http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_AAQd01mk.

Allah Akbar.

I'm sure boycotting cheese, shouting out death threats and burning Danish flags had nothing to do with this. This rage only chases people away from religion, I'm Muslim and seeing the hate in the faces of the protestors was absolutely revolting.

Al Hamdulillah, if anything led to this, it's the good Muslims who decided that being better Muslims will benefit religion more than all that mentioned above.

There is nothing wrong with boycotting, it is one of the methods.

There is nothing wrong with boycotting, it is one of the methods.

Fine boycott if you want - it's peaceful, but don't burn flags, shout atrocities and display hate and violence. That is so UNISLAMIC and as Umkhalid said, it goes in direct conflict with our duties as Muslim to spread the message of Islam, it scares people off. If thousands revert with all of this happening anyways, imagine how many more would revert if we did not exhibit violence and hatred.

Al Hamdullilah either way :).

Good news...Hamdullah

Why do muslims/christians concern themselves with 'spreading' the light?

There is nothing wrong with boycotting, it is one of the methods.


Yes you are correct . Look to history of India and call of Mr Ghandi for boycotting British products.

I'm sure boycotting cheese, shouting out death threats and burning Danish flags had nothing to do with this. This rage only chases people away from religion, I'm Muslim and seeing the hate in the faces of the protestors was absolutely revolting.

Al Hamdulillah, if anything led to this, it's the good Muslims who decided that being better Muslims will benefit religion more than all that mentioned above.

Allahu Akbar....Wal hamdulilah.......

umkhalid, if it's not for protesting, rioting, burning flags and embassies and boycotting of MILLIONS of raging Muslims all over the world those Danish who reverted to Islam by thousands they wouldn't have done so.

Those thousands of Danish who reverted to Islam when they saw such reactions of those millions of muslims they became very keen to find out who is that Prophet which is so much dear for the muslims, they wondering if only drawing a cartoon can have such a reaction, there must be a secret behind that Prophet, so they go about finding more and more about the Prophet Mohammad:PBUH:and Islam then Allah swt revealed the truth into their hearts and revert to Islam.

If all muslims are like you umkhalid, may be Islam will not spread an inch away from Makah.

Icetea.. when you say "turning".. you are using the present. You shouldn't quote video titles blindly unless you know they are accurate.. if you don't want to look like a fool that is.

The only mention of converts the man uses is that they were only a handful 25 years ago.. and today there are "thousands". Out of 6 million Danes. :hmm:


Muslims in Denmark Feb 08


Now if I had to guess, that would put anyone OFF turning to Islam and it also makes me wonder if these people are original Danes. I highly doubt it.

And I'm positive that what is happening over the cartoons puts WAY more people off rather than draw them to Islam.

Before 9/11, many many people never heard of Islam. Then, you have many millions of people who hear about it, see it and suddenly have to have an opinion on it. Many will be curious and want to ask more.. some of these will convert. But many many more had the very opposite reaction. They will see the rage, the killings, the death threats and they recoil and they have a very very bad opinion of it all.

And this is what makes me laugh. It's that you would rather not care about the huge numbers who hate anything to do with islam, the how's and why's that is.. because you are busy counting the scraps .. you are busy counting the change that fell on the floor. And like a child, you shout.. "I'm rich!"

And all I can do is smirk :hmm:

On the contrary, the number of people forming a good opinion of Islam is more than the number of people recoiling.

Their curiosity leads them to read more and to want to understand more what the true nature of Islam is. Then they realize that all the rage and killing that is seen on TV all the time is not real meaning of this relegion. They do not necessarily convert, but atleast they know about the fanatics out there.

In my time here in NZ, I have met 14 people who have converted to Islam in the past few years, either through reading and asking around or just spending time with muslims.

On the contrary, the number of people forming a good opinion of Islam is more than the number of people recoiling.

Their curiosity leads them to read more and to want to understand more what the true nature of Islam is. Then they realize that all the rage and killing that is seen on TV all the time is not real meaning of this relegion. They do not necessarily convert, but atleast they know about the fanatics out there.

In my time here in NZ, I have met 14 people who have converted to Islam in the past few years, either through reading and asking around or just spending time with muslims.

agree

the people who convert to islam are the ones who read enough about it, to know that these burning and terror actions are not side-by-side with islam's teaching...

On the contrary, the number of people forming a good opinion of Islam is more than the number of people recoiling.

Their curiosity leads them to read more and to want to understand more what the true nature of Islam is. Then they realize that all the rage and killing that is seen on TV all the time is not real meaning of this relegion. They do not necessarily convert, but atleast they know about the fanatics out there.

In my time here in NZ, I have met 14 people who have converted to Islam in the past few years, either through reading and asking around or just spending time with muslims.
That's 14. Good.

How many have you met who would recoil from even talking to a hijabbed woman?

I mean no disrespect. If I recoiled, :rolleyes: my whole life would be very different. But even locally, it's very hard to change people's minds once they've made it up on Islam. Ask Minerva, ask Braiki, ask tripletee.

You may see the handfuls of converts and say 'wow'. I see the masses of people who want nothing to do with islam or muslims.

I'm not trying to compare numbers. Please understand my point here. What I'm saying is, it's about high time that instead of mistakenly thinking that events that bring death and destruction are really bringing people to Islam, one should look at the other side of the coin. How can you rejoice the convertion of a few and ignore the way the rest are beginning to detest it? (And then look at that as some kind of victory? :hmm: ) If people are converting because of these events, look at the huge damage it is causing and the millions who are not and will not. And then ask.. "why?"

More good than bad? I doubt it. Very much doubt it.


That is my point.

agree

the people who convert to islam are the ones who read enough about it, to know that these burning and terror actions are not side-by-side with islam's teaching...
Oh but according to clouds and a few others like El Ray.. it is.

So bugger me.. what the hell am I to think?

I guess it depends what muslims I ask. :p

How many have I met who recoiled from me? Honestly, zero.

I have worked here, I've lived in two different cities, I go to uni here. All the people I met were friendly and nice. they did not recoil from me because I am a muslim. Some asked questions, some were more intrested and it turned into a discussion, but I havent been attacked because my faith, thank goodness.

When the recent Teddy bear incedient happened, a co-worker wrote a letter to the local newspaperto point out that this whole icident is caused by fanatics.

If I have met such people in my time here in NZ, as well as the 14 converts, then there is an even larger number in the rest of the world.

People are free to form their opinion, and I highly doubt that in our world today, the number of close minded people is larger than the open minded population. They search, read and understand, then form their opinion. Prejudice still does exist, but not as much as before.

Besides, what's the big deal if there are some converts?

Why do you think it's a big deal?

I never said it was. I'm pointing how completely ignorant it is to think that events of violence are the best way to spread the word of islam.

umkhalid, if it's not for protesting, rioting, burning flags and embassies and boycotting of MILLIONS of raging Muslims all over the world those Danish who reverted to Islam by thousands they wouldn't have done so.

Now, clouds will be the last person I introduce to my friends if I wanted to talk to them about anything related to Islam. (sorry clouds).


Also, people won't attack you because of your faith. That's not the way it works (on this side). The huge majority are more likely to respect your freedom of religion (!) and will just keep their thoughts to themselves.

But if you think that these incidents are doing a favor for Islam, I suggest you think again.

Thalia, Islam is spreading and it's the fastest growing religion in the world today, time for you to accept this fact. :)

As someone said Islam is a magnet to the truth seekers.

Quran doesn't demand belief but invites belief, that is the beauty of it.

umkhalid, if it's not for protesting, rioting, burning flags and embassies and boycotting of MILLIONS of raging Muslims all over the world those Danish who reverted to Islam by thousands they wouldn't have done so.

