I was having a discussion with friend upon the latest attack toward Islam and the real reason behind it despite the speech freedom that they are talking about in that cartoon and the strict terrorism !

What I thought of it was this ! Deep in my heart I believe in it, but many just don’t or they see it and can’t think of it as the main reason !

Muslims 'to outnumber traditional churchgoers' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/25/nmuslims125.xml)





The increasing influence of Islam on British culture is disclosed in research today that shows the number of Muslims worshipping at mosques in England and Wales will outstrip the numbers of Roman Catholics going to church in little more than a decade.

Projections show Muslims are to outstrip Catholic Sunday worshippers by 2020

Projections to be published next month estimate that, if trends continue, the number of Catholic worshippers at Sunday Mass will fall to 679,000 by 2020.

By that time, statisticians predict, the number of Muslims praying in mosques on Fridays will have increased to 683,000.

The Christian Research figures also suggest that, over the same period, the number of Muslims at mosques will overtake Church of England members at Sunday services.

Church spokesmen point out, however, that a growing number of Anglicans worship at other times of the week.

In some places there is a decrease in church going. In others there is an increase.

I think taking England as an example is simply focusing on one country. And their examples can't be taken to reflect any global trend.

BUT.. it certainly reflects immigration trends ... More muslims flock into the UK and more Brits scramble to get out. More muslims have 4, 5 or 6 kids.. and more Brits have 1 or 2. Discussing why that happens is irrelevant to this topic and for another thread. ;)

This is only normal as most Muslims,no matter where, live a life where Islam plays a continuous part. As for the Christians, with time, church and religion have lost its importance.

I sit and watched amazed how Christians openly disrespect and make a joke of Jesus (PBUH) on television shows, someone who they consider not only a Prophet, but the God!

Excuse me sting, but how do you know these people are Christian at all? :)
You seem to forget that in the West we have freedom of religion. That includes freedom to not have or adhere to any religion, too.

STING, don't just get your impressions from television! :p If you hung out with some the Christians I know, or even frequented some of their websites, I think you would have a different impression. Spend a few days at Christendom college nearby my home with the students and I think you would be slow to judge us quite so negatively! :p

I don't doubt at all that there are a significant number of conversions to Islam these days in Britain (and other places!) and that there are good and understandable reasons for it.

But the odd thing about these statistics is that they compare Islam, not to Christianity, but to CATHOLICISM in Britain.

Anyone notice anything odd about that? Catholicism is a minority religion in Britain and has been a small minority religion since the 16th Century.

Islam is also a minority religion, growing as Catholicism did, through immigration.

About the only sure thing you can say about "projected trends" is that they almost always fail to come out the way people expect. You can't just extend straight lines into the future! :p

It may be the Islam grows twice as fast. Or that it doesn't. Or that Christianity revives in Britain and outstrips it.

No matter. I think living among Christians and secular people is good for Muslims and tends to produce changes in Muslim attitudes and approaches as much as it affects us. So, I welcome it. Having Muslims around enriches me and strenghthens my faith in God as well as having many other positive effects.

Jeff I always enjoy reading your posts. You put things into a perspective that makes sense to me. I also wondered about comparing Catholics to Muslims since Catholics are in the minority in England and have been for centuries. So the article can be misleading to those who don't understand the Christian sects or who prefer to put blinders on when it comes to accurate data reporting.

^^

Well the name Marianna is always a sure-fire way to get me to read the attached posts too! :)

We make these kinds of mistakes too sometimes...it's not only from the other "side." And there is some truth in what these statistics signify.

The world is a complicated old place and it's awfully hard to predict the future. But I think we do a better job when we look for the things we might have missed in our analyses.

Thanks Jeff!

I always am a believer in hard science when it comes to stat reporting or any kind of proof. When you have reliable research data that is independently backed by reputable sources then you have a more educated view of your world.

Talking about conversions, whats the general consensus on the Magdi Allam affair ?

Yet there are many many more people out there, Good Christians who live good lives, love Jesus and go to church on a regular basis. All this negativity on Christians and the West leaves a bad taste in my mouth....ugh.

All I want to say here is that the message of this thread is very true and obvious, and the disrespect you see for religions in the West is a good indicator!

come to malta and you'll see a good few disrespecting muslims as well.
drinking, smoking and hassling girls for sex, but i wouldn't tar the whole lot of muslims with what i see over here. (now that would be another thread)
yes many christians disrespect, but many more christians are church going and live the christian way.

it's probably true we're gonna be outnumbered. over here families have two kids each, and no more. having six kids is unsustainable.

Totally agree with you Minerva. I have seen some Muslims who succumb to the pitfalls of human weaknesses as well as Christians. What I cannot stand are people who think that they are all that and holier than thou. Threads like these which bash Christian values and the Western world make me roll my eyes in disgust because I have yet to see some people here post GOOD things about Christians. Hmmmm.....how much hatred resides in some of their hearts...I mean really...how deep does this go that they have to always bash Westerners and Christians every chance they get? What kind of life is that to hold so much hostility. NOT healthy.

Totally agree with you Minerva. I have seen some Muslims who succumb to the pitfalls of human weaknesses as well as Christians. What I cannot stand are people who think that they are all that and holier than thou. Threads like these which bash Christian values and the Western world make me roll my eyes in disgust because I have yet to see some people here post GOOD things about Christians. Hmmmm.....how much hatred resides in some of their hearts...I mean really...how deep does this go that they have to always bash Westerners and Christians every chance they get? What kind of life is that to hold so much hostility. NOT healthy.
i've said the same thing last week.
some people come in here and all their posts are singularly one track minded.
they have nothing else to say.
does not say much about them. and i wonder if in actual real life, they manage to be nice to anybody.

