If Jesus is not responsible for our sins, why would God allow him to die.

No one saw Jesus die on the cross. Several Bibles and passages say he did not die:

Bible of Barnabas: "The face of Yehuda who led the soldiers to arrest Christ was transfigured into that of Christ who had been rescued by the Angels through the window to the third Heaven."
Also the Bibles of Basilidains, Docetae, The Marcionite Gospel.

Here brothers and sisters you have 4 chosen and recognized Bibles, also Luke 20:34-36, 24:36-41, Hebrew 5:7 and John 20:17 support Jesus was saved.

The Bible says that Jesus did not die on the cross, that his loving creator saved Jesus from the cross as confirmed in the Koran. God loves Jesus.


Would a compassionate, forgiving, merciful God allow his anointed Jesus to die??

* To say he was sacrificed for us, opposes the Bible's teachings (Hosea6:6) and (Matthew 9:13 and 12:7).

* To say he died on the cross, discredits his prophethood (Deuteronomy 13:5) and (21:22-23).

The Jews claimed they killed him to prove he was a false prophet which they still believe. The Koran is here to unite the Jews and Christians and to have them submit their will to God, to be Muslims.

Where is the information on sacrifice coming from?

Paul, who was a Jew and his belief in Jewish sacrifice was transported into Christianity as suggested by a renowned New Testament scholar V. Taylor "The Atonement in the New Testament Teaching." Paul developed the idea by sending letters to the Corinthians, the Romans 4:25, He told the Galatians 6:4., and Ephesians 5:2, read the history yourself. Christianity is the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.

Who are we to believe??

Jesus came to confirm the Torah, not to destroy it (Matthew 23:2-3).

While Paul abolished the teachings of the Torah (Acts 13:39).

What hour was Jesus crucified??
(Mark 15:25) It was the third hour, and they crucified him.

(John 19:14) It was the sixth hour, and he was not yet crucified


Who bore the cross??

(Matthew 27:32) The compelled Simon to bear the cross of Jesus./ also(Luke 23:26)& (Mark 15:21).

(John 19:17) Jesus was bearing his cross himself.


What did they put Jesus on??

(Mark 15:21) They put Jesus on the cross.

(Peter 2:24) They put Jesus on the tree./ also (Gal3:13)


What did they give Jesus to drink??

(Mark 15:23) They gave him wine mingled with myrrh to drink.

(Matthew 27:34) Thew gave him vinegar mingled with gall to drink.


What happened to Judas??

(Mat 27:5) Judas went and hanged himself.

(Acts 1:18) Judas fell headlong, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Many earlier sects of Christians believed that it was Judas who died in the place of Jesus, with the contradictions at hand, maybe those earlier Christians were right.



Who went to the grave of Jesus??

(John 20:1) Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

(Mat 28:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary.

(Luke 24:10) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Jo'an-na and some other women.

(Mark 16:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Sa-lo'-me.



Angel??

(John 20:12) One woman saw two angels at the grave of Jesus.

(Mat 28:2) Two women saw one angel.

(Luke 24:3) Three women saw two men.

(Mark 16:5) Three women saw one man.



Who was told??

(Luke 24:9) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary the Mother of James and Jo'an-na returned back from the grave and told the eleven apostles all of what they saw.

(Mark 16:8) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary and Sa-lo'-me returned
back from the grave, and did not tell anyone anything because
they were afraid.



During the time of the assumed crucifixion, as you see, was a time of confusion, because no one saw Jesus die. (Matthew 26:56)

But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might
fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled."

So the Qur'an says: 4:157
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, butonly conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:"

When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?

The sacrifice that has to be made to be forgiven for our sins is the sacrifice of our will to the Creator Allah, as confirmed in the Bible.

Not only do we rely on faith, but also action and reality all combined.We believe in the same God, you have been taught by the recipients of your hard earned 10% of your income tithing that the Koran is not the word of God, that is sad, because then you would learn as every chapter begins "God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful."

In Islam, only 3% of your income goes straight to the poor, such as a relative. None is required to go the Church or Mosque. 3% of the wheat in the world would feed all the starving.

source (http://jews-for-allah.org/Prophet-Jesus/did-Jesus-die-on-cross.htm)

Well presented article, now we should expect someone will comment on Barnabas only!

Well, if I write a long essay, few will read it.

But let me start by saying this:

One big problem with this article is that it ignores things that anyone who has read the Bible carefully would know.

Do you trust an author who hides things or is ignorant of things?

For example this:

And [Jesus] began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 8: 31.

All the Gospels have similar passages.

