Ice Tea=Don't you think the church is controlling people personal life by such laws and restrictions thus it will drive people away from the church and convert to Islam?

This was taken from another post since my reply was deleted. I feel that religions are there to guide us. Just as Islam has rules for people to live their lives so does Christianity and since my post was deleted in the other one I am creating a new thread here.

We have rules all around us. Civil laws, rules of faith if you have one, rules at work and rules at home.

Chaos would reign if there were no rules that one lived by or was guided by.

True and decided to create a new post becase dear Ice Tea thinks that all the rules we have in Christinaty will make others convert. Fine, if people want to convert that is their personal choice but I don't like it when someone tells me that they will leave due to all these rules and think their relgion has none. I am rolling my eyes as I write this. :think:

True and decided to create a new post becase dear Ice Tea thinks that all the rules we have in Christinaty will make others convert. Fine, if people want to convert that is their personal choice but I don't like it when someone tells me that they will leave due to all these rules and think their relgion has none. I am rolling my eyes as I write this. :think:
imo, and with all due respect, I think Islam is the religion with MOST rules, hard, tough rules, sometimes rules that don't even make sense.. and some scholars only love to make them tougher, like people will be more pious if they make their lives more difficult. :rolleyes:


puh'lease.

I think he means the church laws not christianity. This is what it seems from the post. Anyway, rules are a must to guide and keep things under control. Islam has so many rules that people in this era found it impossible to live with and most of them don't follow these rules which don't make these rules wrong but the problem in the people. Reading the title of this thread I thought there are some specific rules to talk about and discuss. Everyone will agree with the importance of the rules, but what rules exactly, we can't just make it a general question ?

imo, and with all due respect, I think Islam is the religion with MOST rules, hard, tough rules, sometimes rules that don't even make sense.. and some scholars only love to make them tougher, like people will be more pious if they make their lives more difficult. :rolleyes:


puh'lease.

For example ?

Well, how about we do list rules in each religion and discuss them in a civilized context. The reason Ice Tea said Catholics (since the post was about divorce and Catholics) why they would leave and maybe convert to Islam is due to the rules around divorce. We can start with that one and go from there. :)

For example ?
For example eyebrow shaping.
For example how adultery is a sin, but muta'a is ok.
For example the whole deal with the left and right side of your body.

To me they seem stupid and senseless. To you they may not.

To each, his own. :)

For example eyebrow shaping.
For example how adultery is a sin, but muta'a is ok.
For example the whole deal with the left and right side of your body.

To me they seem stupid and senseless. To you they may not.

To each, his own. :)

Mut'a is not Ok in Islam. Only some shite sect believe in this is Ok. And about the rest of course they are stupid rules to you. You live in a society where drinking, adultery, mostly nude attire is OK. And I've already said that some Islamic rules seem impossible to live with but the problem is in the people not the rules ( People who think like you, no offense ) .

^^^ Thalia, Mut3a is forbidden for the majority of Muslims, which is like 90%. I don't think it is exactly fair to take something that a very small minority of Muslims actually believe its okay.

I mean if you want to start comparing between the two religions, perhaps it would be much easier on all of us if you pick on rules that the majority practices.

I think that the toughest rule that Muslims have is probably praying five times a day, I don't think there is another religion that even comes close to that!

Well, how about we do list rules in each religion and discuss them in a civilized context. The reason Ice Tea said Catholics (since the post was about divorce and Catholics) why they would leave and maybe convert to Islam is due to the rules around divorce. We can start with that one and go from there. :)

Marianna what IceTea said is not an offense. It's true. People may convert from a religion to another because of the rules set by that religion. Some muslims convert because they don't like the Islamic rules and some christians also convert because they don't like the christianity rules. I believe any rule and law made by God is right and should be followed no matter how it seems stupid to us. They will eventually turn to be for our sake and good.

Mut'a is not Ok in Islam. Only some shite sect believe in this is Ok. And about the rest of course they are stupid rules to you. You live in a society where drinking, adultery, mostly nude attire is OK. And I've already said that some Islamic rules seem impossible to live with but the problem is in the people not the rules ( People who think like you, no offense ) .
None taken.

But you constantly seem to confuse society with religion. Drunkeness, adultery and public nudity is not ok in christianity. I'm not sure where you get such ideas from. :) Maybe in your rush to counter my argument you forget this.

