I think it is a good topic for discussion.


In the Old Testament, God permits Moses to allow divorce under some circumstances. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount says that any man who divorces his wife causes her to become an adulteress.



Why she will become an adulteress?

Don't Christians divorce through civil court?

They can but Catholics are not suppose to get a divorce.

And if they divorce the woman will become an adulteress?

In catholicism you take vows to wed "until death do us part". Therefore a divorce is not recognised by the catholic church.

Therefore, you cannot re-marry in a catholic church if you get a civil divorce. So when you, man or woman, live with someone after getting a civil divorce, in catholicism it is seen as adultery because the catholic marriage to the first husband/wife is still intact.

But. The Church is not blind to the realities of life and the cruel intentions of people and so, if your so called marriage was a failure from the start, for example, was an act of deception etc .. it will declare that it was null against proof. Null means the marriage never was a marriage to begin with.

You get what's called an annulment and you re-marry in catholic church.

I know a woman who married a man and later found out he was gay. She got an annulment, because that was a "marriage" of deception. She later remarrried someone else in Church again.

In catholicism, a true, valid marriage is until death.

Thanks for the explanation Thalia, but do you see the catholic church law not to allow divorce as a failure looking at the realities of life?

How about if the man was not gay in the begining then became gay?

When you get married in a catholic church you are well and truly prepared for it. It is not a failure.. it's not like you woke up one morning and found out you were married.

Don't you think Catholics know what they are getting into and do so by choice when they get married in a catholic church? It is the strongest of all vows. "I marry you, till I die."

It would be a shame if this thread turned into another of your 'criticise by ridicule and never ever read replies' thread. It kinda dies there.

As for the second question, you'd have to ask the people who assess the validity of a marriage. The ones you go to when you ask for an annullment. I really couldn't help you there.

I don't know if it is in place but... Does the couple HAVE to say something to each other by themselves?
Is that part of the "marriage code" or it is something extra?

I don't know if it is in place but... Does the couple HAVE to say something to each other by themselves?
Is that part of the "marriage code" or it is something extra?
What? In what way squinty? You mean, do they have to both be present and say "yes, I do" ?

In that case, yes. And if she or he has been threatened into it or blackmailed etc.. the marriage is null.

Do all Christians marry in a catholic church? if not why?

If I didn't read your replies, how I will ask you questions, I can see that you have started to be sensitive and defensive again.

It is the strongest of all vows. "I marry you, till I die."



It is not practical challenge.

Ice Tea, you know that there are Baptists and Methodists and other Christians sects do you HONESTLY believe they all marry in the Catholic church. Come on.

marianna, then which sect is right?

What? In what way squinty? You mean, do they have to both be present and say "yes, I do" ?

In that case, yes. And if she or he has been threatened into it or blackmailed etc.. the marriage is null.

No I mean when you both are there.
The man should say something from his own words and his own writing the same with the woman.
Is that a rule as well or something extra?

I am not talking about what they have to say after the priest.

Do all Christians marry in a catholic church? if not why?

If I didn't read your replies, how I will ask you questions, I can see that you have started to be sensitive and defensive again.
Sensitive? no. Defensive? yes. Because I can see you coming like a stampede of wildebeasts from 9 miles away. :rolleyes: You may not realise, but you do kinda follow a pattern.


Why catholics don't marry in a church? It's their choice. They are not forced to.. but the church does not recognise that marriage.

It's kinda like asking.. "why do some muslims skip prayers? Don't you think that praying 5 times a day can be a burden to the demands of modern day life?"

Some people choose not to live a Catholic life. Many many many others do and embrace it wholly. Am sure you can understand that.

I don't believe Prophet Eisa (Jesus) PBUH said anything like that. Its not acceptable. Prophet Eisa was the messenger of the One God, and the true teachings of God are perfect.

Anyhow, the whole issue is irrelevant in today's Christian world. Today, its common to have boyfriends/girlfriends who have sexual relationships without being married, and this is very common, even among high school students, adultery means to have sex with someone without being married to him/her, so basically, they all commit adultery, and it has become an acceptable practice.

I don't mean to be disrespectful friends, but I bet you all agree with what I say :)

It is not practical challenge.
For you maybe it is too tough a challenge. I understand. :yes:

But for other people around the world it is perfect. Just as having one woman all your life can be perfect.

I pray God that someday you may understand that and might even see the light. The truth in Christianity.

:D

I don't believe Prophet Eisa (Jesus) PBUH said anything like that. Its not acceptable. Prophet Eisa was the messenger of the One God, and the true teachings of God are perfect.

Anyhow, the whole issue is irrelevant in today's Christian world. Today, its common to have boyfriends/girlfriends who have sexual relationships without being married, and this is very common, even among high school students, adultery means to have sex with someone without being married to him/her, so basically, they all commit adultery, and it has become an acceptable practice.

I don't mean to be disrespectful friends, but I bet you all agree with what I say :)
"they all commit adultery"


I thought Jeff, a christian, was your friend. And you go ahead and generalise like that? tsk tsk...

Why catholics don't marry in a church? It's their choice. They are not forced to.. but the church does not recognise that marriage.

It's kinda like asking.. "why do some muslims skip prayers? Don't you think that praying 5 times a day can be a burden to the demands of modern day life?"

.

What Christians will gain if the marraige is recognised by the church?

The 5 daily prayers provides spiritual food to the soul, so it help to execute the demands of modern day life, not a valid comparison though.

"they all commit adultery"


I thought Jeff, a christian, was your friend. And you go ahead and generalise like that? tsk tsk...

The "they" didn't refer to all Christians around the world, that would be generalizing and its something only pathetic idiots do, the "they" referred to the students and others I mentioned in my thread :)

Btw, you remind me of all those "what does .... refer to" questions :hyper:

No I mean when you both are there.
The man should say something from his own words and his own writing the same with the woman.
Is that a rule as well or something extra?

I am not talking about what they have to say after the priest.
You mean the vows..

You can either write your own vows, or repeat after the priest.

For example, you can write a poem and promise your wife.. "You are my light, you are my life.. blah blah blah.. and I promise you I will support you, love you, be there when you're at your best, at your lowest, etc etc .. until I die..."

Or just follow the usual original "I take thee to be my lawful wedded wife, to have and to hold, in sickness and in health... etc etc .. till death do us part.."

For you maybe it is too tough a challenge. I understand. :yes:

But for other people around the world it is perfect. Just as having one woman all your life can be perfect.

I pray God that someday you may understand that and might even see the light. The truth in Christianity.

:D


What is perfect about it, it is not practical, is it better to live in prison if the marraige is not working and a failure, be logical.

Do you really think that this law will prevent men form having more than one woman?

So if we decided to start a thread as to why Muslim men feel that they have to have more than one wife (and divorce seems to be a nice option in some countries in the ME) you would not be as offended as some of us here are with this insipid thread?

You're new here, search the forum and you will find tons of that kind of threads ;). Anyhow, you're free to open such a thread again, and you will get all answers you want, I promise. There isn't a single teaching in Islam that is questionable or isn't perfect, just like other religions like Judaism and Christianity. The only difference is that Islam has been preserved, while others have not!

You mean the vows..

You can either write your own vows, or repeat after the priest.

For example, you can write a poem and promise your wife.. "You are my light, you are my life.. blah blah blah.. and I promise you I will support you, love you, be there when you're at your best, at your lowest, etc etc .. until I die..."

Or just follow the usual original "I take thee to be my lawful wedded wife, to have and to hold, in sickness and in health... etc etc .. till death do us part.."

Ohh.. ok thank you for answering! :cute:

So if we decided to start a thread as to why Muslim men feel that they have to have more than one wife (and divorce seems to be a nice option in some countries in the ME) you would not be as offended as some of us here are with this insipid thread?

Why offended?

Islam allowed men to marry up to 4 women and divorce also allowed as a solution to end a non working marraige.

A divorced woman can start new life again and get married, she will not be considered practicing adultry as in Christianity.

What is perfect about it, it is not practical, is it better to live in prison if the marraige is not working and a failure, be logical.

Do you really think that this law will prevent men form having more than one woman?
No. But it makes a believer in Christ do anything to salvage his marriage, to work hard for it from the start.. and not sweep his blunders under a carpet by getting 1, 2 or another 3 wives. :)

Islam allowed men to marry up to 4 women and divorce also allowed as a solution to end a non working marraige.

A divorced woman can start new life again and get married, she will not be considered practicing adultry as in Christianity.

But doesn't it reduce their reputation and make them think it is adultery?
or even worse...

They are both kinda similar.

No. But it makes a believer in Christ do anything to salvage his marriage, to work hard for it from the start.. and not sweep his blunders under a carpet by getting 1, 2 or another 3 wives. :)

Jesus said "think not that I came to abolish the law of Moses".

That means the divorce law still valid.

So a woman or man who ends up getting married and divorced multiple times is ok??? Doesn't that in and of itself say something about the individual who is perhaps having a hard time retaining a relationship that something is mentally wrong with THEM? Seems kind of strange to me...if you cannot retain a relationship because the two cannot agree on something is strange. I can see if there is abuse going on to get an annullment but first go for counseling. Divorce if there is to be any should be seen as a last resort or at the most just be separated. But divorcing at a drop of a hat is utterly distasteful and people will do that in Christian and Muslim marriages.