Minerva, I can find such Muslims in Oman, I don't have to go to Malta, unless you insist of course ;)! Anyhow, my point isn't about how Christians or Muslims behave individually. If I do bad things then I harm myself, but I still believe in my religion, I was just weak and went astray. But then again, God forgives all sins (see my signature).

So basically, its one thing if we do not follow our religions individually, but when you start seeing public disrespect of religious believes and symbols, that really crosses all limits of humanity.

In Islam, its forbidden to disrespect other religions no matter what, even if they were man-made! And imagine, for us, Jesus (PBUH) was a special Prophet sent before the last Prophet, Muhammad (PBUH), and like all prophets, we must respect them.

I understand you don't like my comments, but don't take them personally. Its not productive that you respond by saying that Muslims drink and have illegal sex, its better if you just accept that Christians have lost their way and religion, and they can't even show simple respect to Jesus (PBUH)! So believe, be open minded :)

Btw, even Hindus (who worship mythical characters, animals and other objects) do not show such disrespect to their gods or religions, neither do Jews, so why the Christians lost their way?

Again, this isn't about followers of Christianity, and am not generalizing either, its about disrespecting religions and Prophets. Even if a Muslim disrespects Jesus or another prophet like its done in the West, I would show the same annoyance.

There are plenty of Christians though who don't like Jesus being mocked...I hate seeing how Catholicism is portrayed in Hollywood. Unfortunately when you live in a society where freedom of speech is protected you will have incidents like this. One cannot just censor everything because well....it can always lead to a severity most people would not enjoy and if a society is used to freedom of speech even if it means mocking a religion then such incidences will happen. We don't have to like it but if we start curtailing free speech in such areas it leaves the door open for more rights to be trampeled upon. The best thing is just NOT watch those things which will offend. That is your right.

come to malta and you'll see a good few disrespecting muslims as well.
drinking, smoking and hassling girls for sex, but i wouldn't tar the whole lot of muslims with what i see over here. (now that would be another thread)
yes many christians disrespect, but many more christians are church going and live the christian way.

it's probably true we're gonna be outnumbered. over here families have two kids each, and no more. having six kids is unsustainable.
Unsustainable unless you had that nice government cheque coming in to feed you and your 6 rugrats, a nice government house over your head, plus free healthcare and schooling that fellow citizens pay for through the nose from their taxes.. *cough*

But tell me, have you put the SUV in the garage? :)

Sting, dahling, if you had an ounce of respect the first thing you would do was NOT put those video clips on this forum.

If they stay there, I think I'll put a mohammed cartoon in my sig, to express how bad it is for anyone to mock islam. :)

I at least 90% plus involved in any way with this videos, and other even more shows that I have seen, are all Christians right? Not practicing ones perhaps, but then thats what am trying to say, and this is what this thread suggests, right?

No, I don't think that's right, STING.

I haven't watched the videos, so maybe I'm missing something, but most people in the West who are involved in things like news, making movies, teaching at universities, etc., are not Christians in any way, shape, or form. Many of them dislike religion and many of them simply HATE Christianity.

This is something many Muslims who haven't lived in the West find it difficult to grasp: large numbers of people with no religion at all. Not even a label. And people who feel no connection between themselves and the religion of their ancestors.

My mother and my father had no religion. By no religion, I don't mean "non-practicing Christian". I mean NO RELIGION. They didn't--and my mother doesn't--think of themselves as Christian in any way, shape, or form. Not even as a label.

If they were given a form with a choice of religion to check that had no box for "None", they wouldn't know what to do. They certainly wouldn't check "Christian".

There's a well-known journalist and blogger who goes to my church sometimes who worked for a large New York news agency. She converted to Christianity and was fired because of it! "We don't want our viewers to think we have Christians around here" her boss said, or something like that.

Someone like Mel Gibson, who is a serious and practicing Catholic, are weird to the point of being bizarre in Hollywood.

Take a look at one of the recent huge bestsellers in the West, a book by Christopher Hitchens. It makes an allusion to your religion and its shahada in its title:

http://www.fr.com/practice/kw/GodIsNotGreat-Large.jpg

"god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"

And there are several other books by famous atheists and anti-religionists that have sold hugely too.

And not a peep of objection from Muslims. You'd think the title of this book would make them hopping mad, but: No.

Christians are not the establishment in the West anymore. They are an underground of sorts. If Muslims are accepted more than Christians to a certain extent among such people, it is more that they like to be "multicultural" and pat all the third world people on the head, whether they believe in witchdoctors or Allah, it's all just quaint local customs of people who are living with primitive minds.

It's fine if you like to think that Islam is the solution to all this. But meanwhile, in the West, all of this affects Muslims and their kids too. And that's why Muslims and Christians and Jews are beginning to work together to resist societal Godlessness.

But we have so many fish to fry, it all goes so deep, that there is only so much time to fight every little thing. But secular people in the West have lost the sense of REVERENCE and of HOLINESS. That's part of the reason why there was such a disconnect about the Danish cartoons: making fun of anything holy to people is an everyday affair for them...why suddenly a big outcry?, they wonder...

