Yunan, Feb 3, 2008 / 04:35 am (CNA).- China Aid Association has learned that members of a House Church in Yunan Province were severely beaten by police officials on the morning of January 23. The incident occurred after two church members walked into the Xishan District's Public Security Bureau office to request an account of the items, including Bibles, that were taken from the church and burned by police officials in early December of 2007.

After ignoring the members’ request, officials proceeded to violently remove them from the office. One female church member, 54-year-old Ms. Liang Guihua, was thrown into a wall and rendered unconscious for more than 10 minutes.

Later that day, one of the Church’s members returned to the police station later that afternoon to request an account of the morning's incident. The official on duty told the member that he would not testify to the incident even though he had witnessed the account first-hand.

The series of events originated on December 5, 2007, when policemen and members of the Bureau of Ethnic and Religious Affairs disrupted the house church meeting in Kunming, and detained several members. After searching the building, police seized several hundred Christian books including Bibles and note-pads, and proceeded to burn them outside of the residence. Police also destroyed the identification cards of three of the church members and instructed the landlord of the building to cease rental agreements with the congregation.

Chinese law requires officials to issue certificates documenting items taken during seizures. The church members have requested documentation of the items on several occasions, but have been turned away by police officials every time.

We urge the international community to demand an accounting of these officials for the egregious acts committed against the house church members in Yunan Province.

To voice your concern over this incident, please contact:
Chinese Embassy in Washington DC
Address: 2201 Wisconsin Avenue, N.W., Washington D.C. 20007
Tel: (202) 338-6688, (202)5889760
Fax: (202) 588-9760


http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11656


One should condemn such act.

u r being an annoying spam

Of course it should be condemned!

And wtf is a "Bureau of Ethnic and Religious Affairs" ?

only in china. hardly surprising.
the country where they murder a seven month pregnancy to keep the one child per family going.

This is not acceptable, no matter where it is.
To uphold interfaith good relation, these nuisance acts should be condemned.
Eventually it get tagged with politics and corrupt politician take the 100% advantage.

Ok.

Now do some googling to what happens in Saudi Arabia to Bibles found on travellers.

only in china. hardly surprising.
the country where they murder a seven month pregnancy to keep the one child per family going.

That's the thing. It's not only in china.

Saudia also have a little reputation for the same kind of thing.

Well, I want to thank Mr. Shamsery for this thread.

I have noticed a couple of threads he has put up recently that are very friendly toward his Christian brothers and sisters.

It's worth pointing out that in China, both Christians and Muslims suffer persecution. Christians and Muslims have lived and suffered and died together in labor camps and still do so today.

Sinkiang, or what used to be called Chinese Turkestan, is a huge Muslim non-Chinese country essentially that is ruled by China. It's not Chinese, it has its own language and its own culture.

The Chinese have a policy of settling ethnic Chinese there in huge numbers so that today, the Uighurs are a minority in their own country. Islam is heavily monitored, the building of mosques is limited, Muslims who practice seriously are severely discriminated against.

And the Catholic Church is outright forbidden in China. Catholic in China have to choose between joing a "Chinese Catholic Church" that is controlled by the State and doesn't recognize the Pope or going to underground churches where they are subject to arrest.

There is a priest who helps out in my parish who escaped China shortly after the Communists took over. His uncle, who was also a priest, was crucified by the Communists for refusing to renounce his faith.

China is a place like the Soviet Union where Christians and Muslims are driven together to work as brothers because they are persecuted alike by the government. Out of that much good has come and can come.

You don't know Shamsery.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/c/c7/400px-Lockheed_MC-130_USAF_flares.jpg

I DO know Shamsery. We put out our hands to each other. We shook. We are friends.

Here's a thread complaining about Chinese persecution of Christians.

I mean, come on, man. Give the guy a break! :p

Okay, don't give him a break if you don't want to.

But he's my friend and this is a really nice post and a really nice gesture.

Ok.

Now do some googling to what happens in Saudi Arabia to Bibles found on travellers.


The reply is same as bellow.
White is white , never try to prove red.
You see every thing through your eyes , I see through my eyes.
Your understanding to you and mine is to me.
I am not slave or I bow my head before any one.