Btw, shite sect was an ISLAMIC sect that follow the QURAN, last I checked.

Mut'a and Misyar are well established practices in Islam, practiced to this day in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq.

Apparenty you know more than all the mufti and sheiks who allow it.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=9&section=0&article=64891

Marianna what IceTea said is not an offense. It's true. People may convert from a religion to another because of the rules set by that religion. Some muslims convert because they don't like the Islamic rules and some christians also convert because they don't like the christianity rules. I believe any rule and law made by God is right and should be followed no matter how it seems stupid to us. They will eventually turn to be for our sake and good.
So you believe that the Catholic rule (made by God) of no divorce is better for our sakes? Wow. Thanks. Finally someone admits it. :)

Marianna what IceTea said is not an offense. It's true. People may convert from a religion to another because of the rules set by that religion. Some muslims convert because they don't like the Islamic rules and some christians also convert because they don't like the christianity rules. I believe any rule and law made by God is right and should be followed no matter how it seems stupid to us. They will eventually turn to be for our sake and good.
nobody said being a christian or a muslim was easy.

Just as Islam has rules for people to live their lives so does Christianity

The difference is in the fact that Christianity does not represent a way of life, unless you choose to follow it strictly by yourself and then it depends from what priests or pastors teach about the basics
I don't think many Christians are leaving Christianity for the simple fact that there's no need for that, just many of them are not practising ones and anyway they wouldn't enter an apparent tougher religion
The main problem is within the Catholic Church : the previous Pope left a difficult heritage for the current [who is not a soft type and usually succeeds in difficult tasks when he wants]
JP2 travelled a lot and was a myth for youth, but he left aside many important issues like the relation with Orthodox and the training of priests and their relations with their followers They made churches empty or almost
Am talking about Italy, where religion is lived in a different way
Interference among political and social issues, has become unbearable

Generally speaking though, in Islam for example, if one sees prayer or fasting or pilgrimage, like a mechanic act, then religion is just an arid tool within people lives
I was watching Magdi Allam [who converted publicly to Christianity on Easter ] interviews .
He said "yes true what they say that I never fasted in Ramadan nor prayed, but many Muslims do that, what's the big deal"
One who speaks that way, without understanding how prayer and other obligations we have, are simply a daily renewal of our bond to God, well he didn't understand much

None taken.

But you constantly seem to confuse society with religion. Drunkeness, adultery and public nudity is not ok in christianity. I'm not sure where you get such ideas from. :) Maybe in your rush to counter my argument you forget this.
Btw, shite sect was an ISLAMIC sect that follow the QURAN, last I checked.

Are you sure about this ? Cos we can set now and compare Islamic rules with christianity. I have really alot to say about. I just held myself because I know some of you will get offended by this. And I don't want this to happen. But it's your call.

So you believe that the Catholic rule (made by God) of no divorce is better for our sakes? Wow. Thanks. Finally someone admits it. :)

Yes I believe this if it's God's rule. And by the way there are also orthodox and protestants not only catholics and they all christians ;)

Getting drunk and lewed behavior are considered sins in Christanity. There are those out there who simply don't "follow the rules." Sadly it seems there are people who want the "easy" way out of life and when people are over generalized and placed in the same pot as those who do break the rules it can set those who try and follow them off so to speak.

nobody said being a christian or a muslim was easy.

That's what am saying and of course I mean true christian and muslim

Are you sure about this ? Cos we can set now and compare Islamic rules with christianity. I have really alot to say about. I just held myself because I know some of you will get offended by this. And I don't want this to happen. But it's your call.
You gave public nudity and adultery as examples of rules of a religion? Because if you did not, then your comments are off topic.

El ray.. please.. the thread is about rules of religion. Not what the bad side of every society is doing. You ARE confusing the two. First, society is not made up of one type of people. Or one denomination of faith. But it is a mix. Christians, muslims, jews, buddists, atheists, agnostics etc..

You want to compare the bad actions of all these people and put a christian label on them.
:rolleyes:

Mut'a and Misyar are well established practices in Islam, practiced to this day in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq.

Apparenty you know more than all the mufti and sheiks who allow it.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=9&section=0&article=64891

And may I remind you Wudjub, that there are 52 Muslim countries, not 3.

