which Bible is right ? [Archive]

mimosa

15-01-08, 04:49 PM

To get back to the point of the thread, it is important for Muslims to understand that the Qur'An and the Bible are very different: The Bible is a collection of writings, that contains some divine revelation. Christians believe that it was "divinely inspired", but it is not the world of God in the first person. Maybe Jeff or any other practising Christians if there are any, could confirm or correct that? I would also be interested to see Mr Monotheism's view.

But the Qur'An is what Muslims believe to be, not just contain revelation: It is the word of Allah sub7ano wa t3alo, given in the first person, directly revealed through one channel, memorised and codified within their lifetime by those who heard it first from the mouth of the Prophet :PBUH:. And that first complete written version, the "Othmani" Qur'An, still exists.

I was looking around at some Christian sites, and came across a question (or rather rhetorical criticism), asking why God would protect and preserve the Qur'An, as it states, and not do the same for the revelations in the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel (Tawra, Zaboor, Injeel in Arabic). The answer from a Muslim point of view is simple, and fundamental to Islamic belief: Yes, Muslims believe that the All-Knowing God revealed divinge guidance to mankind through these three means, through the same prophets that Christians and Jews will recognise: Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.

But Muslims also believe that these previous revelations were always destined to be corrupted by those who were not true believers, and hence also Muslim belief that the Bible itself, although now imperfect, still contains the message that a further prophet would come to finally return mankind to the right path, with a pure and perfect and complete revelation. And Muslims believe that perfect and final revelation is the Qur'An, delivered through Mohammed :PBUH:

Anyway, here are the descriptions of the different versions of the Bible: Just so that I might not be accused of too much bias, I ignored all the Islamic sites that post information on the various versions. This one comes from a Catholic site, and the link is here (http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Glossary.htm).

As you can see, many different versions from many different sources, with many different books. One thing has always stuck in my mind: There are no original Aramaic, Latin or Hebrew texts known for the four Gospels found in most Bibles - they are Greek texts, and do not refer to any other original. Even though Jesus was an Aramaic-speaking Jew living in the Roman empire...so presumably his disciples were too. Of course Greek might have been a language used by the most erudite scholars...but carpenters and fishermen? Anyway, have a look at the link, it's interesting historically, whatever you believe.

IceTea

15-01-08, 05:11 PM

Some details about the Bible:

a) The Bible is divided into two parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is the Holy Scripture of the Jews and contains records of all the prophets of the Jews that came before Jesus (pbuh).

The New Testament contains records of the life of Jesus (pbuh).

b) The complete Bible, i.e. the Old Testament and the New Testament put together, contains 73 books. However, the Protestant Bible i.e. the King James Version, contains only 66 books as they consider 7 books of the Old Testament to be apocrypha, i.e. of doubtful authority.

Therefore the Old Testament of the Catholics, contains 46 books and that of the Protestants, 39 books. However the New Testament of both these sects contains 27 books.

73 books while the Quran is ONE book.

shamsery

15-01-08, 05:13 PM

Dear Mr Jack,
Honestly again I do not wish to step in booby trap.
You know already I am busy with a very serious tread.
Wish you all the best.
Perhaps I have gone throw The Bible than many many Christian.
From the Islamic viewpoint I cannot agree with you.
But for sure I endorse your comment that each scripture for well being of humanity and never advocate heinousness and damaging the values that internationally accepted for human beings.
Wish you all the best and continue the discussion based on logic and science.
Regards,

Note: Discussion should continue in modest way, with love, regards and affection. Never strike to others religious faith. Allah is all knowing and religion is thy un to them.

BrAiKi

15-01-08, 06:23 PM

The Quraan mentioned the Gospel, not the bible.
Injeel means Gospel in english, which mean good news
The Bible is the whole book that contains The gospels along with other books.

The reason why there are so many versions of the Bible is because they are translations. Just like the translations that we got of the Quraan, for example we got yousuf ali's translation, picktall's translation, etc.
now which of those translations is right? Thats similar to the question that you're asking.
now to answer that question, no one can tell, because at the end they're just translations.

was Prophet Mohammed mentioned in the Bible?
In the OT (Old testament) there are some prophecies that - by reading reading prophet mohammed's stories - were fullfilled, but then again its not a direct prophecy. Faith plays a big role in it.
In the NT (New testament) there is one prophecy which is not direct as well. Again, what you believe in plays a big role in it.

minerva

15-01-08, 06:27 PM

i've read the bible and never read about Mohammed in it.
The 'differences' in the bibles is that the protestant one has a couple of books less than the catholic one.
the stories, the quotes, the names, the happennings are all the same exactly as far as i know.

mimosa

15-01-08, 06:35 PM

Minni: Mohammed is not mentioned by name in the Gospels; there are some allegorical references that are alleged to refer to his coming. It's a matter of debate like Mr Shamsery said.

Braiki: No, it's not just about the translations. Read the link I posted. The Bible is a collection of the Torah, the Psalms, four Gospels, and a whole other bunch of books and letters from various people. Some "bibles" include more or fewer of them, so the actual content of the Bible varies considerably from sect to sect.

IceTea

15-01-08, 07:02 PM

Individual versions
(AAT) The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, 1939.
(ABT) The Afro Bible Translation
(ATB) The Alternate Translation Bible
(ASV) American Standard Version (purchase ASV)
(AB) The Amplified Bible (editions for sale)
(ALT) Analytical-Literal Translation
(ASL) American Sign Language Translation
(AV) Authorized Version (same as KJV)
(Bar) The New Testament: A New Translation, by William Barclay
(BLB) The Better Life Bible
(BWE) Bible in WorldWide English
The Bible Gateway Translation Information (see BWE description)
(CCB) Christian Community Bible
(CE) The Common Edition: New Testament
(CJB) Complete Jewish Bible
Comparison with NIV
(CV) Concordant Version
(CEV) Contemporary English Version
CEV online
Energion review
Interview: On the Shoulders of King James
Ken Anderson review
Michael Marlow review
Tyndale website overview
(Dar) Darby
(DR) Douay-Rheims
(DRP) David Robert Palmer's translations of the gospels
(EMTV) English Majority Text Version
(ENT) Extreme New Testament (revision of Simple English Bible, below)
Forward, by Tommy Tenney
(ERV) Easy-to-Read Version
(ESV) English Standard Version
(FF) Ferrar Fenton Bible
(GLW) God's Living Word
(GNC) God's New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, by Heinz W. Cassirer
(GNT) Good News Translation [formerly, (GNB) Good News Bible, and (TEV) Today's English Version]
(GW) God's Word
God's Word online
Review of God's Word, by Wayne Leman
(HCSB) Holman Christian Standard Bible (online, see Access Bibles section, below
article
(HNV) Hebrew Names Version
(ICB) International Children's Bible (children's version of the NCV)
(ISB) International Standard Bible (formerly titled The Simple English Bible)
(ISV) The International Standard Version
ISV Naturalness and Comprehension Survey, by Phil Fields
(JBP) New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips
New Testament in Modern English, Revised, by J.B. Phillips
Student edition
The J. B. Phillips Translation: A Guided Tour
(JNT) Jewish New Testament: A Translation of the New Testament That Expresses Its Jewishness (see Complete Jewish Bible)
(JPS) Jerusalem Publication Society: Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures, The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text

(KJV) King James Version and recent revisions
KJV
Translators to the Reader

(DKJB) Defined King James Bible
DKJB reviewed by Joseph Ng
DKJB reviewed by David W. Cloud
(KJII) King James Version II (renamed to Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)
(KJ21) King James for the 21st Century
KJV21 review
(KJ2000) King James 2000
(LITV) The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (formerly named King James II)
LITV download site
The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible Frequently Asked Questions
(MKJV) Modern King James Version
alternate site
MKJV download site
(NKJV) New King James Version
(RAV) Revised Authorised Version (British edition of the NKJV), review
(RKJV) Revised King James New Testament
(TMB) The Third Millennium Bible
(UKJV) Updated King James Version

