Why is it that sometimes i hear people and hear them in movies call Jesus "Lord"? I thought that is what they called God. God is the Lord. So why call him after God? They even say it in prayers..."Thank the Lord Jesus Christ". why is that?

Because Jesus IS God.

Do THEY think that?

This is the central doctrine of Christianity: God came to earth in the form of a man and died to save us from our sins. It's called "the Incarnation".

"Incarnation: a term used to refer to the assumption of human nature by God, in the person of Jesus Christ."

http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/r/robbins/1JM8Q-PHIL203/ChristianTerms.html

"Lord" is what all His followers call Jesus in the Bible and what all of His followers afterward have called Him.

Same here.. i get confised also.. i attend a catholic school cuz its the onlys chool frigen close by ( really its like 2 millin years away).. They call Jesus God AND Lord or one or the other.. ima confuzed -_-

jeff: oh..:omg: now THAT is interesting. But people still believe that?? Do they REALLY believe that God came in A HUMAN form??:os and why did they choose Jesus and not any other prophet?

Same here.. i get confised also.. i attend a catholic school cuz its the onlys chool frigen close by ( really its like 2 millin years away).. They call Jesus God AND Lord or one or the other.. ima confuzed -_-

i get confused too:os

Yes, I can see how it would seem strange! :p

For us it seems odd that you guys only see Him as a prophet, though...

When we read the Bible or listen to our hearts and try to understand the world, it seems so clear to us that He was so much more... :)

It's a big job for Muslims and Christians to understand each other. There are lots of big differences; lots of similarities, too!

But the beginning of understanding is just listening, I think. So, it's good to ask questions.

Why is it that sometimes i hear people and hear them in movies call Jesus "Lord"? I thought that is what they called God. God is the Lord. So why call him after God? They even say it in prayers..."Thank the Lord Jesus Christ". why is that?

I think you can find the best explanation in a speech given during a general audience in 1985 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19851009en.html)by His Holiness John Paul II
Jesus is God manifestation to humans
It is a concept derived from the New Testament, which was elaborated during two Councils by the Church
It is a dogma called Holy mistery cause it doesn't have a logical explanation but is something in which Christians believe

Because Jesus IS God.

Can you prove ?

This is the central doctrine of Christianity: God came to earth in the form of a man and died to save us from our sins. It's called "the Incarnation".

"Incarnation: a term used to refer to the assumption of human nature by God, in the person of Jesus Christ."

http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/r/robbins/1JM8Q-PHIL203/ChristianTerms.html

"Lord" is what all His followers call Jesus in the Bible and what all of His followers afterward have called Him.



Dear Jeff,
It is a fundamental difference of Islamic theology with other.
We don’t believe in incarnation of Allah(swt).
Last word from our faith is “ your religion thy unto you.”

thank you amo I oman. Why is there a "new" testament? how can someone come along an change things and then others follow?:os

thanks jeff..that was very well put :)

shamsery, wudjab's just being silly.

They cover different periods in history
In the old testament God sets up the bases for His alliance with the people of Israel [in fact it's the equivalent of the Jewsh bible], in the new he perfects it with the coming of Christ .
So as the Pope said, the old testament is a sort of preparation to the new .

oh i see :) thanks for that. lol alllll this time i wanted to know:XD:
i just lifted a mountain off my back.

How could you possibly not know this??? Especially you juju :os

I'm very confused about religion and still confused even after reading this!

Christians think Jesus is God.

A lot of Christians were disturbed by this whole concept of dying for their sins etc. Some who have reverted to Islam got all this cleared out and now when you talk to them they say everything makes sense.

Lets hope to hear the same theme from Jeff very soon, Inshallah...

Christians think Jesus is God.

A lot of Christians were disturbed by this whole concept of dying for their sins etc. Some who have reverted to Islam got all this cleared out and now when you talk to them they say everything makes sense.

Lets hope to hear the same theme from Jeff very soon, Inshallah...
Am not sure I understood.. but no one DIES for their sins.. It was Jesus who died for our sins. To win the battle of good over evil through his death. He died, and won death over when he resurrected.

No one else dies FOR their sins.

thank you amo I oman. Why is there a "new" testament? how can someone come along an change things and then others follow?:os

thanks jeff..that was very well put :)

shamsery, wudjab's just being silly.
AE. Wudjab is not being silly. He is answering your question according to his beliefs as a christian.

If I said... why does everyone call Mohammed a prophet? You will reply "because he IS a prophet" ... To you it seems like the most simple matter-of-fact thing.

So understand that to Wudjab, Jesus being God is also the most simple matter-of-fact thing.

^You know this question was always on my mind...
If I mess up my entire life, do whatever that is forbidden, harm people, be evil, be horrible, kill people, do adultery, do everything bad...With full conviction that it is the right thing and is the best thing. If I'm a Christian by birth and name, do I still get to go STRAIGHT to Heaven? In other words, no judgement, nothing...Just Heaven?