Here is a paraphrase of some of Hitchens' book from Slate magazine. This part deals mostly with Islam, but his ideas about Christianity and other religions are equally contemptous:

Thus, Islamic belief, however simply or modestly it may be stated, is an extreme position to begin with. No human being can possibly claim to know that there is a God at all, or that there are, or were, any other gods to be repudiated. And when these ontological claims have collided, as they must, with their logical limits, it is even further beyond the cognitive capacity of any person to claim without embarrassment that the lord of creation spoke his ultimate words to an unlettered merchant in seventh-century Arabia. Those who utter such fantastic braggings, however many times a day they do so, can by definition have no idea what they are talking about. (I hasten to add that those who boast of knowing about Moses parting the Red Sea, or about a virgin with a huge tummy, are in exactly the same position.) Finally, it turns out to be impossible to determine whether jihad means more alms-giving or yet more zealous massacre of, say, Shiite Muslims.

http://www.slate.com/id/2171371/fr/flyout

I don't understand why the faith's ... reputation ... is being determined by the number of worshipers going to a church or masjid.

I see men going to the masjid, many men, but I don't see them change anything (I won't say in the world), but even in something simpler like their approach to life through religion.

I hope I'm making even a bit of sense here, because I'm confused myself.

^^

That's an excellent point! :p

We are always looking at the surface of things, while God looks at the interior, the heart.

I often think that if we make it to Heaven, we may be very surprised by the people we find there and the ones we don't!

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 55: 8.

Yes! We don't and can't understand God. But we should believe the best and that He is the Most Merciful.

You know, we have beliefs that there will come a time where Muslims do not go to the masjid, even the Ka'aba will be deserted to the extent that a man comes and destroys it without anyone saying anything.

Who's fault will it be that people abandoned religion, the religion's fault or the peoples'? I believe it's the same question we should ask when we see people who claim to follow Christianity stop going to churches. Just like when people who claim to be Muslims will stop going to masjids.

I demand the above videos to be removed immediately and the offending member to receive a strong warning

I demand the above videos to be removed immediately and the offending member to receive a strong warning

I don't think STING meant any harm. He's my friend and I want to defend him.

I think he was just trying to illustrate a point.

Maybe the best way in such a case is to post a link with a warning, rather than post the videos. But I don't think a warning is necessary, just a suggestion and an adjustment.

And talking about the produced a healthy discussion, I thought.

Very very very big deal.
Frankly though, we're 1.5 billion now...What have we contributed to the world in, say, the last ten years?

Will it be any better if we're six billion or twelve billion if a large bit of us go by the logic, 'God gave other this life and gave us Paradise'?

Very very very big deal.
Frankly though, we're 1.5 billion now...What have we contributed to the world in, say, the last ten years?

Will it be any better if we're six billion or twelve billion if a large bit of us go by the logic, 'God gave other this life and gave us Paradise'?
You know.. you reminded me of something I've been meaning to discuss.. maybe this is the time for it..

Do you feel that some muslims care little about how they treat people on this earth because all they can be pre-occupied with is the 'next life'?

I know it's ironic because I know you believe that how you behave here will determine the outcome of that.. but some people don;t "get it" and on one hand pray like the world was ending and on the other are nasty, unfair and prejudiced to those around them.

What's the point of all that praying? So people can look at this person and say "wow... he's such a devout muslim." ?
Or maybe they thinkg God cares only that they stick to praying all the time?

You're summarising too many ideas of Islam in one post :p
You see, as Muslims our prophet PBUH instructed us and said, 'Pray like you're about to die'. Because only at imagining a moment of death, when one feels God's power at its maximum, can one ever pray so devoutly.

But we are also instructed to 'live this life like you live forever, and work for the afterlife as if you die tomorrow'. That's a saying of Imam Ali Bin Abi Talib (May Allah Be Pleased With Him). To pray only to get people's attention is a work which is tainted by Riya'a. In other words, it is done to please people not to please God. For example, going around giving charity and talking about it all the time, giving charity in order to get noticed, praying to get noticed...I personally feel many people like that but I can never judge they're like so, because only Allah knows their true intentions and He will judge them accordingly.

As you said, it is very ironic. We were taught in eighth grade Islamic Studies that every work done for the sake of Allah, anything done with a general aim to please God, falls under the definition of worship. If you study, so you can get a good job, house a good family, and make your country a better place, to make your parents happy of you, to make your society better...All those are deeds that Islam promotes and should be done with not a worldly intention but a higher intention, a Godly intention. And only then are their true tastes felt and their success truly earned.

You're summarising too many ideas of Islam in one post :p
You see, as Muslims our prophet PBUH instructed us and said, 'Pray like you're about to die'. Because only at imagining a moment of death, when one feels God's power at its maximum, can one ever pray so devoutly.

But we are also instructed to 'live this life like you live forever, and work for the afterlife as if you die tomorrow'. That's a saying of Imam Ali Bin Abi Talib (May Allah Be Pleased With Him). To pray only to get people's attention is a work which is tainted by Riya'a. In other words, it is done to please people not to please God. For example, going around giving charity and talking about it all the time, giving charity in order to get noticed, praying to get noticed...I personally feel many people like that but I can never judge they're like so, because only Allah knows their true intentions and He will judge them accordingly.

As you said, it is very ironic. We were taught in eighth grade Islamic Studies that every work done for the sake of Allah, anything done with a general aim to please God, falls under the definition of worship. If you study, so you can get a good job, house a good family, and make your country a better place, to make your parents happy of you, to make your society better...All those are deeds that Islam promotes and should be done with not a worldly intention but a higher intention, a Godly intention. And only then are their true tastes felt and their success truly earned.


