*Edited for the purposes of a new thread*

women!!!!! no wonder the Prophet:PBUH:told us that they are lacking brains and religion!!!!

women!!!!! no wonder the Prophet:PBUH:told us that they are lacking brains and religion!!!!

Don't you dare insult women. The first person who protected the Qur'an and preserved it was Hafsa bint Umar. The first person who encouraged the Prophet and looked after him was Khadija bint Khuwailid. Aisha (ra) is one of the most reliable interpreters of Islamic law and narrated more than 2000 Hadith of the Prophet and extending to one-fourth of the norms of Shariah law. The Prophet referred to her when advising his Companions: "Seek science from this red-colored young woman". Um Salama also gave much ready and sound advice to the Prophet, extending to even military matters, and is famed for her intelligence, good judgement and sound counsel. The first person who was a martyr for the sake of Islam was a woman, Sumayah.

You really believe that if the Prophet believed that women were deficient in intelligence, then he would have told his companians to seek the science of their own religion from a woman? That he would ask for even military advice from a woman? This religion would not have been protected, preserved and as strong now, if there weren't these amazing women who supported the Prophet :PBUH:.

^^ Sophis I didn't insult women I merely reminded you what the Prophet (peace be upon him) told us about women.(ناقصات عقل ودين)

^^ Sophis I didn't insult women I merely reminded you what the Prophet (peace be upon him) told us about women.(ناقصات عقل ودين)

Continue believing that women are stupid and not as "wise" and "rational" as men are when it goes contrary to the whole history of Islam :rolleyes:. I suggest you go and read a good biography of the Prophet :PBUH:.

Even our Jihadi friends can't beat the fact that the first person who died for the sake of Islam (shaheed) is a woman and not a "rational, wise, religious" man. And they still say that women are sub-ordinate to men.

Didn't it ever occur to you that some of these hadeeth have been corrupted for societal or political reasons or were specific to one occasion? Especially if they go directly contrary to the Qur'an which says that women and men are equal (verses (33:35), (4:1), (6:98), 7:189), (3:195, 4:124), (6:98), (16:72), (30:21), (49:13), (53:45), (75:39), (78:8), (50:7)).

^^^sophis take it easy coooool down if the Prophet (peace be upon him) in an AUTHENTIC hadith said women lacks brains and religion that means one thing to me that they do.

we hear and obey.

^^^sophis take it easy coooool down if the Prophet (peace be upon him) in an AUTHENTIC hadith said women lacks brains and religion that means one thing to me that they do.

we hear and obey.

Even if it goes directly contrary to the word of Allah, the Qur'an? Which is heavier in the scales for you, the word of Allah or one "authentic" hadeeth?

^^of course the Quran then the Hadith no doubt about it.

but Allah swt told us "وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحى علمه شديد القوى"

so the Prophet (peace be upon him) doesn't speak from himself whatever he told us is a revelation from Allah swt.

so whatever proven authentic hadith we say we hear and obey.

^^of course the Quran then the Hadith no doubt about it.

but Allah swt told us "وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحى علمه شديد القوى"

so the Prophet (peace be upon him) doesn't speak from himself whatever he told us is a revelation from Allah swt.

so whatever proven authentic hadith we say we hear and obey.

So khalas all those Quranic verses that say that men and women are equal and those other authentic hadeeth which praise women such as telling men to take their knowledge from a woman take priority over this singular hadeeth. :cute:

Men and women are NOT equal and you know that for yourself as a muslim sophie.

or shell I remid me what Allah swt said " الرجال قوامون على النساء"

Come on clouds.. say.. "Women are intelligent" .. say it!

Try! You can say it... you know you want to.. :hyper:

Clouds the hadith does not mean that women are less rational or less religous. It means that they sometimes cannot perform for example prayers or fasting for several reason like menstrual cycle and puerperium. This is for the religion side and for the mental side, women are more emotional than men and for this reason Islam says the witnessing of two women is equivalent to witnessing of one man.

Men and women are NOT equal and you know that for yourself as a muslim sophie.

or shell I remid me what Allah swt said " الرجال قوامون على النساء"

Of course they are equal. The verse says that men are the maintainers and supporters of women, since men used to go work and bring money home, thus financially supporting their women.

Now, that's no longer applicable, women now work and they support their families. :cool:

i haven't read that hadeeth or other hadeeths saying women and men, but i must say female sophis speaks the sense of ten men, not two.

Islam says the witnessing of two women is equivalent to witnessing of one man.

Who said that? The medieval jurists who thought that women are "irrational" and "weak"?

I am surprised when it came to the hadeeth, they didn't need two witnesses. They just took Aish's witness, they didn't need another woman. She even corrected the accounts given by other Companions and her scrutiny of the legal decisions of jurists caused them to endorse her views.

Reminds me I need to go back to another thread to answer Wudjub.

Clouds the hadith does not mean that women are less rational or less religous. It means that they sometimes cannot perform for example prayers or fasting for several reason like menstrual cycle and puerperium. This is for the religion side and for the mental side, women are more emotional than men and for this reason Islam says the witnessing of two women is equivalent to witnessing of one man.

I know that sam, but I want to wind up sophie and Umkhalid!!!*smile*

but all in all men and women are NOT equal in Islam, this does not mean that women are less grade than men but it means each one has their own duties to fulfil.

I know that sam, but I want to wind up sophie and Umkhalid!!!*smile*

but all in all men and women are NOT equal in Islam

I know. :cool: That's why in most of the secondary school exams the women surpass the men. That's why in SQU they even put the entrance grade much higher for women, coz they are scared that the women will take all the seats up. (unless they have changed now!)

We sure aren't equal. :p

lets go back to topic sophie,
I know you are very intelligent and bright and you out-weigh men in this at least me....so what do you think about Denmark issue would you boycott them?

lets go back to topic sophie,
I know you are very intelligent and bright and you out-weigh men in this at least me....so what do you think about Denmark issue would you boycott them?

I don't buy Danish products in the first place. Let alone to boycott.

Who said that? The medieval jurists who thought that women are "irrational" and "weak"?

I am surprised when it came to the hadeeth, they didn't need two witnesses. They just took Aish's witness, they didn't need another woman. She even corrected the accounts given by other Companions and her scrutiny of the legal decisions of jurists caused them to endorse her views.

Reminds me I need to go back to another thread to answer Wudjub.

Quran said that ( واستشهدوا شهيدين من رجالكم فان لم يكونا رجلين فرجل وامراتان ممن ترضون من الشهداء ) (Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all)

Do not analogise Aisha's testimony with other women witness since she is the mother of All muslims.

I don't buy Danish products in the first place. Let alone to boycott.

that's a very clever answer you don't buy them in the first place!!!

that means you boycott them because of the mocking cartoons.

at least that's good we have now two women on our side in ES Bint al arab and sophis who go for boycotting denmark.

who is the next muslim female?

Quran said that ( واستشهدوا شهيدين من رجالكم فان لم يكونا رجلين فرجل وامراتان ممن ترضون من الشهداء ) (Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all)

Do not analogue Aisha's testimony with other women witness since she is the mother of All muslims.

You left out the rest of the verse :rolleyes:. The following is the only verse which equates a man's testimony to two women.



" you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other."

"When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm." [2:282]

The verse is quite clear that this is LIMITED to commercial transactions, not criminal evidence or otherwise. This is because women were not accustomed to commercial transactions, which were often complex and laden with business jargon. However, Shaykh Al-Azhar Mahmud Shaltut (1893-1963) said that since women are now routinely involved in such transactions, then their testimony is equal to that of men. (Taken from the book "The Islamic Quest for Democracy, Pluralism and Human Rights). Therefore, as Dr Jamal Badawi says it is now the duty of a fair judge to be guided by this objective when assessing the worth and credibility of a given testimony, regardless of the gender of the witness. A witness of a female graduate of a business school is certainly far more worthy than the witness of an illiterate person with no business education or experience.

Furthemore, most Qur'anic references to testimony (witness) do not make any reference to gender. Some references also specify fully equate the testimony of males and females. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544348&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

As for nowadays, where some courts do not allow women to testify or equating a man's testimony to two women in criminal proceedings, that has nothing to do with the Qur'an, it is their own ijtihad and therefore based on judicial precedent, which can be changed.

Anyway, Wudjub that's your answer. I'll copy and paste it to the other thread.

oh we have a very smart Quran interpreter here.

The verse is quite clear that this is LIMITED to commercial transactions, not criminal evidence or otherwise

So you're saying that commercial transection is far more important than crimes or whatever and that's why two women testimony is required but in crirminal situation we just need one woman testimony. Strange to be honest.

