OK. When do we get the Analytical reply you promised?

We have read these verses too many times for them to make a difference. Now we need some OPINION from you .

None can speak better than He.

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allāh dislike it.61:9


It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allāh dislike it.61:9

Mr Wudjab,

I shall tell you tales how these Missionary approach , how they fix up the target group and what they do for them.
I like it.
I give them big hand.
Now you see the backlash comes.
But why?
That is very important point.
Remember that Christianity is not the first growing religion.
I have just selected few countries rest you can surf.
I start from Bangladesh;

Convinced that villagers are being paid to convert, Buddhists and Muslims lash out.

As Christianity spreads in this Muslim-majority country, an increasingly frequent refrain is heard in various quarters: “People become Christians after getting huge amounts of money as a reward for conversion.”
The rumor is something more than mean; it has served as the rationale for violence against Christians not just from Muslims, but from Buddhists who make up less than 1 percent of the population.
Subash Mondol, a supervisor of the Christian Life Bangladesh CLB “Jesus Film” team in Khagrachori district, told Compass that in early September tribal villagers decided to kidnap a CLB worker after hearing a rumor that he had received money for converting. Not finding any money on 23-year-old Cinku Marma, who converted from Buddhism 14 months ago, they instead assaulted him on September 6 as he was en route to a village to show the film.

Compass Direct News : INDIA - ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY REACHES COSMOPOLITAN POCKETS.

Violence and discrimination against Christians in India is reaching beyond uneducated, rural villages – Hindu extremists are increasingly targeting middle class churches in cosmopolitan centers.
A mob of at least 150 unidentified people damaged a Catholic church under construction in the national capital on December 5, threatening to break the bones of the site foreman and laborers. The attackers told the workers plainly that they feared people would convert to Christianity if the church were built.
They manhandled the foreman, damaged a generator and other machines and scattered building materials.

Cousin of Pakistani ‘blasphemer’ receives death threat.

November 22nd, 2007 — Pakistan, Islam, persecution, Christian
By Sheraz Khurram Khan
Special Correspondent for ASSIST News Service in Pakistan
KASUR, LAHORE, PAKISTAN (ANS) — A Pakistani Christian man has received a letter threatening him “to convert to Islam or die” after he dared sheltering his cousin Martha Bibi, a woman, who was accused of blasphemy in January and later freed on bail in May of this year.
Martha served a term of 3 months and 13 days in jail after she was accused of passing derogatory remarks against the Muslim Holy Prophet, Mohammad.
Bibi started living with her cousin Mushtaq, 27, in the district of Kasur,
Sohail Johnson prays for Martha and her family
55 km southeast of Lahore, after her release. The young Christian man received an anonymous letter warning him of “consequences” for sheltering Martha on October 11.
“….if you do not convert to Islam within 10 days and admit … your mistake, you will be surely put to death. We will kill the blasphemer woman [Martha Bibi], her husband and those who shelter them,” the Sharing Life Ministry Pakistan Chief, Sohail Johnson, quoted the letter as saying.
Teacher and part-time evangelist, Mushtaq told the ministry that he feared harm from the radical Islamists but he risked welcoming his hapless cousin at his place. Johnson said he visited Martha Bibi and family on 17 November 2007.
Beginning of the ordeal
Bibi confided to the ministry that soon after they had leveled the blasphemy charges against her, hundreds of angry Muslims attacked her home.
“My husband managed to flee with our children but the mob caught hold of me and handed me over to the police,” she told the SLMP.
“I was taken to district jail in Kasur at about 3:00 a.m. A female staff member locked me in a dark cell.”
Maltreatment
Bibi also alleged that she was deprived of food in the prison for a couple of days.
“The female warden of the jail hated me,” she was reported as saying. “I was kept in solitary confinement in a dark and dirty cell.”
Sohail told ANS that the blasphemy-accused woman only got food after a prison officer happened to visit her.
Martha Bibi disclosed to him that her family members were not allowed to visit her during her confinement.
“Only SLMP’s Pastor, Munir Phool, has been visiting me, and he also gave me a Bible which I was able to read in my cell,” she said.
Sohail said Bibi also alleged that the food brought to her by her loved ones was instead confiscated by the jail staff and instead given to the Muslim female prisoners.
Guilt and Concern
Sohail told ANS that Bibi felt both guilty and concerned after death threats were hurled at her cousin Mushtaq, who she stayed with after being freed from jail.
“He is receiving death threats because of me,” the SLMP quoted the woman as saying. “Even this place is no less than a prison for me. I do not feel comfortable going out to even shop for vegetables. My lawyer has also suggested that I should not go out.”
Regular Bible Reading
Martha Bibi told the ministry that she had been reading Bible during her imprisonment and also that she would pray for the protection of her children. She said of all her children she missed Maria, her youngest girl child, the most. The Chief Coordinator of the Sharing Life Ministry Pakistan prayed for Martha and her family to help them continue walking with the Lord.
The writer is a freelance journalist based in Pakistan

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them.


From www.haaretz.com via the Religious News Blog
A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem’s Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

Has persecution finally come to the Church in America?

