What makes you believe that the religion (whatever it is) you are following is the right religion?

Are you too religious that you studied your religion very well and are confident about what you're following?

Or

Did you just follow what your parents did and decided to make sense of whatever they taught you?

What makes you so confident that your religion is on the right path?

I was baptized a Roman Catholic when I was less than five months old. My mom is catholic, dad doesn't believe in anything really. Anyway, I was raised Catholic and remained so through my adult life. I did have questions and was confused and wondered if I was on the right path. Even tried a non-demonminational church a few times but my heart always went back to my initial faith.

i was born into a Catholic faith, and i was allowed to explore other religions, and read their books. interacting with people from other faiths have made my adherence to my own stronger.

i was born a muslim, raised a muslim, and from what i read n taught, that would be my decision...

I am confident about it, because it is the truth. As God says in the Quran, the truth is clear and falsehood is clear. I am not a Muslim because I am merely following my family, I have studied my religion, I have my own relationship with God and I have studied the Quran from an academic perspective and to me, its perfection points out that it is truly a miracle from God. :D

Did you know that the currect practices of the Prisoners of War that we have in the West (Geneva Convention) has its roots in the Qur'an? Or that many of the legal concepts that are spread in the Western legal systems actually have Quranic roots? :D

Study history, and study how much Islam has influenced Western civilization, then you'll realise that that the Quran has truly taught mankind that which it did not know.

I am born a muslim, studied and still studying religion until I realized that being a believer is much more important that just being a muslim

Good question.

I was born Muslim. Raised up by a Muslim parents and in a Muslim community. I was taught about Islam since day one in school. I grew up, and it all made sense to me and I was convinced that Islam is the right religion for me. Though, if one of my parents was non-Muslim, and if I was raised in a non-Muslim country, and if I was not taught about Islam from an early age, would I still have chosen Islam as the right religion for me? I don't know.

Nevertheless, I'm happy that I was raised in a Muslim environment and I am also happy that I am convinced that Islam is the right religion for me.

I was raised by two non-religious parents in no religion at all.

I am an adult convert to Catholicism and I am a Catholic because I believe it to be true.

But one of the things I love about Sabla is talking to people from another religion who DON'T believe mine is true. It's a really good experience because it tests my belief and my honesty. If you feel strong in your faith and you are willing to be respectful of others and to put up with people who range from aggressive to sweet, I would really recommend you to try the same thing in reverse if you can find a place to do it! :)

My feeling here is that I have learned a lot about Islam and I respect it and Muslims even more than I did before I started. Muslims often have a great and distinctive beauty of soul that I greatly admire.

But everything I see confirms my original judgment. I don't feel hostile to Muslims at all; I feel they are my beautiful brothers and sisters. But my Catholic faith is strengthened daily by my encounter with Islam. I leave here so often with a heart full of gratitude to God both for my own Faith and for my wonderful Muslim friends.

Amjad, you've got double posts here lol !

It was interesting reading those few replies in such a short time.. can't wait for the rest!

I can say I was born nothing and still am. My mother although raised Presbyterian, now and probably since my birth is irreligious. My father was raised Christian, left it, became Christian (actually attended a Messianic Synagogue) again when I was about 12, then when I was about 16 something clicked and decided to become an Orthodox Jew - possibly fueled by the fact that his mothers family, were Jewish, although not practicing.

My preference is Judaism. But I stick to the Noahide Laws.

I will have to look up Noahide laws. Never heard of it.

Love reading all this btw.

I chose nothing…

I was born to Muslim Ibadhi parents…

A fact that I try to keep in mind when I look at others’ beliefs and when others look at mine…

Fortunately, almost all beliefs agree on their coded of ethics that also agree with the common sense. As for the shady regions, I stick to my belief as long as there is a practical reasoning. If there is no logical reasoning, I would find it hard to take it and I would doubt the given reasons.
Sometimes I feel I am making the image clear, but I also think others may think I am customizing my religion to make it perfect based on my own reasoning.

After all, I like Islam and I believe it is the right religion, if not Islam, I would be an atheist; I just don’t think I would find a religion that gives better answers and have a more understandable theology than Islam.

I will have to look up Noahide laws. Never heard of it.

Love reading all this btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

I converted to Pastafarianism when I was touched by His noodly appendage.

I was raised to/studied what is making sense.

Sometimes believing by nature is better and safer than digging things that may take you to nowhere…

I remember a nice story about Imam Razi, a well-known scholar in his time…

He was walking surrounded by tens of his students and passed by an old woman sitting by her doorstep, she asked one of his pupils “son…who is the man you and your peers are following?”
“don’t you know who he is?...This is Al-Imam Al-Razi” The young man answered surprised by the old woman’s ignorance.
“And who is this imam Razi?” The old woman asked.
“How come you don’t know him? He is the scholar who came up with a hindred proofs on the existence of God.”