Cause the part about 'dying for the sins of mankind' I fail to understand, constantly! And it kind of...I don't know, it makes it sound like God is unfair, again something I can't digest.

I got a question...Does Christianity have levels in Heaven? Like the better person you are the higher the level of Heaven you are going to enter in the end?

Thats what I meant, Jesus died for their sins. If Jesus is God, And God is so powerful, why should he die, instead he could have just killed them all.

^You know this question was always on my mind...
If I mess up my entire life, do whatever that is forbidden, harm people, be evil, be horrible, kill people, do adultery, do everything bad...With full conviction that it is the right thing and is the best thing. If I'm a Christian by birth and name, do I still get to go STRAIGHT to Heaven? In other words, no judgement, nothing...Just Heaven?

Cause the part about 'dying for the sins of mankind' I fail to understand, constantly! And it kind of...I don't know, it makes it sound like God is unfair, again something I can't digest.

I asked the same exact question once here and the answer is yes, Jesus is the savior

Can you prove ?


Only if you can prove that an angel appeared to Mohammed and a winged flying horse called the Buraq exists.


AngelEyes, I wasn't being silly, I was 100% serious.

Try to respect other peoples beliefs if you expect us to respect yours.

Jesus is the savior

Let us agree for a moment with you just for argument shake(Not faith).

Savior for whom?


kill people, do adultery etc.,etc as mentioned earlier by a member.

Are they fall under the category?

^You know this question was always on my mind...
If I mess up my entire life, do whatever that is forbidden, harm people, be evil, be horrible, kill people, do adultery, do everything bad...With full conviction that it is the right thing and is the best thing and with full conviction. If I'm a Christian by birth and name, do I still get to go STRAIGHT to Heaven? In other words, no judgement, nothing...Just Heaven?

Cause the part about 'dying for the sins of mankind' I fail to understand, constantly! And it kind of...I don't know, it makes it sound like God is unfair, again something I can't digest.

I dont think so, not all who believe that Christ is God go to heaven.
the way I understand it, is that without believing that Christ is your Saviour, you will go to hell no matter how good deeds you do.
With Christ as a Saviour, you will go to heaven with the good deeds you do.
With Christ as a Saviour, it is not guaranteed that u go to hell if you don't do good deeds.

I hope I said it correctly

^ It's not the way I understood it...What I understood is as long as you believe Christ is your savior then you go to Heaven because he died for your sins.

Let's let one of our Christian members clarify this point and also if there are ranks of Heaven in Christianity :)

Poor Jeff, you've gone over this so many times already, seems like the class hasn't been following along.

Please have a special 101 with Shamsery, he needs more work than most.

I dont think so, not all who believe that Christ is God go to heaven.

Precondition, one have to believe that “Jesus is God almighty”
Do you mean that , please?

Only if you can prove that an angel appeared to Mohammed and a winged flying horse called the Buraq exists.
I know you'd pick up this :cute:
You can't compare the two
Something is saying that Miraj al Isra is a miracle granted to Muhammad :PBUH:
Something else is saying that God expresses Himself in a human body, being this the core of Christian doctrine

Precondition, one have to believe that “Jesus is God almighty”
Do you mean that , please?

yes, that's what Christians like Jeff, wudjab and Thalia believe

I know you'd pick up this :cute:
You can't compare the two
Something is saying that Miraj al Isra is a miracle granted to Muhammad :PBUH:
Something else is saying that God expresses Himself in a human body, being this the core of Christian doctrine


Whatever rocks your boat Amo, whatever rocks your boat.

I find it more believable that God became Man and died for us than that a mythical flying horse magically appeared, that the moon split and that ants talk.

But like I said, whatever rocks your boat.

Poor Jeff, you've gone over this so many times already, seems like the class hasn't been following along.

Please have a special 101 with Shamsery, he needs more work than most.

Not working with one sites only, working and taking help of many more sites.
Quoting from many books.
By the way, accept the challenge like an intelligent brave man , don’t get in to the pigeon hole .

yes, that's what Christians like Jeff, wudjab and Thalia believe

Again condition.
What the Christian believe and their concept.
I think they are not the sole agent of Christianity?
Assume you are also a Christian , what you find in your Holy Book.

I dnt need to rock my boat :D
In the end whether you or I, die as believers or not, is not in my hands
God decided that

The miracles performed by Muhammad :PBUH: and his predictions on the future, are functional but not central in the message
We believe in the 5 pillars and in the 6 articles of faith : this is the core of our religion
If an atheist or an agnostic comes to me to argue that am believing in fairy tales, I can debate with them til a certain extent cause we rely on different patterns
But if you believe in a message which has as central point a dogma, that is different

What ! You are telling me that there are things in the Quran about Mohammed that you CANNOT scientifically prove !

Wow !

I thought that the burden of proof lay soley with the Christians and the Bible !

Talk about the pot and kettle and black.