This is because women were not accustomed to commercial transactions, which were often complex and laden with business jargon

so they are accustomed to crimes and guilts, are not you insulting women by saying such words :)

However, Shaykh Al-Azhar Mahmud Shaltut (1893-1963) said that since women are now routinely involved in such transactions, then their testimony is equal to that of men

I like the fatwas that puplished by Al-zhar scholars. e.g. dealing with usury is halal, nursing work colleague is halal, selling wine is halal unless you do not drink it ect.


I advise you to seek knowledge and fatwa from expert scholars whom Allah meant when he says (وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُولِى الاَْمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ)

All scholars agree that two women testimony is equivalent to one testimony given by a single man so everyone who says otherwise is contradicting with an islamic ruling.

So you're saying that commercial transection is far more important than crimes or whatever and that's why two women testimony is required but in crirminal situation we just need one woman testimony. Strange to be honest.

You're wrong. In Surah Nur verse [24:6-9] there is an explicit reference that equates the testimonies of the male and female (actually it gives higher priority to the female's). And this is a criminal case.

Apart from the one reference on commercial transactions, there is no other place where the issue of difference between gender is brought in the context of testimony. According to the Qur'an, it does not make any difference whether the person testifying is a male or female

You can read more at: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203515453417&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar


I like the fatwas that puplished by Al-zhar scholars. e.g. dealing with usury is halal, nursing work colleague is halal, selling wine is halal unless you do not drink it ect.

I advise you to seek knowledge and fatwa from expert scholars whom Allah meant when he says (وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُولِى الاَْمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ)

All scholars agree that two women testimony is equivalent to one testimony given by a single man so everyone who says otherwise is contradicting with an islamic ruling.

No. I already provided you with the references from Islamonline (see above). You are the ones who needs to check their information. Further, the Al-Azhar scholar, is not any small scholar that spews nonsense, that was Shaykh Al-Azhar Shaltut (the highest authority in the Sunni world) (1893-1963).

You're wrong. In Surah Nur verse [24:6-7] there is an explicit reference that equates the testimonies of the male and female. And this is a criminal case.

(As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, then the testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth ** The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying )

could you enlighten me where equating is mentioned in these two verses?

Have you read the tafseer of them?. They are adressing those spouses who accuse eachother of comitting adultery. No thing is related to man or woman testimony.

BTW, Allah (swt) explained the reason for not equating woman and man testimony. (that if one of them errs, the other can remind her)

Is that reason only valid for commercial transections. Does that make a lot of sense to you?

(As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, then the testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth ** The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying )

could you enlighten me where equating is mentioned in these two verses?

Have you read the tafseer of them?. They are adressing those spouses who accuse eachother of comitting adultery. No thing is related to man or woman testimony.

As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth; And yet a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie.

And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that the thing he saith is indeed false, And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.


It is related to a man and a woman's testimony. It says that a man needs to swear five times. Then, for a woman to avert punishment, she needs to swear five times. And if she does, then her oath is the one that takes priority, not his.

I just wanted to show you that different circumstances render different weight to testimonies. In cases where a woman is accused of adultery, her testimony takes priority. In a commercial transaction then it says two men to a woman. But as I said from islamonline and al-Azhar, that has changed due to our modern society because the woman may be the female lawyer specialising in commercial transactions, and a man may know nothing about business. In other cases, the Qur'an makes no distinctions or reference to gender.

dear sister

In these verses Allah mentioned the requirment of witnesses regardless their genders but he explained in the other verse that a woman's testimony is equal to a half of a man's testimony. Quran is self-explanatory for your information.

dear sister

In these verses Allah mentioned the requirment of witnesses regardless their genders but he explained in the other verse that a woman's testimony is equal to a half of a man's testimony. Quran is self-explanatory for your information.

I know that the Quran is self-explanatory that is why the verse EXPLICITLY mentions "qardh" "dayn" to mean a debt or commercial transaction. It is very specific. It is right there in the verse, and it does not generalize or extend to other situations.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى

وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا

So you mean that any ruling that is set up for a specific situation cannot be applied for any other situations which are similar to the original situation. It's clearly misinterpreting what Quran says. You are just taking from the Quran things that suit you. It reminds me of the man who was asked for the reason that makes him not to pray, he replied ' because Allah says ويل للمصلين and he did not read the following verse :)

So you mean that any ruling that is set up for a specific situation cannot be applied for any other situations which are similar to the original situation. It's clearly misinterpreting what Quran says.

I am not misinterpreting anything. If you check the links I gave you, this is what Sheikh Qaradhawi says when it comes to criminal matters,

"Moreover, the majority of jurists maintain that a woman's testimony does not count in major crimes and in matters which do not relate to the rule of retaliation in kind.

"The exclusion of woman's testimony, altogether, from cases of major crimes, and cases requiring retaliation in kind, is meant to protect women and steer her away from scenes of crime and aggressions against souls, honor and property." http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544348&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

Firstly, he mentioned that in scenes of crime the majority of jurists exclude a woman's testimony altogether. That clearly has no relationship with the Quranic verse.

Secondly, he said that this is what the majority of traditional jurists say. Which means this is their ijtihad, their own reasoning due to the general society, and precedent. It is clearly not based on the Qur'an, but based on the general Arab/Muslim culture of being protective as he mentions above. It does not mean that this cannot change.

Plus, I don't understand why you keep saying that I am misinterpreting. I am the one providing you with evidence and proof from the well-known scholars. Go read the links I provided.

Sorry but I'm not convinced about Shiekh Al-Qardhawi's reasoning (with all respect to him). It's exactly the same way of thinking of scholars who did not ban usury as they said that modern life forces us to accept usuary transections. Apparently, they think that Allah's rules are changeable and flexible. Am afraid that some of them will permit adultery or robbery excusing that difficulities of life nowdays force us to break up some rules.

Sorry but I'm not convinced about Shiekh Al-Qardhawi's reasoning (with all respect to him). It's exactly the same way of thinking of scholars who did not ban usury as they said that modern life forces us to accept usuary transections. Apparently, they think that Allah's rules are changeable and flexible. Am afraid that some of them will permit adultery or robbery excusing that difficulities of life nowdays force us to break up such rules.

Samdawy, from a common sense perspective. Whose witness testimony is better - the testimony of a female commercial lawyer who understands legal and commercial terms and therefore what the contract exactly contains, or the man who is an engineer who does not understand legal terminology?

So should we take two female commercial lawyers to be equal to the testimony of one male engineer who knows nothing about contracts?

I am just pointing out that life has changed in the 7th century. What would have ensured that the transaction is securely documented at that time, is different today.

Totally illogical

The witness should not be specialist in the issue that he is required to give his testimony. For example, two partners would like to sign a contract so islamically they need two male witnesses or one male plus two females. The job of these guys is to witness the process of contacting therefore, in any case, one of the partners denied the contract or breached it, the witnesses would be requested to give their testimonies.
And this is applicable for any situation that involves witnesses.

Totally illogical

The witness should not be specialist in the issue that he is required to give his testimony.

Samdawy, the world of commercial transactions is complex nowadays (between companies, government bodies, etc). You need lawyers to prepare the document and do the witnessing itself, because they are the ones who will understand what is exactly in the contract. :p So you need lawyers who are the specialists. Not anyone off the street.

Obviously, if you aren't doing the normal modern transactions, and are just two simple men, one wanting to borrow from the other, then that is a different case. :)

Just incase... could a mod split the thread into a new one instead of delete the "off topics"?

This is a very interesting debate and I'm enjoying every minute.

It is very evident how some ideas are more rational than others... while other ideas want to grasp to favourable situations, defend that situation with poor evidence.. just because it's appealing to them and their ideas of women being lesser, deficient beings..

For the record, I read this too somewhere.. that the whole witness thing was only meant for business transactions.. I think it was a discussion with threadlike..

Of course I have nothing to say after Sophis's wonderful replies, she explained the 'Lack of brain' the hadeeth meant. I notice how the subject changed after she turned out to be right by asking her if she boycotts or not. :rolleyes: Anyway, thank you sister.

(The lack of religion means that women pray less than men, since we get a time off once a month. Not that we love God less or any thoughts based on no evidence some men like to hold.)

Can I add one comment here.

It will be women like Sophis who will redeem Islam from the situation it finds itself in today.

Samdawy, the world of commercial transactions is complex nowadays (between companies, government bodies, etc). You need lawyers to prepare the document and do the witnessing itself, because they are the ones who will understand what is exactly in the contract. :p So you need lawyers who are the specialists. Not anyone off the street.

