This is mainly to sabla men when they think of marriage and marrying the right person:

Why do you mostly go for the virgin ones? Is it because she's "fresh (not used)" and never had sex?

Well, many virgin women did everything except losing "it"! How does that make you feel better?

I asked this question to 8 guys today! And 8 out of 8 said that no matter what they'd always go for the virgin ones even if they had a long history of sleeping with men!

I won't say the non-virgin ones are "better" than the virgin ones, but I'm saying you can't really judge a woman just because she lost her virginity.

If I was a guy and had to choose between a woman who's had sex once or twice (lost her virginity) and a woman who's been physically active with men (but a virgin), I am definately going for the non-virgin one! Maybe I would change my mind if I was a guy, but realistically that's the right choice if I was up for the "right" woman!

Please convince me otherwise. I had a long conversation with the guys I asked, but sadly none of them could convince me why the virgin one is better LOL!

I never thought about it much...

I married a virgin, but it wouldn't have made me think any differently if she hadn't been.

Life in the ME is very complex these days, isn't it? And it must be particularly tough for girls who are pulled in two very different directions at the same time...

It is better for their rep and ego. Full stop.


They would rather not see the difference between a woman who was in love and had sex to a woman who would do anything EXCEPT lose her virginity with just anyone..

well that girl was strong enough to resist the temptation right?? not like the girl who didnt, even if it was once or twice only...

that accounts for something...

well that girl was strong enough to resist the temptation right?? not like the girl who didnt, even if it was once or twice only...

that accounts for something...
or the girl who didn't resist the temptation but did everything else except break her hymen. ;)

^ Thank you minerva!

A virgin who does everything "but" did not resist temptation she just knew better than to let herself go to the point of losing her proof.

What do you mean by doing everything except lose her virginity? I think the guy would know if the girl was experienced or not. I don't respect girls who give up their virginity before marriage, so if I was the guy I would also marry the girl who experienced other stuff but is still a virgin, if everything else is kissing and hugging lol.

I'd trust a woman's word on whether she's a virgin about as much as I'd trust a second hand car salesman's word about how many previous owners, so it's pointless to debate over which type of virgin is best when you can't find out which one she really is.

What do you mean by done everything except lose her virginity? I think the guy would know if the girl was experienced or not. I don't respect girls who give up their virginity before marriage, so if I was the guy I would also marry the girl who experienced other stuff but is still a virgin, if everything else is kissing and hugging lol.

So innocent :color:
Everything: everything you could think of except losing her virginity. I don't want to list them down here because the thread will either take a different direction or get deleted lol!

Yes and there are always operations to fix the hymen. The best thing is if you two are compatible and that she is just a good person who is kind to others etc....now if she has a rep of messing around virgin or not I know if I was a guy I would steer clear.

What do you mean by doing everything except lose her virginity? I think the guy would know if the girl was experienced or not. I don't respect girls who give up their virginity before marriage, so if I was the guy I would also marry the girl who experienced other stuff but is still a virgin, if everything else is kissing and hugging lol.
there's more to things one can do apart from kissing and hugging.

We like new stuff :p Though sometimes we can ignore & forget :bored:

What do you mean by doing everything except lose her virginity? I think the guy would know if the girl was experienced or not. I don't respect girls who give up their virginity before marriage, so if I was the guy I would also marry the girl who experienced other stuff but is still a virgin, if everything else is kissing and hugging lol.
Everything else is usually more than just kissing and hugging, ie anal sex can count as "everything else".

What do you mean by doing everything except lose her virginity? I think the guy would know if the girl was experienced or not. I don't respect girls who give up their virginity before marriage, so if I was the guy I would also marry the girl who experienced other stuff but is still a virgin, if everything else is kissing and hugging lol.

So innocent :color:


But that's kinda nice... :)

Lol I don't know if she had one serious relationship in the past and things got intense but she still stopped before going further I think she should get credit for that, on the other side the non-virgin girl went along and enjoyed her time without thinking of the consequences so I don't think the two could be compared.

But that's kinda nice... :)

Actually I was admiring her for that. I guess my smily didn't really support it lol..

Everything else is usually more than just kissing and hugging, ie anal sex can count as "everything else".


A girl could do that and still be a virgin?! yuck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libellula
Everything else is usually more than just kissing and hugging, ie anal sex can count as "everything else".


A girl could do that and still be a virgin?! yuck!


OMG you are soooo innocent. Sigh...wish sometimes more people were this way. Too sweet.

thanks dam3eti for explaining my point...

even if she did everything, she stopped, in the toughest time (when u hardly resist anything)...

tha non-virgin didnt, she went all the way...

Back door action you say?

She'd better not do it with someone from an African descent, she'll definitely end up on the table of the proctologist in order get her sphincter function properly again

HITMAN, you're just one of a kind!

This is going to be a depressing thread for quite a few men. LOL

Okay the guy is stupid if he'd go for a girl who has anal sex period. That's sick, that's worse than doing it the normal way. Lol.

Back door action you say?

She'd better not do it with someone from an African descent, she'll definitely end up on the table of the proctologist in order get her sphincter function properly again
right, back to topic.

ahem.....

why is virginity so important? and what if a girl can run around as much as she wants if she can get it repaired anyway?

Dam3eti,, Finally, I pulled you towards my side of the argument :hyper: haha!

thanks dam3eti for explaining my point...

even if she did everything, she stopped, in the toughest time (when u hardly resist anything)...

tha non-virgin didnt, she went all the way...
I don't agree with this.

Maybe the one who is technically a "virgin" was sleeping around (in other ways) and doing nasty stuff with like 50 random men before she met you, while the one who is a non-virgin only slept with one person who she was committed to and happened to lose her virginity.

How can you even compare the two in this situation?

The first girl could just be manipulative and smart enough to plan things so that she gets some action but doesn't have to worry about consequences later because let's face it, in the Arab world the only thing that seems to matter is whether her hymen is intact or not.

It all depends on how you define virginity.. to some people, it's got to do with only the hymen being intact (in this case, a girl who did everything including oral, anal, etc but did not have sexual intercourse is considered a "virgin"). To others, it's about being sexually inexperienced and not having engaged in any sort of sexual activity (in this case, the same girl in the example above is a "non-virgin", because even though she has her hymen, she is definitely not innocent).

Depending on the situation and what we're comparing, sometimes a non-virgin girl could be a lot more modest and decent compared to a "virgin" girl.

HITMAN, you're just one of a kind!

NO kidding. What a thread! :rolleyes:

I don't agree with this.

Maybe the one who is technically a "virgin" was sleeping around (in other ways) and doing nasty stuff with like 50 random men before she met you, while the one who is a non-virgin only slept with one person who she was committed to and happened to lose her virginity.

How can you even compare the two in this situation?

The first girl could just be manipulative and smart enough to plan things so that she gets some action but doesn't have to worry about consequences later because let's face it, in the Arab world the only thing that seems to matter is whether her hymen is intact or not.

It all depends on how you define virginity.. to some people, it's got to do with only the hymen being intact. To others, it's about being sexually inexperienced and not having engaged in any sort of sexual activity.

Depending on the situation and what we're comparing, sometimes a non-virgin girl could be a lot more modest and decent compared to a "virgin" girl.


I totally agree with this. A virgin could have done many many things with a guy and the only------ahem----"barrier" that stands between the virgin and non-virgin is proof of the hymen. Makes no logical sense to me.

^That's what I meant, if the virgin girl did all these other stuff with A LOT of guys then ya the non-virgin would be more modest. The thing is with non-virgins you can't really know if she slept with just one guy or with many random guys. It's complicated.

well to me a virgin is a girl who didnt do a thing

and wake up ppl, a girl who was in love with someone n lost her virginity to?? sorry, wont be my wife...

NO kidding. What a thread! :rolleyes:

LOOOOOOL :boo:

so what about guys being virgins? what if a girl finds out that he's been with other women before her? would that make him a ''no-no you can't be my husband'' as well?

It did perk up the members. :)

so what about guys being virgins? what if a girl finds out that he's been with other women before her? would that make him a ''no-no you can't be my husband'' as well?



AMEN! :angel:

well to me a virgin is a girl who didnt do a thing

and wake up ppl, a girl who was in love with someone n lost her virginity to?? sorry, wont be my wife...

If that's how you base your standards in choosing the perfect wife, then I won't argue more! Hope you find "purity" in your wife :star:

It did perk up the members. :)

Cough, cough, splutter... :mmhmm:

so what about guys being virgins? what if a girl finds out that he's been with other women before her? would that make him a ''no-no you can't be my husband'' as well?

Most men are very careful to do everything but lose their hymens.

Once you lose your virginity if your single than you lose your reputation with it !
So wither you slept with 50 or only 1 guy your on the black list …

but they are exceptions like if the girl is raped then it’s not her fault that the sick minded person did it to her maybe she is a good person then in that case shes dismissed and I think she’s okay to be a wife like I said it’s not her fault

so what about guys being virgins? what if a girl finds out that he's been with other women before her? would that make him a ''no-no you can't be my husband'' as well?