This is not acceptable, no matter where it is.
To uphold interfaith good relation, these nuisance acts should be condemned.
Eventually it get tagged with politics and corrupt politician take the 100% advantage.

However,

I did not find you opening any threads specifically criticizing Saudi Arabia.

There was a similar tread, did I open that?
May be others, cannot remember exactly.
One thing sure, I expresses same view.
My view, opinion, comments are based on philosophy not sudden.
I call spade as spade .

Thankfully most Christian churches are not this way and neither are public officials. China has a lot of human rights violations and why are we having the Olympics there ?????

Anyway, those Chinese public officials need to be jailed. Period.

Shammy, do you know what a 'flare' is ?

When a fighter aircraft releases a flare ?

Thankfully most Christian churches are not this way and neither are public officials. China has a lot of human rights violations and why we are having the Olympics there ?????

Anyway, those Chinese public officials need to be jailed. Period.

That is the question.
First bold portion in red.


2nd You cannot do anything to China accept issuing some diplomatic notes.
Jeff mentioned here , Muslim facing the same problem since long and all remain quite.
For Jeff, write on “Dalailam” please

Be "we" I mean the olympic officials who choose these places. Irregardless, to beat people for doing this is wrong. I think burning bibles is a grave sin but I would not beat someone up over it. For me it goes against Christian teaching and Jesus never approved that violence like that.

Shammy, do you know what a 'flare' is ?

When a fighter aircraft releases a flare ?

As a gentleman make the correction please,
Shamsery is not fake name.
Very true and original.
It is not only used by fighter aircraft, for the same reason, others also uses.
Yes, I know Go ahead please.

Be "we" I mean the olympic officials who choose these places. Irregardless, to beat people for doing this is wrong. I think burning bibles is a grave sin but I would not beat someone up over it. For me it goes against Christian teaching and Jesus never approved that violence like that.

It is an uncivilized act.
1.8 billion people respect the book and 1.5 billion people respect Jesus (Pbuh) as prophet.

You care it when the opposition is mighty.
But the core word , in a brief, every action for wealth.

There was a similar tread, did I open that?
May be others, cannot remember exactly.
One thing sure, I expresses same view.
My view, opinion, comments are based on philosophy not sudden.
I call spade as spade .Good ... then call this spade a spade (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22993135/from/ET/)
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Malaysian customs officials seized 32 Bibles from a traveler, a church federation said Monday, adding its voice to a raft of complaints that the Muslim-majority country is becoming less tolerant of other religions.

Come straight ... call it loud and clear.

Color me astounded !

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Malaysian customs officials seized 32 Bibles from a traveler, a church federation said Monday, adding its voice to a raft of complaints that the Muslim-majority country is becoming less tolerant of other religions.

If the news is true, not for the purpose malign Islam , we should condemn with high voice.
They are going against the teaching of Islam.

But what is it Mr Jack?

The Royal Malaysian Customs department, however, said it was only trying to determine if the Bibles were imported for commercial purposes.

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Malaysian customs officials seized 32 Bibles from a traveler, a church federation said Monday, adding its voice to a raft of complaints that the Muslim-majority country is becoming less tolerant of other religions.

If the news is true, not for the purpose malign Islam , we should condemn with high voice.
They are going against the teaching of Islam.

But what is it Mr Jack?

The Royal Malaysian Customs department, however, said it was only trying to determine if the Bibles were imported for commercial purposes.Can't quite bring yourself to ... come straight when a muslim is invovled ... eh shams.

Now is this guy going against the teaching of Islam (http://news yahoo.com/s/nm/20080203/wl_nm/pakistan_militant_dc_1;_ylt=AllV8q1iqtb.CVnlxaUbky jzPukA)
"But my religion compels me to fight against the occupiers until the last drop of my blood," he said, according to a witness among the scores of kinsmen and fighters who had assembled to commemorate the boy's martyrdom for the cause.

Come straight now shams ... tell us.

Come on now, Mr. Shamsery Esq,, surely you can read on...

