Since there was some concern of going off topic in the other thread.. I thought I'd open a new one about the topic that started being discussed.

I read this by Jeff.. and I loved every word.

Imagine you betrayed your King. And you became a bad person inside, full of hate and fear. And you travelled to another Kingdom.

There the Evil King of your new Kingdom put you in prison. He had power over you because you submitted yourself to him. You were in despair because you could not escape. Your soul was full of poison. And you hated your old King and resented him because you wanted to be King yourself and He had refused it to you. But you also hated your new life and wanted to be delivered from it somehow.

One day, you old King comes to visit you in prison. "El Rey", He says. "I remember all you did to me. I know you hate me and you cannot change yourself. And I know you cannot escape your New Evil King. You have given him power over you and it has poisoned you. I cannot cancel what you have done because I gave you freedom to make of yourself what you wished. And this is what you have done with my gift."

"But I love you and I want to deliver you. I cannot cancel out your punishment. You deserve your punishment and it has become a disease of your deepest soul. You have given the Evil King power over you."

"But I will give myself to the Evil King in your place. Let Him do whatever He likes with Me. Then the Evil King must let you go."

So, your King submits Himself to the Evil New King. And the Evil New King is delighted with the exchange! He tortures and kills your old King in your place while you watch.

And that fills your soul with Love and gives you the power to Love in return. Your heart and soul are changed forever. You are free. You are cured.

And then your old King returns to your cell and opens the door. "You are delivered. Come into my Home and share it with me Forever."

"But you were dead!", you say. "I saw them kill you!"

"Indeed they did. But I am the True King and Death and Sin have no power over me. But when I submitted myself to them, even though they were strangers to me, I destroyed them for you forever. I have introduced my Life and Love into your poisoned soul. And as long as you keep me before you and keep me close to you, you will never die. You will still suffer as a result of what you did to yourself. But instead of poisoning you, your sufferings will cure you, if you only remember me. And even when you don't see me, you will know that I am with you in every suffering, bearing it also. Because that is Who I Am."Seeing that el ray had some questions, maybe this is a better place to ask.

Wow, that's really beautifully put.

Good job Jeff.

Indeed Jeff it is very beautiful. Thank you so very very much.

And it was a lot of work!

Thanks for rescuing it Thalia, I thought it might disappear! :p

But let me make it clear: I only gave this as an answer to El Rey's question, Why did God have to die on the Cross.

I don't want to initiate threads on which I "preach" Christian teaching here. This is a Muslim place and I want to respect that.

So I will not attack Mohammed or the Quran and I won't preach Christianity.

But if I am asked a question about Christianity by a Muslim, I will respond by trying to explain.

Anyway, you can see from the response of Thalia and Wudjab (thank you for your kindness!) that I am putting into words what they feel as Christians.

It's not just my idea. It's what is in the heart of our religion.

Indeed Jeff it is very beautiful. Thank you so very very much.

Thank you. And thanks for being my sister in Christ.

It's very funny, but I only just now noticed that "El Rey" means "the King" :p

I just think you explained the concept of the Trinity in a way a non-Christian who is not filled with hate or prejudice should try and understand at least seeing how we Christians believe. I don't expect El Rey or anyone here who is non-Christian to accept but to use their intellect God gave us to see how we Christians view Jesus and the Trinity.

And it was a lot of work!

Thanks for rescuing it Thalia, I thought it might disappear! :p

But let me make it clear: I only gave this as an answer to El Rey's question, Why did God have to die on the Cross.

I don't want to initiate threads on which I "preach" Christian teaching here. This is a Muslim place and I want to respect that.

So I will not attack Mohammed or the Quran and I won't preach Christianity.

But if I am asked a question about Christianity by a Muslim, I will respond by trying to explain.

Anyway, you can see from the response of Thalia and Wudjab (thank you for your kindness!) that I am putting into words what they feel as Christians.

It's not just my idea. It's what is in the heart of our religion.
I didn't open this thread as a preaching thread. But since el ray was asking questions that I would also like to read the replies for, and you were staying back to respect not going off topic, I thought I'd open a thread so you two can do just that.

I of course will sit in the sidelines reading..

The questions are interesting to me, and so are the answers ..

Oh, I wasn't criticizing your intentions. I appreciate them and you for posting this..

I was just explaining My Sabla Approach and my own peculiar reasons for it.

I hope that people will start posting here instead of on the Bible thread....

I just think you explained the concept of the Trinity in a way a non-Christian who is not filled with hate or prejudice should try and understand at least seeing how we Christians believe. I don't expect El Rey or anyone here who is non-Christian to accept but to use their intellect God gave us to see how we Christians view Jesus and the Trinity.

Well, that's my intention.

People can say: "I understand, but I disagree."

That's even the best way to begin if you want to change somebody's mind.

If I were a Muslim trying to communicate with a Christian, the first thing I would do is try to understand.

But hate and prejudice? I'm not sure I agree.

Christianity often just seems weird and bizarre--and even sickening--to non-Christians. And especially to Muslims, who learn their own interpetation of it early on.

Remember what the Bible says about how Christianity can look from outside:

"We preach Christ Crucified. To the Jews a total outrage and to the non-Jews ridiculous foolishness. But to those who are called, Jews and non-Jews alike, Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God."

So, I prefer to be patient. I am so glad they want to talk about it! I will gratefully pay the price of sharp questions. They are convinced they are right and we are nuts. So, let them ask! :)

a Very beautiful way to put it Jeff..
But I got a question, the Good king is Jesus as I understand it, who does the Evil King represent?

^^

Excellent question! I was wondering who would ask it, but I should have guessed it would be Braiki.

In a small way, the Evil King represents Satan. In a larger way, the Evil King represents the Bondage of Sin and Death. And also, the Enslavement to Self, which both causes and is caused by that bondage.

To relate the two, that is why the Bible refers to Satan as:

"The Prince of this world."

Thanx Thalia and itz El Rey not ray lol .. anyway regarding what you posted from jeff's interesting story i posted some questions here:


now regarding what you said and the first highlighted line. if God died so the sins will lose its pwer over mankind then we won't see anyone committing sins till this time otherwise God failed in his intention ( as you already mentioned ).


the story you brought there is so interesting but if God suffers to save the man and clean him from sins then this means he's weak, and we all know that Almighty God is waaay and way from weakness.

and also this means that there is no purpose for hell too since God created it for the sinners and disbelievers

Once I saw a program on the the TV, a Christian man nailed himself (I mean by other people) on a cross and was full of blood then he walked in the street pulling chains.

Why he is doing that?

Thanx Thalia and itz El Rey not ray lol .. anyway regarding what you posted from jeff's interesting story i posted some questions here:


now regarding what you said and the first highlighted line. if God died so the sins will lose its pwer over mankind then we won't see anyone committing sins till this time otherwise God failed in his intention ( as you already mentioned ).


the story you brought there is so interesting but if God suffers to save the man and clean him from sins then this means he's weak, and we all know that Almighty God is waaay and way from weakness.

and also this means that there is no purpose for hell too since God created it for the sinners and disbelievers


God is not weak. He is all-powerful.

But He submitted to limitations in this World so that His Power could triumph even through Weakness. "Allowing things to happen" can be the greatest sign of strength, especially if you know that they will produce a result that is many times greater than resisting.

Jesus said, "No one takes my life from me. I have power to lay it down. And I have power to take it up again.

St. Paul says that Christ on the Cross is the Power of God. How can weakness be the Power of God? Because it is precisely through letting Sin exercise ALL ITS POWER over Him that He defeats it. "Death could not hold Him."

St. Maximus the Confessor says that Christ is DRAGON BAIT. He delivers Himself over to the Devil and the Devil cannot resist swallowing Him. But He cannot digest Him! Instead, He kills the Dragon.

God triumphs over Sin and Death and Weakness from INSIDE. That shows His Great Power and Glory, which is far beyond Human Power and Glory.

Hell is for those who do not follow the Deliverer out of the House of Bondage. Because as long as we sin, even a little, Hell is our natural home.