So you seriously think the Danes converted because they saw this on TV:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-02/08/xin_3602030606330201954111.jpg

http://hodja.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/islamic_rage_boy.jpg


:no: It scares me to see people displaying this much hate. I thank God a million times I know Islam is nothing like what these people show it to be.

Sheikh Mohammed Al Ghazali may God have mercy on his soul once said:
"Islam's name is being ruined in the name of Islam."

It's so true it hurts.

Besides, what's the big deal if there are some converts?

[120] Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allâh that is the (only) Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'ân), then you would have against Allâh neither any Walî (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

So the opposite makes it a big deal!

Thalia, as icetea said the fact remains that Islam is the fastest growing religion worldwide and you can't hide the flamming sun with a coin!!

and remember another fact that only the ones Allah swt loves will be guided to Islam, the rest who die as non-muslims are the fuel of hellfire no matter how good are they in this life.

my sincere wish for you Thalia is to announce Shahada before you pass away as I feel that you are a step away from it, so just be brave and take this step damn it.

and surely you will never regret it.

Thalia, as icetea said the fact remains that Islam is the fastest growing religion worldwide and you can't hide the flamming sun with a coin!!

and remember another fact that only the ones Allah swt loves will be guided to Islam, the rest who die as non-muslims are the fuel of hellfire no matter how good are they in this life.

my sincere wish for you Thalia is to announce Shahada before you pass away as I feel that you are a step away from it, so just be brave and take this step damn it.

and surely you will never regret it.

:hyper::hyper:


Thank you clouds for your kind invitation, but I must politely decline.

And now, stop drinking that crazy juice.

This is so happy news Walah :hyper: They chose the right path.


Oh but according to clouds and a few others like El Ray.. it is.


It's El Rey :rolleyes:
And yes i still want wilders to be dragged to the desert, take out his nose and eyebrows hair, take a photo of him then behead him :angel: . And when are you going to embrace Islam Thalia ? I'll do a party for you :D Hijab will be cute on you indeed :love:.


UmKhalid those pics are really cool. They are touching those people really love the prophet PBUH masha2allah :)

clouds, you're good...
You ignore verses of the Holy Qura'n cause you feel like it.
You say you won't stop smoking cause you feel like it and that smoking ain't Haram.
And you say women should be beaten if it's required (twice I guess) and justify the beating by verses of the Qura'n.
It's just really sad clouds...

For the matter at hand, please refer to verse 62 of Surat al Baqara and verses 113, 114 and 115 of Surat A'l Imran.
They're quite self-explanatory and very obvious in content...I guess I have posted them a hundred times on the Sabla but well, a hundred and one time:
62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
113. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
114. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
115. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

It's funny how this thread is already has some prejudice and assumptions...:rolleyes:

I never said that I agree with rioting and burning flags. If you remember, I was against the beheading of Wilders and all this.

What I dont understand, is why you are trying so hard to disprove that Islam is infact spreading in Denmark and anywhere else?

Ok there are some who want nothing to do with Islam. So what? Their choice.

They prefer to be blindfolded rather than to admit the facts. I can feel their boiling blood for this news Lol which i luuuuuuuuv :p

If the aim is to be balanced and fair when finding out the number of Muslim converts, then I'm for it completely.
If the aim is to say there are no significant numbers of converts to Islam anyhow (which is a not true as far as my knowledge extends) then I'm quite against it.

For the matter at hand, please refer to verse 62 of Surat al Baqara and verses 113, 114 and 115 of Surat A'l Imran.
They're quite self-explanatory and very obvious in content...I guess I have posted them a hundred times on the Sabla but well, a hundred and one time:

Thread, you can't take verses from the Quran and ignore other verses, in the Quran there are specific verses and general ones, I blelieve and according to the tafseer that the ones you have posted refer to specific group of people of the book who don't believe in the Trinity (and don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins) as stated in below verses:


لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ نْصَار

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلَّا إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِنْ لَمْ يَنْتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allâh is the Messiah ('Isâ (Jesus)) son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ('Isâ (Jesus)) said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no Iilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.

And in another Quran verse which is very obvious in content ...


إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُولَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ

[98:6]Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur'ân and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikûn will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

And:

( ومن يبتغي غير الإسلام ديناً فلن يقبل منه وهو في الآخرة من الخاسرين )

85. If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

Also for the same book you people are quoting from:

They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the night time and they adore (Him). [3:113]

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all)good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. [3:114]

And whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it, and Allah knows those who guard (against evil). [3:115]

Does above quotes refer to people who worship Jesus?

UmKhalid those pics are really cool. They are touching those people really love the prophet PBUH masha2allah :)

Well, everyone sees things the way their hearts are.

I see this more touching:
http://www.islamnm.org/images/peacewalk.jpg

Such a hypocrite, Jew-Lover I am.

Are the followers of Christ (Christians) from the 'People of the book/scripture'?

That didn't answer my question, try again.

If you thought of the answer, it would answer your question.

Why are you afraid to give a direct answer?

I'm sure boycotting cheese, shouting out death threats and burning Danish flags had nothing to do with this. This rage only chases people away from religion, I'm Muslim and seeing the hate in the faces of the protestors was absolutely revolting.

Al Hamdulillah, if anything led to this, it's the good Muslims who decided that being better Muslims will benefit religion more than all that mentioned above.


Wisely said UmKhalid..................and those who become stronger in faith because of this are true Muslims not those who project violence, hate, and fear. For Islam to be the religion of Peace those who set a good example of leading purer lives are the ones I admire. I feel that good Muslims wil benefit in some ways from all this because it gives them the opportunity to become closer to God and to their religion.

IceTea, why not just share your views? My answer won't please you anyway.

Marianna, thanks, that's what I wanted to add:

and those who become stronger in faith because of this are true Muslims not those who project violence, hate, and fear.

I believe Leonardo da Vinco was right when he said: “Where there is shouting, there is no true knowledge.”

The thing is you have quoted Quran verses and then I asked you a question, so your answer is:

a) Yes
b) No
c) I don't know

Well, everyone sees things the way their hearts are.

I see this more touching:
http://www.islamnm.org/images/peacewalk.jpg

Such a hypocrite, Jew-Lover I am.

Those are celibrating not protesting . see the smiles on their faces :rolleyes:

If the aim is to be balanced and fair when finding out the number of Muslim converts, then I'm for it completely.
If the aim is to say there are no significant numbers of converts to Islam anyhow (which is a not true as far as my knowledge extends) then I'm quite against it.
The aim is: You want to throw numbers out off hand about how many supporters you got on your team? Fine! That's perfectly ok.

You want to attach converts to islam with rioting and violence? Sure! Fine! But personally I think who does that is: a) losing a few nuts in the head and b) playing a dangerous game. When people start equating a raging riot to "let's get islam on the news so we have a couple more converts" it gets dangerous and it gets absurd.

It gets dangerous because fanatics like clouds start to think that's the way to spread islam.

It gets absurd because it creates more haters than lovers.


I know some people have a chip on their shoulder when someone like me starts to criticise.. :hmm: but really, I've tried ever so hard to explain myself through out this thread.

Even if you have a few converts directly due to the violence, it is a white elephant. For every convert, you have thousands more being pushed away. Most non-muslims I know think Islam is a strange and violent religion. But that's ok. Cos you get a few converts. :rolleyes:

THAT is my point.

(I know you don't think like that thready.. ;) )

Thread, you can't take verses from the Quran and ignore other verses

Tell that to yourself :)
ElRey, the verse you quoted is for apostates, none else :cute:

Well, the verse IceTea brought up talks about them. Who you call the people of the book are apostates now. ( Whoever believe in the trinity )

Apostate = Someone who joined Islam willingly as we know it after the prophet PBUH and left willingly...