Obviously, if you aren't doing the normal modern transactions, and are just two simple men, one wanting to borrow from the other, then that is a different case. :)

Have a look at this hadith

عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ -صلى الله عليه وسلم- أَنَّهُ قَالَ « يَا مَعْشَرَ النِّسَاءِ تَصَدَّقْنَ وَأَكْثِرْنَ الاِسْتِغْفَارَ فَإِنِّى رَأَيْتُكُنَّ أَكْثَرَ أَهْلِ النَّارِ ». فَقَالَتِ امْرَأَةٌ مِنْهُنَّ جَزْلَةٌ وَمَا لَنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَكْثَرَ أَهْلِ النَّارِ.
قَالَ « تُكْثِرْنَ اللَّعْنَ وَتَكْفُرْنَ الْعَشِيرَ وَمَا رَأَيْتُ مِنْ نَاقِصَاتِ عَقْلٍ وَدِينٍ أَغْلَبَ لِذِى لُبٍّ مِنْكُنَّ ». قَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا نُقْصَانُ الْعَقْلِ وَالدِّينِ قَالَ « أَمَّا نُقْصَانُ الْعَقْلِ فَشَهَادَةُ امْرَأَتَيْنِ تَعْدِلُ شَهَادَةَ رَجُلٍ فَهَذَا نُقْصَانُ الْعَقْلِ وَتَمْكُثُ اللَّيَالِىَ مَا تُصَلِّى وَتُفْطِرُ فِى رَمَضَانَ فَهَذَا نُقْصَانُ الدِّينِ

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone MORE DEFICIENT IN INTELLIGENCE and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)

Obviously, the propht :PBUH: did not specify the condition where a testimony of two women is equal to a testimony of one man but he generalized this rule. There is a general rule in the science of Fiqh Basis saying that (If we have an absolute evidence or ruling and there is no mention that this ruling is limited to a specific situation, we should use this ruling as general not to sepcify it or limit it for particular cases).
Please do not tell me that Al-Zhar Sheikh or Sheikh Qardawi are more intelligent than the prophet :PBUH: :)

Obviously, the propht :PBUH: did not specify the condition where a testimony of two women is equal to a testimony of one man but he generalized this rule. There is a general rule in the science of Fiqh Basis saying that (If we have an absolute evidence or ruling and there is no mention that this ruling is limited to a specific situation, we should use this ruling as general not to sepcify it or limit it for particular cases).
Please do not tell me that Al-Zhar Sheikh or Sheikh Qardawi are more intelligent than the prophet :PBUH: :)

Mashallah. You know more than the top scholars of Al-Azhar now. You are the one who is interpreting the Qur'an. Keep believing in whatever you want to believe. BTW, this is a hadith narrated by Abu Huraira, which according to a lot of people who are scrutinizing the ahadeeth, has a serious problem with women. In fact, if you check into a lot of the so-called ahadith of Abu-Huraira there are severe defects. A starting point would be:

1) Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said that "The passage of a woman, donkey and black dog invalidates his prayer."

When Aisha (ra) heard this she took offense and exclaimed to Abu Huraira, "God confound you! You have made women the same as dogs and donkeys ... By God, I used to lie down in front of the Prophet while on my menstrual cycle, as he continued to pray."

2) Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said that "If bad omens exist in anything, they exist in some houses, women and mounts."

Anyway, Aisha (ra) heard this and she was outraged and declared, "By God Who revealed the Qur'an to (Muhammed), whoever attributes this to the Prophet has lied."

(taken from Al-Zari, Abu Hurayra, p. 65 Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Fath al-Bari, 10:159)

3) The hadith you provided is regularly used by the Saudis , which according to them since women are not able to control their emotions; they should not work outside the home, they cannot occupy postions of leadership, drive cars, or travel without their male companions.

4) That hadith makes a contradiction. If women are deficient in intelligence and therefore would not be as accountable as men are, how come they are the majority inhibitants of hell? Anyway there are a lot of other points to be made about this particular hadeeth.

5) Abu Huraira only converted three years before the death of the Prophet, and yet he has the highest number of transmissions. Aisha (ra) called upon Abu Huraira to come and see her and she told him, "What are these reports from the Prophet that we keep hearing that you transmit to people! Tell me, did you hear anything other than what we heard, did you see anything than what we observed?" (Al-Nisaburi, al-Mustadrak, 3:509).

Aisha (ra) specifically objected to transmissions by Abu Hurayra that demeanded women. In one report, Abu Hurayr (a was addressing some legal issue when Aisha was praying, but she overheard him. By the time she finished, he left the mosque upon which Aish (ra) reportedly said, "Did you see this man, he came and sat next to my room as I was praying, saying such and such. If I would have caught up with him after finishing my prayers I would have corrected him." (Al-Dhahaba, Siyar A'lam, 2:607)

In another incident, Abu Huraryra would consistently say, "My close companion (khalili, ie. the Prophet) told me such and such, and my close companion did such and such." Ali (ra) confronted Abu Hurayra and said, "Abu Huraira, since when was the Prophet your close companion!". (Ibn Qutaybah, Kitab Tawil, p. 31, al-Musawi, Abu Hurayra, pp. 196).

Anyway, I suggest you research more on the science of hadeeth, rather than sucking up all that you hear on TV. Plus, as Mr P. provided in the politics section, there is a whole project where the specialists now are undertaking to discredit faulty hadeeths from the "authentic books".

To answer your question, I am not saying that these Shoyoukh I provided are more intelligent that the Prophet. I am saying that some of the ahadeeth that have entered into the authentic books might be faulty, and these Shoyoukh have more knowledge about the context and the science of hadeeth than you do.

Good reaction sophis^catrina

Mashallah. You know more than the top scholars of Al-Azhar now. You are the one who is interpreting the Qur'an

I did not say that and I never say that since Allah swt says (فَلا تُزَكُّوا أَنفُسَكُمْ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنِ اتَّقَى ) (Therefore, do not exalt yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous)
Anyway, you're doubting the authenticity of the hadith because it was narrated by Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) and you're accusing him that he had a strange position towards women and you shared some hadiths that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) disagreed with him.
I'm not going to comment on the stories you shared since we also disgree with some hadiths narrated by him espicially hadiths of seeing God in the hereafter many hadiths that are believed to be transmitted from Jewish belief.
However, the hadith I shared was not only narrated by Abu Hurayrah, indeed it was narrated by three other companions; Ibn Masuood, Ibn Omar and Abu Saeed Al-khudari. Are you going to deny their narrations and attack them as well? :)

Commenting on the rest of your reply is worthless since you're attacking Abu Hurayrah and this will be between you, him and your Lord in the day of Judgement.

To answer your question, I am not saying that these Shoyoukh I provided are more intelligent that the Prophet. I am saying that some of the ahadeeth that have entered into the authentic books might be faulty, and these Shoyoukh have more knowledge about the context and the science of hadeeth than you do.

I agree with you that many hadiths are not valid although they are included in Bukhari and Musilm sahih which are considered as the most authentic sources of hasith.
I really counsel you not follow scholars blindly because they are just human and they could make mistakes. Put some effort to compare their fatwas with Quran and authentic hadith. If their fatwas contradict with Quran and true hadiths, leave their fatwas and grasp the strongest bond which is the Quran.
Quran clearly says that two women's testimony is eaqul to one man testimony whlist Al-azhar scholars say no that was in the past now we live among modern people currently so we should change this ruling in order to adapt the new life:p

Good reaction sophis^catrina


I never did attack Abu Huraira, I was merely pointing out the other side of the story, mostly through quotations of Aisha (ra), etc.

Secondly, I am not following people blindly. I use my rationality. If we come to different points of view it is because we think differently. I believe that the purpose behind the Quranic verse was to ensure the documentation of a trasaction, and in the 7th century women were not accustomed to business contracts in general, which is also why we have the "qiwamma" verse. I do not believe that God discriminates between men and women, but because of their different roles in life, women being at home, men going to work, that's why that was specified. However, I think now coz women usually work and are as educated and as aware as men, and might even be lawyers, it is different. It doesn't seem logical to consider the witness of a normal man in the street who does not understand much about contracts to be above the witness of a female business lawyer. In fact, if you do that you can even destory the purpose of the Quranic verse itself in some circumstances.

If you genuinly believe that women are deficient in intelligence compared to men, then you can believe in that.

As Allah said in his holy book, no one knows the interpretation of the Quran except God himself. Therefore, no one can say that his or her interpretation is correct. We attempt to interpret depending on our understanding and our general way of thinking.