Jesus said "think not that I came to abolish the law of Moses".

That means the divorce law still valid.
hahahahahahaha

you can help yourself can you. :D

You give yourself away so so quickly. I think you've broken your own record now. :hyper:

I don't believe Prophet Eisa (Jesus) PBUH said anything like that. Its not acceptable. Prophet Eisa was the messenger of the One God, and the true teachings of God are perfect.

Anyhow, the whole issue is irrelevant in today's Christian world. Today, its common to have boyfriends/girlfriends who have sexual relationships without being married, and this is very common, even among high school students, adultery means to have sex with someone without being married to him/her, so basically, they all commit adultery, and it has become an acceptable practice.

I don't mean to be disrespectful friends, but I bet you all agree with what I say :)

Okay, Brother STING, this is a long one, but I'm gonna ask you to read it all anyway because I love you and I'm going to open my mind and my heart too to answer it fully.

Of COURSE we don't agree with what you say! I don't anyway. :p

There is nothing disrespectful about your believing that the teachings of the Bible are not perfect or that some are untrue. After all, we believe the same about your book. But we can still respect it and even learn from it.

Anyway, if you don't respect the Catholic Church's teaching on divorce, I don't think you need to pretend. It's better for us all just to say what we think and feel. God bless you for being willing to be honest about it.

Here is what Jesus says in another place on the same topic, which makes the whole question a little more clear:


3
Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?"
4
He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female'
5
and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6
So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate."
7
They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?"
8
He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery."

Matthew 19: 3-9.

From this one can see that the discussion of divorce presumes remarriage, that's the problem. It's a problem because the two are joined not just by law, but are actully made "one flesh" by God. That means in His eyes, they have become fused irrevocably into a unity.

The reason why divorce and remarriage causes adultery is because divorce doesn't change the true state of things. When you get a divorce, you are still "one flesh" with your ex-wife. You are still one, whatever the piece of paper says.

So, when you marry another, you are doing just the same thing as you would be doing it you DON'T have a divorce. Committing adultery.

I am sorry that you have gotten to know such un-edifying young Christians but in any case, the ones I know don't have sex with each other. Nor do they regard that as normal. Hang around on some of the blogs and websites of serious young Catholics and tell them that they are having sex or that they think it doesn't matter if Catholics have sex or that that is what their friends think and you will get quite an earful! :p

Nor, of course, do they regard divorce as okay.

My friends certainly don't. They love their wives and husbands and almost all of them, thank God, have wonderful marriages.

But if you ask them what they would do if their wife or husband divorced them and ran off with someone else, you would get the same answer as you would get from me: Tough it out and pray that they will return.

For me, this teaching is one of the most beautiful and persuasive in all of Catholicism. Marriage is not an arrangement of convenience between individuals. It is meant to be something absolutely holy and untouchable, something in which you make a total commitment to another person and give your life to them irrevocably.

And, you know, even people who don't believe in it are moved by it sometimes. When you hear those old words from the marriage ceremony:

"I, Jeffrey, take you, Elizabeth, as my lawful wedded wife;
to have and to hold from this day forward;
for better, for worse;
for richer, for poorer;
in sickness and in health,
til death do us part."

"Til death do us part." I am hers. She is mine. A huge responsibility before which I quiver and of which I am unworthy indeed.

"Til death do us part." This is what the ring symbolizes...the circle which binds and confines and is, after the earthly fashion, unbreakable and inescapable.

But if I thought I had an "out", my whole way of looking at her would change.
She is part of me: "My better half" as people say jokingly. Poor thing! She is stuck with me and she puts up with me, so I have to keep trying every day to be worthy of her.

Do I believe Jesus said it? Amen and Amen! With all my heart!

Is it a "hard saying"? Yes, it is. Jesus is full of "hard sayings".

Once He told the apostles that it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

And they said in astonishment, "Lord, if it's like that, who can be saved?"

"With men it is impossible. But with God, all things are possible", responded Jesus.

Yes, with God all things are possible, including faithfulness til death. And when I look in the eyes of my son, I rejoice that it is possible.

Do I believe that Jesus said it? Oh, yes, I certainly do.

Toward the end, when Jesus was telling his disciples and followers another--even harder!--saying, they decided He was nuts and started to drift away, bit by bit, until only the apostles and a few others were left.

Then He turned to His apostles and said, "Will you also go away?"

And Peter--wonderful Peter!--turned to Him and said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of Everlasting Life."

And I say that to Him too. I will let you look into my soul's response to it right at this moment:

"You have the words of Everlasting Life. I believe them and I believe you. I believe that whatever you say is true, Lord. I know that when I believe it and try to live it, a Light shines on all of life and it becomes dazzlingly beautiful and full of richness and wonder. I believe it because as you said once, "I am the Way. And the Truth. And the Life."

"You are the Truth, Lord. And as the old hymn says:

"Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius,
Nihil Veritatis verbo verius."

"I believe whatever He says, God's Son,
Nothing than the word of Truth is truer."

'Nothing is truer than the word of Truth Himself.'

Amen, Lord Jesus."

Are you still with me, Brother STING? After all that talk? :p

Well, I can't persuade you that it's right or that Jesus said it, I'm sure. But I CAN show you what is in the heart and mind of someone who believes it and loves it and is proud of it.

God bless you. I hope it helps.

Jesus said "think not that I came to abolish the law of Moses".

That means the divorce law still valid.

Not quite. He said "think not that I came to abolish the Law and the Prophets".
Matthew 5: 17-18.

Jesus said in the same place that He came to fulfill it.

That means to sum it up and bring it to completion.

You have to put the two together. And you have to read it in light of His other sayings as well.

Including His sayings about divorce. "Because of your hardness of heart. But it was not so from the beginning."

Brother Jeff was long indeed, but enriching as usual :)

First of all, I am glad you are open to the idea of someone not accepting your teachings, as I understand your doubts about my religion. The good thing is, we all agree that there is only one God and we must preach to this One common God, Right :)?

Also, I am glad that you accept that my understanding of adultery is correct and that many Christians that have gone astray commit it as normal business.

Imagine, I was applying for the Canadian Visa earlier and there was a section talking about whether I will be accompanied by my "common-law" partner, which later I found out referred to someone I "live" with for ages without being actually married.

Likewise, I am fond of many American and British Cinema and Art, and the terms (or social behaviors) dating, one-night stand, asking out, going out with someone, and so one all refer to and lead to adultery, right? :)

One reason I love talking to you and discussing such issues with you is because you say white is white and black is black. Its always easy to solve problems and discuss them when you agree that a problem exists.

Anyhow, back to the issue of divorce, I remember once I talked to you about divorce, and explained how it could be necessary, and how Islam considers it as the most disliked act that is not considered as a sin (by God).

The religion should be perfect and something that could be practiced, I accept that many Christians, just like you, condemn and disagree with the social behaviors that lead to adultery, but the truth is, the proportion of people like is far less than those who are on the other side, and I am sure you agree :)

Finally, one reason for strongly believing that statement couldn't be something said by Prophet Jesus (PBUH) is because I don't see women turning to adultery after getting divorced in the Islamic world, I see them get married.

Same goes for the women who get divorce in Western countries. You heard Jeniffer Lopez (J-Lo) gave birth to twins with her husband Mr. Mark Anthony? She was divorced a few times wasn't she? And you can surely think of many more examples :)

So how can someone you call God make a statement thats not true? Something that makes no sense? I am sorry, but my mind simply can't accept something thats false and insulting to divorced women. And the only thing that could cause a divorced woman to become an adulteress is if she is not allowed to re-marry!

So a woman or man who ends up getting married and divorced multiple times is ok??? Doesn't that in and of itself say something about the individual who is perhaps having a hard time retaining a relationship that something is mentally wrong with THEM? Seems kind of strange to me...if you cannot retain a relationship because the two cannot agree on something is strange. I can see if there is abuse going on to get an annullment but first go for counseling. Divorce if there is to be any should be seen as a last resort or at the most just be separated. But divorcing at a drop of a hat is utterly distasteful and people will do that in Christian and Muslim marriages.

Thats not OK. You need to understand that its not a game to marry multiple times and there are guidelines for them, and yes I a agree that many men take advantage of this here in the Islamic world.

Either way, as I said, this is a huge topic and needs a lot of discussion, I suggest you open another thread, but first search for old ones and you will surely find the answers, or at least search some of the online Islamic sites for multiple marriage related issues.

I as a Muslims never think of marrying more than once because I simply can't marry multiple times even if I want to, simply because I know I won't be able to satisfy the restrictions put by Islam. However, I do see the wisdom behind this, and btw way, multiple marriage is an excellent tool to demolish the sick and cheap practice of adultery in society :)

STING:

(I am responding to what you said to me. Now I say you wrote something to marianna, but I haven't read it yet.)

Sure, I see what you are saying.

But as I said, I don't see it as untrue at all.

I see it as a false solution.