Without Christ, we ALL go to Hell. Because the prison I spoke of is this world we live in and our state of sin, which we all share.

Once I saw a program on the the TV, a Christian man nailed himself (I mean by other people) on a cross and was full of blood then he walked in the street pulling chains.

Why he is doing that?

Without Christ, the sufferings of the world are punishment ONLY. But WITH Christ, their meaning is transformed.

They become spiritually attached to the delivering power of His Death and Resurrection and they help spread its power to redeem the world.

Some people in their enthusiasm take this too far. We are not supposed to torture ourselves and risk death. Nor are we supposed to literally be crucified, unless someone does it to us. There is a Chinese priest at my parish whose uncle was arrested and crucified to death by the Communists many years ago, so that still happens.

But, "take up your cross and follow Me," says Our Lord. We bear the "crosses" we are given in this life and try to do so with joy and prayer, offering them to God united to the sufferings of His Son.

so Jesus is a God and he created the mankind and sent prophets then He came to earth to cleanse the mankinds' sins then went up and He said that another prophet will come which is Mohammed PBUH ( as you said that it's somehow there in the Bible ) ..


is this right ?

Ha, ha!

No, I didn't say anything about Mohammed in the Bible. And I don't believe he is there.

And Jesus is not A God. Jesus is God. Allah.

Without Christ, the sufferings of the world are punishment ONLY. But WITH Christ, their meaning is transformed.

They become spiritually attached to the delivering power of His Death and Resurrection and they help spread its power to redeem the world.

Some people in their enthusiasm take this too far. We are not supposed to torture ourselves and risk death. Nor are we supposed to literally be crucified, unless someone does it to us. There is a Chinese priest at my parish whose uncle was arrested and crucified to death by the Communists many years ago, so that still happens.

But, "take up your cross and follow Me," says Our Lord. We bear the "crosses" we are given in this life and try to do so with joy and prayer, offering them to God united to the sufferings of His Son.

What do you mean by transformed?

So if someone did it to a Christian it's ok?

What does the Bible says about suicide?

I think it's time to quote Tea over here :

And then take lessons in arabic grammer which will take you few years to understand.

Replaing Arabic with English and of course including the fundamentals of English as well.

wudjab, are you english fundamentalist?

No, you are not allowed to kill yourself or damage yourself!

No, it's not okay if someone kills or harms a Christian. All suffering inflicted on people is against the Will of God. But He allows them to do it.

But God is powerful enough to take Evil and use it for Good.

Evil and Disobedience do not defeat Him. They only make His Power and Glory more manifest in the end.

If God allows me to become sick, and I suffer, I can join my sickness to God and offer it united to Christ's suffering on the Cross. The power of Christ's suffering, which I described above, comes alive in us then in a spiritual way and God can use it for good in us and for good in others.

So, it helps to transform the world.

Ha, ha!

No, I didn't say anything about Mohammed in the Bible. And I don't believe he is there.

And Jesus is not A God. Jesus is God. Allah.

But you believe that he sent Mozes, David, Joseph and all other prophets right ?

but if He's really a God, why didn't he just came in ? why did he need to go in Mary womb and start like a fetus and stay there for nine months when he could just come in in an instant


p.s: am using a God coz i still don't believe he's but a prophet like others

But you believe that he sent Mozes, David, Joseph and all other prophets right ?

but if He's really a God, why didn't he just came in ? why did he need to go in Mary womb and start like a fetus and stay there for nine months when he could just come in in an instant


p.s: am using a God coz i still don't believe he's but a prophet like others

Because He the whole point of His coming was to share our lives with us. To become the New Man, the Perfect Man from conception to Death on the Cross.

Again, this is changing us from INSIDE, using the DISEASE to make the cure.

We usually don't count David and Joseph as prophets, but I believe that God sent the Prophets, including Moses, to effect change. That was one stage in His plan.

But that change was only effected over time. Israel and the World needed to be prepared for the coming of Christ.

God works in stages sometimes, not just in history but in our lives. Even Muslims say that God revealed the Quran to us. But He didn't do that in the beginning. The Imperfect has to prepare the way for the Perfect.

This gives me a lot of insight on the Christian view of things...
Keep posting everybody!

I've always wondered about the Christian position from Mary PBUH (Maryam)...Does Christianity honor her as much as they honor Jesus? And does anybody have a clue why God (as Christian theology implies) would take her and her only out of all people as a mother? Is there any documentation in Christianity that talks of the 'birth' of Jesus?

For those interested here is a link that discussed what Jesus means to Catholics:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm

To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities". Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.

The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men". But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]",454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps." In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.

Threadlike:

Well, Catholics and other traditional Christians honor her more than any other Creature. She is God's Masterpiece. And the Mother of God.

Jesus of course is Infinitely Above her, since He is the Creator Himself.

Why Mary? Well, one way to look at it is that the whole history of Israel, all that purification and suffering and misery, was just to produce that one good, a woman who would be fit and worthy to be the Mother of her own Creator.

Mary is the New Eve. In Medieval Europe, there was a Christmas carol that went, "Nova, Nova! Ave fit ex Eva!"

When Gabriel came to tell Mary that she would be Christ's mother, he began by saying "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." "Hail" in Latin is "Ave."

"Eve" in Latin is "Eva."

Eve, our first mother, said No! to God and Mankind sank into the ruin of Sin and Death.

But Mary, when the Angel said, "You are going to conceive a child even though you are umarried" said, "Let it be done to me according to your word."

Where Eve said No, and brought in Death, Mary said Yes, and brought in Life Himself.

So Eva is turned into Ave; Mary's Yes replaces Eve's No.

And since we are all Members of Christ's Body, and she is His Mother, she is our Mother too and loves us with the tender love of a Mother.

"All generations shall call me Blessed", she said. And we call her, the Blessed Mother.

The Infancy Narratives are contained at the beginning of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. John and Mark do not discuss Christ's infancy.

I believe that Mary is also descended from important people in the bible but that tie was lost through the years....I know Jeff can find this. I am at work and falling behind on my workoad since this discussion has consumed me pretty much all day. Will tune in later.

very interesting jeff ana marianna,

“And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.”
-1 Corinthians 15:14-19 (NKJV)


if Jesus is God then He should say God raised up himself . so ?

“And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”
—1 John 5:11-12 NKJV


who was ment by the son of God here ? isn't Jesus ? and if yes how can he be a God and the Son of God.

excuse my ignorance but am interested to know

He is God and son of God. Because we humans have limited knowledge in regards to such issues, and I think esp. so back then...the acts of God through Jesus were made into more simple terms. Think about how the culture was back then, science was not like it is now, nor were there all these prestigious universities, schools etc...people were well, pretty simple in the way they lived and God chose to bring himself down in the form of Man to save the sins of the world, to acknowledge his love for us....

As a Catholic I recite this prayer every Mass and it reaffirms my beliefs:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

Sure, it is true to say that Son raised Himself and that the Father, from Whom all Divinity flows, raised Him as well. The Son does nothing without the Father. But since the Son is God of God, what He does, He does of His own Power also.

Remember the Trinity discussion? God's Thought of Himself is also God. We call God the Thinker, The Father. We call God, the Thought of Himself, The Son. We call God, the Power of Love and Joy Exchanged between Thinker and Thought, the Holy Spirit.

But since the Origin of Divinity is the Father and the Son comes from the Father, we often just call the Father, "God."

And Jesus says, "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Bible says He was speaking of the Temple of His Body.

And as I said, He also said, "No one takes My Life from Me. I have the Power to Lay it down and the Power to take it up."

Christ is Son of God and Son of Man. In fact, He loves to call Himself, Son of Man. Son of Man is Man by nature. Son of God is God by nature. Jesus is both True Man and True God.

It is true that the Son raised Himself. It is also true that the Son does everything through the Power of the Father and so God, the Father, raised Him. They have perfect Unity.

Jesus can call the Father, "My God" as well as "My Father" because as a human being, He is modelling worship for us. But even in the Mystery of the Godhead itself, the Eternal Son acknowledges the Father as the source of all He Is.