Islam differentiates between men and women in terms of roles and responsibilities but they have the same rights in Islam and they perform the same worships no arugment about that but we should know that women are not equated to men in many aspects such as holding responsibilities, taking the leadership and fighting side by side with men in case of wars ect and this is the appropriate intepretation when Allah says (وليس الذكر كالأنثى ). This is because of their nature, they are more emotional and physically weaker than men. Their top priority is their families and taking care of their housholds (وقرن في بيوتكن) but they can work and involve themselves in the society as long as they stick to islamic regulations and limits.
Regarding woman's testimny, it's not limited only to business transections. Testimony can be requested for many other situations e.g. witnessing the scene when a thief's hand is chopped and immersed in hot oil. Are female witnesses suitable for such issues ?, I guess she would run away and cry loudly when she saw his wrist separated from his hand :)

Sammy,

Let me give you a small example on how interpretation will differ depending on the reader.

Now you said, that (وليس الذكر كالأنثى ) ... which means "the male is not like the female". The translation you provided is that "women are not equated to men in many aspects such as holding responsibilities, taking the leadership and fighting side by side with men in case of wars ect" and because of "their nature, they are more emotional and weaker than men"

When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected." (3:36)


This verse came down when Mary’s mother gave an oath that the child that she was pregnant with would serve in Allah’s sake, as she wanted her “son” to be the caretaker of the temple. When she gave birth, and it was not a male, she said, “it is not a male!”. Allah then responded in the Qur’an that, “Allah knows what it was (what she gave birth to), and the male is not like the female.”

According to other scholars, this verse is actually the opposite to what people think. It means “Laisa al-thakar allati tamantho um maryam kaluntha allati wadha3at”. The verse is translated into being, “the male she desired is not like the female she gave birth to.” This is because she gave birth to Mary, who is better than any male she could have given birth to. Since Mary, who would give birth to Jesus (as). Further, that her honour is not just being the mother of Jesus, but rather that Jesus is the son of Mary. Therefore, part of the honour of Jesus is being the son of Mary. That is why throughout the Qur’an Allah calls him Jesus, the son of Mary. Mary was made as a sign to people, to be an an example "uswa" of the people who are obedient to God "qonout". Her status "maqam" was the status of Prophets.

So you see, you can either translate the verse superficially into being that “due to women’s nature they are more emotional and weaker than men”. Or you could translate it to being that Allah is praising and exalting Mary, the mother of Jesus, and saying that this woman is better than any male that her mother could have given birth to, since she had an incredibly high status in the sight of God, which demonstrates the true beauty and magnificence of the Qur’an.

Can I add one comment here.

It will be women like Sophis who will redeem Islam from the situation it finds itself in today.

If anyone can, I'd have to agree with that comment Wudjab, but will they be allowed to? Or will 'reasonable' sounding Muslims like Sophis effectively act as 5th Columnists for the extremists?

Sophis, Clouds, what about some other discriminatory aspects of Islam?
1/ the oft quoted right of a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances? Shura 4.34
2/ the right of marital rape? Shura 2.223
3/ the right to custody of children older than 3 following divorce?

*Edited for the purposes of a new thread*

women!!!!! no wonder the Prophet:PBUH:told us that they are lacking brains and religion!!!!

Interesting.

Where did you get it?

There is another possible interpretation besides the interpretation you brought up. This interpretation basically suggests that the statment refers to Umran's wife since she gave an oath that her child would serve in Allah’s cuase. But when she born Mary she got a quite upset because she knew that the duaghter could not serve her oath unlike the son who would be able to take care of the tample. This is not suitable for a female who would have time off because of the cycle or whatever, plus she is not allowed to be among men or to associate them.
leaving this verse aside, there are many verses which mention that women and men are not alike in terms of roles and responsiblities.
(الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ) : (The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners)
(]ولا تتمنوا مَا فضَّل الله به بعضكم على بعض للرجالِ نصيبٌ مِمَّا اكتسبوا وللنساء نصيب مما اكتسبن واسألوا الله من فضله إنَّ اللهَ كانَ بكلِّ شيءٍ عليماً) : (You shall not covet the qualities bestowed upon each other by GOD; the men enjoy certain qualities, and the women enjoy certain qualities. You may implore GOD to shower you with His grace. GOD is fully aware of all things)

and many others

Unfortunately, some women nowdays are not thanking and praising Allah for the great blessing of preserving women dignity. Remind yourself of how women were treated before Islam and how Islam raised the status of women when he first came. Some poeple want to make muslim women like westren where women qualities are almost have disappeared such as feminity, softness, sweetness and kindness.

This site might be useful
http://www.khayma.com/alhkikh/Women/msawah.htm

well done samdawy great answers, the overall conclusion of the thread is:

women and men are NOT equal in Islam period.

admit to this fact Sophie and stop wasting our time.

I would like to elaborate on this fact from Islam prospective:

-Allah swt has favoured men to women in spreading his message that's why there are no muslim women messengers or Prophets.
-muslim women should not be rulers of muslims in all aspects of life for what the Prophet(peace be upon him) said: "لا خير في قوم ولوا امرهم امرأة" meaning:"there is no good in people who chose a woman to be their ruler"
-the Quran clearly states that the witness of two women is equivalent to the witness of one man.
-also the Prophet(peace be upon him) reinforced that fact mentioned in the Quran and added that they are deficient in brains and religion as mentioned before, this alone make women and men are not equal.
-women are not as brave and dare in fighting as men due to their soft hearts and body builds that's why in the army of any country the vast majority are men.

and the list goes on and on..............

so Sophie you ought to agree that you are not the same as men or equal to men in too many things and aspects of life and you will NEVER be.

So, is it OK for a husband to beat his wife sometimes?

If women are so ignorant clouds...then WHY would you want more than one wife. Would that not be enough of a headache for you? Come on.....women are very intelligent...plus who is it that starts wars, who are mostly in prisons, who commit the most henious of crimes including incest, child molestation, forgeries, imbezzelements, rape and murder??? And darling pllleeeaassseeee....this is like global...not in just the West...men are the instigators of most violence that occurs in this world. And to me that kind of attitude men have regarding their fellow human being and the well being of this planet (not all of course but there are great numbers out there) shows extreme ignorance in the teachings of God and the prophets tenfold.

you'd have to be a dumb woman though,
to marry a guy
who thinks
you are not worth as he is.

I'm not saying that women worth less than men please do not accuse me of saying words that I never uttered. In fact, women are very valued in Islam and even they have more rights than men.
A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship? The Prophet said: [Your mother]. The man said, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: [Then your mother.] The man further asked, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: [Then your mother]. The man asked again, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: [Then your father.]. (Bukhari, Muslim).
In Islam, if a son has to elder parents but he only can take care of one of them, he should take care of his mother rather than th father. So the right of mom comes before the right of dad.
A Russian researcher called Anton Nemilaf puplished a book regarding the equality between men and women in the practical life and he concluded by saying : ( We should not deceive ourselves by claming that the possibility of achieving the equality between men and women in practical life is something easy. If fact, nobody has struggled to achieve this equality between the two genders as we did in Sovite Russia and nobody has set up rules regarding this issue as we did but indeed woman's status has not changed whether in family scale or society scale )

well done samdawy great answers, the overall conclusion of the thread is:

women and men are NOT equal in Islam period.
.

This is very insulting actually. You're either not good in English and can't express yourself well, or you are just a real sexist? So which one is it?

I would agree if you said, women and men are different, but they're equal in the eyes of God. We're different, true! You've your roles as a man, I've mine as a woman, but that does not mean we are not equal. Then you say, that you did not imply that women are less valued than men, but you did! When you say we are not equal, and men are superior...then that means women are inferior which suggests we are of less value. So if you claim we are sooo valued in Islam, then we should be as equal as men, or more superior since we have more rights, correct?

We're in fact more equal, because we are punished the same if we commit a sin, we are judged in the same way by God etc. Therefore, it is more correct to say men and women are different but equal!

If anyone can, I'd have to agree with that comment Wudjab, but will they be allowed to? Or will 'reasonable' sounding Muslims like Sophis effectively act as 5th Columnists for the extremists?

Sophis, Clouds, what about some other discriminatory aspects of Islam?
1/ the oft quoted right of a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances? Shura 4.34
2/ the right of marital rape? Shura 2.223
3/ the right to custody of children older than 3 following divorce?

