipped. God knows how we feel, and knows how a Prophet should be looking like , and that what Mohammad was peace upon him.

Now talk about his teachings and the message from Allah the only God. We are leveling up people ... It was so much painful when Prophet Mohammad died, he was a prophet, or let us say the last prophet to be send to earth in a message. How I know? Look at earth after he went away... Who else was better to walk on its soil?

Mohammad The Son of Abdullah was so much a person and of quality. You know how he portrayed his message?

Prophet Mohammad said: "Like me and you people, like a man who lit up a fire in the wilderness, so moths and grasshoppers do fly and jump into the fire , and the man tries to push them away and they repeatedly go again and jump into this fire, like that I am holding you back not to fall in hell but you slip from me and fall in it"

Seduced by the blurring elusive light, we jump into forbidden and so into hell, and Prophet stops us, as far and as possible as he can, but we still insist to the seduction of those passages that leads to God's wrath and hell.

Did you see how much he loves us? He cars 'a lot' for us, beyond explanation, an unconditioned love and car.

That other day when he was fed up with Mecca's refusal to his message he went to Taef and they throw stones on him till his feet got bloody, and let their kids call him bad things and follow him in a rude way. Then when he sat under a tree, Allah send him an angel telling him if you need me to squeeze them between these two mountains I will do that, but Prophet Mohammad refused and he said: "Could be that God bring from their offspring someone who will worship Allah".

He was caring about the offspring? Who have that vision? Who doesn't want to revenge for himself and show the others the outcome of disobeying and hurting the prophet? True, the whole offspring loves you Prophet Mohammad... Peace be upon you!

Well I was never really waiting for anybody 'famous' or 'impressive' to approve him great. He IS great, by the word of GOD...And, to me at least, God's word in His prophet is pretty much enough to convince me of his greatness.

But Jeff seems to be worried that we're not that good enough in da'wa with this video...If you read between the lines, he really wants more Muslims around :hyper:

Well, maybe you and UmK are right.

Maybe this is really a piece to help Muslims celebrate and strengthen their faith by showing them some non-Muslim reactions. In that case, what I said doesn't really matter much...

Maybe!
Maybe it is also for non-muslims to tell them "look, all of those people (that you know, don't know, and don't give a damn about) think that he is one of the greatest people ever" :p

Well I was never really waiting for anybody 'famous' or 'impressive' to approve him great. He IS great, by the word of GOD...And, to me at least, God's word in His prophet is pretty much enough to convince me of his greatness.


Excatly. At least he's the greates of the great to us muslims.

There were roughly 15 people on the video (am guessing) who said good things about Mohammed............some of whom I have never heard of..........some of whom's opinion means nothing

Surely you don't need such a weak list of people to justify your love and respect for Mohammed?

PS Shall we print a list of genuinely great non-muslims and see what they think?

mr pinnochio, thanks for the usual rubbish that you posted

Your opinion means nothing, as usual

^I second that.
mr.pin, do you kindly care to elaborate on what you said? I'm getting gibberish here.

Hitty,

It is quite clear from this thread that the only opinions (or articles or media or TV) that matters are the ones that fully endorse 'your' view (it has always amused me hear that all Western media is owned/controlled by Jews..........apart from selected articles!)

Being open to different perspective = not allowed

However, I am genuinely thrilled that this list of truly awesome and highly important and highly influential non-Muslims have said nice things about Mohammed. It must make you so proud...........and if it helped to fully justify your beliefs, then that's great!

Hitty,

It is quite clear from this thread that the only opinions (or articles or media or TV) that matters are the ones that fully endorse 'your' view (it has always amused me hear that all Western media is owned/controlled by Jews..........apart from selected articles!)

Being open to different perspective = not allowed

However, I am genuinely thrilled that this list of truly awesome and highly important and highly influential non-Muslims have said nice things about Mohammed. It must make you so proud...........and if it helped to fully justify your beliefs, then that's great!

When an ordinary man apprises a rose :flower: his words adds nothing to the beauty of the rose rather than it adds to people's admire to his good taste. It is just because the poet knows how to tell the beauty of the rose people call him so.

Less that all this adds to the beauty of the rose!:flower:

I request the moderators to delete mr. pinnochio's rubbish. This thread is too good for that :)

Sting,

You are right……..this is a fantastic thread!

It is the first time the views of non-Muslims have been so highly valued….

...........and not just any old non-Muslims...............but a highly impressive list of them

Well I was never really waiting for anybody 'famous' or 'impressive' to approve him great. He IS great, by the word of GOD...And, to me at least, God's word in His prophet is pretty much enough to convince me of his greatness.