I dnt need to rock my boat :D
In the end whether you or I, die as believers or not, is not in my hands
God decided that

The miracles performed by Muhammad :PBUH: and his predictions on the future, are functional but not central in the message
We believe in the 5 pillars and in the 6 articles of faith : this is the core of our religion
If an atheist or an agnostic comes to me to argue that am believing in fairy tales, I can debate with them til a certain extent cause we rely on different patterns
But if you believe in a message which has as central point a dogma, that is different

Very well said about atheist but they also provide some logic, scientific evidence, philosophical concept, though it is from the opposite direction. They can go up to certain extent and then go for pack up.

What ! You are telling me that there are things in the Quran about Mohammed that you CANNOT scientifically prove !

What we call Ghaib [unseen] is slightly different than saying that God became human and died on the cross

I didnt open this thread for arguement.

ok Thalia :bored:

So ok, another question...if i come up to a Christian and i wanted to ask them about God, they would auotmatically think i am talking about Jesus?:think:

Again condition.
What the Christian believe and their concept.
I think they are not the sole agent of Christianity?
Assume you are also a Christian , what you find in your Holy Book.

I know what you're getting at Shamsery, Yes I believe in the same thing as you.
But thats what Christianity was for ages, is currently, and will be :)

What ! You are telling me that there are things in the Quran about Mohammed that you CANNOT scientifically prove !

Wow !

I thought that the burden of proof lay soley with the Christians and the Bible !

Talk about the pot and kettle and black.

Totally nonsense.
Hope you read and write better than me.
Check the post and find there are 3 (Three) challenge waiting for you.
You need not prove any thing about Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) , if you bear the intellect and capability , disprove those and go back to the original thread .

Here you can prove “Jesus is God” based on science.
You can prove that the bible has not been altered ..


Can you?

You first.

You have TONS of questions you have dodged or run away from.

Deal with them first and then you have earned the right to ask new questions.

You first.

You have TONS of questions you have dodged or run away from.

Deal with them first and then you have earned the right to ask new questions.

was this directed to me?

ok, what about the answer to my second question?:shy:

Totally nonsense.
Hope you read and write better than me.
Check the post and find there are 3 (Three) challenge waiting for you.
You need not prove any thing about Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) , if you bear the intellect and capability , disprove those and go back to the original thread .

Here you can prove “Jesus is God” based on science.
You can prove that the bible has not been altered ..


Can you?I'm with you shamy ... can't be done with ... can't be done with ANY religion that I know of.

Well maybe Scientology (http://www.scientology.org/)

Maybe you should be looking there for answers if you want science to affirm your religion.

But believe IMO ... there are a little out there if you know what I mean.

hello?? question...........
...if i come up to a Christian and i wanted to ask them about God, they would auotmatically think i am talking about Jesus?

hello?? question...........
...if i come up to a Christian and i wanted to ask them about God, they would auotmatically think i am talking about Jesus?Yes and the Holy Ghost ... aka: trinity

WOW, this is something i never heard before. wow, thank you for that. I've been wanting to know that for ages. :cute:
very interesting.

I know what you're getting at Shamsery, Yes I believe in the same thing as you.
But thats what Christianity was for ages, is currently, and will be :)

and what do you think, as a Muslim ? do you believe that Jesus is God ?

this thread is about christianity..lol, let's not go off-topic into islam...
we already know what islam says.

and what do you think, as a Muslim ? do you believe that Jesus is God ?

lool just take a look at your question for a minute.
as a MUSLIM, do i believe that JESUS IS GOD!?
:hyper:

this thread is about christianity..lol, let's not go off-topic into islam...
we already know what islam says.

Exactly, my point.
AE said it all, lets stick to the topic please

I'm with you shamy ... can't be done with ... can't be done with ANY religion that I know of.

Well maybe Scientology (http://www.scientology.org/)

Maybe you should be looking there for answers if you want science to affirm your religion.

But believe IMO ... there are a little out there if you know what I mean.

Well Mr Jack,
I shall take a deep look and study the site provided by you.
You can come from the ancient Greece Philosopher to Hegel.
We can discuss nook and corner of Idealism.
But the Holy Qur’an is such a book that do not contradict with modern science.
Hope to attend you tomorrow.
Thank you for presenting red rose.

A question...
If I create something, why do I need to become whatever I created in order to overcome the shortcomings of my creations? How is it then possible that God must become a creature of His own creation in order to free all his creations from sin? Does God need to 'defy' death even though it is His very creation?

Waiting for answers :cute:

^You know what they say about people in glass houses throwing stones?

Why didn't your god make you sinless?

Why didn't your god make you sinless?

At birth we are :)

At birth we are :)
What you smilin at :)

You know what I mean.

If you wanna play the game of attacking Christian beliefs with logic, you better get ready for a taste of your own medicine.

