Murder, rape, child molesting and genocide. These are all some of the appalling crimes which occur in our world today. Many would think that these are the worst possible offenses which could be committed. But there is something which outweighs all of these crimes put together: It is the crime of shirk.

Some people may question this notion. But when viewed in a proper context, the fact that there is no crime worse then shirk, will become evident to every sincere person.

There is no doubt that the above crimes are indeed terrible, but their comparison with shirk shows that they do not hold much significance in relation to this travesty. When a man murders, rapes or steals, the injustice which is done is directed primarily at other humans. But when a man commits shirk, the injustice is directed towards the Creator of the heavens and the earth; Allah. When a person is murdered, all sorts of reasons and explanations are given. But one thing that the murderer cannot claim, is that the murdered was someone who provided him with food, shelter, clothing and all the other things which keep humans aloft in this life.

But when a person commits shirk, they attempt to, willingly or unwillingly, direct an injustice towards the one who has provided them with all these necessary things - and often a whole lot more. This Being who provides us with all our needs and wants is of course Allah, the Lord of this universe. So is it right for us to commit this offense against the one who has provided us with all that we could possibly need? This is the ultimate form of ingratitude which humans display, and will eventually cause many people eternal pain. The severity of this crime has been established in shaa Allah, but until now you may have been wondering 'what exactly is shirk?'

The Reality of Shirk

In the previous issue we talked about Tawheed (the Oneness of Allah). Shirk is its exact opposite. Linguistically, shirk means a partnership or to share or associate. However, Islamicly it is to give to other than Allah, that which belongs solely to Allah. This means that parts of Allah's creation are given powers and attributes which belong to Allah, thus, ultimately sending worship to other then Allah alone. These parts of the creation therefore become partners with Allah.

The purpose of our creation is outlined in the Qur'an when Allah says: "I did not create the Jinn[1] and mankind except to worship Me" (Surah Ad-Dhariyat 51:56)

Our very existence on this earth is to worship Allah alone. By committing shirk, a person ends up denying this very purpose of our creation. To Allah, this is the gravest of sins and thus unforgivable.

Allah says: "Surely Allah will not forgive the association of partners (shirk) with Him, but He forgives (sins) less then that to whomever He wishes" (Surah An-Nisa 4:48)

This means that everything can be forgiven except shirk. However we should not misunderstand this into thinking that those who commit shirk are totally doomed. Allah calls himself by al-Ghafoor (The Most Forgiving), and truly he is the Most Forgiving. If a person commits shirk and then wishes to make repentance, Allah accepts his repentance and wipes the slate clean. But if the person does not make repentance during his lifetime, then Allah will not forgive this person on the Day of judgment. Hellfire will be made eternal and he/she will never come out. It must also be remembered that Allah through his justice, has not discriminated in the punishment of this crime. If a Muslim commits shirk during his lifetime, and does not make repentance, he too will face the eternal fury of the Hellfire. It is this thought which helps Muslims from becoming too complacent and arrogant like some of the previous nations.[2]

Some people say that eternal Hellfire is unjust. But indeed Allah is the Most Just. While some will go to Hell forever for committing shirk, there will be others who will go to Paradise forever for upholding Tawheed. Those who say that Allah is unjust for sending some to Hell forever, should therefore also say that Allah is unjust for sending others to Paradise forever! But we know that those who claim this, would never themselves refuse an everlasting reward such as Paradise, thus showing the weak human understanding of this argument.

By committing shirk we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we harm Allah in anyway. Rather we harm ourselves with the threat of Allah's punishment. It is as if humans stick two fingers up at Allah after He has favored them with so much. Thus a crime is committed against Allah, yet it does not harm him - Such is the magnitude and greatness of our Creator. In order to understand how shirk manifests itself in our world, we need to look at how it relates to the categories of Tawheed (mentioned in the last issue).

Shirk in Allah's Lordship (Ruboobeeya)

This category of shirk has two aspects:

(i)- Shirk by Association - As Muslims we believe that it is Allah alone who Controls and Sustains the universe. Those who commit shirk by association believe that Allah is the Creator, but other parts of the creation also play a role in the running of the world. A classic example of this is the Christian concept of Trinity. Christians believe that God (Allah) alone does not regulate the affairs of mankind. They believe that the other two parts of the Trinity, Jesus (as) and the Holy spirit, also play a part in worldly affairs e.g. Jesus pronounces judgment on the world and the holy spirit helps Christians through their daily lives. Qualities such as these should only belong to Allah. The Hindus also commit this kind of shirk, with them having hundreds of different Gods for different aspects of their lives.

Unfortunately some Muslims have also fallen prey to this shirk. There are many from the Indian subcontinent who often call out for help upon saints and holy men who have passed away. One of the main saints whom they invoke is 'Abdul-Qadir al-Jeelanee'[3] whom they call 'Al-Ghawth-e-Azam' (the greatest source of help).

(ii)-Shirk by Negation - Over the centuries many philosophies and ways of life have denied the existence of God. Buddhism and Jainism are amongst the major world religions which assert this belief. During the 18th and 19th centuries the advancement of scientific knowledge led many philosophers and scientists to claim that God was a figment of mans imagination. By canceling the role of a supreme legislator, those who claim that God does not exist, ultimately attempt to make themselves masters of their own destinies. Some atheists also give Allah's attributes to his creation. By denying Allah, they say the world is eternal with no beginning and no end. And we know that this is only for Allah.

Shirk in Allah's Names and Attributes (Asma wa Sifaat)

This category of shirk has two aspects:

(i) -Shirk by Humanization - The Tawheed of Allah's names and attributes demands that we believe Allah to be free from any human likeness. Those who commit shirk by humanization give attributes to God which are more appropriate for human beings than an all-powerful Creator. Christianity is again guilty of this shirk. In the Bible we find countless examples of God being given human attributes. In the book of Genesis, God is said to have created the world in six days and then rested on the seventh!! In other places God is said to have repented for his bad thoughts and felt sorry because of his actions!

This form of shirk has even taken some people beyond the limits of sanity. In India there are many Hindus who worship the Shiva Lingam Deity. This is an idol which is shaped and sized to represent the male genitals. For the Hindus it represents the reproductive powers of God, and they display their affection by massaging the deity with milk, water and butter!

These examples of humanization are indeed an injustice to the almighty, who responds clearly by saying in the Qu'raan:

"There is nothing like Him and He sees and hears all things" (Surah Ash-Shoora 42:11)

(ii) - Shirk by Deification - This form of shirk occurs when created beings are given the names or attributes of Allah and thus become deities. This form of shirk is especially popular with humans, with many people being given a Godlike status by ignorant followers. Jesus, Buddha, Rama, Zoroaster and many other famous religious figures of the past have been held to be incarnations of the all mighty. The twentieth Century has also seen many cults emerge, from which many leaders have claimed divinity. Sai Baba [4], David Koresh [5], Guru Rajnishi [6] and many more have all claimed this attribute which only belongs to Allah.

Shirk in the Worship of Allah (Eebaadah)

This category of shirk has two aspects:

(i) - Major Shirk (Shirk-al-Akbar)- As Muslims we believe that all forms of worship should be for Allah alone. Those people who physically direct their worship at other then Allah, commit this major shirk. By doing this action, mankind commits the greatest act of rebellion and places himself at the doors of eternal hellfire.

Worship in Christianity is usually devoid of God's name, and Christians often bow down in front of statues of Christ, Mary and many other saints of Christendom. The Muslims have also fallen foul to this evil. Thousands, if not millions, of ignorant Muslims make pilgrimages to the graves of saints and holy men. At the graves they perform acts which clearly violate the principles of Tawheed. They perform prayers (literally!) at the graveside, they sacrifice in the name of the dead saint and they make tawwaaf (circumambulation) of the grave. Many of them even ask the dead saints to grant them children and to forgive them of their sins! All this contradicts the statement of Allah when he commands us to:

"Say; Truly my prayer, my sacrifice, my life and my death are all for Allah, Lord of the worlds" (Surah Al-An'aam 6:162)

Major shirk is rampant amongst the world's population and is ultimately the obstacle to our salvation.