God Dammit. I always get mixed between apostates, pagans and disbelievers :p . Anyway, I have a question for you Threadlike. The christians and Jews who don't believe in Mohammed :PBUH: as a prophet and Quran as the words of God, what do you think their position is ? shouldn't the true christians convert to Islam coz they have ( In the real bible ) the signs which tell them about our Prophet PBUH prophecy ? Do you think that anyone can be a christian and do things contradict with Islam ( drinking wine, having sex before marriage, ... ) Do you believe they are like muslims ? They are going to the same heaven ? Please enlighten us.

^Frankly, ElRey, I wish everyone is a Muslim.
I'm a mere human not God to 'enlighten' you on such information. He knows where He shall put His servants and how He shall judge them. But I believe that He gave us quite an interesting clue: And the clue says that He is most fair and that He is most merciful.

The verses I posted simply demonstrate that. They imply that whoever of the CHRISTIANS (and I don't think the good ones at the time of the prophet PBUH are very different from the good ones we have now) and the JEWS who have done GOOD in life and they believe in ALLAH (in my Tafseer I remember reading this being interpreted as 'monotheism' but well, tafseer books may differ) and the LAST DAY (notice, the belief in the message of the prophet PBUH was rather overlooked in both the verses which I find as quite an evidence that the verse points DIRECTLY to normal Christians and normal Jews). As far as I know, pre-marital sex is banned by Christianity...Christian people who believe in God and His Last Day and who do good deeds in their lives...I do not believe that Allah SWT will simply abandon all that they have done...It does not sound like His mercy. And I believe He will also allow them into the highest state of Paradise with all those who believed in His final True Message and who worked for it all their lives. It does not sound like His fairness.

The verse rather clearly states that 'not all are the same'.
That, in my opinion, is the basis of judgement in front of Allah SWT...
Or what do you think?

I think the point this thread is trying to discuss is that there are converts because of the movie Wilders made. At some point, it has turned into a discussion of rioting and other stuff.

guys guys guys guys, please stick to the topic
anymore off topics will be deleted :)

^Frankly, ElRey, I wish everyone is a Muslim.
I'm a mere human not God to 'enlighten' you on such information. He knows where He shall put His servants and how He shall judge them. But I believe that He gave us quite an interesting clue: And the clue says that He is most fair and that He is most merciful.

The verses I posted simply demonstrate that. They imply that whoever of the CHRISTIANS (and I don't think the good ones at the time of the prophet PBUH are very different from the good ones we have now) and the JEWS who have done GOOD in life and they believe in ALLAH (in my Tafseer I remember reading this being interpreted as 'monotheism' but well, tafseer books may differ) and the LAST DAY (notice, the belief in the message of the prophet PBUH was rather overlooked in both the verses which I find as quite an evidence that the verse points DIRECTLY to normal Christians and normal Jews). As far as I know, pre-marital sex is banned by Christianity...Christian people who believe in God and His Last Day and who do good deeds in their lives...I do not believe that Allah SWT will simply abandon all that they have done...It does not sound like His mercy. And I believe He will also allow them into the highest state of Paradise with all those who believed in His final True Message and who worked for it all their lives. It does not sound like His fairness.

The verse rather clearly states that 'not all are the same'.
That, in my opinion, is the basis of judgement in front of Allah SWT...
Or what do you think?

What i think is that there shouldn't be more than one religion at the same time. There only should be one. Otherwise, why do you think our prophet :PBUH: fought the jews and why did he ask them to embrace islam? Why did he ask christians of his time to Islam ? Why didn't he say ok these are jews and christians and they believe in God so let them. Let's not ask them to Islam coz no matter what, they are going to heaven if they did the true christianity or judism. Why did he say' If i lived i won't let any jew in the arab peninsula ? Why did he ask Ceacer andNagashi to Islam although they were christians ? I don't want to drift away of the topic but mods can make this a seperate thread and we shall discuss it in the Islamic Sabla as well. Coz am really interested in the Islamic view on the current other religions.

^The prophet fought the Jews because they betrayed the truce they had agreed with him on. They were a minority that posed a threat to the Islamic State at the time, more like Bin Laden is to America today. Following the logic you're implying I'm saying (yes, I know complicated sentence) then that means nobody should invite anyone to Islam. Totally not my point.

As per the Qura'n, if you are a good Christian or a Jew who practices his religion well and does good deeds, believes in Allah SWT and the Last Day then your work is not gone waste. You will get something in the end as per the verse's statement. But if you're aiming higher, aiming at something a little more than just 'good job' then this is what Islam is here for...To COMPLETE the message in full. It is our belief, mine and I'm sure yours. More like a student who aims for a B only to get a C. Only when you aim for an A will you at least be able to score a B...or if you're good enough and deserving then you will get your desired A.

Furthermore, you are now leading me somwhere where we reach a stage and say, 'You know what? Leave the Qura'n verses for one side now, the Christians are not the Christians and the Jews are not the Jews'. That simply goes against the whole context of the verse.

^The prophet fought the Jews because they betrayed the truce they had agreed with him on. They were a minority that posed a threat to the Islamic State at the time, more like Bin Laden is to America today. Following the logic you're implying I'm saying (yes, I know complicated sentence) then that means nobody should invite anyone to Islam. Totally not my point.

As per the Qura'n, if you are a good Christian or a Jew who practices his religion well and does good deeds, believes in Allah SWT and the Last Day then your work is not gone waste. You will get something in the end as per the verse's statement. But if you're aiming higher, aiming at something a little more than just 'good job' then this is what Islam is here for...To COMPLETE the message in full. It is our belief, mine and I'm sure yours. More like a student who aims for a B only to get a C. Only when you aim for an A will you at least be able to score a B...or if you're good enough and deserving then you will get your desired A.

Furthermore, you are now leading me somwhere where we reach a stage and say, 'You know what? Leave the Qura'n verses for one side now, the Christians are not the Christians and the Jews are not the Jews'. That simply goes against the whole context of the verse.

Threadlike no Jews or Christians will enter paradise never, the only souls entering paradise are Muslim souls.

Narrated 'Abdullah: While we were in the company of the Prophet in a tent he said, ''Would it please you to be one fourth of the people of paradise?" We said, "Yes." He said, "Would It please you to be one-third of the people of paradise?" We said, "Yes." He said, "Would it please you to be half of the people of paradise?" We said, "Yes." Thereupon he said, "I hope that you will be one half of the people of paradise, for none will enter paradise but a muslim soul, and you people, in comparison to the people who associate others in worship with Allah, are like a white hair on the skin of a black ox, or a black hair on the skin of a red ox." (Bukhari Book #76, Hadith #535)

So this means Qura'n verse contradicts the hadith.
You're in a LITTLE bit of a problem.

Threadlike no Jews or Christians will enter paradise never, the only souls entering paradise are Muslim souls.


maybe they have a walled paradise where they think they are the only ones. Jesus said that everybody who has lived a good life has the entrance to the kingdom of God. i do believe my grandparents are there. they lived a good life, sacrificed for their kids, prayed daily, never done any harm to anybody and showered love love and more love. yes, God has accepted them in his house in heaven. they weren't muslim.

So this means Qura'n verse contradicts the hadith.
You're in a LITTLE bit of a problem.

there is NO contradiction between the Quran and the Hadith ever.

the Hadith is the proper explanation of the Quran, read Ibn Kathir translation of the Quran, he translate all verses by giving quotes from Hadith.

the only religion that Allah swt accepts from a person that entitles him/her to enter paradise is ISLAM, and NO other religion besides Islam is accepted by Allah swt:

ال عمران (آية:19): ان الدين عند الله الاسلام وما اختلف الذين اوتوا الكتاب الا من بعد ما جاءهم العلم بغيا بينهم ومن يكفر بايات الله فان الله سريع الحساب

[3:19] Truly, the religion with Allâh is Islâm. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, then surely, Allâh is Swift in calling to account.