December 10th, 2007 | United States, persecution, Christian
By Dan Wooding
Founder of ASSIST Ministries
LAKE FOREST, CA (ANS) — Like so many of you, I have been following the shocking news of the two shootings today (Sunday) in Colorado.
The first shooting took place at the Youth With A Mission (YWAM) training center in Arvada, Colorado, when a gunman killed two staff members, early Sunday after being told he couldn’t spend the night.
A statement from YWAM said the deceased were Tiffany Johnson, 26, from Minnesota, and Philip Crouse, 24, from Alaska. Both served as staff members at the YWAM Arvada campus. The third victim, Dan Griebenow, 24, has a bullet in his neck and is listed in critical but stable condition. The fourth victim Charlie Blanch, 22, suffered gunshot wounds to his legs.
About 12 hours later, a gunman fatally shot a person at The New Life Church, a megachurch in Colorado Springs before a guard killed him, police said. The gunman at the New Life Church was shot and killed by a church security guard after entering the church’s main foyer with high-powered rifle shortly before 1 p.m. and opening fire, Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers said.
Myers says one other person died at the scene the victim was believed to be a teenage girl.
Four additional shooting victims were taken to the hospital, some with life-threatening injuries, Myers said.
SWAT officers searching the New Life campus found several suspicious devices. Myers said they were conducting a second search Sunday evening.
At the time of writing, it was not immediately known whether the Colorado Springs shooting was related to the crime in Arvada, a Denver suburb about 65 miles to the north. Authorities in Arvada said no one had been captured in the shootings there.
YWAM has a mission training program has a small office at the church’s World Prayer Center on the New Life campus.
Many will be asking if this is the beginning of persecution of Evangelical Christians in America or if these were just isolated incidents.
If it is the start of persecution here, I wonder if we are ready for what lies ahead? Will Americans think twice about going to church in the future knowing that a crazed gunman could repeat these atrocities?
For millions around the world, they have faced these dangers for many years in countries like India, Iran, Iraq, all over the Middle East and even in the country of my birth, Nigeria, where I was born of British missionary parents.
During a recent trip to India, I asked a pastor how we could pray for him. He paused briefly and then said, “Please don’t pray that the persecution will stop. We consider it a privilege to suffer for Christ.”
Brother Andrew was once traveling in a restricted country and he was asked, “How many pastors in your country [Holland] are in prison for their faith?” He replied, “I don’t think there are any.” The Christian leader then said, “Why not? The Bibles says that those who live Godly lives in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution!”
I believe that suffering and persecution are part of the “normal Christian life” and that we, in the United States, have been spared up until now.
My plea to the Evangelical Church here in America is that we prepare for what might be ahead and unite under the banner of Jesus Christ who showed so much love for us.
And please don’t stop going to church. Let us realize that his “banner over us is love,” and we must not allow the gunmen to stop us worshiping the risen Savior.
http://thepersecutiontimes.com/has-persecution-finally-come-to-the-church-in-america/2007/12/10/

North Korean Christians arrested; current status unknown.

November 9th, 2007 — Korea, persecution, Christian
Press Release from Voice of the Martyrs
In a highly unusual press conference in Pyongyang in September, the National Security Service of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) announced the arrest of “foreign spies” and “native citizens working for a foreign intelligence service.” The Voice of the Martyrs (VOM), a ministry serving Christians in restricted nations who are persecuted for their faith, announced today that those arrested in North Korea were in fact Christian believers and not spies.
The security service spokesman at the press conference, Li Su Gil, said that those arrested “carried out the missions by means of diverse espionage equipment.” He did not name any of those arrested.
VOM has identified the following North Korean Christians who have disappeared and are believed to have been arrested by government authorities:
· Onseong, North Hamgyong Province:
· Chul Huh, male
· Chun-Il Jang, male, 39
· Young-Su Jin, male, 32
· Myung-Chul Kim, male, 36
· Nam-Suk Kang, male, 48
· Young-Yae Lee, female, 37
· Hoeryong, North Hamgyong Province
· San-Ho Kang, male, 36Cheongjin, North Hamgyong Province:
· Mi-Hae Park, female, 30
· Suk-Chun Suh, male, 29
These North Korean Christians had started a portrait photography studio to help support themselves, and had registered their businesses with appropriate government authorities. According to VOM sources working in North Korea, they were not involved in espionage activities. It is believed that equipment taken by the government was in fact photography equipment used in their portrait work.
“Following Jesus Christ is considered treason in North Korea, where the government mandates that worship is reserved for deceased dictator Kim Il Sung and his son, the current dictator, Kim Jong Il,” said Todd Nettleton, spokesperson for VOM. “The Voice of the Martyrs is proud to stand with Christ’s followers in North Korea, and deeply concerned for the well-being of our brothers and sisters there. We call on the North Korean government to release these Christian believers, who were involved in legitimate business activities to support themselves and their families.”
The Voice of the Martyrs has been actively involved in helping North Korean Christians for decades. Among the projects the ministry has carried out for North Korea is the launch of thousands of “scripture balloons,” mylar balloons filled with helium and printed on either side with scripture passages. VOM has conducted other projects to help North Korean Christians but cannot discuss details publicly to protect the safety of VOM workers and contacts inside North Korea.
VOM sources do not know the whereabouts of the arrested believers. It is possible that they have already been tried and executed.
“We pray that they are alive,” said Nettleton. “But we know it is possible that they have finished their race on earth and gone on to their eternal reward in heaven. We encourage Christians everywhere to pray for our brothers and sisters in North Korea, who must constantly face the threat of arrest, torture and execution simply for living out their faith in Jesus Christ.”
Please pray for our brothers and sisters in North Korea

Violence Against Christians on the Increase in Turkey

October 5th, 2007 — Turkey, Compass Direct, persecution, Christian
Compass Direct reports that
Turkish Protestants have reported increasing attacks and threats in recent months despite claims by President Abdullah Gul this week that Christians in Turkey are not targeted.
Believers told Compass that threats have increased since two Turkish Christian converts and a German Christian were tortured and killed at Zirve Publishing House in Malatya on April 18. Neighbors have threatened Christian radio station workers in Ankara in recent weeks, and a visitor to Antalya’s Bible Church this summer attacked an elderly member with a chair.
Antalya Bible Church pastor Ramazan Arkan said that he is pursuing four court cases against Rasim Eryildiz, a construction worker who began threatening church members in May.
“He came approximately 15 times to harass us,” Arkan said. “Every time he’d come, we would complain to the police. They would arrest him and then let him go.”

If you click on the link can get more data.

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news%E2%8C%A9=en&length=long&idelement=5086

But for sure let me inform you, the way these missionaries preach Christianity in Bangladesh, I like that.

My head is spinning Shamsery long loooooong posts and intense . Will try to read them all .


“People become Christians after getting huge amounts of money as a reward for conversion.”
I wouldn’t mind to get the money and pretend I am a convert , if i was in their shoes ( Poverty , lack of education , etc..)