But "I and the Father are One. Anyone who sees Me sees the Father."

He is God and son of God. Because we humans have limited knowledge in regards to such issues, and I think esp. so back then...the acts of God through Jesus were made into more simple terms. Think about how the culture was back then, science was not like it is now, nor were there all these prestigious universities, schools etc...people were well, pretty simple in the way they lived and God chose to bring himself down in the form of Man to save the sins of the world, to acknowledge his love for us....

As a Catholic I recite this prayer every Mass and it reaffirms my beliefs:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.


Nice job! :)

I didn't see it before I posted mine, but I especially like the point about "simple language."

Remember that we are speaking of the Mystery of God's Own Private Life. It's like an ant trying to understand Mathematics. Our minds can only dimly and vaguely understand what we are talking about.

But it's no surprise that God is Mysterious! The surprise would be if He were simple and easy to understand and there were nothing surprising at all.

By the way, that prayer Marianna is talking about is called "The Apostles' Creed."

He is God and son of God.

As a Catholic I recite this prayer every Mass and it reaffirms my beliefs:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

.

in your prayer it seems that God and Jesus are different not the same.
i just want an explanation of how can it be a God and his Son at the same time, logically

and in the time of Jesus, wasn't he praying ?

Yes but he is also our Lord and God...I think if you don't want to try and understand how we see God and how Jesus and God are the same because well...God can be anything and do anything then all we will do is run around in circles. There are plenty of priests in Oman if you are there if not then wherever you live if you really truly want to learn more about Christianity then by all means contact a priest or even a reverand and explain your questions and as long as you do so in a respectable manner (not in mockery) am sure they will help you out.

Thanx jeff and marianna, i'll be pursuing my inquiry later on i just need a break right now lol, and am appreciating your efforts to make things clear :)

No problem. When I was studying Islam I always had questions. I think it is just how you pose them and having an earnest interest, not to convert but to learn about others different from yourself means you open your heart and mind to individuals who well believe differently...doesn't mean you will change your faith. I am not a person who is out to do that. But I am a person who is always wanting to learn from others and I realize that the best we have to give is respect and a willingness to learn from each other.

in your prayer it seems that God and Jesus are different not the same.
i just want an explanation of how can it be a God and his Son at the same time, logically


According to many Christians I know, it is called the holy mystery, it will never be logical. you must have faith to believe it. HOW it works, nobody will be able to answer you no matter how hard the explanation is.

Its similar to asking a muslim how did all things start? Isn't it logical to have a start point for everything?
But God doesn't fall under that, and no matter how hard a muslim would try to explain to you, it will never be logical

It is simply "dogma"

He is God and son of God.

If son of God got married, what will be the kids Gods or human beings?


As a Catholic I recite this prayer every Mass and it reaffirms my beliefs:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

Why God will send his son to hell?

If son of God got married, what will be the kids Gods or human beings?



Why God will send his son to hell?

I remember that question from before! :p

Jesus' body is a human body because He has a Human Nature. His physical nature is physical, it's not half-physical and half-divine. His hands were 100% human and everything else in His body is 100% human, including His generating capacity.

There is no record of Jesus' being married or having children except a 20th century novel. The entire tradition of the Church is that Jesus followed His own advice to remain a virgin, since He came to die, not to start a breed of Supermen! :p

But as a technical question: IF. IF Jesus' human body had generated children, they would have been human children.

***

The Hell referred to in the Apostles' Creed is not the Hell of the Damned. It's an old fashioned English word from centuries ago. Modern translations say, "He descended to the dead."

The Bible says that he visited "the spirits in bondage" and our Fathers and their tafsir have always explained that to mean that the souls of the righteous dead were waiting for deliverance from their intermediary state.

This is what "He descended into Hell" means.

But as a technical question: IF. IF Jesus' human body had generated children, they would have been human children.

How would you know that, and why they would be human beings. I thought you believe Jesus is God?


The Hell referred to in the Apostles' Creed is not the Hell of the Damned. It's an old fashioned English word from centuries ago. Modern translations say, "He descended to the dead."

The Bible says that he visited "the spirits in bondage" and our Fathers and their tafsir have always explained that to mean that the souls of the righteous dead were waiting for deliverance from their intermediary state.

This is what "He descended into Hell" means.


That proves the many versions of the Bible, sometimes it says descended to the dead and sometimes into Hell? Hell and dead are two different things.

i've been searching and i found this interesting article regarding this thread ( which says that Jesus is not a God ) with evidence from the Bible

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/10_reasons_jesus_not_god.htm


i wanted to discuss it one by one but i felt it's much better to share the whole article and you can reply to each point seperately ..

and let's start with this one:

1- Jesus is not all knowing:





Mark 24: 32-36:





32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only



God is all-knowing, Jesus fails this main qualification. This alone is enough to prove that Jesus is not God. Also note the verse says ONLY the Father meaning nobody else, including the divine Jesus.

i've been searching and i found this interesting article regarding this thread ( which says that Jesus is not a God ) with evidence from the Bible

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/10_reasons_jesus_not_god.htm


i wanted to discuss it one by one but i felt it's much better to share the whole article and you can reply to each point seperately ..

and let's start with this one:
I think one must first start looking for answers at good reputable sites.

Answeringchristianity is as 'good' and 'reputable' as answeringislam.

Have you seen the one about islam? If no, I suggest you do. If yes, you should understand how such sites work. :)

I have a small suggestion as a little man.

First you decide, which version of the Holy Bible all the Christian will accept without controversy.

I think one must first start looking for answers at good reputable sites.

Answeringchristianity is as 'good' and 'reputable' as answeringislam.

Have you seen the one about islam? If no, I suggest you do. If yes, you should understand how such sites work. :)

it's not the site Thalia, it's the subject in there
i took a look at it and compared it with what we have in the Holy Quran as a Muslim and my lack of knowledge about Christianity and it made sence to me.. However i agree that some sites are only made to deform other religions.

I was deeply shocked and was feeling bad embarrassed from the last evening.
It was like a shockwave to me and bed was uncomfortable to me.
I was reading The Qur’an and was looking different chapters.
Suddenly a question clicked in my mind, “Who Jesus (Pbuh) is in the lives of Muslim.?

I know that the Christian (perhaps majority) believe that God incarnated as Jesus.

The House of Islam acknowledges that Jesus Christ, the son of Mary was one of the mightiest of Messengers of God. It acknowledges that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention; that he was the Messiah; that he gave life to the dead, by God's permission; and that he healed the blind and the lepers, by God's permission –

The Holy Qur;’an has given a vivid description about and how this miraculous birth took pace.
I am quoting the relevant aya bellow but wish to know , how the Christian describe his miraculous birth in The Holy Bible with context and reference.
You can pick the copy of the Holy qur’an any translation or hard copy . You can verify my quote.

I am in a dilemma with The Holy Bible, Out of the encyclopaedia of 73 Books of the Roman Catholics and 66 Books of the Protestants called the "BIBLE",
So quote your statement with reference for crosscheck.

Sūrah Maryam

19:16. And mention, [O Muúammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
17. And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
18. She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allāh."
19. He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."

Next.

20. She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
Reply came:

21. He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "
22. So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."
24. But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.
25. And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.
26. So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "
27. Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.
28. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
29. So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
30. [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allāh. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
31. And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakāh as long as I remain alive
32. And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.
33. And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."
34. That is Jesus, the son of Mary – the word of truth about which they are in dispute.
Look bellow:

35. It is not [befitting] for Allāh to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.


I confidently hope my Christian friend will narrate the history of birth of their Lord Jesus from Bible?

[171] O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Shamsery.. when you say "24. But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream."

Who is 'he'?

[171] O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
lol.. you remind me of an exorcist. Jumping into the room every so often to cast out the evil demons..

It's a thread about what Jesus is to US, not to YOU. We already know what he is to you. Thankyouverymuch.

Shamsery.. when you say "24. But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream."

Who is 'he'?

Some say angel Jebreal and some say Prophet Issa pbuh himself.

Allah knows best.

