We all know the Allah is the most merciful & compassionate, non of us whatsoever can ever decide the fate of any human being, being it hell or heaven

But discussing the matter theoretically, in Christianity for one to be saved & join Jesus (pbuh), he/she must believe in Christ as the saviour & the way, if a Christian man or woman had Muslim children, are they going to be saved?

Same question goes to our Jewish cousins

The Jews don't really have a heaven or hell well not the same as Christianity and Islam. As in I must do good in this life for a good afterlife. You are also taught what to expect - paradise, heaven, hell

The focus is to do good in this life for this life and not to speculate about the afterlife because we aren't really taught what to expect in the Torah.

There are some Jewish group who do speculate about heaven and Gehenom (purgatory), and Mono can help there.

I'll stick to what Solomon said:

"The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17).

As for you question, if they are good and righteous then they have a place.

Nice answer Kara.

"The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17).

As for you question, if they are good and righteous then they have a place.

These two quotes touched me the most.

I'd rather discuss it factually. There is no such thing as a Muslim, Christian or Jewish offspring at birth.

There are children born that are taught the faith of their parents.

I believe this also. When I was baptized in the Catholic faith that is when I consider myself Catholic. I don't consider myself Catholic just because I was born from one. Now in the case of Heaven and Hell, people will have their differences but I think everyone wants to end up in the right place...wherever in their faith that place may be.

I also like the concept of doing good in this life FOR this life. Do it because it is the right thing to do and not because you are expecting any kind of reward in Heaven. For me that kind of has a selfish connotation. Of course people want to end up in Heaven but I think also...Do what is right by helping your fellow man, woman or child. Do it because you really don't expect anything in return. Do it well, because humanity really needs it and seems like lately needs extra kindness pretty badly.

Jesus said there are many paths towards the kingdom of heaven.
you live your life well, you go there, don't worry hitman, he allows good muslims in. he's got a special part for you with really high walls and 'paradise' on the door, so you'll think you are the only ones in there. :)

There are children born that are taught the faith of their parents.

That's what I am referring to actually

"I'd rather discuss it factually. There is no such thing as a Muslim, Christian or Jewish offspring at birth."

Unfortunately for 'facts', we Muslims believe there is something called Fitra.
The concept had been discussed several times but the idea in a nutshell is: Every offspring is born believing in one God, Allah Almighty, just like he's born with two eyes, one nose, two hands and two legs. It's something that's planted IN HIM or her from birth. His parents and society can infulence him to be a Hindu, Buddhist, etc.

So perhaps there's nothing as 'MUSLIM' as in practising Muslim who prays, etc, since these duties are obligatory only after puberty. But as Muslims, we believe that there's something as Islamic Monotheism in the kid when he's born.

I think the answer the Church would give is that it all depends on what is going on inside your soul.

In the Bible Jesus says, "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matthew 12: 30.

But He ALSO says, "For he who is not against us is for us." Mark 9: 40.

These SEEM like opposites, but I don't think they are.

To be against, is to be knowingly against, to understand and to reject.

A person who knows the truth of Christ and rejects it, will be punished.

But a person who misunderstands and doesn't see, but who seeks as best he can for the Truth, will not.

If you ever read C. S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, there is a passage in the Last Battle, in which an enemy soldier who believes in the False God, meets Aslan, the Lion, who is the Christ figure in the books.

When the enemy soldier sees Aslan, he greets Him as Lord. And he confesses his fault in worshipping the False God of his people.

But Aslan says something like, "All the worship that you gave to him, I credited to Myself."

We Catholics know that you don't get saved just because you are a Catholic.

""He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 16: 16.

But also, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7: 21.

We know that "No man comes to the Father but through Me." And we know that the ordinary means of salvation is through explicit Faith and Baptism, incorporation into the One Body of Christ, the Church. But God can find extraordinary means of calling those He loves to Him. And we know that He is full of mercy...to the point that He came to suffer and die for every single person on earth.

Our job as Christians is to proclaim the Gospel. But we cannot know what the end result will be for individuals, generally speaking. God reads and interprets the human heart, we cannot. And trying to usurp His place in Judgment is a terrible sin.

