I heard that in Christianity you can guarantee your place in heaven by a sum of money you pay to the church.. i don't know what it's called in English but in Arabic i know it's called ' Sak ilghufran' literal translation: forgiveness contract.

is this right ?

I heard that in Christianity you can guarantee your place in heaven by a sum of money you pay to the church.. i don't know what it's called in English but in Arabic i know it's called ' Sak ilghufran' literal translation: forgiveness contract.

is this right ?
no. there is no way on earth you can buy your way to heaven.

I heard that in Christianity you can guarantee your place in heaven by a sum of money you pay to the church.. i don't know what it's called in English but in Arabic i know it's called ' Sak ilghufran' literal translation: forgiveness contract.

is this right ?I made a reservation but don't have a confirmation yet ... :rolleyes:

I made a reservation but don't have a confirmation yet ... :rolleyes:
First class ticket? Can I come too? :hyper:

agh guys am being serious in here :mmhmm:

minerva, i heard this and i read about in in Arabic, i just don't know what it's in English and it's given by the catholic church, maybe in the middle ages ?

agh guys am being serious in here :mmhmm:

minerva, i heard this and i read about in in Arabic, i just don't know what it's in English and it's given by the catholic church, maybe in the middle ages ?
There is no such thing El Rey.

IF you have a source for this info.. (try googling it) then bring it here (so we can debunk it for you. lol)

agh guys am being serious in here :mmhmm:

minerva, i heard this and i read about in in Arabic, i just don't know what it's in English and it's given by the catholic church, maybe in the middle ages ?
give us a link, possibly from vatican.com or any other reputable Catholic doctrine site. thanks :)

You are absolutely correct.

All you need is some moolah and you've got your ticket to heaven.

More information available below :

Buying your way to heaven (http://www.scientology.org/)

There is no such thing El Rey.

IF you have a source for this info.. (try googling it) then bring it here (so we can debunk it for you. lol)

give us a link, possibly from vatican.com or any other reputable Catholic doctrine site. thanks :)


the problem i just know it in arabic and i can't google it in English coz i dn't know the expression in English, though i found many sites talk about it in Arabic, i'll try to know what it means in English and get back to you
thanx for hurrying to debunk it :cute:

You are absolutely correct.

All you need is some moolah and you've got your ticket to heaven.

More information available below :

Buying your way to heaven (http://www.scientology.org/)

thanks :rolleyes:

I think you're referring to a practice called 'indulgences' which is no longer allowed.

But even indulgences did not get you a first class ticket on Virgin Airlines.

I think you're referring to a practice called 'indulgences' which is no longer allowed.

But even indulgences did not get you a first class ticket on Virgin Airlines.

Thanx wudjab ( this time i mean it ) and i still want to cremate you even more :D

yes it's indulgence what i meant.

http://ctlibrary.com/16493

i think this site is reputable. i just needed some information about it and if Catholics and Prostants have different views about it

I heard about it too, it's ridiculous to have such thoughts bfff

Hope this helps answer some of your Q's

WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS NOT

To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

OK, as a resident catholic I will explain this for everyone. This is a terrible stain on catholocism which started the protestant reformation. in the 11th-16th century the corrupt catholic church churches used to accept indulgences and they were told by priests that giving would forgive your sins and guarantee your spot in heaven. Obviously that is completely false, and people like Martin Luther (founder of the protestant reformation) protested against it, then was kicked out of the church. This started the protestant reformation and revolutionized christianity and divided the church.

thanx for your input tuff
This is new to me, never heard this stuff before.
El Rey from where did u get the arabic word of it?

Ah, hah, hah! Indulgences! I never thought I'd see a thread about indulgences on a Muslim website! :p

Indulgences have NOT been abolished. But they are widely misunderstood.

Indulgences have nothing to do with "securing a place in Heaven." Indulgences only apply to people who are going to Heaven.

If you are going to Hell, indulgences won't help you.

When people sin, they hurt the world in general. They make deposits in the debit column, if you will. And they also make themselves unfit for Heaven, they are stained and twisted by sin.

If you live a very holy life and you die, you might go straight to Heaven. Most people, though, who are manage to get to Heaven have not lived the lives of saints. They harmed the world more than they helped it. And they are still pretty messed up spiritually.

So what happens to them? They go to Purgatory. Purgatory is an intermediate state of purification in which the effects of your sin get purged away from you and you are purified and made ready to see God. And, by the way, you also make up for all that stuff in the debit column that you took out during your life.