But Jeff seems to be worried that we're not that good enough in da'wa with this video...If you read between the lines, he really wants more Muslims around :hyper:

Not EXACTLY, but Threadlike is very close to the money: he's a smart guy!

My criticism was an entirely friendly one...the constructive kind. I can't tell for sure, of course, but I BELIEVE that if I were a Muslim, I would have the same criticisms.

I disagree with Pinnocchio, though.

It's true that there are other famous Westerners that have not been so complimentary of Mohammed and Islam.

BUT: No one can deny that Gandhi is considered the world over as one of the great moral leaders and teachers of modern times.

AND: Tolstoy is considered by many people to have been the greatest writer of novels OF ALL TIME. And he's also famous as a Christian ethicist... although he sort of invented his own personal brand of Christianity. He's valued by many for his moral teachings as for his fiction. Gee, if you want a good read that will move you and fascinate you at the same time and War and Peace is too long, go read Family Happiness or The Death of Ivan Ilyich which are like long short stories. I bet you can find them online.

These are two VERY SIGNIFICANT FIGURES for Western Civilization.

Thomas Carlyle is one notch below them, but only one notch. Anyone who takes a survey course in English Literature at the college level will encounter him as one of the greatest Victorian prose writers and essayists, along with Newman and Ruskin. Check out the Oxford Anthology of English Lieterature: He's the first guy listed under "Victorian Prose."

And he was and remains an influential thinker, not just a writer. Educated Westerners writing books about Western civilization and its ideal and currents of thought, will still quote Carlyle to help make their points.

So how does this help Muslims?

Well: Compulsive Waves is right. None of these guys became Muslims and that is a subject of an interesting discussion....

But...

Suppose you are talking to an educated and cultured Westerner who honestly has a very negative impression of Mohammed (believe me, there are a lot of them.)

You can respond, "I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind. But if Mohammed is as bad as you say, how do you explain the fact that great moral thinkers from the non-Muslim world--figures as respected and deep as the Hindu Universalist Gandhi, the Christian Universalist Tolstoy, and the agnostic moralist Carlyle...figures who by any reckoning are among the most influential for your civilization--rank him as one of mankind's greatest and most influential leaders?"

That's not going to finish the discussion, but it's a powerful point. And to people who are open to points you might want to make, that's going to be a very good one in their minds.

And it's a point I can use on behalf of my Muslim friends when I speak to my Christian friends who have a very negative impression of Islam. "Okay, you've pointed to a lot of negatives. But let me put something else in the mix for you to think about.... Did you know,,,,,,,?"

So I think this is a very powerful point the film makes.

And BECAUSE it is SUCH a powerful point, it deserves to made as powerfully as it can be. That's where my negative critique came from.

Muslims may admire Mother Teresa, but that does not mean they are going to become a Christian. So I don't understand why we should discuss why a person who admires 'Mohammed = since they do not believe he is a prophet :PBUH:' will not necessarily become a Muslim.

An example: His uncle, AbdulMuttalib.

Muslims may admire Mother Teresa, but that does not mean they are going to become a Christian. So I don't understand why we should discuss why a person who admires 'Mohammed = since they do not believe he is a prophet :PBUH:' will necessarily become a Muslim.

An example: His uncle, AbdulMuttalib.

Can you tell me about the example? I'd love to know more...

I wonder what you think of my last post too. I think part of the problem is that I didn't do a very good job of explaining the POSITIVE features of the film...

I guess it's dissapointing to know that the effort put in the film was not good enough. Although I didn't know most of the names either, I was still touched. Not because of the nice things they said about my Prophet, I know and truly believe he is so and do not need to hear it from others to be convinced that I am right. What touched me is seeing people who are honest enough to admit that there are many, many good things they can learn from the prophet :PBUH:, even if they disagree with many other things.

What dissapointed me was seeing that it didn't serve its purpose when shown to non-Muslims. They're not to blame, the movie makers are the ones who didn't put it in mind. They should've thought more about the things you pointed to. And I believe what you said IS constructive criticism, and I appreciate it very much. Maybe if I ever made a movie, I'll benefit a lot from this. A LOT.

Ok. Minutes and I'll bring the story Insha'Allah. :)

Can you tell me about the example? I'd love to know more...
I wonder what you think of my last post too. I think part of the problem is that I didn't do a very good job of explaining the POSITIVE features of the film...

