The below survey shows the difference among Christians regarding the most fundamental issue in any religion: Who is God? They are still disputing that central issue, so in this survey, 61.29% of Anglican bishops said that Christians were not obliged to believe Jesus was God, while 35.48% said they had to view Jesus as both God and man. 3.23% declined to answer. If they cannot agree about this point, what is the benefit of debating anything else?

“Say, ‘O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah [i.e. by obeying one another in disobedience to Allah].” [Aal `Imran, 3:64]


Shock survey of Anglican bishops

LONDON: More then half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84

[Quoted in Dr. Bilal Philips, “The True Message of Jesus”, Dar al-Fatah]


“Say, ‘He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent.”
[Al-Ikhlas (Sincerity), 112]http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=650

Lol, Ice Tea!

This is not a survey of Christians! This is a survey of Anglican bishops, one very small segment of Christianity.

Anglicans are famous for thinking that you don't have to believe in anything! :p They are a compromise church formed for political reasons.

And in modern times, they have fallen to pieces. Many of them hardly even believe in God at all. Just in feminism, homosexuality and things like that. The Church is shrinking rapidly in the West, precisely because they don't believe in much.

But believing Anglicans are breaking away from these bishops, many under the leadership of courageous Africans like Bishop Akinola of Nigeria. The Anglican Church in Africa, a believing Church, is growing swiftly.

Akinola certainly believes that Jesus is God and all the rest of the Gospel too. As do many, many Anglicans.

But they must have strong reason or evidence to believe that Jesus is not God, don't you think so?

What makes you sure you are right and they are wrong?

No, I don't think they have any "strong reason". I think they have trouble believing in anything. Do they have a "strong reason" to believe in gay rights? :p They're just politicians trying to satisfy everyone and offend no one.... And nobody listens to them.

Why do I think they are wrong? Because that's not Christianity, that's why. Not the faith of Christians over time, not the faith we find in Scripture, not the faith we find in the early days of the Church, not the faith we find among the overwhelming majority of Christians today. And not the Faith that comes to us, enlightened by God's light.

I can find Muslims who believe in Quran only and in no hijab and that the Quran is historically conditioned. But it doesn't impress you.

I don't blame you. But these silly bishops don't impress me either. Or anybody else! :p

Maybe they will say if Jesus is God he will have knowledge of the day of Judgement, but he doesn't have such knowledge, right?

He didn't in His Human Nature have that knowledge in His conscious mind, that's what He meant.

He is the Son, not the Father. He has access to such knowledge, but everything He gets, He gets from the Father's will.

Anyway, these bishops didn't say THEY didn't believe that Jesus was God. Did they?

Does that means Jesus (the God) is powerless without the Father?

They said he was "God’s supreme agent", which can mean a prophet, right?

No, it means He always wishes to do the Father's Will. His being comes from the Father and is united to the Father in an absolute sense. And we should learn to follow the pattern that He showed for us as a Man.

Don't know of any such reference as "God's supreme agent." But we often call the Father "God" since He is the source of Godhead. So we speak of Jesus having a relationship to God, meaning that He has a relationship to God the Father.

No, it means He always wishes to do the Father's Will.

That means he can't do anything without Father permision, then how can he be God?

He will always do what the Father requires and the Father will always give Him what He asks for.

There is total unity between them. Unity. One God. Remember?

If there is total unity then there no need for permission, it doesn't look like total unity.

There is Unity, but not Sameness.

And so there is Asking and Receiving, Knowing and Anticipating.

Freedom and Obedience.

FROM God there is no Submission. But IN God there is Command and Submission, freely given and freely received.

There is Love in God, not just from God.

There is Love and Motion and Exchange.

God is Love.

Ah, how wonderful the Catholic Faith is. How beautiful and inspiring, and how it fills me with happiness and gratitude.

If there is no Sameness, what are the differences?

The differences are simply of personal identity. One person is not another.

But there is complete Harmony and understanding between them since each has the fullness of Godhead.

God has Three complete "ways" of being Himself, which are the Three Divine Persons.

God has Three complete "ways" of being Himself, which are the Three Divine Persons.

That means Jesus doesn't need permission, otherwise there is contradiction.

No; why?

Power is one thing; the exercise of power in love is another.

Theoretically, Jesus doesn't "need" permission. He "could" take the knowledge into His consciousness.

But why would He?

First, in God there is no sin or struggle for power. The Father's desire is His Desire.

Second, He is trying to model human obedience for us. So He is teaching us that we have to function without complete understanding in our brains all the time.

This is a sublime lesson and as we see rooted in the very nature of God. In God Himself there is Humility and not Pride. So why should we sin and be too proud to follow where God Himself goes?

Jeff, you are just analayzing and assuming things based on no evidence.

If Jesus is God then he will have the knowledge of the day of judgement.

How about the miracles he performed, he did it by his will or his father will?

Conclusion: God who needs permission is not God, common sense.

I'm not supposed to analyze? :p You analyze when you ask; I analyze when I answer!

I think that's just a conversation. :)

I am not "assuming". I am explaining. You say it is impossible. I say it is possible and I explain how.

If Jesus is God, but also a Man, He will have both a Divine Mind and Human One. In His Human Mind, knowledge must be accessed, just as we access it. There is the conscious and the unconscious. So when Jesus says, "only the Father knows, not the Son", He just means that the Father doesn't wish Him to have that knowledge available to Him as a Man while He is on earth. It isn't necessary, just as all knowlege isn't necessary to other Men on earth.

The Son's will is never in opposition to the Father's Will. The miracles He did on earth were by His Own Power exercised in the Will of the Father.

The Son doesn't "need" permission, but He always asks for it in Love.

Common sense? That would tell us the earth is flat. But it isn't. That space is straight. But it's curved. That time is absolute. But it's relative.

If the universe God created is mysterious and difficult for us to understand, I would expect the Great God Who created it would be even more so.

So when Jesus says, "only the Father knows, not the Son", He just means that the Father doesn't wish Him to have that knowledge available to Him as a Man while He is on earth.

See that is what I meant, you are explaning things based on your own opinion, you don't have valid evidence that that is what he meants.

Now you believe that Jesus is not on earth, does it means he have the knowledge of the day of judgement?

I am answering you based on agelong Christian "tafsir" of the Bible, representing the Tradition of our teachers, just as you answer based on your teachers.

But anyway, all I am doing is refuting you. You say that it MUST mean this. I am showing how it doesn't have to mean what you say. You are saying there is only one intepretation of the words and that they don't fit Christian teaching. I am showing there is another interpretation that fits Christian teaching perfectly well.

You mean does Jesus now with the Father have access in His Human Mind to that knowledge? :p I don't know. Ha, ha, ha. Why should I know that?

Why should it matter to me to know all things in the Mind of My God?

I am content as I am. I am following the example of my Lord, Who on earth was content not to know with His conscious mind the time of the Judgement. :)

You are doing a very good job, Ice Tea. Keep it up!

Why it doesn't matter to you? if you believe that Jesus is God then it means he should have the knowledge of the day of judgement, otherwsie how can he be God?

Well, didn't we already cover this? That the Son doesn't have the knowledge, only the Father, just means that the Son as a Man doesn't have that knowledge in His conscious awareness, because He is modelling human existence for us, so we can follow His pattern.

Whether He now has that knowledge as a Human in His Human Consciousness in Heaven at the Right Hand of the Father wouldn't matter one way or the other to me. I can't know everything in His mind and why should that worry me?