How many American President and noble person were killed by Christian tourist?
How many was about to assassinated?
Terrorism introduced by Christian in which year refer to quote “ oh, you though brutas”
Can any one enlighten us?

unfortunately im not as naive as some others who relate every stuff to religion... and even if some groups do their acts in the name of "god", is it really so? im looking forward to reading the coming replies.

Doctor Shamsery,

To be fair, I cannot recall an assassination by a Christian where the assailant was acting for a group who claimed to be doing the work of God. The phrase "Christian terrorist assassin" would be an odd one in current times. It would be churlish to deny that this is a more common abberation in the Islamic world at the moment.

Historically there has been plenty of "Christian terrorism" of course, but normally carried out by state actors rather than small splinter groups. Interesting subject though, even if not for the reasons you might have decided to post the thread ;)

also, I'm not aware of any Christian "tourist" that has assassinated in the name of religion.

To further elaborate on Mimo's comment and in order for Shamsery to understand this issue better, I recommend that shams read the following topic thoroughly.

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48011

I am also unaware of any Christian tourists who were terrorists.

However, I am aware of many Christian tourists who were killed by muslim terrorists

Shamsery,

To be fair, I cannot recall an assassination by a Christian where the assailant was acting for a group who claimed to be doing the work of God. The phrase "Christian terrorist assassin" would be an odd one in current times. It would be churlish to deny that this is a more common abberation in the Islamic world at the moment.

Historically there has been plenty of "Christian terrorism" of course, but normally carried out by state actors rather than small splinter groups. Interesting subject though, even if not for the reasons you might have decided to post the thread ;)

Yes, Respected mimosa,
there has been Good try Sir, not now.Well let us move.
I think till now such formula has not invented that terrorism is to be conducted in a group.
I request you remember Gun powder Plot and others I descried earlier.
Other Hot issue is there , Suicide Bombing.
Where it began and who were they.
Knowing fully you the people remains silent.
If a 50 years Arabs merry a 15 years girls , that become news headlines in western media but when a 55 years man rape 14 years girl the become a scoop news with a very low profile. I understand , this rape is very common and about 2000 rape is committing in New York everyday.
How much it comes per minute Mr Mimosa?
Any way,
“Allah (swt) help those who help themselves.”
Do we do that?

There was a thread, which very kindly locked by Moderators.
You can get some idea about Christian terrorism.
Hitman posted link, church is associating with the terrorism in Tripura.
What is IRA?
It is you , your media portraying Islam is a religion of terrorist and unfortunately some
black sheep voluntarily associating this propaganda.
Let us know , when this terrorism began and by whom?
There is black sheep in every community, society, and religion.
Dropping the bomb on innocent civilian is not terrorism?
Look to old edition Oxford Dictionary the meaning of terrorism and compare with present edition.
Thing will be clear to you.

According to


Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
Terrorism
1795, in specific sense of "government intimidation during the Reign of Terror in France" (1793-July 1794), from Fr. terrorisme (1798), from L. terror

General sense of "systematic use of terror as a policy" is first recorded in Eng. 1798. Terrorize "coerce or deter by terror" first recorded 1823. Terrorist in the modern sense dates to 1947, especially in reference to Jewish tactics against the British in Palestine -- earlier it was used of extremist revolutionaries in Russia (1866); and Jacobins during the French Revolution (1795) -- from Fr. terroriste. The tendency of one party's terrorist to be another's guerilla or freedom fighter was noted in ref. to the British action in Cyprus (1956) and the war in Rhodesia (1973). The word terrorist has been applied, at least retroactively, to the Maquis resistance in occupied France in World War II (e.g. in the "Spectator," Oct. 20, 1979).

According to Compact Oxford English Dictionary.
“Terrorist”

A person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

DERIVATIVES terrorism noun.

It is my mistake, those Christian killed all those president for pleasure or there were practicing target as a part of training.


Is there any bigger terrorist than Bus, at least recent survey report, Poll cast 75% vote calling him the highest terrorist in his own country.

Shams,

Can you list all the US Presidents that have been specifically killed in the name of Christianity?

Hope is clear

PS As a Muislim invented algebra, does that mean that Islam is responsible for Hirsohima?

Yes, Mr. Shamsery, I think the question is not really about the religion of the killers but what is their motivation?

That is true regardless of religion.

Shamsery,

Can we first agree on the terms of reference ?