That's really cool: it sounds so "Christian"! :p

One of the things I love about these discussions at their best is the way you think we are so different, then you find these amazing unities, then you find, big difference, then more amazing unities! I wonder if there is ever an end point when you've got it all figured out!

Your discussion about Riya'a made me think of these famous sayings of Our Lord:

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.'

14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6: 1-17.

There are plenty of Christians though who don't like Jesus being mocked...I hate seeing how Catholicism is portrayed in Hollywood.

Of course there are, thanks god, but its very sad how its become "normal" to disrespect Christianity and Jesus. And imagine the effects of this on children! I once remember watching a show called Malcolm in the Middle, a family show, and they disrespected Jesus and the whole process of going to churches and I felt bad for Americans!

Sting, dahling, if you had an ounce of respect the first thing you would do was NOT put those video clips on this forum.

If they stay there, I think I'll put a mohammed cartoon in my sig, to express how bad it is for anyone to mock islam. :)

I put those videos there because thats not the Jesus (PBUH) we believe in, just as those pathetic cartoons indicate nothing but racism and disrespect. Also, as I expected, none of the Christians on this board actually felt angry, and thats what I have been trying to say! Sadly, thanks to the culture, media, tv and movies, Christians don't find it disrespectful when their own people make such stupid and pathetic videos of Jesus (PBUH)!

You keep on trying to indicate that I disrespect Jesus or Christianity, but believing in all prior Prophets is a corner stone of Islam, so you can't be any wrong.

I simply feel pity on Christians and feel anger towards those who create videos like those shared above. And this is how every Christian should feel!

Prophets and god-sent religions aren't something to joke about, draw cartoons of, make comedy shows upon and above all lie about! We had one Irani Muslim write a book about Islam and the Prophet full of idiocy and false information, now that man lives in UK, this is how it should be, discussing religions and prophets is one thing, but limits can't be crossed :)

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.

Yeah IceTea, excellent point, in Islam its only between you and the Creator of All, a direct one-to-one connection, you can repent, ask for forgiveness, pray and everything else without needing a third-party.

I dont think its fair to judge how Christians behave if you are not one, and same with muslims. At the end, both christians and muslims are humans who are not perfect.

I also agree with umkhalid, the number of followers doesnt indicate anything but a number. It wouldnt show anything more than a statistic it wouldnt explain the religion. Its the quality of the followers the count.

I put those videos there because thats not the Jesus (PBUH) we believe in, just as those pathetic cartoons indicate nothing but racism and disrespect. Also, as I expected, none of the Christians on this board actually felt angry, and thats what I have been trying to say! Sadly, thanks to the culture, media, tv and movies, Christians don't find it disrespectful when their own people make such stupid and pathetic videos of Jesus (PBUH)!

You keep on trying to indicate that I disrespect Jesus or Christianity, but believing in all prior Prophets is a corner stone of Islam, so you can't be any wrong.

I simply feel pity on Christians and feel anger towards those who create videos like those shared above. And this is how every Christian should feel!

Prophets and god-sent religions aren't something to joke about, draw cartoons of, make comedy shows upon and above all lie about! We had one Irani Muslim write a book about Islam and the Prophet full of idiocy and false information, now that man lives in UK, this is how it should be, discussing religions and prophets is one thing, but limits can't be crossed :)
You disrespected MY religion by putting those clips on here.

It's not very difficult to grab the essence of this one sentence, but if you are having difficulty, I'll explain it again.

Thanks to the mods who removed them from this thread.

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.
I have no barrier in communicating with God. I'm perfectly capable of immersing myself in prayer all alone, just like you.

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.

Hmm, well, I don't know what you mean by 'sprirituality'. Following a set of instructions can be very spiritual. But it can also mean going through the motions. It depends.

And I would say that a stairway is not a barrier, nor is a bridge. We believe that God lives in us, literally, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We call that "sanctifying grace". Can't get closer than that! :)

Spiritual part is lost in Christianity, while in Islam it is always alive, the five daily prayers is enough to bring one too close to Allah if prayed the right way. In Islam there is no barrier to communicate to God unlike Christianity you follow the church and priests for confession.
in christianity,true love for God is not manifested just by praying five times. but doing good unto others. that's what jesus told us anyway. what we do unto others, good or bad, we are doing it with him.

I agree, praying five times a day may or may not bring you closer to God. If you are simply "going through the motions" because it becomes a habit then really how is that bringing you closer? You gotta "feel" it inside. Of course there are men and women who pray five times a day and feel God always....I think good deeds coupled with prayer means more. And you should do these good deeds simply for the sake of helping someone and not because it will give you an honored and beloved place in Heaven. For me, when people go around doing good because they think it will automatically give them front row tickets to God is being quite hypocritical...same as praying and only doing it for "habit" sake is being hypocritical also.....

I would much rather be a simple woman....who does good deeds because it is the right thing to do to help your fellow human being and sit in the back of a church than be the richest woman alive, sitting up front because she wishes to be seen for her "good works".....

You disrespected MY religion by putting those clips on here.

It's not very difficult to grab the essence of this one sentence, but if you are having difficulty, I'll explain it again.

Thanks to the mods who removed them from this thread.

Alright, then would you agree that all TV channels, including YouTube, disrespect your religion as they show that kind of videos?