Custom officials at an airport in Kuala Lumpur took the Bibles from a Malaysian woman Jan. 28 on her return from the Philippines, according to the Rev. Hermen Shastri, general secretary of the Council of Churches of Malaysia. She was carrying the Bibles for a study group, he said.


The woman was told that all religious materials had to be sent to the Internal Security Ministry's publications control unit for clearance, Shastri said, adding that he had never before heard of anyone being told to do this when bringing English-language Bibles into the country.

"It's getting from bad to worse," Shastri told The Associated Press. "This either points to a concerted effort to undermine the current practice of religious tolerance, or the religious enforcement authorities have been given a free hand and they are having a field day."

About 60 percent of Malaysia's 27 million people are Muslim Malays, who have generally lived peacefully with Christians, Buddhists and Hindus in the minority Chinese and Indians communities.

Ban on 'Allah'
However, the minorities have become increasingly worried that their constitutionally guaranteed right to worship is being gradually eroded. In a recent case that undermined minority confidence, the government banned the word "Allah" from Malay-language Bibles and other Christian publications, saying the word can only be used by Muslims.

Indians have also been enraged that their Hindu temples have been demolished by state authorities. Many legal disputes involving Muslims and non-Muslims have been ruled in favor of Muslims.

There is no evidence that Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi is encouraging the rise of Islamic tendencies in the country, and some critics have suggested it is the handiwork of overzealous Muslims in positions of authority.

However, Abdullah has been criticized for not reining in the Islamization process, which is threatening to tear the carefully nurtured racial peace in this multiethnic society.

In a statement, the Council of Churches called on Abdullah to publicly reassure Christians of their rights, and urged authorities to release the Bibles and issue a formal apology.

Customs department spokesman Iskandar Jaafar denied the Bibles were confiscated because of religious intolerance.

"It's the normal procedure" to check if so many books were being imported for commercial purposes, Jaafar said, adding that the Bibles had been sent to the Internal Security Ministry for vetting.

Like I said, colour me shocked, astounded, and wonderstruck ! Who've thunk something like this could have happened in a muslim majority country !

Mr. Shamsery, Esq, chose the Chinese because they are an easy target.

He can 'appear' to condem them for religious intolerance WITHOUT going against his brother muslims.

That why aircraft use flares.

To distract incoming missiles.

I didn't know that the Hindu temple was destroyed. God why? Where is the religious freedom of the minority here? Sad very sad. Disgusting also for such intolerance at any level. Makes me think of the Salem witch trials. Fear spreads a disease of hatred against those different from oneself. Not acting humanely but rather primitive.

There was a similar tread, did I open that?
May be others, cannot remember exactly.
One thing sure, I expresses same view.
My view, opinion, comments are based on philosophy not sudden.
I call spade as spade .Here's another spade ... Will you call this one a heart?

Early Happy Valetine to you mr shams. (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11402&size=A)
In the past the ‘Daughters of the Faith’ have acted on their threats, attacking stores that sold Valentine’s Day cards.

So tell us shams ... spade or heart?

And please do come straight ... :rolleyes:

Once again,

Mr. Shamsery Esq. has left the building.

Once again,

Mr. Shamsery Esq. has left the building.
no he's looking up in...um....wikipedia ?

I'm sure shams is out looking for a club ... he has a spade and heart ...

To condemn those that ... what did this thread start out ... beatings burning books.

Here's some more burning shams ... in your backyard (http://www.bosnewslife.com/news/3416-news-alert-elderly-burned-convert-dies-in)DHAKA, BANGLADESH (BosNewsLife)-- Christian villagers in a Muslim-majority area of Bangladesh on Tuesday, February 5, mourned the death of a 70-year-old woman who died from burns she suffered when a mob reportedly set her home ablaze as a punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity.

This should be cool with shams though. The woman was going against islam teaching ... right shams?

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

I'm goin to call this hadeth a diamond in the ruff ... how bout you shams?

Never trust the chinese shams ... they are godless!

Well, I don't know why we can't start with something.

I think shamsery meant this thread kindly. I insist on taking it that way.

The truth is duffer will never listen and practice curtsy.
So far I have learn through English grammar Mr and Esq cannot be used same time.