AbdulMuttalib ( The prophet's :PBUH: uncle ) was a man of power and well respected in Quraish and he protected our prophet PBUH from them harming him since the prophet was an orphan. The infidels in quraish went so many times to AbdulMuttalib and asked the green light to hurt him. They even offered him another guy to be his son and they take Mohammed :PBUH: and kill him but as usual he refused. AbdulMuttalib asked Mohammed :PBUH: to consider quraishes offers like crowning him a king, giving him lots of money and many temptations so he backs off from his new religion and our prophet PBUH said his famous sentence: والله يا عم لو وضعو الشمس في يميني والقمر في شمالي على ان اترك هذا الدين ما تركته ( I swear to God, uncle that if they put the sun on my right hand and the moon on my left to quit this religion I will never do, unless God wants me to ). Unfortunately, and despite the great help and protection AbdulMuttalib did towards his niephew, he didnt embrace Islam because he was afraid that quraishes will talk about him and thus he died non muslim.

Alright I know UmK was writing a reply...Let's see who's faster. First of all, I think UmK means Abu Talib, not AbdulMuttalib who was the prophet's grandfather.
Abu Talib was the prophet PBUH's uncle who had supported him during his stay in Mecca and after he (the prophet PBUH) started recieving the revelation. Abu Talib, however, was approached by the leaders of Quraysh (the tribe of Mecca) and asked to tell his nephew to stop asking people to abandon the gods and asking them to worship one God only. And to stop telling them to go into his new religion that offends their gods.

Abu Talib did as told.
And the prophet PBUH replied, 'I swear by Allah, my dear uncle, that if they put the Sun in my right and the Moon in my left, I will not leave this matter (meaning Islam)'. Abu Talib was pleaded by the prophet PBUH on his deathbed to say the Shahada (The declaration of the existence of one God and Mohammed as his prophet). His last statement, unfortunately, was not so and he refused to say the Shahada, with some citing his last statement as 'I am on the religion of Abd ul Muttalib'.

Abu Talib was one of the STRONGEST supporters of the prophet PBUH against Quraysh, along with his (the prophet PBUH's) wife, Khadija. The death of both of them (Abu Talib and Khadija) on the same year bore the prophet great sorrow and that year was called The Year of Sorrow.

Haha, both (Threadlike and El Rey) of you beat me to it! السابقون Masha'Allah :cute:

Thanks for the correction Threadlike, I meant Abu Talib not AbdulMuttalib. I had my teacher's name in mind. :p

What I could add is that I found his Diwan. (Poems):

One of his poems:

والله لن يصلو إليك بجمعهم ... حتى أوسِّد في التراب دفينا
فاصدع بأمرك ما عليك غضاضة ... وابشر بذاك، وقر منه عيونا
ودعوتني، وزعمت أنك ناصح ... ولقد صدقت، وكنت ثم أمينا
وعرضت دينا قد علم بأنه ... من خير أديان البريّة دينا
لولا الملامة أو حذاري مسبة ... لوجدتني سمحا بذاك مبينا

Abu Talib actually WROTE that?
That was SO interesting to read...Thanks a lot for sharing. Do you have a link or so to the entire poem or the entire diwan?

Lol I was confused between the two names too ( UK's fault :hmm: )
Thanks for correcting the name Thread :D

No probs ElRey, was my pleasure bro :D

LOL sorry El Rey. :p

Threadlike, I have a book.
Title: ديوان أبي طالب - عم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم
Collected and explained by: Dr. محمد التونجي
Library: دار الكتاب العربي

There are more. So beautiful. Most about how great his tribe (Quraish) was. The others about his sons and the Prophet :PBUH:.

Haha, both (Threadlike and El Rey) of you beat me to it! السابقون Masha'Allah :cute:

Thanks for the correction Threadlike, I meant Abu Talib not AbdulMuttalib. I had my teacher's name in mind. :p

What I could add is that I found his Diwan. (Poems):

One of his poems:

والله لن يصلو إليك بجمعهم ... حتى أوسِّد في التراب دفينا
فاصدع بأمرك ما عليك غضاضة ... وابشر بذاك، وقر منه عيونا
ودعوتني، وزعمت أنك ناصح ... ولقد صدقت، وكنت ثم أمينا
وعرضت دينا قد علم بأنه ... من خير أديان البريّة دينا
لولا الملامة أو حذاري مسبة ... لوجدتني سمحا بذاك مبينا

This is really a great poem, others who can't read arabic may want to know what it says:

I swear they ( all of them ) won't catch you
untill am burried under the earth dead

Go on in what you're doing
Don't worry and sleep assured

You asked me and claimed to be an advisor
And you said the truth and were sencere

And proposed a religion was known
One of the best religions ever came

If am not afraid of blame or curse ( of others )
You'll find me one of your followers

I know it doesnt rhyme but I tried my best to give the meaning :D

^ No that's great, El Rey. Masha'Allah. :)

Thanks for the story and the poem, guys! :p

UmK, I wouldn't say the film doesn't serve its purpose. I just think it could have been executed better, that's all.