(LITV) The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (see under KJV and recent revisions)
(LB) Living Bible
(MAEV) Modern American English Vernacular
discussion list for MAEV
(MLB) Modern Language Bible: New Berkeley Version
(Mof) Bible: James Moffatt Translation (amazon.com)
(NAB) New American Bible
"The New American Bible": A Voice From the Past
(NAB) New American Bible (access entire Bible)
(NASB) New American Standard Bible
What is the philosophy of translation set forth by The Lockman Foundation?
New Berkeley Version (see Modern Language Bible)
(NCV) New Century Version
(NEB) New English Bible
(NET) New English Translation
NET Bible online
Try the NET Bible! (a critique)
An Open Letter Regarding The NET Bible, New Testament (a reply to the critique)
(NET) New Evangelical Translation
(NIrV) New Internation Reader's Version
(NIV) New International Version
The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation
(NJB) New Jerusalem Bible
(NKJV) New King James Version (see under KJV and recent revisions)
(NLV) New Life Version
(NLT) New Living Translation
The Living Bible Reborn
Re: New Living Translation (a review)
(NRSV) New Revised Standard Bible
NRSV critiqued by John H. Dobson
(NWT) New World Translation (published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses)
(OBP) The Original Bible Project
(OSB) Orthodox Study Bible
(ONT) The Original New Testament: The First Definitive Translation of the New Testament in 2000 Years, by Hugh Schonfield
(PMB) Postmodern Bible - Amos
(Rec) Recovery Version
(REB) The Revised English Bible (revision of NEB)
(RSV) Revised Standard Version
(RV) Revised Version, 1885
(RYLT) Revised Young's Literal Translation
(Sch) The Schocken Bible
(SEB) The Simple English Bible
(SENT) Spoken English New Testament
(TM) The Message
A Summary Critique: The Message, by John R. Kohlenberger III
(TMB) The Third Millennium Bible
(TEV) Today's English Version [see (GNT) Good News Translation]
Book Review: Today's English Version (TEV)
(TNIV) Today's New International Version
TNIV website
TNIV Debate Between Dr. Wayne Grudem and Dr. Mark Strauss
TNIV links
(Tyn) Tyndale
(Wey) Weymouth
Preface to the First Edition
(WEB) World English Bible
(Wms) The New Testament in the Language of the People, by Charles B. Williams (another website)
(WNT) Wesley's New Testament
(Wuest) The New Testament (An Expanded Translation) purchase
Yes Word (update of Tyndale translation)
(YLT) Young's Literal Translation of the Bible (download entire text)
view Young's Literal Translation of the Bible
Preface to the First Edition

Which one is the original?

mimosa

15-01-08, 07:07 PM

Ice Tea,

That's a little unfair: They are just different publishers and translations; you could make the same argument about the Qur'An in that case: I have five or six different publishers' versions, in Arabic and in various translations. The difference with the Qur'An is that there is only one original and everyone agrees on what that is. But many of the bibles you list above are also different translations of an identical volume.

Check the link I put please: That shows you the bibles that are actually different in their fundamental content i.e. which books are included in which bibles, and where they are supposed to have come from.

mimosa

15-01-08, 07:16 PM

Just to illustrate, some Orthodox bibles will have up to 14 more books than the Protestant bibles. The Catholic bibles have more books in them than the Protestants, but fewer than the Orthodox.

marianna

15-01-08, 07:29 PM

I follow the doctrine of the Catholic faith and no other. Catholicism was the original church before it splintered after Martin Luther and created the Protestants.

Interesting how much Christianity is attacked here. Makes me wonder if I should remain a member. Why can't people respect someone else's beliefs? Isn't right. One can make scholarly dialogue but shouldn't be condeming other people's beliefs. I don't believe in Islam yet I don't go around poking fun at it nor trashing the belief systems of others because I know it is wrong and creates negativity and life is too short for that kind of emotional garbage.

mimosa

15-01-08, 07:40 PM

I don't think I was attacking you or Christianity Miss Marianna. I agree with you, insults are wrong.

But someone asked a question about the different versions of the Bible, so I found a Catholic source to explain it. Isn't that OK?! I have questions about why it is the way it is too...but I think it's OK to ask in a respectful way?

If you think I'm being disrespectful then I apologise. It is not meant that way. By the way, the Qur'An tells Muslims to be respectful to Christians.

El Rey

15-01-08, 07:54 PM

Yes, it is there in symbolic form.
You need to analyze the Bible and its verses with open mind.
It is also debatable and long discussion.

what do you mean by analyze? you mean it's there indirectly and i have to come up with my conclusion that according to my reading i feel it's written there ? and which Bible or book to analyze ? do all of them mention it ?

The question should be which "book" is right?

The answer would be the one that satisfies your needs.

But that's not your "intentions" with this thread now is it?

You know that Allah knows your "intentions"!

satisfy my needs ? very odd answer to give.. i don't want to know which one is satisfying my needs jack, i want to know which one is the original God's words no matter what they are..

and regarding my intention, i asked this for two reasons:

to have enough knowledge about some real christianity which is very close to Islam and had almost the same messege of Islam, i've been in Australia and lived with a catholic family who put a version of Bible in my room, i took a look at it but my english was not that strong to understand the profound words written there since i was too young and beginner in english.

and the second reason, which i believe you think is my intention, is to remind you that your Bible is not credible and may be faulsed.. but i needed a confirmation straight from the horse mouth..

Jeff

15-01-08, 08:25 PM

To get back to the point of the thread, it is important for Muslims to understand that the Qur'An and the Bible are very different: The Bible is a collection of writings, that contains some divine revelation. Christians believe that it was "divinely inspired", but it is not the world of God in the first person. Maybe Jeff or any other practising Christians if there are any, could confirm or correct that? I would also be interested to see Mr Monotheism's view.

The Catholic teaching on the question, which is also the traditional Orthodox and Protestant understanding, is that, in the classic formulation, "God is the primary author of scripture."

The difference is, I think, that God did not simply "dictate" words to a human visionary (in most cases), but used the human author as a true person with his own understandings, habits of speech, cultural traits, etc. Like a painter using a brush and respecting its character.

When St. Paul wrote the Letter to the Philippians, was he in a trance? Was he listening to an angel and taking down what the angel delivered to him? No. Was he conscious of the fact that the Holy Spirit was speaking through him? Probably not.

He was just writing a letter. But if you look at old medieval pictures of a Biblical author writing, you will see the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, whispering into his ear.

Here is what the Second Vatican Council said about it, the most authoritative explanation for Catholics:

For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

And then it goes on to say:

everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit

and

God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

So: you put your finger on something true and valid, but you didn't quite get it right.

Stated baldly, God is the author of the Bible.

jack

15-01-08, 08:28 PM

what do you mean by analyze? you mean it's there indirectly and i have to come up with my conclusion that according to my reading i feel it's written there ? and which Bible or book to analyze ? do all of them mention it ?

satisfy my needs ? very odd answer to give.. i don't want to know which one is satisfying my needs jack, i want to know which one is the original God's words no matter what they are..

and regarding my intention, i asked this for two reasons:

to have enough knowledge about some real christianity which is very close to Islam and had almost the same messege of Islam, i've been in Australia and lived with a catholic family who put a version of Bible in my room, i took a look at it but my english was not that strong to understand the profound words written there since i was too young and beginner in english.

and the second reason, which i believe you think is my intention, is to remind you that your Bible is not credible and may be faulsed.. but i needed a confirmation straight from the horse mouth..so El-Ray ... ya thinking of converting ...?

Is that your intention?

Threadlike

15-01-08, 08:46 PM

Oh and regarding the thread...
I don't know what you're going for ElRey? Are you aiming at knowledge or proving Christianity wrong or what? Anyhow, that is irrelevant.

I think the Bible is a good read...And a nicely written one too. Even for a Muslim like myself. As Muslims we hold the belief that the Bible has been corrupted by human hands over time. It is therefore insensible to go hunting for evidence for your 'belief'.

marianna

15-01-08, 09:09 PM

What I find disrespectful is the belief that people think the bible is false. If that is so then doesn't it mean people who believe Jesus as a prophet is wrong? Jesus is found in the Christian bible and not anywhere else except in the Qu'ran.

All in all, when it is our time to depart this life we all will know the answers. Irregardless whether a person is a Jew, Christian or Muslim if we live our life with good intentions and believe in God with faith all will see paradise. Who are we to judge what God has given us in the end? We are humans, not anyone divine.

El Rey

15-01-08, 09:23 PM

El Rey

15-01-08, 09:28 PM

so El-Ray ... ya thinking of converting ...?

Is that your intention?

Oh and regarding the thread...
I don't know what you're going for ElRey? Are you aiming at knowledge or proving Christianity wrong or what? Anyhow, that is irrelevant.

I think the Bible is a good read...And a nicely written one too. Even for a Muslim like myself. As Muslims we hold the belief that the Bible has been corrupted by human hands over time. It is therefore insensible to go hunting for evidence for your 'belief'.

Guys, i asked a question and wanted a straight answer. please stop digging in personal intentions and going off topic. and NO jack i'll never convert to christianity and never to any other religion, am happy with Islam and i'll always thank God for making me a Muslim.

Threadlike: i don't know why but sometimes i think you are a christian as well.

Threadlike

15-01-08, 09:31 PM

^When you know why, make sure you tell me...
To declare that the Bible IS a good read is not delcaring that the Bible IS the word of God.
It's really simple to understand El.

IceTea

15-01-08, 09:34 PM

What I find disrespectful is the belief that people think the bible is false. If that is so then doesn't it mean people who believe Jesus as a prophet is wrong? Jesus is found in the Christian bible and not anywhere else except in the Qu'ran.

If Muslims don't believe that the Bible is corrupted then they can't be Muslims, you will ask why? Because one of the basics of being a true believer is the belief in the oneness of God, on the other hand Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate and believe in the Trinity, so that is according to Islam is associating partners with Allah or shirk.