Most women would go "no-no" but not me. I look at the bright side: he's experienced and more educated; sexually :p

Most women would go "no-no" but not me. I look at the bright side: he's experienced and more educated; sexually :p
i'm sure there are many men who'd think the same. :rolleyes:

well to me a virgin is a girl who didnt do a thing

and wake up ppl, a girl who was in love with someone n lost her virginity to?? sorry, wont be my wife...
I'm not saying it's okay to have premarital sex. I'm just saying if you compare two situations, the "virgin" is not always the better choice by default! You never know what she's been up to, that you have no proof of! So don't expect all "virgins" to be totally innocent.

If you don't want to marry a "non-virgin", then that is obviously your personal choice :)

It's just not "virgin" or "non-virgin", there are more than 2 categories of people:
1. The virgin who is innocent and has never done anything
2. The virgin who's only done some stuff (ie kissing)
3. The "virgin" who's messed about with oral and anal sex but whose hymen is intact
4. The non-virgin who lost her virginity by having sexual intercourse but hasn't done some other nastier stuff
5. The non-virgin who's done pretty much everything you can think of

Every situation is different depending on the little details apart from the existence of the hymen!

If he was honest from the beginning then it wouldn't be a "no-no"..I don't think there are many virgin guys out there so I won't be picky.

i'm sure there are many men who'd think the same. :rolleyes:

(NOT) :hyper: atleast not in the Arab world, and especially when it comes to selecting the "wife"!

If that's how you base your standards in choosing the perfect wife, then I won't argue more! Hope you find "purity" in your wife :star:

that's not the only standard :star:



and i understand, if the women feels uncomfortable, knowing her future husband isnt a virgin...


at the end, how would u know that ur wife was fooling around or not??

can u have a proof that she was a virgin that was fooling around??

and i dont think that Earth will have only these 2 cases...

so yah, my wife will be niether (inshallah)

i think if a woman/man is a virgin when marrying, they have to read up on the subject. just lying there is easy. making sex fun and exciting takes a lot of trial and error. discovering how your body works and what excites you and your partner takes years of practice.

(NOT) :hyper: atleast not in the Arab world, and especially when it comes to selecting the "wife"!

Always the double standard with men ('course not all) but it seems that women have to always be held in this certain light up high in the heavens whilst the men get to grovel and worship "us" from afar in their mudpit. :dev:

so what about guys being virgins? what if a girl finds out that he's been with other women before her? would that make him a ''no-no you can't be my husband'' as well?
I saved myself so I don't see why he shouldn't have done the same. I think I deserve the same kind of consideration in return.

I wouldn't knowingly marry a non-virgin. The only way it'd happen is if the guy lied to me about it.

I feel very strongly about anything that is strictly forbidden in our religion (premarital sex, drinking, etc). The way I think is, if he can't respect God's wishes and doesn't fear His punishment, why would he respect mine when I'm nothing compared to someone as great as God?

Or maybe I'm just very judgemental.. hmm.

No not judgemental you have every single right in this entire world to expect your fiance to be a virgin. "You GO girl!!!!!!!!!"

If he was honest from the beginning then it wouldn't be a "no-no"..I don't think there are many virgin guys out there so I won't be picky.

If someone you love hurts you, you cry a river, build a bridge, and get σvέя it

i think if a woman/man is a virgin when marrying, they have to read up on the subject. just lying there is easy. making sex fun and exciting takes a lot of trial and error. discovering how your body works and what excites you and your partner takes years of practice.
I think it's sweet to discover things for the first time together and to experiment and learn what works for them.

Of course, they'd have to have chemistry to begin with.. otherwise it'll all go horribly wrong!

I believe that a non-virgin man has absolutely no right whatsoever to demand for a virgin wife! He's in no position to do so :os Also, he cannot look down at a girl 'coz she is not a virgin, whilst him himself has slept with a couple of others before!

If I was a guy, I'd prefer marrying a non-virgin, whom lost her virginity to a guy, whom she once "loved" yes, it may not be as great, but noway in hell will I accept one who has been through many games.. I'd consider her cheaper than the one who lost her virginity to one guy!

I am virgin, (take my word, wish if I had a proof) and I go for a virgin and yes it matters a thousand time to me :)

The first experience will always be the best experience for both, plus no chance for comparison with both parties... :)

I think it's sweet to discover things for the first time together and to experiment and learn what works for them.

Of course, they'd have to have chemistry to begin with.. otherwise it'll all go horribly wrong!
oh totally agree..the first discovery is beautiful. but they have to have huge amounts of chemistry....which really does help a lot. as in fancying your partner to bits. there are lots of books nowadays (educational not dirty stuff) that will give a couple hints on how their bodies work. they might help in the process and with the lack of experience.

If he was honest from the beginning then it wouldn't be a "no-no"..I don't think there are many virgin guys out there so I won't be picky.
Hmm maybe that's a realistic view about there not being many men who are virgins, but I think if you know where to look, and you're lucky.. they're not impossible to find.

But yeah, I get what you're saying.. people always told me not to expect to marry a guy who's a virgin. It's just the way things work, unfortunately. If the guy knows he can get away with it without any consequences, why wouldn't he go right ahead and do what he wants?

Women aren't cars.
They're not 'things' that are 'used' or 'not used'. They're not 'fresh' and 'not fresh' since they also don't happen to be vegetables.

If it's a woman I love and who I trust she loves me too and who I sense her family is a respected and good family then yes, I'd understand and not torture her for a mistake for the rest of her life.

At least, that's what I feel at this age...I hope I never change my mind as I grow up...

I feel very strongly about anything that is strictly forbidden in our religion (premarital sex, drinking, etc). The way I think is, if he can't respect God's wishes and doesn't fear His punishment, why would he respect mine when I'm nothing compared to someone as great as God?

Or maybe I'm just very judgemental.. hmm.

Libby, of course you're not judgemental. It's your right, especially if you feel very strongly about it.

But in regards to the statements underlined, you do things that are not allowed in Islam (even if they are tiny and are not compared to sex, drinking, etc), would you call that disrespecting God's wishes which also means, since you disrespect God's wishes you wouldn't care about respecting your husband's wishes? No!

I don't want to turn this thread into the religious sabla, but the fact remains, no matter how small the sin you think is, you're disrespecting the BIG one! So I don't agree with you on that.

Libby, of course you're not judgemental. It's your right, especially if you feel very strongly about it.

But in regards to the statements underlined, you do things that are not allowed in Islam (even if they are tiny and are not compared to sex, drinking, etc), would you call that disrespecting God's wishes which also means, since you disrespect God's wishes you wouldn't care about respecting your husband's wishes? No!

I don't want to turn this thread into the religious sabla, but the fact remains, no matter how small the sin you think is, you're disrespecting the BIG one! So I don't agree with you on that.
We all sin, but I believe some sins are greater than others especially if they cause damage to not just the person involved, but other people too. Yes, a minor sin is still a sin regardless, and yes, I'd still be disrespecting God but I think every action has a certain weight. Some things may be excusable while others will never be.

To me, premarital sex and drinking are things I could never accept. They are like the ultimate sins to me. No one on Earth is a saint, but I think some forms of disrespect are maybe easier to excuse or correct compared to others.

im with libellula

those are considered of the highest sins in islam...

I find it bizarre that there are virgins who will have anal sex. I guess they found a loop hole.

We all sin, but I believe some sins are greater than others especially if they cause damage to not just the person involved, but other people too. Yes, a minor sin is still a sin regardless, and yes, I'd still be disrespecting God but I think every action has a certain weight. Some things may be excusable while others will never be.

To me, premarital sex and drinking are things I could never accept. They are like the ultimate sins to me. No one on Earth is a saint, but I think some forms of disrespect are maybe easier to excuse or correct compared to others.

There's no such thing as an ultimate sin. The only 'ultimate sin' I can think of, as in 'unforgivable', is plain shirk.
God loves to forgive everything else if one truly repents. And He, GOD, grants everybody a second chance...That is what we believe being Muslims, I'm assuming you are Muslim, right? Even God, who is capable of giving anyone who wishes eternal torture wishes to give sinners a second chance, it's tough to think that we, as humans, won't grant anyone a second chance to love and be loved in the way that they truly deserve as humans, cause we think they aren't 'fresh' enough. I mean, that IS quite selfish won't you think? (That last question wasn't rhetorical, I'm expecting an answer!)

No kidding J....and I don't consider knocking on the back door as someone still being a virgin. Sorry but that person is not.

There's no such thing as an ultimate sin. The only 'ultimate sin' I can think of, as in 'unforgivable', is plain shirk.
God loves to forgive everything else if one truly repents. And He, GOD, grants everybody a second chance...That is what we believe being Muslims, I'm assuming you are Muslim, right? Even God, who is capable of giving anyone who wishes eternal torture wishes to give sinners a second chance, it's tough to think that we, as humans, won't grant anyone a second chance to love and be loved in the way that they truly deserve as humans, cause we think they aren't 'fresh' enough. I mean, that IS quite selfish won't you think? (That last question wasn't rhetorical, I'm expecting an answer!)