(ii)- Minor Shirk (Shirk-e-Asghar) - "Mahmood bin Lubayd reported that Allah's Messenger (saws) said: 'The thing that I fear for you the most is minor shirk'. The companions asked: 'O' Messenger of Allah, what is minor shirk?' He replied: 'Showing off (ar-riya), for verily Allah will say on the day of resurrection when people are receiving their rewards, 'Go to those whom you were showing off too in the world and see if you can find any reward from them'" [7].

When doing righteous deeds our intentions should be to please the one who sustains and keeps us alive. It should not be to please those who have done nothing in comparison to what the Creator has done. Showing off has become a disease amongst humans, and tears away at any sincerity which may be present inside a person. Thus Islam is probably the only way of life which regulates this minor action, and places its danger in a proper context.

To know of the dangers of shirk should be of primary importance. Whether we are Muslim or not, we should realize that it is the crime of shirk which has led to the destruction of our world. By taking man away from the worship of Allah, it has led him to the worship of other men, leading to oppression and tyranny. By confining man to the narrowness of this world, it will deny him the vastness of the hereafter, which leads to justice and success. Therefore surely . . . . shirk is the ultimate crime.


Footnotes
1 Jinn's are another part of Allah's creation. They were created from smokeless fire and are (like man) required to worship Allah.
2 The Jewish people were granted many favors by Allah. But this favoritism resulted in them becoming arrogant, and the favors of Allah were taken away from them.
3 Abdul-Qadir AI-Jeelanee was born in Jeelan (Iran) in the year 1077 CE. He was a jurist of the Hanbalite school of Islamic law. Many miracles have been falsely attributed to him, elevating him up to a Godlike status. He himself was very harsh against those who opposed Tawheed. The Qaadiree Sufi order is named after him. He died in the year 1166 CE.
4 Sai Baba is an Indian Holy man who claims the loyalty of millions worldwide through his multi-faith cult. He is deified to such an extent that his followers wake up at dawn every day to pray to him.
5 David Koresh was the leader of the Branch Davidian sect based in Waco, Texas, USA Koresh reinterpreted the teachings of the Bible to proclaim himself as the son of God. The cult was ended in 1993, when a fire killed most of Koresh's followers after a shoot-out with FBI officers.
6 Guru Rajnishi was the leader of a major American commune during the eighties. The cult lost momentum after it was accused of the attempted murder of an American politician.
7 Authentic-Narrated by Ahmed, Baihaqee and Tabaranee

from the 'Invitation to Islam' Newsletter, Issue 2, July 1997source (http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shirk/crime.htm)

Worship in Christianity is usually devoid of God's name

Oh, now, THERE's a good one! :p

Christian worship, both private and public constantly mentions God's name since it is ENTIRELY oriented toward God.

Most of my private prayers are simply to "God", as are those of every other Christian I know.

The prayers of the Mass almost always begin "O God" or "O Lord". Even those in the Mass (the central worship of Catholics) which involve the invocation of saints are addressed to God, not to the saints.

The central formal prayer, private and public, of Christians is the Lord's Prayer taught to us by Jesus, which begins: "Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy Name."

Most of Christian prayer is formed around the Psalms (or Zabbur), which are ALL addressed to God. Whenever monks pray, the begin by bowing down and singing:

"O God come to my assistance; Lord make haste to help me."

On every lightpole at the Catholic University of America, near where I live in Washington, is the university motto:

http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/images/u/us_cua.gif

"Deus Lux Mea Est" "God is My Light"

****

Ice Tea, you are a great guy and a devoted lover of God and I respect you. And I have learned a lot about Islam and Muslims from you.

But when it comes to Christianity, you really should learn what we actually believe, teach and do. It's not very convincing to people when you say things about them that are silly. This is true even if you want to convince them that Islam is true.

Of course, this is the fault of the person who wrote the piece, too.



****

In English, the word "shirk" has a different meaning. It means, "to avoid labor; to seek to escape one's duty."

When you are talking about another religion, you shouldn't SHIRK the duty of understanding it and presenting it accurately.

So IceTea are you saying when the Quran mentions the "People of the Book" it is just giving lip service to the ... "People of the Book"?

Jeff, looks like you didn't complete the sentence:

Worship in Christianity is usually devoid of God's name, and Christians often bow down in front of statues of Christ, Mary and many other saints of Christendom.

jack, people of the book a reference to the previouse scriptures (Torah to prophet Moses and Injeel to prophet Issa) revealed by Allah. However, the true message in these scrpitures have been changed by man.

Jeff, looks like you didn't complete the sentence:
[/u].

I completed the sentence.

It says

1. one thing

2. AND then it says another thing.

I can't discuss every single thing in the post, nor do I want to.

Number 2 is worth talking about. But it's a different question from number 1.

If I say, "Ice Tea is a Martian and he is a member of English Sabla" and then you say, "I am not a Martian!" can I respond by saying, "You didn't read the rest of the sentence"?

jack, people of the book a reference to the previouse scriptures (Torah to prophet Moses and Injeel to prophet Issa) revealed by Allah. However, the true message in these scrpitures have been changed by man.
You don't even make any sense anymore.

In circa 600 AD, the Christian Scriptures were about Jesus being the son of God. Something you think is Shirk. Your usual "but it has been corrupted" argument doesn't even fit here.

So what is your point?

Do you always need help answering such simple questions?

You don't even make any sense anymore.

In circa 600 AD, the Christian Scriptures were about Jesus being the son of God. Something you think is Shirk. Your usual "but it has been corrupted" argument doesn't even fit here.



What does son of God means?

There are numerous places in the Old Testament where this title has been given to others.

God called Israel (Prophet Jacob) His “son” when He instructed Prophet Moses to go to Pharaoh in Exodus 4:22-23, “22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Israel is my first-born son, 23and I say to you, ‘Let my son go that he may serve me.’ ” [5]

In 2nd Samuel 8:13-14, God calls Prophet Solomon His son,
“13 He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14I will be his father, and he shall be my son.”

God promised to make Prophet David His son in Psalms
89:26-27: “26 He shall cry unto me, ‘Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation,’ 27Also I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth.”[6]

Angels are referred to as “sons of God” in The Book of Job
1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.”[7]

In the New Testament, there are many references to “sons
of God” other than Jesus. For example, when the author of the Gospel according to Luke listed Jesus’ ancestors back to Adam, he wrote: “The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.”[8]

Some claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is
that he is the only begotten[9] Son of God, while the others are merely “sons of God”. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, “I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ ”

It should also be noted that nowhere in the Gospels does
Jesus actually call himself “Son of God”.[10] Instead, he is recorded to have repeatedly called himself “Son of man” (e.g. Luke 9:22) innumerable times. And in Luke 4:41, he actually rejected being called “Son of God”: “And demons also came out of many, crying, ‘You are the Son of God!’ But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.”

Since the Hebrews believed that God is One, and had
neither wife nor children in any literal sense, it is obvious that the expression “son of God” merely meant to them “Servant of God”; one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God, as a son is to a father. Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, “son of God” signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods.[11] When the Church cast aside its Hebrew foundations, it adopted the pagan concept of “son of God”,
which was entirely different from the Hebrew usage.[12]

Consequently, the use of the term “son of God” should only
be understood from the Semitic symbolic sense of a “servant of God”, and not in the pagan sense of a literal offspring of God. In the four Gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying: “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”[13]

Likewise, Jesus’ use of the term abba, “dear father”, should be understood similarly. There is a dispute among New Testament scholars as to precisely what abba meant in Jesus’ time and also as to how widely it was in use by other Jewish sects of that era.