البقرة (آية:132): ووصى بها ابراهيم بنيه ويعقوب يا بني ان الله اصطفى لكم الدين فلا تموتن الا وانتم مسلمون

[2:132] And this (submission to Allâh, Islâm) was enjoined by Ibrâhim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya'qûb (Jacob) (saying), "O my sons! Allâh has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islâm (as Muslims - Islâmic Monotheism)."

oh well, i guess i'm not going to enter heaven then... :(

clouds, the first verse you mentioned has been discussed countless times in many threads...It refers to apostates, not others. The second verse refers to 'Islamic Monotheism'. Seems to talk about an event much BEFORE Qura'n and much before the complete message of Islam revealed to the propeht PBUH. I have bothered to read the verses you provided thoroughly. Have you HONESTLY bothered to check the ones I posted before?

It's not about Christians entering Heaven or not as much as it is about the concept...If God doesn't want them in, so be it. I would still be a Muslim...I would never rebel against His will because I don't think I'll have company up there (if He allows me to enter 'up there'). But the problem is that there is just a TOO CLEAR reference to the possibility of those who do good of the people of the book to enter Heaven in the Qura'n, it would sound very silly to completely throw the possibility against the wall.

ok so from your point of view clouds...
what if a christian has lived a totally good life but has never heard of islam? would they still be denied the gates of heaven?

oh well, i guess i'm not going to enter heaven then... :(


I am, I'm a righteous gentile:)

ok so from your point of view clouds...
what if a christian has lived a totally good life but has never heard of islam? would they still be denied the gates of heaven?

I've wondered about that. What about the people who have lived all their life without hearing of Islam? Like the some tribes in remote places that have no contact with the rest of humanity.

Tell that to yourself :)
ElRey, the verse you quoted is for apostates, none else :cute:

I didn't ignore any verses, if you noticed I said that the verses you have posted refer to specific group of people of the book not anyone.

But you have ignored the verses which I have quoted, can you tell me to whom it refers? Give straight answer.

As per the Qura'n, if you are a good Christian or a Jew who practices his religion well and does good deeds, believes in Allah SWT and the Last Day then your work is not gone waste.

How about if he/she believes in Allah SWT who is one of three?

Reply to PIB's question:

"We never punish until we have sent a messenger." [17:15]

So if someone never heard of Islam, they won't be punished.

That quote can also means that for every nation there will be a messanger to guide people, so they will not have an excuse.

Prophet Mohammed pbuh is the last and final messanger, so everyone should follow him.

i'm sure if i die and go to heaven, Mohammed will be my friend too, even though i am Catholic.

Prophet Mohammed pbuh is the way and the truth now.

He was sent as a mercy to All mankind not just for arabs, and the Quran is a book for all mankind. Islam is a universal religion.

IceTea, no Christian will tell you he or she believes in three Gods.
You can ask them.
Jeff had even repeatedly used the term Allah in his posts to communicate his points.
I gave straight answer...Yes, there is a group of the People of the Book who do good deeds, who believe in one God and the Last Day...And Allah will not deny them His reward. If you disagree with that, you are disagreeing with verse 3:115 of Surat Al Imran straight out.

No need to play games.

I meant one of three as in Trinity as stated in the Quran.

I'm not playing games. I don't usually do that when discussing the Qura'n, do you?
The Christians today say they believe in ONE GOD AND ONE GOD ONLY.
You can ask them. It's not a hidden fact.

Furthermore, the verse CLEARLY refers to PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (ahil al kitab). Makes no differentiation between the 'sects' of Christians and Jews. But rather makes the distingushing in terms of HOW the people of the book behave and what they believe in. You know what Ice? We have discussed this countless times. Your argument always fails to convince me simply because it is too frail for the clarity of the verse at hand...So, give it up. I'll believe what I believe you can believe what you want. Fair deal?

IceTea, no Christian will tell you he or she believes in three Gods.
You can ask them.
Jeff had even repeatedly used the term Allah in his posts to communicate his points.
I gave straight answer...Yes, there is a group of the People of the Book who do good deeds, who believe in one God and the Last Day...And Allah will not deny them His reward. If you disagree with that, you are disagreeing with verse 3:115 of Surat Al Imran straight out.


Threadlike, people who believe that Jesus is God are called mushrikeen (those who associate others with God). And shirk is the only sin that is unforgivable by God. Below are the verses that God tells the Christians to desist in believing in the Trinity.

When the Qur'an refers to the Christians who will go to heaven, He refers to the Christians that believe in God, the same way that Muslims believe in God. That is absolute monotheism, where Christ is simply a Prophet of God and no more. This does not include the people who believe in the Trinity.

There is a sharp distinction between the Christians that God refers to in the Qur'an who are to be rewarded and those who the Qur'an condemns. The former are those who, just like the Muslims, believe in one God, with NO concept of the Trinity. The latter, are called mushrikeen and are portrayed in the verses that IceTea presents.

O People of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of God anything but the truth. he Messiah Jesus son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in God and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist! It will be better for you: for God is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171])

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [Qur'an 5:73])


The reason why we have so many different versions of Christianity is due to historical reasons, primarily the Council of Nicea. Here, the majority view that Jesus is the son of God, and thus God, defeated the minority view that Jesus is simply a Prophet of God. Thus shaping the belief of mainstream Christianity. However, till this day there are some Christians who still hold the minority view, that God is God, and Jesus is a Prophet (the same as we Muslims do). Other factors that include changing Christianity from its original form, is the seeping in of paganism historically. For instance, the holy day of the Christians is called SUNday. The same day that the pagans used to worship the SUN god- which is why it is called Sunday.

Thanks Sophis, you have made it very clear though the verses which I have quoted to thread were self explanatory but it looks he has wrong understanding.

Now I'm confused.
If the Qura'n says, 'The people of the book are not the same'...Some worship one God, and believe in the Last Day...
And I say that kind of applies to Christians and Jews as both of them worship one God and believe in the Last Day.
The Qura'n narrows it down and says, 'Those who do good deeds of them'.
And I say that applies to Christians and Jews who worship one God, believe in the Last Day and who do good deeds.
The Qura'n says, 'They shall get their reward FOR THAT'
And I say, that sounds okay, God is fair...He will not completely let all their good deeds go waste. Afterall, they believed in Him, had worshipped Him but in another way to quite a close extent and they had done good deeds for His sake and not for others.

Moreover, if you check Asbab al Nizool (by al Syouti) you will find quite an astounding inference to WHY another verse of similar meaning (verse 2:62) was revealed:
"It is transferred through Abu Hatem and Adany in his Musnad on the behalf of Ibn Abi Najeeh he said:
Salman said: I asked the prophet PBUH on people of religion I have been with so I mentioned thier prayers and their worship and verse 2:62 was revealed.
Also, Al Wahdy transferred from Abd Allah bin Katheer on behalf of Mujahid he said:
When Salman told the story of his friends to the prophet PBUH, the prophet replied: 'They're in Hell'. Salman said, 'Then the world darkened on me' and the verse 2:62 was then revealed."

So what am I missing here?

Now I'm confused.
If the Qura'n says, 'The people of the book are not the same'...Some worship one God, and believe in the Last Day...
And I say that kind of applies to Christians and Jews as both of them worship one God and believe in the Last Day.
The Qura'n narrows it down and says, 'Those who do good deeds of them'.
And I say that applies to Christians and Jews who worship one God, believe in the Last Day and who do good deeds.
The Qura'n says, 'They shall get their reward FOR THAT'
And I say, that sounds okay, God is fair...He will not completely let all their good deeds go waste. Afterall, they believed in Him, had worshipped Him but in another way to quite a close extent and they had done good deeds for His sake and not for others.



Thready,

And this includes the Jehova's Witness? The Mormon Christians?

Even the Roman Catholics themselves burned Protestants at the stake (during reign of Mary I of England) and executed them with the rise of Protestantism, since the Protestants were seen as deviations from the 'true faith' of Catholicism.