Another verse about the miracle of Prophet Issa birth:

And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imrân who guarded her chastity. And We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Rûh (i.e. Jibrîl (Gabriel)) and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord (i.e. believed in the Words of Allâh: "Be!" - and he was; that is 'Îesa (Jesus) - son of Maryam (Mary) as a Messenger of Allâh), and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitûn (i.e. obedient to Allâh).

Some say angel Jebreal and some say Prophet Issa pbuh himself.

Allah knows best.
What was Angel Gabriel doing 'below her'?

And wasn't she pregnant still? Or did Jesus talk from inside her belly?

Shamsery.. when you say "24. But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream."

Who is 'he'?

Is the verse not clear?

Anyway,
I describe the Islamic view point of Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) birth and asked to describe Christian conception on his birth.

I am wish to know what The Bible or NT says about his miraculous birth or there is nothing.
Come back to the main point , otherwise sword of the Damocles is going to fall down on the neck of the thread.

What was Angel Gabriel doing 'below her'?

And wasn't she pregnant still? Or did Jesus talk from inside her belly?

Such details are a matter of unknown ('3ayb).

The issue here is the miraculous birth of Prophet Issa, what does the Bible say about it and is it described in great details as stated in the Quran?

There is a complete chapter called Mary in the Quran, is there one in the Bibel?

What was Angel Gabriel doing 'below her'?

And wasn't she pregnant still? Or did Jesus talk from inside her belly?

Is the comment respectful to Mother Merry?

Please read verse 17 & 19.
Now use your intellect.

Is the comment respectful to Mother Merry?

Please read verse 17 & 19.
Now use your intellect.
EXCUSE ME?!

It says he spoke from "below her" .. and I am quoting your post here.

Icetea said it could be Angel Gabriel..

How would that make sense when it says "from below her"?

Interestingly how you took my comment literally. :rolleyes:

No, I'm not asking what ACT he was doing under her. The question means: It doesn't make sense for it to refer to Gabriel when it says "from below her" .. I doubt Gabriel WAS below her, so it obviously is referring to something else unless you can explain that."

Have another go.

Oh and it's Mary.. not Merry.

Shamsery.. when you say "24. But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream."

Who is 'he'?

Your reply is in other post.
I brought Sūrah Maryam to show how Islam Believe and respect about the miraculous birth of Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) and virgin mother Mary.
This is Islamic perception not for debate.

Tell us what is narrated in the Holy Bible.
Is there any description?

Is the verse not clear?

Anyway,
I describe the Islamic view point of Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) birth and asked to describe Christian conception on his birth.

I am wish to know what The Bible or NT says about his miraculous birth or there is nothing.
Come back to the main point , otherwise sword of the Damocles is going to fall down on the neck of the thread.
Ok. So you can't explain who spoke to Mary here... right.

Your reply is in other post.
I brought Sūrah Maryam to show how Islam Believe and respect about the miraculous birth of Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) and virgin mother Mary.
This is Islamic perception not for debate.

Tell us what is narrated in the Holy Bible.
Is there any description?
yes, and I'm trying to understand that Islamic perception.

Thanks for not helping.

Ok. So you can't explain who spoke to Mary here... right.


If you believe in miraculous birth ( with out male intervention , though many modern Christian contradict with it) of a Prophet , can’t you think a prophet can do miracle by the order of his creator?
Please read,
29. So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
30. [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allāh. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

Do you deny the fact?


The verse is well self-explanatory.

If you believe in miraculous birth ( with out male intervention , though many modern Christian contradict with it) of a Prophet , can’t you think a prophet can do miracle by the order of his creator?
Please read,
29. So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
30. [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allāh. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

Do you deny the fact?


The verse is well self-explanatory.
You mean Jesus said that .. from the cradle?


nb. Afaik, no Christians dispute the fact that Jesus had no (human) father. No male intervention.

Thalia, the tafseer of the verse (from Tafisr Al Jalalyn) that you asked about is as follows:
Then he called her from below her,namely, Gabriel — for he was lower than her, ‘Do not grieve. Your Lord has made below you a rivulet, a river of water, which had dried up.
What is hard to understand about Gabriel being below the Virgin Mary? Angels were created from Light as Allah SWT tells us in the Qura'n. Gabriel showed up to the prophet PBUH and his companions as a man...Their nature is a little above our level of understanding.

By the way this tafseer is from a brilliant website called www.altafisr.com.
It can help a lot in discussions of Islam as it will provide tafsir (interpretation) of the Qura'n from different books + asbab al nizool (the reasons of delivry).
And yes, Jesus spoke from the cradle...It was one of his many miracles.

Respected Thalia,
If you go through the translation of the same verse by Pickthall or Yusuf Ali , you find some other word has been used.
Arabic is very rich language; same word carries the different meaning in different situation.
I wish to show you how we think about him, One cannot be a Muslim without believing Prophet Jesus(pbuh) one of the mighty messenger of Allah (swt).

nb. Afaik, no Christians dispute the fact that Jesus had no (human) father. No male intervention.

Also Adam had no human father & mother.

In fact the creation of Adam and Jesus is the same.

nb. Afaik, no Christians dispute the fact that Jesus had no (human) father. No male intervention.

Well, I have narrated what Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) to in our live.

Last word is No Muslim is a Muslim who don’t believe him as a prophet, in his miraculous birth, miracle done by Jesus by the order of Allah, such as he male alive a dead person, eye to the blind etc.,

Please look to other translation of verse you mentioned earlier:

24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; (Yosuf Ali)
24. Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee, ( Pikhtal)


Most interesting, we have described the birth history of Jesus (pbuh) from Islamic point of view.

What is there in your scripture (Bible) about the birth history Your “Jesus god” or no description is available with Bible?
Enlighten us please?

Based on my readings, the first quote recorded of Jesus in a young age is the following:

41
12 Each year his parents went to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover,
42
and when he was twelve years old, they went up according to festival custom.
43
After they had completed its days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, but his parents did not know it.
44
Thinking that he was in the caravan, they journeyed for a day and looked for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
45
but not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem to look for him.
46
After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions,
47
and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers.
48
When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety."
49
And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" 13
50
But they did not understand what he said to them.
51
He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
52
And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man.

Luke 2:41-52

Based on my readings, the first quote recorded of Jesus in a young age is the following:

Luke 2:41-52

Thank you , go ahead or thats all.

what? didn't get you

what? didn't get you

Each year his parents went to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover,
and when he was twelve years old, they went up according to festival custom.

Well understood.
From child hood he used to accompany and at age of 12 he went, may be alone, may be accompanied with others.

If I am wrong you enjoy the privilege to correct me.
But my question is quite different.
How the “Jesus God” born?
Do you get the point or further clarification needed?

By the way Respected BrAiKi,
Which version of the Bible you are quoting please?
KJV, USCCB-NAB, KJV1611 Edition, Good News of Bible, NIV ?

Each year his parents went to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover,
and when he was twelve years old, they went up according to festival custom.

Well understood.
From child hood he used to accompany and at age of 12 he went, may be alone, may be accompanied with others.

If I am wrong you enjoy the privilege to correct me.
But my question is quite different.
How the “Jesus God” born?
Do you get the point or further clarification needed?

you asked if Jesus talking on the cradle was mentioned in the Bible, I answered that the first quote of Jesus at the youngest age was what I quoted there, meaning, there was no such thing in the Bible. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's based on my readings, any christian can correct me.
It is from the New American Catholic Bible :)

You are most welcome and if you have more questions I'll try my best to answer them.

Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate, right?

The question is, what is the reason for God incarnation in a human form?

The Bible has nothing about Jesus speaking from the cradle.

Thats the Islamic version.

wudjab, is the Bible the true word of God?

And you forgot to answer the question about incarnation.

you asked if Jesus talking on the cradle was mentioned in the Bible, I answered that the first quote of Jesus at the youngest age was what I quoted there, meaning, there was no such thing in the Bible. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's based on my readings, any christian can correct me.
It is from the New American Catholic Bible :)

You are most welcome and if you have more questions I'll try my best to answer them.