Too long man :)

So what do you think of these stories, shamsery?

You know, there have been places--for example Albania under the communists--in which the government was atheist and Christians and Muslims shared the experience of resisting persecution together and helping each other.

What do you think?

How much is the going rate for converts in the GCC ?

You know, usually those Fillipino's who appear on TV, specially during Radhan, telling of their wonderful conversion ?

You know, the same Filipinos who stop being muslim the moment they lanb back in Manila ?

You don't.

I do, I have even met some of them.

Mr. Pot. Meet Mr. Kettle. Also meet Mr. Black.

These sorts of things happen even in the case of genuine conversion. I know one guy who converted to Islam while working in the Sudan.

The instant he got off the plane back in America, he said to himself, "What? I'm not a MUSLIM!"

Now he's father of a very large Catholic family and runs an important program for the Archdiocese of New York.

I don't take numbers and trends all that seriously in any direction. There are always claims and counterclaims. We just have to wait and see what God has in store for the world...

Totally agree Jeff....we have to wait and see what GOD has in store not people. I think as long as we live a decent life and help others without strings attached that is the way it should be regardless of faith.

Unfortunately statistics is not of great help here!
I witnessed at least three conversions… I like it but I don’t get too excited…

There are many things that excite me more than the conversion about Islam like, IMO, Islam is the most religion where you find people get more religious as they get more educated… In the school I am attending all Muslim professors I know are more religious than the average Muslim… that excites me more than anything else!

So it is more about quality not quantity…

I don’t see any thing wrong with TV airing conversions…that happens in all religious TV/Radios.

Yes the missionaries work in Arabia wasn’t the most decent, they bribed people to convert and like I said once many well-known names in Oman converted and then reverted after Oil was discovered just like some preaching style within Islam... which I find the most idiotic…that kind of missions should be stopped!

And like Marianna and Jeff said, this is a matter in which God will not let the false to prevail…just work honestly before God and yourself…you will always be the winner…

Yes the missionaries work in Arabia wasn’t the most decent, they bribed people to convert and like I said once many well-known names in Oman converted and then reverted after Oil was discovered just like some preaching style within Islam... which I find the most idiotic…that kind of missions should be stopped!

And like Marianna and Jeff said, this is a matter in which God will not let the false to prevail…just work honestly before God and yourself…you will always be the winner…

Why that type of missionaries work will be stopped?

I welcome them from the core of my heart being a fundamentalist Muslim.

Marianna and Jeff said very correct. Didn't you see that in Holy Quran said it 1400 years before.

I agree with them...
I am talking about the Missionaries who came to Arabia with loads of cash to sell their religion...
Exploiting people's need by converting them should be stopped!

I agree with them...
I am talking about the Missionaries who came to Arabia with loads of cash to sell their religion...
Exploiting people's need by converting them should be stopped!

Did you ever examine the literature distributing, printed in Arabic calligraphy?
If you get chance to examine it , do it with full concentration and due care.

What a decisive forgery ?

I ask the Christian friend, did the Holy Bible or Jesus (Pbuh) permitted you to try to convert others through imposter’s method?

what good is converting others to a particular religion...unless there's a political movement.
i am catholic and maltese, and i know of a lot of fellow maltese who are missionaries who do their good work without disrupting a person's culture.
back here at home, we have refugee children who are muslim. i sit with them and before meals, get them to do the 'b'ismillah' ( sorry if i spelt that wrongly) i am catholic but by no means fundamentalist. i don't want to convert anybody, all i want is everybody to follow their religion properly. and religion, whatever it is, tells you to be tolerant, love thy neighbour, and share. anymore than that is personal interpretation.

what good is converting others to a particular religion...unless there's a political movement.
i am catholic and maltese, and i know of a lot of fellow maltese who are missionaries who do their good work without disrupting a person's culture.
back here at home, we have refugee children who are muslim. i sit with them and before meals, get them to do the 'b'ismillah' ( sorry if i spelt that wrongly) i am catholic but by no means fundamentalist. i don't want to convert anybody, all i want is everybody to follow their religion properly. and religion, whatever it is, tells you to be tolerant, love thy neighbour, and share. anymore than that is personal interpretation.

My regards and respect for you.
Apologize if my comment hart you,
You can’t be a good Catholic if you don’t believe, practice the fundamental of Catholicism.

What counts as "buying conversion"?

If I give someone a hundred dollars and before I give it to them I say, "I will give you this money if you become Christian", I guess that would be buying conversion.

But suppose I see a poor person suffering with nothing. I find them a place to stay, buy them clothes and food take them to the doctor. And then, I start telling them about God and Jesus and how to become a Christian.

That's what I believe, it makes me happy and I think it will make them happy too.

And they become a Christian.

Did I "buy their conversion"?

What counts as "buying conversion"?

If I give someone a hundred dollars and before I give it to them I say, "I will give you this money if you become Christian", I guess that would be buying conversion.

But suppose I see a poor person suffering with nothing. I find them a place to stay, buy them clothes and food take them to the doctor. And then, I start telling them about God and Jesus and how to become a Christian.

That's what I believe, it makes me happy and I think it will make them happy too.

And they become a Christian.

Did I "buy their conversion"?



Fried Jeff,
First part is clear offence and uncivilized, at least I believe.

Second part, You have two choice.
(a) you are serving humanity and if the person from other faith , don’t show up it is a charity of Christian , rater prove it that a human discharging his duty , nothing expecting any worldly reward or external award.
(b) With a certain motive you stated helping and then selling your products. Hope you know how to promote business.

I think I agree with you. :)

I think I agree with you. :)

Thanks,
This is rational approach.
We wish to reach to common term in between you and us.

My regards and respect for you.
Apologize if my comment hart you,
You can’t be a good Catholic if you don’t believe, practice the fundamental of Catholicism.
fundamentalist? as in killing people for my religion? no thanks.
you can't tell me what it takes to be a good catholic.
the basis is this : love thy neighbour as thyself.
if you can't do THAT, then you aren't a good catholic.