The woman disdainfully replied “Son….go follow this man if you like, if he didn’t have a hundred doubts, he wouldn’t come up with a hundred of proofs.”

Imam Al-Razi who was listening to the whole conversation smiled and prayed “My lord…I ask you for a belief in you similar to the belief of old women.” :)

Pygamlion, I see where you're coming from, but I take this course,

And do not follow (blindly) any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception, you must verify it for yourself). In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning. [17:36]

The Qur'an repeatedly denounces blind faith. I understand how some people don't want to rationally research their religion, for fear that they might renounce their faith, but I think that Islam/the Qur'an is the truth, and that their belief in Islam would simply be re-inforced if their religion was studied.

Sometimes believing by nature is better and safer than digging things that may take you to nowhere…

I remember a nice story about Imam Razi, a well-known scholar in his time…

He was walking surrounded by tens of his students and passed by an old woman sitting by her doorstep, she asked one of his pupils “son…who is the man you and your peers are following?”
“don’t you know who he is?...This is Al-Imam Al-Razi” The young man answered surprised by the old woman’s ignorance.
“And who is this imam Razi?” The old woman asked.
“How come you don’t know him? He is the scholar who came up with a hindred proofs on the existence of God.”

The woman disdainfully replied “Son….go follow this man if you like, if he didn’t have a hundred doubts, he wouldn’t come up with a hundred of proofs.”

Imam Al-Razi who was listening to the whole conversation smiled and prayed “My lord…I ask you for a belief in you similar to the belief of old women.” :)

:) Ameen!

This reminds of me of a saying of Our Lord in the Gospel According to Luke:

People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Two things that seem to be opposite are both true, I find.

We Muslims and Christians are very far away from each other. But we are also very, very close! :p

Just when you think the differences are unbridgeable, you find something on a deep level that shows a strong connection...

Pygamlion, I see where you're coming from, but I take this course,

And do not follow (blindly) any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception, you must verify it for yourself). In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning. [17:36]

The Qur'an repeatedly denounces blind faith. I understand how some people don't want to rationally research their religion, but I think that Islam/the Qur'an is the truth, that thier belief would simply be re-inforced if their religion was studied.

I agree with that idea.

It's interesting because I agree with you 100% about believing because it is the Truth.

That's why I think we need to respect people's religions...if we mess with them without being careful, they might not find what we believe to be Truth. Instead, they might just find general doubt and skepticism.

Give me a Muslim who believes in One God and judgment and following God's law over an atheist or skeptic.

The trouble is that two people who both seem honest can study the same things and come to different conclusions.

I love to read the things that convince you about Islam...they shed a light into the Islamic soul for me and I can understand the hearts and minds of Muslims better.

But they never convince me at all, mind or heart.

And I suspect that the things that convince me have the same effect on you! :)

Jeff, I understand what you mean.

Pygmalian, the universities founded in Oxford and Paris based their curriculum on the radical ideas that were eminating from Islamic spain. They embody a new spirit of rational inquiry where a blind faith in God is challenged. Adelaide Bath admits this debt to the Muslims in pursuing this line of inquiry:

"From the Arabs I have learnt one thing - to lead by reason. I will detract nothing from God, but very carefully listen to the limits of human knowledge, only when this utterly breaks down should we refer things to God". (From the channel 4 documentary, When the Moors ruled in Europe)

Blind faith has never been part of our tradition, that's why the Qur'an transformed the nomadic, barbaric Arabs of the days of Ignorance into enlightened and civilised people that resulted in the Islamic Renaissance and the Islamic Golden age, where rationality and knowledge was emphasized. All this had a radical influence on Western civilization as we know today.

It's like asking, 'How can you be so sure you're human?'
The answer is, 'I just am'. I feel good being human the same way that I feel good being Muslim.

That is all.

The truth is every child is born with the fitrah (believe in the true faith of Islam) then his parents turn him to be jewish, chiristian, etc. As the hadith states.

I was born and raised in an extremely religious Catholic famiily and spent most of my childhood/ youth trying to make sense of it all. Somethings just didnt "click" didnt seem right to me and so when I went to univ I started exploring other religions - still no answer. Finally I found Islam and all the answers I needed.

I think sometimes when we're raised in a certain religion there are things we dont see, dont know about our faith. I personally would encourage my kids and anyone else for that matter, to mix with and learn about other faiths. I think knowledge is empowerment and once you know whats out there it can only strengthen your faith in Islam. The trick is to actually talk to ppl who understand and are knowledgeable of their religion.