James Barr has recently argued forcefully that it did not
have the specially intimate sense that has so often been attributed to it, but that it simply meant “father”.[14] To think of God as “our heavenly Father” was by no means new, for in the Lord’s prayer he is reported to have taught his disciples to address God in this same familiar way.

going to magicians to get weird stuff like 7oora boora is also an example of shirk ;)
because they use jin and things from the '3aib world
am sorry i couldn't translate some words i just mentioned

What does son of God means?
*yawn*



.

going to magicians to get weird stuff like 7oora boora is also an example of shirk ;)
because they use jin and things from the '3aib world
am sorry i couldn't translate some words i just mentioned
Yes.. and when you see these people in the streets making such a fuss over naming a teddy bear mohammed, I gotta say.. that's really bordering too closely to shirk.

I thought Mohammed was just a prophet.. like all the others.. but the way you see how people go frantic .. they don't do the same if the teddy bear was called Musa or Noah.

One word.

Shirk.

*yawn*



.


Is that your answer?

Looks like you are not sure or confused.

Is that your answer?

Looks like you are not sure or confused.
yes yes I am very confused.


I am confused as to whether you have short term memory loss or whether you just really really enjoy repetition.

I don't.

In circa 600 AD, the Christian Scriptures were about Jesus being the son of God.


How about before 600 AD?

Check this one Thalai:


Ancient Thoughts

There was serious conflict between the Pauline and the Jerusalem interpretations of Jesus and his message. This conflict, after simmering for years, finally led to a complete break, by which the Pauline Christian Church was founded, comprising, in effect, a new religion, separated from Judaism. On the other hand, the Jerusalem Nazarenes did not sever their links with Judaism, but regarded themselves essentially as practicing Jews, loyal to the Torah, who also believed in Jesus, a human Messiah figure.[33]

When the Jewish insurrection was crushed by the Romans and their Temple destroyed in 70 CE, the Jewish Christians were scattered, and their power and influence as the Mother Church and center of the Jesus movement was ended.[34] The Pauline Christian movement, which up until 66 CE had been struggling to survive against the strong disapproval of Jerusalem, now began to make headway.

The Jerusalem Church, under the leadership of James, originally known as Nazarenes, later came to be known by the derogatory nickname Ebionites (Hebrew evyonium, “poor men”), which some Nazarenes adopted with pride as a reminder of Jesus’ saying, “Blessed are the poor.” After the ascendency of Graeco-Roman Church, the Nazarenes became despised as heretics, due to their rejection of the doctrines of Paul.[35]

According to the ancient Church historian, Irenaeus (c. 185 CE), the Ebionites believed in one God, the Creator, taught that Jesus was the Messiah, used only the Gospel According to Matthew, and rejected Paul as an apostate from the Jewish Law.[36]

Ebionites were known to still exist in the 4th century. Some had left Palestine and settled in Transjordan and Syria and were later known to be in Asia Minor, Egypt and Rome.[37]

Monarchianism,[38] a Gentile Christian movement which developed during the 2nd and 3rd centuries continued to represent the “extreme” monotheistic view of the Ebionites. It held that Christ was a man, miraculously conceived, but was only ‘Son of God’ due to being filled with divine wisdom and power. This view was taught at Rome about the end of the 2nd century by Theodotus, who was excommunicated by Pope Victor, and taught somewhat later by Artemon, who was excommunicated by Pope Zephyrinus. About 260 CE it was again taught by Paul of Samosata,[39] the bishop of Antioch in Syria, who openly preached that Jesus was a man through whom God spoke his Word (Logos), and he vigorously affirmed the absolute unity of God.

Between 263 and 268 at least three church councils were held at Antioch to debate Paul’s orthodoxy. The third condemned his doctrine and deposed him. However, Paul enjoyed the patronage of Zenobia, queen of Palmyra, to whom Antioch was then subject, and it was not until 272 when the emperor Aurelian defeated Zenobia that the actual deposition was carried out.[40]

In the late third and early fourth centuries, Arius (b. c. 250, Libya - d. 336 CE), a presbyter of Alexandria, Egypt, also taught the finite nature of Christ and the absolute oneness of God, which attracted a large following, until he was declared a heretic by the council of Nicaea in May 325 CE. During the council, he refused to sign the formula of faith stating that Christ was of the same divine nature as God. However, influential support from colleagues in Asia Minor and from Constantia, the emperor Constantine’s daughter,
succeeded in effecting Arius’ return from exile and his readmission into the church.[41] The movement which he was supposed to have begun, but which was in fact an extension of Jerusalem Nazarene/Jewish Christian belief, came to be known as Arianism and constituted the greatest internal threat to the Pauline Christian orthodoxy’s belief in Jesus’ divinity.

From 337 to 350 CE, the emperor in the West, Constans, was sympathetic to the orthodox Christians, and Constantius II, sympathetic to the Arians, was Emperor in the East. Arian influence was so great that at a church council held in Antioch (341 CE), an affirmation of faith was issued which omitted the clause that Jesus had the “same divine nature as God”. In 350 CE Constantius II became sole ruler of the empire, and under his leadership the Nicene party (orthodox Christians) was largely crushed. After Constantius the
Second’s death in 361 CE, the orthodox Christian majority in the West consolidated its position. However, the defense of absolute monotheism and the suppression of orthodox Christian trinitarian beliefs continued in the East under the Arian emperor Valens (364-383 CE). It was not until Emperor Theodosius I (379-395 CE) took up the defense of orthodoxy that Arianism was finally crushed. The unitarian beliefs of Arius, however, continued among some of the Germanic tribes up until the end of the 7th century.[42]

yes yes I am very confused.


I am confused as to whether you have short term memory loss or whether you just really really enjoy repetition.

I don't.

I hope you concentrate on the topic instead of attacking me. :)

I have better things to do than read your 4ft long lectures.. but it doesn't matter what happened before 600AD because the Quran was written AFTER that.

So, we have to atleast think that by the time the Quran was written, which you believe it the direct word of God Himself, God would have known about the PAST and would have included that in the book. There would be no need of future "scholars" to change their mind and tell you that the Quran is referring to a section of people that don't really exist. Yet apparantly, this subtle "editing" is ok for you.

I hope you concentrate on the topic instead of attacking me. :)
I hope you take your own advice. :)

I have better things to do than read your 4ft long lectures.. but it doesn't matter what happened before 600AD because the Quran was written AFTER that.

What is better than finding the truth, just wondering.


So, we have to atleast think that by the time the Quran was written, which you believe it the direct word of God Himself, God would have known about the PAST and would have included that in the book. There would be no need of future "scholars" to change their mind and tell you that the Quran is referring to a section of people that don't really exist. Yet apparantly, this subtle "editing" is ok for you.

"God would have known about the PAST and would have included that in the book".

Can you clarify above point so I can reply to you?

The prayers of the Mass almost always begin "O God" or "O Lord". Even those in the Mass (the central worship of Catholics) which involve the invocation of saints are addressed to God, not to the saints.

The central formal prayer, private and public, of Christians is the Lord's Prayer taught to us by Jesus, which begins: "Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy Name."

When you are talking about another religion, you shouldn't SHIRK the duty of understanding it and presenting it accurately.
And you should stop to tell lies to people here just to make appear your religion without flaws
Am not sure you are Catholic or from some other Christian sect
Yes the main prayers are to God but a great number of invocations are directed to the Virgin Mary and to the saints, kissing their statues and relics
For you is perfectly normal coming from a religion that dsnt believe in the oneness of God
For us is shirk cause goes against the Tawhid

Tea didn't you have a shorter article :os

What is better than finding the truth, just wondering.



"God would have known about the PAST and would have included that in the book".

Can you clarify above point so I can reply to you?
No.
Read it again.


I suggest you start from the top of the thread.

In the Quran there are many verses talking about previous nations. I suggest that you read the Quran.

Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

Just for you icetea. :cute:


Jack sed: So IceTea are you saying when the Quran mentions the "People of the Book" it is just giving lip service to the ... "People of the Book"?


You sed: jack, people of the book a reference to the previouse scriptures (Torah to prophet Moses and Injeel to prophet Issa) revealed by Allah. However, the true message in these scrpitures have been changed by man.



a) You are not answering Jack's question
b) Maybe you ought to look up the words "giving lip service"

I thought Mohammed was just a prophet.. like all the others..

He's not any prophet as you've claimed; he's the last one and the carrier of the holy book that has not changed to this day :)

He's not any prophet as you've claimed; he's the last one and the carrier of the holy book that has not changed to this day :)
Is he more than a prophet?

I didn't say he was any prophet. No prophet is ANY prophet.. they are all unique in their own ways.

But if he is not MORE than a prophet, if he is not something other than human.. then why behave in that way over a teddy bear being called Mohammed and not over the teddy bear being called Musa, for example?

Those who have a pure heart know there is something deeply wrong with all that. Something no one dare talk about incase they get fingers pointed towards them.

I have nothing to lose. I'll stand here and tell you that is shirk. It's wrong according to Islam.

Also I read somewhere that Isaa, or Jesus was regarded as a better man or prophet or something.. according to Islam that is..the memory is vague.. so maybe someone who knows about it can enlighten us further. It's rather interesting since you see so many muslims so eager to go into the streets to avenge the prophet's name when a kid calls a teddy bear by it. :rolleyes:

... carrier of the holy book that has not changed to this day :)


Which makes no difference since there are too many schools of tought all interpreting the same thing very differently. *cough*

The school of thoughts did not change the Book

Please don't go down that path Amo, or we will be discussing why Uthman had to burn all the different versions of the Quran.

Dnt try to drag the discussion somewhere else with your dishonest interpretation of the facts as always

Would you like to open a new topic (another one, yes) debating that issue ?

The school of thoughts did not change the Book
It makes no difference as the people in general follow what the people who lecture tell them. And the people who lecture them all send them different messages, different variations of the same thing. Oops.

Which makes no difference since there are too many schools of tought all interpreting the same thing very differently. *cough*

So are you suggesting that the Qura'an has been changed ? :os

Would you like to open a new topic (another one, yes) debating that issue ?
Since how many years are we debating ?
Enough to know you'd love to
No thx :cute:


It makes no difference as the people in general follow what the people who lecture tell them. And the people who lecture them all send them different messages, different variations of the same thing. Oops.
I didn't understand what you mean
I assume you know what is a madhab
Please just google the word, dnt take Woody suggestions as always :cute:
He will confuse you

So are you suggesting that the Qura'an has been changed ? :osThe undisputed fact is without the first copy of the Quran (which no one has) to be examined how would you know?

The undisputed fact is without the first copy of the Quran (which no one has) how would you know?

It's what I believe, since a lot of facts from the past and the present are mentioned in the holy book. Therefore, it is reliable and so I believe that it has not been changed! Unlike the Bible, some stuff mentioned contradicts within the Bible itself! For instance, who Jesus is and where has he came from, then again the Qura'an has solid facts without contradictions.

I hope that answer your query :)

It's what I believe, since a lot of facts from the past and the present are mentioned in the holy book. Therefore, it is reliable and so I believe that it has not been changed! Unlike the Bible, some stuff mentioned contradicts within the Bible itself! For instance, who Jesus is and where has he came from, then again the Qura'an has solid facts without contradictions.

I hope that answer your query :)Good ... you believe! Thanks for clearing that up.

The Al-Guardian newspaper has an ongoing blog called "Blogging the Quran".

Its quite interesting.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/quran/2008/01/nature_and_style_of_the_quran.html

So are you suggesting that the Qura'an has been changed ? :os
No. I'm saying there is no point in the Quran not having been changed if different groups who are in charge of tending to the spiritual needs of the ummah are going to interpret it differently and spread different interpretations of it.

No. I'm saying there is no point in the Quran not having been changed if different groups who are in charge of tending to the spiritual needs of the ummah are going to interpret it differently and spread different interpretations of it.

Can you finally tell us which are these interpretations or we must wait more ?

Just for you icetea. :cute:


Jack sed: So IceTea are you saying when the Quran mentions the "People of the Book" it is just giving lip service to the ... "People of the Book"?


You sed: jack, people of the book a reference to the previous scriptures (Torah to prophet Moses and Injeel to prophet Issa) revealed by Allah. However, the true message in these scriptures have been changed by man.



a) You are not answering Jack's question
b) Maybe you ought to look up the words "giving lip service"

The question was answered, Christians and Jews are called people of the book because of the reason I have mentioned. Now, this doesn't mean they didn't lost the way otherwise there will be no need to call them back to follow the straight path as per the following verse:

Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

Believing Jesus is God means taking others as lords beside Allah.

Other verse:

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no Iilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.

Can you finally tell us which are these interpretations or we must wait more ?
Are you really oblivious to it all or are you just playing dumb?

I'd rather watch paint dry that sift through youtube for the obvious.

Get yourself into a couple of Sabla threads and see how people even within this sabla which are mostly from the same areas learning the same "brand" of islam, often disagree.

Now, take a little trip to your neighbours, Saudia.. and tell me what goes on in their mosques. Then think of how afghanistan was.. go to pakistan.. think of nigeria. Stop of in Qatar and then think of oman again.

The book is unchanged. What good is it when the people who are lecturing the followers.. "If she disobeys, hit your wife!" .. "No. Don't hit your wife, it's wrong" ... "kill those who commit apostasy!!" "No, killing is wrong.. God will see to them" .... "force your wife to convert!" ... "No.. there is no compulsion in religion" ... "Do not eat food unless it is clearly labelled halal" ... "you may eat food of the people of the book" .. "no.. you may not. Go to a muslim butcher!" ... "Yes, you made. Allah said, "Today, I have made things lawful for you" " etc etc etc...

Once, while discussing schools of thought, (yeah, I prefer calling them that since we're in an English forum) someone said.. "yes... there are 4.. you just follow the one that suits (your needs) better" ...

Doesn't get more comfy than that.

No. I'm saying there is no point in the Quran not having been changed if different groups who are in charge of tending to the spiritual needs of the ummah are going to interpret it differently and spread different interpretations of it.

There are no different interpretations about the core of the belief. All muslims believe that there is no God but Allah, prophet Mohammed :PBUH: is the final messenger, all muslims believe in previous prophets and scriptures stated in the holy Quran, all muslims believe that the Quran is the main source in Islam followed by the prophet sunnah and all believe in the pillars of Islam. Do I need to say more?

The undisputed fact is without the first copy of the Quran (which no one has) to be examined how would you know?

Educate yourself and don't raise this issue again.


Question:

There were many versions of the Qur’an all of which were burnt by Usman (r.a.) except for one. Therefore is it not true that the present Qur’an is the one compiled by Usman (r.a.) and not the original revelation of God?

Answer:

One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set of mutually contradicting copies. The Qur’an, revered as the Word of Allah (swt) by Muslims the world over, is the same Qur’an as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. We will examine the roots of the myth which says that Usman (r.a.) had the Qur’an authenticated.

1. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).

2. Order and sequence of Qur’an divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.

3. Qur’an copied on one common material

The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.

4. Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur’an from the original manuscript

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

5. Diacritical marks were added for non-Arabs

The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.

Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.

6. Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an

Allah has promised in the Qur’an :

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)."
[Al-Qur’an 15:9]

The book is unchanged. What good is it when the people who are lecturing the followers.. "If she disobeys, hit your wife!" .. "No. Don't hit your wife, it's wrong" ... "kill those who commit apostasy!!" "No, killing is wrong.. God will see to them" .... "force your wife to convert!" ... "No.. there is no compulsion in religion" ... "Do not eat food unless it is clearly labelled halal" ... "you may eat food of the people of the book" .. "no.. you may not. Go to a muslim butcher!" ... "Yes, you made. Allah said, "Today, I have made things lawful for you" " etc etc etc...