Is that precondition ?
In our case you give open challenge to any human of belonging to any religion, from any color or creed.

It is from the New American Catholic Bible :)


Yes, you quoted from USCCB-NAB

Perhaps the distinguished Moderator applied his/her privilege not to quote the narration / interpretation of those verses described in the footnote.
It is here for the common member like me.

12 [41-52] This story's concern with an incident from Jesus' youth is unique in the canonical gospel tradition. It presents Jesus in the role of the faithful Jewish boy, raised in the traditions of Israel, and fulfilling all that the law requires. With this episode, the infancy narrative ends just as it began, in the setting of the Jerusalem temple.

I wish to know how “Jesus God” came to her Mother womb according to Holy Bible?

Is that precondition ?
In our case you give open challenge to any human of belonging to any religion, from any color or creed.

that's concerned with READING, if you read a quote of Jesus that was recorded at an earlier age, then do share. I said a Christian member can correct me because Christians read the Bible :yes:

Quoting the bible as a context doesn't require quoting the footnotes.

Stop picking on me because it won't get anywhere :)

that's concerned with READING, if you read a quote of Jesus that was recorded at an earlier age, then do share. I said a Christian member can correct me because Christians read the Bible :yes:

Quoting the bible as a context doesn't require quoting the footnotes.

Stop picking on me because it won't get anywhere :)

As far The Bible is concern, I shall try to keep my mouth shut, Inshaalla.
I don’t know where that could lead me.
“Your religion thy unto you”
I have no intention nor I have been taught to discredited any person or faith.

Please accept my honest gratitude that you have saved me.

Yes, you quoted from USCCB-NAB

Perhaps the distinguished Moderator applied his/her privilege not to quote the narration / interpretation of those verses described in the footnote.
It is here for the common member like me.



I wish to know how “Jesus God” came to her Mother womb according to Holy Bible?
First of all, it's not "Jesus God". It's simply Jesus or God. Jesus if you are referring to the human incarnate of God.

And he came to be in the same exact way you believe it. By the power of God, who sent Angel Gabriel to tell Mary to expect a Child from God and that it was His will..

Nothing to argue about there..

First of all, it's not "Jesus God". It's simply Jesus or God. Jesus if you are referring to the human incarnate of God.

And he came to be in the same exact way you believe it. By the power of God, who sent Angel Gabriel to tell Mary to expect a Child from God and that it was His will..

Nothing to argue about there..

I wish to stay away from the thread.

We believe in Allah and Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) messenger of Allah.

Inverted coma imposed, because we Muslim do not agree Jesus as God in any form.

Please do not throw any question referring to my name , please, let the thread run in own way and to its own destiny.

Well , can you quote the verse where God asked Angel Gabriel to meet Marry, according to the Bible?

What Angel Gabriel stated to Marry, exact verse, chapter and number, please?

Security ?

Can we please escort Shamsery from the room ?

I wish to stay away from the thread.

We believe in Allah and Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) messenger of Allah.

Inverted coma imposed, because we Muslim do not agree Jesus as God in any form.

Please do not throw any question referring to my name , please, let the thread run in own way and to its own destiny.

Well , can you quote the verse where God asked Angel Gabriel to meet Marry, according to the Bible?

What Angel Gabriel stated to Marry, exact verse, chapter and number, please?
My pleasure.



Luke 1
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."

38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

Security ?

Can we please escort Shamsery from the room ?

My presence will not give you pleasure here.

So many cuttings are with me and if I start pasting, that may not be good for you.

I have no intention to go in controversy.

My pleasure.

Honestly not interested to exercise my privilege, don’t force me, please.

What, you're still here ?

Doesn't your word mean anything to you ?

I wish to stay away from the thread

clouds asked a question on another thread and it seemed suitable for me to bring it up here:

Do Christians believe that Jesus died on the Cross? And where is His Body now?

I have a feeling that this is a question that expects a certain answer and that wants to use it to make a certain point! :p But I like those kinds of questions anyway, so here goes:

1. Yes, Christians believe that Jesus died on the Cross. And I think it's worth pointing out that though non-believing historical scholars doubt many of the miraculous claims of Christianity, this is one matter on which even the most atheistic scripture scholars and historians--everyone pretty much with a few rare exceptions--agrees with the Christians: If we know anything about the man Jesus of Nazareth, it is that He was crucified and died.

2. Let me answer the question about Jesus' body by simply quoting the Nicene Creed that most Catholics recite on Sunday:

"On the third day, He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father."

That means that His physical body is now beyond space and time and remains united with His Divine Person forever. The Son of God always existed as a Divine Person. But His Humanity once taken up is never relinquished.

clouds asked a question on another thread and it seemed suitable for me to bring it up here:

Do Christians believe that Jesus died on the Cross? And where is His Body now?

I have a feeling that this is a question that expects a certain answer and that wants to use it to make a certain point! :p But I like those kinds of questions anyway, so here goes:

1. Yes, Christians believe that Jesus died on the Cross. And I think it's worth pointing out that though non-believing historical scholars doubt many of the miraculous claims of Christianity, this is one matter on which even the most atheistic scripture scholars and historians--everyone pretty much with a few rare exceptions--agrees with the Christians: If we know anything about the man Jesus of Nazareth, it is that He was crucified and died.

2. Let me answer the question about Jesus' body by simply quoting the Nicene Creed that most Catholics recite on Sunday:

"On the third day, He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father."

That means that His physical body is now beyond space and time and remains united with His Divine Person forever. The Son of God always existed as a Divine Person. But His Humanity once taken up is never relinquished.

Why God left his SON dead on the cross for THREE whole days?

woudn't his body be rottened?

why he didn't raise him up to heaven at the first moment he "died"?

Um, why should any of those things be true? In any case, Jesus' body was not on the cross for three days. Only for part of one. He was taken down after His Death and put in a tomb.

I don't know, nor do I have to have all the details of the story. I suppose Jesus' body could have begun to decompose. On the other hand, maybe it was just waiting for him in a state of suspended animation. There are bodies of saints today that have not decomposed after their deaths, so I don't see why that shouldn't be true of Jesus' Divine body.

Why three days? Gee, we can speculate. Why does God make the decisions He makes about time and when to do things? Jesus died on a Friday and the resurrection occurred on a Sunday. Sunday is the Day of Creation, the First day. And His Resurrection was the beginning of the New Creation, redeemed from sin.

Death had it's time of Dominion over Him Who was by Nature deathless. And during this "time", Jesus had something to do. He "delivered the spirits in bondage", He went to the World of the Dead, the "Hell" of the Fathers, to bring them the Good News of the Gospel and deliver them into the Fulness of Life.

God's ways are mysterious. We can give answers to them but the answers don't exhaust the Mystery behind the Facts. Why God waits until tomorrow to do what He could do today is always a Mystery.

what about if Jesus did not actually DIED nor CRUCIFIED, cause God loves him so much, he will not let him physically suffer, so he raised him up to heaven just before he was actually put on the cross, and the person who was actually crucified was just an image of Jesus pbuh, but not Jesus himself.

I think this supports more your argument as a Christian that God actually saved Jesus and didn't let him suffer, because he is his beloved "son".

I suppose that's your fairy tale version, eh Clouds ?

So God made another innocent look-alike man suffer instead?

How does that fit into your "merciful God" argument?

So God made another innocent look-alike man suffer instead?

How does that fit into your "merciful God" argument?


there was nobody, no man, no one crucified it was just an IMAGE of Jesus.

and this no fairy tale Wudjab, it's the TRUTH.

It was not Jesus PBUH that was put on the cross, but someone else, that is the Islamic perspective. Some say it was Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Jesus to the Jews.

This is completely irrelevant to this thread, however...This thread is about how CHRISTIANS believe in Jesus, not Muslims.

[Threadlike, it's a good point, but I answered clouds before I read your post. In any case, it's a question like this: Doesn't our way of looking at things seem more reasonable to you? Why don't you accept that instead?