Sometimes, when life gets too hard, we look for false solutions.

Sure, I can see why divorce seems like a solution. Of course, I can.

But the way I see it, if you allow it, it breeds more of itself.

Tragedies can happen when you forbid it. But tragedies can happen if you allow it, too.

And I don't think that divorce solves the problem. In practice, it breeds more divorce and more instability and it makes people look at each other in a completely different way when they get married.

I think the bottom line is: What is marriage? Is it an arrangement under law? Or is it a fusing of persons into one before God and a complete commitment?

I understand the argument about respect and divorced people having their children, etc.

But I think you can make this argument about all of God's laws. If you say, people shouldn't have boyfriends and girlfriends, but should get married, you will get people saying to you:

"But *I* am happy that way! And look at my friend so and so and my other friends such and such! And look at the poor person who got married and then his wife left him. Better not to get married but just to be partners."

If we are using movie stars as our benchmark, you will get that sort of response, not just on divorce, but on sex outside of marriage, homosexuality (but we are made that way! And we are happy being partners!), and many other things as well.

When we tell people about God's law, they always have lots of evidence that it's better if we don't do it that way! And that's true, whether we are talking about the Christian understanding or the Muslim one.

"I can't accept a law that is false and insulting to people like me who live together without marriage. I can't accept a law that is false and insulting to my gay friends."

Well, what do we say? What can we say?

I think you and I do the same thing. We start with the whole belief: the whole of Christianity. Or the whole of Islam. And then if something seems difficult or puzzling, we figure that the way to learn from it is to accept it first. Then we will learn from it instead of judging it.

The wisdom of God can't be proved like math. 2 + 2 = 4, as Liberty liked to say! :p

We can say it's insulting to divorced women to insist on this "hard saying". But if you ask my wife, she will say that it is insulting to her to be regarded as something that can be traded in for a better model if things get tough. And if you ask my son, he'd be appalled at the idea that it would be okay for me to link up with someone else and put aside his mother.

Well, all I can do is try to help you understand how we think, that people can honestly see it differently from you.

You look at this teaching and you say, "Surely this is ridiculous! This is why I am sure Islam is true and this Christianity is a distortion. I am in the right place!"

But I look at this teaching and I feel, "This is beautiful and profound. As the Bible says 'the foolishness of God is wiser than men'. This proves to me that Catholicism is true: it catches something perfect and wonderful that men thinking 'normally' miss again and again. I could NEVER even dream of trading it in for a religion that says divorce and remarriage is okay. I could never be a Muslim. I am in the right place."

What can we do? We cannot overcome this, at least not easily.

But as you say, we believe in One God and, though Ice Tea may tell you otherwise, I think He is the same one. And that makes a strong link of brotherhood between us.

That is the start of a long and difficult road, but it is a start, a Common Word. And even though the meeting of minds and the unity of brothers can seem a long way off, I take heart from the words of Jesus: "With men it is impossible; but nothing is impossible with God."

Maybe you will think that those words might be true, even if you don't accept others. :)

(And BTW, I love talking with you too. I hope we will meet someday.)

Thats not OK. You need to understand that its not a game to marry multiple times and there are guidelines for them, and yes I a agree that many men take advantage of this here in the Islamic world.

Either way, as I said, this is a huge topic and needs a lot of discussion, I suggest you open another thread, but first search for old ones and you will surely find the answers, or at least search some of the online Islamic sites for multiple marriage related issues.

I as a Muslims never think of marrying more than once because I simply can't marry multiple times even if I want to, simply because I know I won't be able to satisfy the restrictions put by Islam. However, I do see the wisdom behind this, and btw way, multiple marriage is an excellent tool to demolish the sick and cheap practice of adultery in society :)


Sadly I see younger people today treating marriage as if it is a game or almost like let's play house. I cannot see how marriage can be viewed in such a light and it should never be viewed in such an offhanded way. I take marriage very seriously. I think sometimes though people who do live together have done so for a variety of reasons and let love and sometimes lust take over. In the end I feel that marriage is the way it should be. Especially when children are brought into the picture the couple should be married. 1. Because of the moral laws and 2. Legally. I think children sometimes get the short end of the stick in divorces and in being illegitimate.

I see multiple marriages as being logical back during Mohammad's time but not today. If we had to pick and choose in today's current environment and I was forced to pick a place where multiple marriages should be seen as the norm I would say in places like Iraq or Palestine where the population is being wiped out but once that population stablizes itself I don't see the point of having multiple marriages. The key for multiple marriages I think is because there is a severe depletion in the population and because not enough men are around for marriages and thus to help stablize the population the multiple marriages should be allowed. But in peaceful affluent societies such as Saudi, Oman, Qatar, Baharain and other stable regions then WHY is there a need for this?

Anyway, I agree, marriage is not a game and I agree with Jeff, marriage should be seen as something holy.

Not quite. He said "think not that I came to abolish the Law and the Prophets".
Matthew 5: 17-18.

Jesus said in the same place that He came to fulfill it.

That means to sum it up and bring it to completion.

You have to put the two together. And you have to read it in light of His other sayings as well.

Including His sayings about divorce. "Because of your hardness of heart. But it was not so from the beginning."

fulfull it means practice it, otherwise he would not say think not that I came to abolish the Law. If you stop it then it means you abolish it.

From this one can see that the discussion of divorce presumes remarriage, that's the problem. It's a problem because the two are joined not just by law, but are actully made "one flesh" by God. That means in His eyes, they have become fused irrevocably into a unity.

The reason why divorce and remarriage causes adultery is because divorce doesn't change the true state of things. When you get a divorce, you are still "one flesh" with your ex-wife. You are still one, whatever the piece of paper says.



Even in the hereafter they will remain "one flesh"?

I don't see why divorce doesn't change the true state of things, they were a couple then each of them went to another direction after divorce.

Just to be frank I didn’t read everything I read some of Thalia’s early replies and some of Jeff’s replies…

A question…

So in the Catholic faith, a marriage that is established on the honest intentions of the man and the woman to live together for the rest of their life is a valid marriage and divorce is forbidden no matter what…am I right?

If I am….don’t you think things may change down the road and life becomes hard to live together…is there a mechanism to rectify the situation or are the couple expected to sacrifice and bear with it to avoid committing the sin of divorce according to the catholic faith?

I've also asked a question but no answer yet.

What Christians will gain if their marraige is recognized by the church?

What Christians will gain if their marraige is recognized by the church?

To them is like Wali and wintnesses for us. Islam encourages celebrating the marriage so that people know the couple are legally married, or else it would be chaotic, any two can sleep together and claim marriage if found out. So I guess the same concept for them, mechanism to legalize coupling.

fulfull it means practice it, otherwise he would not say think not that I came to abolish the Law. If you stop it then it means you abolish it.


No, it means that it's purpose has been served and that it has come to fruition.

The Law is the Seed; Christ Himself is the Fruit.

He meant to practice it deeply and as a whole, which means to get beyond the mere legalistic prescriptions and to go now for the Purpose of the Torah...Perfection and Redemption in Jesus Christ.

You can't make sense out of the teachings about adultery, divorce, keeping the Sabbath, preserving chastity and virginity without marrying without this understanding.

"Fulfilment" is the word you use when you make a Promise. This is why He mentions the Prophets: they brought the promise of God about the coming of Messiah. And the Law too was a Promise of something bigger...a Fruit in which the Seed still has a place and never disappears, but in which its meaning is transformed. "I made a promise and I fulfilled it."

Christ brings something New, which eclipses the Old by transforming it, not abolishing it:

"No one puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved. No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’"

Luke 5: 37-38.

And that is why He teaches that one need not always stone adulteresses... only the one who is without sin can do so.

And that is why He teaches that it is unnecessary to strictly observe the Sabbath. The Law is made for us. It serves us; we don't serve it:

" 27
Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
28
That is why the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath."

Mark 2: 27-28.

Jesus, the Son of Man, is ABOVE the Law. He is Lord of it. Even of the Sabbath.

Another clue about Who He is... :)

Even in the hereafter they will remain "one flesh"?

I don't see why divorce doesn't change the true state of things, they were a couple then each of them went to another direction after divorce.

In the hereafter, we will all be changed utterly into something very different. We will have a Bodies that are completely transformed and changed. We can only imagine what it is like.

No, there is no propagation of children in eternity and the meaning and purpose of marriage will have been served.

Even in heaven, there will be no divorce and remarriage either because the meaning of marriage will have been fulfilled and we will have gone beyond it. But we will carry our earthly lives--including our marriages--with us like heirlooms.

But on earth, we are one Flesh and men cannot put that apart with bills of divorce. Men cannot put apart what God has joined.

Just to be frank I didn’t read everything I read some of Thalia’s early replies and some of Jeff’s replies…

A question…

So in the Catholic faith, a marriage that is established on the honest intentions of the man and the woman to live together for the rest of their life is a valid marriage and divorce is forbidden no matter what…am I right?

If I am….don’t you think things may change down the road and life becomes hard to live together…is there a mechanism to rectify the situation or are the couple expected to sacrifice and bear with it to avoid committing the sin of divorce according to the catholic faith?