You should concentrate on the true teachings based on the holy Quran and the prophet sunnah, that is your reference to identify the right from the wrong.

Are you really oblivious to it all or are you just playing dumb?
No, am asking for facts cause you rarely bring them

Now, take a little trip to your neighbours, Saudia.. and tell me what goes on in their mosques. Then think of how afghanistan was.. go to pakistan.. think of nigeria. Stop of in Qatar and then think of oman again. You can listen to the Friday sermon from Makkah
Its translation is broadcsted on huda tv on Sat Sund, not sure on which satellite in your island
You might as well have followed the sermon on the day of Arafa
It followed Islamic teachings
If then they promote hatred against jewsh in schools for example, this I dnt know
We had a Saudi member and she said it's not true

The book is unchanged. What good is it when the people who are lecturing the followers.. "If she disobeys, hit your wife!" .. "No. Don't hit your wife, it's wrong" ... "kill those who commit apostasy!!" "No, killing is wrong.. God will see to them" .... "force your wife to convert!" ... "No.. there is no compulsion in religion" ... "Do not eat food unless it is clearly labelled halal" ... "you may eat food of the people of the book" .. "no.. you may not. Go to a muslim butcher!" ... "Yes, you made. Allah said, "Today, I have made things lawful for you" " etc etc etc...
Yes the Book is unchanged, that's the main point
Madhabs differ on the ruling deriving from it, Islamic jurisprudence
I don't know Arabic but I use common sense coming from Islam and my brain : I believe to those who say that darban is not hitting but to show the way
If one wanted to be cruel to the wife, he would simply devorce her, no need to beat
When I was in my village in Italy there was no way to get halal meat and I can't survive on a vegetarian diet : Quran says one is allowed to eat it if there is no other source

Once, while discussing schools of thought, (yeah, I prefer calling them that since we're in an English forum) someone said.. "yes... there are 4.. you just follow the one that suits (your needs) better" ...

Doesn't get more comfy than that.
Ok so what ?
Why do you listen always to every Tom Dick and Harry ?
He/she was obviously wrong cause we must chose according to the ruling which we find closer to Islam and its spirit
And as written in the Quran we often find nice and easy something which is not good for us and leave aside something else only because we find it difficult
You keep on talking for what people tell you, you never go to the sources, you like chitchatting with everybody [specially non Muslims] but never make an analisis of what you criticise, by going directly to the texts or helping yourself with people or sites from Islam
No one wants to convert you, just please stop spreading false knowledge on Islam if you dnt know anything about it

Educate yourself and don't raise this issue again.When you or anyone else bring forth the "first/original copy of the Quran" to be authenticated I won't raise this issue again.

Until then we'll have to take your word for it. Something I'm not ready to do.

No, am asking for facts cause you rarely bring them

You can listen to the Friday sermon from Makkah
Its translation is broadcsted on huda tv on Sat Sund, not sure on which satellite in your island
You might as well have followed the sermon on the day of Arafa
It followed Islamic teachings
If then they promote hatred against jewsh in schools for example, this I dnt know
We had a Saudi member and she said it's not true


Yes the Book is unchanged, that's the main point
Madhabs differ on the ruling deriving from it, Islamic jurisprudence
I don't know Arabic but I use common sense coming from Islam and my brain : I believe to those who say that darban is not hitting but to show the way
If one wanted to be cruel to the wife, he would simply devorce her, no need to beat
When I was in my village in Italy there was no way to get halal meat and I can't survive on a vegetarian diet : Quran says one is allowed to eat it if there is no other source


Ok so what ?
Why do you listen always to every Tom Dick and Harry ?
He/she was obviously wrong cause we must chose according to the ruling which we find closer to Islam and its spirit
And as written in the Quran we often find nice and easy something which is not good for us and leave aside something else only because we find it difficult
You keep on talking for what people tell you, you never go to the sources, you like chitchatting with everybody [specially non Muslims] but never make an analisis of what you criticise, by going directly to the texts or helping yourself with people or sites from Islam
No one wants to convert you, just please stop spreading false knowledge on Islam if you dnt know anything about it
I don't spread false knowledge on islam. (there's enough of your own kind doing that, remember?) I usually come here with questions and get a multitude of different answers all claiming to be the right one.

I'm amazed that you would even accuse me of doing so, and since you have, can you put your money where your mouth is and show me where I've spread false info on Islam? Thanks. :cute:


Now, for the questions. You need not reply if you don't have answers. I'm sure threadlike will give me a more than sufficient answer.

Do you get to choose which school of thought to follow?
Are they different?
Are there imams and muftis making absurd interpretations of the Quran on the face of this earth?

Just wanna make sure I haven't been dreaming the past 2 years I've spent surfing omani forums and muslim websites.

You are not searching for answers
Am not searching for someone who just wants to make fun of me and of my religion

You are not searching for answers
Am not searching for someone who just wants to make fun of me and of my religion
Oh p'uh lease.

I'm not here to tap you on the back and make you feel better. But I can play the whole 'chip on the shoulder' game too and say, "boo hoo.. icetea opened this thread to make fun of me and my religion"..

I've searched for the answers, because I've asked before. And seeing the same arguments crop up time and time again.. I wonder.. is ANYONE really searching for answers? Are you? It's a debate. It's where one says.. "pff you're an idiot and you are wrong" and the other says, "oh really? Then how come so and so and so.. " and the other goes... "mummy! She's picking on me!!!"

:rolleyes:

It's a debate. It's where one says.. "pff you're an idiot and you are wrong" and the other says, "oh really? Then how come so and so and so.. " and the other goes... "mummy! She's picking on me!!!"

:rolleyes:

People of low level see a debate that way
Am not one of those, though sometimes I lose patience with those who have small brain
Am human what to do :D

Do you get to choose which school of thought to follow?
Are they different?
Are there imams and muftis making absurd interpretations of the Quran on the face of this earth?

Just wanna make sure I haven't been dreaming the past 2 years I've spent surfing omani forums and muslim websites.

ُEven in Christianity there are school of thoughts, or no?

Thalia, I lithened and looked at your pothts and came up with thith reply (yes, I had to the 's' thing, sorry :P)!

First, I don't think that talking about Christianity from the view of a Muslim will mean anything to a devoted Christian, just like talking about Islam from the view of a Christian won't mean anything to a devoted Muslim. What I intend by saying 'mean anything' is 'altering faith'. It is my view that to show Islam to the people, the first step is to PRACTISE ISLAM yourself...Followed by whichever method of inviting people you want to follow as long as it's not nagging and annoying and would not turn people against Islam when your intention was to guide them in or at least, give the correct and amazing picture of it that you see yourself.

I think that to speak of why sects or 'mathhabs' exist is a long topic...But my overall view is that all sects came out for political reasons. They had absoloutely no religious reason involved...The first sectarian division would of course come years after the death of the prophet, for purely political reasons.

Difference in the interpretation of something does not mean the alteration of something. The Qura'n is what it was, what it is and what it will be. It never changes. To the Muslim belief, this is determined from all schools of thought by the verse 15:9:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).". To suggest to a Muslim by any means or hints that the Qura'n has been changed is like suggesting to a Christian that God does not exist in three forms. It makes no sense.

You see, observers looked at the skies long ago and saw shapes they could not identify. This was followed by the development of telescopes, spacecrafts, space exploration and etcetra etcetra. Naturally, the view that the Earth was the centre of the universe changed and more advanced views have been adapted to suit the new evidence found. The case of the Qura'n and its interpretation is SLIGHTLY similar in that the interpretations have changed with the years. The interpretation of the Qura'n has been disputed long ago and is disputed on now...But they're all arguing on the same book!