The first 2 are pretty standard in traditional cultures worldwide, I don't find them unusual or unfair. Just as parents traditionally could spank children because they have seniority over them in the 'tribe', the man is naturally the head of the tribe and therefore has seniority over everyone including the woman. (Hence he can discipline her.)

But that's an interesting point about moderates acting as 5th columnists. The sweet and reasonable girls won't be able to help us when their crazed 'brothers' come kicking down our doors, as the Christian Arabs in Lebanon found out.

I agree its common practice.

But I was curious if the 'sweet and reasonable ones' agree that Allah confirmed it was OK for a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances?

Clouds? Is there a quote from the Quraan to justify that? :rolleyes:

I fail to see how God would ever condone hitting another human being esp. when Jesus said to turn the other cheek and offer the other one.

Makes no sense to be violent.

Lets see what the experts say....

in my culture, if a man hits a woman she can take him to court, get the police, have him arrested, make him lose custody.

In our religion, if a man beats his wife without any valid reason she can take him to court, have him arrested and even ask for divorce.

In our religion, if a man beats his wife without any valid reason she can take him to court, have him arrested and even ask for divorce.
there shouldn't be a reason for a man to beat his wife.


--------------------
and what reason would justify a beating?

buring food? refusing sex? not washing the floors properly?

And, in your culture, women can't divorce too :D

And, in your culture, women can't divorce too :D
no but they can walk away, annul and set up home with another man.

and i don't know what you are grinning about, woman beating is a very serious and shocking thing.

Lets see what the experts say....

I'll be right back with the answer my dear. It seems that many poeple think that martial relationship in Islam invloves beating, hitting and fighting :)

I'll be right back with the answer my dear. It seems that many poeple think that martial relationship in Islam invloves beating, hitting and fighting :)
count me out of that list cos i am not one of those who think so.

I don't think that way either. I just have issues with anyone from any religion who thinks wife beating is condoned and should be done to keep a woman in line.

no but they can walk away, annul and set up home with another man.

and i don't know what you are grinning about, woman beating is a very serious and shocking thing.

Am grinning because you are talking about women rights in Islam where there are no women rights ( the right of divorce :e.g) in your country.


Anyway, I believe that men and women are equal in Islam. They are just entrusted different responsibilities. Our prophet PBUH says: الجنة تحت أقدام الامهات ( The heaven is under mothers' feet ) and also he asked the son to love his mother first then comes his father: which gives women more credits than men. Regarding النساء ناقصات عقل ودين ( Women lack mind and religion ) It's already explained by that women do less religious duties regarding there feminine situation which starts from period, pregnancy and giving birth. There are so many hadeeths praising women as there are so others praising men. When Islam came, the first thing it did is equality between men and women and kept her right so well. So yes women are equal to men in God's Eye and Islam.

Actually you can divorce in the Catholic church but you may never remarry within it. What the concept is, is that no manmade law can tear asunder the bond made by God. Annulments can happen in some circumstances such as abuse or if the marriage is not consumated among other reasons.

Actually you can divorce in the Catholic church but you may never remarry within it. .

It's the same. You cannot join to souls together compulsary if they want divorce. Anyway, this is not our topic i was just making a point of view.^

Keep the equal sign for maths.
Women have roles in life.
Men have roles in life.
To say they're PHOTOCOPIES of each other is nonesense. Otherwise, women won't be so special and neither would men and we would have no genders to distinguish between anyhow.
Some men are smart, some are stupid. Same goes for women.
There's really no harm in admitting it...As long as it's not based on gender DISCRIMINATION.

clouds, why did you marry from those who have less intelligence?
I mean, the ones with more intelligence are plenty LOL

Am grinning because you are talking about women rights in Islam where there are no women rights ( the right of divorce :e.g) in your country.


Anyway, I believe that men and women are equal in Islam. They are just entrusted different responsibilities. Our prophet PBUH says: الجنة تحت أقدام الامهات ( The heaven is under mothers' feet ) and also he asked the son to love his mother first then comes his father: which gives women more credits than men. Regarding النساء ناقصات عقل ودين ( Women lack mind and religion ) It's already explained by that women do less religious duties regarding there feminine situation which starts from period, pregnancy and giving birth. There are so many hadeeths praising women as there are so others praising men. When Islam came, the first thing it did is equality between men and women and kept her right so well. So yes women are equal to men in God's Eye and Islam.
i talked specifically about women being beaten up and women being considered less or not equal by some men. i never mentioned Islam.

I agree its common practice.

But I was curious if the 'sweet and reasonable ones' agree that Allah confirmed it was OK for a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances?

Clouds? Is there a quote from the Quraan to justify that? :rolleyes:

So, is it OK for a husband to beat his wife sometimes?

If anyone can, I'd have to agree with that comment Wudjab, but will they be allowed to? Or will 'reasonable' sounding Muslims like Sophis effectively act as 5th Columnists for the extremists?

Sophis, Clouds, what about some other discriminatory aspects of Islam?
1/ the oft quoted right of a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances? Shura 4.34
2/ the right of marital rape? Shura 2.223
3/ the right to custody of children older than 3 following divorce?

Lets see what the experts say....


undercover, to avoid drifting off topic too much I suggest you start a new thread entitled : women beating in Islam

talking about myself I used to pinch my wife slightly in her arm when I got very angry with her but it will not go beyond that, and that was ages ago now I don't do it or even touch her, verbal communication is more than enough.

Islam give us men the right to LIGHTLY beat our wives in a very special case which is when they become disobedient and big headed and will not obey what the husband tells them to do ie they become rebellious, or as we call it in Arabic "nushooz"

and this beating must come as the last resort first we talk to them and advice them to change their bad behaviour if it didn't work then seize sex relationship with them which does not mean sleeping in different room or on the couch, but sleeping with them on the same bed but giving them the back, this requires big stamina for some men! and lastly if this also didn't work light beating (avoiding the face and sensitive areas) is the last resort.

frankly I never experienced or practiced this right of mine because I didn't have to my wives are well behaved and obedient though they get on my nerves sometimes!!!.

can your wife pinch you if you get out of line? being equals?

last week while i was waiting in a queue at a bank.. a young lady entered the bank and went straight to the casher .. is this what they call equal rights !!!!

last week while i was waiting in a queue at a bank.. a young lady entered the bank and went straight to the casher .. is this what they call equal rights !!!!
did she jump the queue just because she was a woman?

^^ yeah .. and there were only 3 guys on the queue including me.

^^ yeah .. and there were only 3 guys on the queue including me.
well bad for her. equality means standing in a queue regardless of your sex and authority.

^^ lucky for her .. i was in a really good mood .. i usually get really pissed off when someone skips the queue, i once gave a guy and his wife the middle finger for skipping a really long queue.

^^ lucky for her .. i was in a really good mood .. i usually get really pissed off when someone skips the queue, i once gave a guy and his wife the middle finger for skipping a really long queue.
i wouldnt' give them the middle finger. i'd raise a whole riot, go to the managment and complain profusely. middle finger isn't gonna get them in the queue.

^^it was on the road during rush hour.. i was waiting for more than half an hour at a trafficlight .. the guy simply skipped the long queue and tried to enter infront of me ..

at stores, i usually tell the cashier that i was next online.

If anyone can, I'd have to agree with that comment Wudjab, but will they be allowed to? Or will 'reasonable' sounding Muslims like Sophis effectively act as 5th Columnists for the extremists?

Sophis, Clouds, what about some other discriminatory aspects of Islam?
1/ the oft quoted right of a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances? Shura 4.34
2/ the right of marital rape? Shura 2.223
3/ the right to custody of children older than 3 following divorce?

Undercover,

1) The verse came to eradicate domestic violence, not to promote it. This verse is to do with Arab culture, where the Qur'an is invoking the philosophy of gradualism. In other words, it is introducing a transitory stage for change within Muslim society to being a society where spouses "live together in kindness", rather than beating each other up. The Prophet :PBUH: who was the model of the actual meanings of the Qur'an said the following: "How can any one of you hit his wife like an animal, then he may embrace her?" Also, "only the worst of you will have recourse to such methods". Furthermore, "I cannot bear seeing a quick tempered man beat his wife in a fit of anger".

I'll come back later to comment further on this verse, since it involves law and society and because I am writing a little article on it. So when I am finished, I'll copy and paste.

2)

Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. [2:223]


The above verse [2:223] has nothing to do with marital rape. It is to do with sex positions. The verse was revealed when a woman, who thought that the missionary position (or rather sex from in front) was the only proper way to have sex. She went to Umm Salama and asked her to put her question to the Prophet of whether it was alright for husbands to have sexual intercourse with their wives "from in front and from behind (in other words, doggy style)". Basically whether it was alright to be sexually adventurous and use different sex positions. The verse came down and said that's fine.