So who are the 'true' Christians that get to heaven, whom God refers to in the Qur'an? The Catholics? Protestants? Mormons? Greek Orthodox? Unitarianists?

There are so many faces of Christianity, they are not the same. There have been so many innovations in Christianity throughout history. Some Christians will be rewarded since they prayed to the one true God without the concept of Trinity. Others, which is now mainstream Christianity, will not be the same as potrayed in the verses.

Qur'an is very clear about it. The whole purpose of the Qur'an was that God wanted to correct people's beliefs since they were going astray. It corrected the Jews by affirming that Jesus was indeed the spirit of God and his miraculous birth, and that Mary was a virgin and exalted in the eyes of God. It corrected the Christians by rejecting the concept of the Trinity.

Now if people choose to ignore the words of God, then on the day of judgment they only have themselves to blame. If you pray to the one true God, then God will reward you for this with heaven. Now if you pray to Jesus and he is unable to give you heaven since he is not God, then you have a problem. It's the same with all the others who prayed to the Sun, Moon, Hera, Isis, Pharoah, Aphrodite; and on the day of judgment they find out that those "dieties" they worshipped are powerless and are unable to give them heaven.

I think, sophis, your analysis of the Trinity may be too simplistic, even for Muslims scholars. We do not believe--perhaps some people did in the time of the revelation of the Quran--in a Trinity consisting of God and two others. Christian doctrine shared then and shared today by the overwhelming majority of Christians, is that the One God exists in Three persons. Each of those persons is completely God; they are not each one third of God, or one God of Three.

We introduce no divisions into God, nor does the concept of the Trinity imply that we place others beside the One God.

There are many Muslim scholars of Christianity who--addressing Christians GENERALLY today--accept that we both believe in One God. Those one hundred and fifty or so of many countries who signed the Common Word document--which is to be the basis for some exciting upcoming Catholic-Muslim dialogue over the next few months--accept it:

Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.

The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour. These principles are found over and over again in the sacred texts of Islam and Christianity. The Unity of God, the necessity of love for Him, and the necessity of love of the neighbour is thus the common ground between Islam and Christianity.

http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1

It's very important to grasp the essence of this approach:

BECAUSE Christians IN GENERAL believe in One God as do Muslims, we have the basis for a shared approach to a Common Word.

This must be despite the doctrine of the Trinity, since all major Christian groups today--Catholic, Orthodox, Traditional Protestants, Evangelical Protestants, Pentecostalists--adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet these Muslims scholars and many others find a link between our two faiths in that we both believe in One God.

One of the most famous Muslim signatories is Aref Ali Nayed, who is also a scholar of Christian philosophy, including St. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest philosopher/theologian of Catholicism. Here he is on the question again. He critiques a Catholic scholar (a Trinitarian, of course) for talking as if the Catholic God and the Islamic God are different:

strive to show Martinetti that Catholic normative doctrines and documents clearly state that the God of the Muslims and that of the Christians is the very same God, and that his false contrast between “our God” and “your God” is not only unfair, but constitutes a rejection of authoritative (for him) Catholic teachings in this regard;

...It is hoped that my notes will make clear to Martinetti that there is no need to appeal to a normative transcendental Reason, above God, for Muslims to be rational, or for our God to be considered rational. It is hoped that Martinetti will ultimately see that our God is One!

It's worth noting that Nayed's whole response it titled, "Our God and Your God is One." In case there is any confusion, the meaning of that statement as you can see from the passage above, is: The God you Catholics worship and the God Muslims worship is THE SAME GOD.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/93245?eng=y

Sophis, I REALLY don't mind if you or other Muslims conclude that Christians in general (who are virtually all Trinitarians) are guilty of shirk. That's for Muslims to decide, not me.

My point in these dialogues is only to point out in support of people like Threadlike and Braiki that many Muslim scholars do not agree with you, but conclude that even though the doctrine of the Trinity is a mistake, or illogical, or a doctrine which addresses unknown things about God's nature, it does not prevent Christians and Muslims from concluding that they worship the same One God.

One further note:

My guess is that one of your Quran translations is inaccurate. Pickthall's translation of 4: 171 is

say not "Three"

and this is the norm for translations of this passage.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/pick/004.htm

I suspect--you can tell me if I am right--that the passage uses an Arabic word for "Three" and not actually for "Trinity". This is important, because the two words are not interchangeable. The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity does not say "Three", but rather "Three-in-One" or "One Manifested in Three" which is absolutely vital.

Muslims like Ayef who have taken the time to study Christian doctrine deeply have mostly concluded that what we believe about the Trinity does not mean that Christians and Muslims do not believe in the same God.

Jeff, thanks for your post.

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, that is well-known. Yes, we all do believe in the same God. However, the Islamic-Quranic perception of the Trinity is very different from how Christians see it. Jesus as the son of God is understood within the Islamic context to mean that he is divine. This would suggest from a Muslim point of view that Christians hold to different Gods actually existing. Also, the fact that Christians do view Jesus as God and not a Prophet, like us the Muslims, is another fundamental difference. The Quran is very rigorous in its attack on the doctrine of Trinity, which it views to be undermining true monotheism. There is an intense Islamic emphasis on the uncompromising oneness of God throughout the Qur'an.

Obviously, this is where you and I differ. That's why you follow Christianity and I, Islam. The way these two religions perceive the doctrine of Trinity is different. Muslims completely reject it and view that it falls into the ambit of 'shirk', while the Christians see it to be perfectly in line with absolute monotheism.

That is not to say that Muslims do not believe that Christians are the people of the book. Nor are Christians polytheists worshipping a different God. They are the people of the book and monotheists. But Muslims also believe that the mainstream Christian belief system has also been corrupted, and to argue otherwise goes against the whole Quranic message.

P.S. I really hope that I have not offended you. :p

No, of COURSE you haven't offended me! :p

I am a big fan of yours.

And I am a big believer in being honest and open about disagreements between our religions.

Like I have said many times, even when Ice Tea says I am a polytheist going to Hell, it doesn't offend me. He is following what he sees as the truth and operating out of concern, even if he comes off as harsh--or sometimes even unreasonable! :p

I agree that Muslims reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

What I don't agree with is that all Muslims agree that the STANDARD UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRINITY is shirk. If it were, then we wouldn't be believing in the same God at all and Ice Tea would be 100% right. We would be simply polytheists. We wouldn't really share belief in the One God at all.

What I am pointing out is that many Muslim scholars think that we worship the same One God even though we are mistaken about the Trinity. In other words, our understanding of the Trinity may be confused, but since it doesn't equal three gods, it is not shirk.

That's why I don't agree that from the Muslim point of view our actual understanding of the Trinity means that we believe in Three gods. No: that's the point Nayed is making: the God that Christians believe in and the God that Muslims believe in is the Same God, the One God. And that's from his Muslim point of view.

Like I said, I am happy with whatever opinion you have--don't worry about offending me! I am not easy to offend. From my point of view, you are my sister and I have never had a bad thought about you.

What I am pointing out is that many Muslim scholars think that we worship the same One God even though we are mistaken about the Trinity. In other words, our understanding of the Trinity may be confused, but since it doesn't equal three gods, it is not shirk.



Jeff, I think this verse pretty much sums up of how Muslims view all this:

There is among them a section who distort the book with their tongues so that you would think it is part of the book. But it is no part of the book. And that say, 'That is from God', but it is not from God. It is they who tell a lie against God and they know it. [Qur'an 3:78]

Muslims believe that it is because of distortions in the earlier scriptures due to their later communities, God found it necessary to reveal His word one final time to correct the distortions and blasphemous claims.

