Sorry guys but I think this issue has become so boring and the Palestinians themselves wants it to prolong since the people in charge are receiving donation left right and center . Since we are born we hear all Arab states including USA and Europe are donating money for Palestinians . WTF where is the money and why should we pay or USA or other countries should pay? havent we paid enough . maybe when they face the reality they will come to terms and live peacefully with their neighbors …

Wow In the newspapers Oman donated 30 million $ for the Palestinians ..Don’t you think we need it more !! just a thought ! :6:

'Need' it or just 'want' it?

Great ! need it I assume .. But the main topic is the paragraph above UmKhalid :)

If you solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you solve also most of the problems of the Arabs
See it like this

If you solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you solve also most of the problems of the Arabs
See it like this

What makes you think that to solve Israeli-Palestinian conflict you solve Most Arabs problems alone ? It will solve many problems of many nations not only Arabs ..

Yes indeed but I assume you're concerned about Oman :cute:
Just I think these money were given all cash directly to the government
Hope they check if it will really go for infrastructures, schools, hospitals

You're kidding, right ?

If the Palestinian problem is solved, all the problems with terrorism will magically vanish ?

Ah, Palestine!

The insoluble problem.

But I think it will be solved before very long.

These things always seem eternal. And then one day, pop! they are gone to everyone's surprise.

And the Peace, when it comes, will not solve everything. But it will solve many things.

what is this mythical country known as "palestine"? i hear about it in the news all of the time but cannot find it on a map.

If Omanis see they need money but are not getting it, I don't think this is because of the money spent to our brothers and sisters who need it. But because Oman's money sometimes gets into the hands of the wrong people.;)

But Al Hamdulillah, the Prophet :PBUH: prayed for us to always be satisfied with what we have: اللهم ارزقهم العفاف والكفاف والرضا

It is all because of polygamy!

Hajir- Ismail -Arab versus Sarah- Is’haq- Jews…that is how it started 3000 years ago!

can you say it is not polygamy?

Jews go by Judaism. Arabs go by ... Arabism?

What do Jewish Arabs go by then? :p

I met a bunch of them--kids--on tour in Washington one day, chattering away in Arabic.

DP, I don't think it's right that they "perpetuate" the problem to earn money. Most Palestinians are facing crushing poverty. Sure, there are many Palestinian problems of Palestinian making, like a pretty ineffective government. But that doesn't mean that ordinary people somehow deserve to suffer.

I haven't been to the occupied territories for quite a few years now, but even back then there were over 1 million people in Ghaza city. And Ghaza city is about the size of Ruwi, I kid you not. Whatever mistakes some of their leaders have made, like falling into the trap of making a violent response to provocation and throwing away the moral high ground, or the obscenity of suicide bombings against women and children, the Palestinian people have been wronged and oppressed.

They have a just cause and yes I do believe it's the responsibility not only of their Muslim (and Christian) brothers to help them, but of the international community that created the injustice to find a lasting solution and pay for it.

Mimosa:

Do you think a lasting solution could involve two states, side by side with refugees repatriated to the Arab state only (or mostly)?

Because I think that's the solution on order.

And I think it's the refugee problem that's the ultimate sticking point. It's the "Haifa is ours! Jaffa is ours!" crowd that makes a negotiated settlement seem so far away.

What do Jewish Arabs go by then? :p

I met a bunch of them--kids--on tour in Washington one day, chattering away in Arabic.

Haha, now we see the problem. It isn't Polygamy. We should calculate when the decsendants of Ismael and Ishaq met in the middle of the way and produced Arab-Jews. THAT is where this whole mess started :p


Back to Oman and the 30 million dollars. If you ask anyone working in the oil industry they would tell you that Oman is getting double the money it is expecting to get due to the rise in prices of Oil.

This explains why so many roads, bridges, resorts are being built.

I'm sure they are taking way more than 40 million dollars to do all this. We should be thankful. This will help in the rising of salaries Insha'Allah, but right now, it's the infrastucture that needs modifying before we start seeing the money in our hands.

And I'm happy we're not seeing the money in our hands. I wouldn't want to see a child running around in malls with 100 dollars in his hands, and two maids running behind him, which is something seen in other Guld countries.

So Al hamdulillah.

It was about to solve once, but they didn’t accept it and they lost the chance for ever !

Do I believe that all this money does go the infrastructures ? NO I DON’T

Jeff, yes I thnk that's probably the only viable solution, although those driven out in '48 etc who don't want to be "repatriated" unless it's to their actual homes, should have the option of serious compensation and naturalisation in their countries of residence i think.