I agree with that, Minerva. But that's not all there is to it.

I don't think there is a conflict between loving people as you love yourself and sharing the Gospel with them in whatever way corresponds best to what they can hear.

So, I think I see what you are getting at and I agree with it. Preaching to people often pushes them in the other direction from the way they should move. And cramming things down people's throats doesn't usually work very well.

But I don't agree that all religions are equal or that it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you tolerate everyone else.

Algeria's Islamic MPs are with you shams ...

They want to make it law (http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1721763459) to stop it. Can't have people freely deciding what if any religion to follow. Naaa can't have that!

Look for some of that good ol "tolerant" violence if they can't get the gov to intervene.

Shams do you remember this thread (http://englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31329) ... :rolleyes:

Hello Saudi ... :hyper:

The notion of Algerian Muslims converting to Christianity for MONEY is faintly absurd. People in such circumstances risk death at the worst and shunning by family members at best. They become exiles in their own communities.

And really, how many of them are there? Millions? A few thousand at most.

I have talked to Muslim converts to Christianity. They mention the love of Jesus and their changed lives and the joy they have found. None of them talks about money because none of them got any!.

It's painful for us when people leave the religion we love and deeply believe in and embrace another. But it's an opportunity for us to do self-reflection: Have we been good enough Christians (or Muslims)? If we did better, then perhaps they would not have left.

So, we can be spurred on to deepen our own encounter with God and that will do everyone good. There can be a Holy Competition which is left in God's hands and no need for the shedding of blood.

I agree with that, Minerva. But that's not all there is to it.

I don't think there is a conflict between loving people as you love yourself and sharing the Gospel with them in whatever way corresponds best to what they can hear.

So, I think I see what you are getting at and I agree with it. Preaching to people often pushes them in the other direction from the way they should move. And cramming things down people's throats doesn't usually work very well.

But I don't agree that all religions are equal or that it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you tolerate everyone else.


why not? what religion you are isn't even important. as long as you live a good life, and respect and love everybody unconditionally, then your place in heaven is secured. it's hard to live a such life, but each religion teaches you the path towards that kind of life. there is a difference between preaching and brainwashing. unfortunately, the less educated a person is, the more likely they are to be brainwashed. has happened in all religions, people listen to the brainwashers thinking that what they are saying is God's will.
once a teacher, who is a priest told me a story.
a man had three sons. he had a huge, beautiful diamond he had to leave to his sons. now, he couldn't cut the diamond in three because it would have lost its value. so he two exact replicas of the diamond and gave one each to his sons, telling them that they are the owners of the diamond. each son believed to have the true diamond, and each son had to treasure it and preserve its beauty.
the allegory is that the father represents God, and the three sons are the 'main' three monotheistic religions. each person who has the 'diamond' has to preserve it and take care of it, each son thought they had the real diamond.

sorry for my previous long post, but here's something else i want to add...

i went to a catholic primary school run by nuns who formed part of an order that was also missionary.
we had muslim children who were boarders at the school.
maybe that's where i got my first taste of how sweet tolerance and acceptance is.
my muslim friends used to sit with me during religion lessons. we were taught by nuns (female counterpart of priests in catholicism). they were encouraged to say their own prayers before meals and to respect their religious occasions.
the coolest thing i remember is when Salman and Zerish, two muslim kids in my class were smug about not having to do religion tests. My teacher, Sister Gemma, got them parts of the koran and a booklet on islam she got from the mosque to study and she took time to form a test for them.
now she could have tried to brainwash them and tell them that her religion was good, but being a mature person, she knew that teaching them islam was respectful to their culture and that islam was also a good thing to teach....so they did their tests with the rest of us. a good missionary does not seek to convert. a good missionary seeks to spread good practice, whatever the religion is.

fundamentalist? as in killing people for my religion? no thanks.
you can't tell me what it takes to be a good catholic.
the basis is this : love thy neighbour as thyself.
if you can't do THAT, then you aren't a good catholic.

Are you ready to ignore the fundamental of your religion?

Algeria's Islamic MPs are with you shams ...

They want to make it law (http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1721763459) to stop it. Can't have people freely deciding what if any religion to follow. Naaa can't have that!


Salam,

Wish the Happy New Year will clean your heart

Let me speak in your language that you understand well.
(This is a reply of this news only.)

Quote from a Christian Gentleman ,
Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it"Joseph Goebbels
Hope you know the person

Algeria: Islamic MPs ask for action against Christian missionaries

…………..For some years, the local media in Algeria have reported on the activities of a number of missionaries, particularly those from evangelical and Protestant churches, who have succeeded in converting entire Algerian families to Christianity, particularly those who come from the eastern area of Kabilia…………………..

Now they question what is the activities of a number of missionaries,

We need to know.

Can you highlight?

I know very well, you will not answer

I challenge you to give us the honest description of the
activities of a number of missionaries,

Otherwise wait for a period, I shall write here as I have given word to Mr Jeff.



It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59[/b]

They have every right to invite other in the way the religion they believe.

But must not be in fraudulent way.

Don’t chit the people, don’t take the advantage of poverty, hunger, sickness .
If there would be Jesus (Pbuh) he would surely fell ashamed of such idiotic act.

Arabs are here, have you gone through leaflets printed in Arabic calligraphy.
As I no at the moment, shall try to come after few hours.
:et me tell one example now,

You will find leaflets looks to read “ Allah Muhammad” but it is written " Allah Muhhaba” .

It is a Biblical verse from the chapter John.
Why you do it?[/B

Are you not confident about the beauty of your religion?

[quote] [I]Surat Al-A`raf, [b][color=blue]

(Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the foolish (i.e. don't punish them).
(7:199)

Shams do you remember this thread (http://englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31329) ... :rolleyes:

Hello Saudi ... :hyper:

Mr Jack,
You have brought another issue to mess the thread as usual.
What you know about Bangladesh?
What do you know about “Ahmadis”?
What is the contradiction with the Muslim live in Bangladesh?