Jesus told His disciples before He died many times and in many ways what would happen.

For example this:

1
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber.
2
But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4
3 When he has driven out all his own, he walks ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they recognize his voice.
5
But they will not follow a stranger; they will run away from him, because they do not recognize the voice of strangers."
6
Although Jesus used this figure of speech, they did not realize what he was trying to tell them.
7
5 So Jesus said again, "Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8
6 All who came are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
9
I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.
10
A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.
11
[B]I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12
A hired man, who is not a shepherd and whose sheep are not his own, sees a wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away, and the wolf catches and scatters them.
13
This is because he works for pay and has no concern for the sheep.
14
I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.
16
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.
17
This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.
18
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father."

John 10.

So, I would begin by saying that the author of your article begins by making us not trust his knowledge or his judgment since he says nothing about these obvious facts.

Here is another example of the author getting something wrong that amounts to either terrible ignorance or dishonesty:

What did they put Jesus on??

(Mark 15:21) They put Jesus on the cross.

(Peter 2:24) They put Jesus on the tree./ also (Gal3:13)

A cross is wood and made of logs. In English, when we cut down a tree, we usually don't call it a tree anymore. But it's still a tree.

When we cut down a tree on purpose and chop it up, we usually call it a "log" or a "board". But when a tree falls in the forest and the trunk is lying there, we still call it a "tree".

A cross is just a tree, i. e, a log, with another log or board lashed to it for convenience in dealing with the arms. And in fact, crucifixions were sometimes carried out on living trees, using branches or a cross-piece.

But whether you crucify someone on a dead tree or a live tree, it's still a tree.

Jeff thanks for the enlightenment. Don't know if it is appreciated by some but nonetheless I do admire your wealth of knowledge here.

I have a question, is there any historical evidence of a man being crossed and sacrificed? a reliable evidence. I don't trust the bible for it's been written by many authors and each we don't know about much, and each wrote it in different times, which in modern times, such a book can't be published for the lack of authors informations and dates of its creation. I don't want to be offtopic, but Am I already! ?

+Salam

Actually the History Channel did a special right before Easter on Roman crucifixtion and it was around during Jesus' time.

So we are supposed to take advice from Jew who are no longer Jews but follow Allah !

Me like History channel, but sometime it's not really reliable and neutral. It's more like making History looks like fun to watch but into details, it's somehow ignoring other people achievements and facts in history. History channel rarely mentions the Islamic history in its programs. They only focus on Roman, Greek, American Civil wars, WWI, WWII, and oh yeah Hitler and his holocaust histories.

I watch the History channel allot and actually I have seen Islam mention quite a bit now and the Quran, esp. during the Easter celebration. I think because the majority of the population are Christian based (either practicing or non) they focus on that light but since Islam has been in the limelight the last few years I have seen it tied to the other 2 monothesitic religions when before Islam was never mentioned on the tele. I know growing up I never heard about Islam or learned of its existence until college when I took History of the Middle East and Politics of the Middle East and my eyes and ear and heart became more curious. A true scholar in some aspects, is open minded to always learning something different.

If you want to look up Roman crucifixtion there are always libraries or even online check it out.

Reconciling two different ways of telling a story from witnesses is something that almost always needs to be done in any court of law. People remember different details or emphasize the things that they themselves noticed.

And those who hear their stories tell them in different ways.

This is not a sign of falsehood. This is a sign of truth.

A witness to an accident says,

"I saw two men climb out of the car. I talked to one of the men and he told me that there was a third person dead in the car."

Person One reports this truthfully as, "The witness said she saw a man after the accident and talked to him."

Person Two reports this truthfully as, "The witness said she saw two men after the accident."

Person One is focussing on the man talked to. Person Two is focussing on the number of people present.

But both are right.

There are reconciliation problems in the Quran too. Are three or more angels talking to Mary as in Sura 3: 42 and 45?

Or is it just one, as in Sura 19: 17-18?

Well, it all depends on what you mean and your perspective.

From our point of view, the differing witness accounts are testimony PRECISELY to the fact that there are multiple witness accounts. If every Gospel gave precisely the same information in the same way, they would be less reliable.

And this makes us trust the Church and the Bible much more.

If the Church were really fiddling with the Bible, changing it around and corrupting it to suit its purposes, hiding things and changing others, surely it would have changed all these witness accounts to make them seem like they fit perfectly.

For example, it could have gathered all the different versions and made ONE VERSION. Then it could have ordered all the other versions burned, claiming that they were false.

Then it would could have said, "We have One Perfect Book with no variation!"