I think that Islam is certainly a religion that needs a lot of discipline and it is a way of life, however to take rules that the majority don't believe in is silly in my opinion. If you want to do a legitimate comparison, take the general rules from both religions, not rules that are so controversial to Muslims themselves.

I placed the peace symbol on this thread to hopefully have great discussions. Now I would like to know what are the similarities in rules between Islam and Christanity not to be a pansy *** but to honestly know.

And may I remind you Wudjub, that there are 52 Muslim countries, not 3.

I think that Islam is certainly a religion that needs a lot of discipline and it is a way of life, however to take rules that the majority don't believe in is silly in my opinion. If you want to do a legitimate comparison, take the general rules from both religions, not rules that are so controversial to Muslims themselves.
I wasn't making a comparison. I mentioned that in my own opinion, as a NON MUSLIM, some rules are pretty useless, silly or contradictory. Who follows them, how many, if you also think they are silly etc.. was not my argument.

But then I was asked to give examples. And I did.

Seems like many muslims find my examples contradictory or controversial. So maybe there's more to it than just some non-muslim's opinion. ;)

i think many muslims see 'white people from the west' as ALL being christians. same way we'll see a man in a long arabic dress, turban and sandals as 'muslim'. so if a white guy westerner in jeans is drunk they'll go 'pfft...these christians!'.

You gave public nudity and adultery as examples of rules of a religion? Because if you did not, then your comments are off topic.

El ray.. please.. the thread is about rules of religion. Not what the bad side of every society is doing. You ARE confusing the two. First, society is not made up of one type of people. Or one denomination of faith. But it is a mix. Christians, muslims, jews, buddists, atheists, agnostics etc..

You want to compare the bad actions of all these people and put a christian label on them.
:rolleyes:

Duh I mean religion not society. Don't worry I know the difference between the two. And what I meant is discussing and comparing the two religions rules and laws. But am sure we will never end. It will only be a casting and defensive thread. I already smell the heat of it :p

True and sadly people do get stereotyped and categorized as if we all are made from the same cloth.

This looked to be of interest:

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#fateha

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#similarities_basic

Islam

Creation
Qur'an 35:13
He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.

Christianity
Creation
Genesis 1:14
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night,
and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

Moral Code:

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#similarities_moral

I wasn't making a comparison. I mentioned that in my own opinion, as a NON MUSLIM, some rules are pretty useless, silly or contradictory. Who follows them, how many, if you also think they are silly etc.. was not my argument.

But then I was asked to give examples. And I did.

Seems like many muslims find my examples contradictory or controversial. So maybe there's more to it than just some non-muslim's opinion. ;)

Thalia,

The point is how are we suppose to compare and discuss rules of both religions, if you are bringing up certain rules that are forbidden to the majority of Muslims on this board and the world?

There would not be much point to this thread then. It would be better to come up with other rules that apply to the majority of Muslims on this board, so we can properly discuss.

I personally believe Mut3a is forbidden, and this applies to almost all Omanis as well. IceTea is an advocate against Mut3a. So even if you girls want to compare marriage in Islam and Christianity after being provoked by Mr. Tea, better bring up something he can argue for, not something that he doesn't even believe is allowed in Islam.

You used plural.. now I'm confused.

So far, from the 3 I mentioned that I see pointless or silly, one seems to be practiced by only one sect of Islam.

What about the others? Can I mention them as rules I see pointless and silly?

It was simply a passing comment in one of my posts. I was asked to elaborate, I did. Do we have to make the thread about the examples I was asked to give?

If so, be my guests. The thing is, that is my opinion. I probably know what your opinion is about them, and it's not going to change mine. So really, I see no point in arguing over what I think is silly or not.

Similarities in Moral Code

Both Islam and Christanity say society laws must be obeyed.

Intoxication is forbidden in both religions.

Parents are to be honored in both.

Suicide is forbidden in both.

Homosexuality is foribidden in both.

God severely punishes those who worship any other God.

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#similarities_moral

You used plural.. now I'm confused.

So far, from the 3 I mentioned that I see pointless or silly, one seems to be practiced by only one sect of Islam.

What about the others? Can I mention them as rules I see pointless and silly?

It was simply a passing comment in one of my posts. I was asked to elaborate, I did. Do we have to make the thread about the examples I was asked to give?