It's just good to understand the mentality of whoever it is you are addressing so as to do them the most good, to really get inside the way they think and what they know.

St. Paul in the Bible is talking to Christians here about evangelization, but I think the principle would apply to dawa for Muslims too--getting into the mindset of those you are addressing:

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Sorry, one thing has to be straightened out. Abu Talib was a believer, he showed that in his poems, but he never declared the Shahada. So there are people who might believe in Islam as a religion, but for many purposed they do not declare that they are. Abu Talib's reason was because of his tribe.

Sorry, one thing has to be straightened out. Abu Talib was a believer, he showed that in his poems, but he never declared the Shahada. So there are people who might believe in Islam as a religion, but for many purposed they do not declare that they are. Abu Talib's reason was because of his tribe.

That's a very interesting distinction! :)

It reminds of Franz Werfel, who wrote The Song of Bernadette. He believed in Catholicism and wrote all kinds of perfectly Catholic books. But he never joined the Church because he was Jewish and after World War Two he said, "I cannot leave my people."

Wow. It's amazing how both are so alike.

Jeff, is it easy for you as a Catholic to say he was one? We would love to say openly and easily that Abu Talib was a Muslim. To us it's like this:

Was he a Muslim?
... No. :think:

Then he was a non-Muslim?
... No. :think:

Is it the same situation with Franz Werfel?

Wow. It's amazing how both are so alike.

Jeff, is it easy for you as a Catholic to say he was one? We would love to say openly and easily that Abu Talib was a Muslim. To us it's like this:

Was he a Muslim?
... No. :think:

Then he was a non-Muslim?
... No. :think:

Is it the same situation with Franz Werfel?

It's a complicated question and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer for it. We have lots of clear teaching in the Catholic Church but also wide areas where people have different opinions.

On the one hand, if people know the truth it is their responsibility to embrace it openly and there is no excuse for not doing so.

On the other hand, the human heart is a deep and complex thing. It is hard to understand. People are often mixed up, and have habits and confusions and rationalizations to deal with. Only God can read hearts and make the judgment.

But Fr. Ronald Knox used to say, "All the identity tags in Heaven read 'RC'".

That means that in a certain sense, everyone in Heaven is a Roman Catholic. And since the presumption is that there will be a certain number of people who were not explicitly Catholic in life but who get to Heaven, then in some sense of the word, they must have been Catholic before they got there! :p

I imagine that on the Last Day, there will be many surprises for all of us. Some will be sad and some will be delightful. But all of them will show us the Wisdom and Mercy of God.

Sorry, one thing has to be straightened out. Abu Talib was a believer, he showed that in his poems, but he never declared the Shahada. So there are people who might believe in Islam as a religion, but for many purposed they do not declare that they are. Abu Talib's reason was because of his tribe.

...Which naturally does not make him a believer :os
I mean, if you believe, the big condition is you are suppose to aknowledge the existence of the one God at the least. Abu Talib did not. He died an unbeliever.

If I may quote Jeff: Only God can read hearts and make the judgment.

Belief is in the heart. We know he KNEW the Prophet :PBUH: was saying the truth. He knew, which means he believed that.

Will God punish him for not accepting Islam?
Will God forgive him for his great deeds that cannot be compared to any of ours?

I imagine that on the Last Day, there will be many surprises for all of us. Some will be sad and some will be delightful. But all of them will show us the Wisdom and Mercy of God.

I do remember reading that as Abu Talib was dying the prophet PBUH said, 'I will pray for your forgiveness so long as I am allowed to do so'.

The following verse was then revealed as I have read:
It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.
--9:113.

I have also read that the following verse was revealed to comfort the prophet PBUH after Abu Talib's death (though I'm not very sure):
It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
--28:56.

Can you say that Mother Teresa, for example, is going to hell?

No room for comparison..
Mother Teresa was a Christian and a nun, she was from the People of the Book. See verses 3:113 and 3:114 for starters:
113. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
114. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Abu Talib was a pagan. He died on that state. The verse mentioned earlier clears that out!

Listen, I'd love to see Abu Talib in Paradise, God knows I can never even get close to the way he supported the prophet PBUH. But God really has wisdom in this...And we have to wait to know it, perhaps. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong...Though I doubt it :p

^^

I would say, from my ignorant outsiders perspective, that yours is the most natural reading, Threadlike.