You reserve the right to launch a religion with the concept of that God has four head , six eyes , ten hand and having good number of angels etc., etc., in the name of Jackism , there is no problem.
If people accept you well or let you go the astray.
But in the name of Christianity, can you launch?
Will the Christian well come you for your innovative new Christianity?
I go back to the context of the thread
and sorry, I hadn’t choice.
The reference was malicious and irrelevant here.

And really, how many of them are there? Millions? A few thousand at most.



Very good question.
Will you check this issue with your inquisitiveness and purity?
What is their budget?
How many TV channel they run?
How they present them?
How they propagate:
Have you any idea about print media?
Do you know the output of this billion billions Dollar?
Hope there is no problem to check for a truth seeker?

I have talked to Muslim converts to Christianity. They mention the love of Jesus and their changed lives and the joy they have found. None of them talks about money because none of them got any!.

Mr Jeff,

If some one convince with logic, beauty, way of solving problems in there live, peace and feel secure hereafter, he can embrace.
That would be real and true acceptance.
I have gone through with the interview of a converted Christian who has come from Islam.
Wish to know their logic.
Can you help me?

Are you ready to ignore the fundamental of your religion?
the fundamental of my religion is the ten commandments and loving my neighbour as myself. other than that, is superflouous. :)

Very good question.
Will you check this issue with your inquisitiveness and purity?
What is their budget?
How many TV channel they run?
How they present them?
How they propagate:
Have you any idea about print media?
Do you know the output of this billion billions Dollar?
Hope there is no problem to check for a truth seeker?

Lol! You have given me too big a homework assignment.

Do you have some ideas?

Mr Jeff,

If some one convince with logic, beauty, way of solving problems in there live, peace and feel secure hereafter, he can embrace.
That would be real and true acceptance.
I have gone through with the interview of a converted Christian who has come from Islam.
Wish to know their logic.
Can you help me?

I'm not sure what this means... "gone through with the interview" etc...

Can you explain more?

Mr Jeff,

If some one convince with logic, beauty, way of solving problems in there live, peace and feel secure hereafter, he can embrace.
That would be real and true acceptance.
I have gone through with the interview of a converted Christian who has come from Islam.
Wish to know their logic.
Can you help me?

You know, it's not just a question of "logic".

You are a convinced Muslim. So, for you the claims of Islam are logical.

For me, they do not appear completely logical; they seem to miss many important things. If we talk for weeks, we will probably still not agree! :p

Everyone who converts to Christianity, from whatever religion, does so because of Faith, which is logicAL but which is more than just logic.

"This fits my undertanding of life; it makes the world make sense; it makes MYSELF make sense. I encountered the Truth," is usually what a convert will say.

But at bottom, it's an encounter not with something, but with Someone. With Jesus Christ. And each person's encounter will be different. Some are drawn first by the intellect; others by beauty; others by vision or the experience of Christian love from others.

As the Pope said a few days ago,

"One can never get to know Christ only theoretically. One can master the knowledge of the Sacred Scriptures, without ever having met Him."

I remember talking to one young woman who had converted to Christianity from Islam despite her parents disapproval. "They tried so hard to get us (she converted with her sister) to change our minds. But they just don't understand: We cannot live without Jesus."

If you think we come to Christ because of money, I think you don't understand us well. Our minds are convinced, but our hearts are conquered by Someone greater than we are. No one gave me money to become a Christian or anybody else that I know.

There are more words from the Pope's address that are relevant to this issue of evangelization, so I will include them. Speaking to the Cardinals and others who work for him, the Holy Father said:

In this regard, I am pleased to recall the letter kindly sent to me last October 13 by 138 Muslim religious leaders, to testify to their common commitment to the promotion of peace in the world. With joy I responded by expressing my steadfast adherence to such noble intentions, and at the same time emphasizing the urgency of a common effort for the protection of the values of mutual respect, dialogue, and collaboration. Shared recognition of the existence of one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge of each one's behavior, constitutes the premise of common action in defense of the effective respect of the dignity of each human person, to build a more just and supportive society.

But does this desire for dialogue and collaboration at the same time mean, perhaps, that we can no longer transmit the message of Jesus Christ, no longer propose to men and to the world this call and the hope that is derived from it? Those who have recognized a great truth, those who have found a great joy must transmit it; they simply cannot keep it for themselves. Gifts so great are never intended for just one person.

In Jesus Christ there has arisen for us a great light, "the" great Light: we cannot put it under a bushel basket, but must raise it up upon the lamp stand, so that it may give light to all in the house (cf. Matthew 5:15).

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/184121?eng=y

the fundamental of my religion is the ten commandments and loving my neighbour as myself.other than that, is superflouous. :)

If that is the fundamental of your religion, you are to adore, you are to practice with the highest honesty and dedication . You should have the highest level of respect for the fundamentals of your religion to be religious.
Hope I am clear to you.

Lol! You have given me too big a homework assignment.

Do you have some ideas?

Dear Friend Jeff,
Yes , I can provide you.
I have requested you so you can check your self.

I'm not sure what this means... "gone through with the interview" etc...

Can you explain more?

I can quote the name of well known Christian reverted to Islam.

I can provide you their interview in the media too.
I wish to know, can you provide the name of such New Christian and there interview in media.
Make sure that is genuine and authentic.
Regards.

You will be happy to know that I tried googling "Bangladesh Christian Missionaries" and this is what I found:

U.S. Copts Association » Blog Archive » BANGLADESH: ANTI-CHRISTIAN ...
Subash Mondol, a supervisor of the Christian Life Bangladesh (CLB) “Jesus .... “If we got money from the evangelists or missionaries, we would not live in ...
www.copts.com/english1/index.php/2007/10/18/bangladesh-anti-christian-rumor-helps-fuel-attacks/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Christian Persecution Blog: Bangladesh: Anti-Christian Rumor Helps ...
Subash Mondol, a supervisor of the Christian Life Bangladesh (CLB) “Jesus Film” ... Muslim missionaries are helping to spread the conversion-for-pay rumor. ...
www.persecutionblog.com/2007/10/bangladesh-anti.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

FACTNet Message Board: Christian missionaries
this money is only 2%of the money spent in the name of god. ... christian mission and islamic missionaries has some good part ,they are at least helping ...
www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/752.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Are Christian missionary transgressing? - English Sabla
Are Christian missionary transgressing? Other Religions Sabla. ... Subash Mondol, a supervisor of the Christian Life Bangladesh CLB “Jesus Film” team in ...
www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=993737 - 150k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

You were third on the list! :)

Dear Jeff,

Do you have any idea about “Jehovah’s Witnesses” group though most of you treat them the out castled Christian?