I always use smileys :pNo need to be so sensitive
We are just asking, same as you do about Islam

I always use smileys :pNo need to be so sensitive[QUOTE]
I'm kidding.
[QUOTE]We are just asking, same as you do about Islam
There's asking to get info and there's asking as a crafty way to undermine peopls beliefs.

Threadalike is a very polite guy
Moreover, when your faith is strong, no silly comment can undermine it

Shai, I'm sorry if I offended your beliefs or anybody's beliefs!
It was never my intention :os. It was simply a question...

Threadlike- I don't have dogmatic or faith-based beliefs, so if I change my mind about something it's no big deal, but imagine if you succeeded in undermining a Christian's beliefs, they'd probably feel devastated right? You're definitely not gonna do that here, but the fact that you (plural) are even trying to... is kinda funny. Seeing as you're in the same delicate position as them.

Actually Christians believe babies are born with the original sin so technically, at least in the Roman Catholic viewpoint, we are not born sinless. In addition, I thought we discussed the Trinity on another thread? Unless that is why this one was started to just talk about the Holy "T"?

shai, I am not 'trying' to undermine anybody's beliefs...I am 'trying' to learn, to understand...But to undermine and offend, not really. And what is the...'delicate position'? That sounds pretty sick...But well, awaiting your answer.
marianna raised a good point, I will check the other thread(s) on the Trinity and see if I can find an answer...

Threadlike- I don't have dogmatic or faith-based beliefs, so if I change my mind about something it's no big deal, but imagine if you succeeded in undermining a Christian's beliefs, they'd probably feel devastated right? You're definitely not gonna do that here, but the fact that you (plural) are even trying to... is kinda funny. Seeing as you're in the same delicate position as them.

Ok
can you then answer to AE questions please
I dnt want to hear from jeff lessons cause he is a professional
I want to have reasonable answers from a "normal" person like me who attended religious lessons since childhood at school or at the Church [I assume UK system is more or less like the Italian one]

A question to Christians:

Do you realy believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross?

if he did die where is his body (grave) now?

I dnt need to rock my boat :D
In the end whether you or I, die as believers or not, is not in my hands
God decided that

The miracles performed by Muhammad :PBUH: and his predictions on the future, are functional but not central in the message
We believe in the 5 pillars and in the 6 articles of faith : this is the core of our religion
If an atheist or an agnostic comes to me to argue that am believing in fairy tales, I can debate with them til a certain extent cause we rely on different patterns
But if you believe in a message which has as central point a dogma, that is different

Well, in a way I agree with this.

Christianity BEGINS with a jaw dropping claim and message. That's how it packs the punch it does. It makes an almost unbelievable claim which requires faith.

Islam BEGINS with things that are much more ordinary and plain-seeming. God reigns; you must submit to Him; He has laws He wishes you to follow.

When Muslims say, "How on EARTH can you POSSIBLY believe that God became a MAN and WHY ON EARTH should He DIE for us on the CROSS?", I think they are having the normal reaction.

I dnt want to hear from jeff lessons cause he is a professional


Ha, ha! What does that mean?

Anyway, I think I'd rather take a back seat on this thread. My feeling is that poor AE kind of intended the thread to answer something that surprised her:

"Why do Christians call Jesus "Lord"? I thought only God was called "Lord"? Do Christians really believe He is God?"

Somehow I wish the thread was more geared toward HER and not just to the arguments we Religion Debaters always have. I feel we are just talking to each other instead of to her. I guess that's allowed, but somehow disappointing...

But if anyone wants the "professional" answer to these questions, then Thalia's Jesus for Christians thread would be a good place to ask them...

^^Jeff, you answered my first part of the question that Jesus pbuh died on the cross.

what about the other part of my question, where is his body (grave) now?

^^

What does the Quran say about that ?

There's your answer.

^^Jeff, you answered my first part of the question that Jesus pbuh died on the cross.

what about the other part of my question, where is his body (grave) now?

But I said that I felt sad that this was just being used as a general debating thread about Christianity instead of focussing on Angel Eyes and her question.

And not everyone is delighted that everywhere they turn, they find me speaking my piece! (See amo's post.)

So...ask me on Thalia's thread and I will answer! :)

shai, I am not 'trying' to undermine anybody's beliefs...I am 'trying' to learn, to understand...But to undermine and offend, not really. And what is the...'delicate position'? That sounds pretty sick...But well, awaiting your answer.
marianna raised a good point, I will check the other thread(s) on the Trinity and see if I can find an answer...
Your delicate position is that if your beliefs are proved wrong then your whole life will fall apart.
Ok
can you then answer to AE questions please
I dnt want to hear from jeff lessons cause he is a professional
I want to have reasonable answers from a "normal" person like me who attended religious lessons since childhood at school or at the Church [I assume UK system is more or less like the Italian one]
Ok... Christians do believe that Jesus Christ is God, our Lord and Saviour.

If you talk to a Christian about God, they probably won't think you're talking specifically about Jesus, unless you say Jesus.