TRY being a Catholic...if we even think of lust in our hearts is a sin...ahhh but another topic altogether. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :yell: :yell: :yell:

There's no such thing as an ultimate sin. The only 'ultimate sin' I can think of, as in 'unforgivable', is plain shirk.
God loves to forgive everything else if one truly repents. And He, GOD, grants everybody a second chance...That is what we believe being Muslims, I'm assuming you are Muslim, right? Even God, who is capable of giving anyone who wishes eternal torture wishes to give sinners a second chance, it's tough to think that we, as humans, won't grant anyone a second chance to love and be loved in the way that they truly deserve as humans, cause we think they aren't 'fresh' enough. I mean, that IS quite selfish won't you think? (That last question wasn't rhetorical, I'm expecting an answer!)
It may be selfish, but the way I see it, God can forgive because there is no chance that God is going to be hurt later, or the sinner's actions are going to affect Him in any way.

Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury. I'd rather not take that chance. Better safe than sorry.

No kidding J....and I don't consider knocking on the back door as someone still being a virgin. Sorry but that person is not.

agree with you...

unless the person had an experience playing in the backyard

^I'm sorry, I didn't catch that one Libellula...
God forgives people because He created them with the capability of making sins. It is in their nature to sin...He, being benevolent and understanding of His creatures, is ready to forgive their mistakes and sins...No matter how big they are, as long as they repent with a pure heart and as long as it is not shirk. Nobody wants to take the chance, and the situation we're talking about, I assume, is one where a woman does a MISTAKE...Something she's not very PROUD about, something she doesn't like to talk about. Something she knows is a sin and is seeking to repent for it...

And then when she does feel she has repented, when she feels like she is forgiven, she is refused any gate of marriage and family because of that mistake. That sounds just...miserable. To pay the price for something you did in sin for your entire life.

^I'm sorry, I didn't catch that one Libellula...
God forgives people because He created them with the capability of making sins. It is in their nature to sin...He, being benevolent and understanding of His creatures, is ready to forgive their mistakes and sins...No matter how big they are, as long as they repent with a pure heart and as long as it is not shirk. Nobody wants to take the chance, and the situation we're talking about, I assume, is one where a woman does a MISTAKE...Something she's not very PROUD about, something she doesn't like to talk about. Something she knows is a sin and is seeking to repent for it...

And then when she does feel she has repented, when she feels like she is forgiven, she is refused any gate of marriage and family because of that mistake. That sounds just...miserable. To pay the price for something you did in sin for your entire life.
I meant, God can forgive a mistake because even if the mistake is repeated later on, it will not affect God in any way.

I cannot forgive such a thing and accept someone who's done such a thing, because I always think if they can do something once, they can definitely do it again.. and I don't want them to do it when I'm with them by their side. It'll affect me knowing that my husband who couldn't resist temptation and slept with someone before I met him, can do it again now after we're married. Also, if something such as drinking is a habit, I don't think it is easy to change overnight. Most people rarely change and will relapse (okay, that's negative, but it's what I believe). I just do not want to be associated with that kind of person, someone who can simply forget things that they were brought up to believe in all their life, and can completely disregard certain aspects of their religion or culture. Their parents and other people spent years teaching them right from wrong, and they'd forget all they've been taught in one moment of weakness?!

Okay I agree we all have weaknesses and are prone to making mistakes, but I guess I'm just saying I'd like to marry someone who has a strong enough character to resist temptation and know what is right and wrong, and stick to the correct path. The minute I find out a person has certain flaws (ie can't control their ding-dong), I immediately lose any interest and some of the respect I had for them - I wouldn't think so highly of them anymore. I would always hold it against them. Therefore, I want someone who is my equal (in every way possible, including morality compass and strength of character), or someone who is a better person than I am, with a better sense of values and principles so that they can help me improve myself.

I think that is the fear some guys have about those women who "slept around" that if they marry this woman not only are these women "tainted" (and they think about how this woman will be the mother of their children).....but once these women have tasted the "forbidden fruit" of another man they may wish to experiment again with a different flavor. But I do commend you on your honesty and know one day you will find the man (or he will find you) and you both will have a long long happy blessed life together.

If it all comes to your choice of partner, then fine...I can't say anything. That is your choice to choose who you want, although I still find it quite judgmental, I again say it is your choice. Maybe you find me too 'free' in return, I don't know...

But if you're gonna go find yourself someone who hasn't 'done' it, and there's plenty, really, one is logical to think that they aren't supposed to be perfect people, anyhow. My point is that no matter how picky one is about his life partner, one will always find something wrong in him, something perhaps even worse than the 'ultimate sins' you mentioned and a lot more shocking...Simply because EVERYONE sins and EVERYONE does mistakes. For me, and if I get to marry such a person, it will be better if I know of such a mistake and help my wife through it all, to make her a better person as she makes me so to, than to live with someone who is trying to act like 'it never happened'.

From my ideal 16-year-old belief, I believe this is what marriage is all about...Getting the person you love to be a better person when she's around you. But, as I said before, maybe I'm just too naive and unknowing and maybe this discussion really needs someone with a bit more...expertise :D

I would definitely go for a virgin girl AND the one who has not done anything, her who body is pure and intact, there are lots of them around, you just need to look at the right place.

If it all comes to your choice of partner, then fine...I can't say anything. That is your choice to choose who you want, although I still find it quite judgmental, I again say it is your choice. Maybe you find me too 'free' in return, I don't know...

But if you're gonna go find yourself someone who hasn't 'done' it, and there's plenty, really, one is logical to think that they aren't supposed to be perfect people, anyhow. My point is that no matter how picky one is about his life partner, one will always find something wrong in him, something perhaps even worse than the 'ultimate sins' you mentioned and a lot more shocking...Simply because EVERYONE sins and EVERYONE does mistakes. For me, and if I get to marry such a person, it will be better if I know of such a mistake and help my wife through it all, to make her a better person as she makes me so to, than to live with someone who is trying to act like 'it never happened'.

From my ideal 16-year-old belief, I believe this is what marriage is all about...Getting the person you love to be a better person when she's around you. But, as I said before, maybe I'm just too naive and unknowing and maybe this discussion really needs someone with a bit more...expertise :D
Perhaps I have extremely high expectations and criteria because I am surrounded by men who I think very highly of, and who I truly consider to be role models. :) I look at them and know that I want someone exactly like them, because I have so much respect for them.

Yes, no one is perfect, we all have flaws and have made mistakes, but different people can tolerate and excuse different things. We all draw a line somewhere.

I agree with you, I think two people in a marriage should help one another be better people. Maybe that's another reason why I want someone who is relatively "sin-fee" or free from big sins. I want them to set an example to me and help me be a better person. I just don't see how they can do that when I disapprove of some of the things they've done and feel very strongly about them.

thready

i know u dont mean it

but ur post, leads people to think, i can do a mistake, n god will forgive me :)

knowing that god created us being able to do sins, and that he is forgiving, doesnt mean that it's ok, and normal...

Since am a virgin and saved myself to my girl ( whom I sill don't know lol ) I won't accept but a virgin girl :) .

You're right in thinking I didn't mean it...
I simply meant the following:
God forgives sins when one repents.
Many humans refuse to do so even when God, who is a lot mightier than they are, does it because they're too bound by things around them and beliefs they believe.
I believe that to be quite a huge sin too since it, essentially, aims to take God's job from Him.

Doing sins is a big deal...How can God forgive you if you have shown no sign of repentance whatsoever? But if you have, and you feel God has accepted it...And you see SIGNS of His accpetance then I'd be freaking angry at the people who are too arrogant to accept you when God Himself did.

That is all I'm saying in a nutshell.

still, there would be a difference, between a person who did the sin, and a person who had the strength to stop doing it, right??

so we cant treat them both the same ;)

Maybe the difference is, you were spared the toughest situation.

Or that God gave you a stronger character.

Amarant: You're supposed to treat EVERYONE the same.
That is the essence of Islam...If you can't do that, you STRIVE to do it and you aim one step at a time to not put judgements or to put too little of them. Being a human, you have enough sins on your back to worry about the others' too.

The one who didn't do the sin might have done worse...The one who did might have been better after he repented and forgiven. Unless you've been hanging around them, catching every sin they made and counted it and came up with the conclusion that one is 'better' of course.

we were taught, that the only difference between humans, is the TAQWA

so, there u go, people are different :)

^Couldn't agree more Amarant.
The only difference is Taqwa.
The only one who measures the degree of Taqwa is...?

I havent read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned before, if it was I apologise.... But how on earth would you even know if she is or isnt a virgin? There are tons of tricks women have used for centuries to con men into believing theyre virgins and now we have modern science. There are a couple of doctors right here in Muscat who will stitch you right back up - good as new. If I was a man I would rather have a girl who was honest and admitted having sex prior to marriage than having her lie to me...... Are men that insecure that they "must" have a girl with no experience? Are they that unsure of their virility?

Last thought here - Ive heard so many men here complain that their wives just lie there, that they dont know anything..... well guys when you marry a virign you take on the added responsibility of having to teach her, how else do you expect her to know? Osmosis...

^Nicely put hijabi, another angle to look at it of course!
Sorry for being the blunt and ignorant guy I am, but...What's 'osmosis' supposed to mean :XD:?

Lol. dictionary - The diffusion of water through a membrane.
I was being sarcastic, some men just expect their wives to absorb sexual prowess through their skins or just cos its in the mans head.......