That dispute is not considered by Muslims to simply be 'wrong'. It is considered mercy. In having so many interpretations from knowledgable people of the same verse means that Allah SWT has granted you more choice on what to do in such a matter. Not that the human interpretation has spoiled the Qura'n. Your HEART and MIND matter when you read various interpretations. Because you can feel which interpretation is right and follow it and you can use your common sense as well.

And the most interesting thing is that in any interpretation the author would always write at the end, 'Allah knows best!' indicating that he has done his best to look at the details of this verse and had tried his best to explain it in accordance with other verses and teachings of the Sunna but there's still a particular (though very small) degree of uncertainity.

There are some verses that nobody has found interpretation of! Take verse 1 of Surat al Baqara and any tafseer book next to you...And you will not find a single 'interpretation' of the verse simply because the verse is consisting of three Arabic letter, 'Alif' 'Lam' and 'Meem'. Only Allah SWT knows what He means by these verses.

NOTE:
SWT = Subhanahu wa Taa'la = Most Exalted and Glorified.

icetea opened this thread to make fun of me and my religion"..



Looks like henna affects your way of thinking too, I don't blame you.

Thalia, I lithened and looked at your pothts and came up with thith reply (yes, I had to the 's' thing, sorry :P)!

First, I don't think that talking about Christianity from the view of a Muslim will mean anything to a devoted Christian, just like talking about Islam from the view of a Christian won't mean anything to a devoted Muslim. What I intend by saying 'mean anything' is 'altering faith'. It is my view that to show Islam to the people, the first step is to PRACTISE ISLAM yourself...Followed by whichever method of inviting people you want to follow as long as it's not nagging and annoying and would not turn people against Islam when your intention was to guide them in or at least, give the correct and amazing picture of it that you see yourself.

I think that to speak of why sects or 'mathhabs' exist is a long topic...But my overall view is that all sects came out for political reasons. They had absoloutely no religious reason involved...The first sectarian division would of course come years after the death of the prophet, for purely political reasons.

Difference in the interpretation of something does not mean the alteration of something. The Qura'n is what it was, what it is and what it will be. It never changes. To the Muslim belief, this is determined from all schools of thought by the verse 15:9:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).". To suggest to a Muslim by any means or hints that the Qura'n has been changed is like suggesting to a Christian that God does not exist in three forms. It makes no sense.

You see, observers looked at the skies long ago and saw shapes they could not identify. This was followed by the development of telescopes, spacecrafts, space exploration and etcetra etcetra. Naturally, the view that the Earth was the centre of the universe changed and more advanced views have been adapted to suit the new evidence found. The case of the Qura'n and its interpretation is SLIGHTLY similar in that the interpretations have changed with the years. The interpretation of the Qura'n has been disputed long ago and is disputed on now...But they're all arguing on the same book!

That dispute is not considered by Muslims to simply be 'wrong'. It is considered mercy. In having so many interpretations from knowledgable people of the same verse means that Allah SWT has granted you more choice on what to do in such a matter. Not that the human interpretation has spoiled the Qura'n. Your HEART and MIND matter when you read various interpretations. Because you can feel which interpretation is right and follow it and you can use your common sense as well.

And the most interesting thing is that in any interpretation the author would always write at the end, 'Allah knows best!' indicating that he has done his best to look at the details of this verse and had tried his best to explain it in accordance with other verses and teachings of the Sunna but there's still a particular (though very small) degree of uncertainity.

There are some verses that nobody has found interpretation of! Take verse 1 of Surat al Baqara and any tafseer book next to you...And you will not find a single 'interpretation' of the verse simply because the verse is consisting of three Arabic letter, 'Alif' 'Lam' and 'Meem'. Only Allah SWT knows what He means by these verses.

NOTE:
SWT = Subhanahu wa Taa'la = Most Exalted and Glorified.
Thanks for the explanation Threadlike. (I can't even fake the TH here lol)

I'm not trying to lecture.. it's just that to me, when someone keeps saying that there are X number of versions of the bible, it makes me laugh. And I believe that many times, one has to be in someone else's shoes to understand why they think it's absurd.

I do think it's a silly argument given that Islam has so many people interpreting it. No one is going to say, "OMG! The Quran is corrupted!" .. but people choose to ignore what they think is wrong, and stick to what they think is right. And even though some interpretations are really conflicting with other parts of the Quran, it's obvious that no one thinks there is a problem, which is fine by me, until someone says "your bible is corrupted" (which has been tried to be proven in here countless times and Jeff goes to great lengths to explain how it can't be so) or "but that's not islam!" ...

I can understand how in islam associating anyone with God is a sin. Because that's simply the way it is. Understandable since it also came AFTER Christianity.. But to try to understand or rather criticise Christianity by using arguments from the Quran .. is really ignorant, for the same reasons.

So I guess we can atleast all agree that no one is here to get answers. :hmm:

Looks like henna affects your way of thinking too, I don't blame you.
What do you do then? Eat it?

Thalia, we can't deny that there are also many Christians who can find evidence in the Bible to say that Islam has 'false' teachings that can never be of any religion. I have listened to them and read them myself. You and Jeff would not do that most of the time, but you believe it at your heart that your religion is the best and that all other religions are incomplete or not spiritually satisfying. I cannot deny that I think the same of Christianity...And Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

To guide to Islam, as I said before, should involve a LOT of self-preaching...In other words, you should try your best to be a role model yourself. And it involves a lot of talking about ISLAM, not about CHRISTIANITY or any other religion because your knowledge of Islam is naturally and usually much more than your knowledge of Christianity and the logic says, 'Say what you know about most'. I think everyone is aware of the fact that if you take one religion, you're simply discarding all others as not your own and possibly 'less spiritually satisfying' than your own. In discussing differences between religions, one has to be careful not to offend any others and not to call their religion 'bad'.

If I say that the Bible was not 'corrupted' I am abandoning a part of my religion. If you say the Bible is corrupted and is not written through Godly inspiration, you're abandoning a part of your religion. We will agree to disagree. But we will agree that we both worship one God, we both think that one should be good to others, we both think that having different religions is better than having no religions, we both think that one needs to be modest in his relations. That one should not steal, not kill, not cheat...etcetra etcetra. Our points of agreement are more significant than our points of disagreement. It is the same case in the matter of both Christian and Muslim sects, I guess.

All religions are beautiful and are certianly 'better' than no religions at all. But Islam (to me) is a lot more beautiful than others and Christianity to you is the same.

Thalia, we can't deny that there are also many Christians who can find evidence in the Bible to say that Islam has 'false' teachings that can never be of any religion. I have listened to them and read them myself. You and Jeff would not do that most of the time, but you believe it at your heart that your religion is the best and that all other religions are incomplete or not spiritually satisfying. I cannot deny that I think the same of Christianity...And Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

To guide to Islam, as I said before, should involve a LOT of self-preaching...In other words, you should try your best to be a role model yourself. And it involves a lot of talking about ISLAM, not about CHRISTIANITY or any other religion because your knowledge of Islam is naturally and usually much more than your knowledge of Christianity and the logic says, 'Say what you know about most'. I think everyone is aware of the fact that if you take one religion, you're simply discarding all others as not your own and possibly 'less spiritually satisfying' than your own. In discussing differences between religions, one has to be careful not to offend any others and not to call their religion 'bad'.

All religions are beautiful and are certianly 'better' than no religions at all. But Islam (to me) is a lot more beautiful than others and Christianity to you is the same.
Exactly! :)

This thread is very interesting, thanks Icetea

Shirk or associating partners with God (the greatest Shirk) is the most horrendous sin any human can commit and God will never ever forgive this sin ( refer to the verse in my signature).

Jeff, Thalia, Jack, Wudjab do not take it so personal , what Icetea, Amo, Threadlike and myself trying to do is to show you the way to save your bottoms from hellfire by unveiling the facts to you.