DP, I don't think it's right that they "perpetuate" the problem to earn money. Most Palestinians are facing crushing poverty. Sure, there are many Palestinian problems of Palestinian making, like a pretty ineffective government. But that doesn't mean that ordinary people somehow deserve to suffer.

I haven't been to the occupied territories for quite a few years now, but even back then there were over 1 million people in Ghaza city. And Ghaza city is about the size of Ruwi, I kid you not. Whatever mistakes some of their leaders have made, like falling into the trap of making a violent response to provocation and throwing away the moral high ground, or the obscenity of suicide bombings against women and children, the Palestinian people have been wronged and oppressed.

They have a just cause and yes I do believe it's the responsibility not only of their Muslim (and Christian) brothers to help them, but of the international community that created the injustice to find a lasting solution and pay for it.

So they have breed themselves to unsustainable levels.

I'm with you then ...

Let men boss everything in public, and women boss their men in private, just like nature intended Let nature take it's course.

Jack, I hope that was a joke. Of course they could take the option chosen by your forebears and mine and just steal somebody else's big, sparsely populated country :p

Sorry guys but I think this issue has become so boring and the Palestinians themselves wants it to prolong since the people in charge are receiving donation left right and center . Since we are born we hear all Arab states including USA and Europe are donating money for Palestinians . WTF where is the money and why should we pay or USA or other countries should pay? havent we paid enough . maybe when they face the reality they will come to terms and live peacefully with their neighbors

I agree. I feel like we are all getting manipulated and extorted by this dumb, never ending conflict.

It is being used and abused by corrupt politicians and religous fanatics.

Sorry guys but I think this issue has become so boring and the Palestinians themselves wants it to prolong since the people in charge are receiving donation left right and center . Since we are born we hear all Arab states including USA and Europe are donating money for Palestinians . WTF where is the money and why should we pay or USA or other countries should pay? havent we paid enough . maybe when they face the reality they will come to terms and live peacefully with their neighbors …

Wow In the newspapers Oman donated 30 million $ for the Palestinians ..Don’t you think we need it more !! just a thought ! :6:

WHY Palestine Enough?

are you paying anything from your pocket?

If we muslims will not help the poor Palestinians who will?

if true what you have said that Oman donated 30 millions dollars (though I didn't hear about it) then well done Oman.

if you are a muslim then the Palestinian people are your brothers they are muslims too, well most of them are, and your duty as a muslim is to help them in their horrible ordeal against the vampires Jews, the best enemy of Islam.

Jack, I hope that was a joke. Of course they could take the option chosen by your forebears and mine and just steal somebody else's big, sparsely populated country :pWTF ... I'm 1/16 american indian ... I didn't steal sh!t. And I want my damn Casino TOO!

But let's get back to the topic ...

Welfare which has been what the Palis have had so far is a one way street.

Aid which should be what this is for should be a two way street. If it's not and the aid donors get more of the same ... I say stop the aid ... period!

And let nature take it's course ... an no that's not a joke.

There is absolutely no way to solve the Palestine. It has hit the point of no return a few years ago, and the only way I see it solving is if either the entire Palestinian or Israeli race is entirely eradicated.

That's very very doable, and it's not like anyone gives two sh*ts about the Palestenians.

If nature takes its course in this instance, then 1.5 million or more people crammed into a small space will go to ever more desperate measures to get their homes back. As a policy, yes, that's a joke.

*I* give two sh*ts about the Palestinians!

For me, they are simply a human tragedy.

I see people who care about them because they are just a religious and ethnic chesspiece. As a symbol of wrongs done to Islam or to the Arab nation they are important. Otherwise, they are just annoying.

And I see others who don't care about them because they are a continual reminder of the tragic flaw in the Zionist Dream.

And still others who don't care because they are unwanted refugees who burden the locals.

And still others who don't care because they think they are all terrorists.

But I care about them...

Because: there they are--miserable, dispossessed and-yes-friendless.

[QUOTE=clouds;989541]WHY Palestine Enough?
Well they left the country but few . the ones who remained got all the money and support .. what did they do ? Fight against each other ! how pathetic the 2 political side assassinating one other and pointing fingers to each other instead of gathering their people under one flag and look for a brighter future . it wont happen and did not happen yet but there is hope .
are you paying anything from your pocket?

Yes I did

If we Muslims will not help the poor Palestinians who will?
Let them help themselves first !:rolleyes:

if true what you have said that Oman donated 30 millions dollars (though I didn't hear about it) then well done Oman.
Yes its officially announced in the news papers .

if you are a Muslim then the Palestinian people are your brothers they are Muslims too, well most of them are, and your duty as a Muslim is to help them in their horrible ordeal against the vampires Jews, the best enemy of Islam.