Sure! :p

They have come to my door on many occasions and when I was young, I read their magazines Watchtower and Awake! because they left them for free.

You are right; Christians don't recogize them as Christian. Kind of like most Muslims don't recognize Alawites or Alevis or Druze or Ahmaddiya as Muslim...

Once my grandfather came home from an outing to find two of them in his livingroom. They had just walked in and sat down in his house while he was gone without asking permission! :p

But they are generally nice people, peaceful and friendly. They can be pushy, but if you tell them to go away, they go away. If they come to me, I just say that I am a Catholic and that's generally enough to get them to retreat! ;)

They started in the 1870s, which is enough proof for me that they are not what they claim to be. I can't understand people who think they have "suddenly discovered" the true meaning of the Bible after it has been around for two thousand years...

Well Dear Jeff,
So far I believe , Internet (Web pages ) can not be only authentic source to form your view.

Note # 1. Khagrachori district. Do you have really any clear idea about this area, about the people, religion, political conviction, economical status, transportation , cultural heritage and anthropological history?

Note#2. Cinku Marma , Tribal people from Marma tribes.

Please read ,
Two tribal people ambushed him and held him at gunpoint. Perceiving danger from a distance, Boiragi fled.

T he attackers threatened Marma, saying, “Your skull will be riddled with fusillades of bullets if you shout,” Mondol said. Four other tribal people joined them as they took Marma deeper into the jungle.

“If we kidnap you, shall we get in touch with your boss?” asked the attackers. When Marma replied that he didn’t know, they told him, “You became Christian and you got a huge amount of money for the conversion. Where is that money?”
“I became Christian willingly, and I did not get any money,” said Marma

Just close your eyes a take deep breath and concentrate in the issue.
What was important to the hijackers , Money or religion.

Click on the Link : http://www.copts.com/english1/index.php/2007/10/18/bangladesh-anti-christian-rumor-helps-fuel-attacks/

Well Dear Jeff,
So far I believe , Internet (Web pages ) can not be only authentic source to form your view.

Note # 1. Khagrachori district. Do you have really any clear idea about this area, about the people, religion, political conviction, economical status, transportation , cultural heritage and anthropological history?

Note#2. Cinku Marma , Tribal people from Marma tribes.

Please read ,


Just close your eyes a take deep breath and concentrate in the issue.
What was important to the hijackers , Money or religion.

Click on the Link : http://www.copts.com/english1/index.php/2007/10/18/bangladesh-anti-christian-rumor-helps-fuel-attacks/


No, I was only saying you made it into the Google top four with your thread, that's all. Congratulations! :)

Somehow I feel we are misunderstanding each other here and if it's my fault, I apologize.

Certainly I think trying to convert people with money is not only wrong, but foolish! They won't remain and you will get a bad reputation! :)

But sometimes, if you help people with money or food and you also tell them about your religion, others will see it as "buying conversion".

So we can find confusions or disagreements sometimes, but it is the heart and intention and the purity of these that matter.

Do you agree, respected Mr. Shamsery?

Well Dear Jeff,
So far I believe , Internet (Web pages ) can not be only authentic source to form your view.




Muslim Misinformation

Perhaps by this time you have formed an idea about me. Future will prove, whether your idea about me is correct or wrong.
I don’t care to speak the truth in personal live or in social live.
I personally deeply annoyed with this group “Muslim Tabligh Jamat”
They do missionary within the Muslim only (100%) don’t get involved with any non Muslims.
Every year they arrange an annual gathering just 3 kilometers away from my residence. That is the highest biggest gathering of Muslim , just after the pilgrim in Mekka.
This people narrate; analyze (Bayan in Arabic) the Qur’an and sunna.
They also travel around the world and target people are Muslim.
They never go for Da’wa (Invite) the Non Muslim.

“We do not have money to make a small room to worship God,”
From the long back , where there are Christian there is Church.
How much money needs to make room where they can pray.
Surly they live in a house and every house consist of few rooms.
Any one can allocate a room for their prayer.


Remember one comment and I bear the responsibility of my comment.

Islam and Muslim is not same thing.

Bearing name as Zahir, Zakir , Alamgir do not make one Muslim.

It something much more than that.
In fact , some time I think, How many Muslim are there?
Allah(swt) knowledge well.

From same link and I shall study other link when get time, dear, I am to work for my bread too.

Somehow I feel we are misunderstanding each other here and if it's my fault, I apologize.



Dear Jeff,
I shall write the story how they approach to Muslim , I remember , I am committed to you.
That’s really interesting and I appreciate.
This night I shall try to write down the story.
Muslim can learn from them but the fact we will never learn.
Friend do not apologize to friend.

Mr Jack,
You have brought another issue to mess the thread as usual.
What you know about Bangladesh?
What do you know about “Ahmadis”?
What is the contradiction with the Muslim live in Bangladesh?

You reserve the right to launch a religion with the concept of that God has four head , six eyes , ten hand and having good number of angels etc., etc., in the name of Jackism , there is no problem.
If people accept you well or let you go the astray.
But in the name of Christianity, can you launch?
Will the Christian well come you for your innovative new Christianity?
I go back to the context of the thread
and sorry, I hadn’t choice.
The reference was malicious and irrelevant here.

What ! You mean like taking the founder of Christianity and then rewriting history to make him a moslem ?