Se further http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015582

3) The right to custody of children and also divorce are incredibly discriminatory aspects within major jurisdictions of Islamic countries. These are are based on judicial precedent , which have favoured men ignoring all the verses of the Qur'an and hadith that emphasize the role of the mother. It has more to do with patriarchal culture, which has unfortunately enforced itself through using the name of Islam. Yes, it is discriminatory and needs to be changed.

Clouds,

-Allah swt has favoured men to women in spreading his message that's why there are no muslim women messengers or Prophets.

Due to amount of honour and praise that Mary received from God in the Qur'an, the eminent scholars Imam al-Bukhari, Ibn Hajr Al-Asqalani and even Ibn Zain al-Qayrawani were absolutely convinced that she was a prophet. Majority of scholars hold that she was not. This is due to their interpretation and their own reasoning, but as you can see there is a dissenting view from some of our great scholars.

-women are not as brave and dare in fighting as men due to their soft hearts and body builds that's why in the army of any country the vast majority are men.

You're incorrect. During the Prophet's :PBUH: time women fought in battles. Notably, Um Sulaym and Nusayabah bint Kab. Nusayba was very much praised by the Prophet.

Sophie you ought to agree that you are not the same as men or equal to men in too many things and aspects of life and you will NEVER be.

I am different, that's true. I am equal though. Equality for all people, wthout differentiating on the basis of their race, colour or gender is the basis of our religion I believe, which only discriminates between people due to good conduct and character.

I would like to elaborate on this fact from Islam prospective

May I suggest that you do more research when it comes to your religion. Rather than saying what is contrary to Islamic practices and history. After all the most used word in the Qur'an after the word "Allah", is "al-3ilm" - that is "knowledge". It would be good to attain "knowledge" that Allah repeatedly emphasizes.

Clouds, [On leadership and women]

-muslim women should not be rulers of muslims in all aspects of life for what the Prophet(peace be upon him) said: "لا خير في قوم ولوا امرهم امرأة" meaning:"there is no good in people who chose a woman to be their ruler"

Actually this hadith has a lot of problems relating to the narrator, Abu Bakra, incidently the "only" narrator and the only person who heard this hadith from the Prophet. For example, he was flogged for false testimony during the reign of Umar Ibn Khattab. Also, it "amazingly" appeared 25 years after the Prophet's death right after the defeat of Aisha in the Battle of Camel. It has drawn extensive controvery from our scholars, where Al-Tabari does not exclude women from politics and Ibn Hazm concludes that a woman can be a head of state. In a nutshell, this is what Imam Ghazzali had to say about it:

When Persia showed signs of imminent downfall because it was ruled by a despotic, corrupt queen and the people were lost and lacked guidance, the Prophet commented on this by the hadith and if the situation had been otherwise his words might also have been different.

Hence this seems to be the appropriate stance, as it is also in line with the Qur’anic verse [27:23-33] that narrates the story of the 'wise' Queen of Sheba and does not prohibit women from roles of leadership.

Plus, we also know throughout history that there have been some very successful women heads of states. Notably, Queen Elizabth I of Britian, who inherited a bankcrupt state and transformed it throughout her reign, which was described as "the Golden age" into the most powerful country in Europe, defeating the Spanish armada.

Unfortunately, some women nowdays are not thanking and praising Allah for the great blessing of preserving women dignity. Remind yourself of how women were treated before Islam and how Islam raised the status of women when he first came. Some poeple want to make muslim women like westren where women qualities are almost have disappeared such as feminity, softness, sweetness and kindness.


This is strange. The Qur'an provides that a woman is a sovereign and independent entity, which is reflected by the fact that Muslim women do not take their husbands name when they get married. It gives women the right to "vote"/to participate in the political process [verse 60:12], the right to financial independence [verse 4:32], the right to inherit, the right to education, the right to divorce [2:228], the right to maintenance and child support [4:34, 2:24, 2:223]. Furthermore, in the Prophet's time women took religious, social, political, legal, economic and military positions.

As for your softeness and kindness, we know that "Islam's first lady", khadija, was a business woman who supported the Prophet. As for your other "Islam's first lady", Aisha, was a vital political, legal and religious leader. Your other "Islam's first lady", Um Salama, was a woman who the Prophet used to consult when it comes to military matters.

So when it comes to your claims that "muslim women want too become like western women" - it is very strange. Muslim women already had these rights handed down to them from God and his messenger, 1000 years before Western women went out on the streets protesting.

But amazingly, due to the ignorance, corruption and oppression that we can see in society, Muslim women have been stripped of their God given rights. :rolleyes: Yvonne Ridley, the British journalist who was captured by the Taliban, read the Qur'an looking for an explanation of the Taliban's treatment of women, only to find there wasn't any and said, "It's a magna carta for women!" http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/conversion/family.shtml

So, is it OK for a husband to beat his wife sometimes?

Now a days wifes are beating husband very often.

My wife is also practacing.

Undercover,

1) The verse came to eradicate domestic violence, not to promote it. This verse is to do with Arab culture, where the Qur'an is invoking the philosophy of gradualism. In other words, it is introducing a transitory stage for change within Muslim society to being a society where spouses "live together in kindness", rather than beating each other up. The Prophet :PBUH: who was the model of the actual meanings of the Qur'an said the following: "How can any one of you hit his wife like an animal, then he may embrace her?" Also, "only the worst of you will have recourse to such methods". Furthermore, "I cannot bear seeing a quick tempered man beat his wife in a fit of anger".

I'll come back later to comment further on this verse, since it involves law and society and because I am writing a little article on it. So when I am finished, I'll copy and paste.

Sophis,
You should be working on the project in Turkey! :yes: Your argument is clever, and makes sense (ie the instructions are to be interpreted in the times they were written, and at the time this represented a huge improvement for women). Unfortunately the reality of practice in most places where Islam is dominant seems to interpret these instructions very differently, and use them as god-given authority for domestic violence and subjugation of women. :os It can be no accident that 'honour killings' are predominantly related to the Muslim faith, and they always are inflicted upon the woman.

But Sophis, rather than avoid the question, you do agree that the Quraan does explicitly authorise beating of a disobedient wife, do you not? The Shura is pretty explicit.
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Note that the addition of (lightly) in translation 1 is not in the actual arabic. And I haven't found that wives are given the same right either (to deny sex or beat their husband).

Also, 4:15 is pretty clear too.
004.015
YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

Again, very controlling of women, don't you think? :think:

This is strange. The Qur'an provides that a woman is a sovereign and independent entity, which is reflected by the fact that Muslim women do not take their husbands name when they get married. It gives women the right to "vote"/to participate in the political process [verse 60:12], ...

Can you explain your logic Sophis on exactly how Sura 60:12 provides the right to vote? It is pretty clear that this is a pledge of obedience and fielty. I think you're somewhat over-interpreting on this one. ;)

060.012
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe no thing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Sophis,
You should be working on the project in Turkey! :yes: Your argument is clever, and makes sense (ie the instructions are to be interpreted in the times they were written, and at the time this represented a huge improvement for women). Unfortunately the reality of practice in most places where Islam is dominant seems to interpret these instructions very differently, and use them as god-given authority for domestic violence and subjugation of women. :os It can be no accident that 'honour killings' are predominantly related to the Muslim faith, and they always are inflicted upon the woman.

But Sophis, rather than avoid the question, you do agree that the Quraan does explicitly authorise beating of a disobedient wife, do you not? The Shura is pretty explicit.


Note that the addition of (lightly) in translation 1 is not in the actual arabic. And I haven't found that wives are given the same right either (to deny sex or beat their husband).

Also, 4:15 is pretty clear too.


Again, very controlling of women, don't you think? :think:

Undercover,

I will post on domestic violence and beating soon enough, don't worry ;) . They just more or less deal with legal theories and society, that's why it's a bit lengthy to post at the minute. On your question about the "lightly" - this was clarified by the Prophet, that's why it was added in the translations (note that the Prophet was very much against hitting women and was in fact disgusted by it).

Honour killings are prohibited in Islam. It is called murder. In the Qur'an if you think someone is guilty if "zina" you need to bring four witnesses who testify to the actually seeing "penetration". And if people come and testify and these testomonies conflict in any respect, then they get flogged. The verses on "zina" such as the ones you mentioned as well, came down when people were spreading rumors that the Prophet's wife, Aisha, had committed adultery. Some 13-17 verses were revealed to the Prophet, on the subject of "zena" - punishment and conditions. As a result, those who were spreading such rumors were flogged. It was a very clever Qur'anic method to punish those people who were spreading false rumors about women, and therefore to protect women, since it is "virtually impossible" to find "four witnesses to the actual penetration and whose testimonies do not conflict ". Also, since they are at risk of being flogged themselves, they will not bother testifying or spreading rumors.