Ahaaa...I am familiar with the biological term of course, didn't expect it to be there, that's all :D.

Another valid point too...

Thready is starting to sound like a desperate teenager

mama mia I just got back from my meeting and it is almost 9pm. Anyway, great comments made and always wonderful to read varying opinions.

For some reason I had this sudden urge to post in this thread. It's definitely not the first of it's kind, in fact I think another 3 or 4 "virgin/non-virgin" threads and someone like squinty (since he's good at it) could suggest opening a new sabla for such matters.

I'm not entirely sure why I'd like to provide my input in this thread. I don't know whether it was the obviously deceptive innocent like comments that were thrown here, or whether it was the rhetorical-like questions that some foreign members asked or if it's actually out of courtesy to those really willing to seek some answers to questions which I'm about to do my best to try and help out with.

I won't say the non-virgin ones are "better" than the virgin ones, but I'm saying you can't really judge a woman just because she lost her virginity.
Very true. :)
But please allow rationality and common sense into this for just a few seconds and contemplate this:
On average, do you genuinely think that "non-virgin" women have done a better job abiding by the teachings and rulings of their religion and the customs and traditions of the society they have been brought up in than say "virgin" women?
(Please bear in mind these two things are all you need to know to answer this question superficially: a) virgin and b) non-virgin)

well that girl was strong enough to resist the temptation right?? not like the girl who didnt, even if it was once or twice only...
Good point, I see what you're trying to say but this is a case of
عذر أقبح من ذنب
(An excuse lamer than the sin itself (?) )
:)

Probably one of the most realistic points any Omani female has made in this thread:
It's just not "virgin" or "non-virgin", there are more than 2 categories of people:
1. The virgin who is innocent and has never done anything
2. The virgin who's only done some stuff (ie kissing)
3. The "virgin" who's messed about with oral and anal sex but whose hymen is intact
4. The non-virgin who lost her virginity by having sexual intercourse but hasn't done some other nastier stuff
5. The non-virgin who's done pretty much everything you can think of
It's only one of the first two that I could pretty much assure you that ANY Omani male would admittedly be fine with marrying and actually go ahead and do so. With 3 and 4, you'll probably get a couple of hotshots that would entertain the thought and accept it just as far as the conversation goes but wouldn't have the guts to actually marry anyone like that. With 5, that's just a hopeless case... go see one of those doctors and get stitched up or something and try fooling some dimwitted guy.

If I was a guy, I'd prefer marrying a non-virgin, whom lost her virginity to a guy, whom she once "loved"
Something that's certainly much easier said than done, and life's not all rainbows and butterflies.

When one of these darned virgin threads goes up, suddenly we get 66 active members...
If that should imply anything at all about the bunch of us, then it just goes to show the degree of importance that this matter has and the toll it takes on our lives. Virginity has always been directly linked to reputation, pride, honor, dignity and religion. We've been brought up to not only value and cherish such traits but also admire them in others. Such touchy and sensitive issues may not only have the ability to tarnish a young ladies reputation that she most carefully looked after, but they also play a vital role in her pre, post and marital life in our society. Now I'm hoping you knew most of that Jeff, but I thought I'd say it anyway for those out there who might be really wondering. :)


P.S. HITMAN you're a bloody living legend man! :XD:
Back door action you say?

She'd better not do it with someone from an African descent, she'll definitely end up on the table of the proctologist in order get her sphincter function properly again

I find it bizarre that there are virgins who will have anal sex. I guess they found a loop hole.
LOL!

well guys when you marry a virign you take on the added responsibility of having to teach her, how else do you expect her to know? Osmosis...
LOL

I add a 6th in Libellula's list,

6 - The non-virgin who's done everything spiritually. =|

i dont see except for amarant anyone else sticking on the real topic...

for me...i wouldnt mind falling in love with a non virgin...and i dont really think she would ever tell me she isnt a virgin till the night i try to pop her...

if i love her...it doesnt really matter if she is a virgin or not...all matters is if she loves me or not...but still i would prefer a virgin and to teach her how i want it!

Very true. :)
But please allow rationality and common sense into this for just a few seconds and contemplate this:
On average, do you genuinely think that "non-virgin" women have done a better job abiding by the teachings and rulings of their religion and the customs and traditions of the society they have been brought up in than say "virgin" women?
(Please bear in mind these two things are all you need to know to answer this question superficially: a) virgin and b) non-virgin)

I didn't prefer one over the other. I just said I can't see how you can differ between the both when it's to do with a simple freaking "hymen"! Of course when it comes to religion, customs and traditions the non-virgin one is black listed, but as other members posted she could just have it back and make you men happy not knowing her history.

you know a virgin can be a virgin but lost hers becouse she had an accident or it was too thin so it broke coz of the slightest rough action ( eg: horse bk riding )
so its never by that thing ( i 4got its name) that's proof .. if your with some1 u can sence the amout of their knowlegde n how they react n act..

these days they r countless educational sites n book that teach u about sex, maybe a gal read alot of these things n does things a lil more then a virgin can dijust, but if your her husband.. u should know her well enough..

I cannot forgive such a thing and accept someone who's done such a thing, because I always think if they can do something once, they can definitely do it again.. and I don't want them to do it when I'm with them by their side. It'll affect me knowing that my husband who couldn't resist temptation and slept with someone before I met him, can do it again now after we're married.


What if he wasn't the type of guy who pays for sex or just does it randomly? What if he was only doing it with one person because he was truly in love?! :rolleyes: And don't tell me men who love their girlfriends so much never lie a finger on them LOL .. If the woman accepts it, the man won't resist and he will definately not say "no I don't want" :dev: Also, some men just do it once out of curiousty; to know how it feels like and that's it, not to keep on doing it again and again..

Also, so you're saying that you won't accept a non-virgin husband just because he "did it" ?! What if he did everything else except that? What if he kissed, physically got intimate with other women, been to strip clubs, masturbrated all night watching porn?!

I don't think "chemistry" is about doing it both together the first time. Chemistry comes when both of you do it out of love. If the first time matters to you so much, does that mean all the sex that comes after the first time has no chemistry? Honestly, from a woman who's married (me), everytime my husband and I sleep together it's like the first time (it's always better than the previous ones) -- I think that's what matters, not the first time..

Psychologically it might affect you and lead you onto thinking about what we've been taught and what Islam does say (which I am not against), but realistically it's the chemistry you develop between the both of you; husband and wife.

I am not standing by "marry a second hand person" but I am standing by "don't reject a good man/woman because of his/her virginty".

I didn't prefer one over the other. I just said I can't see how you can differ between the both when it's to do with a simple freaking "hymen"! Of course when it comes to religion, customs and traditions the non-virgin one is black listed, but as other members posted she could just have it back and make you men happy not knowing her history.
The hymen is not all that us men are concerned about, it goes beyond that. So it would be foolish to solely rely on a biological part in a womans body that no one should ever get even close to pre-maritally. It would be easier to judge by whatever we are offered with, and in most cases that's what one bases their judgment on; whatever they are offered with. So if I am offered with two boxes of apples, both of which I can only see the top couple of apples, and one seems to have red, ripe apples whereas the other seems to have a couple of crushed ones and/or worms coming out of them, my natural instinct would tell me to go for the red ripe apples, despite the fact that whatever is within the two boxes is unknown to me.

The ripe red apples box could have been dumped into the sewer and then washed off with carcinogenic chemicals and then buffed clean, whereas the other box could be a box of organic apples that are just as good as any other apples if it were not for the top couple of ones. These are the cases you are presenting us with Endure Whisper and only Allah is the all-knowing. :)

The same goes for the case I mentioned in my previous case. :)

^ If you're going for a completely clean (untouched) woman (never kissed, hugged, etc..) then yes, I am on your side.

BUT, if you had two choices:

1) Non-virgin.
OR
2) Virgin (but did everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, except losing her hymen)..

And you select the Virgin one just because she held herself at some point, then I don't see the common sense in that; that's if you truly believe that it goes beyond the hymen being lost issue.

things with repuations cant be really hidden.. so some1 will say something if the gal was messing with guys b4 him.. sexual or not, then a man can pick n make up his mind.. some men r okay with it as long as she stays loyel to him after they've met.. everything that happened b4 is past

BUT, if you had two choices:

1) Non-virgin.
OR
2) Virgin (but did everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, except losing her hymen)..

And you select the Virgin one just because she held herself at some point, then I don't see the common sense in that; that's if you truly believe that it goes beyond the hymen being lost issue.
If I HAD to choose from the two cases above I'd certainly for the virgin for one obvious reason and that is, what makes me so sure that the non-virgin (who's gone the whole nine yards) hasn't done the same crap the virgin has. I'd have no other choice but to assume she has. Which in this case gives one of them a benefit over the other. :)

There you go! Finally, an answer I'd accept lol!