Christian heaven does not have levels, just in or out.

^^Jeff I feel lazy to look up for Thalia's old thread

just do me a favour and answer here please on this thread

Angel Eyes no offence, I did not go off topic

Please, Jeff.. answer him.

Thalia's thread isn't old...
You'll find it as the second thread from this one on the same forum :os

Shai, that isn't really a delicate position...
If I find a better belief, I'm ready to change...Until then, I am happy with what I have...Actually, very happy with what I have. Nobody knows if they're gonna stay Muslim or Christian their entire life...But we hope for the best.

Look, if I asked a question about cars (I know nothing about them) on the automotive thread and then all the car guys started talking and arguing with each other with high powered arguments that they had been perfecting over months and years, I would soon feel like the conversation didn't include me.

I'm not saying you are WRONG to be debating here or that you are off topic. I am just saying that as far as I am concerned, I prefer to try to keep focussed on Angel Eyes and her question. That's just my weird way of trying to respect her, I guess! :p

So...I will answer your question on Thalia's thread. Then you can respond there or not as you choose...

Same goes for anyone else's questions relating to Jesus and Christianity...

^^Jeff, I didn't go off topic

we are still discussing why Jesus pbuh is called Lord, and thats AE question isn't it?

But I want to know where is the body of Jesus pbuh now after he DIED on the cross?

It's so simple question Jeff

I know you can answer it

Shai, that isn't really a delicate position...
Yes it is.
If I find a better belief, I'm ready to change...Until then, I am happy with what I have...Actually, very happy with what I have.
When did I say you're not "happy with what you have"? I said your world would fall apart if your beliefs were proven false.

^^Jeff, I didn't go off topic

we are still discussing why Jesus pbuh is called Lord, and thats AE question isn't it?

But I want to know where is the body of Jesus pbuh now after he DIED on the cross?

It's so simple question Jeff

I know you can answer it

Already answered on Thalia's thread.

hello?? question...........
...if i come up to a Christian and i wanted to ask them about God, they would auotmatically think i am talking about Jesus?

If you came up to me and asked me about God, I would usually think of God the Father. Otherwise, I would think of the Godhead, God in general in His Unity, God as the Divine Nature.

One way to think of it is imagine yourself writing a story. And one of the characters in the story is You.

God put Himself into His Story, the story of the World He created.

We know about the Character, but we also know about the Author.

So, I think most Christians, if you talk about God in general will think of the Author and not the Character, even though they are both God.

Jesus is God. But God is more than just Jesus.

Amen using an analogy of God the author developing a storyline appeals to this writer and is (to me) very straight forward and like how you put it Jeff. Thanks.

Jesus christ!

you didn't know?

Christians do believe that Jesus and God are one. Jesus is the Son of God incarnate. Jesus did die on the cross, after 3 days he rose and ascended into heaven, the tomb in which he was laid is called the Holy Sepulchre, it is located in Jesuralem and there is a church built around it. These are fundamental tenants of Christianity. Jesus death and bearing the burden of our sins is a testament to how much God truly loves us. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son."

Is the Church in any danger of being harmed beacuse of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

no, it is within the walls of the old city, was just there this summer. The israeli/palestinian conflict is a disgrace, israel is wrong for treating the palestinian people worse than animals, the palestinians have not handled it well either. It is a sad disgusting situation and a stain on God's Holy city.

^ That's good. Hopefully Al-Aqsa Mosque will be protected from harm as well. Welcome to the forum btw :cute:

thank you. Al-Aqsa mosque is safe as well, and it is very pretty, I only wish I would have been allowed to view the inside.

When Muslims say, "How on EARTH can you POSSIBLY believe that God became a MAN and WHY ON EARTH should He DIE for us on the CROSS?", I think they are having the normal reaction.

i have to agree with this :yes:
LOL , exactly my reaction. But i guess now at least i understand.

If you came up to me and asked me about God, I would usually think of God the Father. Otherwise, I would think of the Godhead, God in general in His Unity, God as the Divine Nature.

One way to think of it is imagine yourself writing a story. And one of the characters in the story is You.

God put Himself into His Story, the story of the World He created.

We know about the Character, but we also know about the Author.

So, I think most Christians, if you talk about God in general will think of the Author and not the Character, even though they are both God.

Jesus is God. But God is more than just Jesus.
aha i see.:hmm:
ok what about natural disasters or things in nature?? do they think that Jesus is controlling the universe?? is that why they say "mother nature" instead of God??Because the REAL god is Jesus?:os:think:
they think that Jesus is the one who controls everyone's heartbeat at this very moment? they think that Jesus is the one who helps the child to grow in the mother's womb?etc..:think:
trying to get a better understanding:shy:

there are two contemporary views of God in Christian theology, that of the pupeteer (which is more thought from the Middle Ages) and that of the clock maker. The pupeteer says that God controls things, but the more modern interpretation is that God is a clockmaker, he made the world and set it into motion and it runs by itself. God gave us the free will, to love or reject him, to do good or to do evil. Does that help clarify things?