And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- (24:5)

Furthermore, people have a strong right to privacy in Islam, so you can't go around spying on people,

"Do not enter houses other than your own houses until you have asked permission and saluted their inmates; this is better for you, that you may be mindful. But if you do not find any one therein, then do not enter them until permission is given to you; and if it is said to you: Go back, then go back; this is purer for you; and Allah is Cognizant of what you do." [24:27-28]

"O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion; for lo! some suspicion is a crime. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Ye abhor that (so abhor the other)! And keep your duty (to Allah). Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful." [49:12]

Yes, we are having a big problem with crazy men who don't know what they are talking about - they will be held accountable in front of God no doubt about that. It isn't the religion, it is the legal system of (a particular country) that is corrupt and does not hold such criminals accountable for their actions.

Can you explain your logic Sophis on exactly how Sura 60:12 provides the right to vote? It is pretty clear that this is a pledge of obedience and fielty. I think you're somewhat over-interpreting on this one. ;)

This verse is to do with giving the "al-Bay'ah" to a member of society to be the head of state in pre-modern times, similar to the "voting" system in modern times.

The Arabic term is Bay'ah (بَيْعَة) - It is given on behalf of the subjects by leading members of the tribe with the understanding that as long as the leader abides by certain requirements towards his people, they are to maintain their allegiance to him.

When the Prophet :PBUH: was in Mecca, some men and women had come to Medina to give him the (al-Bay3a) to govern Medina on their behalf. With regards to the women, this verse came down telling the Prophet :PBUH: to accept it. We also have evidence that women used to elect representatives on their behalf to disuss matters with the Prophet. The logic behind this is that whether it is giving the "bay'a" in the 7th century or "voting" in modern times, the principle is the same. The Qur'an asserts that women are to take part in political participation, and are independent entities whose voices should also be heard in society, and not merely confined to the private sphere. It is not just the men who should be a part of the public sphere. It is this underlying principle that should be applied in every time and place depending on the political system in place.

Undercover,
I will post on domestic violence and beating soon enough, don't worry ;) . They just more or less deal with legal theories and society, that's why it's a bit lengthy to post at the minute. On your question about the "lightly" - this was clarified by the Prophet, that's why it was added in the translations (note that the Prophet was very much against hitting women and was in fact disgusted by it).

Sophis, I love your general impression of reasonableness and the subtleties of your arguments, and generally your permissive attitudes and interpretations of the faith (even if they are not in line with the opinions all Islamic theologians), but on this one there is no equivocation: its either a yes or no. Either the Quraan, under certain circumstances, allows a husband to beat his wife, or it doesn't. :rolleyes:

Undercover,
Honour killings are prohibited in Islam. It is called murder. In the Qur'an if you think someone is guilty if "zina" you need to bring four witnesses who testify to the actually seeing "penetration". And if people come and testify and these testomonies conflict in any respect, then they get flogged. The verses on "zina" such as the ones you mentioned as well, came down when people were spreading rumors that the Prophet's wife, Aisha, had committed adultery. Some 13-17 verses were revealed to the Prophet, on the subject of "zena" - punishment and conditions. As a result, those who were spreading such rumors were flogged. It was a very clever Qur'anic method to punish those people who were spreading false rumors about women, and therefore to protect women, since it is "virtually impossible" to find "four witnesses to the actual penetration and whose testimonies do not conflict ". Also, since they are at risk of being flogged themselves, they will not bother testifying or spreading rumors.
Furthermore, people have a strong right to privacy in Islam, so you can't go around spying on people,
Yes, we are having a big problem with crazy men who don't know what they are talking about - they will be held accountable in front of God no doubt about that. It isn't the religion, it is the legal system of (a particular country) that is corrupt and does not hold such criminals accountable for their actions.

Is Zina restricted to adulterous penetrative intercourse? It seems a much broader definition in all the translations... And other Shura explicitly mention adultery rather than mere 'lewdness'.

[But I can see why the Prophet :PBUH: was keen to firmly address such rumours, especially given the 45 yr age difference and the fact that Aisha was, I'm sure, pretty good looking. ;) ]

Also, I think you'd admit that so far you don't seem to be doing a very good job of getting your version of Sharia accepted in the vast majority of Islamic states or societies... Why is that? :think:

Sorry to jump into this very intresting debate, I am learning alot from it .. please continue :)


[But I can see why the Prophet :PBUH: was keen to firmly address such rumours, especially given the 45 yr age difference and the fact that Aisha was, I'm sure, pretty good looking. ;) ]


The Zina punishment was applied very few times in the first 600 years of Islamic rulings (the closest to the prophet). It was due to the fact that it is not easy to get the enough number of witnesses who would see the real act.
Aisha's (May allah be pleased with her) was an example that was followed by the prophet's companions!

Also, I think you'd admit that so far you don't seem to be doing a very good job of getting your version of Sharia accepted in the vast majority of Islamic states or societies... Why is that? :think:

She doesnt have her version of Sharia .. it is practiced in some countries and by some scholars .. however, because the "bad" version is what always gets into the news it is what is widly known ..

She doesnt have her version of Sharia .. it is practiced in some countries and by some scholars ..

I didn't mean her own personal version, just the exceptionally reasonable version that Sophie expounds. Perhaps most of those scholars live in the west, where legal protection for human rights actually have some teeth?

.. however, because the "bad" version is what always gets into the news it is what is widly known ..

Well, be fair now 'Princess. Its not just El Ray's pesky jewish controlled western media is it? We're talking actual operating Sharia and accepted codes of Islamic practice as exemplified by actual countries and real (and often horrible) things happening to real people, and especially women:
Saudi
Pakistan
Iran
Sudan
Afganistan
Yemen
Mauritania
:think:

The "bad" version seems the rule, rather than the exception. Especially given that the two major seats of Islamic influence and power are Saudi and Iran. Places that are close to the last places on earth I would want to live if I were an intelligent educated Islamic woman... :no:

And increasingly in danger of joining the "bad" club are
Egypt
Turkey
Algeria
Nigeria
Lebanon

...

Clouds, [On leadership and women]



Actually this hadith has a lot of problems relating to the narrator, Abu Bakra, incidently the "only" narrator and the only person who heard this hadith from the Prophet. .

Sophis are you telling me those great Imams who narrated this hadith:

لن يفلح قوم ولوا أمرهم امرأة like Albukhari, al Nisa'e, al Turmithi and classed as AUTHANTIC by them, they make a mistake and you are right, how could you discard such hadith and say it's false?

are you more expert than those great Imams?

can I ask you one question why the Prophet:PBUH: or his four caliphats(ra) didn't appoint a single woman to be a leader or a ruler or even a judge?

Well, be fair now 'Princess. Its not just El Ray's pesky jewish controlled western media is it? We're talking actual operating Sharia and accepted codes of Islamic practice as exemplified by actual countries and real (and often horrible) things happening to real people, and especially women:
Saudi
Pakistan
Iran
Sudan
Afganistan
Yemen
Mauritania
:think:

The "bad" version seems the rule, rather than the exception. Especially given that the two major seats of Islamic influence and power are Saudi and Iran. Places that are close to the last places on earth I would want to live if I were an intelligent educated Islamic woman... :no:

And increasingly in danger of joining the "bad" club are
Egypt
Turkey
Algeria
Nigeria
Lebanon

...

I am not saying that its all Media's fault .. its our fault as humans .. we concentrate on the exciting news .. and make out of it the majority.

Yes, some countries apply sharia as they understand them but they are not the majority at all .. Islamic countries are not limited by those examples .. why should Islam as a whole be judged by those? I am not saying they are wrong .. I am just saying Islamic Jursdiction is a science by itself, it is not limited to the interpretation of some.

Islamic countries!!!
When I listen, I just laugh.
Where do you get Islamic country?