And natural readings are most often right. But not ALWAYS.

Another possible reading of that verse is simply that it is a WARNING:

"Don't just pray for pagans when it has become clear that they are going to remain pagan. You must steer clear of that Mohammed. I won't be taking people who reject me to heaven."

But the verse doesn't 100% close the door to counting this man as a Believer. It doesn't after all say that Abu Talib himself was not to be prayed for.

The interpretation in that case is predicated on Mohammed praying for him UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT HE IS A PAGAN. That would be the mistake.

And there is a second tier consideration, too.

Even if he is considered as among the damned, perhaps he was still a Believer who didn't bring it to complete fruition in his heart.

One man can be a proto-believer, if you will, on the way but not quite there. He might be a believer of sorts, because he is following the path of truth as far as he is able. But then there comes a point when he has to make a choice to do that more fully. And...he turns away.

But another man can make the choice to bring his belief to fruition. In that case, Abu Talib would have been a Believer of sorts, or a Proto Believer up until a certain point--known to God alone--when he turned away definitively.

Threadlike:

It's also worth mentioning that the Shia say that Abu Talib died a believer. I suppose it's possible that a Sunni could agree with the Shia on a point or two! :p

Here is what Wikipedia says:

Among the main refutations of his supposed disbelief is the counter argument to the hadith relating to verse [al-Tawbah 9:113]. Whilst some Sunnis have argued that the verse was revealed to confirm the disbelief of Abu Talib, Shias argue that a historical analysis easily dispells such a notion. It is well established that Abu Talib died before the Hijrah, and that the verse in question was revealed after the treaty of Hudaybiyyah, more than 7 years later, thus making it impossible for the verse to have been revealed about Abu Talib.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Talib

I don't know what the Ibadhis think...they are meskeen, they have been left out, as so often happens... :(

I think what you are getting at is that we have to distinguish between hope and wishful thinking. And I think that's right.

But sometimes, there is a fine line between them and an area of ambiguity. Then I think we can go with hope, so long as we remember, "We must never presume the mercy of God."

All Muslims are one. Although they have divided themselves in groups because of certain differences, but they all still consider each other as Muslims.

This might seem as false thanks to the events in Iraq, but this is the truth.

I don't know how do Catholics, Orthodox and other Christians feel about each other, but as a Muslim, being a Sunni, Shi'te or Abadhi is all the same.

All Muslims are one. Although they have divided themselves in groups because of certain differences, but they all still consider each other as Muslims.

This might seem as false thanks to the events in Iraq, but this is the truth.

I don't know how do Catholics, Orthodox and other Christians feel about each other, but as a Muslim, being a Sunni, Shi'te or Abadhi is all the same.

I think that in the main that's true! :p

Jeff,
Your conclusion may be reasonable and all I can say is: Perhaps that's right and you make a good, resonable case.
Maybe it is right...Maybe it isn't. I'd love for it to be as you say, I'd really do.
But all the evidence seems to be majorly pointing the other way, that's all...But I can say this: Nobody knows who's going to Hell and who's exactly going to Paradise. It is an Islamic belief. However, there are certain categories of people that have been labelled in the Qura'n, highlighted if you like it, who will be the people of the Paradise and the people of Hell. Of those the major group are the ones who completely disbelieved in the existence of a single God or those who have been mushrikeen (i.e: worshipping a 'little' god to approach the 'big' god or worshipping many gods at once).

All the evidence seems to say that Abu Talib belonged to the group of pagans.

^ Not really. We shouldn't make such conclusions when we don't know the whole truth.

According to many Sunni scholars also, Abu Talib was a Monotheist. Not a Muslim, but he believed God was one.

Through his poems, through some of his sayings, through even some situations he's been through long before the Prophet :PBUH: was born.

I was looking for the story of AbdulMuttalib with Saif bin Thee Yazan but could not find it. I remember Dr. Omar AbdulKafi dedicating a whole program on Sharjah TV to talking about how AbdulMuttalib was NOT a pagan. The whole family knew there was going to come a descendant who is 'great'. Then when AbdulMuttalib visited Saif bin Thee Yazan, Saif told him about what the old scriptures mentioned about his family having a 'great' descendant. When the Prophet :PBUH: said that he received the revelations, Abu Talib knew, because his father has told him about it.

Fair enough.
You shouldn't be making conclusions he was a monotheist either.
A supporter of the prophet PBUH, I agree.
A good man, I agree.
A Muslim, I completely disagree. There's absoloutely no evidence at all of that.

If you want to close the matter on 'We're really not sure'. Fine, that's fair enough to me...

You're right. :)

Well, yep, that's fair.