"Judge not, lest you be judged." Matthew 7: 1.

But HITMAN, is this really so different from the general belief and attitude among Muslims? I don't think that most Muslims would be indifferent if their child converted to Christianity.

I doubt most of them would say, "It doesn't matter. Not only Muslims go to paradise."

Wouldn't most of them--while they admitted that Allah makes the final decision--be upset and terribly worried about the fate of their child?

I think that if your son and mine crossed the lines into our respective religions, our attitudes and feelings would not be that different.

"I'd rather discuss it factually. There is no such thing as a Muslim, Christian or Jewish offspring at birth."

Unfortunately for 'facts', we Muslims believe there is something called Fitra.
The concept had been discussed several times but the idea in a nutshell is: Every offspring is born believing in one God, Allah Almighty, just like he's born with two eyes, one nose, two hands and two legs. It's something that's planted IN HIM or her from birth. His parents and society can infulence him to be a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.

So perhaps there's nothing as 'MUSLIM' as in practising Muslim who prays, etc, since these duties are obligatory only after puberty. But as Muslims, we believe that there's something as Islamic Monotheism in the kid when he's born.

This is a great post.

And I think Christians and Muslims agree on this, though we don't use the label "Muslim."

But the Church teaches that men naturally know through reason alone that God exists:

18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.

Romans 1: 18-21.

But though the Church teaches that we know the existence of God and His basic attributes through Reason, we only know the truths of Revelation, through Faith, which is a Gift of God.

So people are born with an knowledge and a sense of the existence of God (though infants don't "know" in terms of concepts till they are older). But no one is "born" a Christian.

Whoops, seems like I made a little mistake...
The sentence:
"His parents and society can infulence him to be a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. "
Is rather faulty. Since believing in Islamic Monotheism is in itself another use of the word Muslims (For example: all the prophets PBUT are Muslim). Therfore, the word 'Muslim' is not supposed to be there. Edited :cute:

Jeff, thanks for the valuable input

So if a Muslim does all the good deeds but rejects Christ (pbuh) as the son of God, the saviour, the one who got crucified on the cross for the sins of mankind et al, what is the "theoretic" stance of the Church regarding such an individual?

Well, the theoretical stance would be something like this:

If men rely on good deeds, we all go to Hell. In fact, Jesus tells a parable in the Bible about two guys, a Pharisee and a publican.

The Pharisee follows God's Law, he behaves well, he "obeys God".

The publican is a bad guy, a REALLY bad guy. Publicans were the guys who worked for the Romans collecting taxes. And in those days, collecting taxes meant using all kinds of underhanded and cheating and violent means to extract money from people--and then you got to keep a chunk yourself.

The Pharisee goes to the Temple and thanks God that he is not like the publican, but he obeys God's Law.

The publican is afraid even to go into the Temple. He stays outside and grovels in the dirt and beats his breast and says over and over, "God be merciful to me, a sinner."

Jesus says about the publican, "I tell you this man went home justified and not the other."

I think one big reason why Christians and Muslims tend to fail to understand each other in these discussions is that they see the world and the condition of mankind in different ways.

Muslims, it seems to me, see a world which is as God in His Sovereignty intended it. Men are imperfect, but they are supposed to be so. Following God's Law may be difficult but it is possible. And that is how one comes to be rewarded after this life.

Christians see a world which is Fallen. God made it perfect, but at the Beginning, men chose to disobey God and that poisoned the whole human race. We are lost in sin and cut off from God. It is impossible for us to follow God's Law. No one does it. And there are no marks like 100%, 75%, 25%. There are only two marks: 100% and 0. And everbody gets 0.

And that was the primary purpose of God's Law: to show us that we couldn't follow it. We are trapped and we need a way out. We need a Saviour, someone to transform us and lift us out of the pit.

The difference between the Pharisee and the Publican is no difference in God's eyes. Both are sinners. Both get a grade of 0. But the Pharisee KNOWS HE IS A SINNER AND HE CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF. And he reaches out to God for salvation.