So, anyway, this is my answer...why that answer doesn't seem plausible to us. I understand that for Muslims, who reject the whole framework of the Christian story, the answer might be plausible. But the real point is that the it's not just a little bit here and there that is different. The Christian story of Jesus and the Muslim story of Issa really are completely different.]


clouds:

It's a nice thought, but it doesn't fit the purpose of Jesus' coming here.

He came here to die. That's what He came here for. He came here to suffer and die with us and for us, to deliver us from the end results of suffering and death.

I know that story about the "image" of Jesus being crucified. It's one of the Muslim alternatives. But anyway, it seems to me wholly implausible.

His Mother was there. His friends were there. His body was taken down and given to them.

They knew Him. They held Him in their arms after His Death. They put Him in the tomb. They rolled a stone in front of it to keep out predators.

After His Resurrection, Thomas put his fingers into His wounded hands and side.

And both before and after His death and resurrection, He told them what would happen:

Before:

As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is to be handed over to men,
and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day." And they were overwhelmed with grief.

Matthew 17: 22-23.

No one takes my life from me. I will lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take my life back again.

John 10: 18.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

John 2: 19.

After:

[The disciples on the third day, speaking to Jesus and telling His story to Him:] The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."

He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Luke 24: 20-27.

Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."
Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe."
Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."

John 20: 24-29.

No, I'm afraid that as usual when Muslims talk about this stuff, the impression we Christians get is that they are just missing the point. Missing the whole point.

It was not Jesus PBUH that was put on the cross, but someone else, that is the Islamic perspective. Some say it was Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Jesus to the Jews.

This is completely irrelevant to this thread, however...This thread is about how CHRISTIANS believe in Jesus, not Muslims.

Where you got this interesting info TL?

another person crucified instead of Jesus!!!!!!!!

which Islamic scholar said that?

give proof please.

^And vice versa Jeff :P
This is one of the core reasons of why Christianity is Christianity and Islam is Islam...

Gladly clouds (sorry, I am really not trying to divert the topic, just had to answer clouds):
Verse 157 of Surat al Nisa'a,
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not
Tafseer al Jalalyn of the verse:
And for their saying, boastfully, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’, as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says, in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus’s] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of, him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he; and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā‘a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: ‘instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]’; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).

Where you got this interesting info TL?

another person crucified instead of Jesus!!!!!!!!

which Islamic scholar said that?

give proof please.
I'd believe TL before I'd believe a literal "image" was "crucified".

You can't crucify an "image", can't draw blood from an image. Can't drive nails through an "image".

Threadlike:

I understand that but if you ask me which is more likely:

~ if people capture a man, speak with him, whip him brutally, take him to the cross and nail him to it in front of everyone, listen to him speaking until he expires, then take him down, give his body to his relatives and friends and allow them to bury him and everyone there--his family, his relatives, and his friends and his enemies--all recognize him, who they knew.

~And he told them all that this would happen before he died.

...

which is more likely? That the man was killed as it seemed? Or that God made it so that someone else was crucified in His place and everyone was deceived?

My guess is that to a person who had heard neither story before, the first would appear overwhelmingly more likely.

And so it appears to us.

But it's true that it all depends on where you start from.

If you are convinced the Quran is true, you will believe what the Quran says. If you don't believe in the Quran, this part is very unlikely to impress you.

I think though the best place to understand Christianity is just to go back to the beginning of the thread and read my little story again. This is the heart of Christianity.

If this is the Story you believe, then all the little arguments about this or that are not going to affect you.

^Well I cannot exactly add to the Qura'nic description...I am not a professional in calling people to Islam or to preach verses of the Qura'n further than the books I've partly read allow me.

But it fits...For me and for all Muslims that I know personally. Jesus PBUH was a prophet of Allah SWT. To prevent his unjust death and save him from the hands of those who do not believe and those who refused his message, Allah SWT raised him up to His heavens and placed another person of his like in his place on the cross. It is a miracle of Jesus PBUH...A miracle unlike no other for any other prophet of Allah.

From my point of view, for a person who hears this for the first time and who believes in Allah's power over all, it is definitely more likely that Allah SWT would not let his prophet, one of His most loved ones, die so unjustly.

Gladly clouds (sorry, I am really not trying to divert the topic, just had to answer clouds):
Verse 157 of Surat al Nisa'a,

Tafseer al Jalalyn of the verse:

Threadlike I apologize for my poor info about this verse of Al Nisaa'.

You are absolutely right

the image of Jesus was imposed into another man of the Jews who tried to crucify Jesus

But Jesus himself was raised to God before they can crucify him.

Thank you ThreadLike.

^You're welcome clouds :cute:

Why ?

Why would Allah do this ?

Why ?

Why would Allah do this ?

because Allah does not want Jesus to suffer on the cross, so he saved him.

simple isn't it?

But..

Christian Scripture specifically mentions Jesus's death on the Cross.. several centuries before it happened...

and then Allah changed his mind at the last minute and switched an imposter in there ?

As they say in IBM, it just does not compute.

Jesus did die on the Golgotha. His cross was found by St. Helen, mother of Constantine the Great...buried under the temple of Venus which the Romans built on top of the golgotha. Next to the cross was the 'INRI' plaque which was placed on the cross, according to the scriptures. This is documented in a diary of a bishop who went with Helena on the pilgrimage to Palestine...google a bit anyway.... :)

This is turning hopelessly nowhere...
Unless someone here is interested in converting to Christianity or to Islam, I think we'll need to get the topic back to its original course. And the original course was religious education.

wudjab, Allah did not change His mind. He does not play with this Earth, for He is most wise. His final revelation was the Qura'n, Muslims do not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus as believed in Christianity or Judaism as shown clearly in the Holy Qura'n verses. The matters of their alleged 'foretelling' are subject to those who claim them. Muslims believe that Jesus PBUH was a prophet of Allah, who delivered his message and was raised in honor of being reached and murdered by evil hands. Period. Bottom-line. Finito. You can accept this view or you can stick to what you believe in.

In the end we can all agree:
"To you be your Way, and to me mine." --The Holy Qura'n, 109:6.

Jesus did die on the Golgotha. His cross was found by St. Helen, mother of Constantine the Great...buried under the temple of Venus which the Romans built on top of the golgotha. Next to the cross was the 'INRI' plaque which was placed on the cross, according to the scriptures. This is documented in a diary of a bishop who went with Helena on the pilgrimage to Palestine...google a bit anyway.... :)
That Helena. What a woman! :D

That Helena. What a woman! :D
We should invite them over next August :D

Ok looks like this is a thread where I can learn a bit more about this :cute:
What is Heaven like in Christianity? Like are there any descriptions of it and are there "ranks" of Heaven...?

Lots of wine women and song.

There are gardens and vineyards, and overflowing cups of non alcholic wine, along with high bosomed virgins.

Lots of bashful, dark-eyed virgins shall recline on couches ranged in rows.

Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before.

My bad.

Thats the Islamic heaven.

In Christian Heaven, being in the presence of God will be enough.

So there aren't any descriptions of Heaven in the Bible?

Lots of wine women and song.

There are gardens and vineyards, and overflowing cups of non alcholic wine, along with high bosomed virgins.

Lots of bashful, dark-eyed virgins shall recline on couches ranged in rows.

Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before.

My bad.

Thats the Islamic heaven.

In Christian Heaven, being in the presence of God will be enough.Hey ... drop the virgin part and I've been to that heaven ... several times. Well maybe a few were virgins ... :p

So there aren't any descriptions of Heaven in the Bible?

Not really.

Don't you think being in the presence of God, who'm you lived all your life trying to serve, is a reward enough ?

Not really.

Don't you think being in the presence of God, who'm you lived all your life trying to serve, is a reward enough ?

Yeah I think it's a wonderful reward after a life of serving him :)

I guess this also means that there are no "ranks" of Heaven. Like the better person you are the higher the rank of Heaven you are going to obtain in the end, right?

No, there are no ranks (AFAIK).

You're either in our you're out.

Thanks Wudjab. The thing is...Nuns dedicate their life to serving God right? I find it kind of unfair that they don't get rewarded more in the end because of the sacrifices they made in their life on Earth.