When I die, I hope to go to Purgatory, inshallah.

An Indulgence is a way of mitigating or shortening the pains of souls in Purgatory or of those who may go there. Remember, all of these souls are ALREADY DESTINED FOR HEAVEN. When you die, you are judged and set out either for Heaven or Hell.

If you are going to Hell, you go straight there.

If you are going to Heaven and have lived and extraordinarily holy life, you might go straight to Heaven. Otherwise, you will go to Purgatory for a while first, until you are ready for Heaven.

Most people die with a "Negative Spiritual Balance". But some people--the saints, known and unknown--die with a "Positive Spiritual Balance". The put in more than they took out. This is called the "Treasury of the Merits of the Saints and of Christ".

Christ told Peter and the Apostles--and through them the Church--"I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed...whatever you bind on earth shall be held bound."

So the Church takes certain good works that it wants to encourage and says, "If you confess your sins and you are truly sorry for them and then do this work that we recommend, some of the time you would spend in Purgatory will be remitted because of the extra good works of others...IF you get to Purgatory at all. And you can apply this Indulgence through prayer to a soul that is in Purgatory, either a particular one or to souls in Purgatory in general."

It's a way of substituting one small good work for a lot of huge good works and letting the people who did the heavy lifting in life--the saints of God--do the heavy lifting for us. But it requires being sorry for our sins, confessing them, and having a purpose to amend our lives and do better.

If we live in an evil way and think we can "get out of it" by going through the motions, well: It won't work! If we are bound for Hell because we are evil and unrepentant, going through the motions won't help.

As Wudjab points out, in the Middle Ages Indulgences were sometimes abused. Sometimes an indulgence would be attached to a perfectly decent good work, like giving money for building a church. And sometimes a preacher who was preaching conversion would go a little overboard and create the impression that all you had to do was give some money and you could automatically get a soul released from purgatory.

A lot of this is Protestant exaggeration, but it did sometimes happen. So, part of the Catholic Church's response to the emergence of Protestantism was a strict rule that indulgences could never be given for anything relating to money.

But even the most ignorant Catholic never thought you could buy your way into Heaven if you merited Hell. Everyone knew and even the most exaggerated preacher preached about souls that were already on the WAY TO HEAVEN: Souls in Purgatory.

Short answer: No. The Catholic Church has never taught that you can buy yourself a way to Heaven. Or that you can reserve your place in Heaven by doing anything. No one has an assurance of going to Heaven until they die and come before the Judgment Seat of God.

But if you were sorry for your sins and as part of trying to do better you did certain good works recommended by the Church, you might be able to shorten your stay or that of another in Purgatory. It's not allowed to do this with money any more, though it once was.

Okay, class. Anybody who read THE WHOLE THING gets an indulgence... Class? Class? )

Pope approves Lourdes indulgences

Pope Benedict XVI has authorised special indulgences to mark the 150th anniversary of the Virgin Mary's reputed appearance at Lourdes.

Catholics visiting the site within a year of 8 December will be able to receive an indulgence, which the Church teaches can reduce time in purgatory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7131088.stm

I think that historical record and lutherans would tend to disagree with you Jeff, lets look at the facts: Purgatory was invented by the catholics ( I am a catholic so I can say that) Indulgences were sold and were actually promoted by the pope. The uneducated fell prey to this terrible practice and prompted martin luther. Ill just use wikipedia as a source because i dont feel like getting a legit one.

taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences#Controversy_in_the_16th_century

"The abuse of indulgences led in part to the start of the Protestant Reformation.[2]

The ability to grant full or partial pardons from the punishment of sins has been claimed by members of the Western Church's hierarchy throughout history.[citation needed] These indulgences were related to the removal of the temporal punishment of forgiven sinners.

In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The aggressive marketing practices of Johann Tetzel in promoting this cause provoked Martin Luther to write his 95 theses, protesting what he saw as the purchase and sale of salvation. In thesis 28 Luther objected to a saying attributed to Tetzel: "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs".[8] The 95 Theses not only denounced such transactions as worldly but denied the Pope's right to grant pardons on God's behalf in the first place: the only thing indulgences guaranteed, Luther said, was an increase in profit and greed, because the pardon of the Church was in God's power alone.[9]

While Luther did not deny the Pope’s right to grant pardons for penance imposed by the Church, he made it clear that preachers who claimed indulgences absolved buyers from all punishments and granted them salvation were in error.[10] This was a key issue in the genesis of Protestant Reformation."