Jesus or (prophet Issa pbuh) found in the Quran because he is a human being and prophet like other God prophets. Remember that the source of all scriptures is one, Torah, Injeel, zaboor & the Quran all being sent by God. So if the source is one then the message (believing in the oneness of Allah) is one or the same, common sense.

All in all, when it is our time to depart this life we all will know the answers. Irregardless whether a person is a Jew, Christian or Muslim if we live our life with good intentions and believe in God with faith all will see paradise. Who are we to judge what God has given us in the end? We are humans, not anyone divine.

A true believer is the one who believe in the oneness of God, the Trinity is against this concept. A believer should also believe in prophet Mohammed :PBUH:as a final messenger.

Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

El Rey

15-01-08, 09:37 PM

What I find disrespectful is the belief that people think the bible is false. If that is so then doesn't it mean people who believe Jesus as a prophet is wrong? Jesus is found in the Christian bible and not anywhere else except in the Qu'ran.

All in all, when it is our time to depart this life we all will know the answers. Irregardless whether a person is a Jew, Christian or Muslim if we live our life with good intentions and believe in God with faith all will see paradise. Who are we to judge what God has given us in the end? We are humans, not anyone divine.

again, i believe that the Bible is one and not false but in this time there are many different versions of the Bible and each one says something different from the other which tells us that only one is right and the rest is falsed.

now which one is right this is my question, if i want to read one which one do you guys advise me to read...

i don't know why you are taking it as offence and irrespect. we here discuss Islamic matters as well and we Muslims have different point of views.

IceTea

15-01-08, 09:41 PM

As Muslims we hold the belief that the Bible has been corrupted by human hands over time. It is therefore insensible to go hunting for evidence for your 'belief'.

Is it all corrupted?

I think we can say the things that doesn't contradict with the Quran is accepted. For example, I think it's mentioned in the Bible that eating pork is haram, etc. But things like the concept of the Trinity, incarnation, original sin, etc are rejected.

Jeff

15-01-08, 09:47 PM

again, i believe that the Bible is one and not false but in this time there are many different versions of the Bible and each one says something different from the other which tells us that only one is right and the rest is falsed.

now which one is right this is my question, if i want to read one which one do you guys advise me to read...

i don't know why you are taking it as offence and irrespect. we here discuss Islamic matters as well and we Muslims have different point of views.

I DON'T think you are doing anything disrespectful at all and I welcome all the questions. I answer mimo's question first because it was the last! :p

Then my response to Threadlike was in part a response to you. But now I'm going to answer your first paragraph or two..

Jeff

15-01-08, 10:02 PM

We know that there are many different versions of the Bible such as Skeptic's Annotated Bible, King James Bible, Parallel Bible etc etc etc...

my question is: are there many differences in each Bible in the stories told? the facts written in there ? if so, then how do you know that the Bible you have is the right one ? maybe it's faulsed..

My answer is this.

The different "versions" you mention in your first paragraph are really different TRANSLATIONS. Most of the time, they do not vary greatly. But sometimes they do. And this is true of translations of the Quran, too.

Most of the variations in the Bible texts involve tiny scribal errors or variants that make little or no difference. And in most cases, there are ten examples of the right one and one example of the wrong one, so you can tell what the genuine textual tradition is.

But there are a few important variants. Most modern Bible translations will have those variants in the footnotes, so you can compare.

If you are looking for a print translation, the best one is probably the Revised Standard, either in its Protestant or its Catholic version.

If you want to do straight online reading in English, this is adequate:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=1&version=31

That site also has a comparison feature so you can compare different translations of the verses, even including an Arabic one prepared by Christians. (If you want a Bible version in Arabic prepared by Muslims, Braiki might be able to help you...)

And additional reference tool is this modern Catholic translation, the New American Bible, which is easy to read, but has some problems in my opinion:

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

And the old, traditional English translation is the King James. The language is very beautiful, but old fashioned and sometimes hard to understand.

That's also available on the first website I gave you.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

King James

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

New International

13
5 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

New American

Have fun! :)

I will come back and deal with the other parts of the question later.

mimosa

15-01-08, 10:15 PM

Jeff

15-01-08, 10:21 PM

Jeff, it's not just the translation with the Bible. The Orthodox bible has several more books than yours, not just linguistic indiosyncracies. And the Protestants have several fewer books. I'm not making a value judgement here, and I know you believe that your church is the real one, and yours is the real Bible. But it is a fact that different Christian denominations use Bibles with different substantive content, not just different translations...isn't it?

Well, you see that the thread raises four or five distinct questions, right?

Most of them have a certain relationship to each other, but they are distinct.

Translations. Textual variants. Canonical variations between Christian groups.

All of these questions are legitimate, including that one.

But I can't answer them all at the same time! :p

It's a significant investment of time if I treat it seriously, which I want to do. So, I want to go step by step. Perhaps the rest tomorrow.

El Rey

15-01-08, 10:24 PM

My answer is this.

The different "versions" you mention in your first paragraph are really different TRANSLATIONS. Most of the time, they do not vary greatly. But sometimes they do. And this is true of translations of the Quran, too.

Most of the variations in the Bible texts involve tiny scribal errors or variants that make little or no difference. And in most cases, there are ten examples of the right one and one example of the wrong one, so you can tell what the genuine textual tradition is.

.

thanks alot jeff
just to correct this, we don't have translation for the quran but the meaning of the words in it, so it's conveying the same messege but in different language. while in the Bible, as you and some others mentioned, the translations vary and involve scribal errors which may lead in giving different meaning.

and to be specific, when you read the Bible are you 100% sure inside yourself that this is not false one ? don't you have some doubts? or it doesnt matter?!

take your time in answering the questions, and thanks again for clarifications

Jeff

15-01-08, 10:42 PM

I know Muslims say they don't have a translation of the Quran.

But to me that is just a difference of words. All translations vary from the original and it's impossible to be perfectly true to the intention of the original.

Still, most Muslims in the world cannot read Arabic. But they read their "interpretations" of the Quran. These "interpetations" must be accurate enough to convey the original idea, I think.

So, I don't see much difference.

I think I already answered about scribal differences in the Bible. There are many, but most of them are just tiny variations which are a matter of a scribe misreading or miscopying something.

There are a FEW larger differences. But even those are not important for the meaning of the Faith. But I'm going to discuss all that in more detail later, since it is a different question.

But the point is: All Bibles are basically the same, as far as texts are concerned (which books to include is a different issue). The idea that there are true ones and false ones doesn't correspond with the texts. That's why Christians don't worry about "Am I reading the true of false Bible?"

minerva

16-01-08, 01:11 AM

wudjab

16-01-08, 01:14 AM

Relax Minerva,

This is a debate that pops up every other month on the sabla. It must be a slow news day, considering all the borderline offensive anti-other-than-islam topics that have been opened in the last week.

BrAiKi

16-01-08, 01:21 AM

Please stick to the topic. This thread is about the Bible, not the Quraan, any member can open a different thread about that and I'll be glad to shift the posts regarding that topic there

marianna

16-01-08, 04:08 AM

why all the fuss about what book is right? they all teach good things no? there are many paths to salvation, towards God, so whatever you read, it's cool...it's the way you practice what you read that counts.

In that context..yes I believe wholeheartedly...:)

How you practice your beliefs...there are many salvations towards God and living a spiritual life, a good life helping others, making this world a better place in a selfless manner.

wudjab

16-01-08, 04:16 AM

What confuses me is why Muslims are so concerned that we apparently have a corrupted Holy Book.

As a Catholic I have no doubt my Scripture is genuine, but some bigots here (and I do not include the originator of this thread) pretend that they have a genuine academic interest in the subject.

IceTea

16-01-08, 08:26 AM

shamsery

16-01-08, 09:17 AM

Please stick to the topic. This thread is about the Bible, not the Quraan, any member can open a different thread about that and I'll be glad to shift the posts regarding that topic there

During discussion reference of various scriptures are obvious.
Do you ask the member to interpret the verse of The Bible here?
The question Which Bible is right? answer and argument may travel in very big parameter.
Reference Quran, The then social cultural linguistic history and development may cover the discussion.

shamsery

16-01-08, 09:21 AM

The other name of the Bible is Injjil , to the Muslims, so it is an amalgamate issue.

shamsery

16-01-08, 09:31 AM

The Quraan mentioned the Gospel, not the bible.
Injeel means Gospel in english, which mean good news

Please quote the verse with number from The Holly Qur’an for our knowledge shake in support of your comment.

shamsery

16-01-08, 09:40 AM

The reason why there are so many versions of the Bible is because they are translations. Just like the translations that we got of the Quraan, for example we got yousuf ali's translation, picktall's translation, etc.now which of those translations is right? Thats similar to the question that you're asking.
now to answer that question, no one can tell, because at the end they're just translations.