Here's another spade ... Will you call this one a heart?



So tell us shams ... spade or heart?

And please do come straight ... :rolleyes:

In the past the ‘Daughters of the Faith’ have acted on their threats, attacking stores that sold Valentine’s Day cards. Posted by Mr Jack

Look bellow the reason described in the same news that ignored by Mr Jack.

“calls on people not to celebrate Valentine’s Day, an event they deem immoral and contrary to Islam.”

Early Happy Valetine to you Mr Jack. (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11402&size=A)

Being a non-conservative, I agree with above statements.
Beside the theological concept it has political and sociological impact on the society and culture.
Our Bengali culture contradicts with the concept.
This is cultural colonization, more dangerous than direct occupation.
It is to be avoided.
Surprisingly , we are noticing that young generation practicing this Valentine’s Day for last two decades in Bangladesh.
It was introduced and publicized by one Rehman Sobham in Bangladesh through his popular weekly “Jai Jai Din” whom we consider a anti Bengali Nationalism , Anti Islam and devout servant of American Imperialism in Bangladesh.
Hope you are clear about my concept.

I'm sure shams is out looking for a club ... he has a spade and heart ...

To condemn those that ... what did this thread start out ... beatings burning books.

Here's some more burning shams ...
This should be cool with shams though. The woman was going against islam teaching ... right shams?

I'm goin to call this hadeth a diamond in the ruff ... how bout you shams?

Never trust the chinese shams ... they are godless!

http://www.bosnewslife.com/news/3416-news-alert-elderly-burned-convert-dies-in#




Rahima Beoa , Rahima is her name and “Beoa” means widow.
This widow is about 70 years old woman, if she wishes to change her faith, none should prevent her.
It should be treated as her personal matter.

In between the line, surly some interesting things are there.

This area is badly poor and many of them go to bed with empty stomach regularly.

I will request you all to penetrated in depth, are they converting for money or some other material benefit?

Do you think, giving some money to the poorest people and asking them to convert is fair?

If some one bring his /her believe in gospel and truly accept Christianity, none should oppose them.

My support will be with them.

This Muslim patriot and lovers should stand beside the poor and undeveloped people first then they should go for any action.

This idiots do not reserve any right to beat a hungry people.
To so called Muslim,
First give them food , shelter , education and medical facility other wise stop talking.

Mr Jack,
I am sorry, I shall not talk on Hadith.
I can talk on Holly Qur’an and I found in the Holy “There is no compulsion in religion” “Your faith is un to you and my is un to me”.

Well, I don't know why we can't start with something.

I think shamsery meant this thread kindly. I insist on taking it that way.

Never mind,
I am there at their disposal to answer any question.
If that is awesome or irritating, no matter.
I feel sorry when I loose temper.
They are twisting the thread and must have a reason.
Though I don't know.

Look bellow the reason described in the same news that ignored by Mr Jack.



Early Happy Valetine to you Mr Jack. (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11402&size=A)

Being a non-conservative, I agree with above statements.
Beside the theological concept it has political and sociological impact on the society and culture.
Our Bengali culture contradicts with the concept.
This is cultural colonization, more dangerous than direct occupation.
It is to be avoided.
Surprisingly , we are noticing that young generation practicing this Valentine’s Day for last two decades in Bangladesh.
It was introduced and publicized by one Rehman Sobham in Bangladesh through his popular weekly “Jai Jai Din” whom we consider a anti Bengali Nationalism , Anti Islam and devout servant of American Imperialism in Bangladesh.
Hope you are clear about my concept.
Oh. So because you agree that MUSLIMS shouldn't celebrate Valentines day, you can't find it in you to CONDEMN this group's violent actions..

So Jack was right.
Not that I ever doubted that anyway.. :hmm:

Never mind,
I am there at their disposal to answer any question.
If that is awesome or irritating, no matter.
I feel sorry when I loose temper.
They are twisting the thread and must have a reason.
Though I don't know.
Twisting?