Btw, have a look at the comments made in those videos, you will notice how pissed the Christians are after watching videos (NOT), and how much they protested against YouTube (NOT) :)

Let me share a comment made by a muslim to one of those videos:


hassanhashaam (3 days ago)

I am a Muslim but I am shocked to see this, If u can not respect the great personalities then please dont insult them. I beleive that Jesus is prophit of God but those who believe him as son of God will please stop this non-sense to prevent from his insult. Please

I wanna share some extremely disrespectful comments made by guys called "mike" or other supposedly Christian names, but since you find it disrespectful, I won't share it, but you can read them anyhow :D

great! we must be a greater religion than we thought.
every single mike, tom, john, peter....are christians. because they have christian names. logic.

ahmed is to muslim
peter is to christian.

^^

STING, what you don't understand is that this stuff goes on all over the place in every forum.

We have had years of experience of watching this kind of thing and far worse examples of it. From "Piss Christ" to "The Last Temptation of Christ" to the "DaVinci Code" to any number of other things.

We protest the more important of them, but there's always another one.

The problem isn't this or that particular YouTube. The problem is a loss of the sense of Holiness in the secularized West, a hatred of the very idea of religion and of God.

Our hands are full with trying for years and years to get a handle on basic things like abortion and the fact that kids are not even allowed to acknowledge God publicly in our schools.

I'm GLAD that Muslims want to protest these kinds of things and I think we ought to join together more instead of quarrelling with each other.

Posting links to offensive videos seems to be a strange way of protesting, what say you Jeff ?

^^

STING, what you don't understand is that this stuff goes on all over the place in every forum.

We have had years of experience of watching this kind of thing and far worse examples of it. From "Piss Christ" to "The Last Temptation of Christ" to the "DaVinci Code" to any number of other things.

We protest the more important of them, but there's always another one.

The problem isn't this or that particular YouTube. The problem is a loss of the sense of Holiness in the secularized West, a hatred of the very idea of religion and of God.

Our hands are full with trying for years and years to get a handle on basic things like abortion and the fact that kids are not even allowed to acknowledge God publicly in our schools.

I'm GLAD that Muslims want to protest these kinds of things and I think we ought to join together more instead of quarrelling with each other.

Brother Jeff, I am not the one quarreling, and you can see that, but to solve a problem, we must first accept that a problem exists, and some members here are blaming me for disrespecting Christianity and Jesus (PBUH), which I am doing the opposite of!

You agree that this non-sense and worst exists in the secular West, but then we have so many secular Muslims countries don't we? Besides, not running a country based on religious teachings doesn't mean we go on and disrespect religious figures.

As a Muslim, I am proud of how we boycotted the Danes after their pathetic cartoons although they live all the way in Europe, but thats how we show our love to our Prophet, and thats how we stick to our religion!

And I challenge you to find a single disrespectful image, article, video, cartoon or anything like that of Jesus (PBUH) published in any Islamic country in any way!

In fact, Jesus or any other Prophet, even Moses (PBUH).

Trust me, if I find a guy dressed the way he is dress, acting the way he is acting, roaming around singing on streets in Muscat, I will make sure he is put in jail and sued well and made an example of other with that kind of sick minds!

I would like to think that there are still good Christians in the West...yes there are those who are atheists or who could care less about any type of religion but I like to believe in the common good of humankind. Typically in the West there is the separation of church and state. Our society...laws are not immersed in some ways as seen in Islamic countries. For me it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Brother STING:

I think that's a great attitude and a great start.

But part of disrespecting is asking people, "Do you feel I have disrespected you?"

Because sometimes we do it without meaning to, we don't realize it.

I agree that it is rare for Muslims to disrespect the figure of Jesus, because they revere him also.

But I think it sometimes happens that Muslims disrespect other aspects of our religions that they do not revere but that we consider to be holy.

I agree in a general way that Muslim culture and tradition cultivates a deep respect for even other people's ideas of what is holy...heck, I've even seen Muslims come to our churches to pray in front of statues...that might be confused from your point of view, but it certainly shows that they have a respect even for other people's ideas of what is holy.

When I said we should work together, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about people in general. And I'm talking to Christians as much as I'm talking to Muslims.

We need to work together so that Western countries can begin to recapture a respect for the Holy. And that will be good for everybody in the world. It will be good for everybody, no matter which religion is true.

I would like to think that there are still good Christians in the West...yes there are those who are atheists or who could care less about any type of religion but I like to believe in the common good of humankind. Typically in the West there is the separation of church and state. Our society...laws are not immersed in some ways as seen in Islamic countries. For me it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Marianna, I totally agree with you, 100%! But all am saying is separation of religion from government does not mean we could allow for people gone astray to start making jokes of Jesus (someone you call God) publicly! There should be limits right? There should be regulations right?

Christians in general sadly have lost their way, and even the ones who still follow their religion, fail to stop others from mocking their God!

The Danes and others have been publishing cartoons and movies to disrespect our Prophet (PBUH), isn't it easy for us to disrespect the figure of Jesus (PBUH) or others?

Its not about government, its about the people! We as Muslim don't and will not accept any insult to any Prophet or religion, so why is it that Christians have decided to accept it?

When Jesus comes back, we Muslims would be the first to support him, what would the Christians say when he asks why none protested disrespect against him and laughed on him? You would say we don't mix government with religion?

Brother STING:

I think that's a great attitude and a great start.

But part of disrespecting is asking people, "Do you feel I have disrespected you?"