Are those translations contradicted with the fundamental theme of The Holy Qur’an?
Are those translations contradicted with the number of Ayats of The Holly Qur’an?
To the best of my knowledge such analysis is misleading and undesirable.

IceTea

16-01-08, 09:55 AM

Please quote the verse with number from The Holly Qur’an for our knowledge shake in support of your comment.

Check verses [5:110] & [4:163] for example.In the Quran mentioned Torah, Injeel (Gospel) & Zaboor.

shamsery

16-01-08, 10:17 AM

Check verses [5:110] & [4:163] for example.In the Quran mentioned Torah, Injeel (Gospel) & Zaboor.

Are right or wrong if you quote reference from The Holly Qur’an during the discussion this particular thread?

IceTea

16-01-08, 10:20 AM

Are right or wrong if you quote reference from The Holly Qur’an during the discussion this particular thread?

Nothing wrong about it because the Holy Quran contains the truth about previouse scriptures.

shamsery

16-01-08, 10:33 AM

Nothing wrong about it because the Holy Quran contains the truth about previouse scriptures.

So you can bring reference from the Holy Qur’an .
Did you notice some one asked to stick on The Bible only?
Based on the existing “The Bible” only , can you proceed further?
Don’t you think quoting from the Holy Qur’an to meet the answer of your question is irrelevant?

Threadlike

16-01-08, 01:14 PM

What confuses me is why Muslims are so concerned that we apparently have a corrupted Holy Book.

Why confused?
You don't believe in the Qura'n, right?
You don't believe in Mohammed PBUH, right?
So why should we believe in the complete and absolute truth of the Bible? We believe it was revealed from Allah SWT but we do not believe it is as it was. The Qura'n does not say, ALL Christians 'corrupted' or altered the Bible but that SOME of the weak-hearted had done so. This is plainly the Islamic view of the Bible. It is not what I thought up in a day or two, but (to me) it adds up easily. The view of the Qura'n is that since it is the last revelation it is protected from all alteration...And will thus remain as it was.

I would love to contribute to whichever thread you are going to open about the 'history of the Qura'n' if you're going to open one.

IceTea

16-01-08, 01:25 PM

Becuase it's your duty as a muslim to tell them the truth and their right to know the truth. There are many Christians who know nothing about Islam & the holy Quran.

Threadlike

16-01-08, 01:29 PM

shamsery

16-01-08, 03:44 PM

What confuses me is why Muslims are so concerned that we apparently have a corrupted Holy Book.

Why confused?

May be due to lack of knowledge.
If you are a Christian ignore the question or if you a good Christian, prove your Holy scripture is unaltered.
This is an opportunity to remove misconception of MUSLIM and many others.
Go ahead and enlighten them .

shamsery

16-01-08, 04:00 PM

So why should we believe in the complete and absolute truth of the Bible? We believe it was revealed from Allah SWT but we do not believe it is as it was. The Qura'n does not say, ALL Christians 'corrupted' or altered the Bible but that SOME of the weak-hearted had done so. This is plainly the Islamic view of the Bible.

Question is this why and what ground you do not believe The Holy Bible?

2nd Any proof ?

Markov

16-01-08, 04:04 PM

Makes me wonder if I should remain a member.

Pls do, your posts are interesting.

IceTea

16-01-08, 04:12 PM

The Qura'n does not say, ALL Christians 'corrupted' or altered the Bible but that SOME of the weak-hearted had done so. This is plainly the Islamic view of the Bible

The issue here is not who corrupted the Bible, that has been done in the past and those nations already gone. Now the issue is does today Christians follow the true message revealed to prophet Issa pbuh or not, in other words is there any Christian today does not believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God or son of God.

This ummah is prophet Mohammed :PBUH:ummah, so all should follow the last messanger as Allah has sent him as a mercy to ALL mankind.

shamsery

16-01-08, 04:18 PM

The truth to me is different from the truth others believe in.

Should we discuss the falsehood of both of our sides and thus stay arguing for forever, or simply try to reach a common ground?

The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

’Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are
best and most gracious.’
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]

Jeff

16-01-08, 04:28 PM

^Dunno what that exactly means by the way.
Where did I say that it's not 'my duty' to tell them the truth and that it's not 'their right' to know the truth?

The truth to me is different from the truth others believe in.
And we all believe in what we believe in 100%.
Should we discuss the falsehood of both of our sides and thus stay arguing for forever, or simply try to reach a common ground?

See, I also see this message in the Quran.

Nothing wrong with debating. Nothing wrong with talking about your Islamic beliefs to enlighten others, as you understand it.

But Threadlike is doing what some of the "debaters" won't do...something other than arguing. He is seeking a "common word" and trying to deepen it.

That takes maturity. And that seems to me to be the Islamic way.

Threadlike

16-01-08, 04:29 PM

Question is this why and what ground you do not believe The Holy Bible?

2nd Any proof ?

I do not believe in many parts of the Bible and I do not believe it is the absolute truth nor that it is what it originally was. I do not believe in the concept that God is in three persons simply because I believe that God exists in one person and form only. I do not believe that Jesus PBUH was put on the cross. All these events are documented in the Bible. Unlike many other Muslims, I refuse to cherry-pick verses of the Bible to support my argument.

Regarding your second question...
Verse 3:71 (71st verse of Surat Al Imran):
Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
Tafseer from Tafseer al Jalalyn:
O People of the Scripture! Why do you confound, [why do] you mix, truth with falsehood, by distorting and falsifying [scripture], and conceal the truth, the descriptions of the Prophet, while you know?, that it is the truth?

However, the Qura'n praises many Christians and Jews too, the People of the Book. In verses 75 and 76 of the same verse Allah SWT promises those who are pious of the people of the book their reward:
75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.
76. Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright.
The tafseer of the verses from Tafseer al Jalalyn:
75:And of the People of the Scripture is he who, if you trust him with a hundredweight, that is, with much money, he will return it to you, on account of his trustworthiness, the like of ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām to whom a man entrusted 1200 plates of gold, which he then returned to him; and of them is he who, if you trust him with one dinar, will not return it to you, on account of his treachery; unless you keep standing over him, not leaving him for one minute, for as soon as you leave him, he will deny it, as was the case with Ka‘b b. al-Ashraf, to whom a man from Quraysh entrusted a dinar and later denied it. That, refusal to return things, is because they say, ‘We have no duty towards, namely, [no possibility of acquiring] sin because of, the Gentiles’, the Arabs; for they considered it lawful to be unjust towards any person of a different religion, and they attributed [the source of] this conviction to God, exalted be He. God, exalted be He, says, They speak falsehood against God, by attributing such things to Him, while they are aware, that they are liars.
76: Nay, there is a duty incumbent over them in this regard; but whoever fulfils his covenant, the one he has made or the covenant of God, by restoring a trust and other such things, and has fear, of God, by refraining from disobedience and performing deeds of obedience, for truly God loves the God-fearing: ‘He loves them’ means that He will reward them (the overt noun [al-muttaqīn, ‘the God-fearing’] has replaced the [third person] pronominalisation).

I did not want to go through all this really.
But you made me. So I had to.

Shai

16-01-08, 04:33 PM

Icetea you need to accept JESUS CHRIST your LORD AND SAVIOUR who died for YOUR SINS

Accept HIM into your heart for only HE can save you from eternal damnation

There is still time for you to return to God.

IceTea

16-01-08, 04:36 PM

However, the Qura'n praises many Christians and Jews too, the People of the Book. In verses 75 and 76 of the same verse Allah SWT promises those who are pious of the people of the book their reward:

Do you think the Quran praises Christains who believe in the Trinity?

Threadlike

16-01-08, 04:37 PM

Shams, the Qura'n also says in verse 3:64:
"Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah. that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will)."

And the tafseer from Tafseer al Jalalyn:
"Say: ‘O People of the Scripture!, Jews and Christians, come now to a word agreed upon (sawā’, is the verbal noun, meaning mustawin amruhā, ‘[a word] regarding which the matter is upright’) between us and you, and it is, that we worship none but God (allā is [made up of] an-lā, ‘that…not’) and that we do not associate anything with Him, and do not take each other for lords, beside God’, as you have taken rabbis and monks; and if they turn their backs, in rejection of God’s Oneness, say, you to them: ‘Bear witness that we have submitted’, [that we are of] those who affirm the Oneness of God."

Threadlike

16-01-08, 04:39 PM

wudjab

16-01-08, 04:40 PM

Why confused?
You don't believe in the Qura'n, right?
You don't believe in Mohammed PBUH, right?...
.

You misunderstand me.

I don't believe in the Quran and Mohammed.
You don't believe in the Bible.

Which is what is expected from a Christian and Muslim.

I am confused as to WHY you care concerned about it.

I don't waste my time thinking about why Muslims follow, to me, what is a mishmash of previous religious texts.

IceTea

16-01-08, 04:46 PM

I think the tense is obvious from the verse.
"Among the People of the Book are some who"

It doesn't say 'Among the people of the book WERE some who'.
But of course now we will go into an endless discussion...That we have had before.