Marriage is marriage. If you have trouble with your son, he is still your son. If you have trouble with your husband, he is still your husband.

Like I said, that can bring tragedy sometimes.

But so can the opposite.

For every marriage in which someone suffers because of having a bad partner, there are ten in which people suffer because of having their spouse abandon them. Or that's how it seems to me.

The solution is to love more and to trust God.

We don't look at marriage as a "situation" to be "rectified". We look at it as a Sacrament, a spiritual reality that we cannot change.

If I am One with someone, then I am One. That is all there is to it.

Thanks Jeff...I lerant something...
I think that is an essential part about a faith and I find myself so ignorant learning these things now…

I've also asked a question but no answer yet.

What Christians will gain if their marraige is recognized by the church?

I don't understand the question.

A sacramental marriage for a Catholic is a marriage made AS a Catholic and in the community, blessed and acknowledged by it.

If a Catholic marries outside the Church, it is not a sacramental marriage.

I can't judge what people do under the pressures of life. And I can't make decisions for other people about what to believe. We all fall short of what God expects of us in many ways. We have Muslims here who struggle with what they should believe as Muslims. And some Catholic struggle with their beliefs too. I can't be their police nor do I want to. Nor can I claim to be better than they are. "Oh, Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief" as the Centurion said to Christ.

God can bring good out of something imperfect and He often does. Sometimes people who marry outside of the Church later marry in it. That is a gain since you have come back into full communion with the Church.

Is that what you are asking?

Thanks Jeff...I lerant something...
I think that is an essential part about a faith and I find myself so ignorant learning these things now…

Thanks, I learn from you too. Your posts about your own family background touched me and taught me something too.

Open hearts, the Lord will bless! :)

I don't understand the question.

A sacramental marriage for a Catholic is a marriage made AS a Catholic and in the community, blessed and acknowledged by it.

If a Catholic marries outside the Church, it is not a sacramental marriage.

I can't judge what people do under the pressures of life. And I can't make decisions for other people about what to believe. We all fall short of what God expects of us in many ways. We have Muslims here who struggle with what they should believe as Muslims. And some Catholic struggle with their beliefs too. I can't be their police nor do I want to. Nor can I claim to be better than they are. "Oh, Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief" as the Centurion said to Christ.

God can bring good out of something imperfect and He often does. Sometimes people who marry outside of the Church later marry in it. That is a gain since you have come back into full communion with the Church.

Is that what you are asking?

Yes, that is what I'm asking.

So if the marraige is not acknowledged by the chruch it means they can divorce, right?

And what is the punishment if a husband divorced his wife?

Don't you think the church is controlling people personal life by such laws and restrictions thus it will drive people away from the church and convert to Islam?

In the hereafter, we will all be changed utterly into something very different. We will have a Bodies that are completely transformed and changed. We can only imagine what it is like.

No, there is no propagation of children in eternity and the meaning and purpose of marriage will have been served.

Even in heaven, there will be no divorce and remarriage either because the meaning of marriage will have been fulfilled and we will have gone beyond it. But we will carry our earthly lives--including our marriages--with us like heirlooms.
.

Interesting, any quotes from the Bible about this?

So according to Christianity you can't have children in the hereafter.

How about if the person is not married in this life, does this means he can't get married in heaven?

I am sure you have noticed many posts have been deleted due not related to the topic OR being attacking !

I hope you can have a good discussion without the need to attack each other :bored:

Further similar posts will be deleted as well !

To them is like Wali and wintnesses for us. Islam encourages celebrating the marriage so that people know the couple are legally married, or else it would be chaotic, any two can sleep together and claim marriage if found out. So I guess the same concept for them, mechanism to legalize coupling.

No. Our concept of marriage is very different from theirs. To us, a marriage is a civil contract between two parties, which both have rights and obligations, and that need witnesses, as any other civil contract. That is why it is easy for us to get a divorce, the dissolution of a marriage contract, if one of the parties is not fulfilling their side of the contract. This means that if a man is not maintaining his wife financially or not fulfilling her sexually, she can get her divorce easily, since he is not fulfilling his side of the contract. There is no such thing as being forced to stay in a marriage if one party is not fulfilling their obligations. A marriage contract for us is very similar to the pre-nuptial and nuptial agreements that the big Hollywood stars have nowadays, where each party can place their terms and conditions (i.e. from property, to divorce, to polygamy). This is also why men are allowed to have more than one wife, because they are allowed to 'contract' another civil marriage. Although a woman can put as her condition in the marriage contract, that he will relinquish this right and will be monogamous to her. Plus, in Islam, any marriage is recognized, even if the marriage is a Chrisitian, Jewish, Hindu, etc. That means if a non-Muslim couple covert to Islam they do not need to get married under Islamic law, their marriage contract is seen to be valid. Plus, under an Islamic marriage, a couple can get either, an annulment or a divorce. If a woman gets forced into the marriage, for example, the marriage is annulled since she is not viewed to have fully consented to the marriage. If a couple after some years decide they have irreconcilable differences, they get a divorce.

The Catholics have a very different notion of what a marriage is, it is a holy sacrament which needs to take place in the Catholic Church, it is not just a civil contract, where the couple are bound to that marriage until death (unless they get it annulled, but they cannot get a divorce).

Jeff we could go on for ever, just tell me, do you believe that divorced women tend to commit adultery?

Jeff we could go on for ever, just tell me, do you believe that divorced women tend to commit adultery?
Adultery according to who? And what is a divorced woman? A woman who is with no one? A woman who got re-married civilly?

Seriously sting. Have you been reading? At all?

I'm not sure what you mean by adultery you see. For some it means being unfaithful to your husband. You could be married simply by civil law ONLY.

To a catholic, it could mean being with anyone else as long as your marriage is still recognised.

To muslims it could mean having a relationship out of marriage. But then you'll argue that you can have more, younger wives, like once every ten or so years to keep you satisfied.. and then.. I'm not sure where the whole concept of muta'a fits in all this. Going off with another woman for a short while to satisfy them lusty urges..
In your part of the world, it seems to me that it certainly is a man's world. And everything seems pretty much fixed for the purpose of convenience. I pity the women though. They kinda get a pretty sour deal. ;)

Jeff we could go on for ever, just tell me, do you believe that divorced women tend to commit adultery?

Oh, I see what the problem is...

You are misunderstanding...

The idea is not this:

"If a women gets divorced, then she will tend to sleep with a lot of men she's not married to."


The idea is this:

"If a man and woman get 'divorced' and 'remarried', it's a human name. But in God's eyes, people who divorce are still really married to each other. If John sleeps with Susan while he is married to Jane, he has committed adultery. If John divorces Jane and then marries Susan, he will say and the world will say, 'Susan is my wife'."

"But Susan is NOT his wife in God's eyes. Jane is still his wife. So when he sleeps with Susan, he is sleeping with a woman not his wife and committing adultery. He is committing adultery with Susan because she is not his wife. Jane is his wife."

You have to understand: the idea is not just that divorce and remarriage is wrong. It's that it is ineffective.

People say, "I divorced and remarried." God says, "No, you tried. But I don't recognize any such thing. Your wife is still your wife. Your husband is still your husband. This new 'wife' is just a partner with whom you are committing adultery."

You have to grasp this in order to understand the teaching.

I really like how you put this Jeff. Nice examples and how I believe also.

Interesting, any quotes from the Bible about this?

So according to Christianity you can't have children in the hereafter.

How about if the person is not married in this life, does this means he can't get married in heaven?

18
Some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him and put this question to him,
19
saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us, 'If someone's brother dies, leaving a wife but no child, his brother must take the wife and raise up descendants for his brother.'
20
Now there were seven brothers. The first married a woman and died, leaving no descendants.
21
So the second married her and died, leaving no descendants, and the third likewise.
22
And the seven left no descendants. Last of all the woman also died.
23
At the resurrection (when they arise) whose wife will she be? For all seven had been married to her."
24
Jesus said to them, "Are you not misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God?
25
When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven."

Mark 12: 18-25.

Yes, that is what I'm asking.

So if the marraige is not acknowledged by the chruch it means they can divorce, right?

And what is the punishment if a husband divorced his wife?

Don't you think the church is controlling people personal life by such laws and restrictions thus it will drive people away from the church and convert to Islam?

There is no "punishment" for divorce.

But if you divorce and remarry, you cannot receive communion.

We don't have a "police system" for this, though. If people receive communion anyway, well, it's going to be up to them to square it with their consciences.

I asked my son your last question. "Would you like to become a Muslim because the Church controls your personal life by asking you to marry at church rather than just go off on your own?"

He looked at me like I was nuts. "How is that 'controlling my life'?", he wanted to know. "Just because I am supposed to get married at church?"

I don't think he's interested in becoming a Muslim yet. ;)

But seriously, we live in a very individualistic age. Some people resent pretty much anything that other people tell them to do and feel they should follow their own ideas about all religious things.

Some Catholics do that. Some Muslims do that.

And some people are inspired by the idea that God has requirements that help them make sense out of life and convert TO Catholicism ... or sometimes to Islam ... largely because of that.