But they just don't understand: We cannot live without Jesus."
Is well known that Muslims live without Jesus
lol
This is the best argument they have to convert Asian workers here in Oman
Is appealing to many the figure of Jesus given by Christianity

What ! You mean like taking the founder of Christianity and then rewriting history to make him a moslem ?


Could you make your statement clear and simple ?

Jesus Christ was the founder of Christianity.

Islam came along and made him a muslim.

Do you see the similarity .. people taking another relgion and changing it into something else ?

Is well known that Muslims live without Jesus
lol
This is the best argument they have to convert Asian workers here in Oman
Is appealing to many the figure of Jesus given by Christianity

Ah, then you think that they meant they would drop dead on the floor without Him? :p

Is well known that Muslims live without Jesus
lol
This is the best argument they have to convert Asian workers here in Oman
Is appealing to many the figure of Jesus given by Christianity

Senorita,
Peace be on you,
I do not know what the wanted to mean , they can not live without Jesus(Pbuh)?
The key word is " Live".
If the mean teachings of Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) , I should say not bad and should request them to examine the teaching from Bible not from Qur'an.

We can not live as Muslim denying Jesus (Pbuh) as a messenger of Allah(swt)

Jesus Christ was the founder of Christianity.



Oh You are a nice gentleman,
I am impressed.
I understand now that Jesus (Pbuh) is the founder of Christianity.
(Note: You are good teacher , I am student of standard one, so use such simple language , if you use the language graduation level, honestly , I fail to understand.)

Now another question: What was his mother tongue ?

Islam came along and made him a muslim.

Do you see the similarity .. people taking another relgion and changing it into something else ?

From your stand, you cannot accept this theorem, I under stand.
At least Islam recognize him as one of the mightiest Messenger of Allah(swt).
Do you agree he was a messenger of Allah(Pbuh)
Second part,

You should accuse Jews too.
They don’t accept Jesus(Pbuh) as prophet and don’t accept your religion “Christianity “ is from God and from the religious point you view as a whole founder and follower not honest. ( I avoid the word imposter)
What is your opinion?

No Einstien, Jewish religious texts were in existence BEFORE Jesus Christ.

Islam came AFTER Jesus Christ and revised history.

Whether you believe that Jesus was a Messenger of Allah or not is completely irrelevant to me, since I don't believe in Islam.

Now, just as a religion that followed Christianity amended the revelation, the Ahmedias have done the same to Islam.

You're okay with the first but apparently not with the second.

What a surprise.

Shamsery come back home.

All is forgiven.

You're okay with the first but apparently not with the second.

What a surprise.

And as you are happy with the Christian revision of Judaism (or indeed Christianity :p), you are not happy with the subsequent divine revelation. A faith is a faith, it's not often negotiable.

I will convert to Islam for $10,000 (us).

For $100,000, I will fly to Dubai(all expenses paid) renounce my US citizenship and revert to Islam.

For $1,000,000, I will do all of the above and take off my shoes and slap pictures of GW Bush with it.

And as you are happy with the Christian revision of Judaism (or indeed Christianity :p), you are not happy with the subsequent divine revelation. A faith is a faith, it's not often negotiable.

No, my dear recent convert or revert or whatever..

My comment was addressed to Shamsery who was OUTRAGED that Ahmediyas could take Islamic doctrine and modify it to create a new religion.

I was just stopping by to point out the beam in his own eye, alluding the fact that Islam had done exactly the same to Jewish and Christian doctrine.

I'm not the one beating up on Ahmediyas of Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses or Christian Scientists.

I comfortable and secure with my faith, I find no need to Tom Tom my beliefs on this sabla.

Nor do I need to twist myself into a pretzel trying to prove deep scientific truths in the Bible unlike a certain member I shall refrain from naming.

Religious texts are books of revelation, not science textbooks.

Jesus Christ was the founder of Christianity.

Islam came along and made him a muslim.

Do you see the similarity .. people taking another relgion and changing it into something else ?

There was no Christianity at prophet Issa pbuh time. He was born as a muslim.

And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allâh unto you, confirming the Taurât ((Torah) which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed. But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad (peace be upon him)) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."

No Einstien, Jewish religious texts were in existence BEFORE Jesus Christ.

Islam came AFTER Jesus Christ and revised history.

Whether you believe that Jesus was a Messenger of Allah or not is completely irrelevant to me, since I don't believe in Islam.

Now, just as a religion that followed Christianity amended the revelation, the Ahmedias have done the same to Islam.

You're okay with the first but apparently not with the second.

What a surprise.

Does Jews acknowledge as Jesus (pbuh) ( As we believe he is a prophet only ) though you say your God incarnated as Jesus , Jesus=God.

Strait question and reply should strait in yes or no.
Don’t twist, please.

Islam came AFTER Jesus Christ and revised history.


Correction, Islam came since day one.

The laws were different but all God prophets came to spread the true message of Islam (i.e. to worship Allah alone without associating partners with him).

Then finally Allah sent Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: as a final messanger with the miracle of the holy Quran as a final book protected from abuse and corruption by Almighty Allah.

There is no strange to ignore the concept of Islam by the non-Islamic personality.

They will stick to there faith unless they don’t understand by themselves that corrigendum is necessary to their philosophical thought.
Base of the religion is idealism.
Are we not talking on the activates of Christian Missionaries?

Correction, Islam came since day one.



That you think.

Dear Sir Ice Tea,

Perhaps Mr Wuoldjab believe, Allah sent Adam on earth for preaching Non Islamic thought ( not for submission to Lord, came with the message do not surrender that is work for Anti peace etc,)

Jews don't consider Jesus as the Messiah.

Now you try to follow your own advice "Strait question and reply should strait in yes or no."

If Muslims can twist Christian/Jewish belief and call it Islam, why cannot the Ahmediyas do the same to Islam ?

Does Jews acknowledge as Jesus (pbuh) ( As we believe he is a prophet only ) though you say your God incarnated as Jesus , Jesus=God.

Strait question and reply should strait in yes or no.
Don’t twist, please.