So these 'some' Christians believe in what exactly?

Do they believe in the oneness of God?

Do they believe Jesus is God or human being?

Jeff

16-01-08, 04:51 PM

All Christians believe in the oneness of God.

Polytheists believe in MANY gods. Even if they believe in a Great God, they also believe in lesser gods.

Christians believe that there is only one God. We set up none beside Him. But we say that deep in His Nature, He is also Three. That's how He is to Himself.

That could be wrong. Or it could be illogical. But it's not the same as believing in many gods. We are not saying that there are partners to God. We are saying that God IS parters for Himself.

We proudly proclaim with Moses: "Hear O Israel! The Lord your God, the Lord is ONE!"

As far as Jesus is concerned, we believe that Jesus is not a God beside God, or another God. Pagans said that humans were ALSO gods besides the gods in Heaven.

We worship Jesus only because we believe that He IS that SAME God Who is the ONLY God.

Again, that could be wrong or illogical. But it isn't the same as setting up partners to God.

So, I insist that it is possible for a Muslim to believe that we are making a mistake, being wrong and illogical. But that we still worship the One God.

Threadlike and Braiki and others are free to disagree with you, Ice Tea.

IceTea

16-01-08, 04:52 PM

You misunderstand me.

I don't believe in the Quran and Mohammed.
You don't believe in the Bible.

Which is what is expected from a Christian and Muslim.

I am confused as to WHY you care concerned about it.

I don't waste my time thinking about why Muslims follow, to me, what is a mishmash of previous religious texts.

At Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: time there were Christians who followed the truth, do you think you know better than those Christians?

And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.

"And why should we not believe in Allâh and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islâmic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them))"

So because of what they said, Allâh rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers).

Threadlike, I think the Quran refers to those people who are praised not people who reject the truth.

wudjab

16-01-08, 04:52 PM

Tea,

Let me break it to you gently.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are not a Christian.

No use busting your whatever trying to prove otherwise.

wudjab

16-01-08, 04:54 PM

At Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: time there were Christians who followed the truth, do you think you know better than those Christians?

And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.

"And why should we not believe in Allâh and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islâmic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them))"

So because of what they said, Allâh rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers).

Threadlike, I think the Quran refers to those people who are praised not people who reject the truth.

Hmm.. so these were apparently Christians who believe in Mohammed.

That would make them...

wait for it...

M U S L I M S.

IceTea

16-01-08, 04:55 PM

Jeff, You can't believe in the oneness of God while you believe in the Trinity also. Contradiction!

Shai

16-01-08, 04:56 PM

http://i6.tinypic.com/86ee720.gif

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0100/0100_01.asp

IceTea

16-01-08, 04:57 PM

Hmm.. so these were apparently Christians who believe in Mohammed.

That would make them...

wait for it...

M U S L I M S.

Prophet Issa pbuh was a muslim too.

Jeff

16-01-08, 04:58 PM

Jeff, You can't believe in the oneness of God while you believe in the Trinity also. Contradiction!

Well, I just showed you how I can believe it. And I've shown you before, many times.

I think it's not a contradiction. But even if it is, all it shows is that I am being illogical. Lots of people are illogical. Maybe even most people.

But my point is: I do NOT believe in Three Gods. I believe in only One God.

My faith tell me that if I believe in Three Gods, I will go to Hell.

IceTea

16-01-08, 05:13 PM

Well, I just showed you how I can believe it. And I've shown you before, many times.

I think it's not a contradiction. But even if it is, all it shows is that I am being illogical. Lots of people are illogical. Maybe even most people.

But my point is: I do NOT believe in Three Gods. I believe in only One God.

My faith tell me that if I believe in Three Gods, I will go to Hell.

Did Jesus said to his people 'worship me'?

ONE God in 3 persons is not ONE God and contradicts with the oneness of God.

Threadlike

16-01-08, 05:34 PM

Ice, all I personally care about is the part 'one God'. Jews, Christians and Muslims are MONOTHEISTS. ONE GOD WORSHIPPERS.

I am confused as to WHY you care concerned about it.

Personally it's not like I'm obsecced about it. I don't think it is a FUDAMENTAL part of Muslim faith but it is a part of faith nevertheless. Apparently ElRey here wanted to read the Bible and couldn't figure out what was the best possible translation so he made this thread. And then it spun off (as expected) into a tangled web of question and discussion.

IceTea, with all do respect, what you 'think' is not comparable much to the word of the Qura'n. And the word of Qura'n is clear. If you're Christian or Jewish and you are honest and pious and your worship ONE GOD and ONE GOD ONLY you HAVE YOUR REWARD. I'm not aware of the nature of the reward, only Allah knows, but you will have your reward as per Islam. And this is not from my personal opinion or out of friendship with Christians but out of the Holy Qura'n.

READ verse 2:62. READ verse 3:75 and 3:76 of the Holy Qura'n and you will see that the Qura'n (unlike you) does not paint all people of the book in one brush.

Shai

16-01-08, 05:39 PM

http://i15.tinypic.com/8au0y6g.gif

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp

IceTea

16-01-08, 05:47 PM

Threadlike, is it ok to believe in ONE God while you believe Jesus is God also?

Threadlike

16-01-08, 05:50 PM

IceTea, did you read my very first sentence in my previous post?
Good.
Absorb it fully. Got the answer to your question?

IceTea

16-01-08, 05:54 PM

That question based on your sentence.

Now give your answer, yes or no!

Threadlike

16-01-08, 05:58 PM

How could I give my answer?
Am I a Christian? I said that I KNOW Christians worship one God. Period.

Futhermore, this thread is meant to talk about BIBLES...Not about Christian theology. You and I are way off-topic. And we have discussed this matter a lot. We have found out we did not agree. It's time you get over the fact that if I don't agree with you, it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily a worse Muslim than you are.

^That was in my heart, so I had to get it out!

IceTea

16-01-08, 05:59 PM

You are a muslim, you don't have to be a Christian to answer it.

Jeff

16-01-08, 06:09 PM

Did Jesus said to his people 'worship me'?

ONE God in 3 persons is not ONE God and contradicts with the oneness of God.

Part One:

Jesus: "Philip, all this time you have spent with Me and still you don't know Who I AM?" "My sheep know me. They hear My Voice and they follow Me."

Answer: If you have ears to hear, you will know Who He is. It's only unclear if you are not Listening.

All of this may be a great head-frowning puzzle about texts to you. It's not a puzzle for us.

Part Two:

There is no God but God. No OTHER God. God is One. That's the Oneness of God.

Repeating that God cannot be Three also and that it's a contradiction doesn't prove anything. Either you are wrong or you are right. If you are right, all it proves, as I said, is that we are illogical or confused. Not that we don't believe in One God.

It's an argument about what God is LIKE. It is not an argument about How Many Gods there ARE.

That's is what you are not getting.

That is what Threadlike understands.

wudjab

16-01-08, 06:12 PM

TL,

My comment about 'concern' was more addressed towards our favourite beverage and our bangladeshi friend.

IceTea

16-01-08, 06:19 PM

Part One:

Jesus: "Philip, all this time you have spent with Me and still you don't know Who I AM?" "My sheep know me. They hear My Voice and they follow Me."

Answer: If you have ears to hear, you will know Who He is. It's only unclear if you are not Listening.

All of this may be a great head-frowning puzzle about texts to you. It's not a puzzle for us.

Part Two:

There is no God but God. No OTHER God. God is One. That's the Oneness of God.

Repeating that God cannot be Three also and that it's a contradiction doesn't prove anything. Either you are wrong or you are right. If you are right, all it proves, as I said, is that we are illogical or confused. Not that we don't believe in One God.

It's an argument about what God is LIKE. It is not an argument about How Many Gods there ARE.

That's is what you are not getting.

That is what Threadlike understands.

Jeff, you didn't answer the question yet, did Jesus said 'worship me'?

"If you are right, all it proves, as I said, is that we are illogical or confused. Not that we don't believe in One God."

That means you are basing your belief on assumptions.

You keep on repeating that you believe in ONE God while at the same time you believe Jesus (who is a human being) is God. That is not oneness of God.

Superbia

16-01-08, 06:24 PM

marianna

16-01-08, 06:26 PM

I don't know why people put human limitations on God (what I think separates Christians from Muslims and Jews--because we Christians believe God is all powerful and can do anything & therefore have three in one). God is all knowing all seeing---even if that means believing in the holy concept of the Trinity.

I believe in God as being God, the Holy Spirit and Man because God is Divine and has powers that are beyond human comprehension so if people want to say how I believe is illogical then fine. I know in my heart and soul that I feel I am right and as long as I live a decent life then I will go to Heaven once I pass judgement. As far as all these different books, I believe in the scriptures the way I was taught through my Catholic faith and at 39 I don't think anyone can cause me to waiver in my own chosen path.

wudjab

16-01-08, 06:31 PM

One question to you lot, since your discussing the topic already.