Most Catholics who cease to be Catholics seem to me either to just stop practicing any religion and lapse or go off to join a Protestant church. There are two active converts from the Church to Islam here on Sabla you could ask.

I know two other Catholics who became Muslim and then returned to Catholicism.

I don't think that sort of thing plays a major role.

But you could go to some Catholic blogs and ask people if they feel like becoming Muslim because the Church has requirements about marriage. You might get some interesting responses! I'll give you some links if you like...

Make duah among the Catholics! Now, the responses you get won't always be as sweet tempered as mine! :p But you'll learn a lot and I think it would be good for you...if you tough it out.

Look: I come from a broken home. So does my wife.

Two of our best friends also do.

What we got out of it is: Divorce is bad, bad news. Marriage is good and necessary and permanent. And who, out of all the world, is saying this?

The Catholic Church.

We aren't looking for "freedom to get divorced" thank you. Our parents' generation went to this Promised Land and we are still recovering. We don't want to look in our kids' eyes and tell them that Mom and Dad are getting a divorce because we want "personal freedom" since "things aren't working out".

We'll just make things work out, thanks.

All of this is part of what made us believe in Holy Mother Church. And part of what makes us convinced to stay...

People say, "I divorced and remarried." God says, "No, you tried. But I don't recognize any such thing. Your wife is still your wife. Your husband is still your husband. This new 'wife' is just a partner with whom you are committing adultery."



God will not say such thing, because God is fair and just. Anyone can find and share the happiness with whom he wish, this is kind of restriction and controlling your personal life. It is like you don't have the freedom once you are married.

Anyway, how come their is no punishment for adultry?

There is no "punishment" for divorce.

I'm not sure what you mean by adultery you see. For some it means being unfaithful to your husband. You could be married simply by civil law ONLY.

To a catholic, it could mean being with anyone else as long as your marriage is still recognised.



Separation of church and state.

Oh, I see what the problem is...

You are misunderstanding...

The idea is not this:

"If a women gets divorced, then she will tend to sleep with a lot of men she's not married to."


The idea is this:

"If a man and woman get 'divorced' and 'remarried', it's a human name. But in God's eyes, people who divorce are still really married to each other. If John sleeps with Susan while he is married to Jane, he has committed adultery. If John divorces Jane and then marries Susan, he will say and the world will say, 'Susan is my wife'."

"But Susan is NOT his wife in God's eyes. Jane is still his wife. So when he sleeps with Susan, he is sleeping with a woman not his wife and committing adultery. He is committing adultery with Susan because she is not his wife. Jane is his wife."

You have to understand: the idea is not just that divorce and remarriage is wrong. It's that it is ineffective.

People say, "I divorced and remarried." God says, "No, you tried. But I don't recognize any such thing. Your wife is still your wife. Your husband is still your husband. This new 'wife' is just a partner with whom you are committing adultery."

You have to grasp this in order to understand the teaching.

OK I was confused, but what I understand now makes things worst doesn't? Imagine this case:

"Susan gets divorce from her first husband John who has been abusing her and ruining her life, along with her kids perhaps, and through the judicial system she gets a divorce. Susan is still in her early 30s and sexually active!

What she tend to commit adultery then, as sex is a human need, or would she commit adultery if she gets married to Jeff, who is a kind hearted gentleman?"

What am trying to say is that if one remarries, he/she is not likely to have sex with partners who they are not married to. But of course, as you explained, in Christianity even if she remarries, she is committing adultery :(!

Lets sum it up with a simple hypothetical case scenario:

"You daughter marries a gentleman, who after a couple of years starts abusing her or even hitting her. Even worst, destroying your 2 year old grandchild's life :angry:

What choices will she have?

A. Suffer, and make her child suffer, for the rest of their lives?

B. Get a divorce, and never have sex again, and simply kill this human need?

C. Get a divorce, start a new life, and marry another man who treats her the way she deserves?"

What you fail to accept my friend Jeff is that many times all those romantic vows you read out don't go well, and this is much more common than you think. Don't you watch Oprah? :p

God will not say such thing, because God is fair and just. Anyone can find and share the happiness with whom he wish, this is kind of restriction and controlling your personal life. It is like you don't have the freedom once you are married.

Anyway, how come their is no punishment for adultry?

Well, part of the reason is what you mentioned: the separation of Church and state. The Church does not prescribe civil penalties.

There is no rule saying a state CANNOT punish adultery. But no rule saying it must either.

And because Our Lord's example is always before our eyes, we are usually reluctant to "cast the first stone" since we are not without sin.

But if I commit ANY mortal sin--adultery included--I would have to repent and confess my sin before I returned to communion. That rule is only enforced by my own conscience, but it is a rule nevertheless.

And if I wished to see God in the afterlife and not the Other Fella, I would have to repent and confess all my mortal sins before I died.

A catholic man or woman should repent daily from the sin of adultry if they divorce, does this makes sense to you Jeff?

It is like he is committing a countinous sin while repent from it. Normally if you want to repent you need to stop the sin first and not come back to it again, but how this can be done if a catholic person divorced his wife?

my view of the topic will be to disagree.
man who dumps his gf after committing adultry with her, that's what makes her an adultress or it MIGHT, depends on the girl really.

But if I commit ANY mortal sin--adultery included--I would have to repent and confess my sin before I returned to communion. That rule is only enforced by my own conscience, but it is a rule nevertheless.

And if I wished to see God in the afterlife and not the Other Fella, I would have to repent and confess all my mortal sins before I died.

Jeff, but how does this effect the whole idea of Jesus sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind before or after him?

Im a little confused here...:os I thought the topic was does divorce make a woman an adultress? Did I miss something? Pages and pages of scripture, debate about whos right and whos wrong, calling an entire religion amoral.... Wow ppl, when you get up that high on your lil horse you really need to take care that you dont fall and break your neck. :( For da Christians: Judge not lest thee be judged and for da Muslims : Those who do not mercy to others shall not be shown by Allah on the day of judgement.

Anyyyyyway, I dont think divorce (in any religion) makes a woman an adultress. How could it? Are women that desperate for a lil nooky? And what about men? How come it doesnt say men? BTW I agree that the Catholic church needs some work and a lil dose of reality but lets not confuse the Church with the religion nor confuse the practices of the followers with the actual teachings of the religion. I dont think either the Christians nor the Muslims really want to go down that road..... could be a lil embarresing for us all :)

If I understand correctly an annulment is just a "Catholic divorce" and it means the marraige never existed.

What does an annulment makes the children, if it means the marraige never existed?

What is the statistics of the annulment?

in today's Christian world.

I come from Egypt.
We have this HUGE population of Copts, probably as big as the entire population of Oman at the moment.
They don't go by 'boyfriend-girlfriend' relationships. Quite a big chunk of Christians, won't you think? Not to mention all the others around the world who are against pre-marital sex.

Just felt like throwing in my $0.2

Thanks threadlike it is nice to see that there are people on here who don't stereotype. Quite refreshing for this gal on a bright Wednesday morning. :) :)

I heard that some Copts convert to Islam so they can divorce but then not allowed to remarry by the church when returned back to their previous faith.

^Course they aren't.
What is religion, some child's play?
You don't change and re-change in a minute and expect everybody to go along with that. The Coptic Church itself had declared several times that it is very strict in allowing anybody new in...

I heard that some Copts convert to Islam so they can divorce but then not allowed to remarry by the church when returned back to their previous faith.

Well, that's not true, because becoming a Muslim doesn't change the fact that you are still married to your wife.

If I become a Muslim and divorce my wife, God will still consider me married.

And if I get divorced from her while I am a Muslim, God will still consider me married.

So, the "conversion trick" wouldn't work.

You can't fool God! :p

^Course they aren't.
What is religion, some child's play?
You don't change and re-change in a minute and expect everybody to go along with that. The Coptic Church itself had declared several times that it is very strict in allowing anybody new in...

It means these Christians are having problem with the divorce issue as they are not allowed to divorce. So they look for a solution and conver to Islam.

^Perhaps.
But do you think it's 'noble' to convert to Islam and then re-convert again? I find it completely dishonoring both religions, really.
As Jeff said, you can't fool God. He knows what's in your heart.

Well, that's not true, because becoming a Muslim doesn't change the fact that you are still married to your wife.

If I become a Muslim and divorce my wife, God will still consider me married.

And if I get divorced from her while I am a Muslim, God will still consider me married.

So, the "conversion trick" wouldn't work.

You can't fool God! :p

God doesn't want to torture you Jeff, looks like you don't have any freedom if that is the case.

Any answer to these questions:

What does an annulment makes the children, if it means the marraige never existed?

What is the statistics of the annulment?

^Perhaps.
But do you think it's 'noble' to convert to Islam and then re-convert again? I find it completely dishonoring both religions, really.
As Jeff said, you can't fool God. He knows what's in your heart.

They are fooling the chruch not God.

Ay chihuahua! :(

LOOOL
Seriously IceTea, you're one of the funniest people I ever met.
They're only fooling themselves...See? That's the whole point.

If I understand correctly an annulment is just a "Catholic divorce" and it means the marraige never existed.