If so, be my guests. The thing is, that is my opinion. I probably know what your opinion is about them, and it's not going to change mine. So really, I see no point in arguing over what I think is silly or not.

Oh okay, sorry about that, I didn't mean to make it a big deal, I forgot that you are not very well acquainted with what a lot of the Muslims think of these controversial 'rules'.

Sophis, whats your opinion on the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Prof Dr Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi ?

Would he be considered a reliable muslim scholar ?

Marianna

I really appreciate what you are doing
Problems are :

1] similarities in big issues belonging to moral and spiritual sphere do not correspond to the punishments given here on earth and the hereafter, and their meaning depends a lot on the mediator in Christianity
2] we can't find similarities in what we call "small issues"[behavioural ones like the eyebrows, the right hand and foot to use for eating or cleaning and so on, whose practise lead to the shaping of the Muslim personality, essential feature to tend to the oneness of God] which are not really small because most of them, coming from the Sunnah, are recommended but not obligatory
On this, big troubles start for Muslim, because based on how sects interpret the verses of Sura al Maida for example, on the definition of kufr, zulm and fisq [disbelieving, rebelling, wrongdoing], the line between sinner and kafir becomes very tiny

Thanks amo...I guess what I wanted to do was try and see the similarities whatever they may be and find a bond and whatever the differences are discuss them but in a scholarly manner which I know can be hard sometimes because of past issues with other members but I was just curious. And when my reply to a posting was deleted I felt (the stubbornness in me) to start a new thread regarding rules and religion.

what about laws where people get punished here on earth for breaking a religious law? is that common in all countries? in most of them?

I think it is common in regards to murder. Rape not sure of. I know that in the West religious teachings are not really placed in the legal system as far as what the punishment should be.

Sophis, whats your opinion on the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Prof Dr Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi ?

Would he be considered a reliable muslim scholar ?

In general, I don't take after Shaykh Tantawi.

Why?

Anyway Wudjub, I am someone who follows something called "Ikhtilaf", which means that I don't stick to one Sheikh or school of law. On the matter of Mut3a or Misyar, I hold the Ibadhi view - which means they are both forbidden (as far as I know).

Just asking.

Because Tantawi is on record saying Misyar and Mut'a is allowed.

what about laws where people get punished here on earth for breaking a religious law? is that common in all countries? in most of them?

Actually, for us, religious laws are split into three, God's rights, Human right's and mixed rights. God's rights are seen to be a private matter between the individual and God, so that would not be placed in the legal system. Human right's will obviously have laws that are in the legal system that will regulate it. Mixed rights, which are both God's and humans, such as prohibition to defame, would also be regulated by the legal system.

So for example, not praying or not veiling, etc these are seen as God's rights and a private matter between the individual and God, so it would not be punishable by the legal system.

But they are punished in several muslim societies, aren't they ?

But they are punished in several muslim societies, aren't they ?

That's because those societies (e.g. KSA) have placed what the rest of us Muslims consider as exclusive God's rights, into the category of mixed rights and that's how they extended their jurisdiction into forcing people to pray or veil.

But obviously, not everyone shares the view of KSA.

Actually, for us, religious laws are split into three, God's rights, Human right's and mixed rights. God's rights are seen to be a private matter between the individual and God, so that would not be placed in the legal system. Human right's will obviously have laws that are in the legal system that will regulate it. Mixed rights, which are both God's and humans, such as prohibition to defame, would also be regulated by the legal system.

So for example, not praying or not veiling, etc these are seen as God's rights and a private matter between the individual and God, so it would not be punishable by the legal system.

This is a fascinating distinction and one I have not heard before.

Where does it come from? Does it have a pedigree, i.e., is it just a recent opinion by some folks? Or is it proposed by ancient teachers?

In other words, is the is a new way of looking at things? Or is it established, recognized by all and uncontroversial?

How do you think the Iranian scholars that run their country would respond, if one were to argue, "You shouldn't be punishing women for not covering...that's God's rights."?

Do they have another way of analyzing it?

This is a fascinating distinction and one I have not heard before.

Where does it come from? Does it have a pedigree, i.e., is it just a recent opinion by some folks? Or is it proposed by ancient teachers?

In other words, is the is a new way of looking at things? Or is it established, recognized by all and uncontroversial?

How do you think the Iranian scholars that run their country would respond, if one were to argue, "You shouldn't be punishing women for not covering...that's God's rights."?