I think this clarify things:


Those who claim that Jesus was God, hold that he was not a separate
god, but one and the same God incarnate. They draw support for this
belief from verse 30 of the Gospel according to John, chapter 10, in
which Jesus is reported to have said, “I and the Father are one.” Out
of context, this verse does imply Jesus’ divinity. However, when the
Jews accused him of claiming divinity, based on that statement, “Jesus
answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I said, Ye are
gods?”[15]-[16] He clarified for them, with a scriptural example well
known to them, that he was using the metaphorical language of the
prophets which should not be interpreted as ascribing divinity to
himself or to other human beings.

Further evidence is drawn from verses ten and eleven of
the Gospel according to John, chapter 14, where people asked Jesus to
show them the Father, and he was supposed to have said: “Do you not
believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that
I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who
dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and
the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works
themselves.”

These phrases would imply Jesus’ divinity, if the
remainder of the same Gospel is ignored. However, nine verses later,
in John 14:20, Jesus is also recorded as saying to his disciples, “In
that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in
you.” Thus, if Jesus’ statement “I am in the Father and the Father is
in me” means that he is God, then so were his disciples. This
symbolic statement means oneness of purpose and not oneness of
essence. The symbolic interpretation is further emphasized in John
17:20-21, wherein Jesus said, “20 I do not pray for these only, but
also for those who believe in me through their word, 21that they may
all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they
also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent
me.”[17]

Well, this doesn't clear anything up at all! :p

In the same Gospel passage your friend quotes, Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father.

Jesus says, "Philip you have spent all this time with me and you still don't know Who I Am? He Who has seen me has seen the Father. I and the Father are one."

Moses didn't "talk symbolically" like that. Neither did Mohammed.

And for a very good reason! :p

You're "Bible scholar" is not so hot, Ice Tea.

Jeff, that deserves a ROFL.

In the same Gospel passage your friend quotes, Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father.

Jesus says, "Philip you have spent all this time with me and you still don't know Who I Am? He Who has seen me has seen the Father. I and the Father are one."



Looks like you didn't read this part:

Jews accused him of claiming divinity, based on that statement, “Jesus
answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I said, Ye are
gods?”[15]-[16] He clarified for them, with a scriptural example well
known to them, that he was using the metaphorical language of the
prophets which should not be interpreted as ascribing divinity to
himself or to other human beings.

He is just giving them an example, explaining how they are focussed on language rather than on substance.

But if He had really meant to make it clear that He was just a man, He would not have said right afterwards,

"Truly, truly, I tell you: Before Abraham ever was, I AM."

The Jews knew very well what this meant and that is why they tried to stone Him.

Jesus is always taking God's Revealed Law and saying, "You have heard it said..." and then He says, "But *I* say to you" and then changing God's law on His own Authority.

No, the Jews of the time understood Him very well and the Jews of today do also. "You are making Yourself God" they said. And they still say so.

They are right!

"Truly, truly, I tell you: Before Abraham ever was, I AM."

I think he means God's knowledge of his Prophets.

Like for example Muslim believe that Jesus mentioned that Prophet Mohammed (Ahmed) will come after him.

Yes, isn't it interesting how when He is trying to convince people that He is not saying He is God, He says that He existed before Abraham? And He uses the present tense, not the past? And as the answer to the question, "Have you SEEN Abraham"? "Truly, truly.." He replies...

All the other mere Prophets talk that way too! NOT...

Score so far :

Jeff : 12
IT : 0
Sham : 0

Thanks for the vote of confidence! :)

But I wouldn't go that far, Wudjab.

They are operating without the light of Faith. I don't see that they are doing so badly. I think they are trying to follow the Truth. But they just don't see.

But if we are strengthening each other's faith, then I am happy!

There was no Christianity at prophet Issa pbuh time. He was born as a muslim.

No, Jesus was born a Jew.

No, Jesus was born a Jew.

Sssshhh! Apparently nobody likes that answer... :p

(I think they mean that good Jews back then were Muslims. Or something like that.)

Hey nobody took you up on your offer? I have some Confederate Dollars going begging if you can't find anything better! :D

Muslim = person who submits himself to Allah, the Almighty One God of Islamic monotheism.
Jew as a quick Wikipedia search would tell you = Goes back to the Old French 'giu' which comes from the Latin Iudaeus from the Greek Ἰουδαῖος. It means in short 'from the land of Judaea'.

The prophet Jesus PBUH was a Muslim, Moses PBUH was a Muslim, Abraham PBUH was a Muslim, Mohammed PBUH was a Muslim...Why? Because they all had one thing in common: they believed in one God and one God only. THAT is how the Islamic faith goes. And it's the reason why IceTea would post that 'Issa PBUH was born a Muslim'. It doesn't matter whether you're born a Jew or a Christian, you have a Muslim part of you that believes in one God and one God only. Again, that is the view of Islam.

Jesus's mother was a Jew. But we say Muslim by the definition Threadlike provided.

Muslim = person who submits himself to Allah, the Almighty One God of Islamic monotheism.
Jew as a quick Wikipedia search would tell you = Goes back to the Old French 'giu' which comes from the Latin Iudaeus from the Greek Ἰουδαῖος. It means in short 'from the land of Judaea'.

The prophet Jesus PBUH was a Muslim, Moses PBUH was a Muslim, Abraham PBUH was a Muslim, Mohammed PBUH was a Muslim...Why? Because they all had one thing in common: they believed in one God and one God only. THAT is how the Islamic faith goes. And it's the reason why IceTea would post that 'Issa PBUH was born a Muslim'. It doesn't matter whether you're born a Jew or a Christian, you have a Muslim part of you that believes in one God and one God only. Again, that is the view of Islam.

It is we believe that every human born with clean heart.
This we mean child born with total submission to only one true Allah.
This is our conviction, from our theological point of view.
If some one believe in incarnate of God in the form, shape of Rama, Krishna (Vedanta ) or as some believe that God (Pbuh) incarnated as Jesus, why they will accept that all the child born as Muslim?
I also don’t understand we are putting so much emphasis on this point.
Can or Does god incarnated as human?
Can be a good point of discussion.