What does an annulment makes the children, if it means the marraige never existed?

What is the statistics of the annulment?

Well, remember what Sophis told you?

Muslims believe that marriage is just a contract. You can just cancel the contract.

Catholics believe marriage is a sacrament, that it creates a real unbreakable bond between persons in God's eyes. It makes an interior spiritual change.

Let me give you an easy example of annulment.

Remember, if you get divorced and remarried, you are still really married to your first wife in God's eyes?

When you married your second wife, it LOOKED like a marriage.

But: there was an IMPEDIMENT. Something that stopped you from achieving your goal.

That's why Jesus says when you marry the second one, it's adultery. The first one is really your wife. The second one isn't.

So: Suppose you are Catholic. You marry a woman in the Church.

But it turns out that she was married before and never told you. And her "first husband" is still alive.

Now you tell me: Was the second marriage real?

Of course not! That's the whole point!

Do you need a "divorce" from your "second wife"?

Of course not. You were never really married to her in the first place.

So, you get a "declaration of nullity" from the Church: an "annulment".

That doesn't give you a divorce. It's a declaration that you were never married in the first place.

Suppose your mother gives you up for adoption. And then years later, you meet this woman and marry her.

Are you married?

Well, what do Muslims say? I don't know. Maybe you would say it's haram but it's still a real marriage.

But we say that mothers and sons are incapable of marriage. You can say the words and make the promises, but nothing happens. There's an IMPEDIMENT to marriage.

The marriage was not genuine. So you get an annulment.

That's the basic idea.

That means if the church gave annulment and there are kids they will be illegal kids, right?

I think the whole process makes Christians leave Christianity because it's against your freedom in life.

That means if the church gave annulment and there are kids they will be illegal kids, right?

I think the whole process makes Christians leave Christianity because it's against your freedom in life.

No, they are not counted as illegal since the attempted marriage was in good faith.

In both canon and civil law, the offspring of putative marriages are legitimate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimacy

Okay, well, like I suggest, give it a shot! :p

Go around and invite us and see if we think we are "unfree"!

It all depends on whether you see God as an "oppressor" or not.

If you don't, then trying to follow Him probably won't seem oppressive, whether it is Catholic principles or Muslim ones.

How come not illegal if the marraige never existed?

Any idea about the annulment statistics in the US for example?

Ah jeff..... Jesus said? Must have missed that at catechism. Perhaps he did although i seriously doubt it. If you read the whole bible you'll find that not only did they practice polygamy but they also divorced their wives. blows the catholic churches condemnation of both these practices right out the water doesnt it?

That means if the church gave annulment and there are kids they will be illegal kids, right?

I think the whole process makes Christians leave Christianity because it's against your freedom in life.
Wallahi you are obsessed :os

Annullment is given rarely, and it must be proved that [specially in case of kids, which means marriage was consummed] both husband and wife were mentally immature and didn't know what they were doing
There is no problem for the kids since in most countries Church and State are two separate things, hence they remain perfectly regular and registered with local and national authorities
Your last statement is completely incorrect : is in Islam that faith and state are completely bond together, which is why the believer who "hears and obeys" without finding a logic in it, will feel oppressed
That's why you see most Christians on this board to find difficult to understand the importance of following all the little daily rules we have
Christianity gives the guidelines but leaves them more freedom of choice

How come not illegal if the marraige never existed?

Any idea about the annulment statistics in the US for example?

It's a question of law, that's all. Neither Church law nor civil law has ever regarded such kids as illegitimate.

The US has had a very high annulment rate, though it is starting to decline.

A lot of young Catholics got married in the sixties and seventies without any idea of what a marriage was. If you get married, for example, with the idea that you are not going to have any children, the marriage is invalid. Or if you get married thinking that you will get a divorce if the marriage doesn't work out, the marriage is invalid. Such marriages will be annulled. And unfortunately, with the societal upheavals in the last few decades, there were not a few of them.

But there is a real improvement in marriage preparation now for young Catholics.

[QUOTE=Jeff;1056646]Well, remember what Sophis told you?

Muslims believe that marriage is just a contract. You can just cancel the contract.

Catholics believe marriage is a sacrament, that it creates a real unbreakable bond between persons in God's eyes. It makes an interior spiritual change.


Actually the Catholics believe it is a covenant not a sacrament:

"Canon 1055 of the Code of Canon Law reads as follows: The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of their entire life, which is ordered by its own nature to the good of the spouses and to the procreation and upbringing of offspring, has been raised, between the baptized, to the dignity of sacrament by Christ the Lord. The Catechism of the Catholic Church reiterates this teaching in its exposition of the Sacrament of Matrimony. 3"

Islam defines marriage as much more than a contract! "The Quran specifically refers to marriage as "mithaqun Ghalithun,". Which means "a strong agreement""covenant". Sound familiar?

Either way the Catholic position on divorce is a man made decision it is not based on the word of God but on the decision made by the Church decades ago.

Sorry Jeff:inno:

Ah jeff..... Jesus said? Must have missed that at catechism. Perhaps he did although i seriously doubt it. If you read the whole bible you'll find that not only did they practice polygamy but they also divorced their wives. blows the catholic churches condemnation of both these practices right out the water doesnt it?

What that Jesus said did you miss at the catechism?

That divorce was the same as adultery? Well, you can see the quotations from Scripture above. Of course, if you think that the Bible is corrupted, you may not believe He said it. :)

When Jesus was asked about divorce, His questioners asked Him, "Why then did Moses allow a bill of divorce?"

He answer, "Because of your hardness of hearts. But it was not so from the beginning."

There was some polygamy practiced before the time that the Law was given to Moses. But there are no provisions in the Torah for marrying more than one wife. Mankind was slowly recovering from the Fall and God was gradually revealing Himself and His teachings to mankind.

Muslims believe that God can make a law and then tighten or narrow it right? This is what is behind the notion of abrogation.

Well, we believe that God "made allowances" for mankind in this matter. But the original plan for mankind, now restored in Christ, is one man, one woman until death.

Nice to have you in the discussion, hijabi! :)

We believe it is part of the 7 Sacraments:

From Pope John Paul II explaining marriage and the sacraments:


MATRIMONY
In a marriage a man and a woman pledge themselves to one another in an unbreakable alliance of total mutual self-giving. A total union of love.

Love that is not a passing emotion or temporary infatuation, but a responsible and free decision to bind oneself completely, "in good times and in bad," to one's partner. It is the gift of oneself to the other.

It is a love to be proclaimed before the eyes of the whole world. It is unconditional. To be capable of such love calls for careful preparation from early childhood to wedding day. It requires the constant support of Church and society throughout its development.

The love of husband and wife in God's plan leads beyond itself and new life is generated, a family is born. The family is a community of love and life, a home in which children are guided to maturity.

Marriage is a holy sacrament. Those baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus are married in his name also. Their love is a sharing in the love of God. He is its source. The marriages of Christian couples, today renewed and blessed, are images on earth of the wonder of God, the loving, life-giving communion of Three Persons in one God, and of God's covenant in Christ, with the Church. Christian marriage is a sacrament of salvation. It is the pathway to holiness for all members of a family.

With all my heart, therefore, I urge that your homes be centers of prayer; homes where families are at ease in the presence of God; homes to which others are invited to share hospitality, prayer and the praise of God: "With gratitude in your hearts sing psalms and hymns and inspired songs to God; and never say or do anything except in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through him" (Col. 3,16-17).

In your country, there are many marriages between Catholics and other baptized Christians. Sometimes these couples experience special difficulties. To these families I say: You live in your marriage the hopes and difficulties of the path to Christian unity. Express that hope in prayer together, in the unity of love. Together invite the Holy Spirit of love into your hearts and into your homes. He will help you to grow in trust and understanding.

Brothers and sisters, "May the peace of Christ reign in your hearts....Let the message of Christ, in all its richness, find a home with you" (Col. 3,15-16).


http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2SEVEN.htm

^^^ Hijabi, I meant legally (or in the eyes of Islamic law) it is a civil contract. But obviously as you mentioned its not a contract that should be gotten out of lightly, since our Prophet :PBUH: said that "the most abominable thing in the eyes of God, which is halal, is divorce". Ideally, it should be the last resort taken when relations become unbearable between the two parties.

In 2002 30 968 annulments were granted in US. Wow! thats an awful lot of incest or lying women isnt it? cmon the whole annulment vs divorce thing is just semantics. Word games

It's a question of law, that's all. Neither Church law nor civil law has ever regarded such kids as illegitimate.

But you said that the couple committing adultry so how come the kids will not be illegal?


The US has had a very high annulment rate, though it is starting to decline.

maybe it started to decline because not many people go to the church to get married.

Is the annulment law made by the church?

[QUOTE=Jeff;1056646]Well, remember what Sophis told you?

Muslims believe that marriage is just a contract. You can just cancel the contract.

Catholics believe marriage is a sacrament, that it creates a real unbreakable bond between persons in God's eyes. It makes an interior spiritual change.