Do they have another way of analyzing it?


Actually this is firmly established in Islamic law by the very early Muslim jurists that there are three different types of rights. Exclusive rights of God (huqquq Allah) would fall under God's jurisdiction (i.e. worship and ritual), which He alone can vindicate, so the legal system would not bother with it. It is only human rights (huqquq Adamiyyah) and mixed rights (rights that are God has referred to in the Qur'an, but also effect humans such as defamation and justice) that the legal system would address.

What these modern states (e.g. KSA and Iran) have done, is that they have moved what is originally seen as exclusive rights of God into the category of mixed rights, through very strange reasoning. For example, the Saudis would say that even though prayer is a right of God, if Muslims prayed they would become better citizens of the State, which would lead to less crimes and so on and therefore prayer isn't just a right of God, it effects people as well. Through this reasoning they moved what are exclusive rights of God, into mixed rights. This way they expanded their jurisdiction, pretty much trespassed onto God's jurisdiction and started playing God sadly. Obviously this meant, that by enforcing God's rights, this compromised the human rights of people and pretty much leads to social hypocrisy and the dislike of religion.

The funny thing is that the traditional/classical jurists were very concerned that people should get their human rights (that's why they never dared addressing God's rights and left it to God). In the context of human rights, back in the 11th century, they even split it into three categories; fundamental rights, necessary benefits (hajiyat) and improvement benefits (tahsiyniyat). Nowadays, these new modern states, have disregarded this and have started enforcing God's rights, which in classical Islamic law is supposed to lie in God's jurisdiction.

Thanks sophis....examples help and gives me a better understanding when it is written this way where I at least personally can try and understand it better. Sometimes, I think...at least in certain countries such as what you discussed can be abused by man such as i.e. the driving and how women in certain countries are constrained to particular jobs. I think men can take what God said and twist the words to fit their cultural norms. I have seen this prevelent in many societies and not just Muslim. I remember during the Puritan period in the USA how religion was used to monitor individual acts.

so it appears more than 40,000 imams need to be retrained.

much of the muslim population needs to be retrained.

including most of the worlds leading clerics. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4&feature=related)

how did so many get it and still do get it wrong?

Thanks sophis....examples help and gives me a better understanding when it is written this way where I at least personally can try and understand it better. Sometimes, I think...at least in certain countries such as what you discussed can be abused by man such as i.e. the driving and how women in certain countries are constrained to particular jobs. I think men can take what God said and twist the words to fit their cultural norms. I have seen this prevelent in many societies and not just Muslim. I remember during the Puritan period in the USA how religion was used to monitor individual acts.

Exactly. Actually in the academic circles, these new movements, such as the Wahhabi (in KSA) are called the puritan movement. They are very alien to classical Islamic law, and they have pretty much dismissed much of the Islamic juristic tradition.

Also, the best way to control people is when some mullahs say that this is God's law and is fixed, so that people don't ask questions. :D The funny thing, in classical Islamic law (and many other modern scholars), they would always say that Islamic law can change from time and place, and that only God knows best, since they could be wrong.

I just have to say thank you again for making this easier to understand. Means allot. Kudos. :)

I just have to say thank you again for making this easier to understand. Means allot. Kudos. :)

No problem. :p

I remember during the Puritan period how far fetched I thought the religious interpretation was. Sometimes I wonder about them due to the fact people came to the USA to practice religious freedom however the Puritans seemed not to want that for their people. When such constraints are placed upon a population there can be a violent aftermath such as protesting and cries for change...which of course led to the Salem Witch Trials and innocent people were condemned as being witches because they spoke out against the "norm" of that time period when in fact they were questioning the belief system of that time.

Actually this is firmly established in Islamic law by the very early Muslim jurists that there are three different types of rights. Exclusive rights of God (huqquq Allah) would fall under God's jurisdiction (i.e. worship and ritual), which He alone can vindicate, so the legal system would not bother with it. It is only human rights (huqquq Adamiyyah) and mixed rights (rights that are God has referred to in the Qur'an, but also effect humans such as defamation and justice) that the legal system would address.