Sophis are you telling me those great Imams who narrated this hadith:

لن يفلح قوم ولوا أمرهم امرأة like Albukhari, al Nisa'e, al Turmithi and classed as AUTHANTIC by them, they make a mistake and you are right, how could you discard such hadith and say it's false?

are you more expert than those great Imams?

can I ask you one question why the Prophet:PBUH: or his four caliphats(ra) didn't appoint a single woman to be a leader or a ruler or even a judge?

clouds
with due respect towards you and those who think that rediscussing hadeeth interpretations and chains of narration, or contextualising part of the verses of the Quran is sacrilegious
Studies were carried in the past and they led to the current classifications and exegesis
There is a possibility that part of these studies are wrong : the main evidence of this, is the fact that some verses or some hadeeth, seem not to fit today's reality
This is in contrast with the universality of Islamic message
There is the need to rediscuss many issues, which doesn't mean that we want to change Islam
There are some verses of the Quran, whose meaning must understood in the light of events behind which they were revealed
There are some hadeeth that needs to be taken in the context in which the Prophet pronounced his words
It's a work which needs to be done, or we will always remain stuck on the fact that women are inferior beings and that God doesn't allow freedom of choice in religion when it remains in the personal sphere
Islam taught and lived this way, is a religion of war and not of peace
Unfortunately the majority of Arab scholars do not want to do this job cause this means to give a different shape also to the mind of the people, to teach them to use brain
Islam is a religion which requires thought and knowledge, but regimes here are not in favour of this

wow Amo - here here.

Islamic countries!!!
When I listen, I just laugh.
Where do you get Islamic country?

Shamsery, with all due respect. Are you actually a Jim Henson character, re-animated for the purposes of making my life seem shorter and more futile than it actually is??

clouds
with due respect towards you and those who think that rediscussing hadeeth interpretations and chains of narration, or contextualising part of the verses of the Quran is sacrilegious
Studies were carried in the past and they led to the current classifications and exegesis
There is a possibility that part of these studies are wrong : the main evidence of this, is the fact that some verses or some hadeeth, seem not to fit today's realityThis is in contrast with the universality of Islamic message
There is the need to rediscuss many issues, which doesn't mean that we want to change Islam
There are some verses of the Quran, whose meaning must understood in the light of events behind which they were revealed
There are some hadeeth that needs to be taken in the context in which the Prophet pronounced his words
It's a work which needs to be done, or we will always remain stuck on the fact that women are inferior beings and that God doesn't allow freedom of choice in religion when it remains in the personal sphere
Islam taught and lived this way, is a religion of war and not of peace
Unfortunately the majority of Arab scholars do not want to do this job cause this means to give a different shape also to the mind of the people, to teach them to use brain
Islam is a religion which requires thought and knowledge, but regimes here are not in favour of this


Amo, Islam does not change by time Islam teachings and rules will remain unchanged till the day of judgement.

the glorious Quran and the authentic hadiths are the two wings of Islam you can not just consider one and discard the other, you must believe totally in both as a muslim.

although it seems to some people that some verses of the Quran or some authentic hadiths do not fit or go by today's standards but I am afraid they are totally wrong and misguided.

as muslims we must submitt to Allah swt words and his Prophet's:PBUH:.

I agree that we as muslims we can not stick to the Sunnah of the Prophet:PBUH: 100% this is nearly impossible for any muslim to achieve, but we have to do two main things which the Prphet:PBUH: told us to:

1) avoid ALL the forbidden things that he told us to avoid.
2) what he told us to do we will do our best to achieve it.

Volume: 9, Book Number: 92, Hadith Number: 391
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet:PBUH: said, "Leave me as I leave you) for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."

I think it's rather rediculous and ignorant to say about some authentic hadiths are not right or false just because they do not fit in our deficient minds, and give silly excuses that they are only good for old times and not for the 21st century!!!!

as muslims we must submitt to Allah swt words and his Prophet's:PBUH:.


I agree, but the problem is how we pick those words
The starting post of this thread for example, if am not mistaken is a consideration of yours from an hadith to which you gave all another meaning
The Prophet :PBUH: stated a fact, without going against women
You implied that he was saying that in a negative way
All the examples that were given in this thread, were not taken by Sophie out of the the blue : there are respectable scholars who studied and still do
The reinterpretation or the contextualisation, is not a lame excuse to drag away what one doesn't like or doesn't understand but is a powerful mean to give back to Islam its universal nature
I understand that is difficult for you to rediscuss things you've been taught by people you think infallible but this way you reduce Islam to a backward system of laws and regulations useful only to control people lives and is not like that
Be careful cause you can end up to do to your daughter what this guy did to a girl of 11 years in Yemen (http://www.yobserver.com/news-varieties/10013776.html)
Maybe in his brain God told him that since the Prophet :PBUH: married Aisha at such a young age, he had the right to do this to his daughter
The context and the circumstances are important

i read that article about that 11 yr old girl.
is there anybody speaking up for her? protesting? crying out at the abuse this girl has gone through? lynched her father?

anything? anyone?

And another thing : from the official chart of hadeeth and stories of the Prophet :PBUH:, why always doing a selection against women when is against the teachings of Islam ?
Why some men don't even touch their women during period when Mohammad :PBUH: used to take a bath with his wives, provided they were covered ?
Why women are considered deficient in understanding when Aisha was a scholar since she used to teach hadeeth to men from behind a curtain ?
Why some men refuse to stay close to their wives during day time in Ramadan, while the Prophet :PBUH: used to kiss his wives on their cheeks when fasting ?

i read that article about that 11 yr old girl.
is there anybody speaking up for her? protesting? crying out at the abuse this girl has gone through? lynched her father?

anything? anyone?

I guess not.

They're too busy protesting about cartoons and art exhibits.

by Amo:
what this guy did to a girl of 11 years in Yemen

this is too bad the father is too much greedy he sold his daughter for the money!!!!

and he broke the Yemeni law which doesn't allow girl marriage below 18 years old.

but the devastating issue if poor Sally didn't reach puberty age.

shameful father.

And another thing : from the official chart of hadeeth and stories of the Prophet :PBUH:,

why always doing a selection against women when is against the teachings of Islam ?

I make such a selection when I see Muslim women leave Islam basic teachings and try to follow western corrupted values like not wearing hejab, and putting on make up and perfume in public and wear indecent clothes and try to compete with men in all aspects of life under the false title of "Women's Rights" which the west try to impose on us.


Why some men don't even touch their women during period when Mohammad :PBUH: used to take a bath with his wives, provided they were covered ?

I do touch my wife provided she is covered and I think this is sunnah which I adore a lot.

Why women are considered deficient in understanding when Aisha was a scholar since she used to teach hadeeth to men from behind a curtain ?

as I said before if the Prophet:PBUH: told us women are deficient in understanding, all I have to say I hear and obey.

Why some men refuse to stay close to their wives during day time in Ramadan, while the Prophet :PBUH: used to kiss his wives on their cheeks when fasting ?

as I said I try my best to imply the sunnah of the Prophet:PBUH: in all aspects of my life, but this one is too much hard for me to do, last time I tried doing it I went too far and I ended up breaking my fast!!! so now in Ramadan while fasting I stay clear from my wife for obvious reasons.

by Amo:


this is too bad the father is too much greedy he sold his daughter for the money!!!!

and he broke the Yemeni law which doesn't allow girl marriage below 18 years old.

but the devastating issue if poor Sally didn't reach puberty age.

shameful father.
well done clouds for your statement. are there any child 'rescue' agencies to rescue such children?

my god, my daughter is 11 yrs old too. i can't help the immense feeling of sadness when i read the story about that girl. what sort of father is that....
clouds said that what he did was illegal. hope he'll get his comeuppance.

well done clouds for your statement. are there any child 'rescue' agencies to rescue such children?

I googled Yemen embessy in Malta but apparently they don't have one in your place.

what I suggest is to make a complain to the nearest yemen embassy to your country:

http://yemen.visahq.com/embassy/Malta/

yes, i might do that and spread the word round.
in the meantime, is there an agency equivalent to the NSPCC in England (i'm mentioning the nspcc because it's a worldwide known child agency) whose mission is to rescue such girls. If i was the husband's neighbour i'd kidnap the kid and take her back to her mother.

From what I see, it's mostly the men who are deficient in understanding.

Granted that men and women are different.

but it doesn't mean they are not equal beings. Or that one's value is worth more than the other's.

It's like having a lock and a key.

What good is one without the other? So can you really choose which is more important?

No. You can't. Cos they are equal players. They are equally important. Equally valuable. And that's why they deserve to be treated equally. Be given equal rights etc etc..

Granted that men and women are different.

but it doesn't mean they are not equal beings. Or that one's value is worth more than the other's.

It's like having a lock and a key.

What good is one without the other? So can you really choose which is more important?

No. You can't. Cos they are equal players. They are equally important. Equally valuable.

lol a lock and a key, guess who is who!!!

beautifully put and said thanks Thalia.

So, is i