Actually the Catholics believe it is a covenant not a sacrament:

"Canon 1055 of the Code of Canon Law reads as follows: The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of their entire life, which is ordered by its own nature to the good of the spouses and to the procreation and upbringing of offspring, has been raised, between the baptized, to the dignity of sacrament by Christ the Lord. The Catechism of the Catholic Church reiterates this teaching in its exposition of the Sacrament of Matrimony. 3"

Islam defines marriage as much more than a contract! "The Quran specifically refers to marriage as "mithaqun Ghalithun,". Which means "a strong agreement""covenant". Sound familiar?

Either way the Catholic position on divorce is a man made decision it is not based on the word of God but on the decision made by the Church decades ago.

Sorry Jeff:inno:


Well, I can't say for sure what Muslims believe about marriage and contract. I am paraphrasing Sophis who is herself a Muslim and one who has studied Muslim law quite a bit. You can see her comments above.

I CAN say that you are wrong about Catholic teaching on marriage. In fact if you look at your own quotation you will see that it says marriage is a sacrament:

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church reiterates this teaching in its exposition of the Sacrament of Matrimony."

Yes, marriage is ALSO a covenant, which means an exchange of promises or vows. This IS a contract, in the sense of an exchange of obligations. But it is not MERELY a contract. In fact, that is the substance of the sacrament, like pouring water is the substance of the sacrament of baptism.

If you go here, you will see a page from the Catholic Catechism, which is as you know our official book of doctrine for the world. The page refers to the Seven Sacraments. If you scroll down, you will see that Chapter Three, Article Seven is titled "The Sacrament of Matrimony".

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/part2_2.html

And here is how the section on the Sacrament of Matrimony begins:

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic teaching on divorce is based on the Biblical injunction of Our Lord. The teaching appears several times in Scripture, but here is one citation:

2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
3 "What did Moses command you?" he replied.
4 They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
5 "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.
6 "But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.'
7 `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."


Mark 10: 2-12.

I don't want you to feel that I am dissing Muslim marriages. I have seen many beautiful ones!

And I quite see that if you believe that the Scriptures have been tampered with that you might not believe in Jesus' saying above.

But we believe they are genuine and so it is because we believe that teaching is from Our Lord that we accept it.

In 2002 30 968 annulments were granted in US. Wow! thats an awful lot of incest or lying women isnt it? cmon the whole annulment vs divorce thing is just semantics. Word games

Quite a large number! But it's not semantics and word games.

It's an attempt to find out if the people involved were really committed to a marriage and understood what it was.

It doesn't usually involve incest or lying women. As I said, it usually involves factors that affect the understanding of the parties originally about what marriage was in the first place.

We believe it is part of the 7 Sacraments:

From Pope John Paul II explaining marriage and the sacraments:

[B]
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2SEVEN.htm

Marianna, you said it! You believe in the Popes interpretation. A man.
Jeff, i agree that over time God has made some adjustments as man has fallen away from him, but my question is Does the church have the right to impose the will of God? Sure in Islam we impose Shariah law but thats not the same thing. The church does not impose the Christian laws of punishment anymore, why impose this?

Shouldn't you already know that one, Hijabi ?

After all, you were supposedly a Catholic at one time weren't you ?

But you said that the couple committing adultry so how come the kids will not be illegal?



maybe it started to decline because not many people go to the church to get married.

Is the annulment law made by the church?

Well, illegitimacy IS a manmade legal concept. In God's eyes, children are children and they are all beloved creatures of his.

We are talking about the children of marriages that were annulled. In annulled marriages, the parents (or at least one of them) were in good faith when they married.

So the children are not penalized.

But illegitimacy as a stigma or legal inhibition for children has little effect any more. The concept has lost most of its imporatance since the children are NEVER at fault....

Annulment law per se is made by the Church. But the principle comes from God and nature.

Men use justice to apply God's laws. Sometimes they do it well. Sometimes not so well. But the fact that human justice is involved in applying, for example, Shariah law doesn't mean that Shariah law itself is human. Right? It is divine law in the Muslim understanding.

I didn't say I believed in the Pope's "interpretation"...I was listing the sacraments and what they meant. Pope John Paul puts it in layman's terms so anyone can understand it. Thanks darlin'! :)

“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

—Deuteronomy 24:1-4

sounds like its allowed to me...:) Yeah yeah I know this was before Jesus, but although Islam has some progression in the Quoran there are no contradictions. the above scripture and matthew are direct contradictions dont you think?:angel:

Men use justice to apply God's laws. Sometimes they do it well. Sometimes not so well. But the fact that human justice is involved in applying, for example, Shariah law doesn't mean that Shariah law itself is human. Right? It is divine law in the Muslim understanding.

Yes, you're right. Islamic law is divided into two sections, Shariah and Fiqh (or jurisprudence). Shariah is God's law or absolute perfection. But since the interpretors of the Qur'an and Sunna are human, it is seen that Shariah law can never be attainable by human beings who are limited in their knowledge or intelligence. So the laws that we have today fall under fiqh, or jurisprudence, which as I said before changes according to the mathhab (school of law) and time and place. So like under the Ibadhi mathhab, a woman needs a guardian (wali) to finalize her marriage contract, while under the Hanafi mathhab a woman will contract her own marriage without the permission of a guardian. Islamic law has various forms :D but this is all in pursuit to attain God's pleasure or to attain the Shariah. Anyway who studies Islamic law will notice that when they study it at school or university, it will fall under the section named fiqh, not shariah.

What about saying "talak" three times....how is that used and what is involved? What happens to the woman after she divorces and how is she viewed?

Marianna, you said it! You believe in the Popes interpretation. A man.
Jeff, i agree that over time God has made some adjustments as man has fallen away from him, but my question is Does the church have the right to impose the will of God? Sure in Islam we impose Shariah law but thats not the same thing. The church does not impose the Christian laws of punishment anymore, why impose this?

Well, you make some interesting points! :)

The Church wouldn't have the right to impose God's laws if she were not founded by God and given certain powers. I guess what you think about it will all come down to what you think the Church is.

But we believe, on the basis of Scripture and Tradition, that the Church is the Body of Christ and the People of God with an apostolic gift to teach and rule given by Christ Himself.

I mean, in order to have Shariah, or any other kind of law, God has to have given some kind of authority to humans to implement His teachings. I'm not saying it's the same. I'm just saying that the underlying principle is the same.

The Church doesn't impose civil penalties like in the Old Testament for a variety of reasons. But judgments about divorce in Church Law are not primarily about PUNISHMENT.

They are about recognizing who is and who is not really married, who can be and who cannot be really married in God's eyes. They are about trying to discern the Truth.

If a couple who is divorced comes and asks to be remarried, the Church doesn't deny it because it wants to PUNISH them. It denies it because it has no POWER to marry them, under God's law. And it is not right to bless something that God forbids.

But if people commit sins, including divorce and remarriage, there isn't really much we can "do to them". We can't even stop them coming to communion if they insist. All we can do is to try to teach them the principles of right and wrong and teach them what marriage is all about.

Shouldn't you already know that one, Hijabi ?

After all, you were supposedly a Catholic at one time weren't you ?

Yup I do and thats why I left.

Nicely said Jeff. And youre right - the problem lies with the interpretation of what or who the church is. The crux of the matter if you will.

“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

—Deuteronomy 24:1-4

sounds like its allowed to me...:) Yeah yeah I know this was before Jesus, but although Islam has some progression in the Quoran there are no contradictions. the above scripture and matthew are direct contradictions dont you think?:angel:

Good points, as usual! :)

I don't think it's a "contradiction". I think that as Jesus Himself said, Moses allowed it. And with God's permission.

But that was God "looking the other way." He was making a compromise due to our "hardness of hearts" in Jesus' words.

But as He said, "It was not so in the beginning." And in Christ, the New Adam, all things must be restored and renewed.

Yup I do and thats why I left.

We are sorry to have lost you! :(

But God bless you in your spiritual journey...

Seems to me that what is being said is becoming repetitive...like talking in circles. Good job Jeff but I think for some here is falling on deaf ears.

Annulment law per se is made by the Church. But the principle comes from God and nature.

If the divorce is allowed then there will be no need to create the annulment law, this proves that the no divorce law is a man made law, otherwsie God laws are perfect and doesn't need modifications.


Men use justice to apply God's laws. Sometimes they do it well. Sometimes not so well. But the fact that human justice is involved in applying, for example, Shariah law doesn't mean that Shariah law itself is human. Right? It is divine law in the Muslim understanding.

Shariah law is drived from Quran and prophet sunnah.

Seems to me that what is being said is becoming repetitive...like talking in circles. Good job Jeff but I think for some here is falling on deaf ears.

Oh, I dunno. I believe in patience! :)

People frustrate each other and misunderstand each other. Sometimes things need to be said many times. Sometimes in different ways.

And sometimes we still don't agree!

But that's life...

Yup I do and thats why I left.

In that case why do you ask questions you already know the answers to ?

:rolleyes:

What about saying "talak" three times....how is that used and what is involved? What happens to the woman after she divorces and how is she viewed?