What these modern states (e.g. KSA and Iran) have done, is that they have moved what is originally seen as exclusive rights of God into the category of mixed rights, through very strange reasoning. For example, the Saudis would say that even though prayer is a right of God, if Muslims prayed they would become better citizens of the State, which would lead to less crimes and so on and therefore prayer isn't just a right of God, it effects people as well. Through this reasoning they moved what are exclusive rights of God, into mixed rights. This way they expanded their jurisdiction, pretty much trespassed onto God's jurisdiction and started playing God sadly. Obviously this meant, that by enforcing God's rights, this compromised the human rights of people and pretty much leads to social hypocrisy and the dislike of religion.

The funny thing is that the traditional/classical jurists were very concerned that people should get their human rights (that's why they never dared addressing God's rights and left it to God). In the context of human rights, back in the 11th century, they even split it into three categories; fundamental rights, necessary benefits (hajiyat) and improvement benefits (tahsiyniyat). Nowadays, these new modern states, have disregarded this and have started enforcing God's rights, which in classical Islamic law is supposed to lie in God's jurisdiction.

This is fascinating. And I like it very much.

But here's what I wonder.

If I am conversing with a Muslim who doesn't agree with this, or if I am talking to a person who is skeptical of Islam or has a bad impression of this, where can I go to get confirmation?

I'm sure you got this from your studies, but are there maybe some online links or something I could use to help prove my case?

This was taken from another post since my reply was deleted. I feel that religions are there to guide us. Just as Islam has rules for people to live their lives so does Christianity and since my post was deleted in the other one I am creating a new thread here.

I don't want to offend you but the church rules like no divorce and a priest not allowed to get married, etc are man made rules, while in Islam we follow the Quran and prophet pbuh sunnah.

Similarities in Moral Code

Both Islam and Christanity say society laws must be obeyed.

Intoxication is forbidden in both religions.

Parents are to be honored in both.

Suicide is forbidden in both.

Homosexuality is foribidden in both.

God severely punishes those who worship any other God.

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#similarities_moral

Good at least you admit now drinking alcohol is forbidden.

And what do you say about worshiping Jesus?

Good at least you admit now drinking alcohol is forbidden.

And what do you say about worshiping Jesus?

She didn't say alcohol is forbidden. It is not, of course.

She said drunkenness is forbidden, which is quite a different thing.

And you know about worshipping Jesus. He is Lord and we give him the worship He is due.

But this is a DIFFERENCE, not a similarity. We have so many threads in which we can talk about differences, why not let this one be about similarities? I think that's the idea, right?

I don't want to offend you but the church rules like no divorce and a priest not allowed to get married, etc are man made rules, while in Islam we follow the Quran and prophet pbuh sunnah.

As a rule, per se, priests not marrying is man-made. It's a good idea, as Jesus says, to remain a "eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom", but not required. We choose our priests from those who wish to follow this advice in the West. But in the East, married men can be ordained and are.

The teaching on the permanence and indissolubility of marriage is from Allah, we will have to insist, I'm afraid...

You will not agree. But then we will do the Yes. No. Yes. No dance. Which doesn't usually get anywhere.

Well, no offense from me on the subject you mention about prophet and Quran etc.! If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be a Muslim, would you?

So you announce it is true.

Thank you. I know your concern is genuine.

But we don't believe it, I'm afraid.

However, as the thread points out, we DO believe things in common.

One thing is that we DO believe that God can speak to men and that His Revelation can appear in eternally valuable and valid written form.

She didn't say alcohol is forbidden. It is not, of course.

She said drunkenness is forbidden, which is quite a different thing.

And you know about worshipping Jesus. He is Lord and we give him the worship He is due.

But this is a DIFFERENCE, not a similarity. We have so many threads in which we can talk about differences, why not let this one be about similarities? I think that's the idea, right?

The thing is evil should be cut from it's roots, that is why alcohol is forbidden wheather it is small or big amount.

And I mentioned Jesus because worshiping a man is associating partners with God in worship, so it's a kind of contradiction what marianna has mentioned in her list. However, the Quran always invited people of the book to come to a common ground and worship non but Allah alone.

This is fascinating. And I like it very much.

But here's what I wonder.

If I am conversing with a Muslim who doesn't agree with this, or if I am talking to a person who is skeptical of Islam or has a bad impression of this, where can I go to get confirmation?

I'm sure you got this from your studies, but are there maybe some online links or something I could use to help prove my case?

Unfortunately, most of the good stuff are academic articles, so you'll need to have access.