In the Bible, I've heard that it states two different matters that contradicts with one another.

1- Jesus is God.
2- Jesus is a prophet from God.

If that is so, which one do Christians believe?

:os

I have heard Islam is supposed to be the religion of peace, yet at the same time, you, a muslim made this comment on another thread :

He's a bum! If I was a UAE'an citizen and he happened to be infront of me, I'd go right upto him and shoot him on his forhead! :bored:

This contradicts with peace.

1. Islam is a Religion of Peace
2. Islam is not a Religion of Peace.

If that is so, which one do muslims believe ?

IceTea

16-01-08, 06:31 PM

marianna, the orignal message in the Bible has been changed over time.

Use common sense:

If God is one ==> the message is one (i.e. the same).

Since the Quran is the true word of God and never changed since revealed to Prophet Mohammed pbuh then you should confirm your current beleif with the concept of true God stated in the holy Quran.

marianna

16-01-08, 06:33 PM

Thank you but never mind. I don't believe in God as having limitations.

God is one and I will not believe God has human limitations set upon Him. you believe the way you do and I will believe the way I do. Trust me, no one can show me another path. I am walking the right one for myself and I am using common sense because God showed His power through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Again, to place human limitations and human logic on God is doing a disservice to Him who is great and almighty.

If some of you have questions about Christianity and our bible then the BEST thing is to talk to a priest or Christian theologian. They are some of the best resources for obtaining the most complete answers without getting involved emotionally like some of us who are Christians here are starting to get.

Superbia

16-01-08, 06:34 PM

Wudjab, I did not literally mean it. But incase you havn't realized, people say a lot due to rage. I'm sure if it was the other way around, you'd say somethin a lot worse, since your known to be very aggresive and diffensive when it comes to religion :rolleyes:
If you can't answer the question I've asked, simply avoid it ;)

wudjab

16-01-08, 06:39 PM

No, I'm not prone to threaten to murder people, no matter what the provocation.

My religion preaces peace and I follow it.

IceTea

16-01-08, 06:42 PM

You are placing limitations on God by believing in the concept of incarnation. You have limited God inside the womb of Mary by such belief.

IceTea

16-01-08, 06:43 PM

Superbia, the truth is 2 but Chrsitains believe in 1.

Superbia

16-01-08, 06:47 PM

Oh man this is so complex! I got the whole 2 God's thing, but how does the 'holy spirit' come in the picture? :os God the father and God the son may make sense, but the 'holy spirit' just doesn't click. :os

marianna

16-01-08, 06:47 PM

If God can do anything he can be placed in a womb of a woman and he can also be reincarnated because like I said, God does not abide by the physical limitations of any law. Anyway, you are Muslim and I am Christian and we both have vastly different views in regards to certain areas of faith and I respect yours because I don't attack it. I feel like my faith is being attacked when I am "told"my belief in the concept of God is plainly wrong then it is being attacked.

All in all best wishes and I hope someone here provides answers you are seeking and if not like I said, there are individuals out there who specialize in Christian theology who can better answer your questions but like me they will believe God is capable of being and doing anything. Human physics does not apply to the Almighty.

Jeff

16-01-08, 06:50 PM

Jeff, you didn't answer the question yet, did Jesus said 'worship me'?

"If you are right, all it proves, as I said, is that we are illogical or confused. Not that we don't believe in One God."

That means you are basing your belief on assumptions.

You keep on repeating that you believe in ONE God while at the same time you believe Jesus (who is a human being) is God. That is not oneness of God.

You say God didn't become a Man.

But if He DID become a Man, then worshipping THAT MAN would not contradict the Oneness of God.

Again, this is something that Threadlike and many other Muslims seem to understand. But not you.

It's one thing to say: You are making a mistake and offering worship to a Man who is not God. It is another to say: If you think God became a Man, you don't believe in One God.

The first is reasonable. The second is unreasonable.

I am not basing my belief on assumptions. I am basing my belief on Revelation. But when I discuss with YOU, who are not a Believer, you often bring up the question of Logic. I am discussing: Is it logical to say that you can believe in the Trinity and still believe in One God. Yes, it is logical, even if the Trinity is wrong.

***

My point is, Jesus does not say in the Bible, "Worship me." But Jesus teaches most often by guiding, by causing you to REALIZE and UNDERSTAND rather than blunt statements. That's why He says to Philip, "You have been with me all this time and you still don't know Who I AM?" He expects Philip to understand without being told.

And He says He speaks in parables, so that those who have Understanding will understand. Those who refuse Understanding will remain deaf.

Jesus certainly ACCEPTED worship. After the Resurrection, He appears to Thomas, who doubted that He had risen. Thomas said, "I will never believe it unless I can put my hand in his wounded side and my fingers in the nail prints on his hands".

Then when Jesus comes to Thomas He says, "Put your hands in my side and your fingers in my hands." And Thomas replies, "My Lord and my God."

And Jesus says the Apostles teach in His Name. "He who hears you, hears Me." The Apostle teach that Jesus is to be worshipped: "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD!"

Paul said it; so Jesus said it. And the Church built on the Apostles and teaching with their authority says it. So Jesus says it.

And Jesus says not like a Prophet, "Go to God and He will give you peace!"

Jesus says, "Come to Me, all you who are tired and carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest."

Me. I.

Not God.

It's easy to see Who the Jesus of the Bible is. If you are looking, instead of arguing.

But what does all this have to do with Bible versions? :o

Jeff

16-01-08, 06:55 PM

Human physics does not apply to the Almighty.

There you go! A simple and profound truth too often ignored in these discussions.

God is not a THING. He can be as close as your jugular vein, as the Muslims say. And He can be in Heaven at the same time. He is Everywhere at the same time.

"But that's not logical!"

And He can be One and also Three.

But I think it's time to be disciplined and try to get closer to the subject of the thread.

So, I will leave the discussions of Trinity and Incarnation and Oneness to another time.

El Rey

16-01-08, 07:15 PM

Christians believe that there is only one God. We set up none beside Him. But we say that deep in His Nature, He is also Three. That's how He is to Himself.

.

sorry jeff but this's confusing, how can He be one and three at the same time? it's either one or three

If God can do anything he can be placed in a womb of a woman and he can also be reincarnated

so in the Bible, Jesus is a God not a prophet ? and if he's a God why did he let them cross Him and why Did He leave and didnt stay till now ?

marianna

16-01-08, 07:18 PM

Jesus died on the cross to show Man that he can be forgiven of his sins. Jesus is part of the Trinity and therefore part of the concept of what God is. Again, if you are really interested in learning more about the Christian faith you can always find a priest to talk to. I am sure they would be more than happy to discuss these matters.

El Rey

16-01-08, 08:35 PM

Jesus died on the cross to show Man that he can be forgiven of his sins. Jesus is part of the Trinity and therefore part of the concept of what God is. .

so Jesus died
Jesus is a God
this means that God Died?
God was killed by the people whom He created ?
so there is no God now ?!! or part of the Trinity died?

am really confused and sorry marianna i am Omani we have no priests here to ask so i laid my questions here hopefully to get some answers.

marianna

16-01-08, 08:38 PM

Again you are placing human conditions on a God who is all powerful.

There is one church in Oman that I know of, I believe not too far from the capital. Also there are internet sites you can go to that are Christian based and have theologians who can answer your questions.

wudjab

16-01-08, 08:41 PM

marianna

16-01-08, 08:41 PM

Obviously you do have priests in Oman (and you can even visit them and ask questions or even email) here I did your leg work for you:

SULTANATE OF OMAN

Sohar
ST. ANTHONY'S CHURCH
P.O. Box 842, Sohar 311
Sultanate of Oman
TEL: 00968 841396
FAX: 00968 844469
E-Mail: stantoni@omantel.net.om

Ghala (Muscat)

HOLY SPIRIT CHURCH
P.O. Box 371,
Madinat Qaboos 115
TEL: 00968 24 590373 and
00968 24 594656
FAX: 00968 24 502513
WEB-SITE: http://holyspiritchurchoman.org

Ruwi (Muscat)
STS. PETER & PAUL CHURCH
P.O. Box 613, Ruwi 112
Sultanate of Oman
TEL: 00968 701893
FAX: 00968 788840

Salalah

ST. FRANCIS XAVIER'S CHURCH
P.O. Box 1405, Salalah 211
Sultanate of Oman
TEL: 00968 235727
FAX: 00968 235787
E-Mail: gusant@omantel.net.om

Jeff

16-01-08, 09:15 PM

sorry jeff but this's confusing, how can He be one and three at the same time? it's either one or three

so in the Bible, Jesus is a God not a prophet ? and if he's a God why did he let them cross Him and why Did He leave and didnt stay till now ?

Yes, it's confusing. No, it isn't necessarily one or the other.

OBJECTS must be in only one place at a time. GOD can be in more than one place at a time because He is not an object.