As Jesus says in another place, "the First shall be Last and the Last shall be First."

Jesus is God's salvation. That's why He came. If you understand you have failed in God's eyes and you are reaching for His Salvation honestly day by day, then you may be finding Jesus, even if you don't know His Name. Perhaps.

But no one can be saved apart from Him. "No man comes to the Father but through Me...Take up your cross and follow Me."

"Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved."

I hope that helps and doesn't just make it harder to understand! :p

But I'm not sure from a practical point of view, it's all that different from your point of view. We have to accept God's law and works, not just "do good." A Christian who rejects Muhammad and the Quran will not be saved by any "good works". Unless perhaps he does so innocently.

If your child becomes a Christian (theoretically! :p ), will he go to paradise? Would you tell him, "The Prophet and the Quran don't matter as long as you do good deeds"?

But we agree that the ultimate Judge is God and He will decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. It's not like all the people who wear the badge that says "Christian" go to Heaven and those who don't don't.

Knowing Christ and accepting Him, loving Him and following Him knowingly is the Ordinary Means of Salvation. What God might do for those who are innocently blind we don't know and we don't know how many might be saved that way. Perhaps many. Perhaps few.

Jeff it made it very much easier to understand ... so basicly its not the good deed that counts, it whether a person accept that he is a sinner and wants god to be merciful on them.
So, if a person accepts Jesus yet he does everything bad. He fornicate, steal and cheats .. theorticly, would that make him enter heaven?
from my understanding to what you mentioned above, yet he would. But wouldnt that mean that there is no incentive for a person to do good? what is the reward?

Jeff it made it very much easier to understand ... so basicly its not the good deed that counts, it whether a person accept that he is a sinner and wants god to be merciful on them.
So, if a person accepts Jesus yet he does everything bad. He fornicate, steal and cheats .. theorticly, would that make him enter heaven?
from my understanding to what you mentioned above, yet he would. But wouldnt that mean that there is no incentive for a person to do good? what is the reward?

I can see how you might think I was saying that, but..

Noooo...

"If a man loves me, he will follow my commandments and my Father and I will come to him and make Our Home with him."

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Jesus is constantly making the Law "easier" (telling people not to stone adulteresses) and "harder" (telling people that divorce is impossible). The thing is that once you become part of Christ's body you have to LIVE your Faith. The standard is not just following this law or that law. The standard is perfection! If you aren't perfect, you are infinitely far from God--except that you have joined yourself, though unworthy, with Christ's perfect action and being.

You have to try to be Holy. Every day. And you have to live with failure at that and the knowledge that if it were not for the Love of Christ and the Grace of God, nothing you did would have any redeeming value.

"Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.'

But since all your actions are not IN RELATION TO CHRIST, they are PART of His Great Action in us and for us, their MEANING is different.

They are not the isolated actions of a proud individual. They are part of Christ's great action, which have value precisely because you no longer see them as worthy, but you try them anyway. You just try to love your neighbor better every day and cling harder and harder to God and let your pride and selfishness be burned up in God's Love.

"Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it."

You have to learn how to die to yourself:

"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit."

No, Faith in Christ without good deeds is nothing:

"Faith without works is dead."

But men are closed in on themselves and the power of their good deeds is constantly drained away by the power of sin. It's like walking around endlessly in a circle.

But when you take Christ's hand, it's like a door opening in the Universe: a way out of the trap of the endless circle into God's Infinity:

"Behold: I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will eat with him, and he with Me."

No, the standards for us are higher, not lower.

"Much will be required of the person entrusted with much,
and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing!"

The standards are higher and much more is expected of us than before. Everything, in fact. Total abandonment of ourselves. But we are not doing it alone. He is doing it in us and for us.

It's really a struggle to get out of God's way and let Him transform us from Inside. The disciples are constantly astonished at what Jesus is asking of them and they ask him, "But, Lord, if it's like that, who can possibly be saved?"

And Jesus answers, "For men it is impossible. But with God, all things are possible."

"Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden light."