Do you think there is a difference between a SECULAR TERRORIST and a RELIGIOUS TERRORIST ?

For example consider the following :

1.

Salman Khan's jeep runs over pavement dwellers, one dead; actor surrenders


Film star Salman Khan, who ran his Land Cruiser (Mh 01 DA 32) over some pavement dwellers in Bandra, Mumbai, on Saturday morning surrendered before the Bandra police more than eight hours after the accident.

Salman was taken for medical tests while his lawyer Waris Pathan secured bail in the Bandra police station.
Earlier, in the early hours of Saturday, he drove his jeep over some people sleeping outside American Express Bakery on Hill Road junction in Bandra, Mumbai, killing one and causing serious injuries to three persons...

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/sep/28khan.htm

2.


Iranian in US campus 'car attack'


An Iranian student has been charged with attempting to murder nine people with a car in the US to "avenge the deaths of Muslims", he told police.


Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, 22, drove a rented Jeep into a crowd at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill on Friday, police said. Mr Taheri-azar, a graduate of the university, then called police to surrender, officers said....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4775544.stm

Do you see the difference ?

If we were to say that Salman Khan was a Muslim terrorist that would be wrong, since his religion had nothing to do with his actions.

Not so in the second case, where Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar carried out his violence specifically in the name of Islam.

I hope this clears things up for you.

Now I would still like to know :

1. Can you list all the US Presidents that have been specifically killed in the name of Christianity?
2. I am still interested in knowing about these 'Christian tourists' who are apparently not being good visitors and apparently not spending their $ wisely.

Thanks.

Please try to respond DIRECTLY to the questions asked without the usual flimflammery and diversion you are so good at.

Yes, Mr. Shamsery, I think the question is not really about the religion of the killers but what is their motivation?

That is true regardless of religion.

They will not agree with you . I am afraid , soon you will be outcasted.

Shams,

Can you list all the US Presidents that have been specifically killed in the name of Christianity?

Hope is clear

PS As a Muislim invented algebra, does that mean that Islam is responsible for Hirsohima?

Do you ask me to open a thread, relation between Christian and terrorism from 17th century?
Ask your Moderator team to unlock the thread.
Honestly you enjoy a wonderful immunity here too.


I shall come back to Mr Pino.

I think that killers are killers and terrorists are terrorists.
I don't hold in view a motivation even though a court may do so. For me, a person who kills a soul or many souls should be punished whether he is Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist...Now if you are aiming at trying to get out the 'terroists' who claimed they were following religious motifs then nobody could help you with that. The list is endless.

Shamsery,
1.

Salman Khan's jeep runs over pavement dwellers, one dead; actor surrenders


Film star Salman Khan, who ran his Land Cruiser (Mh 01 DA 32) over some pavement dwellers in Bandra, Mumbai, on Saturday morning surrendered before the Bandra police more than eight hours after the accident.

Salman was taken for medical tests while his lawyer Waris Pathan secured bail in the Bandra police station.
Earlier, in the early hours of Saturday, he drove his jeep over some people sleeping outside American Express Bakery on Hill Road junction in Bandra, Mumbai, killing one and causing serious injuries to three persons...

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/sep/28khan.htm



What if Salman Khan CLAIMED that he did it in the name of God?
I think the only difference is that the second idiot justified his hate for humanity by claiming to do what he was asked by the creator of humanity!

Okay.

Let's forget Islam.

But imagine there is a religion or cult with a leader who tells his hundreds of followers to commit suicide for religious reasons. And they do, killing their children as well. The is what happened some years ago at Jonestown.

I think we have to be willing to talk about religious motivations. And to think about them.

If someone is motivated to live a dignified life and to help his neighbors and serve his family and he says it's because he found these ideas in his religion, we want to take him seriously.

If somebody says he is motivated to kill people because of what he read in his holy book, we have to take that seriously too.

And if there is a large movement of similar minded individuals who agree, we have to take it more seriously.

It might be "wrongly interpreted religion", but it's religion.

Shamsery,

Can we first agree on the terms of reference ?

Do you think there is a difference between a SECULAR TERRORIST and a RELIGIOUS TERRORIST ?



Very simple and strait.
I am not going put any label.

Truth is truth.
Terrorism is Terrorism.
Terrorist is Terrorist.
It has no religion, no creed no cast, no color.