Be thankful to us for this, our message to you is crystal clear :

Worship one God, the true God and DO NOT associate partners with him and surely you will be SAVED in the hereafter.

after all isn't your first commandment states clearly that you should worship ONE God only?

Absorb these FACTS:

Jesus pbuh is NOT God

God is NOT Jesus pbuh

Jesus pbuh is a Prophet

Jesus pbuh has NO father just like Adam pbuh

Mohammad pbuh IS a Prohet just like Jesus, Moses, Ibrahim pbut

Mohammad pbuh is the FINAL prophet

The Quran is the FINAL revelation from God to ALL humans


These are the actual facts you people should acknowledge and no need to argue about them just for the sake of argument and as someone once said it's useless to light a candle in a broad sunlight.

Jeff, Thalia, Jack, Wudjab do not take it so personal , what Icetea, Amo, Threadlike and myself trying to do is to show you the way to save your bottoms from hellfire by unveiling the facts to you.


Thank you. Even thought it's pretty hard for me not to pass a brainwashing joke here.

I don't believe in Islam. Therefore, what you just said makes no sense to me.

^^ Thalia it's not you alone, this is human nature to say NO I don't believe, when confronted with hard core facts, but believe me Thalia there are millions of other Christians who digested those facts I posted and became good Muslims and save themselves from hellfire.

I know it's hard for you to believe what we muslims believe cause we, thanks God, are brought up as muslims, but for you Christianity is inherited from your ancestors and it's in your blood, but don't you think it's time to put things in prospective and try to understand what we muslims believe in? I wonder why it does not make sense to you?

^Because very easily Thalia can pull off the argument that maybe YOU should put things in prospective. That SHE (also 'thankfully') was raised as a Christian and that she knows many Muslims who digested the fact that Jesus IS God and are now saved from hellfire.

But Thalia doesn't do that.
I know you're really doing you best, clouds, to promote your own religion. And I do not doubt your devotion as a Muslim.
But, as a fellow Muslim, I don't like your methods.

^^ Threadlike thanks for your nice praise to me I really appreciate it*smile*

but could you tell me what you don't like about my methods?

For example, the fact that you simply go in and state 'facts'...The facts I completely agree with but Thalia, you see, is a Christian...She doesn't believe in such facts anyhow.
You are focusing the light on the DIFFERENCES between Islam and Christianity when you're saying such simple and purely Islamic facts. I think that you should focus the light on the SIMILARITIES first...The morale in Islam, the reasons behind certain Islamic rulings, certain misconceptions on Islam, how other religions are treated in Islam, the person of the prophet PBUH and finally, at the very end, you can view the differences between Islam and Christianity.

And before you can do any of that, you need to understand that without practising all that you're saying, you cannot achieve anything.

^^Threadlike, thanks for your advise, but I am sticking to the thread which is entitled SHIRK and answering and putting facts straight forward.

I don't like the saying: all the roads leads to Rome, for me there must be a shortest way or route which leads to Rome.

I don't like going round and round things then at the end state what I want to say, I would rather say it straight away, though sometimes it hearts others but what to do that's me myself "Clouds"

that's also me in real life !!!

no wonder I didn't get promoted in my job, cause if my boss make a mistake I point it out to him straight forward!!

I suppose I do not know much about diplomacy and shining others shoes.

Absorb these FACTS:

Jesus pbuh is NOT God

God is NOT Jesus pbuh

Jesus pbuh is a Prophet

Jesus pbuh has NO father just like Adam pbuh

Mohammad pbuh IS a Prohet just like Jesus, Moses, Ibrahim pbut

Mohammad pbuh is the FINAL prophet

The Quran is the FINAL revelation from God to ALL humans

In order for a statement to be a "fact", you need something called 'proof'.

"It says so in my book" is not proof.

"I really, really believe it" is not proof.

I agree with ThreadLike...you don't have to have the "in your face" attitude...be understanding and compassionate. We were all raised differently and so will naturally have different views and opinions and even religions. It's good to speak about your reliegion but not at the expense of hurting others and pointing out faults

Jeff, Thalia, Jack, Wudjab do not take it so personal , what Icetea, Amo, Threadlike and myself trying to do is to show you the way to save your bottoms from hellfire by unveiling the facts to you.

As long as you keep Uranus to yourself...

As long as you keep Uranus to yourself...
Can I rofl in this one?

What about a roflmao?

And you should stop to tell lies to people here just to make appear your religion without flaws
Am not sure you are Catholic or from some other Christian sect
Yes the main prayers are to God but a great number of invocations are directed to the Virgin Mary and to the saints, kissing their statues and relics
For you is perfectly normal coming from a religion that dsnt believe in the oneness of God
For us is shirk cause goes against the Tawhid

Tea didn't you have a shorter article :os

You are altogether too free with words like "lies". Perhaps its a sign of a guilty conscience.

If you read my post, you will see that I took issue with one thing and one thing only: the notion that praying to God was very rare among Christians.

I limited my comments to that one matter. I didn't say that no Christians ever addressed prayers to saints. I didn't even say they didn't do it frequently. I didn't address that topic AT ALL.

If you believe that it is rare for Christians to address prayers to God then you must have worked really hard at forgetting what goes on when Christians get together and pray.

No one needs to listen to either of us amo. All they need to do is spend five minutes looking at the texts of prayers at Mass or the liturgy of the hours.

Or ask Braiki whether he found that prayers to God were "rare" when he attended Mass himself several times in Jordan. No doubt he will burst out laughing at the phenomenal idiocy of the question.

Should one ask the saints to pray to God for one? Is that shirk?

That's a good question. But it's a DIFFERENT question.

Is that your answer?

Looks like you are not sure or confused.

The reason why Thalia is yawning is just that we have had this same discussion over and over again on Sabla. Anyone searching the term "son of God" will find the exact same questions raised and answered repeatedly.

But I'm getting pretty good at it so I don't mind.

"Son of God" means different things in different contexts. In the context of Jesus in the New Testament, "son of God" means something unique. Which is why the Bible calls Him the "ONLY (or only-begotten son of God)". It's also why Jesus tells Philip that "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". And why the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God and still do.

And why Jesus told his followers to baptize everyone "in the Name (not nameS) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." It's why when Peter told Jesus that Jesus was the Son of God JESUS said that JESUS would give Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus would give them, not the Father) because Jesus' Father had revealed it to Peter. ... [if son of God for Jesus just meant "faithful person" there would be no reason at all for such excitement.]

It's the reason why Jesus claims God's title of the Good Shepherd from the 23rd Psalm and many other places and says *I* am the Good Shepherd and speaks about "MY sheep."

Etc, etc, etc. The whole New Testament is chock full of it.

And it's the reason why we have Josephus, a Roman Jew, and Tacitus, from the earliest days testifying that the Christians worshipped this Jesus as their God.

Talk about the Pauline School and other schools of Christianity are just THEORIES modern scripture scholars have come up with on the basis of a certain kind of reading of texts. The same text reading methods have "shown" that Quran was faked up after Mohammed's death to provide an excuse for Arab conquests, that Mohammed never lived anywhere near Mecca, that the Quran was stolen from pre-Islamic hymns and was not written originally in Arabic.

The same flawed method produces results just a wild when you apply it to the Quran as when you apply it to the Bible.

As for the little Christian heresies like the Ebionites: no one really knows what they believed. All that we can surmise on the basis of references to them in Catholic sources is that they believed in preserving Judaic rituals and MAY have believed (on the basis of only ONE reference), that Jesus was human and not divine.

But they were small and died out quickly, leaving no evidence of their own.

What we DO know is that whenever the question came up, the Church testified to Jesus divinity. And when Arius taught his heresy, he didn't teach that Jesus was only a man. He taught that Jesus was sliiiiiightly lower in the scale of divinity than the Father: of LIKE substance, instead of of THE SAME substance. Certainly not that Jesus was a mere prophet.

And when the bishops of the world were called to council to discuss the question, the overwhelming majority condemned Arius as a heretic.