We have limited brains and we have ideas about ourselves in our brains. El Rey has an idea of El Rey in his brain.

God has an Idea of Himself too. He thinks of Himself and looks at Himself. But whereas our ideas are just concepts, God's Idea of Himself is: Another Self. When you think of yourself, your thought is only a thought.

But God's Ideas are real. When God thinks of Himself, His Thought is real, not just a thought. And God expresses Love and Communication with His Infinite Idea of Himself. This is the Holy Spirit.

All this is within God and part of His Infinite Perfection.

Mysterious? Yes. Illogical or impossible? No. For a Limited Material creature: Impossible. For God, an Infinite and Immaterial Being: Not at all impossible.

When scientists tell us that straight lines in space are really curved, or that you can leave earth and return to it two years later and a hundred years have passed, or that light is a wave, but also a particle we say, "Very odd! Seems contradictory!" But we still accept it because we know that life and reality are very odd.

**

God came to die on the Cross so that sin would lose its power over mankind. That has many meanings. It means that He set us the perfect example of obedikence and we can see how it should done. It means that we see that if God Himself will submit to suffer in obedience, we can find the strength to follow Him no matter where it leads also. It means that when we accept His perfect offering of obedience as a Man, we join ourselves to it and our imperfections are washed away.

It means that God, like a Father, came down to cure us of the poison of sin. And since we were under the power of sin and the power of death, He had to defeat the poison of death from INSIDE. He did it FOR us by doing it WITH us.

It means that God changes us not by instructing us from on high. We had lost the power to follow those instructions. It means that God changes us by leading us, as one of us. It means that even though we make God our enemy, He insists on being our friend.

Imagine you betrayed your King. And you became a bad person inside, full of hate and fear. And you travelled to another Kingdom.

There the Evil King of your new Kingdom put you in prison. He had power over you because you submitted yourself to him. You were in despair because you could not escape. Your soul was full of poison. And you hated your old King and resented him because you wanted to be King yourself and He had refused it to you. But you also hated your new life and wanted to be delivered from it somehow.

One day, you old King comes to visit you in prison. "El Rey", He says. "I remember all you did to me. I know you hate me and you cannot change yourself. And I know you cannot escape your New Evil King. You have given him power over you and it has poisoned you. I cannot cancel what you have done because I gave you freedom to make of yourself what you wished. And this is what you have done with my gift."

"But I love you and I want to deliver you. I cannot cancel out your punishment. You deserve your punishment and it has become a disease of your deepest soul. You have given the Evil King power over you."

"But I will give myself to the Evil King in your place. Let Him do whatever He likes with Me. Then the Evil King must let you go."

So, your King submits Himself to the Evil New King. And the Evil New King is delighted with the exchange! He tortures and kills your old King in your place while you watch.

And that fills your soul with Love and gives you the power to Love in return. Your heart and soul are changed forever. You are free. You are cured.

And then your old King returns to your cell and opens the door. "You are delivered. Come into my Home and share it with me Forever."

"But you were dead!", you say. "I saw them kill you!"

"Indeed they did. But I am the True King and Death and Sin have no power over me. But when I submitted myself to them, even though they were strangers to me, I destroyed them for you forever. I have introduced my Life and Love into your poisoned soul. And as long as you keep me before you and keep me close to you, you will never die. You will still suffer as a result of what you did to yourself. But instead of poisoning you, your sufferings will cure you, if you only remember me. And even when you don't see me, you will know that I am with you in every suffering, bearing it also. Because that is Who I Am."

If you can understand this story, then you will understand Christianity. If you cannot, you will not understand us.

***

He did stay with us. He is still here among us. "And behold, I am with you even until the end of Time." "Whereever two or three of you are gathered together, there am I among you."

***

Now, what is this thread about? I don't want to talk about every question under the sun, only to have the mods erase everything.

El Rey, if you want this to be a general thread about Christianity and Its Problems, I am happy. But why don't you make a thread like that then?

I don't want to make a thread to teach Christian doctrine because I feel it is not right on the Sabla, which is a Muslim place where I am a guest. It's not my place to be a missionary here.

But I am happy to answer questions that Muslims want to ask.

You are new on Sabla and maybe you don't know: the Mods are sometimes strict about sticking to the topic. Guess how long it took me to answer your questions? Can you imagine? :p

I hate to see it maybe erased before you can even read it!

IceTea

16-01-08, 09:15 PM

You say God didn't become a Man.

But if He DID become a Man, then worshipping THAT MAN would not contradict the Oneness of God.

Saying if means you are not sure and it's only assumption. Second thing how can a man worship another man if you say God is man?

I am not basing my belief on assumptions. I am basing my belief on Revelation. But when I discuss with YOU, who are not a Believer, you often bring up the question of Logic. I am discussing: Is it logical to say that you can believe in the Trinity and still believe in One God. Yes, it is logical, even if the Trinity is wrong.

The Bible written many years after Jesus death and many things added to it so it can't be taken as accurate source of Revelation.

The oneness and the Trinity God can't be together.

My point is, Jesus does not say in the Bible, "Worship me."

So Jesus didn't say 'worship me' but Christians worship him. If he is really God he will say it clearly but that proves he is not God just normal human being son of Mary.

IceTea

16-01-08, 09:20 PM

Jeff

16-01-08, 09:23 PM

so Jesus died
Jesus is a God
this means that God Died?
God was killed by the people whom He created ?
so there is no God now ?!! or part of the Trinity died?

am really confused and sorry marianna i am Omani we have no priests here to ask so i laid my questions here hopefully to get some answers.

I don't mind your asking and I will take all the time you need to give you answers.

"Always be prepared to give reasons for the Hope that is in you," says the Bible.

Not all Muslims are good at answering questions about Islam. Not all Christians are good at answering questions about Christianity.

Alhamdulillah, I am good at answering questions, inshallah! :p

My only problem is: the mods and the title of the thread.

Jeff

16-01-08, 09:24 PM

So now Christians should nail themselves on a cross to be forgiven?

No. But Christians should bear the sufferings that God sends them and join them to the Great Suffering so that they will be fruitful as His was fruitful.

wudjab

16-01-08, 09:40 PM

So now Christians should nail themselves on a cross to be forgiven?

Lets all say a prayer for the simple minded ?

marianna

16-01-08, 09:44 PM

Thalia

16-01-08, 09:48 PM

To say Christians should nail themselves to a cross to be Christian is doing a blatant disservice to those of us regarding this faith. Now if one of us attacked Islam would you not be angry? Would you not be trying to explain to a non-believer your faith? That is what Jeff has tried and his posts show how much work and effort he put into it so to throw out a comment in regards to having Christians nailing ourselves to a cross is oversimplifying everything Christianity stands for and for what we believe Jesus did for humankind.
You are really mild when you say it's a disservice.

I think his comment is outrightly offensive. Purposefully. Especially seeing how many lengths Jeff goes through to explain.

El Rey

16-01-08, 09:50 PM

Yes, it's confusing. No, it isn't necessarily one or the other.

**

God came to die on the Cross so that sin would lose its power over mankind.
"But I will give myself to the Evil King in your place. Let Him do whatever He likes with Me. Then the Evil King must let you go."

So, your King submits Himself to the Evil New King. And the Evil New King is delighted with the exchange! He tortures and kills your old King in your place while you watch.

!

i really apreciate your effort in answering the questions jeff and i don't mind the Mods change the title to suit the discusion.

now regarding what you said and the first highlighted line. if God died so the sins will lose its pwer over mankind then we won't see anyone committing sins till this time otherwise God failed in his intention ( as you already mentioned ).

the story you brought there is so interesting but if God suffers to save the man and clean him from sins then this means he's weak, and we all know that Almighty God is waaay and way from weakness.

and also this means that there is no purpose for hell too since God created it for the sinners and disbelievers

thanks marianna for the links and help.

IceTea

16-01-08, 09:52 PM

No. But Christians should bear the sufferings that God sends them and join them to the Great Suffering so that they will be fruitful as His was fruitful.

What does that suppose to mean?

Jeff

16-01-08, 09:54 PM

What does that suppose to mean?

Why not move the discussion here:

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1004952&posted=1#post1004952

We can keep this thread as a place for discussing Bible variations....

Jeff

16-01-08, 09:55 PM

i really apreciate your effort in answering the questions jeff and i don't mind the Mods change the title to suit the discusion.

now regarding what you said and the first highlighted line. if God died so the sins will lose its pwer over mankind then we won't see anyone committing sins till this time otherwise God failed in his intention ( as you already mentioned ).

the story you brought there is so interesting but if God suffers to save the man and clean him from sins then this means he's weak, and we all know that Almighty God is waaay and way from weakness.

and also this means that there is no purpose for hell too since God created it for the sinners and disbelievers

thanks marianna for the links and help.

Why not ask the question on Thalia's new thread. But just remember, I can give you a lot of time and I am happy to do so. But sometimes, I have to live life! :p So be patient if I go away and come back.