I think it gets more interesting when people uncover just how bad the double standards are.. ;)

http://www.bosnewslife.com/news/3416-news-alert-elderly-burned-convert-dies-in#


This idiots do not reserve any right to beat a hungry people.



They burnt her inside her home. Not beat her. Did you miss that bit or can't you just help that urge to play it down for your 'brothers' ?

I thought you called a spade a spade. :rolleyes:

You are missing the point.
A faith, culture, custom never brought up in a day.
You are by passing the fundamental point “cultural Colonization”.
What calls I support again look bellow:
“calls on people not to celebrate Valentine’s Day, an event they deem immoral and contrary to Islam.”
Why you think they have no right to call then not to celebrate?
As far as violence, I don’t support that you should understand from my other post.

Did you read the post #34?
Why trying to mix-up my view with that lady?

You are missing the point.
A faith, culture, custom never brought up in a day.
You are by passing the fundamental point “cultural Colonization”.
What calls I support again look bellow:

Why you think they have no right to call then not to celebrate?
As far as violence, I don’t support that you should understand from my other post.

Did you read the post #34?
Why trying to mix-up my view with that lady?
I didn't see you condemn the fact that this group was attacking shops selling valentine's day cards and gifts.

What makes you think they have a right to force these shops to not sell such things? What about the people who's faith DOES NOT teach that Valentine's Day is not ok?

Yes. I think they have every right to "CALL" on muslims to not celebrate.. to remind them about what Islam says..

NO. I think they have NO RIGHT to TERRORISE shop owners who want to sell Valentine's Day related stuff..

Is that so hard to understand?

It needs not to mention, I condemn any type of violence.
They should not attack the shop or shopkeeper.
This is not the right way rather uncivilized.
We should condemn such acts and I do loudly.

It needs not to mention, I condemn any type of violence.
They should not attack the shop or shopkeeper.
This is not the right way rather uncivilized.
We should condemn such acts and I do loudly.
Good. I'm glad you do. :yes:

What is your opinion on , converting some one through bribing?

What is your opinion on , converting some one through bribing?
I think they are not real converts if that happened. To convert means to really believe in the religion you are converting to. To say you converted just to cash in on money is pretty low and a lie. The process of true conversion requires the heart to be in it.


What is your opinion on converting someone through blackmail? Like, "Convert or I'll divorce you.." ?

What is your opinion on converting someone through blackmail? Like, "Convert or I'll divorce you.." ?

I don’t support and hate it from the core of my heart.
I think that is a punishable crime.
I can easily predict your goal.
Anyway,

What is your opinion bombing on innocent people based on lie?

I don’t support and hate it from the core of my heart.
I think that is a punishable crime.
I can easily predict your goal.
Anyway,

What is your opinion bombing on innocent people based on lie?
Let me answer that with another question:

What is your opinion on silly political off topic questions in a religion forum?

Let me answer that with another question:

What is your opinion on silly political off topic questions in a religion forum?

Interchanging opinion, we talked on violence, divorce (human Rights) and asked your opinion.
You reply me from the religious point of view.
Does your faith allow or endorse such acts?

Did you notice how Mr. Shamsery, Esq. BA, LLB, Phd., wanted to examine some cases in depth to determine WHY muslims acted in the way they did but not so much with the Chinese ?

What is your opinion on , converting some one through bribing?

My opinion is that it is not any of your frigging business.

Did you notice how Mr. Shamsery, Esq. BA, LLB, Phd., wanted to examine some cases in depth to determine WHY muslims acted in the way they did but not so much with the Chinese ?

What a Gentleman can expect from you?
There is a word we practice, called, manners.
Don’t you represent your faith, cast, and nationality on board?
You are the proof that Zion’s and there friend , alleys represent the same corrector.

My opinion is that it is not any of your frigging business.

I know you have no reply and you can’t.

What business is it of yours what religion she chooses and why she chose it ?

Did not your Quran say "To you your religion to me mine ?"

Why don't you follow your Quran ?

It really is impossible for you to answer a direct question, isn't it Dr. Shamsery ?

It's like flogging a dead horse, but what the heck, I'll try again.

How does it concern you regarding the reasons she converted ?
Should she have been killed for whatever reason she converted ?