I have a question, is there any historical evidence of a man being crossed and sacrificed? a reliable evidence. I don't trust the bible for it's been written by many authors and each we don't know about much, and each wrote it in different times, which in modern times, such a book can't be published for the lack of authors informations and dates of its creation. I don't want to be offtopic, but Am I already! ?

+Salam

Do you mean is there any historical evidence of people being crucified at all?

I think that is what he means but I know that the Romans used this as a form of punishment even Alexander and he is well documented.

This was discussed on the History Channel program I watched during the Easter celebration:

Despite the fact that the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refer to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus which was discovered in Jerusalem. It is not surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archaeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular individual a customary burial.

The remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man’s name on it, 'Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol'. The ossuary contained a heel with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the heels may have been nailed to the sides of the tree (one on the left side, one on the right side, and not with both feet together in front). The nail had olive wood on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olive wood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that the condemned was crucified at eye level. Additionally, the piece of olive wood was located between the heel and the head of the nail, presumably to keep the condemned from freeing his foot by sliding it over the nail. His legs were found broken, perhaps as a means of hastening his death as described in John 19:31-32. It is thought that, since in Roman times iron was expensive, the nails were removed from the dead body to cut the costs, which would help to explain why only one has been found, as the back of the nail was bent in such a way that it couldn't be removed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

Well, just to prove a point, go to their website (http://www.history.com/search.do?searchText=Jew&targetDB=THC_TVLISTINGS_V2) for TV scheduling, and type in search "Islam" and "Roman" and see the difference.

+Salam

In all fairness I really don't see the point of why the History Channel would show more of Islam. In all fairness they can discuss it but you are talking about a channel that is primarily based with a Christian audience. Always good to learn about different populations and religions and you or anyone interested in Islam can write to them. Now, if there were shows in the ME that tailored more to Christians then I can see a balance in programming.

Dear young lady Mariana Enrique;

The topic is on Jesus pbuh, no more offtopic. However, there's another one called History 'International' channel, and the same thing goes in its programming. So please, let's the topic resumes as the river flows between its grooves.

yours sincerely,

[x]

+Salam.

That is fine I really don't care about programming but like I said people can always write and complain if they want more of something they are not seeing. The beauty of Western media.

nezitiC:

I don't know what you would regard as "evidence." Historians tend not to agree about evidence for ancient things.

Some historians even question whether Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed existed at all! So there is a wide variation of opinion. If you want to believe something about those men, you can probably find evidence that satisfies you.

Even secular historians and scholars of ancient texts who don't believe in Christianity and don't trust the Gospels to be completely accurate usually agree that they have a historical core. That's because they are a variety of sources testifying to some common basic facts that appear to preserve contemporaneous evidence.

One of the facts that most secular historians and scholars agree on is that Jesus was crucified and died.

Apart from the Gospels, there are some ancient Roman references to Jesus and His death. The two main ones are Tacitus:

Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 14-37 at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

and

Flavius Josephus

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous and many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not desert his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

So we are supposed to take advice from Jew who are no longer Jews but follow Allah

Got to love apostates :)

St.Helen, mother of Constantine the great, found the true cross of Jesus some 300 yrs after his crucifixion. buried on the golgotha were 3 crosses, as described by the gospels. the label put on the cross of Jesus with the inscription 'inri' (here is the king of Jews) lain in the same pit, along with the nails used for the crucifixions. the whole history is narrated in the diaries of the bishop who travelled with Helena Empress Augusta.

Yes... mini.... but..

Is there any EVIDENCE (other that the volumes and volumes of historical evidence that proves the fact) to prove what you say is corrrect /

Hmmmmm volumes and volumes youuuu sayyyyy??? DOUBT that would have an impact on some (whistling while twiddling her thumbs)........................................... ....

nezitiC your questions are valid, but finding answers to them from Christian scholars is impossible, as I have tried it before.

Well, if I write a long essay, few will read it.

But let me start by saying this:

One big problem with this article is that it ignores things that anyone who has read the Bible carefully would know.

Do you trust an author who hides things or is ignorant of things?

For example this:



Mark 8: 31.

All the Gospels have similar passages.

Jesus told His disciples before He died many times and in many ways what would happen.

For example this:



John 10.

So, I would begin by saying that the author of your article begins by making us not trust his knowledge or his judgment since he says nothing about these obvious facts.


Instead of concentrating on the author concentrate at what he had mentioned, it's all Bibles refrences and we can see many contradictions in the events that took place.

As far as Jesus told His disciples before He died many times and in many ways what would happen.

The author said:When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?