What if he wasn't the type of guy who pays for sex or just does it randomly? What if he was only doing it with one person because he was truly in love?! :rolleyes: And don't tell me men who love their girlfriends so much never lie a finger on them LOL .. If the woman accepts it, the man won't resist and he will definately not say "no I don't want" :dev: Also, some men just do it once out of curiousty; to know how it feels like and that's it, not to keep on doing it again and again..
Obviously every situation is different. A guy who did it once out of curiosity or who only slept with one person who he was madly in love with, is not the same as one who regularly goes and sleeps with prostitutes. If you're asking me which situation is "better" and I had to pick, I would be able to choose one who I think is "better" than the others. What I'm saying is, if I could have one of those or someone who has never engaged in premarital sex, obviously I'd take the guy who hasn't had sex before. I personally am not willing to accept any of the others. Why should I, when I've saved myself? Don't I deserve the same in return? Also, there ARE men who are virgins, so I don't see why I should settle for less? There are all kinds of men and everyone has a different story, but it's not like virgin men are impossible to find. If I can have a virgin (realistically speaking), then I want one. I think most people can, our society hasn't been completely corrupted - there are still apples in the basket worth picking.


Also, so you're saying that you won't accept a non-virgin husband just because he "did it" ?! What if he did everything else except that? What if he kissed, physically got intimate with other women, been to strip clubs, masturbrated all night watching porn?!
I won't accept a non-virgin, period. As for the others, to me, it depends on the situation, but "seeing" is better than "doing" (with regards to going to a strip club). I can excuse kissing and making out to a certain point. I can excuse going to strip clubs only if it wasn't a regular habit, and it happened when the guy was younger and a lot more immature than he is today, plus he obviously should not have been the recipient of any "services". As for porn and masturbation, I wouldn't particularly like the idea, but if the guy's not sleeping with someone I can understand that he may need another outlet....
I'm just saying it's not all black and white, it depends on the details of the situation, but at the end of the day I would not marry a non-virgin knowingly.


I don't think "chemistry" is about doing it both together the first time. Chemistry comes when both of you do it out of love. If the first time matters to you so much, does that mean all the sex that comes after the first time has no chemistry? Honestly, from a woman who's married (me), everytime my husband and I sleep together it's like the first time (it's always better than the previous ones) -- I think that's what matters, not the first time..

Psychologically it might affect you and lead you onto thinking about what we've been taught and what Islam does say (which I am not against), but realistically it's the chemistry you develop between the both of you; husband and wife.

I am not standing by "marry a second hand person" but I am standing by "don't reject a good man/woman because of his/her virginty".
I never said chemistry is related to how many times you sleep with someone. Chemistry is either there or not from the beginning, regardless of a person's sexual history. It's something between the two of you and it's purely physical/sexual, and doesn't take anything else into account. It's not something you can build up or control. It's just there. You either have it or you don't.

All I said with regards to sharing your first time together is that it sounds like a beautiful experience. There's just something sweet about two people learning something new together, making mistakes together, and improving together. Sure, any first encounter with someone will be special even if one of the people involved has done it before with somebody else. But I think it's even more special when they're both discovering something very new for the very first time.

Also, not all non-virgins are bad people. Some of them are good people with bad habits, or good people who've made mistakes. I'm just saying that personally I find some mistakes unforgivable and therefore I won't accept them. Other people might forgive and accept, that's their choice.. we're all different at the end of the day :)

you all are loving this thread aren't you :rolleyes:
hmm..well, let me just say something...it's not in anyway fair for a non-virgin man to want a virgin woman..i mean..come on..why is it ok for him and not ok for her..i'm saying that BOTH should be smart and fight temptation..why is that so hard?? and yes, there ARE virgin men out there and there is NO shame in that whatsoever but in a time like this (time of troubles) people think it's shocking and weird and "un-manly" pfff! dokom...wake up people! can't you just wait for your wife/husband??? gosh!

and thank God i am totally pure..i've never had anyone TOUCH ME! NOTHING! so it's ALL up for my husband...he can have that pleasure of being the FIRST. And i too will find someone just as pure..i know there are some out there and inshallah i will have him:D

I think we need a third choice...

i dont see except for amarant anyone else sticking on the real topic...

for me...i wouldnt mind falling in love with a non virgin...and i dont really think she would ever tell me she isnt a virgin till the night i try to pop her...

if i love her...it doesnt really matter if she is a virgin or not...all matters is if she loves me or not...but still i would prefer a virgin and to teach her how i want it!

ahem.....when you are in a loving relationship you teach each other what you like doing. being virgins you'll know less and less. it takes time and a lot of exploration. learning from others (books, internet) does help.

I havent read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned before, if it was I apologise.... But how on earth would you even know if she is or isnt a virgin? There are tons of tricks women have used for centuries to con men into believing theyre virgins and now we have modern science. There are a couple of doctors right here in Muscat who will stitch you right back up - good as new. If I was a man I would rather have a girl who was honest and admitted having sex prior to marriage than having her lie to me...... Are men that insecure that they "must" have a girl with no experience? Are they that unsure of their virility?

Last thought here - Ive heard so many men here complain that their wives just lie there, that they dont know anything..... well guys when you marry a virign you take on the added responsibility of having to teach her, how else do you expect her to know? Osmosis...

she just lies there....and then he has his hot bit on the side.

So.. what ever happens to this whole virgin thingy when a man takes a second wife? Or when a man marries a divorced woman?

How many men in here are prepared to marry a woman who has slept with someone else before.. if that person was her husband?

That would be interesting to know.

Thready is starting to sound like a desperate teenager

Thready IS a desperate teenager.
That's nothing to be proud about but since you mentioned it...
I fail, however, to see the reason of your interest in that.

:) Good one!

If I was a guy and had to choose between a woman who's had sex once or twice (lost her virginity) and a woman who's been physically active with men (but a virgin), I am definately going for the non-virgin one! Maybe I would change my mind if I was a guy, but realistically that's the right choice if I was up for the "right" woman!

I think you should "think about it" :)
I know you might find her good (I am talking to if you were a man) and all but she might betray you! :)
That is what I think and why men usually go for the virgins.

I really don't care.
I never ask or wonder about these things.
I just want someone who is good to love me for who I am and will take care of the kids! :cute:

If she was a virgin so be it. If she was not.. Then maybe I will have my doubts but I will not hide anything from her and never change.

Betrayl has nothing to do with sex. Your wife could cheat on you anyway even if she was a virgin. I don't buy the old tales they always say: "If he was like that before, he would always be like that". Of course the chances are higher, but you can't base your judgements on that only.

if a person has been with other people before you, that's not betrayal.

^ In addition, whatever they did in the past doesn't concern you. You weren't there to begin with!

i guess AP described my opinion best...

if u cant be sure of anything, then going with the virgin is safer......

and i know ur guys are putting the relegion aside, but, again, i will say it, i wont marry a women who lost her virginity to her "love"...

but if she, as thaalia said, did it with a husband, then it might bother me a little, but it's comfy to know she did it with her husband, and she didnt cross the relegion limits :)

Reuters
Wed Apr 9
According to the research, the face on the right is of someone who is more likely to be interested in a short-term sexual relationship whilst the one on the left is more likely to be interested in a long-term relationship.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/image-shows-pair-computerised-averaged-facial-photographs-taken-real-people/photo//080409/photos_ts/2008_04_09t145612_450x283_us_britain_faces/;_ylt=AuzQVfNszm3XIx8LyVft9ucEtbAF

Basic issue is trust. You gotta trust that person and then there is respect. When you are married you respect yourself, your partner and the feelings you have for one another.

Reuters
Wed Apr 9
According to the research, the face on the right is of someone who is more likely to be interested in a short-term sexual relationship whilst the one on the left is more likely to be interested in a long-term relationship.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/image-shows-pair-computerised-averaged-facial-photographs-taken-real-people/photo//080409/photos_ts/2008_04_09t145612_450x283_us_britain_faces/;_ylt=AuzQVfNszm3XIx8LyVft9ucEtbAF

Hahaha, no kidding! :hyper:

I can't tell the difference in the faces except the one on the right the face looks "softer" someone help.

i read that article in another paper. the 'bigger' eyes say 'i want it now '. so if you want a virgin, make sure you go for the smaller eyed women, if she's got her eyes closed, you can rest assured she's never left her own house, thus ensuring her purity.

Well, I have slanted doe eyes go figure. I think it has to do more than looks. :D

i read that article in another paper. the 'bigger' eyes say 'i want it now '. so if you want a virgin, make sure you go for the smaller eyed women, if she's got her eyes closed, you can rest assured she's never left her own house, thus ensuring her purity.

then i'd go for chinese women :p

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=558233&in_page_id=1879

^that's the article i was referring to....amarant study it :hyper:

It's only one of the first two that I could pretty much assure you that ANY Omani male would admittedly be fine with marrying and actually go ahead and do so

Then again, how will you know for a fact that she is telling the truth or not? :rolleyes:

And don't tell me men who love their girlfriends so much never lie a finger on them LOL .. If the woman accepts it, the man won't resist and he will definately not say "no I don't want" :dev:

wow that's generalizing in a very bad way...

maybe lie a finger, but make her loose her virginity? and in oman?? if he TRUELY loves her, he wont do that...