BASICALLY what that means is the pope said, if you give money to build us a big headquarters, we will forgive your sins -- bribery in the truest sense of the word. You cant bribe God, and you cant say catholics never taught that you can buy your way to heaven, because the pope himself said that you can forgive sins by donating money. Jeff, you are looking at a loophole like a lawyer, I like that you are trying to clear things up, but do not try to cover them up in the process. the catholic church is not infallible as much as it sucks to say it.

btw, purgatory was never mentioned by Jesus nor is it in the bible, it was used to extort money from people in the dark ages. This time in Catholic history is a dark stain and most of these practices have since been discontinued.

I read the whole thing!! :D Lol

It kinda answered a question I posted in Understanding who Jesus is in the lives of Christians....

Well, of course, LUTHERANS disagree, tuff guy. They are Lutherans.

I don't know where you got your quotation, but even your quotation of Tetzel's exaggerated marketing proves the basic point:

"As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs"

This is about souls who are in purgatory, i.e., souls that are destined for Heaven.

No doubt that the Church can do bad things occasionally, if that's what you mean.

Or perhaps you mean that don't believe what the Church teaches on various matters. I can't do anything about that can I? :p

All I can do is answer the question in terms of Catholic doctrine. I have no trouble believing it at all.

btw, purgatory was never mentioned by Jesus nor is it in the bible, it was used to extort money from people in the dark ages. This time in Catholic history is a dark stain and most of these practices have since been discontinued.

Well, as I said, perhaps you have you own unique view on these things! :p

I am not your dogma policeman.

To keep it simple, I guess we can say that some Catholics don't believe certain things the Church teaches.

Others do.

I am one of the latter.

understood, but remember why the concept of purgatory was invented in the first place (I went to catholic high school, I know a lot about the theological background). It was invented to scare people into doing the indulgence thing, just remember, even though catholic, not everything they say is true. I am a practicing catholic, I go to church, and I believe that catholocism is right, but its not perfect. Just follow Jesus, and he said nothing of purgatory or of indulgences, so just be careful!

Well, I think we could have an argument about "why purgatory was invented" or indeed if it was invented at all. But perhaps this is not the time or the place.

What happens in the purgatory state? Do you repent or are punished for your sins?

haha true story, we should start another thread, I would like to see your input into the purgatory matter, you seem to be a smart guy; maybe you know something that I dont. ill start another thread

Hope this helps answer some of your Q's

OK, as a resident catholic I will explain this for everyone. This is a terrible stain on catholocism which started the protestant reformation. in the 11th-16th century the corrupt catholic church churches used to accept indulgences and they were told by priests that giving would forgive your sins and guarantee your spot in heaven. Obviously that is completely false, and people like Martin Luther (founder of the protestant reformation) protested against it, then was kicked out of the church. This started the protestant reformation and revolutionized christianity and divided the church.

Ah, hah, hah! Indulgences! I never thought I'd see a thread about indulgences on a Muslim website! :p

Indulgences have NOT been abolished. But they are widely misunderstood.

Indulgences have nothing to do with "securing a place in Heaven." Indulgences only apply to people who are going to Heaven.
)


I think you're referring to a practice called 'indulgences' which is no longer allowed.




ok am confused now :cry:


thanx for your input tuff
This is new to me, never heard this stuff before.
El Rey from where did u get the arabic word of it?

well, take another look into your question
from where did u get the ARABIC word of it
guess what am an ARAB :hyper:

Well, of course, LUTHERANS disagree, tuff guy. They are Lutherans.

Then what's the meaning of the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification signed in 1999 ?

Only morons will fall for this one..

Fee money back guarantee?:rolleyes:

I am a practicing catholic, I go to church, and I believe that catholocism is right, but its not perfect. Just follow Jesus, and he said nothing of purgatory or of indulgences, so just be careful!

what we have here

tuff guy is a "Salafi" Catholic Christian *smile*

he is against innovation in Christianity

Purgatory is an innovation, careful Jeff !!

I suppose the equivelant of Purgatory in Islam what we call " Al Barzakh", which we do not know much about, but all the souls of the dead people will be gathered there awaiting judgement day.

for believers the barzakh time will be very fast

for disbelievers it will take ages

We seem to have an agent provocateur who has joined this sabla, don't we?

When people open their posts loudly proclaiming their religious affiliations (ie, I'm the resident Catholic) then alarm bells go off immediately.

It doesn't help when the same 'resident catholic' denigrates different Catholic doctrine.

Come on tuffy, fess up and tell us who you really are.