Don’t mislead the young’s please

The word Terrorist bear different meaning, when a robber, thug see the police man he get terrorized. This is good for society.

When a bad man , evil person see an honest , strait god fearing person he get terrorized, that is good.

When some criminals rob innocent people for his evil desire that is bad.
When some one or group kills innocent people for their vested interest, benefit ,.for evil interest is bad

So it is like a knife by which you can slice fruits for you or you can stab others to rob , to fulfil your evil desire.

Okay.

Let's forget Islam.

But imagine there is a religion or cult with a leader who tells his hundreds of followers to commit suicide for religious reasons. And they do, killing their children as well. The is what happened some years ago at Jonestown.

I think we have to be willing to talk about religious motivations. And to think about them.

If someone is motivated to live a dignified life and to help his neighbors and serve his family and he says it's because he found these ideas in his religion, we want to take him seriously.

If somebody says he is motivated to kill people because of what he read in his holy book, we have to take that seriously too.

And if there is a large movement of similar minded individuals who agree, we have to take it more seriously.

It might be "wrongly interpreted religion", but it's religion.


Dear Jeff,

Why we are on the board?

Very few wish to exchange views to develop a bridge of wisdom , knowledge.
Few just gossip and never express their findings

I found Mr Jeff try to understand, review and logically say black is black, white is white.
My request to others,


If you are here to gossip, for useless talk , then OK .

But if we take this particular media English Sabla as medium, then we are to serious.
You have question and that deserve specific answer.
More over , is your post not self contradictory?

It might be "wrongly interpreted religion", but it's religion.

This is ambiguity ,something amusing to me also.

I didn't feel like I was gossipping. And I'm sorry in any case if I offended you.

I was just pointing out that some people are inspired by their understanding of their religions to kill innocents.

If someone listens to Osama bin Laden or his friends, they will hear that Islam commands them to wage jihad and that jihad involves fighting against those who are against Islam. Those who are "innocent non-Muslims" are never truly innocent because they are people of hellfire. And if Muslims die, well, they will go to paradise so it doesn't matter.

If you talk to the guys in Britain who blow themselves up on buses and things, that is their understanding. And that is the way they understand the Quran and Islam.

Is it the wrong way to understand? I hope so! But they didn't do it for money. They didn't do it for fun. They did it for their idea of religion.

Why don't we say they are religious terrorists, but we agree that their idea of religion is wrong and inhumane?

, they will hear that Islam commands them to wage jihad and that jihad involves fighting against those who are against Islam.
?

The conception demands to know the truth and correct meaning.
You are doing Jihad here too.
If some one wish to do something for the shake of religion, he/she will have to know , does his/ her religion allow it, permit it, endorse it?
If it is against the basic spirit , fundamental of religion , surly that can not be treated as religious act.
Qur’an is not impossible to understand.
Am I clear to you?

Well, but if you get in a room with these guys, they will quote lots of Quran and ahadith to you in support of their beliefs. You will not persuade them you are right...they will say you are ignorant and Western-influenced.

No, I can't decide which one is the correct interpretation since I am not a Muslim. If Osama or Khomeini says this is Islam and you say that is Islam, I cannot say who is right.

I like your interpretation better, that is true.

Jeff just about summed it up perfectly.

What say you Shamsery ?

Who are you to tell us which interpretation is correct ?

Well, but if you get in a room with these guys, they will quote lots of Quran and ahadith to you in support of their beliefs. You will not persuade them you are right...they will say you are ignorant and Western-influenced.

No, I can't decide which one is the correct interpretation since I am not a Muslim. If Osama or Khomeini says this is Islam and you say that is Islam, I cannot say who is right.

I like your interpretation better, that is true.

Very simple way, forget OBL, Khomani and any other person.

The Holy Qur’an has English translation.
Get the copy or give me your email address.
I shall mail you as attachment ,Sorry I have no link , other can help Mr Jeff to forward a link, beside this I shall search link for you.
Just read with concentration as a book of tells or literature.
You yourself will understand.
The damage this people has done to Islam , Non Muslim could no do it during 200 years.
Trust me, Shamsery don’t talk without proof , of course you may not agree or accept my prrof , that is surely your will.

I do read the Quran in English translation.

But for me as a nonbeliever, there is no single obvious interpretation of the passages in it and in the ahadith that you would probably point to. There are arguments in both directions.