In Christianity do you get rewarded in the end according to how good a person you were on Earth and how you served God?

But..

Christian Scripture specifically mentions Jesus's death on the Cross.. several centuries before it happened...

and then Allah changed his mind at the last minute and switched an imposter in there ?

As they say in IBM, it just does not compute.

No wudjab, that is not true. The scripture of Judas that was hidden for years agrees with the Quraanic view.
That's why Catholics are forbidden to read it :)

Aww. surely you can do better than that Braiki ?

That coming from Shamsery, I could expect.

But from you ?

(PS: Catholics are not forbidden from reading anything).

Surely it is coming from me, because I've seen it with my eyes.
There is no ruling for sure that says you are not forbidden to read it, but ask the nearest priest about the writings of Judas, and see what would he answer you ;)

Anyway, my point was that it's not something totally new (Jesus talking to Judas):
But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Aww. surely you can do better than that Braiki ?

That coming from Shamsery, I could expect.

But from you ?

(PS: Catholics are not forbidden from reading anything).

I am a catholic, I definetly would not be reading that stuff, why dont you go ask your local Father and see what he says, im sure it wont be good

You seem to have some difficulty understanding the meaning of the word FORBIDDEN tough guy.

Catholics are not FORBIDDEN from reading anything.

We might be RECOMMENDED to read something or NOT TO read something else.

But we are not FORBIDDEN from reading the fables of Judas.

I understand, and you are correct that it is not forbidden, but it is discouraged by many Catholics and it is not looked at as a Christian book. it is called a gnostic book, and it is good for historical value and nothing more. It is not to be looked at as a religious text, painting Judas in a positive light, nor is it to be covered up. Reading it as a religious text flies in the face of Catholocism. I guess it depends on how you read it.

I might be wrong when I used the word forbidden, but that's what I meant.
I hope its clear now

Pen It Black:

Wow, I admire your charity and friendly attitude! :)

Wudjab is right: In Heaven we all get the Beatific Vision. Our reward is to be caught up in the Life of God Himself in a way that we cannot imagine but that is Perfect Joy.

There are various images of it that have been used: One of my favorites is one popular in Medieval Times: The General Dance.

Some of us may have a greater capacity than others for a greater role. Or we might have a place "closer" to God in that we are capable of dealing with and using more of His grace in a deeper or more responsible way. So, for example, Mary is and will always remain the Queen of Heaven, the greatest of all God's creatures.

But our reward is tailored to our capacity. The main point is that everyone will be all that they can be. Everyone will get just as much reward as they can stand. In order to get more of a reward, they would have to be someone else, to have a different individual nature and capacity.

No one in Heaven will be jealous or think that it's unfair that someone else got more or less. Everyone will be caught up in universal joy of a life of perfect communion with God, where we see Him and yet live and He sees us in something like the bliss that lovers feel but raised to a universal dimension.

We can't imagine it. But it is better, infinitely better, than anything we could imagine anyway.

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those that love Him.

1 Corinthians 2: 9.

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those that love Him.

So it's kinda like Ghaib :p (unseen and unknown)

Cheers Jeff

yeah, there are lots of different versions of heaven, from revelation to many more modern interpretations with clouds and such. From what I have learned in Catholic school, most just believe that it is more of a "state" than a place in which you are at pease with God

that the Apostle Paul preached the Gospel for the Gentiles [non Jews] and the other eleven Apostles were sent exclusively to the Jewish community. So the Pope, who claims to be the successor of Peter - who, like Jesus before his crucifixion, was preaching to the Jews only - claims to be head of a Jewish community.

http://www.chocr.com/ministry/beliefs.htm

Is after crucifixion started to preach all mankind?

I am not sure, please explain.

I don't know why you should say that Peter and the other Apostles are sent exclusively to the Jews.

At the end of the Gospel of Matthew, not written by Paul at all and the most "Judaic" Gospel in tone, Jesus says to all the Apostles:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Matthew 28: 19.

In the Acts of the Apostles (the first book of the New Testament after the Gospels), we see Peter visiting with and ministering to non-Jewish converts and participating and making the final decisions about how the Church should handle them and whether they should follow Jewish Law.

Peter's First Letter refers to his "brother, Paul".

Paul was called "Apostle to the Gentiles" because that was his primary mission, but no reason to believe it was the exclusive one.

Long and consistent tradition maintains that many of the Apostles travelled to distant lands, Bartholomew to Armenia, Thomas to India, etc. And the Apostle Peter travelled to Rome and was crucified there.

Christianity understands itself to be the fulfilment of Judaism, if that's what you mean.

Matthew 28: 19.
In the Acts of the Apostles (the first book of the New Testament after the Gospels), we see Peter visiting with and ministering to non-Jewish converts and participating and making the final decisions about how the Church should handle them and whether they should follow Jewish Law.


Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Jesus and his Apostles taught The Kingdom of God to the Jews.
Apostle Paul taught the Salvation through Jesus Christ to the Body of Christ
http://www.chocr.com/ministry/Apostlepaul.htm

Is after crucifixion started to preach all mankind?

Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Jesus and his Apostles taught The Kingdom of God to the Jews.
Apostle Paul taught the Salvation through Jesus Christ to the Body of Christ
http://www.chocr.com/ministry/Apostlepaul.htm

Is after crucifixion started to preach all mankind?

The first quotation comes from early in Jesus' ministry. But His later instructions supercede that.

The second quotation talks about Jesus' personal mission. But there are many examples of Jesus' Himself preaching to and healing non-Jews. Such as the Canaanite woman and the Centurion (Matthew 8:8-10.)

And the remarkable thing about those stories is how Jesus' uses them as an example of the superior faith of the non-Jews to many Jews. In fact, your quotation from Matthew 15 comes precisely from that story of the Canaanite woman. The point of which is that the Gentiles cannot be kept out of Jesus' ministry, they insist on forcing their way in, and in the end, Jesus welcomes them. Jesus' statement about "only to the Jews" operates as a test of how much the Canaanite woman believes in Him. When she passes the test, she is welcomed and praised above the Jews.

Those examples are from BEFORE the Crucifixion.

Jesus also tells many parables which apply to this, such as the Parable of the Wedding Feast. The King invites the proper wedding guests, but they all have excuses and will not come. So he goes out into the highways and byways and collects people who have nothing to do with his family and make THEM come to the Wedding Feast instead.

Jesus also says, speaking to the Jews who doubt Him:

I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

John 10: 16.

Since Jesus said to the Apostles, "Whoever hears you hears me", and since Peter and Matthew and John, as well, as Paul, all preached the Gospel to the Gentiles, I figure they know the will of their Master and can be trusted on this as on every other matter.

The first quotation comes from early in Jesus' ministry. But His later instructions supercede that.

The second quotation talks about Jesus' personal mission. But there are many examples of Jesus' Himself preaching to and healing non-Jews. Such as the Canaanite woman and the Centurion (Matthew 8:8-10.)


Those examples are from BEFORE the Crucifixion.

Jesus also tells many parables which apply to this, such as the Parable of the Wedding Feast.

Jesus also says, speaking to the Jews who doubt Him:

John 10: 16.

Since Jesus said to the Apostles, "Whoever hears you hears me", and since Peter and Matthew and John, as well, as Paul, all preached the Gospel to the Gentiles, I figure they know the will of their Master and can be trusted on this as on every other matter.

t is important to notice that Christ made the distinction as other sheep…not of this fold. “This fold” refers to the Jews who were living in Judea at that time. Jesus, being of the tribe of Judah, brought the Gospel message, from the Father, to His own people first. They rejected both the Messenger and the Message. In the “parable of the ten pounds” in Luke 19:14 we read, “But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’” Even more brutal is the account of Matthew 27:25 where they said, “His blood be on us, and on our children.”

We are left then, with the “other sheep…not of this fold.” Throughout the Bible, God refers to the people of Israel as His sheep. There is no indication that this is referring to the Gentiles. Those other sheep are the other tribes of Israel. We find in Matthew 10:6 Christ’s instruction to His disciples, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” The apostle James directly addressed the “lost tribes of Israel” in James 1:1, “…to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad…” The Jews also made the same reference in John 7:35: “…will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles?”