I dont know my own neighbor and I guess my neighbor is not interested to know me .. lets us move forward and cut the Bull$hit about brothers and sisters .. In these times there is no such thing , otherwise there wont be Rich middle and poor income . There wont be beggars in our own Arab countries .. My personal opinion

DP, I don't think it's right that they "perpetuate" the problem to earn money. Most Palestinians are facing crushing poverty. Sure, there are many Palestinian problems of Palestinian making, like a pretty ineffective government. But that doesn't mean that ordinary people somehow deserve to suffer.
They have a just cause and yes I do believe it's the responsibility not only of their Muslim (and Christian) brothers to help them, but of the international community that created the injustice to find a lasting solution and pay for it.

I know Mimosa , the question is where is the money ? over 60 years money was sent in the cause of freeing Palestine and I just wonder where does the money go ? It is said " you got to change for others to be able to help you " Unless they have dum leaders who care nothing but their sects and posts and blubber their mouth on TV .

what is this mythical country known as "palestine"? i hear about it in the news all of the time but cannot find it on a map.


Yes its not in the map anymore , How ironic 70 years ago it was and Our grandfathers never saw it at then a country called Israel ! now the tables have turned :dev:

If nature takes its course in this instance, then 1.5 million or more people crammed into a small space will go to ever more desperate measures to get their homes back. As a policy, yes, that's a joke.
Stats show the more aid to Pali violent acts have gone up.

Stats show the less aid to Pali violent acts have gone down.

That tells me suicide and other violent acts have a direct correlation to amount of aid.

Put simply ... rockets cost money. Suicide bombers aren't free.

Infitada cost hard $ ...

That's not very scientific Johnny; getting a desperate administration to make a short term clamp down on armed groups by starving them of money is certainly a tactic, but it is not a strategy: There is no long-term causal link between making people better off and making them more violent...although it would be an interesting explanation of US foreign policy :p

The following graph illustrates the correlation between homicides and donor aid:

http://www.camera.org/images_user/Palestinian%20homicides%20and%20aid.JPG

The correlation between aid and homicides becomes even stronger when comparing the amount of aid given in one year to the number of homicides occurring in the following year, as shown below in Graph 2:

http://www.camera.org/images_user/One%20year%20lag%20homicides.JPG

These statistics do not mean that foreign aid causes violence; but they do raise questions about the effectiveness of using foreign donations to promote moderation and combat terrorism. The graphs reveal that the increased budgetary aid to the Palestinian government after the start of the second Intifada in September 2000 was accompanied by a corresponding increase in the number of Palestinian homicides in 2001 and 2002. After mid-2002, Israeli counter-measures against suicide bombers began to reduce the number of Israeli dead. By August 2003, the first portion of the security barrier was in place, leading to a rapid decline in homicides in 2003. While Israeli counter-measures reduced the number of Israeli victims, factional violence increased the number of Palestinian victims. Thecorrelation between increased aid and violence thus continued

...

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1411

That's not very scientific Johnny; getting a desperate administration to make a short term clamp down on armed groups by starving them of money is certainly a tactic, but it is not a strategy: There is no long-term causal link between making people better off and making them more violent...although it would be an interesting explanation of US foreign policy :p

When dealing with this long term stategy (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm) ... I beg to differ.

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

The question was about helping Palestinian people, not about helping one particular movement. OK, I'm bored now, never mind.

On the other hand Israel has to comply with the UN resolutions to help keep the peace . And not to prolong and buy time which us Human can not tolerate being unjust to . bear in mind that there are many things that have led the Palestinian to retaliate Blindly likewise the Israeli’s . The line has to be drawn , I firmly believe if the strongest live by example the weak will do the same .
The money which was donated should go straight into the infrastructure of What is left of Palestine and the Palestinian lands 1967 .
Interesting to read your article Wudjub and Jack and I can see Mimosa’s point as well . But the other party ( Israel ) are not innocent as they portray themselves to be .
Both are hard headed the Israeli Government and the Palestinian sects and who pays the price !! The citizen from both sides ..

Mimosa:

I think that's an important distinction.

If money is being ill-spent by the PLO or by the Palestinian authority or by Hamas, let's look at ways of getting resources to the people in other ways.

If nothing else, we should be able to BRIBE them to do that.

This is what donors have to do in places like the Sudan in order to get food and medicine to those who need it, for example.