I was raised by a Muslim Religious parents, in my youth hood I started to read more about other religion and tried to know more details beside what I was studying at school and from my parent. I came to a conclusion that I am satisfied with what I believe in.

But still I have long way to study and learn about my Islam and other religions

I remember when I was 4 years old, I used to look at small purple insects with many legs that lived in soggy sands under dead leaves, I thought it was god, in fact I questioned myself if god could be the smallest thing not the greatest thing in the universe who controlled everything, my cousin got mad and said "Allah is in the sky, don't say that Haram", whenever I remember this moment, I laugh and smile at my silly childish questions about life.

+Salam

I was raised by a Muslim Religious parents, in my youth hood I started to read more about other religion and tried to know more details beside what I was studying at school and from my parent. I came to a conclusion that I am satisfied with what I believe in.

But still I have long way to study and learn about my Islam and other religions

This is so beautiful in its modesty! :)

The truth is every child is born with the fitrah (believe in the true faith of Islam) then his parents turn him to be jewish, chiristian, etc. As the hadith states.

Sorry ice tea...that I don't believe in. But you have your right to believe it and Christans and Jews have a right to believe as they do. That particular truth you describe cannot be forced upon my own soul. Sorry.

The truth is every child is born with the fitrah (believe in the true faith of Islam) then his parents turn him to be jewish, chiristian, etc. As the hadith states.

Just what I wanted to say.

I am a practicing muslim. If I only beleived in Islam because I was raised to be muslim, I wouldnt have practiced the way I am.


Blind faith has never been part of our tradition, that's why the Qur'an transformed the nomadic, barbaric Arabs of the days of Ignorance into enlightened and civilised people that resulted in the Islamic Renaissance and the Islamic Golden age, where rationality and knowledge was emphasized. All this had a radical influence on Western civilization as we know today.

I dont think blind faith means that we follow without reason. I think blind faith is for those who just follow because they are supposed to not because they want to. The story pygmalion mentioned just tells the story of a woman who have faith in her heart for serveral reasons, starting from Fitra (instinct) to knowing that all the world around her cant be made without a creator.

لولا المربي .. ما عرفت ربي

If it wasn't for the person who raised me, I wouldn't have known god.

Sorry ice tea...that I don't believe in. But you have your right to believe it and Christans and Jews have a right to believe as they do. That particular truth you describe cannot be forced upon my own soul. Sorry.

I thought all religions believe that we are born believing in God? :rolleyes:All humans have a need to believe in a greater power/ being aka God(s). Our parents, our society influence which name we call Him and how we praise Him or even if we choose not to believe, but we were all created with the need to know...
Psychologists have even done studies which have shown that part of the healing process for ppl who are suffering from loss, grief or even depression is to introduce the concept of "God" I dont think it really matters what you want to call him, I believe all humans are born with this need. A "space" within us that needs to be filled by Gods love and His word. It what makes us feel complete. Perhaps thats why so many ppl out there in the big bad world feel "lost" like they are searching for something....... trying to fill the space God created us with?

(believe in the true faith of Islam) then his parents turn him to be jewish, chiristian, etc.

Yes but when he quotes it as being the true Islamic way that rubs me the wrong way...it would be like me saying all Muslims are born in the true Christian way until their parents have them raised in a different faith. I cannot believe he would provide that info here. This thread isn't about trying to make other religions look bad and dear Ice is doing that by saying we Christians and Jews are being led down the wrong path. I have to speak up.

I think Muslims who speak about the meaning of being born Muslim generally admit that it is in the sense that hijabi means:

That we are all born knowing and understanding that there is one God.

Certainly they don't mean that babies are born knowing the Quran and that Mohammed is a prophet.

In the first sense, of course, we Christians would agree with them. But then, in that sense of the word, we would say that we are the true Muslims.

I think it is the way he said it that we are then turned into being Christians and Jews. That part seemed a little one sided to me. True we are born in the essence of God and we believe in original sin...I don't think Muslims do but someone can correct me if I am wrong. So we can say...even babies borned to Muslim parents are born in original sin and take it from there.

The point of this thread is to get those members here to discuss why they became what they are and because of Ice Tea's history of Christian persecution..sorry Ice but to me that is how I look at it....his comment was laden with deep meaning and I as a Christian have to give my two cents.

Good for you! :p

I think the thread is interesting because there are so many different ways that people can end up becoming deeply attached to their faiths and convinced they are true....

Some people by intellect, some by the heart, some never doubt, others doubt and are pulled back...