I only posted those videos to prove to that the figure of Jesus (PBUH) has become a joke in the West! If someone felt its disrespectful, then I apologize, but I find it extremely hypocritical for one to protest me sharing the video to show my anger against those who disrespect Jesus (PBUH) by making and then laughing on such videos, but find it normal when their fellow American TV Channels and Websites publicly make such video it and expose millions around the world to it!

I only posted those videos to prove to that the figure of Jesus (PBUH) has become a joke in the West! If someone felt its disrespectful, then I apologize, but I find it extremely hypocritical for one to protest me sharing the video to show my anger against those who disrespect Jesus (PBUH) by making and then laughing on such videos, but find it normal when their fellow American TV Channels and Websites publicly make such video it and expose millions around the world to it!
law of the country in the west is not tied to religion.
there are many christians in the west, but not everybody is a christian.

^^

I agree with a lot of this STING, but I don't agree that we are blameworthy for "failing to stop" mockery of religion. How would we do it? There just aren't enough of us and we don't have enough power in our societies.

And it's an enormous problem.

But there is something else, too.

Christians in a very deep way expect that they will be mocked and spit on and hunted and killed. And that everything about us and what we hold to be holy will be cursed and trodden underfoot.

And that this is precisely the road to Triumph. If you saw the movie, "The Passion of the Christ" you can get some sense of what I am talking about. It is precisely in being mocked and spat on and tortured and crucified that Christ triumphs.

They say, "You said You were a King! We'll see what kind of a King You are!" And they make a crown for Him out of thorns and stick it on His head and put a silly reed in His hand for a sceptre and spit at Him and beat Him. And the Roman governor scourges Him bloody and takes Him out on a balcony and shows Him to the crowd:

"Ecce Homo!"

he says.

"Behold the Man!"

And we behold Him just like that and reproduce this image of mockery, which is an image of Glory and we call it just that: an "Ecce Homo" a "Behold the Man"

http://smallbay.ru/images/durer92.jpg
Ecce Homo

And as He is being tortured to death and mocked by the taunting crowd, He prays, "Forgive them, Father, for they don't understand what they are doing."

Well, we want to stop the mockery. But if we can't, then God will use it to bring a greater good. And so we can glory in that, too.

I only posted those videos to prove to that the figure of Jesus (PBUH) has become a joke in the West! If someone felt its disrespectful, then I apologize, but I find it extremely hypocritical for one to protest me sharing the video to show my anger against those who disrespect Jesus (PBUH) by making and then laughing on such videos, but find it normal when their fellow American TV Channels and Websites publicly make such video it and expose millions around the world to it!

No, no, I defended you, remember! :p

I understood your point.

But I'm just saying that if you think about it, some people do express their opinions in a way which seems disrespectful. *I* don't mind, but some people do.

I saw a comment in a discussion board saying, "The Bible is a mess!" and another one saying, "Probably they put this in the Bible so they could abuse boys"...things like that.

Well, for me, that's what people think and this a Muslim forum...I don't mind.

But you can see how people might find the manner of speech offensive.

I'm not complaining, but I am saying that ALL of us would do better to try to constantly remember how it feels to the other guy and how it impacts on his understanding of the Holy.

Because I think the reason why there is a Muslim tradition of respect for other religions--even if Muslims think they are wrong, even if they are doing 'shirk', the worst of all sins--is that you have to first RESPECT the idea of the Holy and then develop it.

So you don't mock other people's understanding of the Holy even if it is wrong. Good principle, don't you agree?

law of the country in the west is not tied to religion.
there are many christians in the west, but not everybody is a christian.

I know that minerva, but that justifies the such disrespectful videos and images? Why don't the Christians show anger and protest? Only because someone stops believing in Christianity it doesn't mean he/she could start laughing on Jesus and making funny videos!

I saw a comment in a discussion board saying, "The Bible is a mess!" and another one saying, "Probably they put this in the Bible so they could abuse boys"...things like that.


I have seen posts saying The Holy Qur'an orders the killing and murder of non-Muslims, and many other disrespectful and insulting posts.

I will be honest, I find many things in the Bible that I don't agree with or understand, many thins that contradict other things in the Bible! But thats not the point, and I don't mean to disrespect.

You have been the only member who actually explained logically and helped me a lot understand Christianity!

But the point here isn't about others disrespecting Jesus or Christianity, its about Christians (or who stopped being Christians) disrespecting and Jesus and Christians in a country with mostly Christians! In a country where the politicians use the Bible to swear in their offices! In a country where judges use Bibles to swear in courts...etc

not all politicians swear on the bible. they get given a choice. :)

Well, you know I learn a lot from you, too, STING. I've admired you ever since we discussed pornography in the Bible way back when Liberty was running free! :p

Okay, but my point is: it ISN'T Christians, it is people whose ancestors may have been Christians at most.

My mother laughs at that kind of stuff. But what am I going to say to her? She's not a Christian. And she doesn't understand the concept of the Holy.

Shall I smack her face? Shall I spit on her? Shall I storm out of the house and refuse to eat dinner with her?

It's not as easy as you think.

not all politicians swear on the bible. they get given a choice. :)

Really? Whats the proportion of those who swear on the bible and those who swear on other books? I know some MPs in UK who swore at the Qur'an, never knew US had some too!

My mother laughs at that kind of stuff. But what am I going to say to her? She's not a Christian. And she doesn't understand the concept of the Holy.

Shall I smack her face? Shall I spit on her? Shall I storm out of the house and refuse to eat dinner with her?

It's not as easy as you think.