Rightly said Jeff .. yet I wouldn’t like to do the comparison between the PLO leaders and Sudanese as much I would like to focus on the similarity of the donation in Both Palestine and Somalia … if you know what I mean .

Dark Project:

I'm not sure the resolutions are particularly important. They are either General Assembly resolutions which are unenforceable or else the language was deliberately made ambiguous so that everyone would agree (on the point of "withdrawal from occupied land", for example.)

I agree both sides are hard-headed. But the shape of a settlement is obvious to everyone:

1. Refugees cannot overwhelm the Jewish state. Just or unjust, Israel will not destroy itself. To ask that is to say that peace is not worth it.

2. But refugee problems must be solved. So: Refugees will return to the new Palestinian state; be compensated for their losses; a few will return to Israel and their homes; others will be given citizenship in Arab countries; others in the West.

3. The borders of '67 will not be returned to. There will be adjustments. But there must be an equal amount of territory given to the Palestinian state.

4. Both sides must be able to say: "Jerusalem is ours!" That means that Arab neighborhoods must go to Palestine and Jewish neighborhoods to Israel.

5. There must be a compromise on the Temple Mount. Either some kind of joint sovereignty must be worked out or special rights with guarantees or something. Bottom line: Arabs must have sovereignty over their building on the top and Jews must have sovereignty over the Wailing Wall

6. There must be a negotiated settlement about water use and aquifers

7. There must be mutual recognition of states, though the formula might be modified to take hotheads into account.

We are really not so very far from getting this as people think. All we need is the right people and the right moment. It won't be so very long in coming as people suppose.

We agree in few points as individuals Jeff , but the issue is that Israel is a State now and no one can deny it as you said . Furthermore I dont think the Refugees will return to the new Palestinian state , they have been away for many decades and they have lived and got different nationalities and settled in the countries they reside as we all know .
As for compensation for their losses I think the whole world have paid them enough money to start a new country with hope !

As for The borders of '67 will not be returned ... isn’t it the main issue ?? Why wouldn’t they give it back !! Why they are in Golan and parts of Lebanon is in it provocative enough to show the settlers that they don’t want peace really ?

As for the Temple Mount Muslims wouldn’t mind to share it with the Jews .. Its their sovereignty and identity that they seek with bad administration sadly !

I'm not saying there aren't two sides to the story. I'm just saying that those things are part of the solution practically.

Before 1967, what you had were cease fire lines, not borders. They were never regarded as permanent by either side.

Since then, there are areas in which Israelis have built what amount to cities and they have lived there for decades. They aren't really 'settlements' at all any more.

And this was recognized by the Taba negotiators on both sides. As a practical matter, Israel cannot and will not give whole cities to the Palestinians. So territory must be traded for territory. And the exchange must be equivalent. I don't think this will be a big problem.

The Temple Mount is the Gordian Knot. Apart from refugees, it's the central issue. Both sides have to be able to say they got sovereignty. At a minimum, the Jews will insist on sovereignty over the Wailing Wall, the most sacred place of worship for them in the whole world. They cannot give it up. Any Israeli government that tried to do it would fall.

And the Palestinians cannot give up the Haram es-Sharif. So, to find peace, you have to find a formula that both sides can accept. It is doable, but difficult. All that's necessary is for both sides to understand each other and understand what is possible for the other AND to really want to find a solution.

Since Jews for the most part don't worship on the Temple Mount and Muslims don't worship at the Wailing Wall, it shouldn't be impossible to start the notion of divided sovereignty here.

I think you are being very reasonable about all this and that more and more behind the scenes the numbers of Arabs and Jews that are willing to do this is increasing.

The wound of Zionism is still so new and fresh feeling to Arabs that I don't really blame them for not coming to terms with the fact that Israel is here to stay. We in the West tend to forget how new it all is and how there are still people alive today who remember a time when there was no Israel.

If you are interested, Dark Project, it might be worthwhile to look at what happened during the negotiations at Taba. These negotiations never were finalized because Barak lost the Prime Minister's position after the Second Intifada began. But here is what the Palestinian and Israeli negotiators agree. Many people don't realize HOW CLOSE things came to an agreement:

Both sides accepted in principle the Clinton suggestion of having a Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighborhoods and an Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Both sides favored the idea of an open city. The Israeli side accepted that Jerusalem would be the capital of the two states: Yerushalaim, capital of Israel and Al-Quds, capital of the state of Palestine. Both parties accepted the principle of respective control over each side's respective holy sites. Israel's sovereignty over the Western Wall would be recognized although there remained a dispute regarding the delineation of the area covered by the Western Wall and especially the link to what is referred to in Clinton's ideas as the space sacred to Judaism of which it is part. Both sides agreed that the question of Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount has not been resolved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit

We were thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to settling the whole thing had history just taken a slightly different turn.