Muslims have a very strict uncomprimising view of monotheism, unlike another religions. This is why we absolutely prohibit idols, statues, and portraits, for this very reason. The fact that someone may pray to 'Allah/God' by facing a statute, is considered 'shirk'. Even if someone is praying to Allah/God alone, but through a statute or a saint or a prophet, are all considered shirk. To depend on someone else other than God is considered as 'shirk'. Being proud or arrogant is also seen to be unforgivable, since this is seen as believing in the so-called power of oneself, rather than the power of God. We also prohibit depictions of the Prophet for fear that this might lead to some people considering him to be divine or idolatry. Islamic monotheism is incredibly strict. So it is understandable why we consider other doctrines of faith to be falling into this 'shirk' umbrella. In the Quranic-Islamic perspective, it is only through this very strict concept of monotheism and complete submission to God, can there be salvation. It is this fundamental concept which distinguishes us from the other religions.

Can I sum up the Christian position to this debate Sophis ?

We don't care what you think about our religion.
We don't care whether you think we are going to heaven or not.

In short, we just don't care.

Can I sum up the Christian position to this debate Sophis ?

We don't care what you think about our religion.
We don't care whether you think we are going to heaven or not.

In short, we just don't care.

Well that's obvious, that's why you are Christian.

I was just correcting Threadlike, and talking to Jeff about the Quranic-Islamic view on monotheism.

Now if you hold a different view on monotheism, doesn't mean Muslims share it. That's why Islam and Christianity are different religions.

After all, I really don't think that the Christians believe that Muslims are going to heaven since we do not believe in the fundamentals of Christianity and that is the Trinity, the death and resurrection of Jesus and Jesus being our saviour. :p

Don't get me wrong Sophis, I think you are the cat's whiskers.

But this endless drumbeat of how Christians have perverted their scriptures, how they follow a false ideology, yada yada yada is getting a bit tiresome.

We don't care what you (collectively, not you specifically) think.

Don't get me wrong Sophis, I think you are the cat's whiskers.

But this endless drumbeat of how Christians have perverted their scriptures, how they follow a false ideology, yada yada yada is getting a bit tiresome.

We don't care what you (collectively, not you specifically) think.

It isn't an endless argument or debate, these are the cornerstones of Islamic faith. This fundamental concept of how the Islamic faith views monotheism is what distinguishes it from its earlier faith, Christianity, which is why we reject many of the Christian beliefs.That is why it is being repeated, because it is so intrinsic to Islamic tradition.

I was just presenting how Muslims view all this, it doesn't mean you are to accept it. Rather, it is merely to show why are we so different today. :cute:

It's an interesting series of observations about the nature of monotheism and the use of images for worship.

But we were talking about the Trinity, which is a very specific doctrine.

Ice Tea's position is, as I understand it:

The Trinity equals Three Gods. Therefore Christians who believe in the Trinity (virtually all) do not worship the One God. They worship three gods and are polytheists.

Threadlike, Braiki and others disagree.

You seemed to agree with Ice Tea.

So my response to you is just this: many Muslim scholars disagree with you. They believe that Christians are not necessarily practioners of shirk because they believe in the Trinity. It's not that Muslim worship Allah and Christians worship three gods.

It's that Muslims and Christians both worship Allah, despite the doctrine of Trinity, which is muddled and wrong, but not the same as polytheism.

So, you were correcting Threadlike. And I was responding with evidence that FROM A MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE, Threadlike can say with perfect legitimacy: "I disagree with you sophis. I think you are wrong."

I was correcting your correction.

I'm not saying you can't think what you think. I am merely giving evidence from Muslim scholars that Threadlike doesn't have to accept your correction if he is unconvinced by it. There are Muslim scholars who agree with him and not with you.

So my response to you is just this: many Muslim scholars disagree with you. They believe that Christians are not necessarily practioners of shirk because they believe in the Trinity. It's not that Muslim worship Allah and Christians worship three gods.

It's that Muslims and Christians both worship Allah, despite the doctrine of Trinity, which is muddled and wrong, but not the same as polytheism.

So, you were correcting Threadlike. And I was responding with evidence that FROM A MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE, Threadlike can say with perfect legitimacy: "I disagree with you sophis. I think you are wrong."

I was correcting your correction.

I'm not saying you can't think what you think. I am merely giving evidence from Muslim scholars that Threadlike doesn't have to accept your correction if he is unconvinced by it. There are Muslim scholars who agree with him and not with you



I agree with you and those Muslim scholars. Christians definitely do believe in the same God as Muslims do. I think the problem here is that there is some confusion on what does 'shirk' mean. The Islamic 'concept' of shirk is in levels and takes different forms where even a practicing Muslim can have an element of shirk in his way of thinking. See, in Islam, 'shirk' means having some corruption and some sort of deviation from the pure monothiestic belief of God. So for instance, any dependency on someone other than God is considered 'shirk' in Islam. E.g. going to a witch and using magic, even if a Muslim, is shirk. Being proud and arrogant and believing in oneself is considered shirk. So it is a corruption in a monotheistic belief which is 'shirk'. This is why Muslims see Christians practicing 'shirk', even though they also believe in the same God as the Muslims. Hence, Chistians are not in the same category as the polythiests or athiests. The former being a believer of God, the latter rejecting God.

Threadlike can believe in all his wants. However, to ignore all the verses that refer to the Trinity is, I do not think, a correct way of reading the Qur'an - that becoms a pick and choose game ignoring the whole message of the Qur'an, which must be taken collectively.

People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" [Quran 4:171]

Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" [Quran 19:34-35]

They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [5:72-73]



I am sorry, but the verses are very clear, no one can go saying that the Qur'an accepts the Trinity unless they have not read the Qur'an. If you check the first verse, God calls the Christians 'the People of the Book' confirming that they do believe in Him (the one true God), however He also does not agree with the way they believe and tells them to desist believing in the Trinity.

Anyway, Jeff, do Christians believe that if a Muslim knows all about Christianity, but still rejects the Trinity, the death and resurruction of Jesus and that Jesus is their saviour - will that Muslim go to heaven? :p

maybe they have a walled paradise where they think they are the only ones. Jesus said that everybody who has lived a good life has the entrance to the kingdom of God. i do believe my grandparents are there. they lived a good life, sacrificed for their kids, prayed daily, never done any harm to anybody and showered love love and more love. yes, God has accepted them in his house in heaven. they weren't muslim.

I think that what is important to emphasis is that in the Qur'anic reference it is not just the followers of Muhammed :PBUH: who are called Muslims. "Islam" in the Quranic sense is all who have submitted themselves to the one true God. From Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. The Prophet :PBUH: was not the founder of a new religion in the Quranic sense. He was merely preaching what all the great Biblical figures and other messengers of God had preached - which is true monotheism. So when God says in the Qur'an that it is only people who follow Islam who will enter heaven, He means all who have submitted themselves to God from the beginning of time and not exclusive to who we now term as 'Muslims'.

This verse is a good example:

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. [Qur'an 3:52]

In the above verse, even though that was during the time of Jesus (PBUH), before the Prophet's :PBUH: time, God refers to Jesus' disciples as Muslims, to mean "the submitting ones".

The term 'Muslim' as we know now it only appeared later to distinguish the followers of Muhammed :PBUH: from the other faiths.

I hope that this has cleared up. :)

I've wondered about that. What about the people who have lived all their life without hearing of Islam? Like the some tribes in remote places that have no contact with the rest of humanity.

UmKhalid has already answered, they are not judged. God is just, it
will depend on how much you know.

This also means, people who have a very distorted image of Islam (i.e. that Muslims are terrorists), are also not judged.

However, those people who know the true message of the Prophet :PBUH: and still reject it, are judged. For example, the Quraysh of Mecca, who knew that his message was one of truth, and yet disbelieved because of arrogance and self-interest.

God knows best. But the way you are judged or accountability will depend on how much you know about Islam.