Also I can't ignore other parts of Sabla life! :)

BrAiKi

16-01-08, 09:56 PM

During discussion reference of various scriptures are obvious.
Do you ask the member to interpret the verse of The Bible here?
The question Which Bible is right? answer and argument may travel in very big parameter.
Reference Quran, The then social cultural linguistic history and development may cover the discussion.

yes it is a very big question with big parameters, but you shouldn't change the topic and start discussing the Quraan here right?
Compare and contrast is okay, but getting deeper into comparison and deviating to another topic is not okay :)
I thank

IceTea

16-01-08, 09:56 PM

To say Christians should nail themselves to a cross to be Christian is doing a blatant disservice to those of us regarding this faith. Now if one of us attacked Islam would you not be angry? Would you not be trying to explain to a non-believer your faith? That is what Jeff has tried and his posts show how much work and effort he put into it so to throw out a comment in regards to having Christians nailing ourselves to a cross is oversimplifying everything Christianity stands for and for what we believe Jesus did for humankind.

There was no attack but that is what I understood by your previous post.

Jesus died on the cross to show Man that he can be forgiven of his sins

How about Man before Jesus how would they know about this?

If that is true then Jesus would die on the cross since the creation of the universe not after million years.

Jeff

16-01-08, 09:57 PM

There was no attack but that is what I understood by your previous post.

How about Man before Jesus how would they would they know about this?

If that is true then Jesus would die on the cross since the creation of the universe not after million years.

I think your questions are very good. I am not offended.

But wouldn't it be better if they were not wasted? Why not ask them on Thalia's thread?

BrAiKi

16-01-08, 10:15 PM

Posts about who Jesus is can be posted in the thread "Understanding who Jesus is in the lives of Christians." Any posts regarding that topic will be moved there too

shamsery

17-01-08, 08:08 AM

yes it is a very big question with big parameters, but you shouldn't change the topic and start discussing the Quraan here right?
Compare and contrast is okay, but getting deeper into comparison and deviating to another topic is not okay :)
I thank

I agree with first point.

Strongly differ with 2nd point marked in red.
Comparison means, which I under stand , Contrast, judgment, assessment, evaluation, that will obviously deeper. A serious issue should be discuss seriously and this not for joke shake.
Agree with third point , main focus should be on The Bible.
The analyze should be based on logic and respect.

Not exercise the privilege in autocratic and stupid way.

shamsery

17-01-08, 08:10 AM

Posts about who Jesus is can be posted in the thread "Understanding who Jesus is in the lives of Christians." Any posts regarding that topic will be moved there too

The Bible without Jesus (Pbuh) , Oh my god , I cannot imagine.

BrAiKi

17-01-08, 02:46 PM

IceTea

17-01-08, 02:53 PM

I think Shamsery has a point, in order to discuss which Bible is right you have to go through the contents of the different versions which means automatically Jesus will be part of the discussion as the Bible is talking about Jesus also.

IceTea

17-01-08, 03:19 PM

WHICH SPANISH BIBLE IS CORRECT?
(http://www.biblebelievers.com/mcardle_which-spanish.html)

English versions or Spanish versions are correct?

shamsery

17-01-08, 03:28 PM

Shamsery, the topic of which bible is right is different than who Jesus really was, come on, even a 10 year old would know the difference!

I respect that you don't agree with my statement, but I'm afraid thats how things are going to work here :)

Though I am not going to take part in this thread until I complete thread Agonistic become believer in Prophet hood, why?.
I think this discussion is more important for us to know our own scripture.
If one can discuss NT minus Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) that would be really interesting and unique, I believe.
Central character of NT is Jesus so far I know and understand.
I am totally confused.
Please go ahead.
Wish you all the best and hope you will present a fantastic picture and discussion.
The Bible ( You trust it or not) and Jesus(Pbuh) is inseparable.

mimosa

17-01-08, 03:48 PM

Is there any chance of this thread getting back to the original topic? The question was not about the nature of the Trinity, whether Christians are "mushrikeen", or the principle of original sin...and I think we wasted enough effort on silly semantics of translation.

The Catholic Bible in its various forms, always has between four and seven books fewer than Orthodox bibles, and seven books more than Protestant bibles. This is far more important than how a Hebrew or Greek word has been translated into whatever language. It makes them fundamentally different volumes, because they contain or don't contain whole pieces of writing.

SO...as all the Christian members answering here seem to be Catholic I guess we'll get only one answer, but it would still be interesting to hear what it is: Why do Protestants not accept seven of the books in your bible as being true parts of it, and why do you in turn not accept several of the books that the Orthodox churches consider integral to the Bible? Jeff has explained how Catholics consider the Bible to have been guided directly by God...so why such big differences?

Oh, and all three are totally different to the "Jewish Bible " i.e. the Torah, which has far fewer books than any of the Christian "Old Testament" versions, and a few that the Christians do not use. So when and why did that change come?

shamsery

17-01-08, 04:04 PM

So when and why did that change come?

Most Dangerous question asked till the thread running.
Some likes to witness the play Cleopatra without Julius Caesar.

wudjab

18-01-08, 01:08 AM

Mimo,

Being a Roman Catholic, I follow what the Holy Father under the guidance of the Holy Spirit declares as doctrine - that is in matter related to faith and morals - when the Pope is speaking Ex-Cathedera.

That means, I am not obliged to follow what the Vatican might say about Harry Potter, but I am obliged to do so in matters of faith and morals.

As a Roman Catholic, I have only one Bible - there might be versions (meaning, in simple english for children, in modern english, etc, etc) but he core message DOES NOT CHANGE.

And as Christians, that is what is important.

If a Junior Bible says "You must be kind to your neighbour" and another one says "Show kindness to your neighbour" - they mean exactly the same thing.

No two Bible versions carry contrary messages.

As Christians, we are more concerned with WHAT God is telling us, rather the the EXACT WORDS God is using to tell us the message.

That will also explain why Christianity is able to progress and allow itself open to critical examination WITHOUT its followers flying into orgasms of violence.

Thay also explains why you don't hear of people using the Bible as justication for mass murder because the message is clear.

Threadlike

18-01-08, 02:00 AM

wudjab you realize that all the evidence you gave us till now was:
1) plans of a future study from Germany.
2) other forum thread.
3) copied stuff from other forum thread.

Very reliable stuff!

"Thay also explains why you don't hear of people using the Bible as justication for mass murder because the message is clear."
What is 'thay'? Anyhow...If you haven't seen Christian terrorists, then you need to open your eyes a little. There ARE people who use the Bible for causes that it's innocent from just as there are people who use the Qura'n for causes that it is innocent from. You should quit having a double standard.

"That will also explain why Christianity is able to progress and allow itself open to critical examination WITHOUT its followers flying into orgasms of violence."
How is Christianity able to 'progress'? How can a religion 'progress'? Do you change its scripture? Do you change its ways of worship? Then how can you say it 'progressed'? Religions are constant...The people change.

Listen, I hate ruining threads and I hate going into discussions to say Christianity is better than Islam or vice-versa. I think it will drag us in a web where none will ever convince the other and is thus a useless disucssion...So let's focus on the topic, eh?

Thalia

18-01-08, 02:08 AM

wudjab

18-01-08, 02:09 AM

You might want to open a new thread to discuss these Christian terrorists - terrorists who use the Bible as justification rather than terrorists who happen to be Christian.

I shall meet you there.

Threadlike

18-01-08, 02:25 AM

I might wanna open a thread to say that there are people who use the Bible + Christianity as excuses to terrorise people? I don't think they deserve that much attention of the world. They're the garbage of the people, so why should they be noted except for their crimes? But to deny their existence is being completely naive and you know it. AS I SAID BEFORE, I don't wanna drag this disucssion to anything other than its main topic. If you want however, I will discuss it through PM with you, no problems!

wudjab, forums cannot be used as reliable evidence in this topic for the following reasons:
1) The hypotheis you are putting forth is not small in magnitude to many Muslims. You are saying that there are human additions and differences in the Qura'n copies we have today. As that is completely unacceptable by Islamic faith and completely disproven, if you WANT to prove it to all the Muslims in this Sabla you'll need more than a forum thread. You'll need to get a SPECIALIST opinion on the matter. Some Muslim opinion or really any other NEUTRAL historian who will say, 'Yes, there are so many versions of the Qura'n today and they're all different in content and meaning'.
2) If the Bible is open to investigation and you accept that there are many 'versions' of it, what makes you think that Muslims should believe the same about the Qura'n? We take our Christian members as fellows in monotheism, brothers but I personally apologise if I gave the impression that we are of the same religion. The Qura'n declares itself as the final and protected message and Muslims hold that belief for reasons of faith. You are implying to SHAKE that faith. And unfortunately, that cannot be done with a forum thread either.

Finally, trying to come out as a victim and saying that 'nothing is good for me' is strange. I do NOT want you to translate anything. The words you entered over here are CLEARLY differences in pronounciation...They create