Jeff, the bottom line is:

If you don't accept Jesus (pbuh) as your saviour, the son of God, the way, you won't join him in the afterlife?

Yes or No?

Jeff, the bottom line is:

If you don't accept Jesus (pbuh) as your saviour, the son of God, the way, you won't join him in the afterlife?

Yes or No?
from what i've learnt..there are many paths towards God. you live a good life, as a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jew, Hindu or even if you never heard of religion...then God lives in you and you have a right to go to heaven afterwards.
As long as you live a good life.

Jeff, the bottom line is:

If you don't accept Jesus (pbuh) as your saviour, the son of God, the way, you won't join him in the afterlife?

Yes or No?

There's no way around this answer:

"It depends what you mean."

***

If you are asking me:

"If a person rejects Jesus with their conscious mind as their savior, is it a sure thing that they will go to Hell?"

Then the bottom line answer is:

"No, it isn't a sure thing at all."

But if you are asking me:

"According to Christianity, is it fine to just reject Christ and get to heaven on being a good person?"

The answer is:

"No, it's not fine. If you know what you are doing or if you are in a position to know, you cannot be saved."

"Jesus answered and said to him...
'For God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life...
Whoever believes in Him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.'"

The point is: God won't call you on a technicality.

But there is no way to make excuses for yourself when you face Him.

Christianity says God loved each person in the world so much, and so much desired their salvation, that He became a man and died in torment to save them, so that He could live with them forever.

I can't judge you and neither can any Christian.

God made Heaven and Hell you know...
HE chooses who enters them. WE can't say who EXACTLY will enter Heaven or will enter Hell since WE are not aware of people's HEARTS.

That's, I think, what Jeff wants to say in a nuthsell, right :D?

Yes, I think in part that is what he means. In the end despite our good deeds (because who of us truly knows WHY we do them--only God does...if we do good deeds just to make ourselves look good and not for selfless means then really IS it a good deed)? Anyway, Jeff rocks!

Yes, I think in part that is what he means. In the end despite our good deeds (because who of us truly knows WHY we do them--only God does...if we do good deeds just to make ourselves look good and not for selfless means then really IS it a good deed)? Anyway, Jeff rocks!
exactly.
so if you are cocaine dealer and through your actions hundreds of people get hooked and maybe die, and then you fund four orphanages with your money, god is not gonna like your good deed much imo.
although he is the ultimate judge.

exactly.
so if you are cocaine dealer and through your actions hundreds of people get hooked and maybe die, and then you fund four orphanages with your money, god is not gonna like your good deed much imo.
although he is the ultimate judge.
After a muslim claims God will do this or that, they usually finish the sentence with "And Allah knows best".


And it's the same for us. God knows best because only He knows what's in a person's heart.

God made Heaven and Hell you know...
HE chooses who enters them. WE can't say who EXACTLY will enter Heaven or will enter Hell since WE are not aware of people's HEARTS.

That's, I think, what Jeff wants to say in a nuthsell, right :D?

Very, very close! :)

But of course, Jeff always likes to blab rather than put things in a nutshell! :p

The Jews don't really have a heaven or hell well not the same as Christianity and Islam.

Is that the reason why Jews love this life and wish not to die?


I'll stick to what Solomon said:

"The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17).



That is true but it doesn't say there is no hereafter.

from what i've learnt..there are many paths towards God. you live a good life, as a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jew, Hindu or even if you never heard of religion...then God lives in you and you have a right to go to heaven afterwards.
As long as you live a good life.

There is only one straight path, which is Islam.

Is that the reason why Jews love this life and wish not to die?

Err I don't know too many people, Jewish or not, who do want to die.

There are some Jewish group who do speculate about heaven and Gehenom (purgatory), .

is that a Hebrew word for purgatory?

Because Jahenam is the hellfire in Arabic...

is that a Hebrew word for purgatory?

Because Jahenam is the hellfire in Arabic...

Yes.

Although I'm not comfortable to use Wiki. It does give some insight to the etymology of the word

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Is that the reason why Jews love this life and wish not to die?

Are you really asking that question?