No you definitely shouldn't do that, but what do you do Jeff?

Anyhow, I am happy to see we all at least agree on that Jesus is publicly laughed at and disrespected in West, I hope this changes soon, so the general people learn to respect figures such as Jesus (PBUH) :)

Most politicians swear on the Bible, even if they don't take it seriously, just for image reasons. But all they do is put their hand on it, they don't invoke it.

The representative from Michigan, I forget his name, swore on the Quran. But he didn't invoke it.

But in any case, what do you do if you are a politician? How do you stop mockery?

If you get your friends to pass a law saying, "Prophets cannot be mocked", it will be challenged in court. And it will be struck down by the Supreme Court.

Because it's in our Constitution that freedom of speech cannot be abridged by Congress.

There's no mockery exception.

You would have to change the Constitution. That means getting a two thirds vote in both chambers of Congress and then get adopted by three quarters of the states. That's not going to happen. Too much resistance, even from religious people, who don't think the law ought to be forcing people not to mock.

No you definitely shouldn't do that, but what do you do Jeff?

Anyhow, I am happy to see we all at least agree on that Jesus is publicly laughed at and disrespected in West, I hope this changes soon, so the general people learn to respect figures such as Jesus (PBUH) :)

And this is one reason why I welcome Muslim help and why I see Muslim immigration to the West as a good thing.

Though it may have some disadvantages, I think in the end, it is good for both of us. :)

I think one of the reasons for which religion and state are not mixed is because we do have people from all over the world who come to live here who are not Christians and to invoke one major religion as being THE LAW and all people have to abide by it would create problems.

Early history why US has separation of church and state:

Quotation:
"When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun


Early immigrants to the American colonies were motivated largely by the desire to worship freely in their own fashion, particularly after the English Civil War, but also religious wars and disputes in France and Germany.[2] They included a large number of nonconformists such as the Puritans and the Pilgrims, as well as Catholics (in Baltimore). Despite a common background, the groups' views on broader religious toleration were mixed. While some notable examples such as Roger Williams of Rhode Island and William Penn ensured the protection of religious minorities within their colonies, others such as the Plymouth Colony and Massachusetts Bay Colony had established churches. The Dutch colony of the New Netherlands had also established the Dutch Reformed Church and outlawed all other worship, although enforcement by the Dutch West India Company in the last years of the colony was sparse. Part of the reason for establishment was financial: the established Church was responsible for poor relief, and dissenting churches would therefore have a significant advantage.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The principal religion in western hemisphere has been Christianity since the 16th century; it continues to be the choice of about 75% of the U.S. and Canadian adult populations. But, "religion" in the U.S. involves much more than Christian Churches; it includes:

Churches, circles, groves, gurdwaras, mosques, synagogues, temples, etc., and the organizations of which they are a part.

Solitary practitioners of an organized religion.

People who consider themselves religious, but are not affiliated with any specific group.

Humanists, secularists, Agnostics, Atheists, etc. all of whom have specific religious beliefs. Although some would consider them non-religious, if you ask an Agnostic what their religion is, they will probably reply "Agnostic."


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_State s

I have no barrier in communicating with God. I'm perfectly capable of immersing myself in prayer all alone, just like you.

Why do you need priests then if you can communicate with God directly?

And who will forgive your sins if not the priests?

^^

It's not much different from saying, "Why do you need prophets? Why can't God communicate with each person directly? I don't need any Quran."

And lots of people say that.

God works as God wills to work.

God teaches us through human beings. He speaks through human beings. And He works through human beings.

He forgives sins through human beings because He chooses to do so.

There are many reasons for that.

One reason is so that we will understand that all our sins affect our brothers and sisters. We hurt them when we sin, and not just when we sin directly against them either.

Another reason is so that we can have the consolation of HEARING that forgiveness through a voice that we can perceive. We can KNOW that THIS sin is forgiven, because we HEAR it. And since human beings are prone to guilt and to doubt, this is a great consolation.

There are other reasons as well.

Confession is one of the most beautiful things in the Catholic church. And I thank God for it with all my heart. But God is not Himself restricted by His sacrament. He CAN, in unusual circumstances when He wills, forgive through other means. But this is the normal means that He has willed.

Interestingly, the National Post ran an article on confession this weekend and there were some great letters to the editor yesterday.

For example,

I guess I must be one of those pre-Vatican thinkers on confession because I "enter the box" every week (sometimes even twice). Problem is, I'm only 30 and I learned about confession during the post-Vatican era. While the Church definitely emphasizes the mercy of God and does speak about social sins, it has never attempted to decrease the personal responsibility for, and repercussions of, sin.

Most of us shower daily -- cleansing oneself just monthly or even yearly would cause quite a stench. Our soul is no less sensitive to the dirt we build up on it. Thank God for frequent confession; instead of desensitizing me to the smell, it actually removes it.
Dorothy Chabot, Toronto.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/Story.html?id=397712

I have been going to weekly confession for almost 10 years now, and I don't consider myself an antiquated remnant of bygone days, as suggested by this article. I go to confession not because I'm scrupulous about my sins and fear retribution from a vindictive God, but because I seek the embrace of an understanding and loving Father. I need help in my daily struggle to be a more loving mother to my young children, a better spouse to my husband and a more caring friend. The sacramental grace I receive each week enables me to conquer my faults and failings. I go to the source of love, to love itself, in order to heal the weakness of my own poor love. Frequent reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a transformational experience that enables me to touch the heart of God.