The pupeteer says that God controls things, but the more modern interpretation is that God is a clockmaker, he made the world and set it into motion and it runs by itself. God gave us the free will, to love or reject him, to do good or to do evil. Does that help clarify things?

So the first is the same of our predestination [God knows everything but we don't know so we have a sort of limited free will]?

God knows everything, but we have complete free will:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/free_will.html

also, if we didnt have free will, but always did the bidding of God, wouldnt we never sin? We sin because we have free will and sometimes choose the wrong thing.

If you see sin as an absolute act then yes
But if you take it as part of a path, is different
Moreover without sin, the role of God is reduced to mere creator, no need to forgive, no need of hell
If you cut the sin part, you cut also the duality between right and wrong which is common to all religions

im confused as to what you mean. Dont you agree that we have free will as given by God?

Dont you agree that we have free will as given by God?
As Muslim I believe that everything has already being established by God, so in Islam we don't have free will [if I got it well, is the same concept of your God puppetteer] .
Personally I prefer to call it limited free will, cause many Muslims see the Qadar theory as a way to run life lazily .
We don't have free will but not knowing anything of our destiny, still is our duty to be active in life .

The question you ask is "why God allowed sinners" which is the 1 billion $ question every human being at least once in a life time asks
I think that religion itself is the solution to the struggle evil-good .
The theory of total free will, may appear more advanced cause the person has the choice for bad while in the predestination God plans on purpose the action of sin, but if you see things in perspective the Islamic view gives more sense to the redeeming role of God .

the only thing that God allowed us to have in freedom..is freedom of choice.

the only thing that God allowed us to have in freedom..is freedom of choice.

God has given freedom to choose in between good and evil.

^yes:yes: .................

amo:

Well, this points up what might be one of the differences between what Catholics and at least some Muslims believe.

If God did not give us a truly free will, then God is responsible for evil. He created a world in which sin and evil are a planned part and He is responsible for them.

As Christians understand it, God did not create evil in any sense of the word. Evil and sin are the result of a creaturely choice which God allows.

If God purposely created evil and purposely created beings who will be burned forever in Hell, rather than merely permitting such a choice which they determine, then God is a Devil.

We say God is Good and does not act contrary to His Own nature. Sin and evil have nothing to do with Him. A world without sin and evil was possible and that was His desire. It is still possible and that is His intent.

As long as He created the good, then is fine
Issue is why He created the evil rather than whether or not He is the evil : to tend to the good in my opinion, more precisely to the final good which is Himself
I think is more a philiosopical distinguo : Islamic view places the balance on His side, giving Him more power and responsibility
A God who knows everything but doesn't create "that" everything of what He knows, doesn't apparently make sense but fits into the doctrine of Jesus and the Trinity

Well, what makes "sense" or doesn't in the Christian undestanding is merely because of the limitations of our understanding of how things work OUTSIDE OF SPACE AND TIME.

It's not that our ideas "fit into the ideas" of the Trinity and Jesus. It's that Jesus and the Trinity make sense of out of what we know must be the case with God. I think you have it backwards.

I would say that our ideas are only seeming logical difficulties. Those exist in the physical universe as well. Our problems are just "How does it work?"

Your problem is not with HOW. Your problem is with WHAT. Can God be Evil and we just call it Good? That cannot be the case. Evil is evil; Good is good. God is good, not evil.

Your problem is with a moral truth, which is much more fundamental, I would say.

You start with seeming logical consistency. We start with moral consistency. God is good. Evil is wicked. They have nothing to do with one another.

limitations of our understanding of how things work OUTSIDE OF SPACE AND TIME.


That's for both religions
We can't fully understand everything
To cut it short the real problem is not WHO but WHY evil/sin is allowed
There must be a way to close the circle :
Islam [or better God, cause is stated in the Quran] does it giving to Allah the role of originator and end of everything, good and bad, leaving no space to human will
Christianity gives greater responsibility to human being but intervenes with theology

Can God be Evil and we just call it Good? That cannot be the case. Evil is evil; Good is good. God is good, not evil.

Being the creator doesn't necessarily means He is what He creates so He is good cause He creates it but He is not evil, just dominates it cause He is powerful enough to create it

Your problem is with a moral truth, which is much more fundamental, I would say.

You start with seeming logical consistency. We start with moral consistency. God is good. Evil is wicked. They have nothing to do with one another.


Good can't exist without evil .
God created Iblis [the devil] and gave him the chance to tempt us in every way .
Our logical consistency comes when we tend to God through our spirituality and morality .

You know, you are trying to find a way to square the circle backwards.

Good can't exist without the POTENTIALITY of evil.

We know that Evil exists. The only question is the intention of God. Does God INTEND evil? Or does He merely ALLOW evil? That's the only question.

INTENDING evil is evil. ALLOWING evil is good.