Yes but when he quotes it as being the true Islamic way that rubs me the wrong way...it would be like me saying all Muslims are born in the true Christian way until their parents have them raised in a different faith. I cannot believe he would provide that info here. This thread isn't about trying to make other religions look bad and dear Ice is doing that by saying we Christians and Jews are being led down the wrong path. I have to speak up.

I hope this will help you to understand:

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No baby is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Islam is the religion of all Prophets, Adam to Muhammad. Children are not born out of any sin, original, inherited or derived. They are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam.

RECOGNITION OF ALLAH

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.

In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'

Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".

If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.

The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).
So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion. (By Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips )

My faith has always been by heart. Even when I was a little girl (i.e. before the age of five because I have memories before then)...I always felt the presence of God...cannot explain it. My grasp of God was that of peace of a heavenly Father and I remember attending church with a friend of mine in the neighborhood when I was a preteen. Dad was not religious and well mom was and still is a very very devout Catholic but she did not know how to drive and once I told her about St. Phillips the whole family began to attend Mass once again.

She read to us the bible...I had my own children's bible and this is something we always did together. I even read the bible front to back once as a teen....I don't go around preaching my Catholic ways...I just try to live it as best as I can....so when someone tells me that the way I am living my life is wrong...of course I am going to feel hurt but I honestly feel in my soul I am on the right path...that what Jesus taught (uncorrupted) is how we should live...

Born Muslim ..

But at the age of 10 .. realized that having Sects in Islam and following one sect isn't the right thing! My parents are Aba'9i ..
So at 17 .. when I had a better personality as I grow up .. I no longer became Full Aba'9i and started to tell my parents that I am not full Aba'9i .. they were pissed .. started giving me advice .. but at the end they accepted .. and they all know now that I am not full Aba'9i like the rest of the family ..

My faith has always been by heart. Even when I was a little girl (i.e. before the age of five because I have memories before then)...I always felt the presence of God...cannot explain it. My grasp of God was that of peace of a heavenly Father and I remember attending church with a friend of mine in the neighborhood when I was a preteen. Dad was not religious and well mom was and still is a very very devout Catholic but she did not know how to drive and once I told her about St. Phillips the whole family began to attend Mass once again.

She read to us the bible...I had my own children's bible and this is something we always did together. I even read the bible front to back once as a teen....I don't go around preaching my Catholic ways...I just try to live it as best as I can....so when someone tells me that the way I am living my life is wrong...of course I am going to feel hurt but I honestly feel in my soul I am on the right path...that what Jesus taught (uncorrupted) is how we should live...


I know exactly what you mean. God is there; the whole world is filled with His Glory and you can just feel it. It almost buzzes in the air!

To me, God's existence is almost the most obvious thing in the world.

Yes, sister, you are on the right path! And I am proud to walk it with you. :)

Define full Abadhi.

True Jeff and it IS a feeling (in your heart and deep within your soul)...doesn't have to be some kind of supernatural revalation...but a sense of peace...just hard to explain in human words for they cannot ever describe the Glory and essence of God....

;1060508']Born Muslim ..

But at the age of 10 .. realized that having Sects in Islam and following one sect isn't the right thing! My parents are Aba'9i ..
So at 17 .. when I had a better personality as I grow up .. I no longer became Full Aba'9i and started to tell my parents that I am not full Aba'9i .. they were pissed .. started giving me advice .. but at the end they accepted .. and they all know now that I am not full Aba'9i like the rest of the family ..

I think this thing that young Muslims have where many do not identify with a sect is very interesting, one of the most interesting Islamic developments in modern times. Along with the phenomenon of folks like Sheikh Hamza and so many of his attitudes...

*sigh* Jeff thanks you got what I meant. Actually we need to take care translating and interpreting things - Islam here means to submit to God so technically it means that we are all born knowing God and with the need to submit to him. OUr parents teach us how,where, why...... This is true whether we are christian, jew muslim hindu whatever..... The NEED to submit is there. If you wanna call it original sin then go ahead its pretty much the same concept -

*sigh* Jeff thanks you got what I meant. Actually we need to take care translating and interpreting things - Islam here means to submit to God so technically it means that we are all born knowing God and with the need to submit to him. OUr parents teach us how,where, why...... This is true whether we are christian, jew muslim hindu whatever..... The NEED to submit is there. If you wanna call it original sin then go ahead its pretty much the same concept -

You are welcome! :)

It always helps in a conversation not to try to trap people with words but to really understand what they are talking about.

When somebody says to me, "Jeff, you got what I was saying!" I always consider it a victory for both of us!

We can't have perfect unity. But let's have whatever unity we can have...

I like the way hijabi explains it....makes more sense to me and I do thank her for taking the time to do so.

Define full Abadhi.