I agree with you and those Muslim scholars. Christians definitely do believe in the same God as Muslims do. I think the problem here is that there is some confusion on what does 'shirk' mean. The Islamic 'concept' of shirk is in levels and takes different forms where even a practicing Muslim can have an element of shirk in his way of thinking. See, in Islam, 'shirk' means having some corruption and some sort of deviation from the pure monothiestic belief of God. So for instance, any dependency on someone other than God is considered 'shirk' in Islam. E.g. going to a witch and using magic, even if a Muslim, is shirk. Being proud and arrogant and believing in oneself is considered shirk. So it is a corruption in a monotheistic belief which is 'shirk'. This is why Muslims see Christians practicing 'shirk', even though they also believe in the same God as the Muslims. Hence, Chistians are not in the same category as the polythiests or athiests. The former being a believer of God, the latter rejecting God.

Threadlike can believe in all his wants. However, to ignore all the verses that refer to the Trinity is, I do not think, a correct way of reading the Qur'an - that becoms a pick and choose game ignoring the whole message of the Qur'an, which must be taken collectively.



I am sorry, but the verses are very clear, no one can go saying that the Qur'an accepts the Trinity unless they have not read the Qur'an. If you check the first verse, God calls the Christians 'the People of the Book' confirming that they do believe in Him (the one true God), however He also does not agree with the way they believe and tells them to desist believing in the Trinity.

Anyway, Jeff, do Christians believe that if a Muslim knows all about Christianity, but still rejects the Trinity, the death and resurruction of Jesus and that Jesus is their saviour - will that Muslim go to heaven? :p

No, I didn't say the Quran "accepts the Trinity".

What I said is that the Quran does not say that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is shirk and that those who believe in it are not monotheists.

I find that most Muslims don't understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. If they are open to understanding it, they usually still reject it but they also see that what the Quran is objecting to is not the Trinity as Christians understand it.

For example, there is one verse you left out that provides a clue:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden

Sura 5: 116

Now, perhaps this verse refers to a certain sect of Christians in Arabia at the time, but this is not the common Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Mary has nothing to do with the Trinity.

Now let's take a look at 4: 171.

First, as I have mentioned, I think your translation is no good. Your translation says "Trinity" and all the others I have looked at say "Three".

Christians don't say that God is Three. We say He is One. But He is also Three-in-One.

Again, perhaps the Quran is addressing some abuses among Christians at the time. But this is not the doctrine of the Trinity as we understand it.

Now look at 5: 72-73.

It says not to put God alongside two others to make a Trinity. We condemn that also. Whoever says that there are other Gods besides God or that God can be divided into Three is condemned by my religion as much as yours.

Now I am limiting my discussion to the question of the Trinity, which has nothing to do with Jesus. The question of Jesus being God IS directly contradicted by the Quran, as I see it. But not the Trinity as we understand it.

But I think you found the correct formulation on your own.

An orthodox Muslim cannot believe that the Christian belief about the Trinity is correct. But he CAN believe that though it is incorrect, it is not shirk, so long as it is no the kind of Trinitarian belief condemned by the Quran.

And orthodox Muslim MUST believe that Jesus is not God and that Christians sin or at least are mistaken when they attribute Divinity to Him.

But the emphasis seems to be on EXALTING a man to the level of God.

In practice, this is not how Christians see it. We believe that God chose to become a man. Which is a different thing.

I think what you are doing is reading these verses as key and reading other verses in the Quran which speak favorably of Christians in a minimizing way.

You are misapplying the principle of "ayat clarfies ayat" so as to come out with an unduly negative appreciation.

But again, I think we are more on the same page than we seem to be.

You say this:

"~Hence, Chistians are not in the same category as the polythiests or athiests."

And I think that hits the mark. If belief in the Trinity were REALLY a belief in three gods, we would--clearly--be polytheists.

We worship God, we do good works and therefore we have the possibility of being judged righteous on the last day. SO LONG AS, our misunderstanding is innocent, i.e, out of confusion rather than malice and stubbornness.

And only God will be able to judge that. Not you.

But of course all this is from the Muslim perspective.

You ask what our Catholic belief is about what will happen to Muslims who reject the Christian truths proclaimed by the Church about salvation through the death of Christ, His Divinity, etc.

The answer is the same. Are you innocently mistaken? Are you doing the best you can to follow all the graces God has given you?

If so, He will not abandon you! After all, He loved you enough to become Man, and to suffer agony and death for you. That is our teaching.

My expectation is that we will all be surprised by who we find sharing the Eternal Reward with us if we are blessed enough to get there. And perhaps by who is not sharing it also.

It would not astonish me at all if through the grace and mercy of God I find myself welcomed into His Presence, to discover sophis and others of my wonderful, beautiful Muslim friends in that place where all misunderstanding are cleared away, all divisions are abolished, and all tears are wiped away.

Like I have said many times, even when Ice Tea says I am a polytheist going to Hell, it doesn't offend me. He is following what he sees as the truth and operating out of concern, even if he comes off as harsh--or sometimes even unreasonable! :p



Don't say thing I didn't say Jeff. For us muslims we don't tell anyone on personal level that you are going to hell or heaven. Only Allah swt will do that, but we present to you the truth stated in the Quran and decide for yourself what to follow:

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [Qur'an 5:73])

God is one of three here refers to the Trinity, or the Father, son and holy spirit, isn't that what you believe?

No the thing is you say all three are one, that is your belief but the truth is no such thing as Trinity from the Islamic point of view, meaning God is one but not one as in the Trinity concept. Therefore, believing Jesus is God is a shirk (even if you say Jesus is part of God as in Trinity) and that is because Jesus pbuh is only a messanger and 100% human.

Sura 5: 116

Now, perhaps this verse refers to a certain sect of Christians in Arabia at the time, but this is not the common Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Mary has nothing to do with the Trinity.

Now let's take a look at 4: 171.

First, as I have mentioned, I think your translation is no good. Your translation says "Trinity" and all the others I have looked at say "Three".

Christians don't say that God is Three. We say He is One. But He is also Three-in-One.



Could be that there are other sects who believe Mary is God too.

But you believe Mary is the mother of God, while she is not mother of God.

On the other hand Sura 5:116 says also you believe Jesus is God , what the Quran says that if you believe that Jesus is God then you are taking Gods beside Allah because Jesus is not God. In the Bible he didn't even claim divinity or said I'm God worship me.

And orthodox Muslim MUST believe that Jesus is not God and that Christians sin or at least are mistaken when they attribute Divinity to Him.

But the emphasis seems to be on EXALTING a man to the level of God.

In practice, this is not how Christians see it. We believe that God chose to become a man. Which is a different thing.


You say this:

"~Hence, Chistians are not in the same category as the polythiests or athiests."

And I think that hits the mark. If belief in the Trinity were REALLY a belief in three gods, we would--clearly--be polytheists.

We worship God, we do good works and therefore we have the possibility of being judged righteous on the last day. SO LONG AS, our misunderstanding is innocent, i.e, out of confusion rather than malice and stubbornness.

And only God will be able to judge that. Not you.

But of course all this is from the Muslim perspective.



You've beautifully clarified it. Yes, it is the divinity of Jesus that we Muslims have a problem with.

Definitely God is the judge of all things, and he is the best of judges.

I've always liked the Christians though, I believe they have a lot of goodness and faith and are closest to the Muslims. After all, it was a Christian ruler who had a lot of faith and kindness to provide asylum to our Prophet :PBUH:.

But, as IceTea said, as Muslims we need to provide to you the Quranic point of view of all this, and you decide for yourselves. There is no use of being a good Muslim if we do not give the true picture of Islam and keep Islam hidden. :p

Don't say thing I didn't say Jeff. For us muslims we don't tell anyone on personal level that you are going to hell or heaven. Only Allah swt will do that, but we present to you the truth stated in the Quran and decide for yourself what to follow:

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [Qur'an 5:73])

God is one of three here refers to the Trinity, or the Father, son and holy spirit, isn't that what you believe?