Well if i was a guy i would prefer to be single and not getting married to any of those!

really!

how could some defend the one who lost her virginity with a man

and how could some in the other hand defend the one who did EVERYTHING and didn't lost it!

and btw some girls are not really virgin ..and after they lose their virginity they go to a doctor to get under the knife to get her virginity back..

its just sick ,, i wouldn't go for any sorry

^ In addition, whatever they did in the past doesn't concern you. You weren't there to begin with!
I beg to differ here. In the case of the two of you ending up together happily married, and especially in the society we live in, I think it would be much more than courteous of your significant other to be open with you about things that might be unpleasant to find out later on in the marriage.

You don't want to live by the fact that "whatever I did in the past doesn't concern you, because you were never there to begin with" because you don't want your husband coming back from work one day having found out that one of his close buddies at work has had a relationship in the past with his own wife. Just one example among many hypothetical scenarios that may arise from such ways of life. :)

Then again, how will you know for a fact that she is telling the truth or not? :rolleyes:
OR even better, what makes us so sure we're not living a big lie. Maybe the whole world is just one big as$ conspiracy theory. Maybe, just maybe, George W. Bush isn't as dim-witted as we might think he is.

My point is, once again, it would be easier to judge by whatever we are offered with, and in most cases that's what one bases their judgment on; whatever they are offered with. (refer to the apples example above)

Oh and please bare in mind that in real life nothing is as simple as the discussion we have here. It's not just "If you're a virgin then let's make babies". All this is just for the sake of this particular discussion. :)

Wow! So just because a woman has had sex before marriage shes a ho, she cant be trusted and shes likely to hava an affair? And here I thought the time of myths and old wives tales was starting to pass in Oman. Silly me......

Premarital sex DOES NOT make you a ho and certainly has nothing to do whether or not a woman (or man for that matter) will stay faithful in a marriage. We all know there are plenty of woman here who were virgins when they got married and are now having affairs with every Tom, Dick and Harry who asks. And the whole "If they only slept with one person...." scenario is hysterical, ROFL Firstly what difference would it make if it was 1 or 10? And secondly (and this is the really funny bit) most men/women esp out here have only slept with one, one mistake...... or so they say ROFL ROFL

Personally I think men who MUST have a virgin are the men who are... Hmmmm how to be subtle here...... well, men who lack "skills" Whenever you sleep with someone new its a discovery, people are different, techniques differ and so do your emotions. Women certainly do not think about past lovers while making love to a new partner! OMG!

One last thought - keeping your spouse faithful is YOUR responsibility. My mama always said "Husbands are like kids, you need to keep them entertained, interested and make them feel loved" Same rule applies to woman. And of course there are just some people who will stray no matter what you do or whether or not they were virgins.... *still giggling* only one ROFL

Personally I think men who MUST have a virgin are the men who are... Hmmmm how to be subtle here...... well, men who lack "skills" Whenever you sleep with someone new its a discovery, people are different, techniques differ and so do your emotions. Women certainly do not think about past lovers while making love to a new partner! OMG!



That is confusing, are you with or against committing adultery?

I think the underlying principle here is, if she is a virgin (in the true sense of the word), then it implies

a) She fears God as she did not commit one of the biggest sins known to us (adultery).
b) She is strong enough to resist temptations.
c) She is smart enough to care about the society we live in and her reputation. If she cares about her reputation, she will care about her family's too and in society, that counts for a lot.

I get all that. However, with Endure's example, if for a FACT you know that the virgin is only a so called virgin because her hymen is intact but she took part in all other kinds of acts, while the other one just lost her virginity once to the man she loved, then who would you choose?

I will choose the non-virgin. I mean, she made a mistake true, but at least, it was once, not like the other who was cunning enough to do everything apart from the breaking of the hymen. She calculated her actions. She manipulated society to get away with her sins. I mean she is cunning enough to try to "fool" you, so how can you even trust her to be your wife? While the other one has had sex but at least she is honest about it. It's the person that she is today that matters. I think if I was a guy, I will be more scared of the virgin because of her obvious "nature" of deceit.

I beg to differ here. In the case of the two of you ending up together happily married, and especially in the society we live in, I think it would be much more than courteous of your significant other to be open with you about things that might be unpleasant to find out later on in the marriage.

You don't want to live by the fact that "whatever I did in the past doesn't concern you, because you were never there to begin with" because you don't want your husband coming back from work one day having found out that one of his close buddies at work has had a relationship in the past with his own wife. Just one example among many hypothetical scenarios that may arise from such ways of life. :)


Well, I won't judge what's he done in the past. Seriously. I mean, what can I do about it? Would I ruin my marriage or refuse marrying him just because I care about what he's done before he was ever committed to me?! That doesn't make sense.

I know my husband's past, but maybe I don't know everything.. but do I care? No. I never asked him.. Everything I knew was due to a conversation with friends and family who knew him before I knew him and sometimes he tells me he did this and that. It's funny to see the guy he was, it's his history and everyone has one. Instead of judging it, why not sit back and laugh about it? :hyper:

I mean there's more to a relationship/marriage than judging your spouse's past and what they did when you weren't in the picture. Think about it that way.

That is confusing, are you with or against committing adultry?

Whats confusing? Of course Im against adultery! Adultery is when you have sex with someone other than your spouse. We are not talking about adultery, its about sex BEFORE marriage. A little different... and if you want to take the Islamic view on this then lets be honest....

1. In Islam the sin of fornication is not limited to the physical act but also to thoughts and looks. So are you saying you would only marry someone who has never thought about sex? jeez, I dont think youre gonna get married any time soon Ice, gonna be a long wait for ya. And you, of course, have never thought about it? Right?:rolleyes:

2. Allah has said that if youcommit a sin, you should keep it to yourself, it is between you and Him. Soooooo, its not anyones business if youve had sex or not.

3. EVERYONE sins, we all make mistakes. Isnt that why the Prophet taught us the prayer of repentance? fasting? Hajj? and most importantly Allah has said if you repent then inshaAllah He will forgive you. Is man more powerful than Allah? I think not!

So from a religious perspective Ice, theres still no excuse. Oh almost forgot - ALL the Prophets wives (except for Aisha) were NOT virgins when he married them...... wouldnt that be a Sunnah then? ;) So if he wasnt concerned about it why are you?:)

I think the underlying principle here is, if she is a virgin (in the true sense of the word), then it implies

a) She fears God as she did not commit one of the biggest sins known to us (adultery).
b) She is strong enough to resist temptations.
c) She is smart enough to care about the society we live in and her reputation. If she cares about her reputation, she will care about her family's too and in society, that counts for a lot.

I get all that. However, with Endure's example, if for a FACT you know that the virgin is only a so called virgin because her hymen is intact but she took part in all other kinds of acts, while the other one just lost her virginity once to the man she loved, then who would you choose?

I will choose the non-virgin. I mean, she made a mistake true, but at least, it was once, not like the other who was cunning enough to do everything apart from the breaking of the hymen. She calculated her actions. She manipulated society to get away with her sins. I mean she is cunning enough to try to "fool" you, so how can you even trust her to be your wife? While the other one has had sex but at least she is honest about it. It's the person that she is today that matters. I think if I was a guy, I will be more scared of the virgin because of her obvious "nature" of deceit.


Well said. I think a lot of people are living in a dream world, where women are perfect. :) Ahhhhh if only.....:D

In Islam, a non-virgin woman, or a non-virgin man both are equal, both get the same punishment as well. There's no double standard. Put blind-stupid traditions aside, and deal with it Islamically

+Salam

hijabi, there is no difference between having sex before marraige and adultery, it's all adultery, however, the Islamic ruling is different depending on wheather the person (who has committed adultery) is marraid or not.

About point one, as far as I know you are excused for the evil desire thoughts but I agree with you about the looking (which is considered as an arow from Iblees arows) and that is why Islam taught both men and women to lower their gazes because it can lead to other major sins.

Point 2, I agree but a muslim man should seek a pious and righteous and the hadeeth states that the woman is married for four reasons (one of them religious factor) which is the one should be favoured above other reasons (beauty, family, etc).

About saying the prophet wives were all not virgins, I don't see how is that related to the topic, because here the discussion is about having illegal relationships not if the woman was married before or not.

Actually Ice, the discussion is about whether or not to marry a virigin. the point is that men are quick to judge women and make statements that Islamically you must marry a virgin, but how can that be when the Prophet did not? In facgt the Prophets most loved wife Khadija had been married a couple of times before she married him..... but he loved her more than any other. Now Im sitting here reading MUSLIM men say that non virgins are bad ppl......HUH? Where did that come from?

And no Ice, adultery and fornication are not the same, the punishment in Islam is not the same, they dont mean the same thing. It IS different.

If it's Islamically a must to marry a virgin woman then it means divorced women can't marry (as in Christianity) but it is not the case in Islam.

What is the difference between adultery and sex before marraige from the Islamic point of view?

The punishment for fornication is 100 lashes for both the man and the woman or being removed from society til they repent (ie prostitutes) The punishment for adultery or open lewdness/ creating disorder (rape) is stoning to death or worse.

I agree that in the eyes of Allah a sin is a sin but there is a difference between fornicating and commiting adultery. And while we're on the topic..... dont forget you need the 4 witnesses.