And Arianism DIED OUT.

The overwhelming majority of believing Christians today--Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestant--still confess as Christians have ALWAYS confessed that Jesus is True God from True God.

No matter where you turn--Scripture, Tradition, History, the testimony of those who admired us and those who hated us (the Jews)--you find the same conclusion.

I don't mind repeating myself! :)

For example, the fact that you simply go in and state 'facts'...The facts I completely agree with but Thalia, you see, is a Christian...She doesn't believe in such facts anyhow.
You are focusing the light on the DIFFERENCES between Islam and Christianity when you're saying such simple and purely Islamic facts. I think that you should focus the light on the SIMILARITIES first...The morale in Islam, the reasons behind certain Islamic rulings, certain misconceptions on Islam, how other religions are treated in Islam, the person of the prophet PBUH and finally, at the very end, you can view the differences between Islam and Christianity.

And before you can do any of that, you need to understand that without practising all that you're saying, you cannot achieve anything.

I think that this is a wonderful post.

But I would be satisfied with a lot less.

I am happy that clouds and Ice Tea want to save me from error.

But please don't use misrepresentations, mistakes, sloppy articles, careless interpretations in aid of the point you are trying to make. There are plenty of decent arguments for Muslims to make. Don't make the poor ones and don't make the decent ones in a sloppy and careless manner.

Argue with attention and respect. At LEAST respect for what your debating partner is actually SAYING.

Listen and engage, don't just slip on by and hope no one will notice.

Okay, you believe Islam is the Truth. But Truth is not served by lies, mistakes, not listening, etc. Truth is served by Truth all the way along the line.

All religions are beautiful and are certianly 'better' than no religions at all. But Islam (to me) is a lot more beautiful than others and Christianity to you is the same.

What matters is which religion God has choosen for humans, it's not Christianity but Islam. Allah did not send Prophet Issa pbuh to preach Christianity and the concept of the Trinity nor did he told his people to worship him. We have to be clear and not give approval to others who associate partners with Allah in worship.

I don't believe in Islam. Therefore, what you just said makes no sense to me.

How come believing in the oneness of God doesn't make sense to you?

If you believe that it is rare for Christians to address prayers to God then you must have worked really hard at forgetting what goes on when Christians get together and pray.

Or ask Braiki whether he found that prayers to God were "rare" when he attended Mass himself several times in Jordan. No doubt he will burst out laughing at the phenomenal idiocy of the question.

Should one ask the saints to pray to God for one? Is that shirk?

That's a good question. But it's a DIFFERENT question.

Useless you try to paint Christianity as a monolite, when is not
It has the same divisions and contraddictions one can find in Islam and Muslims
Sunday function has its priority but is not only the only occasion of prayer.
Catholics [am not sure you are one ] pray every day in church or in the house
They pray to statues, pictures, pieces of clothes belonged to Saints
Authorities maybe do not approve of it but do not even do much to discourage it because they very well know that their religion is based on that : spirituality embodied in real persons
You can ask to your converts
This is what they find appealing in it : they find the concept of Jesus you built, fitting in their idea of God close to man
They need substance to believe
Yes we rever Muhammad :PBUH: above all the Prophets cause he was chosen among all, to deliver the message and to teach us the ways to follow God teachings but we do not venerate him as partner of God because it wouldn't make a sense
He was and will remain a man like us : God himself in the Quran showed his fragility

But they were small and died out quickly, leaving no evidence of their own.



Died out quickly, interesting. Maybe they were executed and evidences destroyed.

Died out quickly, interesting. Maybe they were executed and evidences destroyed.

If that were the case, I wonder why we preserved records of them?

One can always argue like this:

One can say that Caliph Omar burned all the true Qurans so that he would monopolize and change Islam. I have heard these arguments too.

But I figure: it's wishful thinking. And there's no proof.

So no need to accept poor arguments. Both our religions are rich enough to provide responsible arguments.

Useless you try to paint Christianity as a monolite, when is not
It has the same divisions and contraddictions one can find in Islam and Muslims
Sunday function has its priority but is not only the only occasion of prayer.
Catholics [am not sure you are one ] pray every day in church or in the house
They pray to statues, pictures, pieces of clothes belonged to Saints
Authorities maybe do not approve of it but do not even do much to discourage it because they very well know that their religion is based on that : spirituality embodied in real persons
You can ask to your converts
This is what they find appealing in it : they find the concept of Jesus you built, fitting in their idea of God close to man
They need substance to believe
Yes we rever Muhammad :PBUH: above all the Prophets cause he was chosen among all, to deliver the message and to teach us the ways to follow God teachings but we do not venerate him as partner of God because it wouldn't make a sense
He was and will remain a man like us : God himself in the Quran showed his fragility


Ummm...you seem to be missing the point once again. We can argue back and forth about which religion is truer and whether Christians or Muslims have a truer concept of God.

But: the point I made was that it's ridiculous to say that "Worship in Christianity is usually devoid of God's name". That's not an argument; that's just a falsehood.

You can argue, if you wish, that Catholics and Orthodox worship saints and images. You can argue that the Trinity makes partners for God. You can argue that Jesus being divine is wish-fulfillment.

All arguments I believe are false, but reasonable arguments. But to say we USUALLY don't address our prayers to God is ridiculous.

Pater noster, act of charity and act of contrition are addressed to God alone
All the rest are to Virgin Mary and trinity
And there's a large number of invocations directed to Saints cause people believe they can either intercede to God or have the ability to perform miracles directly
Am speaking of Catholics obviously since I was raised like one
All this is confusing cause gives the idea that God is not one or needs others help

Pater noster, act of charity and act of contrition are addressed to God alone
All the rest are to Virgin Mary and trinity
And there's a large number of invocations directed to Saints cause people believe they can either intercede to God or have the ability to perform miracles directly
Am speaking of Catholics obviously since I was raised like one
All this is confusing cause gives the idea that God is not one or needs others help
Actually, I've never seen it that way. Never seen that God needs help. But rather, maybe, that WE need help passing the message along.

I've never prayed to a single saint, or picture or relic. I've never felt I had a problem getting ANY messages along to anyone or anything. ;)
But maybe one day I might.

We dont pray to help god and we dont pray for any saints... -_-

this debate over prayer to saints goes on amongst christians as well. The short of it is, we dont pray to Saints, rather for them to pray for us. Asking holy people to pray for you is not a bad idea, and muslims do it as well, asking for imams to pray for them, it is not wrong. I am a catholic as well, all prayers are to God, or asking someone to pray for you.

this debate over prayer to saints goes on amongst christians as well. The short of it is, we dont pray to Saints, rather for them to pray for us. Asking holy people to pray for you is not a bad idea, and muslims do it as well, asking for imams to pray for them, it is not wrong. I am a catholic as well, all prayers are to God, or asking someone to pray for you.
Not sure where you got this idea that we can ask Imams to pray for us
Is clearly stated in Quran no one can intercede for us when we pray here on earth
The intercession in the judgement day is something else
I think the only case in which some of us [but is not approved] ask someone else to pray is Istikhara
This why people think is incredibly difficult to get and interpret an answer but is wrong
Same goes to Christians : surely the religion is only one
Due to the history and traditions of my country and the great contribute Saints gave to agiography, when I was Catholic I've always prayed asking them to intercede and many times I directly prayed on them
I see from other members this is not usual practice, but that depends on how they've been taught the religion

I get the idea that imams pray for people from my muslim friends, Also everytime I go to church, my muslim friends ask me to pray for them, is what they are asking me wrong?

I get the idea that imams pray for people from my muslim friends, Also everytime I go to church, my muslim friends ask me to pray for them, is what they are asking me wrong?
You are quite correct and am not sure we Muslims are correct when we do this
Will check on my books or wait someone more knowledged than me here to answer
But I think you talking of invocation here, which makes a slight technical difference compared to Catholics prayers