No the thing is you say all three are one, that is your belief but the truth is no such thing as Trinity from the Islamic point of view, meaning God is one but not one as in the Trinity concept. Therefore, believing Jesus is God is a shirk (even if you say Jesus is part of God as in Trinity) and that is because Jesus pbuh is only a messanger and 100% human.

Wonderful! Nothing makes me happier than to say that I was wrong and I apologize. I am sorry if I mischaracterized your belief about my going to Hell and I take full responsibility.

I accept from the Islamic point of view, there is no such thing as the Trinity. But I also say that we emphatically DO NOT put two others BESIDE God as the verse you cite suggests. We condemn that also. There is only One God and none beside Him.

Believing that Jesus is God is not the Trinity, but the Incarnation which is a different question.

Yes, I agree that from the Islamic perspective that is shirk.

BUT I think the key evil that the Quranic verses proclaim is of associating partners. This is what polytheists do.

Polytheists say that there are many gods.

So if I were to do like the ancient Romans and say that an Emperor was a god and worship him I would be being a polytheist. Clearly. I am adding another god to the One God.

But from an Islamic perspective, I believe it is possible to look at it this way.

Jesus is only a human being.

If a Christian believed in One God and put, for example, Jesus and then Mary and other human beings beside God and raised them to His level, then He would be guilty of shirk in every sense. He would have Objective Polytheism, but he would also have a polytheistic spirit.

But if a Christian believed that the One God became a Man, this would be wrong, but it would be a mistake about what the One God DID. It wouldn't be polytheism.

And if the mistaken belief was sincere, then it wouldn't count as shirk from a subjective point of view, just as doing wrong innocently never does. He would be TRYING to render honor to the One God, but just doing it in a mistaken way. So, if he did good deeds, he would be rewarded on the Final Day.

I don't say that you have to believe that. I merely say that you or another Muslim such as Threadlike or Braiki COULD believe that and be a perfectly good Muslim. And I think it makes much more sense out of ALL the verses about the Abrahamic faiths than any other.

But I really want to thank you for the tone of this last post you wrote. I have never felt closer to you than when I read it. Something about the way you spoke seemed to me to be reaching out in a more human and more deeply respectful and patient way than I sometimes get from you.

I very much appreciate it.

Yes, sophis, I appreciate your witness because for me your sincerity shines through. And I appreciate Ice Tea's singlemindedness too. I am glad that I know you both.

Well, my friends (if I may take the liberty of calling you that), I am going to leave it at that!

I have my religious obligations to tend to. No internet for another week.

But thank you for the good discussion, I always rejoice in it.

Good bye all and God bless.

Can I sum up the Christian position to this debate Sophis ?

We don't care what you think about our religion.
We don't care whether you think we are going to heaven or not.

In short, we just don't care.

Are you the only Christian in the world?

It's Muslims duty to tell the truth and Christians right to know it. I hope you understand, so at the day of judgement you will not have an excuse.

But if a Christian believed that the One God became a Man, this would be wrong, but it would be a mistake about what the One God DID. It wouldn't be polytheism.

And if the mistaken belief was sincere, then it wouldn't count as shirk from a subjective point of view, just as doing wrong innocently never does. He would be TRYING to render honor to the One God, but just doing it in a mistaken way. So, if he did good deeds, he would be rewarded on the Final Day.

.

That is why Allah swt sent Prophet Mohammed pbuh as a final messanger and the Quran as a final book to guide people to the straight path which they get deviated from by believing in the Trinity and believing Jesus is God (incarnation) as Christians are concerend.

So be like this Christians who didn't reject the truth. :)

[5:83] And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.

[5:84] "And why should we not believe in Allâh and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islâmic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them))"

[5:85] So because of what they said, Allâh rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers).

And don't be like these people.

[5:86] But those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they shall be the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire.

This is part of a movie on Islam, and the following are few minutes on the dialogue between the Christian King and the Muslims when the Muslims were seeking asylum from the Christians, since they were being persecuted by the polytheists. I think it portrays in an excellent way the closeness between the two faiths. :)


The Message (1976) by Moustapha Akkad clip 6-18


Enjoy :flower:

I totally agree with Thalia , events like 9/11 and terror action do more harm than good. From events like this, the Americans justify their war against Iraq and Afghanistan and the misleading pictures that are displayed by umkhalid are exactly what the American’s want others to think of Islam.

There was a movie I saw once. Forgot the name of it but it showed how Islam came to the Gulf and was spread. Mohammad was not shown instead you saw out of the camera of what Mohammad would see and he did not speak but there was reponses as if he spoke. Not sure what the movie was called but was in English.

It's very old...called "The Message", starring Anthony Quinn. (Al Risaala in Arabic). I still like it though :)

Ahhh yes! Very good movie. I liked it allot.

Sadly, however, its director passed away in a terrorist attack in Jordan.

That is why Allah swt sent Prophet Mohammed pbuh as a final messanger and the Quran as a final book to guide people to the straight path which they get deviated from by believing in the Trinity and believing Jesus is God (incarnation) as Christians are concerend.

So be like this Christians who didn't reject the truth. :)

[5:83] And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.

[5:84] "And why should we not believe in Allâh and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islâmic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them))"

[5:85] So because of what they said, Allâh rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers).

And don't be like these people.

[5:86] But those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they shall be the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire.


Thanks for your friendly and heartfelt witness, but I will have to disappoint you again, and precisely because of my love of the Truth.

[And Jesus said] "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
Where (I) am going you know the way."
Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
Jesus said to him,

"I am the Way
and the Truth
and the Life.

No one comes to the Father except through me.
If you know me, then you will also know my Father.
From now on you do know him and have seen him."

John 14: 3-7.

In this Truth and on this Way and with this Life, I will live and die.

Jeff, every prophet was the truth at his time, prophet Moses pbuh was the truth at his time, Prophet Jesus pbuh was the truth as his time and prophet Mohammed pbuh was the truth at his time (and till final day). It means all prophets delivered the truth from Allah to their people.

Thanks, Ice Tea, but I've never seen anything remotely like that statement from any prophet.

Prophets are very careful not to personalize their message. They are very careful to point away from themselves and toward God. They are anxious that no one think that THEY PERSONALLY are the message...rather it is what God is communicating through them.

And prophets don't go around saying "If you have seen me, you have seen God."

Prophets are MESSENGERS, not THE MESSAGE.

I believe you are sincere and you are trying your best to walk the Right Path and to encourage me to do so. But I don't think you understand Jesus of Nazareth.

[12:108] Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "This is my way; I invite unto Allâh (i.e. to the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) with sure knowledge, I and whosoever follows me (also must invite others to Allâh i.e. to the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism with sure knowledge). And Glorified and Exalted be Allâh (above all that they associate as partners with Him). And I am not of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh; those who worship others along with Allâh or set up rivals or partners to Allâh)."

Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: said the same thing in above verse, that is the same meaning what Jesus pbuh meant.

And with your argument no where in the Bible Jesus directly claim devinity or told his people to worship him. If it is true he would have personalize being God and would have say "I'm God and worship me".

[12:108] Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "This is my way; I invite unto Allâh (i.e. to the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) with sure knowledge, I and whosoever follows me (also must invite others to Allâh i.e. to the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism with sure knowledge). And Glorified and Exalted be Allâh (above all that they associate as partners with Him). And I am not of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh; those who worship others along with Allâh or set up rivals or partners to Allâh)."



Dear Sir Ice Tea,

I shall be excused for my findings,
I don't know who's translation you are using?
Islam means peace.
Monotheism , it mean to me, those who beleive in oneness of God (Most appropiate word is Allah) , there is none but only one god are Monotheist.
Please make correction , if I am wrong.
The word Islam has make a complex here in my view.