And upon those of your women who habitually commit fornication, call in four people among yourselves to testify over them; if they testify [to their ill-ways], confine them to their homes till death overtakes them or God finds another way for them. And the man and woman among you who commit fornication, punish them. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. For God is Oft-Forgiving and most Merciful. (4:15-16)

note the verse I put in bold

He among you who gets involved in such filth should hide behind the veil stretched out for him by Allah, but if he unfolds the veil, we shall implement the law of Allah upon him. (Mu'atta, Kitabu’l Hudud)

Similarly, he once told a person:

If you had hidden the crime of this [person], it would have been better for you. (Mu'atta, Kitabu’l Hudud)

That is what I said in my previous post the punishment is different:

the Islamic ruling is different depending on wheather the person (who has committed adultery) is marraid or not.

However, in Islamic term both acts are called 'zina'.

virgin or non-virgin, that would always depend on the girl's personality.
There are girls who play "Lady of Mecca" (thats what I call them) to those who are close to them, just to fool them and make them think that they're pure, while they're really not.
There are girls, on the other hand, who never fool those who are getting close to them and give them the whole image in colors, nothing to hide.
I respect the latter type of girls more.
There are women who stay virgin and after they get married they start playing around. There are women who are non-virgin but do not play around after marriage.
Everything.is.possible!

Wow! So just because a woman has had sex before marriage shes a ho, she cant be trusted and shes likely to hava an affair? And here I thought the time of myths and old wives tales was starting to pass in Oman. Silly me......

Premarital sex DOES NOT make you a ho and certainly has nothing to do whether or not a woman (or man for that matter) will stay faithful in a marriage. We all know there are plenty of woman here who were virgins when they got married and are now having affairs with every Tom, Dick and Harry who asks. And the whole "If they only slept with one person...." scenario is hysterical, ROFL Firstly what difference would it make if it was 1 or 10? And secondly (and this is the really funny bit) most men/women esp out here have only slept with one, one mistake...... or so they say ROFL ROFL

Personally I think men who MUST have a virgin are the men who are... Hmmmm how to be subtle here...... well, men who lack "skills" Whenever you sleep with someone new its a discovery, people are different, techniques differ and so do your emotions. Women certainly do not think about past lovers while making love to a new partner! OMG!

One last thought - keeping your spouse faithful is YOUR responsibility. My mama always said "Husbands are like kids, you need to keep them entertained, interested and make them feel loved" Same rule applies to woman. And of course there are just some people who will stray no matter what you do or whether or not they were virgins.... *still giggling* only one ROFL

I agree with you on on this one and unlike sweet Tea's confusion I can see you are against adultry. I can understand where you are getting at and amen to everything you said and then some.

The reason behind how or why she lost her virginity is what really matters.

I believe marrying a virgin lady gives some sort of inner peace/trust between the couple. A non virgin one will just add more complication to their marriage life.

About the one who had some nights with men and with an intact verginity is ruled out from my list. She is a certified ......!!

In my defenition, virginty goes byond a hymen being broken or not. Its in the attitude of the woman/man. Being chaste means saving yourself from getting into anything (including kissing and hugging). I think men in Oman also dont mean "hymen" when they talk about virginity but are talking about pure women. I know young divorced women who were proposed to by single bachelor respectful men. that gives an indication that what they are looking for is purity.

I think we need to have our standered up to save our society. If we kept on saying "oh its forgivable to have sex before marraige" it would be eaiser sin to commit. Allah forgives everything is a person repented but thats not a blank card to accept big sins (and sex outside marraige bound is considered one of the big 10 sins).
This is why, in Ibadhi sect, its haram to marry someone you for sure know had sex outside marraige. If you know they did, your marraige cant happen. Its harsh I know, and goes against honesty in marraige that alot of people call for but it is stop people accepting such a sin and to insist that a marriage should be based on "sakina" (peace at heart is best how I can translate it).

hijabi, there is no difference between having sex before marraige and adultery, it's all adultery, however, the Islamic ruling is different depending on wheather the person (who has committed adultery) is marraid or not.



Round and round we go......... Maybe its a language thing...

Ok so if you knew there was a difference when it comes to punishment why did you ask? And secondly if theres a different punishment.... uh well then it must be a different thing.

Adultery: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations;When one spouse has sexual intercourse with a third party.

fornication: is a term which refers to sexual intercourse between consenting unmarried partners. Sex between unmarried persons

See the difference?:rolleyes: :)
Thanks marianna, glad to see someone get its

I do....I have seen some very good women who have not had the most "pure" lifestyle but does that make them a bad person no...I think if they are truly lost say spiritually or emotionally God forgives that and those transgressions are between God and the sinner. Will God love a woman less because of these things? I find it hard to believe that God would not love a woman if she transgressed....once she realizes her sins and repents...finds a way to quit sleeping around or gets married etc....who are any of us to judge....God judges in the end and virgin or not I always look at a woman's heart, a woman's soul....

IAllah forgives everything is a person repented but thats not a blank card to accept big sins (and sex outside marraige bound is considered one of the big 10 sins).


Quick list: (in order of degree)
1. Associating partners with Allaah (Shirk)
Great Shirk: worshipping beings other than Allaah (proof all over Qur'ân)
Small Shirk: Riya
2. Committing murder: (Furqan; 68)
3. Performing Sorcery (2: 102)
4. Not performing the Prayers (Maryam: 59)
5. With holding the Zakah (Charity) (3: 180)
6. Breaking the fast of Ramadhan or not fasting in that month without a valid excuse.
7. Not performing the pilgrimage when one has the ability to do so
8. Disobeying one's parents (al-Isra: 23)
9. Cutting off the ties of relationships (Muhammad: 22)
10. Committing adultery or fornication (al-Isra: 30)
11. Committing sodomy

I agree, it doesnt mean we can just do as we please, but Allah does forgive those who repent and in my above post I mentioned the verse where He says if someone repents - people cannot punish them. Perhaps you could tell me why it is we concentrate so much on number 11 and not on say No5 (plenty ppl commit that one) and No8 and 9? Why women are the only ones punished/ penalised?

This is why, in Ibadhi sect, its haram to marry someone you for sure know had sex outside marraige. If you know they did, your marraige cant happen. Its harsh I know, and goes against honesty in marraige that alot of people call for but it is stop people accepting such a sin and to insist that a marriage should be based on "sakina" (peace at heart is best how I can translate it).

I'd heard that but that goes against the teachings and morals of the Quoran and the Prophet - remember Prophet Muhammed (SAW) married a whole bunch of women who were not virgins.;):os And there are some Ibadhi scholars who disagree as so do Sunni and Shia

..but Allah does forgive those who repent and in my above post I mentioned the verse where He says if someone repents

Is that with my knowledge *how sinful* of committing that action or with me being ignorant *how sinful* of that action?

I agree, it doesnt mean we can just do as we please, but Allah does forgive those who repent and in my above post I mentioned the verse where He says if someone repents - people cannot punish them. Perhaps you could tell me why it is we concentrate so much on number 11 and not on say No5 (plenty ppl commit that one) and No8 and 9? Why women are the only ones punished/ penalised?

I'd heard that but that goes against the teachings and morals of the Quoran and the Prophet - remember Prophet Muhammed (SAW) married a whole bunch of women who were not virgins.;):os And there are some Ibadhi scholars who disagree as so do Sunni and Shia

Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: married Divorced, widowed women .. he didnt marry women who committed adultry or forincication!!!!

Regarding being specific on no11 only ..who said so .. when I was about to marry I made sure the person is god fearing .. if he is god fearing he will make sure that avoide those 10 sins.
Plus, Allah forgives those sins not me .. I cant be sure how well he repented .. and I cant be sure if Allah accepted his repetence..
Allah said in the Quran "al 6ayboon lil 6ayaibat" and since I consider myself "6ayiba" then I should not lower my standered and try my best to marry a "6ayab" as far as my knowledge goes.

Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: married Divorced, widowed women .. he didnt marry women who committed adultry or forincication!!!!

My sweet lil Princess, I really really dont want to get into this online but actually he very well could have. Take a look at the history of the period and then take a look at where and who his wives were. Add it all up..... And again I ask, why are only the women penalised? :rolleyes:

Marianna, you said it! Love the way you phrased it.

Ok so if you knew there was a difference when it comes to punishment why did you ask? And secondly if theres a different punishment.... uh well then it must be a different thing.

The act is the same but the punishment is different.


Adultery: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations;When one spouse has sexual intercourse with a third party.

fornication: is a term which refers to sexual intercourse between consenting unmarried partners. Sex between unmarried persons

See the difference?:rolleyes: :)


That is what is mentioned in the dictionary, but the arabic word mentioned in the Quran is 'zina'. Below verse is talking about umarried persons.


The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime, but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law).

So it it's a language thing but we should always get back to the Quran words when discussing it from Islamic view.

Thanks hijabi I always try to speak from my heart. :love:

My sweet lil Princess, I really really dont want to get into this online but actually he very well could have. Take a look at the history of the period and then take a look at where and who his wives were. Add it all up..... And again I ask, why are only the women penalised? :rolleyes:

Marianna, you said it! Love the way you phrased it.

If you mean since it was before Islam .. then Allah forgived anything that happened before Islam came in place .. it was like a new era .. anyway .. I dont think we are here to comapre "umhat al mo2meen - prophet's wives" to us today ..