God doesn not create a person evil to go to Hell merely to serve some greater end. That itself is Evil.

Are humans merely tools God creates to serve a greater end of Goodness? Or is His Will and Intention for each individual Good?

We are not God's toys. If we are merely objects for Him to use and nothing more to Him, then God's mercy makes no sense and it makes no difference whether He is merciful or not. You cannot be merciful to a rock.

And I think this is what God's action in Christ says to us. God if Love. There is no evil in Him. His Love is Himself and so His Love is His Strength. That is how He conquers. He is strong enough to make autonomous beings whom He respects. Because He made them worthy of respect.

He more than respects. He LOVES us. It makes no sense for God to deliberately create things He hates. "Why do you hate me?" "I hate you because you are bad and I made you that way because you are useful to my plan. Now go burn in Hell."

No. God loves. He turns aside from Grand Chess Games and comes down into His own World to rescue those who had misused their freedom.

This is the Logic of the Cross. God so loved the world that He did THIS. He loved each individual so much that He did this for that individual. For you. For me.

Your view may be simple. But it ends in impossible, insoluble moral complications. And it ends with a view of God that destroys conscience.

If God can be Evil, then if we are evil in His Service, we are serving Him and thus okay. As long as He gives us permission.

So if we think that God commands us to to kill an innocent kid on purpose or to torture him for some greater good, then if we do so, we are merely following the path laid down for him.

In striving after simplicity, you have become so complicated that you are being contradictory in a far deeper way than any Christian. You don't need intelligence to solve this problem. You only need a moral clarity and a pure heart.

"In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you."

Luke 10: 21.

I know He loves me, but I dnt need to bypass His love through a human manifestation
Again I think He created evil but He is not evil, cause I don't have this vision of a God who is always manifestation of Himself in different ways
Evil is evil cause good is there

So God did not create sin because sin is evil?
But that makes God helpless against sin OR evil which doesn't make sense :os

I dnt think I said that :os
but is getting too difficult, am out of this :D

I know He loves me, but I dnt need to bypass His love through a human manifestation
Again I think He created evil but He is not evil, cause I don't have this vision of a God who is always manifestation of Himself in different ways
Evil is evil cause good is there

I think if God loves you but he made you evil in any way, then God is responsible for your evil. He chose to make you evil.

That means that God is evil.

As far as good only being able to exist if there is evil, it makes no sense in the end. God is good. He doesn't need evil in order to be Good.

I think what you are missing again is the distinction between potential evil and directly intended evil.

So God did not create sin because sin is evil?
But that makes God helpless against sin OR evil which doesn't make sense :os

I don't think so. And let me stress that I don't believe that Amo's view about free will is necessarily the view of all Muslims. I don't feel I am arguing against Islam, but just against the view that amo has taken.

I think the view you are taking of helplessness and strength is--paradoxically--too HUMAN. A funny thing to say about one Muslim's idea about God, but true nevertheless.

God is great enough and strong enough to be generous. Strength is not just a matter of command. Love is stronger than command.

God is great enough to create beings that can defy Him. Is that weakness?

Maybe you could say so. But is God small enough and petty enough to create beings ON PURPOSE that do something and then say He does not like that something and then punish them for it?

It seems to me that that is a different kind of weakness entirely and a deeper weakness. It's foolishness and wickedness. It's the strength of a tyrannical king, like kings on earth who "rule over all" and treat their subjects like garbage and crush everyone under their heel.

If ALLOWING true freedom and ALLOWING His will to defied is weakness, it is only apparent weakness. In reality, it is great strength.

It is the generosity and love of creating things that have a center and a self of their own and are not puppets. To create beings that have freedom and autonomy and that therefore are worthy not only to be loved but to love in return.

This is strength of a different order. It's the kind of strength that a loving and merciful Father shows toward His children. It is allowing His Will to be contravened and bringing a greater good out of it.

It is the the strength of Magic. The strength that defeats without crushing, by pulling from the inside and raising things to a different level.

But again, how much of this is Christianity vs. Islam and how much is Catholic teaching versus amo or versus one interpretation of Islam, I don't know. I know that amo says there is no free will. But when I check "free will Islam" on Google, I find lots of Muslim websites that say Muslims believe in free will.

So there may be room for opinion.

But anyway, whereever you come out in this discussion, I think you can see the meaning of Jesus, the God Whom becomes Man, for Christians and how He fits into things better. That's at least related to Angel Eyes' original question. And it also sheds some light on your questions in the other thread.

It's part of why we need SAVING and REDEEMING, not just a proclamation of forgiveness.

He doesn't need evil in order to be Good

Definitely so
But we do need cause we are humans

I don't believe that Amo's view about free will is necessarily the view of all Muslims

For the record : Qadar [predestination] is not my personal view
Is one of the 6 articles of faith
The following discussion between me and Tuff about God, is my personal interpretation of differences between Christianity and Islam

Definitely so
But we do need cause we are humans



For the record : Qadar [predestination] is not my personal view
Is one of the 6 articles of faith
The following discussion between me and Tuff about God, is my personal interpretation of differences between Christianity and Islam

Well, but you said there is no good without evil. That sounds like a point about the nature of goodness. It can't exist without contrast.