As I say, I very much prefer your ideas of Islam and I hope that they will be the dominating ones among Muslims in the years to come. And of course, there is much that is powerful and beautiful in the Quran and Ahadith and that inspires true religious devotion among Muslims.

But I cannot say that it is clear to me or that the disputed passages have only one possible reading. It is different for a believer like you.

Thanks but no thanks Shamsery, we all have access to an english language translation of the Quran.

Now answer the question.

HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHICH INTERPRETATION IS THE TRUE ONE.

Shamsery,

Are you saying that all Muslims who interpret the Koran in a different way from you are not really Muslims?

Maybe you are saying that you have no responsibility for Muslims who interpret the Koran in a different way from you?

Or something else perhaps?

PS Here is a bottom line fact:

Many, many, many people (currently) kill in the name of Islam.........and all of these people would consider themselves to be Muslims

I think the difficulty is that for Mr. Shamsery, the way these folks think and talk seems so completely different from everything they have been taught about Islam that they cannot believe that those who teach something different are in good faith.

This is quite a common reaction among Muslims.

HNY Jeff,

Is that like saying:

"It's got nothing to do with me because they are not real Muslims"?

or

"Its not my responsibility to do anything because they are not real Muslims"

or

"I don't care what they say or do because they are not real Muslims"

or

"A much easier way of coping with people specifically committing murder in the name of Islam is to box them as non-muslims"

Shamsery,

Are you saying that all Muslims who interpret the Koran in a different way from you are not really Muslims?


I did not expect such an oblivious comment from you, at least.

Shamsery,


PS Here is a bottom line fact:

Many, many, many people (currently) kill in the name of Islam.........and all of these people would consider themselves to be Muslims

Listen very clearly and note it down in your memory for future.
I can bear responsibility , I can try to explain , interpret as tiny Mosquito the Holly Qur’an and Islam but no way the Muslims you call.

HNY Jeff,

Is that like saying:

"It's got nothing to do with me because they are not real Muslims"?

or

"Its not my responsibility to do anything because they are not real Muslims"

or

"I don't care what they say or do because they are not real Muslims"

or

"A much easier way of coping with people specifically committing murder in the name of Islam is to box them as non-muslims"


Well, those sound like excuses.

In some cases, it may be a matter of excuses.

But in many cases, it's just a matter of cognitive dissonance. Zacarias Mussawi, with his vicious cruelty, seems the exact opposite of what they understand Islam teaches.

So they conclude that he must just be pretending and making excuses about religion and the real reason must be something else.

I think they need to go more deeply into the question. But it's painful and confusing for them.

mr pinnochio,
Are ready to go for comparative study, how many human beings has been killed since the inception of Christianity?
Have you forgotten when the terrorist act began and by whom?
Perhaps these fanatics are natural successor of you.

What is answer of my original question?
Yes or No.

I think the difficulty is that for Mr. Shamsery, the way these folks think and talk seems so completely different from everything they have been taught about Islam that they cannot believe that those who teach something different are in good faith.

This is quite a common reaction among Muslims.

Mr Jeff,
I am not defending OBL.
Perhaps I hate him, reason may be different.
If get the occasion I shall explain and it is not necessary that other will have to agree with me.

You know we are inheriting British Law till date with some amendments.
It says that let 10 criminal go out but one innocent should not be punished.
If you surf the web site of US state department or CIA, you will find OBL is a prime suspect.
They have not mentioned he is guilty.
A prosecution could be conducted of an absentee.
International allows it.
Instead of trail they invaded Afghanistan and killed thousands of innocent people, woman, kids, elderly people.
Mixed up the religion just to invade others land and expansion of colony.
It has nothing to do with religion, it is related with Arms factory, Oil, Land top run pipe line and secured the interest of corporate business houses.
Some time all these are American agent serving their interest.
Please note American citizen and American government do not bear the same meaning to me.
Do you believe that a man cannot be trace out?

Shamsery, you're playing the good old Islamic Denial quickstep.

In another thread it was put quite nicely.

When France banned the hijab from state funded schools, the muslim community was up in arms because they claimed that this was discrimination against their religious beliefs.. ie Islamic beliefs.

When a poor girl is killed by her father because she refused to wear the hijab, the muslim community is quick to say that the hijab issue is a cultural practice and should not be confused with Islam.

This is know as having your cake and eating it too.

The bottom line is that if violence is carried out in the name of Islam, we will continue to label it as Islamic violence.

Whether you like it or not.