A Muslim who says I am Abadhi ..
Me .. I am not Abadhi ..

I dont think blind faith means that we follow without reason. I think blind faith is for those who just follow because they are supposed to not because they want to. The story pygmalion mentioned just tells the story of a woman who have faith in her heart for serveral reasons, starting from Fitra (instinct) to knowing that all the world around her cant be made without a creator.


Of course, you're right. I just meant that even though we know by Fitra and our hearts that there is one God, if one also studies our religion from a logical and rational point of view it would point to the same thing, it would not change what we already know by fitra.

I think this thing that young Muslims have where many do not identify with a sect is very interesting, one of the most interesting Islamic developments in modern times. Along with the phenomenon of folks like Sheikh Hamza and so many of his attitudes...

Actually originally there were NO sects, the sects are a new development. People are just returning to the old ways. Im sure youve seen a similar movement in the Church? Returning to the original teachings?

Marianna, I deeply and sincerely apologise for some ppls judgemental attitude. :no: That feeling youre talking about, that certainty that God is there, the need to be close him is what the hadeeth is referring to. It also does not imply that being Christian or Jew is on the wrong path. It means that our parents/ society influence our beliefs. As most of the posts have shown our families or society do affect which religion we choose to a degree. doesnt make either one right or wrong. Just different ways of obeying Him, praising Him but the morals, needs, faith is the same. :)

That is how I believe and so happy to see someone does also. Sigh....just makes me happy. Corny I know but it does.

I was born as a Muslim , raised as such but I always wished to have the time to read about it more, then I asked myself, whats the perfect religion?

Which has the Truth , Logic , compatible with science, Brought to all human societies (works for all & any time) , Gives hope , No contradictions , Practical , Midway : not tough & not loose , Fair & Gives Justice to all , Pure, Full of Morality , Complete & Of all these, It answers My questions which I need to live my life in the correct path.

So I started reading very late..after my graduation from university..The deeper I go , The more I realise that I havent reached any where closer to fulfill my religion, the more I know that Islam is the perfect religion that can beat all others. It speaks to my mind , my heart & my soul..each time I read the wholy book ,I find new answers.

The most frequent question I ask myself is why were we created? (وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ )
And I (Allâh) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone).

We are here temprarly, what we do & for what is a question that all of us should answer on the day of resurrection. No one will take my sins/ rewards , & I wont take anyone else's sin/ rewards,,,each has his/her own.

So ask yourself why am I created & let the answer guide you to whats perfect.

When I go to a mosque, I usually pray as the imam does, if he prays like Ibathi then I will do so, if he prays like Sunnah, I will do so too, and this what we should do so to have a sense of unity as one united group praying the same way. And also, isn't the imam playing the role of the representative of the worshipers in front of God when he leads them in the prayer.

I did choose to be who I am today, also the environment I am living in influences me slowly to behave, think, problem-solve, and react to any life issue. It's a sociological matter for many people, and a religious one to others.

+Salam

If you want my honesty, I am not sure I would have been a Muslim if I was not born one. I admire people who later on their life "choose" to be Muslims affirmatively. I am a Muslim because I was born one, raised as one, it makes sense to me and it is a work of a creator who can't be a human. That is what makes me a believer. However, I have never studied other religions and compared it to mine. So I am not as confident as people such as hijabi and Sophis are (Mash Allah :)). Educating myself in this field is something I really need to do to strengthen my faith. It is not about blind faith with me, I ask and I look for reasons if something seems off, but the essential bit is that I never studied other religions. That is what is lacking.

I was born a Muslim and studied the religion in School. Like Lym I'm not sure if I would have been a Muslim if I wasn't born one. However I do believe that Islam is the right path and that everything makes sense through it.

I found some verses that tell us that Islam is a faith based on reason, and not blind faith.

…We explain our signs clearly for those who reason.” [Quran 30:28]

“They will say: If only we had listened or used reason, we would not have ended up as inmates in the burning fire.” [Quran 67:10]

“Be not as those who say, "We hear," but listen not. Verily, the vilest of all creatures in the sight of God are those deaf, those dumb ones who do not use their reason.” [Quran 8:21-22]

“We have made the revelations clear to you, if you will use your reason.” [Quran 3:118]

It should come of no surprise that Averroes (Ibn Rushd), the Arab-Muslim scholar, was the founding father of secular thought in Western Europe! :cute:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes#cite_note-17

The great Italian theologian Thomas Aquinas used the writings of the great Islamic thinker, Averroes, to justify the clear separation of faith and reason. A muslim ideal that formed the bases of all scientific inquiry and lead to the European Renaissance. It was the Islamic civilization who sowed the seeds of Renaissance 600 years before the appearance of Leonardo Divinci. :)

BTW, the idea of having a hospital came from the Muslims. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZhuLWyNFc&feature=related

I did not choose and I was not forced; as there is no other convincing options!