If that is really TRUE, then it has to be true about Goodness period. If it can exist without contrast in God, there is no reason it can't exist without goodness in humans.

If God can be good, then why can't he make us all good?

As far as Qadar is concerned, well, I don't know. Perhaps there are different interpretations of what it means. What I DO know is that conservative Islamic fatwa sites say man has free will.

Who is right? How does it fit together? Is there more than one interpretation? I don't know. But I'm glad to listen and learn.

I think Jeff maybe we can agree on the following points:
1) Sin is in itself part-purification and part-test.
2) Why not look at this view: God creates sin + Satan to test those who will follow Him and reject sin and those who would embrace sin and reject Him. In Islam we believe that if Allah wanted, He would have created the whole world Muslim...And it would not have added or taken from His might.
3) In Islam the first sin was really the basic human weakness, envy. The first sin was not yielding into temptation by Satan being JEALOUS of Adam for Adam to be favored on him. Satan thinks Adam is too weak and too futile to be better than him and he says to Allah (what means): 'You created me from fire and him from mud. What is BETTER?'

And the one thing I think we are not likely to agree on...
Allah would not create that which can DEFY Him since NOTHING can defy Him.
It is simply losing another Godly property...If anything can DEFY God than that should be worshipped instead of God.

But free will implies that you can choose freely (not commanded by God) to do that which God forbids.

You know I THINK there might be room in Islam for this idea too.

I looked up "Predestination in Islam" in the Wikipedia. The discussion there seems to indicate that Qadr is really an aspect of FOREKNOWLEDGE, rather than Divine Intentionality. "Fate" thus would be simply that God knows how you will choose, though He does not INTEND it.

We are talking about God's Omniscience not His Omnipotence when this question arises.

THAT is difficult to understand or render comprehensible because of cause and effect problems. But as long as you keep to it, you avoid being a position where Satan's response to God can rightly be: "You put those words in my mouth. No point in blaming me. If what I say is evil, it's because you made me say it."

Why not simply say: No one can DEFY God in the sense that no one can do that which God has not ALLOWED? Call that Defy with a capital 'D'.

But if you program a computer to bonk you on the head and then when the computer bonks you on the head you say: I shall smite thee, evil Computer! and then smash it, it's hard to see any morality or even sense in the situation. Are you glorious if you do that? Does it demonstrate your power?

I think you are rightly concerned with preserving the Omnipotence of God and His Dignity. But you might reflect that with free will, man still can't--nor can Satan--ULTIMATELY defy God.

God's Power and Glory are shown in that the persistent evildoer renders himself fit for nothing but Hell. He seals His own fate and his defiance ends up working against him. As St. Paul says in the Bible, "God is not mocked."

Well, think about those two senses of "defy" and see if they might do the trick. And maybe look at the Wikipedia article.

I don't want to push anyone into a corner. If you are stuck you are stuck. And if you are unalterably convinced, well then you are unalterably convinced. But there might be more room for discussion than what amo and you have presented so far seems to indicate.

Not a problem that needs to be solved overnight anyway! At least you can see why we think the way we do and it can help illuminate the part that Jesus, God made Man, plays in the process in Christian understanding.

If God can be good, then why can't he make us all good?
For the same reason for which He made you born with the original sin
Is He a bad God , so bad that there was the need to put aside the Old Testament from the official scriptures ?
I don't think so, just our intellect is limited to give an answer to everything
I understand your point : allowing is not generating on purpose
But if our vision is that of a cruel God, then yours is that of a lesser God [no offence, just an expression to give the idea] or still of a puppeteer cause He gives will to do evil to come with Jesus
But at this point we're still on man made theories part of a theology and not of texts

this is still going ?:shy:

If God did not give us a truly free will, then God is responsible for evil.


Jeff,
Certain things is with Allah(swt).
As we believe, rest Allah has given us conscious to choose good and bad.

Jeff, regarding that Satan's answer part which I found most interesting...
It goes back to what I sorta said...I still think we believe it but in different ways...Well, kinda I guess. God knows everything. God created everything and therefore God knows the nature and capabilities of everything. He is able to do everything and He is defied by nothing...It is not 'keeping God's dignity' it is simply saying that He is God. How can you worship that which creates its own rival? This is how the example of the computer puts it...If I create a computer that can bonk my head, I'm in a way the equivalent of the computer. And we can never be equivalents of God.

God KNOWS what you will do but why does He put you through it? Though asking questions of 'Why God does so...' sounds pretty much off-limits but I think the answer is that it can only do you more good...And that it will always lead you back, to His path.
And finally, if I'm stuck in a corner, I'll tell you ;)