Israel was one united nation until the reign of King Rehoboam. Under Jeroboam, ten tribes separated from Rehoboam to form a new nation called Israel. The remaining tribes with Rehoboam formed a nation that was known as the kingdom of Judah. They have not been united since.

John 10:16 does give a happy, glorious conclusion. Christ said, “…them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” In Ezekiel 37:21-28, we find a very inspiring and detailed prophecy of the final reunion of the tribes of Israel, with David as their resurrected King under the Master Shepherd, Jesus Christ.

I do agree he did cure and feed non-Jews ?

Jesus and his Apostles taught The Kingdom of God to the Jews.
Apostle Paul taught the Salvation through Jesus Christ to the Body of Christ.
Is after crucifixion started to preach all mankind?

t is important to notice that Christ made the distinction as other sheep…not of this fold. “This fold” refers to the Jews who were living in Judea at that time. Jesus, being of the tribe of Judah, brought the Gospel message, from the Father, to His own people first. They rejected both the Messenger and the Message. In the “parable of the ten pounds” in Luke 19:14 we read, “But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’” Even more brutal is the account of Matthew 27:25 where they said, “His blood be on us, and on our children.”

We are left then, with the “other sheep…not of this fold.” Throughout the Bible, God refers to the people of Israel as His sheep. There is no indication that this is referring to the Gentiles. Those other sheep are the other tribes of Israel. We find in Matthew 10:6 Christ’s instruction to His disciples, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” The apostle James directly addressed the “lost tribes of Israel” in James 1:1, “…to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad…” The Jews also made the same reference in John 7:35: “…will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles?”

Israel was one united nation until the reign of King Rehoboam. Under Jeroboam, ten tribes separated from Rehoboam to form a new nation called Israel. The remaining tribes with Rehoboam formed a nation that was known as the kingdom of Judah. They have not been united since.

John 10:16 does give a happy, glorious conclusion. Christ said, “…them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” In Ezekiel 37:21-28, we find a very inspiring and detailed prophecy of the final reunion of the tribes of Israel, with David as their resurrected King under the Master Shepherd, Jesus Christ.

I do agree he did cure and feed non-Jews ?

Jesus and his Apostles taught The Kingdom of God to the Jews.
Apostle Paul taught the Salvation through Jesus Christ to the Body of Christ.
Is after crucifixion started to preach all mankind?

Well, the fellow says, "it's important to realize" that Jesus was talking about the "twelve tribes scattered abroad", but he doesn't give a reason for his unconvincing assertion.

I agree that Jesus' mission before His Death was focussed on the Jews and not the Gentiles. But in light of the Parable of the Wedding Guests, where other Jews don't seem to fit the picture, but people who have no right to be at the feast at all and in light of the fact that Jesus ACTIONS and real ministry show that He was perfectly happy to find FAITH among the Gentiles and to accept them as Faithful Followers, as the story of the Centurion and the Canaanite woman show, I think it is really unlikely on its merits that the explanation of "other sheep that are not of this fold" means Jews living abroad. Jews living abroad are hardly different enough from Jews living in Israel to warrant the distinction made. "God's flock" of sheep of course always already included all the Jewish people, no matter where they lived. Most Jews in Jesus day lived abroad as they still do today.

"The Twelve Tribes of Israel living abroad" are the followers of the Twelve Apostles, whose number Jesus chose. Israel is not confined to Jews by blood. Israel is the children of Abraham. God can CREATE children to Abraham. And the children of Abraham need not be blood descendants, as Jesus explained to the Jews:

"Don't start to say to yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say to you, That God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham."

Luke 3: 8.

So my answer is:

Jesus earthly ministry was FOCUSSED on the children of Israel but did not exclude them. He gave the example to His disciples of accepting non-Jews and in fact pointing out that they were His best followers. He taught by parable and explanation before the Crucifixion that in the end, the Kingdom of Heaven would open to include non-heirs as well as heirs and even that the non-heirs would have the greater role.

AFTER the Crucifixion, Jesus sent the disciples out to the whole world explicitly. And from the very beginning, all the apostles--not just Paul--preached to the Gentiles and included them prominently among members of the new Church.

But this is not different from Jesus, as is shown by the greatest examples of faith among his followers: the Canaanite Woman and the Centurion.

And the Apostles knew exactly what they were doing. Because when the Apostles speak, Jesus speaks. That's what Jesus says.

So, I trust those that Jesus gave His Message to for interpretation and guaranteed its trustworthiness--the Apostles--to explain the passages in question. Not your rather unconvincing friend whom you have forgotten to link to.

Hairly,

What is the Restored Church of God ?

Hairly,

What is the Restored Church of God ?
http://www.thercg.org/home.html

It's just a small Protestant sect that "read the Bible for themselves" and came up with their own weird ideas. There are thousands of these groups among Protestants.

As for me, I trust the Church: "You are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church. And the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it....Behold: I am with you even to the End of Time"

Hairly, you've been a naughty boy.

Cutting and pasting from the loony web site and passing it off as your own.

But this is not different from Jesus, as is shown by the greatest examples of faith among his followers: the Canaanite Woman and the Centurion.
.

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [It is wrong to take what is for ISRAEL and give it to the Gentiles (the dogs are we Gentiles, because he was sent to minister to the JEWS)]

Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. [She begged to have crumbs of his Grace, even though she is a Gentile and in his and the Jews eyes not better than a dog, and she received a miracle of love]

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

http://www.chocr.com/ministry/Apostlepaul.htm
I do agree he did cure other non-Jews. But he explains what his mission as above.

Jesus and his Apostles taught The Kingdom of God to the Jews.
Apostle Paul taught the Salvation through Jesus Christ to the Body of Christ.

Is after crucifixion started to preach all mankind?

Church of Christian Reformation ?

Tee Hee.

He not only cured them. He accepted them as People of Faith, as His Followers.

As I've explained before, Christ's earthly mission was FOCUSSED on the Jews, but did not exclude the Gentiles. The Gentiles were from the beginning among His most faithful followers. And THAT is the point of these stories.

Jesus often SAYS something to provoke a contradiction. He wants people to push deeper.

So for example, when the Rich Young Man comes and asks what he should do to be saved, Jesus says: "Follow the Law". The rich young man says, "I have always done that, but more is needed." And this CONTRADICTION is what Jesus WANTS. "And Jesus looked on him and loved him."

So, Jesus rejection of the Canaanite woman is meant to bring out her faith. She is rejected, but she REFUSES rejection because her faith is so great. And her rejection and then acceptance becomes a lesson to the Jews not to be proud an put too much stock in just being Jews: God's grace through Jesus is for EVERYONE. The same lesson I mentioned before: God can raise children to Abraham from the stones.

Translation: Jesus message is for anyone who comes. It is preached freely and given freely.

So, to answer your question yet again: No. It begins with Jesus actions and His teachings before the Crucifixion. But it comes to full flower quickly after His Death in obedience to His Command. As He predicted, the heirs would not show up at the wedding feast. So the King has brought the non-heirs into the feast and cast the others out.

When you start running your mind over these things, think of more and more examples.

So, I remember that Jesus said:

"And I, if I be lifted up, WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF."

John 12: 32.

Jesus intent is to draw ALL MEN to Himself, not just Jews. His earthly mission is focussed on, but hardly exclusive to, His fellow Jews. But the POINT of the earthly mission is to lead to His Saving and Redeeming Death:

For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later."

Mark 9: 31.

So, I trust those that Jesus gave His Message to for interpretation and guaranteed its trustworthiness--the Apostles--to explain the passages in question. Not your rather unconvincing friend whom you have forgotten to link to.


Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Are Christian pray as per Jesus teaching?

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Are Christian pray as per Jesus teaching?

What do you mean? I'm not getting the point.

We pray

"Thy Will be done" as part of our central prayer, the prayer the Lord Jesus Himself taught us:

Our Father, Who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done,
On earth as it is in Heaven.