Well if a man says 'talak', it means that he has divorced his wife. HOWEVER, this divorce is not effective until the passage of three menstrual cycles (the iddah). This means that before the expiration of the time of iddah, the couple can reconcile and go back to one another without any formalities.

Although, most Muslim countries nowadays require a written confirmation that this took place to be sent to the register, before the divorce is considered to be valid.

Saying talak three times, mean that after three separate times of divorcing his wife (not in one go), the man cannot get remarried to his ex-wife again, unless she marries someone else and gets divorced or widowed.

Nicely said Jeff. And youre right - the problem lies with the interpretation of what or who the church is. The crux of the matter if you will.

Much like how the Quran is interpreted in completely different ways by different Muslims ?

yes jeff but sometimes people say things because they are being anal or cruel and I see that in some of the religious postings. I mean come on...after all the research the indepth explaining and not just on this posting.....either they tolerate the way we believe or just leave it alone.

Well if a man says 'talak', it means that he has divorced his wife. HOWEVER, this divorce is not effective until the passage of three menstrual cycles (the iddah). This means that before the expiration of the time of iddah, the couple can reconcile and go back to one another without any formalities.

Although, most Muslim countries nowadays require a written confirmation that this took place to be sent to the register, before the divorce is considered to be valid.

Saying talak three times, mean that after three separate times of divorcing his wife (not in one go), the man cannot get remarried to his ex-wife again, unless she marries someone else and gets divorced or widowed.

Thanks sophis. :)

If the divorce is allowed then there will be no need to create the annulment law, this proves that the no divorce law is a man made law, otherwsie God laws are perfect and doesn't need modifications.



Shariah law is drived from Quran and prophet sunnah.

Well, the first one I don't get. Maybe if you repeat it again in a different way.

It seems to me that just because something sometimes seems like real money but it's actually counterfeit, that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as real money. Annulment just distinguishes the counterfeit from the real.

But maybe I'm missing your meaning.

Okay, Shariah law is derived from the Quran and sunnah. That was my point. Annulment law is derived from God's principles in Scripture and Tradition.

yes jeff but sometimes people say things because they are being anal or cruel and I see that in some of the religious postings. I mean come on...after all the research the indepth explaining and not just on this posting.....either they tolerate the way we believe or just leave it alone.

I believe very much that we need to account for ourselves.

Some people, both Christians and Muslims, believe that it's wrong to challenge their religions.

But I think if we claim the Truth, we have a responsibility to account for ourselves. I think many of the Muslims here have a strong sense of the value of Truth in religion and I admire that. I'm not saying they all have the perfect attitude every time, but the basic idea of caring deeply about God's Truth is a good one and one that is inspiring.

And if people are tough with us, well, we just have to put up with it!

I don't want to judge them. I want to love them.

Saying talak three times, mean that after three separate times of divorcing his wife (not in one go), the man cannot get remarried to his ex-wife again, unless she marries someone else and gets divorced or widowed.

According to the Ibadi sect, 3 talaqs at once the divorce will occur.

So like under the Ibadhi mathhab, a woman needs a guardian (wali) to finalize her marriage contract, while under the Hanafi mathhab a woman will contract her own marriage without the permission of a guardian. Islamic law has various forms :D but this is all in pursuit to attain God's pleasure or to attain the Shariah. Anyway who studies Islamic law will notice that when they study it at school or university, it will fall under the section named fiqh, not shariah.

Actually Sophis a virgin needs a guardian (in all madhabs) and a divorced or widowed woman does not. Both Ibadhi and Hanbali agree on this sweetie.

Another lil thing you cant just divorce someone by saying talak - there have to be witnesses

According to the Ibadi sect, 3 talaqs at once the divorce will occur.

I was thinking of that as well. So saying 3 talaqs at once will mean that they cannot get married again? (just to confirm)

Anyway, Marianna, my post was according to the Sunni sect :D.

I believe very much that we need to account for ourselves.

Some people, both Christians and Muslims, believe that it's wrong to challenge their religions.

But I think if we claim the Truth, we have a responsibility to account for ourselves. I don't want to judge them. I want to love them.

Now that sounds like a true Christian. ( And I mean it in a really nice complimentary way!)

I was thinking of that as well. So saying 3 talaqs at once will mean that they cannot get married again? (just to confirm)



Yes that is what I know.

But of course a wise man should be careful not to issue 3 at once, unless he is 100% doesn't want his wife back again.

Actually Sophis a virgin needs a guardian (in all madhabs) and a divorced or widowed woman does not. Both Ibadhi and Hanbali agree on this sweetie.



That's incorrect, not all sects needs a wali. Ibadhi and Handbali, yes they do need a wali. But according to the Hanafi sect, you don't need a wali. You can check Islamonline for confirmation.

Another lil thing you cant just divorce someone by saying talak - there have to be witnesses

I'm not sure which mathab you are talking about, but what I know that the husband can divorce his wife without witnesses, it is all to do with his intention.

Actually Sophis a virgin needs a guardian (in all madhabs) and a divorced or widowed woman does not. Both Ibadhi and Hanbali agree on this sweetie.

Another lil thing you cant just divorce someone by saying talak - there have to be witnesses

Sweetie, you really need to get upto speed on the marvels of the islamic divorce.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3100143.stmr

I was thinking of that as well. So saying 3 talaqs at once will mean that they cannot get married again? (just to confirm)

Anyway, Marianna, my post was according to the Sunni sect :D.

In Islam a man can divorce her three seperate times - that means he can divorce her, remarry her, divorce her, remarry her but the third time he does it he cannot remarry her unless she marries another man and has sex with him. It is not as simple as just saying I divorce you pack your bags and go. There is a 3 month waiting period and it is her choice whether to go back to him or not. Its like a seperation, a cooling off period.

The thread is not about Islamic divorce.

Stay on topic wudjab.

Then why are YOU discussing it ?

Sweetie, you really need to get upto speed on the marvels of the islamic divorce.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3100143.stmr

Cant open the link and dont call me sweetie! I aint your sweetie today. And I also dont know what BBC could possibly teach me that the Quoran doesnt.

Actually Sophis a virgin needs a guardian (in all madhabs) and a divorced or widowed woman does not. Both Ibadhi and Hanbali agree on this sweetie.



Aha! Here it is:

The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty.

http://ww1.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544420&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

Each sect has its own rules it seems. :D


BTW, I did explain previously to Marianna the formalities of getting a divorce.

I'm not sure which mathab you are talking about, but what I know that the husband can divorce his wife without witnesses, it is all to do with his intention.

IceTea, I don't think the witnesses have to actually hear the pronounciation. I think it basically is when you write a written confirmation and then send it to the register or sheikh, so that it is confirmed that a divorce has in fact taken place.

BTW, Wudjub, can you plz re-send that link, coz we can't open it.

Annnyyway I think its all about interpretation either way - Christian Jew Muslim Hindu whatever. All religions have their own view on this topic. I just personally feel that the Catholics have the right idea but the wrong implementation and follow through when it comes to divorce:yes::dev:

IceTea, I don't think the witnesses have to actually hear the pronounciation. I think it basically is when you write a written confirmation and then send it to the register or sheikh, so that it is confirmed that a divorce has in fact taken place.

BTW, Wudjub, can you plz re-send that link, coz we can't open it.

Maybe you are right, it is required in the court to issue the divorce paper.

Annnyyway I think its all about interpretation either way - Christian Jew Muslim Hindu whatever. All religions have their own view on this topic. I just personally feel that the Catholics have the right idea but the wrong implementation and follow through when it comes to divorce:yes::dev:

Islam always give solutions, if something is prohibited then another thing is allowed to create a balance.

Adultry is prohibited while pologamy is allowed.
Divorce is allowed to end a non working marraige.
Riba is prohibited while selling is allowed.
Pork is prohibited while other types of meat made lawful.

And so on.

Book 8, Number 3306:
Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: A woman without a husband has wore right to her person than her guardian, and a virgin's consent must be asked from her, and her silence implies her consent.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 8, Number 3307:
Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A woman who has been previously married (Thayyib) has more right to her person than her guardian.And a virgin should also be consulted, and her silence implies her consent. "

http://www.isna.net/library/hadith/muslim/008_smt.html

Sophis, I personally dont follow madhabs just what is written in the Quoran and sunnah. If i followed a madhab that would be the same as being a Christian :rolleyes: But i like your fire:) And no Ice they dont have to be present when he says it but there must be witnesses before it can be final

Islam always give solutions, if something is prohibited then another thing is allowed to create a balance.

Adultry is prohibited while pologamy is allowed.
Divorce is allowed to end a non working marraige.
Riba is prohibited while selling is allowed.
Pork is prohibited while other types of meat made lawful.

And so on.

Yup! Exactly!:D

Sophis,

Link seems to be working on and off.

Heres the page :

Malaysia permits text message divorce


The text message must be clear and unambiguous to qualify
Getting a quickie divorce has taken on a whole new meaning in Malaysia after it was decided that a man can divorce his wife with a text message.
The government's adviser on religious affairs, the man who counsels Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, said as long as the message was clear and unambiguous it was valid under Islamic Sharia law.

"SMS is just another form of writing," Dr Abdul Hamid Ot