Two major things to thank Allah for:

1. Born muslim.

2. Born Omani i.e. from Oman.

Sophis:

Um, uhhhh, well, there's some truth in all that...

But...

Hospitals were up and running in ancient Rome: public medicine in a public place staffed and paid for by doctors was called an "Aesculepium":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_community_of_ancient_Rome

"Hospital" comes from the "hotel Dieu", which means "God's Inn". There were hospitals, which included treatment of the sick in late classical and early medieval Europe and continuing on into the Dark and Early Middle Ages in Western Europe, where invasions from Norsemen and other...uhhhh...outsiders made that possible. They were usually associated with monasteries which also ran schools for the local populations:

Not until later where most hospitals multi-functional, though the first Spanish hospital, founded by the Catholic Visigoth bishop Masona in 580 at Mérida, was a xenodochium designed as an inn for travellers (mostly pilgrims to the shrine of Eulalia of Mérida) as well as a hospital for citizens and local farmers. The hospital's endowment consisted of farms to feed its patients and guests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_medicine

That's before Mohammed, you know.

No question that Averroes was a genius and contributed in a major way to Western Christian philosophy. But there are two things to point out:

1. His work was based on the work of Greek philosphers like Aristotle, whom he translated, and Greek doctors like Galen. That's no dis to Averroes. But it does point out that he was the continuation of a great heritage of pagan sources of philosophy which had been copied and commented on and handed down by the Byzantine Greeks. So Averroes is the conduit from pagans through Eastern Christians and then back to the Western Christians, whose knowledge of the classic texts was much diminished.

2. The distinction between faith and reason was not at all unknown to Christian philosophers in the West! :p My reading group just finished reading St. Augustine's City of God, which was written by the great Latin Doctor of the Church and philosopher shortly after the year 410--long before Mohammed.

Augustine makes clear the distinction between faith and reason and compares them to the two parts of scissors, both of which are needed for both religion and secular enterprise. Faith is involved even in reasoning, the basis of reasoning is TRUST in either observations or in facts as passed on by trustworthy authority. His formulation of this is famous: credo ut intelligam; I believe in order to understand.

I am the last person to minimize the importance of Averroes, Avicenna and the other Muslim geniuses who contributed so much to our civilization. But the proper way to look at all this is to marvel at what we all contributed to each other, rather than being parochial about it.

I was just writing down what was mentioned in the documentary that I had posted, they were not my claims. About Averroes, yes, it was through the Latin translations that the legacy of Aristotle became more widely known in the medieval West, however the Muslims had grasped upon this knowledge, learnt it, assimilated and added their own material, even if it may contradict their faith. The point being that Averroes had reconciled reason and faith, philosophy and religion, which was then the stepping stone for the Renaissance.

It's not a matter of the Christians knowing in the year 410 that there is such a distinction, but rather did they practice it? As far as I know, Europe was in the dark ages, until several centuries later. However,

"Averroes was great because of the tremendous stir he made in the minds of men for centuries. A history of Averroism would include up to the end of the sixteenth-century, a period of four centuries which would perhaps deserve as much as any other to be called the Middle Ages, for it was the real transition between ancient and modern methods."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes



I am the last person to minimize the importance of Averroes, Avicenna and the other Muslim geniuses who contributed so much to our civilization. But the proper way to look at all this is to marvel at what we all contributed to each other, rather than being parochial about it.

Yes, I agree with you. This is exactly what I wanted to pointed out in my other post, that rather than seeing the West as being the exclusive contributor of ideas to the East in modern times, the East had also contributed much to the West and shaped its identity. In a nutshell, the ideas we have today are not the exclusive product of any culture, but rather are of mixed heritage. :D

Amen to the last thing especially. We should all be willing and able to recognize the contributions of each other's cultures to our own religious and philosophical traditions!

Yes, certainly the distinction between faith and reason was active throughout the Dark Ages, especially in the Carolingian Renaissance of the 9th century. The basis for education was on the one hand religious, but on the other hand consisted of two secular branches as well: the Trivium and the Quadrivium.

The Trivium combined linguistic analysis with philosophy and included grammar, rhetoric and most importantly formal logic.

The Quadrivium consisted of arithmetic, geometry, the study of the physical and mathematical aspects of music, and astronomy.

The distinction between faith and reason was quite clear and theology played no part in these disciplines.

The monasteries were involved in the development of agriculture too and the preservation and development of medicine. In many places, they ran schools for the local populace.

And philosophy was studied, especially Augustine and Boethius and the Neoplatonic philosophers.