K.N. Kramer, Vancouver.

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=397716

and

Confession is awesome. Where else can you go to look at your faults with the eyes of God, ask for forgiveness and leave with joy and peace? People pay out a ton of money to psychiatrists for this peace. It is a valuable endeavour to spend 20 minutes of our week to reflect on our actions and thoughts, ask for forgiveness, receive the grace of the sacrament and then continue on our way to heaven.
Elise Adolphe, Oakville, Ont.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/Story.html?id=397712

And this is one reason why I welcome Muslim help and why I see Muslim immigration to the West as a good thing.

Though it may have some disadvantages, I think in the end, it is good for both of us. :)

But Jeff, shouldn't you enlighten your mother about how disrespectful those videos are, and how inappropriate it is to make fun of a Prophet (or God)? You are a wise man, and I bet you must be doing something to change her opinion, and hopefully, one day you help change the mindset of all those ignorant people in the West that go around making fun or religions!

^^

It's not much different from saying, "Why do you need prophets? Why can't God communicate with each person directly? I don't need any Quran."

Priests are not prophets, beside that prophets themselves can't forgive their own sins let alone forgiving other people sins.



God teaches us through human beings. He speaks through human beings. And He works through human beings.

That proves Jesus is only a prophet not God.


He forgives sins through human beings because He chooses to do so.

Only God has the authority to forgive sins, because God knows what is in the heart of humans but humans (including a priest) don't know what is in the hearts and don't know the intentions.


There are many reasons for that.

One reason is so that we will understand that all our sins affect our brothers and sisters. We hurt them when we sin, and not just when we sin directly against them either.

Anyone will know that his sins normally affect others because it involves others.


Another reason is so that we can have the consolation of HEARING that forgiveness through a voice that we can perceive. We can KNOW that THIS sin is forgiven, because we HEAR it. And since human beings are prone to guilt and to doubt, this is a great consolation.

You don't need a voice, it all linked to the intension, if your intention of repent and asking for forgiveness is pure then Allah will be happy to forgive his slave. That is the beauty of Islam, you can feel that you are being forgiven without a human being telling you, you are forgiven.

It is same thing about the prayer, how would you know your prayer is accepted, well if you prayed the same way the prophet used to pray and with concentration then you can conclude that your prayer is accepted.

The English Sabla does not want to be part of this movie's distribution and any member who posts a link to it will be issued either a notice or warning.

This thread is Locked and links to the movie have been deleted. We do not welcome this discussion simply because we do not welcome biased and unreasonable opinions on our religion.

Nabhan made this comment in another thread and I think this thread should be locked because I think quite a few Christians here do not welcome biased and unreasonable opinions about our religion also. This thread has long outserved its usefulness.

Nabhan made this comment in another thread and I think this thread should be locked because I think quite a few Christians here do not welcome biased and unreasonable opinions about our religion also. This thread has long outserved its usefulness.
right........

The videos has been taken out I beleive.

If we dont accept discussions, then I guess the whole religion sabla should be closed. There are biased discussions about Islam here too, Nabhan meant the video of wilders not any other disucssion.

I learned quite a bit from Jeff's reply to IceTea.
Can't see why this should be locked :os! You can rectify it, deleting unnecssary posts, etcetra...

Priests are not prophets, beside that prophets themselves can't forgive their own sins let alone forgiving other people sins.




That proves Jesus is only a prophet not God.



Only God has the authority to forgive sins, because God knows what is in the heart of humans but humans (including a priest) don't know what is in the hearts and don't know the intentions.



Anyone will know that his sins normally affect others because it involves others.



You don't need a voice, it all linked to the intension, if your intention of repent and asking for forgiveness is pure then Allah will be happy to forgive his slave. That is the beauty of Islam, you can feel that you are being forgiven without a human being telling you, you are forgiven.

It is same thing about the prayer, how would you know your prayer is accepted, well if you prayed the same way the prophet used to pray and with concentration then you can conclude that your prayer is accepted.


Well, you are in teaching mode, as you usually are and that's fine.

But your actual question was "Why?"

My point is not that you can't make a rebuttal.

My point is just that God works through human beings if He wants and when He wants.

If God wants to communicate through a prophet, He can.

If God wants to forgive sins through a human being, He can.

Whether He DOES or not is a different question...

The videos has been taken out I beleive.

If we dont accept discussions, then I guess the whole religion sabla should be closed. There are biased discussions about Islam here too, Nabhan meant the video of wilders not any other disucssion.

Yeah, I agree.

What's the point of Sabla if it can't be a place for Muslims to say what they think?

We get a huge chance to reply and lots of open-minded people listening.

I think we should just let people talk and try to be easy-going. If we are going to defend freedom of speech, we shouldn't be thin-skinned when people here exercise it.

STING's videos were for demonstration purposes and no one who was afraid of being insulted needed to watch them. I didn't watch them, except for the beginning of one of them...

i didn't watch those videos, although i've seen similar ones.
i've also watched the life of brian, and enjoyed it. i don't think it made a mockery of christ.
i also believe my religion can withstand movies and more.
there are many other beautiful movies about my religion or with reference to it (Jesus of Nazareth, Song of Bernardette, City of Joy, Passion of the Christ, and oldies like spartacus, the robe, ben hur, etc...) and they counteract any movie.
i enjoyed the da vinci code as a by the beach novel...at the same time i understood the major fallacies in that book. trying to shut something up makes it louder. so i read, i watch, keep an open mind and judge for myself.