I have couple of questions for jeff based on Indulgentiarum doctrinae by pope Paulus VI (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html)

The initial statement says that the doctrin of the indulgence has a basis in the Books .
Where exactly ?
Then the Pope explains how people on earth can intercede for the souls of those in purgatory . Isn't this in contraddiction with some scriptures where personal responsibility on asking for forgiveness is stressed and how possible anyway that human beings can achieve more than jesus and the Saints ?
Why the temporal punishment is not included in the baggage of sins for which Jesus died ?
Where does exactly this treasury of the Church come from ?

I have couple of questions for jeff based on Indulgentiarum doctrinae by pope Paulus VI (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html)

The initial statement says that the doctrin of the indulgence has a basis in the Books .
Where exactly ?
Then the Pope explains how people on earth can intercede for the souls of those in purgatory . Isn't this in contraddiction with some scriptures where personal responsibility on asking for forgiveness is stressed and how possible anyway that human beings can achieve more than jesus and the Saints ?
Why the temporal punishment is not included in the baggage of sins for which Jesus died ?
Where does exactly this treasury of the Church come from ?

Does the initial statement say that? I don't know what it means anyway and I can't find it in the first few paragraphs.

If you mean what basis is there in apostolic teachings, well, the Pope outlines them one by one, just as I did in the other thread. You have to read the whole document.

Who said Jesus' death has nothing to do with helping with remission of the temporal punishment due to sin? It's part of what is drawn on when an indulgence is attached to a good work. What saints and other human beings achieve is not APART from Christ, but IN Christ. These are things that Christ accomplishes and merits that He accumulates THROUGH His followers. They are the power of Christ's redeeming death continuing through time.

Jesus' death opens the door to eternal life. But the REASON why God doesn't just proclaim forgiveness of sin, the reason why His Son needed to come to die to cure it is precisely that sin is not just disobedience it is a disease which has taken over mankind and the world. It needs a cure.

The cure comes from Christ's death. But we have to "take up our cross and follow [Him]" as Jesus says. We have to walk on the way with Him. And that involves becoming "perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect." This is a commandment. We must become perfect. When we are warped and bent out of shape by the effects of our personal sin, we need healing. That healing comes from purification, either before death or after. It's all in the Pope's document.

And I have outlined just there some of the basis for the teaching on Indulgences as the Pope says it is "to be found in Divine Revelation". Bible quotes like I've given you are part of Divine Revelation. And the constant understanding of them throughout the History of the Church is also Divine Revelation, called Tradition.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

2 Thessalonians 2: 15.

And this is where the Treasury of Merit comes from. From the purifying and healing good works of Christ and His followers. In the end, it all comes from Christ. But some through Christ directly and also through Christ with the free cooperation of those who love Him.

It belongs to the Church because Christ said, "I give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven: Whatever you hold bound on earth is bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose is loosed in Heaven." Remember that the Church IS Christ living and acting in the world today. It is His Body.

We seem to have an agent provocateur who has joined this sabla, don't we?

When people open their posts loudly proclaiming their religious affiliations (ie, I'm the resident Catholic) then alarm bells go off immediately.

It doesn't help when the same 'resident catholic' denigrates different Catholic doctrine.

Come on tuffy, fess up and tell us who you really are.

lol the last line of defense?
throwing hints when you have nothing to say? ;)

Thanks jeff
I'd appreciate if you answered also my question about the meaning of that agreement of 1999, since lutherans [given that specially this current Pope is particularly fond of indulgences] are bit upset from Church behaviour in giving them too often

Woody
all religions have flaws, enough you speak with an atheist/agnostic
If the weak side of Islam can [but I disagree it is] be found in the developing of the Islamic jurisprudence with the four schools or with the recent differentiation between moderate and extremists, due to the wrong way they study the Books, same can be found in Christianity
The major limit of this religion is that it is a "doctrine", thus mostly based on the elaboration of the scriptures done by the Church which has created divisions and difficulty among the followers to explain some things
Same as you, not even my mother who spends her day through prayers, church, catholic groups, would be able to explain what jeff does
Whoever tuffy is, is good he joined cause Muslims must know about others religions being divided same or more than we are and the danger that this brings, they must know the importance of studying their religion on the books, and find their way to unity through God, their need of Him

yeah, that pretty much sums it up. God is not flawed, however religion is, Judaism Christianity and Islam are all flawed because they are of man, not God. Though we choose to worship God in different ways and hold different beliefs about teachings, we all believe in the same God and we are all His children.