The problem with the Dark Ages was not intellectual backwardness. The problem was INVASIONS from the north, the east, and from the south. First, Germanic invasions, then the Huns, then the Vikings and then what people called the Saracens (i.e, you guys! ;) ).

When things were roughest, it was preservation that was emphasized of course. Gut whenever there was a patch of peace, things took off.

But although this is interesting, I think it's tangential to the point of the thread. My only point was that there is lots and lots for Catholics to be proud of in intellectual history--even apart from the wonderful contributions of Averroes and other Muslim scientists and philosophers...

I think at the age of 13/14 I started thinking of WHY I was a Muslim.

When I go to a mosque, I usually pray as the imam does, if he prays like Ibathi then I will do so, if he prays like Sunnah, I will do so too, and this what we should do so to have a sense of unity as one united group praying the same way.

nezitiC's approach reminds me of a story. Before there were arguments even between the sunni sects. Malikis, Shafi'is, Hanafis and Hanbalis cursed each other. It wasn't because of the imams, the imams were friends and loved each other, the problem was just with those who followed the teachings, like it is today.

Anyway, the story! I'm sure about the characters but I'm not sure who died first.

One of the imams, I think Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal passed away. Imam Al Shafi'i came to the funeral to pray Salat Al Janaaza. When he prayed, he prayed like Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal taught in his teachings. When they asked him why he did that, he said: How could I differ with my brother while I am by his grave!

^^

I like that story! :)

****

Unrelated to UmK's post, but I remember this related thread started by Fatamooo the Great in days of yore when she was still a presence in the Land of Sabla:

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41132

I’m a Muslim and I thank Allah for making me be one.

I was raised to be a Muslim, but I was very interested in Christianity, so I decided to study it. I did a little study while I was in Oman then I traveled to the U.S, encountered a lot of Christians, visited a lot of churches and talked to many Christian preachers. I even attended six lectures in the church that were preached against Islam. They were made for missionaries that go preach Christianity in the Middle East. These lectures made me furious. There was no truth in them and the kind of accusations preached were really nasty and stupid.

I bought the Christian bible and have been studying it for a while. I have also attended many debates and panel discussions between some churches and mosques. The last debate was hold last month. Three Christians converted after that debate. I’m trying to learn more about Islam and Christianity and I wish that one day I’ll be among these people who lead the debates and show the straight path for Christians and others.

Peace

Yes i choose. Not to follow anything.

^ Aren't you so relaxed? Honestly, I envy you..

^^

Is that a good sign? :p

I like Nico; he's a really sweet guy.

But...nothing seems to me to be nothing.

I've been there and done that. Nothing is nothing like you think it might be. I found it to be quite something! :p

I can proudly say : Yes!

I was born a Muslim and am getting more convinced in Islam day-by-day.

I'm a Muslim and I chosed to be one because I believe and feel thats its true and logical.
It wasnt a choice once I was born but became my choice once I became an adult and had the ability to control my brain.

I've Converted To EVERY Religion (Just In Case) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8&feature=user)

I just chose to be a good person

Being a good person is not an answer for the question.


I thank God am born Muslim, I consider it a bless and gift from God.

Nico: Don't you believe in God ?
If No, then who do you think created you ?
If yest, How do you worship Him ?

Sorry am just curious

My mum and my dad created me :XD:

Being a good person is not an answer for the question

A person is born neutral & the parents make his faith/belief, person makes the choice when grown up.

My answer perfectly fits E.W's question, I was brought up a muslim; but I chose not to follow a certain religion/faith. Just like braikz said, a believer. All the shmuckles about being 'proud' to be a muslim/christian/jew/etc. is just worthless

My mum and my dad created me :XD:

Lol une reponse bebete :D

And who created them ? Agh am serious. And don't you believe in the life after this life and judgement day ? Cos I really don't grasp the idea people don't believe in this.

A person is born neutral & the parents make his faith/belief, person makes the choice when grown up.

My answer perfectly fits E.W's question, I was brought up a muslim; but I chose not to follow a certain religion/faith. Just like braikz saif, a believer. All the shmuckles about being 'proud' to be a muslim/christian/jew/etc. is just worthless

If you don't follow the main Islamic pillars ( praying, fasting Ramadhan, ... )then you are not a muslim. So you are without a religion ?

If you don't follow the main Islamic pillars ( praying, fasting Ramadhan, ... )then you are not a muslim. So you are without a religion ?