Thanks for the information Jeff .. :) will read and elaborate later .

What I find sad also is that Bethlehem had a large Christian community and many are leaving due to fear. They are Palestinians also.

Ok jeff ,

Its quite a intense document to read but here , These are the points that caught my attention . Now if both parties agreed why wasnt it implemented ? Why Israel dont abide with the UN Resolutions .. Now others may say the palastinians have to abide .. But how can they do such thing and its not a State ? Isreal is ..

Territory
The two sides agreed that in accordance with the UN Security Council Resolution 242, the June 4, 1967 lines would be the basis for the borders between Israel and the state of Palestine.
[edit] Jerusalem
Both sides accepted in principle the Clinton suggestion of having a Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighborhoods and an Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Both sides favored the idea of an open city. The Israeli side accepted that Jerusalem would be the capital of the two states: Yerushalaim, capital of Israel and Al-Quds, capital of the state of Palestine. Both parties accepted the principle of respective control over each side's respective holy sites
Refugees
Non-papers were exchanged which were regarded as a good basis for the talks. Both sides agreed to adopt the principles and references which could facilitate the adoption of an agreement. Both sides suggested, as a basis, that the parties should agree that a just settlement of the refugee problem in accordance with the UN Security Council Resolution 242 must lead to the implementation of UN General Assembly Resolution 194. The Israeli side expressed its understanding that the wish to return shall be implemented within the framework of one of the following programs:
A. Return and repatriation 1. to Israel 2. to Israeli swapped territory 3. to the Palestinian state.
B. Rehabilitation and relocation 1. Rehabilitation in host country. 2. Relocation to third country.
Both sides agreed that UNRWA should be phased out in accordance with an agreed timetable of five years, as a targeted period

A Palestinian begger approached me today and asked for money, I told her I will pray for her instead and said "May God let Palestinians have their own stable state". She smiled, then I continued "So all of you guys can go back there". She frowned!

I think Palestinians who are under Israel umbrella are living a good life. (hint hint)

Off topics have been deleted

I think Palestinians who are under Israel umbrella are living a good life. (hint hint)

I remember when the possibility of giving a Palestinian state Israeli land as part of a deal for independence was discussed, the Arab citizens of Israel living there were outraged:

Prominent Israeli geographers and demographers like Della Pergola have proposed that Israel give the Palestinian state the so-called triangle around the Arab town of Umm-el-Fahm, a center of the Islamic movement in Israel, which is adjacent to the West Bank. This would take about 250,000 Arabs out of the demographic equation. Even Henry Kissinger joined the bandwagon in a December 2004 article.

The Umm-el-Fahm residents reject the idea. "It's unacceptable to us," says Mayor Hashim Mahajna. "We are Israeli citizens and would like to remain as we are. These ideas are racist, illegal and extremist."

http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/sovereign/citizen/2005/0516identity.htm

Dark Project:

Resolution 242 is ambiguous, and it was designed to be ambiguous.

If the only way to read 242 was: "Israel must immediately return to the Green Line no matter what" then the US would have vetoed it.

To say that the Green Line is to be "the basis" of peace is not to say that the parties must simply return to the Green Line. It just means that the Green Line is the foundation for negotiations.

And of course, everyone agrees with that.

But the Resolution was DELIBERATELY written to be acceptable to both sides.

So, it says: "withdrawal from occupied territories", but it doesn't say "all" occupied territories and it doesn't take sides in the dispute over what "occupied territories" are.

The West Bank and Jerusalem were claimed by and administered by Jordan prior to 1967. Few nations recognized that claim. But they were never part of a Palestinian state. And Jordan has now renounced them.

So, the Palestinians can claim with justice that those territories are occupied because they are the basis for a Palestinian state, are populated by Palestinians overwhelmingly, etc, and therefore natural justice requires their evacuation.

The Israelis can respond that the status of the territories is "Undetermined" not "Occupied" and that 242 requires the return of occupied territories anyway only in the context of a broader peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

As far as the Taba negotiations, they were an unofficial exploration of priniciples which neither side was committed to. Both the PA and the Israeli government had elements that had problems with the solution.

But even Israeli doves who badly wanted a settlement decided that peace was impossible at present when the Second Intifada broke out. "Nobody sincere to negotiate with" was their reaction.

But in the end, the Intifada didn't work. But neither does the Occupation work.

So both sides need a settlement. And that's why we will get one eventually and it will be something like the Taba agreement.