But, I did find this page on religious freedom in Islam http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/apostasy_and_religious_freedom/ and the author does write about this under his heading "Theory of right". The author is also a board member of the study of Islam and democracy and an exceutive director of ISNA. He regularly gives lectures on Islam, human rights, etc. So he does know this material! :p

There is also this blog http://underprogress.blogs.com/weblog/law_ethics/index.html. If you scroll right down, well almost, there is a heading called "Rights of Muslim jurisprudence", where the author has referred to some professors. Anyway, after reading those two, perhaps you can do a search and hopefully you'll end up with more pages mentioning the theory of rights in Islam. :D

Enjoy reading! :p

Tea,

If you are following the sunnah of the Prophet, then you are also following man made rules.

Unless of course, you are saying that Mohammed was a God.

The point is...
IceTea is just constantly constantly misunderstood :rolleyes:

Rules exist to protect people from people and the individual from himself.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
It is only a Revelation revealed.

And I mentioned Jesus because worshiping a man is associating partners with God in worship, so it's a kind of contradiction what marianna has mentioned in her list. However, the Quran always invited people of the book to come to a common ground and worship non but Allah alone.

They have always seemed accpeting of that to me, IceTea!
Jeff, marianna, minerva, wudjab and Thalia here all seem interested in worshipping Allah alone, with no other Gods next to Him. No man, nothing like that.

The thing is evil should be cut from it's roots, that is why alcohol is forbidden wheather it is small or big amount.

And I mentioned Jesus because worshiping a man is associating partners with God in worship, so it's a kind of contradiction what marianna has mentioned in her list. However, the Quran always invited people of the book to come to a common ground and worship non but Allah alone.

Sigh...!

:)

Well, obviously, we don't agree that alcohol is evil. We believe that it is a great blessing, if used properly.

But, as marianna pointed out, we DO believe in common that DRUNKENNESS is evil.

And we don't worship Jesus as a partner with God. We worship Him because He is the One God.

And THAT precisely is our Common Word. That's why the whole Common Word initiative of Muslim scholars is based on recognition of this fact.

But again, if you are interested in what is common, let's talk about what's common.

Isn't that what this thread is about?

Another thing we have in common is arguing about what religion is right, I guess.

Edited....

Answer the question Tea.

If you base your rules on the sunnah of the Prophet, then you are following man made rules.

They have always seemed accpeting of that to me, IceTea!
Jeff, marianna, minerva, wudjab and Thalia here all seem interested in worshipping Allah alone, with no other Gods next to Him. No man, nothing like that.

That will be good, but the truth is they are worshiping Jesus who is man.

You said:
'worship none but Allah alone' as being the common ground.
Are you taking this back? Yes or no?

Sigh...!

:)

Well, obviously, we don't agree that alcohol is evil. We believe that it is a great blessing, if used properly.

But, as marianna pointed out, we DO believe in common that DRUNKENNESS is evil.

And we don't worship Jesus as a partner with God. We worship Him because He is the One God.

And THAT precisely is our Common Word. That's why the whole Common Word initiative of Muslim scholars is based on recognition of this fact.

But again, if you are interested in what is common, let's talk about what's common.

Isn't that what this thread is about?

Another thing we have in common is arguing about what religion is right, I guess.

What are the blessings of drinking alcohol, and how can you make sure people will not get drunk if they start drinking?

That is where you lost the way, worshiping Jesus as God, while he is one of Allah prophets.

Is there a contradiction between the oneness of Allah and the Trinity?

Yes/No?

Answer the question Tea.

If you base your rules on the sunnah of the Prophet, then you are following man made rules.


Your question has been answered.

IceTea...
Let me go now a little slower for your mind to accept ANSWERING things BEFORE asking...
You said:
'worship none but Allah alone' as being the common ground.
Are you taking this back? Yes or no?

As per the Qura'n, the Christians worship one God only...That is their 'common word' with us. If you have EVER read that verse of the Qura'n.
Now, do you take this back? Yes or no?

Tea,

You said because we follow the rules that Jesus laid down, we are following man made rules - although we believe Jesus is God.

Fair enough.

Now even though you claim that Mohammed was NOT a God, you follow the rules he laid down - so, and to keep it simple - you are also following man made rules.

Please trying answering this with an actual answer not the usual dodge which is your speciality.