Who said women are only penalised?? I mentioned how I will not accept non visrgin men too.. and no its not the hymen that judges that so men can be non virgins! I am for raising the standered for both MEN and WOMEN.

Sadly though in today's society and this is even true in the USA men look down on non-virgins...a man wants a "pure" woman for his wife because that wife will bear his children (if he wants kids) and well...that will be his wife...global double standards for sure.

My sweet lil Princess, I really really dont want to get into this online but actually he very well could have. Take a look at the history of the period and then take a look at where and who his wives were. Add it all up.....

hijabi, remove such thoughts from your mind, you are talking about our great prophet here not any simple man, Allah will not allow his beloved prophet to marry except chaste, pure and clean women.

Sadly though in today's society and this is even true in the USA men look down on non-virgins...a man wants a "pure" woman for his wife because that wife will bear his children (if he wants kids) and well...that will be his wife...global double standards for sure.

If women know this fact, why they accept to sleep with strange men?

Is it a shame in the western societies that the girl reach 18 years old and she is still virgin?

I side with hijabi on this one because she looks at things in a logical historical prespective. I am sure God knew what was in the hearts of Mohammad and his wives and that did not make Mohammad or those wives less in God's eyes.....God explained as you say to Mohammad religion and after that behavior changed.

Actually more teens are taking the virgin oath to remain chaste until marriage. Not all young people Ice are fornicators. Ok...gotta get ready for work...will ck this post later this morning.

If you mean since it was before Islam .. then Allah forgived anything that happened before Islam came in place .. it was like a new era .. anyway .. I dont think we are here to comapre "umhat al mo2meen - prophet's wives" to us today ..

Who said women are only penalised?? I mentioned how I will not accept non visrgin men too.. and no its not the hymen that judges that so men can be non virgins! I am for raising the standered for both MEN and WOMEN.

Good for you! I wish everyone felt that it applied to BOTH sexes. And I agree, I really dont want to go into the Prophet wives. :):heart:

Ice, my man, in ENGLISH there is a big difference and although the basic Arabic word may be "zinah" the Quoran also differentiates between married or unmarried. Round and round and round we go.....:rolleyes: It may just be a language thing but it becomes confusing if you use the wrong word - imagine if I said : "half" instead of "la half" (one is underwear and the other is headscarf:p) Makes a difference......

this thread is not about Islamic perspectives on language or virginity - its about how men feel about non virgins. If you really want to get into this I'll open an Islamic thread on the issue, sure you can handle it?:)

This is why, in Ibadhi sect, its haram to marry someone you for sure know had sex outside marraige. If you know they did, your marraige cant happen. Its harsh I know, and goes against honesty in marraige that alot of people call for but it is stop people accepting such a sin and to insist that a marriage should be based on "sakina" (peace at heart is best how I can translate it).

I've heard of this, and that's yet another reason why one shouldn't knowingly marry someone who's had pre-marital sex.

A lot of people don't seem to agree with this ruling though..

I thought that the Ibadhi sector doesn't allow marriage between two people who had sex together before marriage, and not marriage between any non-virgins.

If women know this fact, why they accept to sleep with strange men?

Is it a shame in the western societies that the girl reach 18 years old and she is still virgin?

:no::os Ice..... very few girls sleep with "strangers" they sleep with men they love. And as Marianna said there are a lot of young ppl around the world who choose to wait for marriage for a number of reasons.

Ice, you really got to stop watching MBC Action - its not real sweetie, its just fiction:p

A lot of people don't seem to agree with this ruling though..

Yes, and I know alot of people who consider the sect too strict when it comes to this .. however I think when marraige comes in place, I strongly beleive sakina is very important .. you dont want to be in doubt if your marraige is valid or not .. so to in order to shut that little doubt in you, a person needs to be careful on who they accept for marraige.
This is what I think.

I thought that the Ibadhi sector doesn't allow marriage between two people who had sex together before marriage, and not marriage between any non-virgins.

That, and this too. They say if you did a mistake and you truly repented you shouldnt go and tell the person you married about it. Allah managed to cover it up for you so you need to keep it covered. Telling the future spouse will creat a place of doubt in the heart of the two and that goes against the fact that marraige is about sakina. There is a verse in the Quran that says that "al zani la yanka7 ila zaniya aw mushrika"

:no::os Ice..... very few girls sleep with "strangers" they sleep with men they love. And as Marianna said there are a lot of young ppl around the world who choose to wait for marriage for a number of reasons.

Ice, you really got to stop watching MBC Action - its not real sweetie, its just fiction:p

A men who they love is also considered a stranger in the Islamic law, he is a non mahram, I thought you know that. :)

That, and this too. They say if you did a mistake and you truly repented you shouldnt go and tell the person you married about it. Allah managed to cover it up for you so you need to keep it covered. Telling the future spouse will creat a place of doubt in the heart of the two and that goes against the fact that marraige is about sakina. There is a verse in the Quran that says that "al zani la yanka7 ila zaniya aw mushrika"

But won't the husband find out she's not a virgin on their wedding night, so if she doesn't tell him before he could divorce her and that's even worse cze the whole world will know about it.

In islam, you shouldnt judge virginty on the hymen. Thats culture. not all women bleed and not all women have thier hymen intact until they get married. It could break from a physical movemnet like horse riding and gymnastics.

^^ yeah its right

but in the case mentioned they talked about a girl who lost it with a man not with other kinda thing ...


I know some girls who lost it from accidents that i wont mention but
they told their husbands to bes
and they accepted it because they know from which family they come from and they trust them and lot them

hey maybe some men have small winkies and have winky problems and wouldn't like to be compared to other men. so they seek a woman who's never ever laid eyes on another man.
it could be a possibility. not saying it's the norm...

^^ LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO L!!

OMG HAHAHAHAHA NO WAY U JUST SAID THAT!

ahem well

if a man was thinking that way so hes a complete jerk

He will also overcompensate his "winkie" (OMG I LOVE that)....by getting a loud flashy car.

He will also overcompensate his "winkie" (OMG I LOVE that)....by getting a loud flashy car.
and talk in a patronising voice to everybody, putting them down at every chance, telling them 'what their place is'. wife included.

In islam, you shouldnt judge virginty on the hymen. Thats culture. not all women bleed and not all women have thier hymen intact until they get married. It could break from a physical movemnet like horse riding and gymnastics.

I know, but I think a guy would be able to tell if she had sex before even if she broke her hymen. I don't think that's the only thing that he would feel that is wrong? I can't explain more lol.

hey maybe some men have small winkies and have winky problems and wouldn't like to be compared to other men. so they seek a woman who's never ever laid eyes on another man.
it could be a possibility. not saying it's the norm...

In fact, I think that is the blessing of not being with anyone before .. you judge according to the experience you get.. the girl wouldnt compare the man with anyone else and vice versa .. it leads to more satisfying marraige (sexually)

s. I know, but I think a guy would be able to tell if she had sex before even if she broke her hymen. I don't think that's the only thing that he would feel that is wrong? I can't explain more lol.
I understand what you mean .. but he cant be sure .. and so he should ignore any doubt because if he doesnt have a proof a man shouldnt doubt if he doesnt have a proof.

arabian princess, i was making light of the whole situation. if a guy falls in love with a great girl who happened to be a non virgin, in my opinion, he should go for her regardless of her history.

^ I thought you were talking about why a man would go for a virgin .. and I think its a valid reason

^ I thought you were talking about why a man would go for a virgin .. and I think its a valid reason
yes, it can be a valid reason...but a man, sexually, or a woman, sexually, shouldn't be that insecure. there's a whole new world to discover with a man/woman you are crazy in love with, regardless of how many partners a person had before.

if you and your friend were hanging by an edge, and u would be able to save urself, but ur friend kept pulling you, would you:
- go down with him/her? or
- you would hit him/her and save urself??

either kil your friend or kill yourself with him...

this thread reminds of this situation, like giving 2 extreme cases, and there isnt a good option :)

I tend to agree with Amarant. I respect the girl who did the "other things" whether oral or whatever type of sex there is, more than the girl who went all the way down to having sex. The first girl was smart enough to think about her reputation and her future and she was able to hold back and fight temptation ... whereas the second girl chose to give in spread out her legs have sex LOL

Oh and I hate people who solely focus on the hymen issue. A hymen is just a hymen it does not determine how pure you are. So if you broke down the hymen it does not mean you're not "miss virgin" anymore. That's just plain stupid...as someone already pointed out, the hymen could break down due to some vigorous sport activities.

. I respect the girl who did the "other things" whether oral or whatever type of sex there is, more than the girl who went all the way down to having sex. The first girl was smart enough to think about her reputation and her future and she was able to hold back and fight temptation ....

What temptations ? She did almost everything except having sex. Is this fighting temptations ? :os

To me she didn't. A woman who does not kiss or go further is fighting temptation.......................................


..............and ditto for a man.

El Rey, what she meant is the temptation against going allllllllllll the way. At some point, she stopped :)

^ Yep exactly! she came back to her senses and repented! So she's definitely better than the other girl who decided to go all the way down and lose her virginity! There's just no comparison

^ Maybe she didn't get back to her senses or repened. Maybe she just didn't want to lose it before marriage and wanted to kee