:cute:

I do not follow a certain religion; but I am a believer. Go figure

You know, the thing is I only believe in what I see .. so talking about this is just non sense to me (no offence). I don't believe in God, but I respect those who believe in it. I don't think there is anything after death. I don't believe that God created the first Human being or mother nature or whatever. Furthermore I don't care about all this, I have a life to live and I don't have time to stop on this kind of thing. Life is short, I have to enjoy it to its maximum. I know, I could enjoy it even with a religion, but I simply don't want to bother myself about this. At the same time I like to understand why some people choose to follow this religion or another.. Everyone has the choice. I've been baptised, so officially I'm a Christian. But that's just blah blah to me (once again, no offence!), If you ask me, I'll tell you that I'm an atheist (no need to red rep me ;)).
And whenever I question myself about those questions.. I just feel like those people (believers) hide behind their religion, they feel safe there.. Weird thoughts eh ? lol


Btw 'bébête' is very insulting in French :rolleyes: lol

Oh and, as Spirit said, their is absolutely nothing to be proud of. You do it for yourself not to show off.

:cute:

I do not follow a certain religion; but I am a believer. Go figure

Why are you afraid to answer ? It's a Yes or No. I see you're still skiptical about what your following. Anyway, I was just asking you that's all and you do what you feel is right. :)

You know, the thing is I only believe in what I see .. so talking about this is just non sense to me (no offence). I don't believe in God, but I respect those who believe in it. I don't think there is anything after death. I don't believe that God created the first Human being or mother nature or whatever. Furthermore I don't care about all this, I have a life to live and I don't have time to stop on this kind of thing. Life is short, I have to enjoy it to its maximum. I know, I could enjoy it even with a religion, but I simply don't want to bother myself about this. At the same time I like to understand why some people choose to follow this religion or another.. Everyone has the choice. I've been baptised, so officially I'm a Christian. But that's just blah blah to me (once again, no offence!), If you ask me, I'll tell you that I'm an atheist (no need to red rep me ;)).
And whenever I question myself about those questions.. I just feel like those people (believers) hide behind their religion, they feel safe there.. Weird thoughts eh ? lol


Btw 'bébête' is very insulting in French :rolleyes: lol

Lol not insulting when it meant to be as a joke, is't ? :think:
Anyway Nico. CHILL :p . And thanks for the honest answers I really appreciate it. Pardon me my insolent curiousity :)

Lol, don't worry :p i'm just telling you in case you wanna say it to a french person s/he might get made at u ^^
I couldnt be more honest lol .. and curiosity is never insolent :)

Why are you afraid to answer ? It's a Yes or No. I see you're still skiptical about what your following. Anyway, I was just asking you that's all and you do what you feel is right. :)

My answer was clear as crystal

Islam isn't the only belief in this world & nor it's THE belief

Just a reminder of the Topic:
Did you choose being Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Catholic/...?
Not
Pick on those who chose being Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Catholic

Enjoy! :)

Just a reminder of the Topic:
Did you choose being Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Catholic/...?
Not
Pick on those who chose being Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Catholic

Enjoy! :)

I guess that's what spirit is saying:

He's chosen to be "Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Catholic/...?"

I think he fits the thread better than anybody else! :)

-born muslim
-raised as a muslim
-muslim parents
- and i have read about other religions here and there
and still till now study my religion and I thank god everyday for being a muslim :)


I just feel lucky

I guess that's what spirit is saying:

He's chosen to be "Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Catholic/...?"

I think he fits the thread better than anybody else! :)


So? why are you quoting me and then defending Spirit like what I said was against him?
:rolleyes:

So? why are you quoting me and then defending Spirit like what I said was against him?
:rolleyes:

I didn't mean it that way!

I just meant that spirit was sort of looking at the thread a different way.

Most people were choosing alternatives; spirit is combining them.

It's interesting and different...

...I just put it that way because it made me smile!

Sorry, mate. Didn't mean to be irritating.

lol, you're getting old Jeff :XD:

lol, you're getting old Jeff :XD:

What's that? My hearing's none too good these days...speak up! ;)

Sometimes I wonder, If I were born a christian, jewish or even a buthist will I embrace Islam ? Or I will stay on the same religion I was born to ? Will I say that Islam is faulse like some non muslims do ? Will I read about Islam or I'll be too lazy to learn about it or maybe too stubborn to think of it.

I really feel am blessed to be born muslim. Maybe God knew that I won't be a muslim unless am born one and then to give me the freedom to stay on it or leave it.

Am sure it's the same for others non muslims. I wonder if Jeff was born a muslim will he be a muslim sheikh ? or wudjab if he was born a muslim too, will he be so radical against christians ? :D . It's really complicated.

My answer was clear as crystal

Islam isn't the only belief in this world & nor it's THE belief

Islam is THE belief.

[3:19]Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam,
إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ

Above verse is clear as crystal.

IceTea............good for you :)