What are the blessings of drinking alcohol, and how can you make sure people will not get drunk if they start drinking?

That is where you lost the way, worshiping Jesus as God, while he is one of Allah prophets.

The blessings of drinking alcohol come from the relaxation and pleasure that come from drinking it. It tends to help in fellowship and good cheer among people too, if rightly used.

Many people drink without getting drunk. Me, for example. It's very easy. You just drink only a little. And then you don't get drunk.

I am not shocked that you don't think Jesus is God! :p

But if He WAS God, you would have to admit that He deserves worship. That's why we worship Him.

Answering my question will answer your question.

What is the nature of God which Christians worship, 3 in 1 God? Yes/No

Nope...
Christians worship one God only as far as they say and I know.
Now, care to answer mine or are you going to pursue your questions and keep running from mine?

wudjab, Jesus didn't change God rules.

About prophet Mohammed, I have gave you the quotes from the Quran.

Next question.

No thats now how it works.

Why do you follow man made rules Tea ?

What do you know?

And you didn't answer the questions yet.

wudjab, give examples of the man made rules.

"Now even though you claim that Mohammed was NOT a God, you follow the rules he laid down - so, and to keep it simple - you are also following man made rules."

wudjab, the laws that Mohammed PBUH laid form part of the Sunnah.
His laws are applicable because HE is the FINAL MESSENGER. His words are not inspired by his own thinking, but through God's thinking. But, at the same time, he is not God in the flesh. Allah SWT ordered us to follow Him because He (Allah SWT) chose him to deliver HIS (Allah's) message. He is the Messenger of Allah's message...Nothing more.

Is there a contradiction between the oneness of Allah and the Trinity?

Yes/No?

It depends what you mean by 'Trinity'. The orthodox Christian idea of the Trinity contains no contradiction with the Oneness of God. But I think the Muslims here are now experts on the Trinity after all this time! :p

Anything about the Trinity that detracts from God's Unity we deny.

In fact, St. Thomas Aquinas, our greatest theologian and philosopher said that there is nothing that exists is more deserving of the name of Unity than the Trinity.

Nothing created is more One than the Trinity is.

Anything about the Trinity that detracts from God's Unity we deny.



The Trinity and God incarnation is all against the true God.

The Trinity and God incarnation is all against the true God.

Oh, okay then... Nice to have that cleared up.

Why don't we try for the Common Word thing? You know, what we have in Common?

What do we have in common, Ice Tea?

OH GOD YES! We beat the Trinity issue to DEATH! Let's talk about positive attributes of similarities. SHEESH!

Nothing Jeff.
We have nothing in common you big Kaffir...NOTHING!

Nah, just kidding really lol
According to my book we have a hell lot of stuff in common.

Nothing Jeff.
We have nothing in common you big Kaffir...NOTHING!

Nah, just kidding really lol
According to my book we have a hell lot of stuff in common.

And hell!

That's something else we have in common! :)

And if we're not careful, I guess many of us can REALLY have it in common! ;)

We have many common things but the problem is that Christians believe Jesus cancelled all the laws.

We have many common things but the problem is that Christians believe Jesus cancelled all the laws.

Well, it's nice to hear you say that first part! :)

What makes you feel commonness when you are speaking to a Christian or a Jew?

Threadlike,

I'm only doing the same thing Tea is doing.

Since we follow the teaching of Jesus, who'm he claims is NOT God, we are following man made rules.

By EXACTLY the same logic, since he follows the example of Mohammed who'm we all agree is NOT God, he is also following man made rules.

I hope it is clear to you now.

Hopefully W. HOPEFULLY.

Well, it's nice to hear you say that first part! :)

What makes you feel commonness when you are speaking to a Christian or a Jew?

The source of Torah, Injeel and the Quran is from Allah.
Moses, Jesus and Mohammed pbuh all God prophets.

But of course the first two scriputures not in their original form.

Seem like Tea has left the building.

The source of Torah, Injeel and the Quran is from Allah.
Moses, Jesus and Mohammed pbuh all God prophets.

But of course the first two scriputures not in their original form.


Yay! Brotherhood! :)

It seems like you hate to say it, but you said it! :)

Put a few differences in there too but that's okay... ;)

Come on Tea, how come following the behaviour of Mohammed is not following man made laws ?

Thank you for participating in on going off topic posts in this thread :)

Thread locked